Andrea Rossi: Electricity from E-Cat Possible Within a Year

In the recent interview that Andrea Rossi gave on the Tom and Doug radio show, Andrea Rossi revealed that on November 11th he had made an important breakthrough with regards to the production of electrical power from the energy catalyzer.

Rossi said in the interview that production of electricity from the E-Cat has always been for him a major target and that “it will take, until the last week I said a couple of years, but today I can say one year because today, just today, (I don’t know because today is 11.11.11) we have resolved a very big problem which has made very short the time remaining to be able to produce also electric power, beside heat and cool with these apparatuses.”

Rossi provided no details about the nature of the breakthrough, but being able to make electricity efficiently would add a whole new dimension of usefulness of his invention, and would bring ever closer the dream that many people have of being able to have a complete power plant in ones home — heat, cooling, and electrical power from one unit. The revolutionary nature of such a technology is difficult to overstate, and if this could be achieved within a year, we could be looking at a very different world in the near future.

  • PersonFromPorlock

    “Rossi provided no details about the nature of the breakthrough….”

    Quintessential Rossi. He may have invented fire and the wheel combined, but it comes off as a Dogbert scam.

  • Well.. In a few months hopefully some customers will reveal themselves.. That would prove that everything that Rossi says can be taken as the truth. Let’s just be patient.

  • Sanjeev

    Sven Kullander approves Rossi:

    [See the comment by Hampus Ericsson]

  • I can’t believe it. He found out how to make electricity efficiently from dry steam.
    This whole thing stinks more and more.

    • Jim

      Gosh, don’t go to a coal power plant, then. They do the same thing there.

  • Robert Mockan

    The only breakthrough worth making, from an engineering viewpoint, would be having the E-Cat fuel generate thermal power from ambient temperature to the maximum temperature the fuel can withstand before the catalytic activity is destroyed. The publicized design shuts down if the temperature goes below the Curie temperature of the metal used. This has also been a characteristic of other gas loaded systems using other metals. It adds much complexity to the primary and secondary coolant loops when they are constrained to operate within a tight elevated temperature tolerance.

    • Kim

      Will software be able to satisfy the tight
      temperature tolerance. or is the system to
      unstable? Could this be the ultimate demise
      of a system which we really do not understand.
      Can it be managed?


      • Kim

        Also if we are dealing with a curie temperature affect, I can now understand why Andrea Rossi maybe acting and choosing the paths he has while trying market his

        We have not a stable system.

        Even more reason to involve the brightest
        minds possible, its time to be honest and
        dig in and solve problems. This means
        reveal the catalyst to everyone and lets
        solve the stability problem.

