Rossi Responds to Consortium Purchase Idea

After the discussion that has been going on here over the last couple of days about a crowd funding approach to testing the E-Cat, I emailed Andrea Rossi with a few questions to get a better sense of what would be involved in such a project. Here are the questions and his responses:

1. Would you accept a purchase from a consortium made up of many small donors?

WE SELL OUR PLANTS ONLY TO CUSTOMERS WHO CAN MAKE IT WORK PROPERLY. I NEED TO KNOW THE UTILIZATION AND OF COURSE THE CUSTOMER.

2.Could you please let me know how long it would take to receive an E-Cat plant?

4 MONTHS NOW, AFTER THE SIGNATURE OF THE ORDER

3. Is it possible to purchase a plant smaller than 1 MW?
NO

4. What would the cost be?

NOW IS 2 MILLION EURO

5. When would the payment be due?
1/3 AT THE ORDER; 2/3 AFTER THE TEST
WARMEST REGARDS,
ANDREA ROSSI

It would be a very large undertaking to make this idea work. In addition to the daunting task of raising funds to purchase the plant, you would need be able to convince Rossi that you have the expertise to run it, and a purpose for its use — and a place to put it! As many readers have stated, you would need to have a legal organization in place to receive funds and run the project, and professionals who could do the testing — all of which would take substantial funds over and above the purchase of the E-Cat Plant.

To a large corporation or research institution this all might not be too great of a hurdle — but for a grassroots organization starting from scratch it would be a major challenge — and in the end it might well prove unnecessary if the E-Cat/LENR is clearly demonstrated by someone else. But if anyone feels up to the challenge of spearheading such an attempt please step forward — I would be happy to what I can to provide support in the way of publicity, communications, or other types of assistance.

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  • morse

    Only a big respectable player (Gates, Branson,…) can buy such a 1MW plant. They have all the expertise and people to test such a device.
    All the rest is bla…bla…bla

    • Cliff Bradley

      That’s not true. Rossi doesn’t need a Billionaire. His rules are clear. He wants someone with the ability to run the plant, which might not be something that your average dude can manage. He wants it to be secure so people don’t steal his technology. That can be accomplished with much more modest means. The Consortium Purchase Idea might be possible if they had a sponsor, like a brewery which uses a lot of heat, or a desalination plant.

      The point is that if a company cannot foot the whole bill themselves, they could put together a bunch of people to help them “invest” in the plant and they would possibly get a return on their investment, like the ability to see the plant and even run tests.

      So, having a bunch of individuals invest $50 or so would not work, but having a corporate sponsor with investors might.

  • Jake

    If Rossi is not willing to name a satisfied customer, it makes all of his claims very suspicious, to say the least.

    Don’t bother wasting your time and money on this.
    The burden of proof is on the producer, not the customer.

    • Cliff Bradley

      Let’s see here. Rossi not willing to name a satisfied customer. Hmmm… let me think. Oh wait! He just sold his last one a month or so ago, and hey! it was also his first!! So that means that they probably don’t have it set up yet, right? So that means that he cannot possibly have a satisfied customer. Egad! So what you are saying is nonsense.

    • Brad Arnold

      Rossi gets 1/3 up front and 2/3rds after the successful test on site. In other words, the customer doesn’t pay for lion’s share until it is working on site.

      As far as naming the one “satisfied customer” Rossi has had so far – can’t you just wait until a few thousand have been produced in a couple of months – odds are at least one of those customers will allow public viewing of their onsite working E-Cat. Jake is right: Rossi need prove nothing to anyone but the customer that is being charged something like 2 million euros.

  • Steve Robb

    I suggest people stop worrying. I am convince that cold fusion is real and the product developments seem to be converging on a nickel-hydrogen system. It is only a brief matter of time that a customer comes out and talks about the Rossi device they have purchased unless it does not work. I suspect the first company is a government agency that has ample money to work with but careers might be hurt and embarrassment ensue if they made a bad purchase.

    • Robert Mockan

      People need to get past this “does it work?” phase, and start thinking about higher temperatures and greater power densities. The nickel hydrogen process makes a good water heater but is marginal for electric power. The nickel lattice just does not have the material properties required for aerospace propulsion applications. Nano particle osmium in a ceramic matrix permeable to hydrogen would be excellent if it could operate at 2200K with a power density of 100 watts per gram in self sustaining mode. This would enable building a LANR rocket engine comparable to the nuclear engines successfully test fired in the NERVA program 30 years ago. Those engines generated typically 5000 megawatts at 2000K for an hour using hydrogen reaction mass. That should be at least the goal of LANR (lattice assisted nuclear reaction) technology.

