Rossi Eyes 15 MW Plant in Pursuit of Self Sustaining E-Cat

As Andrea Rossi discusses the commercialization of E-Cat Technology one thing seems to becoming clearer by the day: he is focusing much more now on the production of electricity. Two thermal energy producing E-Cats have been designed, the 1 MW plant now on the market, and the 10 kW units that Leonardo Corp is gearing up to mass produce.

Rossi seems to be pleased with both these products — but it is pretty clear that he is not satisfied enough to stop working towards the goal of the efficient production of electricity from his inventions. One of the key reasons for this is that if enough electricity can be produced from his technology he can start to work on a closed-loop system in which E-Cats produce the electricity that can power the E-Cat reactors so that both heat and electricity can be produced with no need for an external energy source.

A reader of Rossi’s JONP blog this week made point that I am sure many E-Cat observers would agree with:

Since e-cat requires electric power, which is very expensive in some countries (expecially here in Italy) it’s crucial to get also the electric power production as soon as possible. The first generation will enable substantial savings but only the second generation will trigger off the revolution.

Rossi responded:

I agree, also because the production of electricity will make the COP infinite, if we consider that in a system of E-Cats one makes the power to drive the others.

Those who purchase the first edition of home E-Cats will have to determine whether the cost outlay will be worthwhile. While heat is very valuable for many households — indeed essential for basic survival in many parts of the world — for some the heat-only E-Cat may not be cost effective solution compared to other sources of heat that are available, especially where the cost of electricity, which is needed to run the E-Cat, is high. However if electricity generation became available with home units, and especially if some kind of closed loop system, with an “infinite” COP were available, there would of course be a tremendous amount of interest. The idea of producing cheap and abundant power at home is one of the most appealing aspects of any LENR technology.

As things stand now however, it would appear that Leonardo Corporation is some time away from domestic electrical production. According to Rossi, recent collaboration with Seimens AG has shown promise for efficient electrical generation at low steam temperatures (251 C), but this is only from large E-Cat plants. Rossi commented further on this today:

We are working hard on this issue. The Siemens turbine, anyway, will be for plants over 15 electric MW of power, no way to make it fit for small applications.
Probably we will start soon the production of a 15 MW plant, totally self sustained utilizing part of the electric energy it produces to drive the E-Cat modules and using the remaining thermal energy for heating.

Up until this point, the largest E-Cat plant has been a 1 MW thermal unit. Now Rossi is talking about making something fifty times as large (he says 15 MW of electric power which at 30 per cent efficiency would require 50 MW of thermal power) with the intention of making a closed-loop self sustaining plant which will create enough excess electricity to drive itself. This kind of system would achieve the holy grail of energy production that many inventors and engineers have been striving for over the centuries — and which conventional science has said would be impossible.

Something fifty times as large as his current 1 MW plants would be a huge undertaking. The E-Cat units that he is using in the larger plants are not being made on the robotic production line, and according to Rossi have to be manually constructed, so this would take considerable time and money to achieve. As always, Rossi sounds very optimistic, but we will no doubt have to wait for some time to see if this can become a reality.

  • Cliff Bradley

    Well, that’d be kind of cool if Rossi can do it in a relatively short time.

  • Jack

    “the 1 MW plant now on the market”
    What does that mean? Please clarify. I hope it is not a translation error again, lol.

    • admin

      Rossi is taking orders for the 1 MW plant, says it will take 4 months to complete from time of order — cost is $1.5 million.

  • MK

    I would like to see that working live streamed, while engineers and scientists veryfy it and the startup generator is OFF.

  • Sandy

    Would a 15MW E-Cat produce enough steam to power a locomotive?

    • Francesco CH

      Of course!!!

    • Main line railway locomotives (steam) typically generate about 2-4 MW equivalent in mechanical power.

  • timycelyn

    Frank, Rossi seems to be talking talking about 15Mw of ELECTRIC power. That will mean an e-cat of getting on for 50Mw of thermal power – in other words, 50 x the current 1Mw plant that he currently offers.

    • Francesco CH

      Regarding electricity, you must divide by three.

      A 15 MW plant is a 15 MW thermal plant, able to produce 5 MW of electricity.

      • Francesco CH

        Ooops, Rossi specified “15 electric MW” ! ! !

        Sorry, my mistake!

  • 15 MW electrial should be enough for 100,000 people in a moderate climate.

    The solar sodium plant in Spain started last year with a Spainish/Saudi partnership is 20 MW and claimed to be enough for a Spanish city of 200,000.

    This 15 MW plant planning it seems is a step to the next level of device applications in the future.

  • Whoops 15 MW must be good for 12,000 homes or
    about 20000-40000 population.

    The spanish PS20 solar power tower started in 2009 with 20 MW.

    Wikipedia:

    “Resulting from cooperation between Ciemat, the IDEA, and the University of Seville, the whole plant is to be completed by 2013, when it will produce approximately 300MW – energy for around 180,000 homes, equivalent to the needs of the city of Seville.”

  • More facts:

    Wikipeadia:

    “The US National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) has estimated that by 2020 electricity could be produced from power towers for 5.47 cents per kWh.”

    “Steam is heated to 500 C to drive turbines which generate electricity”

    There are alternatives to turbines such as a pressure driven internal flywheel axel to the
    generator.

    • Everything will be LENR power within the decade.

      Have you seen a power tower. None exist for a reason they are big and costly.

      Anyone invested in alternative energy should diversify quickly or get out of the field entirely unless it is related to LENR energy IMHO.

      Even if Andrea Rossi is wrong in his claims to control LENR, there is a power there that will be harnessed soon if not by him.

      LENR is fact confirmed by the most reputable physics labs worldwide. Your grade 11 textbooks may take a few years to update, however it does exist. Even Wikipedia is nearly caught up (wikipedia – cold fusion).

      Nickel power will be far cheaper than 5 cents per kWh. I think governments will originally try to tax e-cats harshly but will abandon this as black market e-cats take over.

      Governments will need to get their hands in the pockets of taxpayers somewhere else.

      This technology will make energy almost free if the reactor last a long time, and the refills remain cheap. I believe blackmarket potentials for this product are highly extreme and will help keep manufacturers competitive.

      This technology will also replace energ in cars. Imagine buying a car with a lifetime worth of smog free fuel already built in. This is probably possible now if we opted for a 5 ton truck or bigger, as the steam conversion equipment and ecats necessary would be very bulky.

      Building an ecat powered truck is possible now though according to the outputs declared by Rossi. It would also be a great publicity stunt. A truck that could drive with no refueling.

      A truck that cold drive with no smog emissions.

      Imagine 600 million less smog producing cars/trucks on the road within 10 years.

      Imagine no more talk of global warming.

      • sapain

        whar`s going to happen to the government system.
        no department of energy.
        no department of agriculture.
        no department of human resources. ie social support.
        no department of transportation. transportaation will become airbased.
        military will be scaled back.
        policing will be scaled back.
        won`t be much left to regulate and the govenment body will shrink dramatically.
        poltical parties may become a thing of the past.

        • Steve Robb

          I don’t see how you get all that with the exception of the Department of Energy.

        • I agree that there will be a much scaled back department of energy and it will probably be more of a watchdog organization.