        Not for money or Ego. Hey for mankind…

        What a concept


        • Robert Mockan

          Another problem is given the low temperature difference of the source (reactor) and condenser (and for home use it will need to use air cooling), practical thermal energy conversion to electricity will be in the 5% range. Given the parasitic losses of auxiliary equipment (fans, pumps, motors) available power for home use from the system is unlikely to be above 3%, because some of the electricity out will need to power that equipment. This is why “self sustaining” mode of the reactor is essential for practical use of this kind of heat source. Any high grade energy from the reactor returned to the reactor to force the reaction, and otherwise operate the overall system, would require thermal power of 100/3 times generated electrical power returned to the system to break even. No matter how inexpensive the fuel (nuclear active catalyst)can be made, the “system” cost, if not “self sustaining”, would have serious issues being competitive with other electrical power generating systems even when they have higher fuel costs. Rossi has gone part way to making the nickel hydrogen energy source practical, by increasing the NAC (nuclear active catalyst) energy generated per mass of NAC used. But work needs be done increasing power out in self-sustaining mode, and perhaps changing to some other NAC that can operate at much higher temperatures before lattice integrity is destroyed, and ideally can operate to lower temperatures before the reaction shuts down, (to simply the condenser design).
          I notice many comments about applying efficient heat engines. Unfortunately all heat engines obey the same physics, and the low percentage conversion of thermal power to electrical power is an engineering issue, documented in optimized waste heat generator systems, that work with hot source and cold condenser temperature differences similar to what the E-Cat produces. A 3% conversion to useable electrical power for the house, means that the reactor thermal power out, that is Tp, for any desired electrical power Ep, is Tp = Ep*100/3. If the house Ep = 3000 watts, then Tp=3000*100/3, or 100,000 thermal watts. Rossi has said he will be selling E-Cats that generate thermal power for at least a few hundred dollars per kilowatt. You can see immediately that his marketing plan for home electric power units is simply not practical if he is going to charge hundreds of dollars per kilowatt of thermal powers. An E-Cat at $5000 US for 10 thermal kilowatts, is $500 per thermal kilowatt. In the example given that would mean the E-Cat thermal power heat source alone (not the whole power system, just the heat source), would cost $C=$500*100KWt=$50,000 USD. Add to that the heat engine, generator, controls, auxiliary equipment, and so on, and one is looking at a total cost in excess of $100,000 USD for an E-Cat based electrical power generating system that can power a house. You can draw your own conclusion about the Rossi marketing plan being feasible. My own opinion is that costs need to be reduced to at least 1/10 of what has been publicized, for the nickel hydrogen energy source to be competitive with other energy sources. This was also essentially the problem 20 years ago with the original Piantelli energy system using nickel and hydrogen. Back then, given the lower cost of fossil fuels, it was even less practical.
          Many issues remain to be resolved with marketing a commercial product based on the nickel and hydrogen energy reaction. I wish Rossi the best, but the numbers do not look very promising.
          Another application is for boats.
          Marine applications would be a little less expensive because one has cooling water from the ocean that reduces cost of the condenser heat exchanger, but the 3% available power would still apply from the reactor source. The only way I can see to make this all work is to provide cheap fuel, used with inexpensive reactor designs. When the thermal power source gets down to $50 per thermal kilowatt, then this will become a primary energy source, in my opinion.

          • Blah

            Interesting analysis. Rossi is making a serious mistake attempting to make consumer products. A technology this new – assuming it works as promised – will take a long time to get right at any scale.

            Selling 1MW units is reasonable, but I don’t think it makes sense to sell as household appliances. As much as I’d love to power my house with one it’ll take years of proven service before I’d buy one (or be allowed to do so by the feds). Better to get the company going selling to big customers while incrementally improving the technology.

  • Dave

    What a joke. You can get electricity from almost any heat source using a Sterling Engine and a generator. A real engineer could get electricity from a working E-Cat(not that it actually works) in a hour, so why is going to take Rossi a year to do it?

    • EnergyGuy

      Dave …. if you deserve a name, that is … you’re a joke for saying that the E-Cat’s a joke!! If I were you, I’d read the details about the E-Cat’s performance a bit more before the ad hominem attacks.

      • Dave

        EnergyGuy people like you are making me lose faith in humanity. You lack the critical thinking skills to see that based on the evidence we have the E-Cat is almost certainly a hoax.

        If it really worked Rossi would have allowed a 3rd party to verify that it works using their own instruments. He wouldn’t have secret “customers” either. If his E-Cat demonstrations really worked they would have released several times more steam than they did.

        None of this has anything to do with my post. I was *assuming* the E-Cats really work when I said it was a joke that it would take Rossi a year to get electricity from it. That’s just another example of why Rossi is a fraud.

    • Cliff Bradley

      I think the problem might not be getting electrictity from the heat because that’s easy to solve. I think the problem might be how to get it into a compact, cost effective package that can be mass produced.

      People keep thinking that Rossi is like a scientist that publishes his work to be replicated all around the world. Maybe they need to start thinking of him like Edison. Edison invented stuff which he turned into working products. He became very rich because of the sale of those products. He did not worry too much about the physics that drove those products, but rather if it worked and worked well.