      • Kim

        Yes, all research now shows this to be
        a very rich source of energy.

        Its only common sense that if we can
        extract energy in a mushroom cloud,
        That extracting it in pieces is also
        feasible ect…

        Respect
        Kim

      • Great idea and suggestion. Is osmium as efficient as
        Nickel ?

        • Robert Mockan

          Given the present level of understanding about metal lattice properties relevant to LANR, the hypothesis is that osmium may be superior to nickel. The element in nano particle form does adsorb hydrogen comparable to palladium, but at very high temperature, (much more than nickel), and the lattice structure is also stable to
          very high temperature. In this sense it is also much superior to zirconium, that has also demonstrated LANR. So is osmium more efficient? That requires experiments, but the properties make it an excellent candidate for research into high temperature applications.

          • Johannes Hagel

            How much available is osmium in the earth crust? Conparable to nickel?

          • Nickel transmutates to Cu, what does Osmium ?

          • Osmium is rare and noble metal as Pd, Pt, Au
            thus expensive.
            Like to replace “anonyme” by my own photo,
            How to do ?

    • bachcole

      Since when has a bad purchase harmed the careers of government employees?

  • Carl

    You would have to seek corporate donors.

  • Burt

    So, the Escrow principles are gone now??

    • All of the payments are still done in escrow as far as we know. The 1/3rd and the rest upon testing. He takes the money out of escrow when the product is delivered to it’s final location, so far as he says.

  • Yu Chem

    It might be possible to engage with some existing non-profit or a kind of organization and crowd-fund the purchase but under the name of it.

  • Hampus

    So now he wants cash up front? Not a good idea!

  • 25000 names were expected on the white house petition to investigate a few months ago, and it was free to sign.

    537 signatures was the total received. Saying 10000 people are interested may not be true, and $50 each for news that will come out anyways soon enough.

    I’d propably even donate the $50, but I’m a hard core junkie on the topic. I’d like to see someone with courage enough to show this thing works well.

  • H. Hansson

    It becomes all more clear.. besides probably having a functional device..Mr. Ross also have a paranoid personality.

    • Dionysius John

      It isn’t paranoia if they really ARE after you/your IP.

  • racribeiro

    Lets start the crowdfunding based on the idea of a generic LENR device. If Rossi complies, great, if not others will.
    What is important is to make a clear statement that LENR exists, everything else is just marketing.

    • admin

      Unfortunately the only LENR model on the market is this expensive 1 MW model. Unless someone else is offering something else that could be tested.

  • Dave

    So we have to give him over 660 thousand Euro up front for a device that never been shown to actually work? As PT Barnum once said, “There’s a sucker born every minute.”

    • bachcole

      I agree with Dave. I am a Rossi sort of believer. I personally am inclined to believe him. I have looked at a lot of the evidence before Rossi (SPAWAR, SRI, etc.). 660,000 Euros is a lot of money. It is more than $1,000,000. I am not ready to risk real money yet for an unproven energy source.

    • Dionysius John

      Your implication is as accurate as your attribution: Barnum never said “There’s a sucker born every minute.” That quote is correctly attributed to one of his competitors. Look it up, or as is more likely necessary, have someone technology literate to look it up for you.

  • Casey

    COULD SOMEONE PLEASE TELL HIM TO TURN CAPS LOCK OFF?

  • the snake

    It is theoretically possible to sue the holder of a patent for granting a license. Maybe we can collect money for a lawsuit. The idea of patents is to have knowledge made public. If Rossi does not disclose his catalyst but yet implements it in prototypes being sold as products and in exhibitions, he may forfeit any rights he may get.

    • Steve Robb

      Spoken like a true snake.

      • GreenWin

        And ign’nt of the law.

  • evleer

    There must be many industries that could benefit from a 1 MW heating plant and have budget for it. For example: greenhouse companies, hospitals, airports, large shopping malls, etc.

    Of course, most companies are inclined towards proven technology when it comes to these kind of investments, but by putting emphasis on the innovative and green nature of this new technology and the benefits that it could bring in terms of publicity, it should be possible to convince a third party into taking that risk and making a purchase.

    Thus, we would know the validity of Rossi’s claims within a couple of months. Of course, chances are that developments on the eCat front (Hyperion?) will shed light upon the subject even sooner, but we cannot count on that to happen.

    • bachcole

      It seems to me that we should wait. By the time that we get the actual plant after all the preparation, either (1) Rossi will be in jail or etc., or (2) Rossi will be proven to be right.

      • GreenWin

        He’s already “right.” Evidence is overwhelming. And why not find one rich guy to donate the thing to charity?? It’s only $2M.