          That is a far cry from visualizing no government. Try not paying your taxes and see how long your freedom remains.

          The Congressional Budget Office reported in May 2008 that the actual costs of building 75 of the existing nuclear power plants in the U.S. exceeded industry quoted estimated by more than 300 percent. The industry, in other words, reported average construction costs for these plants at $45.2 billion (in 1990 dollars) but the facilities ended up costing $144.6 billion (in 1990 dollars)”

          The DoE will have a lot less to spend on real estate, power plants and power grids just for starters.

          Our monthly power bills are meant to consider all of this, but when energy becomes something privatized then this aspect of government can fade away.

          This does not mean our entire infrastructure will collapse.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            When we can live off the grid, and eventually live truly independently, then government will become largely irrelevant, reduced to ribbon cutting and trade junkets. Countries slow to adapt to the new libertarian utopia will lose their population to seasteads.

          • sapain

            with desalination, food production goes up world wide, exporting and costs drops, with more freed up capital more community based agro pops up. overabundence of food, no requlations unless the intention is to keep prices artifically high. water management gone.

            overabundance of food and energy, poverty drops, the move poverty drops the less people needed to maintain it.

            the world wide debt crisis will disapear, no more artifical energy prices.goodbye imf.

            with a more relaxed society, alot of social problems will disappear, lowering the size of the policing agenties.

            wars r fought over energy and resources, lots of energy and water, what`s to fight over besides a tree and spiritual beliefs. goodbye UN.

            immagration would slow down and become tourism.

            political parties battle over the control for energy and how best to apply this energy. with vasts amounts of energy what is there to battle over. lobbyist would slowly disappear and so goes their influence on how things r done. so the governing system would change.

            the smaller the government becomes the less taxes r needed to maintain it and increasing the individuals capital. this capital becomes community based to support it`s infrastructure.

            there will always be leaders, but how they become a leader, the way they lead and what they lead is the question.

            no collapse, just a change in how things r done.

          • GreenWin

            Let’s not forget the 600,000 MILES of power lines and transmission cable. They will eventually be dismantled and sold for scrap. There will be no national grid smart or dumb. Only micro-grids in local neighborhoods providing back up. No more blackouts. No more river diversions or dams. No more steel towers cutting through wilderness.

            I might even reincarnate for this ride.

          • Greg Goble

            The cost of nuclear is on the taxpayer… not the consumer. Free (nearly) energy soon. Thanks to Einstein and the pursuit of the unified field theory which knocks established physics on their ass kiss.

      • Greg Goble

        A 10 megawatt powerplant using the initial Rossi fussion reactor, properly engineered, could easily fit in a 40′ trailer. Enough steam or electricity to power a semi towing two more trailors cross country for six months…. I WILL BUY ONE>the engineering now exists.

        • Greg Goble

          Long distance rail is in anticipation even more than the long distant trucking sector… also follow oceanic shipping… Leonardo Corp. will obviousley stay tuned… stayed tuned.

  • stuey81_in_australia

    guys i found a way to spin as many brushless dc motors as i like but at very slow rpm,(small as they are) when i say slow i mean around 120 – 150 rmp continuos. is there anyway for me to make usefull energy from this kienetic movment? – my system is low torque but there is no limit to how many gensets i can incorperate.

    cheers

    stuey

    any input aoreciated (thinking of scaling up)

    • stuey81_in_australia

      edit, sorry forgot to mention, my BLDC motors require me to spin them faster then my system allows. i have flow, i have motion, but i dont have enough speed to produce power. – help

      • stuey81_in_australia

        “guys i found a way to spin as many by brushless dc motors as i like but at very slow rmp,(small as they are) when i say slow i mean around 120 – 150 rpm continuos. ” edit: i ment slow rpm and constant rather than continueous.

        • stuey81_in_australia

          gotta go to bed 11:08 pm here, anyone who may be able to help please email me on:

          stuey81@bigpond.com

          • clovis

            Hi, Stuey,
            I belong to a group of inventors,and we have and are at present looking at different kinds of configurations in order to see if we can help the owners to work out some of the bugs. i would be glad to help if you wish. and will sign an nda if you like. my e-mail is above –Clovis

          • stuey81_in_australia

            clovis – where is your email? and reply button?

      • Colin Connaughton

        You must be puting energy in as dc. You want to make energy from a generator powered by the dc motor? If you are expecting to get more energy out than you put it, I promise you that you won’t.

        • stuey81_in_australia

          no electrical energy input colin

  • John Atkinson

    Where does that leave the 10kw e-cat? If enough steam is not produced to generate elec.,would the only use be foe heating supplimented by out sourced ele. ?

    • Jimr

      Just possibly elect. generation by non mechanical methods (solid state ,Carnot comes into effect ). Very low effiency today, probably 10% or less, but improving all the time. If cost affective even one kwh effbeincy would be 720 kwh per mon.

  • Brad Arnold

    Rather than bother making the E-Cat larger, Rossi needs to increase the maximum operating temperature at which the E-Cat runs. According to Defkalion, they’ve already done this (they claim a maximum temperature of 900C, more than enought to replace coal or natural gas at power plants already operating).

    OTH, Rossi has succeeded in eliminating the hydrogen tank under pressure connected to the reaction chamber – something that still is beyond the reach of Defkalion engineers.

    I’m beginning to think (ironically, since it started off the opposite) that the Hyperion will be for industrial purposes, and the E-Cat is more for home use. Maybe when Rossi takes Defkalion to court over copyright infringment, they will agree to marry their technological improvements, and both can become filthy rich.

    • Brad Arnold

      Obviously, the Holy Grail is an infinate COP using LENR, where the electricity used by the LENR device is a fraction of the amount it generates. Because nickel is about half a million times as energy dense as oil (and much more common), and electricity is the gold stardard of energy, that ought to be the goal to (as Forbes on-line put it) make electricity “too cheap to meter.”

      • clovis

        Hi, Brad.
        I like it,“too cheap to meter.”

      • Robert Mockan

        If Rossi keeps COP=6 he will be at a serious disadvantage to any competitor with higher COP.

        Given:

        Pie=(Poe+Pie)/(COPxEff)
        Pout=COPxPie
        Poet=EffxPout

        where Pie is electrical power to reactor
        Poe is useful electric power out
        COP is gain
        Eff is conversion efficiency
        Pout is total thermal power out
        Pout is also Poet/Eff
        Poet is total electrical power out
        Poet is also Poe + Pie

        Given Poet=15 MW (and COP=6, Eff=.30),
        then Pout=15 MW/.30 = 50 MW (thermal)

        But Pout also equals COPxPie, so
        Pie=Pout/COP then
        Pie=50 MW/6 = 8.33 MW (electrical input to reactor)

        Thus the input to the reactor with a 15 MW total electrical output is going to be 8.33 MW, leaving only 6.67 MW of useful electrical power out for other uses.

        That is still not enough to power another Rossi reactor in series with the first one.