      • Robert Horning

        No, the problem here is that there is yet another fantastic claim being made when it seems like the best move is to simply let the world have this device.

        Either flood the world with these things, or shut up. The more that Rossi keeps delaying the whole concept, the more it seems like a scam.

        An efficient or compact electricity generator is something that ought to be an “aftermarket” device, not something more directly tied into the product. Unless Rossi is this super genius that knows how to literally do everything at once, he needs to leave stuff like this to the specialists.

        Other fusion researchers are only aiming at adapting their devices to existing turbines or related devices that already convert steam energy to electricity in a very efficient manner. Some plans that I’ve seen, presuming that practical fusion can be developed in any form (not just the E-Cat) have suggested simply replacing the boiler with the fusion reactor. There certainly is no reason the 1 MW plant needs anything else any fancier…. unless this is a scam anyway and doesn’t matter.

        Talk of direct electrical generation devices moves this concept literally to the supernatural. The extreme skepticism is very well founded on basic engineering, much less any science.

        • Cliff Bradley

          “Other fusion researchers” says it all. He’s an inventor, not a researcher.

          Just let the world have this device? Are you kidding? Have you ever put your time, fortune and reputation into something? You want Rossi to just give it away? You sound like an academic who lives in some kind of ivory tower. Try and do something like Rossi has and then tell me you’ll be willing to give it away.

          After market? Hanging devices on the side of it? Just replace the boiler with the fusion reactor? Ok, do you have any idea how high the temperature that commercial steam boilers that feed turbines is? It’s easy to say these things, but until you have the whole package put together, it just simply won’t work for most people.

          Early adopters will certainly hang electical generators off the side of it, but if you want to mass market it, you must have a complete package.

          • Robert Horning

            I am not asking Rossi to give this device away, and this really isn’t the place to describe the economic situation that Rossi might be in, presuming this device even works at all (which I still have huge reservations about).

            No, after-market is not simply “hanging stuff on the side”, but rather devices that are integrated into the overall package by a third party. This is done all of the time in the automobile industry where aftermarket companies offer all kind of parts ranging from fancy decorations to new parts on engines, replacement sound systems, and much more that impact the vehicle. I see this as nothing different.

            From a practical business perspective, Rossi should do what it is that he does best: He claims that he is producing a fusion reactor and he should try to make that device as best as he can. Getting distracted by other things is going to kill his business.

        • Rockyspoon

          The “best move” would be to your advantage, but not to Rossi’s. Hence, you’re wrong–why don’t you go out and build your own unit and give it to the world? Oh, you say all that time and money wouldn’t be worth the effort? That you’d get nothing in return? Now you’re in Rossi’s shoes. Funny how the perspective changes 180 degrees when one looks at reality.

          • Robert Horning

            No, I’m not thinking strictly for myself. I’ve started and been involved with several start-up companies over the years, and my experience in those endeavors is that you can easily lose focus on your core business if you aren’t careful. When that happens, very likely your business simply flops and simply stops doing anything at all other than dealing with bankruptcy judges… or the company simply falls apart and stops making things altogether.

            If I was in Rossi’s shoes, I would make the device and then try to see what others could do with the device. Simply organizing the production of the E-Cat device itself is going to be a huge struggle and for an ordinary person would be plenty to keep busy. I also guarantee that Rossi could not possibly think of all of the applications that this device could be put forward into making, and he shouldn’t even try.

            Rossi certainly should get his 10%/1% (or whatever royalty-commission he wants off of these things), but it is solidly in his best interest from a financial position to get these things out into the public and not be playing these kind of games…. unless it really is a scam and he has nothing which actually works. If that is the case, he needs to perpetuate the scam even further… where the goal is to keep people from the device as long as possible since it never really works in the first place.

    • Sanjeev

      For the layman:

      It’s not a joke, given the properties of Ecat. It takes 1 watt of electricity to produce 6 watts of heat in current Ecat model. Assuming the heat to electricity generator is 30% efficient, it would make 2 watts of electricity for every 1 watt fed in.