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  • Rossi needs a growing number of customers to keep the plants running and expanding the production lines the weeks ahead.

    So far 2 customers 14 plants second customer not the same as the first one.

  • Alexvs

    Percentage of believers decays to 52%.

  • Since last 28 oct on a 1Mw Ecat test, I’ve no doubts
    on the real power this “pseudo” Cold Fusion Engine.
    It works ! we must go forward about its optimisations
    and multitude applications.

  • George

    Complete waste of time. If it is real then time will tell. Rossi is making it way to difficult for his supporters to continue backing him. We should all quit wasting our time with these ridiculous discussions. Apparently, there are several others that are working on products, let’s move on to them.

    • bachcole

      I agree with you George. We don’t really need Rossi. He doesn’t really need us. He has already contributed a great boon by focusing a lot of attention of the reality of “cold fusion”. Let’s find out what other people are doing.

  • bachcole

    $1,000,000 divided by 537 (the number of people who signed the White House petition) is $1862.19. I couldn’t take a hit like that. Financially, it would be tough but we could do it. But my self-esteem would be damaged and my son-esteem (my little boy’s opinon of his Daddy) would be damaged. I won’t be involved in a scheme like this which will be resolved anyway in a few months.

  • bachcole

    I would consider helping and perhaps contributing to a group funding effort to do research and development on cold fusion. And we would not be constrained by Rossi. The $1,800 necessary to get in on a group effort to buy a 1 MW Rossi alleged heater would go a long way towards starting a research effort. We might even improve on Rossi.

  • Paolotini

    let me explain you something:

    everything is a big scam.

    i hope you are able to unterstand this.

    • Steve Robb

      Thank you for explaining all that in such a succinct manner. All is a scam. All the research that you have not bothered to read or the videos of the conferences you have not bothered to watch are the product of the deluded. All the many hundreds of thousands of man-hours of research and many millions of dollars spent on that research are the result of a great delusion created in the minds of others by a very few master scammers. I take it conspiracy theories appeal to you.

    • Matt Smart

      “everything is a big scam”?!
      Please explain this sentance, do you mean life and everything we hold dear is not real? We are all living under a glass dome Truman Show style?
      Wow, I had no idea!

      • Matt Smart

        I meant to say “this sentence” but I think I made my point here.

      • GreenWin

        Matt, IF we are only poor players strutting on a Truman-style stage… Do we get residuals??

    • Brad Arnold

      http://www.renewableenergyworld.com/rea/blog/post/2011/05/swedish-skeptics-confirm-nuclear-process-in-tiny-4-7-kw-reactor

      “I do not think it is “amazing that the media has not paid more attention to” Rossi. His claims seem astounding. They resemble those of many previous energy scams. Reporters and scientists dismiss Rossi for this reason.

      I would dismiss him myself if I did know that hundreds of other researchers have seen similar effects thousands of times. I myself have spent weeks in laboratories watching cold fusion gadgets produce heat. It is boring after a while.

      Knowing that the effect has been widely replicated in hundreds of major laboratories puts everything in a different perspective. It makes Rossi far more believable. Believability in experimental physics is predicated on two things: independent replication and a high signal to noise ratio. Cold fusion met these goals back in 1990. There is not a single rational reason to doubt it exists.

      The thing is, most reporters and scientists, and people such as Glen Doty know nothing at all about cold fusion. They do not realize it exists. They have not read any papers on the subject. So naturally they say “I’m confident that this is a fraud…” In 1906, three years after Kitty Hawk and one year after the Wrights flew in front a large crowd of leading citizens of Dayton Ohio for 40 minutes, every single newspaper and magazine in the U.S. — especially Scientific American — denounced them as frauds, charlatans and lunatics. Not one of those newspapers bothered to send someone to Dayton to ask the bank president and others if they had really seen a flight.

      The editors at Scientific American today are no smarter than their predecessors. They told me they have never read a paper on cold fusion “because reading papers is not our job” but they are sure it is fraud and lunacy. (I uploaded that letter.)

      The real question is not why is the mass media is ignoring Rossi, but why have they ignored the rest of cold fusion for 22 years? My answer: because they are stupid, and incurious.” – JedRothwell, May 4, 2011

  • Matt Smart

    Sorry about the long comment here…
    Frank has done an excellent job over the last few days to push the idea around to the e-cat world viewers of a crowd funding purchase proposal and testing of an e-cat from Rossi then an eventual donation of the machine to a worthy charity. It is also very interesting to note that Rossi would be open to the idea now as I understand previous efforts to do something similar were ignored or not picked up.