        On the other hand if Defkalion is doing COP=20, and the Siemens turbine at 30% conversion is used with their system also generating 15 MW total electrical power out, then their useful power out is:

        Pout=Poet/Eff
        =15 MW/.30
        =50 MW (thermal)

        and

        Pie=Pout/20
        =50 MW/20
        =2.5 MW (electrical to reactor input)

        Since we are given 15 MW total electrical power out (for both example), and 2.5 MW needs to be returned to the Defkalion reactor to power it, then that leaves 15 MW -2.5 MW = 12.5 MW of useful electrical power.

        In other words, a Defkalion system would be nearly TWICE as efficient as a Rossi system, for a large scale power reactor generating electricity.

        COP (gain,or more technically accurate, thermal efficiency) will make or break the competition. Thermal power per unit mass of “fuel” or “catalyst” is of secondary importance, as the cost factor increases more slowly with scale than that forced by low COP.

        COP=6 is pushing the limit of practicality.
        COP=20 seems quite reasonable.

        When one factors in practical engineering net (useful) power generation is never the Carnot, and is also not equal to the turbine efficiency. So sticking in the 30% number should be viewed as a convenience for calculation with limited information, and not rigor.

        But one conclusion that seems unavoidable is that Rossi has a problem unless he raises COP.

        • sparks

          Said another way, if Rossi can’t get at least a piece of the Pie, he will seriously Pout.

          Sorry, couldn’t resist. Send in the the COPS.

          • Robert Mockan

            Or if Rossi has problems with the Pot (power output total) he will seriously Poop (person out of power)?

          • Sparks

            You, sir, are truly a Poet.

      • joe

        This all rings of some Star Trek utopian future. I find it hard to believe that easy road is in the cards for the human race especially all from a man with a perfect historical background of quackery.

        • psi

          All LENR researchers have a “history of ‘quackery.'” Read up on PetrolDragon. The technology worked. Fluctuations in oil cost killed the business model.

          • Are you David?
            Good work on PetrolDragon.

    • LENR is awesome but nobody seems to be able to control it yet. What stops all of the reaction from going up all at once?

      Several people have claimed success at controlling it. Rossi and Defkalion

      Rossi claims keeping the temperature/reaction lower it does not run away to 1455 degrees Celsius and melt the Nickel involved.

      “Defkalion” (if they even exist) claims burst energy at higher temperatures. I am guessing it might be possible with a start/stop style.

      I believe Andrea Rossi has control of this at minimum heat, but think he is maxed out on self research potential unless he really gets a huge infuse of cash.

      Once countries recognize LENR for what it is then billions of dollars will be thrown at this from governments, Universities, Philanthropists, and the Automotive sector.

      Imagine when all aspects of nanotechnology merge into this with the foremost Nuclear Physicists working in labs with thousands of people all working towards improving and controlling LENR.

      Once Uranium power becomes obsolete then there may be a few more scientists available for this sort of thing as well.

      This technology needs money. Andrea Rossi is trying to make money, but mostly he is waking up the scientific community.

      • Steve Robb

        “Imagine when all aspects of nanotechnology merge into this with the foremost Nuclear Physicists working in labs with thousands of people all working towards improving and controlling LENR.”

        I am feeling a touch cynical this morning. We don’t need the thousands calcified brains of the foremost Nuclear Physicists working on this we need young and agile minded graduated students with new ideas. With a fraction of the money taken from hot fusion research applied to Cold Fusion miracles will be made.

      • Robert Mockan

        “..What stops all of the reaction from going up all at once?”

        If some way could be found to do exactly that, aerospace propulsion applications become immediately feasible. A LENR fuel that could be bulk detonated, so that all the energy is released before adjacent reacting regions turn to plasma preventing them from contributing to the energy release with more LENR reactions, could be used for “pulse” propulsion rocket engines.
        Research in the 60s indicated “pulse” propulsion rocket engines could be powered using atomic bombs, but the power levels would be very high and would present some engineering problems. LENR pulse propulsion could be small, lightweight, with no radiation, and the “exhaust” would not be a mile diameter fireball of an atomic bomb incinerating everything in a radius of miles around the blast off site. Until we have more information about the Rossi or Defkalion fuel, we will not know if the fuel can be adapted for pulse propulsion. Unfortunately of course, if one can make a LENR pulse unit, one also has a LENR bomb.
        IF such is feasible, we can expect the governments of the world to not only prevent LENR device technology from being marketed, but to prevent proliferation of all LENR technology. It is not inconceivable that some day possessing nickel might be felony.

    • dsm

      I believe Rossi ‘hates’ Defkalion and no amount of goodwill is likely going to repair the relationship.

      Prof Stremmenos who triggered the founding of Defkalion and was their chief scientist, after he resigned mid 2011, publicly called Defakalion “Liars and megalomaniacs”. He was just sounding off. He said this at an arranged press release.

      Prof Stremmenos is the main author of Rossi’s LENR theories.

      That does not bode well for any reunion.

      Doug M

  • sapain

    ecat merged with solar heating will increase the potential of electrical production until a full effect system can be implemented.

    • daniel maris

      Maybe solar/wind plus the new Toyota battery in development (much cheaper and great power density) plus the E cat = a winning formula.

  • Loop

    @Francesco CH 15MW-28%(turbine effectiveness)-cop6 (for 15MW it’s 2.5MW for cop6 average mode,
    we saw in Rossi math that worst case scenario cop is 3.7).

    In best case scenario we got 15MW-28%=10.8MW-2.5KW(cop6)=8.3MW out of the 15MW unit.
    In the worst case of 3.7 scenario we got 6.7459…MW out from the 15MW unit.
    If we back the unit with its own produced electricity in the best case we could get 1 hour from the electric
    grid at cop 3.7 for the unit start-up mode, then after 1h the unit would switch to its own electricity after one hour,
    which means in self-sustain mode which is not possible yet we would need to deduct all the taken electricity for the production.

    But based on the calculation the expected production if the standard elct.grid were used, we would get from 6.7459…MW to 8.3MW out of 15MW unit.

    The question to Rossi would be, could we use the rest of the thermal power for heat because we have 72% after the turbine generator.

  • PersonFromPorlock

    I persist in the suspicion that Rossi announces bigger and bigger E-cats to distract from the fact that previously announced E-cats haven’t materialised, at least not before the audience these announcements are aimed at. I can. of course, easily be proven wrong, but not by another round of ‘Rossi says’.

    • daniel maris

      Fair enough, but if you are right then Rossi is fast approaching the end of the road. Either way we should know I think before the end of the year.

      • dragon

        Yeah. If by the end of the ear he is announcing the 1GW plant and then the 1 TW plant without even showing a small 10KW device working, then something is really suspicious.
        He is expanding his promises both horizontally (1 million E-cats) and vertically (1 MW and now 15/50 MW plant) so , next thing he cannot lie in to bigger projects until the smaller ones are MATERIALIZED.

        • dragon

          Also, to promise 10KW, 1MW and then 15MW plants while LENR is not proven beyond mere tens of Watts in mainstream science it is a little too much, even for his past records.
          He needs to show the E-CAT to mainstream science (so mainstream people can believe )as soon as possible.

        • daniel maris

          I agree.

          But the story so far is consistent.

          There was the final prototype.

          The “1MW” plant is really a collection of the final prototype devices.

          The 10 KW home E cat was a spin off from the prototype, or perhaps an earlier prototype.