      This is awesome as far as scientific discovery is concerned, but it will not generate any business because it will be very costly and fancy way to make electricity. In other words its not cost effective.

      Now factor in the other stuff like steam temperature and pressures needed to drive a steam turbine. Ecat is not even close. At most, at this time, you can make a student science fair project to demo electricity production from Ecat.

      I can understand that common folk do not know the difficulties involved and think heat->electricity is a simple affair. So when someone says it may take years, it automatically means a scam for them.

      It will need a breakthrough, and lot of R&D and a big company with a big fat budget to do it in one year’s time. Else indefinite time. However Ecat is excellent for heating stuff cheaply at this time. (If it works i.e.)

    • I am an engineer, there are lot of ways to change heat into energy. But there are also many ways to do it in different applications that produce the most energy from the same heat source. Plus, once you have the right combination, there are other factors like safety, and cost, and final design of the the product, marketing, finding suppliers, etc…. 12 to 18 months is a pretty standard big budget lead time to deliver on the original idea. Rossi may or may not be honest with us, but his practices are that of an entrepreneur, not of a lab rat. Everyone is right until proven wrong in this country, which Rossi and the skeptics at this point are both right. Until a skeptic reveals the truth, or Rossi reinvents the world economy, we will all have to wait for the outcome.

      • Robert Horning

        I am an engineer as well, and this is not how you do engineering either. In the engineering world, we don’t talk about pseudo science, instead we talk about vaporware. What is being touted here is more the vaporware that claims to be everything to everybody but in reality doesn’t even exist yet except in people’s imaginations. Perhaps there is a goal and a desire to get there, but so far it doesn’t really exist.

        I’ve had several supervisors and corporate CEOs that do what I call specification by press release. That is where the design of the product is made through the press releases being done by the marketing guys or a CEO/manager who is generally clueless about actually building it, where the mantra is “if we announce it, it will be built”. Sometimes that actually works, but most of the time it doesn’t. Sometimes a researcher might come up with something really cool looking, but making it into a practical device is considerably harder.

        That is precisely what I’m seeing here, and I’m more skeptical until I see an actual device working. That is even presuming the device technology itself is not even under question here, as the E-Cat most certainly is. Usually you aren’t debating about an engineering problem along with even trying to explain the pure physics of the device itself.

        • Rockyspoon

          I don’t think you’re an engineer at all, Robert, for you claim to know things you cannot know. An engineer sticks to the facts but you have gone off the deep end stating this phenomena doesn’t exist. Have you performed a demonstration that shows without a doubt that Rossi’s E-Cat is based on some other technology–hence, it is absolutely NOT what he claims? I seriously doubt it. And you’d have to go to that extent to be honest in your evaluation. All you do is pronounce things you do not know. As a fellow engineer, I call BS on your pronouncements–you are saying things for which you have no substantiation, no proof–you complain about Rossi’s secrecy but yours is no different. Please keep your fantastical comments out of the discussion as you make engineers look like fools.

          • Robert Horning

            I have seen so many products over the years that really don’t ever make it to market but are announced via press releases and then never happen that I can’t even begin. Heck, I’ve been involved with some of them in terms of being the engineer in charge trying to get myself and my team going on putting the device or product into development and making it practical.

            Yes, I don’t know what is going on, but this is simply “don’t know”. I do see scientists complaining about the basic science here, and that certainly gives me pause to consider this may be more fraud than actual engineering too. There is a history of people putting out perpetual motion machines and calling those real products, and this device certainly seems from the outside as yet another kind of machine just like that.

            You can be skeptical about a device, and engineers sometimes can’t take something from a laboratory and make it into a practical device. The fantastic comments are that this device actually can work…. so please put this into perspective.