    The initial idea that we could raise enough money through crowd funding to purchase, test and then most importantly *donate* the positively tested e-cat to a charity that could make use of it (i think that point has been missed somewhere) could well have been idealistic and at the same time naive, but it was certainly worth getting other view points from here and directly from Rossi himself to test the water on such a proposal.

    As it has been said from a number of comments why should we do this as sooner or later we will find out one way or another, and that is very true I hope. The good or bad will out in the end, but the initial idea was that we could get this whole thing rolling sooner before the possibility that this story somehow gets buried as Rossi does not appear to be helping himself in the promotion of something so game changing for the world.

    Going back to the proposal I think people would be more interested in contributing to such a fund if we could find a sponsor to put up at least half of the cash, a Bill Gates type of philanthropist who could see the idea as a charitable one in the end and take a bit of a risk for the sake of a million euros or so.

    Racribeiro has a valid point on here too, why should we fund just Rossi? LENR/LANR/CF just needs a kick start of some sort commercially so that it can literally take off.

    So another idea would be to crowd fund and also get sponsorship for an X Prize for LENR/LANR/CF to be awarded to any one of the major players in this arena (or even one we have not heard of yet) to make a machine that can be tested and proved independently and who ever submits a machine first that works as per the LENR/LANR/CF/NiH/PdD theories gets the 1st prize, two five or ten million dollars/euros dependent upon who we could get to sponsor this as well, any thoughts on such an X Prize instead of the crowd fund e-cat purchase test and donate idea? And who could we push and lobby to sponsor such an idea? I’m sure some of the same arguments against it will crop up but why should Rossi hold all of the cards now?

  • Frank

    If Rossi would like the public to test his ‘1MW steam generator’, it would have been such a simple effort. – The whole setup was ready for that in Oct. 28, when the mysterious client (or was there only the mysterious consultant – a retired colonel?) did their tests.
    Why not just allow the public and the media one day before or after the client do see his ‘world changing invention’ in operation?

    Rossi has good reasons why he refuses (future /real) public demonstration. – With every show he takes the risk that he gets caught …

    So, it’s safer for him to go play tennis 😉

    I try to visualize how much I would have been pissed off, if I would have traveled a long way for his Oct.28 test, and then not been allowed to watch the test!

  • Shrewd Dude

    If I were Mr Rossi, before I began to sell my devices,I would want to have hundreds of thousands of them manufactured. Once the first small devices are available to the public his “Secret” is out and anyone can begin to copy it.
    Ganging together to purchase one, with the intention of discovering his secret, is no help to Mr Rossi.
    Whilst others have replicated the base reaction, only Mr Rossi has demonstrated sufficient power and control for commercial exploitation.

  • wes

    Frank,

    Please ask Rossi:

    1) What are the qualifications an ecat plant operator needs to have? We have to see his complete “purchaser qualification” check list.

    2) What limitations (if any) will there be on the acceptance testing performed by the customer?

    3) All commercial power equipment is sold with a manufacture’s warranty. What does the e-cat plant come with?

    4) Will Rossi’s company provide installation and training for the quoted price?

    5) What are the terms and cost of the maintenance contract?

    Thank you.

    • admin

      Good questions, Wes. I will see if I can get answers. Rossi informed me that testing of the plant will be done by a representative of the customer at Leonardo Corporation’s premises — if the plant does not meet the guaranteed performance level (minimum COP of 6) All money will be returned to the customer.

  • the snake

    It’s more a hoax than a scam. Actually there is a strong exothermic Ni-H reaction for which the physics are not exactly understood. I doubt that there is fusion involved, Rossi never demonstrated any sort of radiation emitted. Even if it is an exothermic reaction that is more intense than burning conventional fossil fuel, there is no proof that actually energy is produced since we do not know how much energy he somehow charges into the catalyst and the setup prior to running the e-cat. It’s just a kind of battery that runs for about 4h producing heat instead of electricity.

    Rossi apparently knows that he is not net producing energy but thinks he can resolve the issues by assemblies of multiple small e-cats. His 1MW piece is nothing else than a circuit arrangement of base units. If none of the base unit can produce net energy, the assembly can’t do it either.

    Now it’s said, it will take 2y to market. All the stories of 1MW units sold are pure nonsense and time playing. There are secret buyers you will never know of and you will never see any 1MW actually shipped to somewhere from any real plant that produces anything.

    • Brad Arnold

      “Sorry, but convoluted frauds involving lots of parties is the least likely. So are 3 groups of science observers too stupid to recognize an obvious fraud. Also, there are enough other NiH results which suggest a LENR reaction.”

  • Dan

    Forget the evidence. Anyone who types using only caps loses credibility immediately.