          The 15 MW plant is really the minimum plant that can use the Siemens process to convert to electricity.

          So it does make some narrative sense. But now is the time for the proof of marketing.

      • dsm

        Daniel,

        Good summation.

        Doug M

    • Bruno

      I agree. Time to put up or shut up.

  • Filip

    it’s very simple, if AR doesn’t come up with a home E-cat which generates electricity, it won’t be a succes.
    If an industrial E-cat can do it, he must focus on that.
    He doesn’t have to invest in a factory and I think that’s what’s going to happen. He’s going to have to let go of the home E-cat and focus on the mega plants.

    • Bruno

      If the ecat is for real, even a home ecat that does not produce electricity will be a success. With a COP of 6, you’d get out 6 times as much thermal energy as the electricity put in. Such a system would still heat a home for 1/3 to 1/2 of the cost of heating with natural gas, the cheapest home heating fuel today. People who heat their homes with propane or oil or electricity would see even bigger savings. Sure they won’t have the satisfaction of going off the grid, but they will have the satisfaction of paying less money and using less fossil fuel. I started this post with the word “if”, because we still don’t know if the ecat is for real. It still hasn’t been proven, and there are too many suspicious gaps in previous tests and statements.

      • dsm

        There are problems in your formula

        The cost of electricity to run the eCat 24 hrs a day is more than most if not all, people already pay for their heating bills.

        The eCat does not stop/start easily nor well. Rossi himself last week stated bluntly it was only really suitable for someone who could run it 24 hrs a day.

        That applies to cold climates & winters where 24 hr heating is needed.

        We need to temper our enthusiasm with some reality.

        Doug M

        • Bruno

          DSM, your comments don’t makes sense. Inspectapedia.com estimates 2012 heating costs in the US northeast to be as follows: propane ($2723), oil ($2383), electrical ($1337) and natural gas ($951). Unless the claimed COP of 6 is actually a bald faced lie, the electrical input needed to heat the same home with (multiple) ecats would be in the neighborhood of $1337/6 = $223, for a savings of approximately $700/month. Discount that savings to $500 and you still have a great value proposition. Whether that electricity needs to be trickled in continuously or introduced intermittently every few hours at higher power levels, it still works out the to the same kw-hr over an entire winter. Certainly the ecat can be run continuously for at least three months of every year for well over half the homes in the US. Those same homes generally run their furnaces continuously from about November to March. I know that we do in my home.

          Once again, we’re just talking fairy dust at this point. Rossi has not proven anything yet.

          • Josh

            Rossi’s math didn’t make sense for me either. You’re numbers seem high to me, but I’m cheap.

            My electricity is 70-90 year round… maybe a bit higher in July/August. My heat (nat gas) is maybe 90-130 per month Dec-Feb, 30 the rest of the year for hot water.

            I live in northern IL. Not Siberia, but not exactly exotic.

      • Filip

        Maybe, maybe not. if he’s claiming that he can make a self-sustaining 15MW plant than he is killing his own home Ecat. You better buy a 15MW with a community.
        That’s also an “if”.
        Greetings

  • LEVI Strauss

    The author of this article suggests that by creating excess electrical energy to drive itself, “This kind of system would achieve the holy grail of energy production that many inventors and engineers have been striving for over the centuries — and which conventional science has said would be impossible.” If he is referring to perpetual motion, that’s BS, as the Nickel Hydride or whatever, is being consumed and must be replenished for the reaction to continue. The only “Holy Grail” here is the development of cold fusion.

    • H. Skip Robinson

      No, they are calling it Low Energy Nuclear Reaction (LENR) as the science is reportedly different. They are in fact achieving excess heat, as a few others sources have reported, which can be transferred to electrical energy needed to run the water cooling pumps and controls. They are testing again very soon and will continue to provide press releases as new advances and results are obtained. The science has been proven, perhaps not in the perfect desired manner to overcome the many skeptics but that doesn’t make it untrue. Remember that the patents are still pending and until they are approved, the intellectual property must be safeguarded. It is that simple as to why not all the information about the system has been made public. According to a 2010 estimate, the amount of nickel and hydrogen utilized is extremely inexpensive; less than <$.0025 per kWh so it is not much of a factor. Maintenance is also simple and easy to do. Patients my friends because this really is the Holy Grail of energy and will solve many of the world problems. Just think in few short years, many of the nuclear power plants could be shut down, if we do this right. !!!!

      • sapain

        in germany, they r dropping subsides for 10+mw solar systems and r phasing out their reactors. they say cost of solar is now or close to par with nuclear.
        china has announced that it will be dropping the cost of solar in 2012.

  • Bruno

    I have an idea. Rather than tell us about “plans” for a 15 MW device, how about proving that the 1 MW device exists, or show us a working prototype of the ecat “Home”. Here we are 4 months after the 28 October test that was supposed to have put all doubts to rest, and we still don’t have proof.

    • Craig Binns

      THe 1 MW was never delivered because its gaskets popped or something. What has happened to the other allegedly sold units I have no idea.

      Yes, give us the small ones before the big one. That would make sense IF Rossi has anything. If he is a swindler what he will do is never deliver anything except more and more extravagant promises, each designed to further delay the delivery date while he raises money from his marks.

      • You have to give the guy credit however. He does put on a good show!

  • atanguy

    Hi guys and girls:
    I don’t know how many people read this blog and others similar blogs on LENR, let say 150.000 people. Assuming that we put $1 to $100 each on a bank account to buy a 1MW plant from Rossi, we could have it within a few months, test it and if it works we can resale it, maybe with a profit, if not we can get our money back. What do you think?

    • dsm

      Nice thought 🙂

      But someone will run away with the money before it ever gets to Rossi.

      Sorry but we live in a cruel world.

      Doug M

      • atanguy

        Not really, if we create a corporation with some legal protection so the money is in escrow and nobody touch it without the majority of share holders agreement. This should work, any legal advice?

    • Such ideas could be a corporation or some other legal organizations such as a co-operative, non-profit, or public-private partnerships.

      I am interested in this idea but to obtain financing from private investors there has to be a business plan. We need to know the economics and have real proof that the e-cat works. Unknown factors increase risk and it is harder to sell a gamble.

      One community organization near San Francisco
      gets around the shareholder model legally
      by selling “tiles” or a small area of solar surface for solar communities for $100-$200. When one neighborhood is installed solar they move on to the next as a non-profit cooperative.

      A corporate start-up or grassroots organization structure like this inevitably results in a executive-manager + spin off workers or contracts who draw a salary and a second class of passive investors.

      Don’t expect many of the established business entreprenuers in your area to jump on the bandwagon since many are self-interested to what they are most famliar. Don’t spend to much time if you deal with a difficult hardball (note the Rossi-Defkalion split).

      • atanguy

        Well, supposedly 100.000 people pre-ordered the 10KW e-cat from Rossi… Anyway I suppose that such project should be open to some businesses too so we could reach the goal of gathering M$1.5-1.6

      • atanguy

        Thanks Allan, you seem to have experience in this. Personally I would prefer a non profit coop. Any idea how much money you need to create one in the US?

        • There is a registration fee for registering and organization such as a corporation or non profit organization the laws vary by the state or government you register
          with.