      • Jim

        noone is right until proven wrong, in no country of the world. i wanna live in the country of right wrongs to claim that i have superpowers and everyyone should follow me. how should that work logically? you are wrong or at least unapproved until proven right. this ain’t a theory but a hypothesis we are talking about until a majority accepts its rightfulness. and i thought engineering is a part of science somehow. you prove that is wrong

  • londo

    Why do so many people presume to know what exact problem Rossi wanted solve to attach a heat engine to the ecat. It’s so narrowminded.
    The Ecat has yet to be proven but if it works, it’s quite possible it poses its own set of problems to an efficient heat engine. Be patient or provide arguments.

  • It w’d be via an improved Sterling machine

  • Via an improved Sterling machine ?

  • arian
    • So apparently electricity through the reverse induction of a coil heater. Not a bad way, certainly conventional. At least it is an indirect process that won’t subtract from a sustainable flow of water vapor. It also, would allow the outter copper coil to avoid oxidation and corrosion.

  • sapain

    use thermoelectric generators (TEG), ideally working temp.

  • Andreiko

    Hebben de reactanten al zelf iets uitgevonden en het in de markt gebracht ? Nee?, Oordeel dan niet over Rossi zijn handel en wandel in deze.

  • IMHO, it is possible Mr. Rossi found a way to sustain a plasma in some creative way and has now found, due to the nature of this ‘invention’ how to substract electricity in a sane way.

    Though i admit, there are a couple of highly-visible heat-harvesting technologies on the market which could well fit with this e-cat device. Since they first build up heat then, only then, the conversion starts. As mentioned before, Sterling engines can be made quite efficient by now.

    My hopes are still, but more faintly then before.

    One good reason for a one year delay is converting prototype tech into production tech, boosting efficiency etc. That would be real world thinking indeed.

    • Robert Horning

      I have never seen Andrea Rossi claim to have developed a “hot fusion” device that involves a plasma which induces fusion. What he is claiming is some sort of exotic chemistry and metallurgy which uses electron pressure in some manner on the atomic level (aka “low-energy nuclear fusion”) to induce a fusion reaction.

      If you want to see a rather inexpensive “hot fusion” device, look up the Farnsworth-Hirsch Fusor, and note there are some problems with taking that real fusion that is going on and ramping that up to something which can be used as a practical source of power. That has been the problem for all fusion power research for the past sixty years or more after the scientists who worked on the Manhattan project have tried to come up with practical devices that might be able to generate fusion power on a local scale.

      There are other approaches to generating fusion power, so don’t put all of your hope onto Rossi. There still might be something here, but it is important to know what he is doing specifically.

  • bachcole

    I assumed that Rossi meant that he was getting close to going from Ni + H -> Cu to electricity, instead of heat.

    • No electrical power plants produce electricity. They product Heat, then change it to electricity through one form or another of a generator. Coal, Nuclear, Oil all superheat water, which turns a turbine, which produces AC or DC voltage.

      • Heat = > Work
        Work = > Electricity
        Heat = > Electricity Directly

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        • The amount of heat he was generating was not sufficient for a turbine, especially in a close looped system. Much greater heat need to be found. It will happen, and if rossi says within the year it will happen. I am willing to bet he is beaten to the punch by defkalion or Ahern (my vote) or Piantelli.

      • Ole

        Our country is run on power plants made in waterfalls, all of them making electricity directly. No heat.

        • Feko

          Logic, you convert falling water, momentum, into a working force. Heating water make it steam, and steam is accelerated through rotors wich produce the electricity the same way as your waterfall

  • Tim

    Rossi is the one who discovered a working process and developed the E-Cat. He can do whatever he wants with its development. People who say he should – do this or that – with his discovery are missing the point. The fun in any discovery is not “being” there, but “getting” there. I’m sure that Rossi wakes up every day excited to solve problems and make progress on HIS discovery. He is an unconventional man. I prefer to let him do his thing … we might be surprised where he takes us.

  • Pingback: Rossi claims he will generate electricity from the Energy Catalyzer within one year | Environmental, Health and Safety News()

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