    • Dan

      And I really wanted to believe.

    • carbonat

      All capital letters does not mean the same in all cultures. Romans (as in Roman Empire) only wrote in all capitals. Rosi is Italian so he may not give any though on this. I can tell that I only learnt of all capitals being offensive for Anglo-Saxons since about one year ago. I never though before this could be offensive or have a negative reading. Just my 2 cents.

  • Sanjeev

    Yet another competitor/lenr product.

    http://www.globalenergycorporation.net

  • Alexvs

    ???

    “WE SELL OUR PLANTS ONLY TO CUSTOMERS WHO CAN MAKE IT WORK PROPERLY. I NEED TO KNOW THE UTILIZATION AND OF COURSE THE CUSTOMER.”

    • Edward Allan

      I agree with your ????

      It is not the customer who needs to make a product work, it is the seller.

      I really hope this product works, it’s still new tech and new tech always has teething issues.

      The biggest problem I see (and I’ve been following this story for some time) is that Andrea – brilliant as he obviously is, doesn’t have a very good business head.

      I understand he wants to protect his investment and make sure he makes a good living from it but he’s going about it completely the wrong way.

      Andrea, As a business consultant I would recommend you concentrate on small local generators. I don’t see that this product can compete with the current energy suppliers and your best way to market would be to start supplying small outlying villages.

      Don’t try and sell the product, sell the service.

      I would very much like to get involved with this product from a business perspective.

  • Brad Arnold

    I would like this question raised: when Rossi’s Leonardo Corporation starts producing and selling thousands of E-Cats a year, how will he maintain the strict customer screening policies? Particularly when Defkalion will be giving Leonardo a run for their money soon. No, there is no way Rossi can protect his LENR generators from scrutiny when there are 10,000 out there (predicted in a year).

  • Veiko

    Utilization NiH with Si beton is the key tag.
    It pool with 500 persons with 1800 usd is not waranted method for investors, bu tfor charity mayby OK.

    Technologys like LENR need Greativity funding or cloused Consortium before prototypes. Agreed ?

    Bests, investclubs/at/gmail.com

  • Veiko Lillevalja

    Utilization Ni_H with Si_beton is the key tag.
    It pool with 500 persons with 1800 usd is not waranted method for investors, bu for charity mayby OK.

    Technologys like LENR need Greativity funding or cloused Consortium before prototypes. Agreed ?

  • Dave_ch

    I Think we/you should ask companies. Great companies like Apple,HP,Microsoft etc.
    Ask them if they would spend their part to a 1MW Device, that would be used for a homeless-project or something like this.
    Well people like us could spend maybe 100 Dollars, so it would need 20’000 “normal” people. But a company like Apple could spend 1 Mil without Problems.
    anyway, this is my suggestion 🙂

    • admin

      Thanks, Dave — I agree with this approach if a big donor can be found.

    • We do not have to ask the companies I would guess that the fastest of them ARE DOING IT right now ( Google anyone ?! ). Google has been operating their bloom boxes several months before the whole Bloom Box saga went public … and the e-cat will be the only missing part of their “organize the world’s information” saga …
      For some reason also Google withdrew ALL their investment into renewable energy… and before that they trew several hundreds of millions into the field …
      Thus I will throw a public bet of 50 dollars that yes Google is one of those 13 Customers and yes it will be the fastest adopter of the LENR+ technology …

  • How many people signed the Whitehouse Petition? We had 30 days to get 25000 votes and the whitehouse would have given us a response.
    Signing a petition is free, and in 30 days 537 people signed it. 537!
    It appears the ecat has stalled, and the problems cannot be overcome. Defkalion has not even revealed a real picture (aside from computer mock up) of their reactors, never mind let someone see one.
    The claimed Rossi could not run an ecat for 28 hours. This seems to hold true with all his demos. The product is not stable.
    So now someone thinks they can raise 5 million dollars by $50 donations. Really?
    How many $50 donations equals 5 million dollars.
    10,100,1000,10000?
    It would take a hundred thousand people willing to throw $50 away just so someone else can verify if it works.
    Lets say that the entire 537 people who bothered to sign the whitehouse petition in 30 days all decided to contribute $50. We would still be 99463 more hard core ecat donors to raise the 5 million.
    Let’s get real people.

    • Carl H. Dahlberg

      If Andrea Rossi could run an e-cat for at least 6 months in a self sustained mode successfully I believe that would be the way to show it’s authenticity. So far he has been reluctant to do it. A customer should not take the risk to see if the e-cat he has purchased will stand a sustained mode test if the designer of the e-cat will not perform the test ahead of time himself.