          If you do it your self it could cost a few of hundred probably a few times that much with a lawyer.

          That is the easy part. Before you start put together a business plan of your idea there is good business plan software on the market.

          Once your plan is defined and costed out you need enough money to initiate the process of funding and carrying out the play so you might need a couple of months to organize. Don’t start the job unless you can realisticaly affort to write off this organization phase. From there you carry out the plan and monitor the progress against the benchmarks of what you have on paper. You need have adequate resources to carry out the goal.

          • atanguy

            Thanks Allan, good advices. I’m thinking more realistically of the project now. If you think to participate to it, you can ask Frank, our host, for my email.

    • dragon

      Just for your information… I don’t think more then 500 people are reading all the blogs. Ussualy, whoever is reading is posting also. At Defkalion forum I think there were about 20-30 guys (with only about 10 regulars).
      So even if it is 2000 people and all are willing to give money for this you will not get enough.
      We are the “99%”, which means that we are poor (hold less then 1% world wealth).

  • Kim

    I million units

    Where is the production center?

    Time is running out…

    Respect
    Kim

    • Kim

      I hate to keep pounding on this.

      Kim

      • psi

        Then stop.

      • Stanny Demesmaker

        Be patient, in 6 months time we will all know. This story is nearing his ending. I also have to say it’s been a great trip so far 😉

        If you want some answers it’s maybe better to wait a month or 2 for the report of the tests at Defkalion.

        I also want to point out that the e-cat is very small (33cm x 33cm x 6cm) and it’s not a very complex device to make besides some proprietary parts.

        First I thought that the e-cat was going to be revolutionary from the beginning. But in this stage it’s only convenient for people/companies who needs full time heating. And that’s not bad, to much disruption is not good for society.

    • daniel maris

      Lease taken out on disused white goods assembly factory?

      Factories can be fitted out in a few months.

      The work on the robotic assembly could be undertaken elsewhere by a specialist firm.

      Pure speculation on my part as on yours.

  • georgehants

    Occupy4Truth, Democracy, Justice & Peace –
    The former Canadian Minister of Defense spells out the reasons why ET disclosure needs to happen now and how it can boost the clean energy economy.
    http://youtu.be/fAbFrQpfGM0

  • James Pelsor

    Grander and grander dreams.
    Let’s see either the 10 KW or 1 MW plant in unquestionable operation for a few days before we start talking 15 MW plants PLEASE.

  • Commentator

    Has anyone checked out Infinity turbine? They seem to only need a 125F differential to make power.

    http://www.infinityturbine.com/ORC/ORC_Waste_Heat_Turbine.html

    • G

      Very interesting link. You just got my brain turning.

    • Tangled Connections

      They seem to generate about 1Kwh for 2-3gpm flow rate at the temp you stated. Has anyone worked out potential flow rates for the home ecat?

    • Google Greg Giese and Infinity Turbines it appears to be a scam

      • Planet Police

        Very wise to check out Greg Giese. Infinity Turbines is a scam, they run several company fronts and at least two youtube accounts.
        Greg Giese is a conman previously involved in the travel industry. The Infinity Turbine does not actually work.

  • /a/
  • Dave

    If Rossi’s E-Cat tech is for real(it’s not), why doesn’t he just build a 15MW plant and sell the electricity generated to the local electric company? He wouldn’t need to convince anybody that it actually worked.

    • Tom

      Cheers for the heads up that it’s a fake, now I can just give up on it. But I wont.

      It’s gonna take time before he can just build a 15MW plant. The tech is at a very primitive stage. Besides, he doesn’t NEED to convince anybody. Given your prejudgements, I don’t think you could handle the truth anyways.

      Though no-matter what anybody says, it goes without saying, “if the ecat is real”.

  • The home unit is just a dream.
    The 15mw is the one we need.

    • Scott H

      It’s just a matter of time before someone come out with an electrical home unit.

    • Filip

      that’s also my opinion, unless it produces electricity…

    • Robert Mockan

      The advatages of LENR power sources for the individual, is to enable individual freedom. Centralized power from a grid would be controlled just as it is now. Control energy, like control of food, allows the control of people.

      People are waking up to the fact not only have they been controlled, they do not like being controlled, and they will not allow themselves to continue being controlled.

      The home unit is a dream for free people, and a nightmare for the insane oligarchy.

      • dragon

        Very true. Bravo Robert Mockan.
        In the end E-cat technology is not about energy, it is about starting a new world free of the domination of the “insane oligarchy”.

        THAT IS THE ONLY REASON ALL THIS HYPE WAS STARTED BY E-CAT IN THE FIRST PLACE!!!

      • Filip

        I agree, ofcourse, but there is no such thing as a self sustaining home unit, even AR sais so, therefore we will be stuck to the grid for a while. Today you already can be independent from the grid, solar panels for example.

      • sapain

        when i went solar, it was the smartest thing i ever did. was expensive but now i pay zero and pocket lots. no hydro bills, no heating bills, no black outs, no water bills.

        • dragon

          Solar is not feasible in all regions.
          Also, for full electricity production for a detached house or a small building, solar is very expensive.

  • Hey.
    I know exactly what Rossi is talking about now! 🙂

    Siemens Steam Turbines
    (Rossi resently began a relationship with them)

    Steam Turbine SST-150 (up to 20 MW)
    http://www.energy.siemens.com/fi/en/power-generation/steam-turbines/sst-150.htm

    Hook up 15 1MW plants to this puppy – feed it in to the grid = enough to power 10,000 homes+
    (A rough guess – please correct me on this)

    That’s why I feel the home units won’t really take off as when big companies do the above the price for home electricity will plummit – you won’tneed one at home. yee ha!

    Rossi needs to forget about the home E-cats for now and concentrate on automating mauufacture of the commercial types!

    • Tom

      I’m still into the home unit idea. If that can get the job done at a good price, we can start getting rid of all these butt-ugly power lines. Also I could set up home way off the beaten track for a fraction of the price. I suppose there will be a market for both.

      • Kim

        When I was was growing up I often wondered
        what those poles were for, and I would say to
        myself thats dumb.

        Respect
        Kim

    • alex

      Could still get rid of the poles, by transmitting power remotely. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_energy_transfer

      Although some poles are good, especially the ones indoors.

  • Pingback: Rossi Eyes 15 MW Plant in Pursuit of Self Sustaining E-Cat | ColdFusionBlog.net()

  • georgehants

    “Time Crystals” Could Be a Legitimate Form of Perpetual Motion
    Physicists explore the concept that cold states of matter can form repeated patterns in time
    http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=time-crystals-could-be-legitimate-form-perpetual-motion

    • Robert Mockan

      I like the analogy to a superconductor. That phenomena manifests strong magnetic fields, with secondary effects like magnetic field pinning, and has enabled sensitive sensing devices.
      A time crystal might also have secondary effects, like being able to reveal localized time variation in the space-time continuum with changes in time crystal oscillation frequency between different motion states. Certainly there is a need for more understanding of how the universe works for space-time engineering to ever become a reality.

  • Pingback: Nya tester bekräftar kärnkraftsalternativet Rossireaktorn « Bättre lösningar()

  • Jimr

    For anyone interested in non mechanical small electrical generation.
    http://www.mtpv.com/products.php?tab=3
    Not a lot of detail but interesting.

  • JonathanD

    http://www.webwire.com/ViewPressRel.asp?aId=153330

    Siemens acquires energy service provider Pace Global.

    The company advises enterprises in all matters pertaining to energy strategy and the associated risks, particularly in free energy markets.

    ???

    • alex

      Interesting. The headlines might read, “Buy a Siemens E-Cat”

  • sapain

    i wonder what would happen with the iran crisis if rossi stepped out with ecat today.

    • Steve Robb

      Better still what would the world be like if people had accepted Cold Fusion twenty two years ago.

      • Robert Mockan

        And even better would have been the world today if applications of the last great power discovery, 300 years ago, that led to the industrial revolution (the basis of modern civilization) had not been intentionally delayed by over a century.
        http://american_almanac.tripod.com/papin.htm

        • dsm

          Robert

          An interesting read but it is a hindsight document written from a modern perspective and is a tad ‘conspiracy theory’.

          Any battles between groups and technologies back in the 1700s & early 1800s would be far more motivated by profit and glory than any conscious effort to slow the world down.

          The doc seems to make great leaps of faith about motives and developments that are good for attention grabbing rather than providing an accurate historical narrative in the correct context.

          Cheers

          DSM

          • Robert Mockan

            However one chooses to interpret the article, the development of steam engine technology and the applications, were delayed. We can say what we want about motivations for that delay, even that the historical narrative is not in the correct context. But fact is Denis Papin disappeared about 1712, after years of having his efforts to apply his research, discoveries, and inventions, concerning steam power, stymied.

        • Tom Andersen

          Perhaps thats the case, but the Greeks discovered the steam turbine two thousand years ago, and nothing happened then either.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aeolipile

          We waited 17 or more centuries for steam to be put to work.

          • Robert Mockan

            I thank Rossi for getting people talking about LENR again, even if he does run into marketing problems. Too often historically discoveries and technology got lost, sometimes for thousands of years. For example, from 2000 years ago, the name Heron of Alexandria is often only remembered, if at all, with the aeolipile invention. As you say it was a discovery predating the modern steam turbine, but also much more. It was a device incorporating principles of reaction engines used today in steam turbines, jet engines, and for rocket propulsion. Fewer people know he also described in much detail in his book Automatopoietca, automatic machines controlled using principles of programmable computers, made with gears and knotted ropes.

            True that progress is often slow, but “we” did not HAVE to wait 17 centuries to see the technology developed. That delay is more a statement about misplaced faith in “government authority”, than intrinsic limitations about what the rate of progress could be if the natural creativity of every new generation of children were allowed to flourish, instead of being crushed.

  • Robert Mockan

    Mr. Rossi has been making some revealing comments at his Journal of Nuclear Energy web site pertaining to minimum power adjustment and COP of the E-Cat.

    Here is his reply to a question from a “Helmet H.”:

    March 4th, 2012 at 7:04 PM

    Dear Helmut H.:
    We are resolving this problem, probably there will be no minimum, whatever the energy production is, the COP remains 6 (after the 1 hour necessary for the activation).
    Warm Regards, AR.

    And my comment and question (paraphrased) to Rossi:

    A device that requires a minimum temperature of the LENR fuel to operate, that has a gain of 6 not dependent on temperature, requires a forcing function that is independent of temperature. Rather, the E-Cat fuel must be reactive to the forcing function with a linear dependence on the electrical power input (always with a gain of 6). If activation involves heating the reactor to the operating temperature, the assumption has been that average input power after the 1 hour activation is being used to maintain the reactor temperature against heat loss through the insulation of the reactor, to prevent it from falling below the operating temperature. But that is an incorrect assumption if the forcing function is not temperature related.

    Mr. Rossi, what is driving the fuel to produce thermal power with a gain of 6 over the input electric power?

    (I’ll post the answer when or if he replies).

    The nickel hydrogen LENR system, by other researchers, has been described as requiring a “loading” phase 1 of molecular hydrogen being split by contact with the catalyst and being absorbed into the interstitial spaces of the lattice, an “activation” phase 2 where the now atomic hydrogen becomes trapped in the lattice spaces as an ionic compound where it overlaps the strongly interfering d-orbital bands of the catalyst (because of the lattice crystal structure being deformed by the curvature of the nano-particles, maximized with tubular morphology), and a thermal power generating phase 3 where a slight excess of stimulating energy can force the LENR reaction, either causing a Coulomb barrier transparency mediated by periodic phonon oscillation so the ionic hydrogen can approach the nickel nuclei to fuse with it, or the hydrogen to form virtual neutrons that react either with the nickel nuclei or with one another to form helium nuclei.

    The question remains what exactly is happening in that third phase of stimulation energy being imparted to the fuel to make the reaction go.

    In a purely self sustaining system the stimulation energy comes from thermal motion, and is only sufficient at the upper range of thermal motion, thus there is low thermal power out per unit mass of fuel. We are talking milliwatts per gram up to about a watt per gram in published experiments.

    But when extra stimulation energy is imparted to the system the thermal power out can be increased per unit mass of catalyst (or fuel?), but with a lower COP. Experiments have shown 30 times gain with laser energy of certain wavelengths, and less gain but still useful increases with magnetic fields. But COP goes is too low with the published results of those experiments, even though the ratio is increased.

    In amplifiers instability causes oscillation, and even destruction of the amplifier because of positive feedback. To solve the problem one provides negative feedback, or clamps the amplifier gain to some limit by design. If the analogy holds Rossi is clamping the COP at 6 to prevent instability, perhaps caused by thermal hotspots in the catalyst material.

    But back to point. From how Rossi is answering these questions about temperature, minimum E-Cat power out, adjustment range, and COP, I’m thinking that the electrical input power is being used to generate phase 3 stimulation energy, and not just help keep the reactor at operating temperature. For a device that generates heat, that last assumption has never made sense to me but not enough information from Rossi to suggest an alternative until now. Yes, there has been mention of an RF source, but there has never been emphasis placed on it, and today there is even some discounting the possibility that
    it even exists in the E-Cat.

    But there has been mention of an RF generator in the unit. I’m beginning to think that is an actual very critical design feature for increasing the thermal power out per unit mass of the catalyst/fuel composition above what is possible just using thermal stimulation.

    If so then Defkalion may have its RF generator at a different frequency, or is coupling RF energy more effectively to the fuel, that would explain higher COP.

    This is getting into my interest area because although I’ve studied the available LENR documentation completely for catalyst and fuel compositions that demonstrated thermal power, and for the effects of various kinds of stimulation energy to increase the thermal power out to fuel mass ratio, nothing approaching the 100 thermal watts per gram of fuel that Rossi alleges has been published.

    Although my calculations show it is possible, and has been for many years, to build LENR reactors using just thermal stimulation energy, and self sustaining with high COP, the thermal power out to catalyst/fuel ratio is very low, often only in the millwatts per gram. Thus it would take literally metric tons of catalyst/fuel to generate a few thousand thermal watts, and the designs were not cost effective or competitive with conventional energy sources.

    To make a competitive or superior fuel composition, I still NEED that information about how to increase the ratio at high COP. Rossi is keeping that information private, and I understand that.

    I’m interested in all comments on this subject.

    • Lu

      Robert,

      I find your question and commentary difficult to follow so I cannot really comment on it. But from the looks of it, I doubt Rossi will address this as it deals with how the E-Cat works at the fundemental level.

      I took the question and Rossi’s answer to mean that instead of running the E-Cat at full power at 24/7 (and consuming 1.67 kW or 1.2kW during this time) and using a bypass mechanism to regulate the heat, he is working on resolving the problem by being able to regulate the output power by regulating the input power. This overcomes a fundamental problem with the E-Cat as I understood it in that it needs expensive electricity to operate.

      I find two problems with this. One is that Rossi has already claimed that that the E-Cat design is done and now he is making what looks to be a major change. Secondly Rossi should have known about this obvious flaw with the E-Cat and it wasn’t until it became obvious to many of us that the E-Cat will not be economically viable to many people that he is suddenly addressing the problem. I find all of this very suspicious.

      • Robert Mockan

        I agree with the two problems you mention. I suppose Rossi is doing the best he can, but I would have liked to have seen the entire project develop from a business incubator model where round table discussions by a team nailed down all the issues before commencing with production plans. The low COP with electrical input is a no brainer, and Rossi should have realized low COP would kill the product.
        A team discussion by design and application engineers would have seen that detail the first day of analysis.
        Changing design details is not possible with a production model prototype already under UL scrutiny without blowing up his production schedule plans. I hope he can salvage something out of all this. If he would just release the details of making his fuel, he would guarantee the future of LENR technology would happen more quickly than any centralized control attempt over the technology. There are literally thousands of engineers who would be willing, and are waiting, for more opportunities to apply their skills in manufacturing and production (me among them). In the declining economic conditions
        we NEED something like LENR technology to build a better future. But an engine without the fuel is useless!

        • dsm

          Robert

          Rossi had that team, they were called Defkalion but that relationship imploded when Rossi failed to come up with the eCats that Defkalion was founded to sell as the plug-in energy pack for a family of devices they named the hyperion.

          Rossi has been like a rudderless ship ever since. He keeps talking about how he plans to put into a port real soon but then sails past each one as they come into range (port Uni Bolongna, port Uni Uppsala, port Celani, port NASA) & the passengers (us) all wondering when we will see land again.

          🙂

          DSM

          • CuriousChris

            Come on Doug You know why this is. It is the same as Rossi’s previous endeavours (petrol dragon,thermo electrics). He inflates what he has achieved 1000 fold. Sells an impossible dream fails and then moves on to his next inflated claim. He is a dubious character with a dubious past making dubious claims.

            All sound dubious to me

    • dsm

      Robert

      Very good & insightful post – many thanks.

      I too raised this same issue on eCat news but without your excellent detail.

      As I said there, Rossi appears to have turned the eCat into a giant Triac.

      Cheers

      DSM

    • dsm

      Further thoughts on your post.

      “Yes, there has been mention of an RF source, but there has never been emphasis placed on it, and today there is even some discounting the possibility that it even exists in the E-Cat.”

      As far as I could tell from all the early demos, there was no RF component in the testing. But oscillation or excitation does appear to be an important part of activating the LENR effect.

      Interestingly the Piantelli experiments were nearly all done with Nickel plated rods. Piantelli doesn’t appear to have used anything other than heating the reactor in a particular way to trigger the LENR effect.

      Also, many other researchers place great store in the structure of the lattice the H is loaded into. It appears to be a critical factor. Then of course is the W-L reference to the effect being on the surface of the lattice and not happening inside the lattice.

      I have always guessed that the load H travels to the surface as the LENR effect occurs, and replaces the H that was there (on or near the surface) but has alreadybeen transmuted. (I have not read of Helium being a significant output of the process involving Ni+H, just copper).

      DSM

      (PS thanks for a really stimulating & thoughtful post)

      • “As far as I could tell from all the early demos, there was no RF component in the testing.”

        I speculated on several occasions about the purpose of the external ‘band heater’ fitted to the early prototypes. As this was positioned on the outside of the water jacket, little or no heat could have passed to the reactor core (which was actually heated by an axially mounted tubular heater that was clearly visible) and it therefore seemed redundant.

        My speculation was that the stainless steel casing of the ‘band heater’ actually contained a coil that might be driven by a hidden frequency generator cct., either to act as an induction heater or because an oscillating EM field was necessary to trigger the CF process. If the reactor and tubing at this point were made of austenitic stainless steel, the field could have reached the nickel core without significant losses.

        • dsm

          An interesting thought.

          What seems a requirement in all experiments with Hydrated metals with H or D loading, is that the H or D atoms need to vibrate/oscillate in the lattice & if this is a requirement, such an RF coil might be part of Rossi’s ‘catalyst’ although, there is separate evidence that he adds a granulated metal (possibly Pd, someone else suggested another metal but I have forgotten which one).

          Best I could make out from the Piantelli experiments was that the way heat was applied, may have caused the ‘excitation’ required to cause vibration/oscillation.

          Many of the theories say that the transmutation only happens in a lattice, at the surface, and when the (using H) H atoms/molecules vibrate at a resonant frequency while constrained by the lattice structure.

          Certainly requires lots of thinking about.

          DSM

          • If we assume the use of an oscillating EM field, one of the main problems is deciding exactly what it could be doing in this instance. There seem to be many possibilities, ranging through magnetostrictive effects on the nickel lattice, through induction of random eddy currents (electrical flow seems to be used in several CF systems) to direct nucleonic effects, possibly including previously unknown ones. At lease one such unknown nucleonic effect seems to be involved (usual caveats) in the GEC GeNiE system which supposedly uses microwave stimulation of a nickel target to produce a neutron flux (http://www.globalenergycorporation.net/Tech.aspx – information about modus operandi from memory as it no longer seems to be on their site, which was taken down for a period recently).

            Feasible looking cases can be made for the possible importance of any of these phenomena, or even for secondary effects such as inductance heating or ionisation, or creation of random secondary fields by eddy currents. Presumably Rossi stumbled on something using trial and error, Edison style, and may only recently have begun to optimise it, possibly with input from NI.

            Without knowing anything of the frequency of the driver (or even knowing for sure that there is one) or the type of coil or antenna used at the point of application, I don’t think there is too much chance of guessing correctly how this thing may work, on the evidence available.

    • dsm

      Robert

      I just saw Rossi’s reply to you. On reading your question, I think you made it too long & too complicated & the intent got lost.

      Rossi’s Answer was classic Rossi (simplistic in the extreme )

      *********************

      Robert Mockan
      March 5th, 2012 at 11:59 AM

      A device that requires a minimum temperature of the reactant to function, that has a gain of 6 not dependent on temperature, requires a forcing function that is independent of temperature. Rather, the E-Cat fuel must be reactive to the forcing function with a linear dependence on the electrical power input. If activation involves heating the reactor to the operating temperature, there has been an assumption that the average input power after the 1 hour activation is being used to maintain the reactor temperature and provides input power to overcome heat loss from the reactor through the insulation of the reactor. But that is an incorrect assumption if the forcing function is not temperature dependent.

      Mr. Rossi, what is driving the fuel to produce thermal power with a gain of 6 over the input electric power?
      Andrea Rossi
      March 5th, 2012 at 10:03 PM

      Dear Robert Mockan:
      The control system does it.
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.

      • Robert Mockan

        Definitely the intent of the question was not answered directly, but even that reply may be useful. Rossi said the control system drives it. He did not say the heat drives it, or RF drives it, but the control system. What exactly does the control system control? Temperature of the catalyst? Suppose electrical power input is running a heater to keep the catalyst at operating temperature. If the catalyst is not generating any internal thermal power then all the input electrical power is required to keep the reactor at the operating temperature. If thermal power is drawn from the reactor it needs to be “controlled” to increase the generated thermal power by the catalyst, otherwise the temperature would drop. But if you start taking heat from the reactor how is it being controlled to maintain generated thermal power out, if an electric heater is the baseline for maintaining the minimum operating temperature? That could only mean the catalyst is generating enough thermal power in excess of what is required from the heater. Thus, in conclusion, the catalyst is more than able to supply thermal power to power the entire reactor since it has a COP of 6, if it is purely thermally activated and maintained!

        But that is not what the design indicates,given that it has a start up interval AND periodic “boosting” with eletric power, for the average electricity input.

        Rossi has described operating specifications that are NOT consistent with a pure thermal maintenance of internal generated thermal power by the catalyst.

        So mabe RF, maybe magnetic field oscillation, but that electrical power in IS beiong used to “control” the catalyst generated thermal power…somehow. Not to make LENR happen, but to increase the thermal power per catalyst unit mass ratio.

        Obviously if the electrical input is just to run a heater, Rossi could greatly reduce that by using superior insulation like aerogel packing around the chamber. Over the life time of a reactor the higher cost of that insuation would be more than offset by the annual savings in electric power input to the reactor.

        Although I still have the question exactly how is he doing it, the answer should be easy enough to focus in on once a basic catalyst composition is available for experiments. If when just self sustaining it generates 1 watt pert gram, then try all the reasonable external stimulation methods to increase that ratio. We do know what Rossi is NOT using. No x radiation, no laser power. Microwaves affecting the nickel electron d-orbitals? Magnetic fields oscillating? RF? Maybe polarized?

        There are not a lot of possibilities. Sooner or later it is going to be found out.

        • Robert Mockan

          There is another possibility, having to do with documented behavior of nickel and hydrogen in historical experiments. Thermal power is often increased during a “lowering” of the gas pressure, causing a net diffusion OUT of the catalyst. That would mean it is the changing of state between atomic hydrogen and interstital ionic hydrogen in the lattice that mediates thermal power generation. If Rossi is using a metal hydride to provide hydrogen, it may be one showing marked sorbtion and release of hydrogen over small temperature range. The electric heater COULD be used to provide that function of altering the hydride temperature, thus causing the internal hydrogen gas pressure to increase and decrease periodically, thus affecting hydrogen diffusion into and out of the catayst, thus increasing the LENR generated thermal power. Again, this should be easy enough to check out when a proper apparatus for the experiment is made.

        • Robert Mockan

          Does any body remember if Rossi has said anything about dc or ac power being used in his early protoype experiments? It is possible if the LENR thermal power increase is dependent on pressure diffusion within the metal catalyst, what he might have been doing initially is changing the pressure of the entire reactor with external heat source, using the “band” that has been mentioned before. If so, he had to keep the reactor with internal hydrogen pressure, and applied sthe gas laws for increasing the pressure given constant volume by increasing the temperature. THAT would have a postive feedback effect and would make the system unstable. He could improve control by using a hydride compound heated separately to provide the pressure range changes as it sorbs and releases hydrogen, by periodic pulsing with electric power input to the hydride compound container.
          Defkalion would undoubtedly be using something similar to control theri system. So, does Defkalion have a constant COP=20, or is that periodic changing between two pressure levels of their reactor?

          I’ve has some previous thought about a hydride compound being used, but more to supply atiomic hydrogen to the metal surface than for use to pressure cycle the system.

          My gut intuition is that there is substance to these speculations. I have a feeling Rossi is going to have some really stiff competition unless he starts some in depth R&D on how to improve the E-Cat. For starters, try other metals than nickel. Try to get the temperature higher, COP higher, and the thermal power out per unit mass of catalyst higher. From what he has stated previously he is getting 100 watts thermal watts per gram, but even early experiments with electrolytic cold fusion cells using thin palladium films by Bush and Eagleton were releasing kilowatts per gram. The output power was very low in the cells because the thin films were very thin, and not much mass, and they usually came apart as the metal structure was damaged by the power level… and they were being cooled by the water based electrolyte used in the experiments.
          But it would seem 100 watts per gram might be on the low side to what should be possible with gas loading of the metal.

          • Robert Mockan

            Sorry about all the mistyping..brain runs faster than my mouth, and much faster than my typing. I seldom engage in typing or talking.

    • Greg Goble

      The increased vibrational energies of radio frequencies are found in the standing waves of harmonics. Hotspots cause failure in LENR environments, hence problems arise from trying to increase COP. Higher pressure loading of hydrogen as well as higher vibrational octaves may result in a higher COP… even more important may be the role of the environmental shape of the containment vessel that will lead to stronger harmonicly enduced standing waves in the RF bandwidth. Even out the reaction with an understanding of vibrational harmonics operating evenly thru-out a nanoparticle lattice. PRACTICE makes perfect.

  • Meanwhile, while Rossi plays with people…

    An article appeared in the Los Angeles Times Sunday edition about the desert tortoise. Apparently the critter has not evolved for 200 million years and managed to survive as-is, until now. The solar ranches out in the Mojave desert are mauling their habitat and may cause their extinction.

    If Rossi came out and proved to people that his little invention works then the solar developments would come to a grinding halt immediately. In time to save the desert tortoise. He claims the military bought his first e-cat. So let me get this straight, the government knows that cold fusion exists and yet they continue to destroy irreplaceable desert habitat? Not to mention they continue to spend millions of billions of dollars to subsidize the green programs even after knowing that they won’t stand a chance in the marketplace?

    • Jimr

      May cause their extinction? Do you really think that a few thousand acres have that drastic effect. They reside primarily in Az, Ca, Nev and Utah. Studies indicate primary problem is poaching,collect as pets,auto impact , disease, cattle damage and of all things,ravens.

    • alex

      Sorry for the conspiracy theory, but they know about the technology, and are perfectly capable of shutting it down anytime they want to. It’s politics, the money for these other projects has already been spent anyway, the construction just hasn’t finished. If Rossi’s invention takes a dime out of a politicians pocket, we wont here from him again. We will all think he was a hoax, because that’s what the government does.

    • Greg Goble

      Programs under way were initiated many years ago… investment dollars are under risk and may soon fail. Solar, wind, hydro, nuclear, deep oil, clean coal, shale oil, tar sands, fracking gas, and hot fusion may have been a bad investment. As with the following…
      Time will tell.

      http://philadelphia.pointslocal.com/story/philadelphia/733133/-guest-column-saving-alcator-c-mod
      This is something significant… billions invested… now an abrupt end. Presidential decision… unpopular… AT this time. Will a future explanation for this decision include a presidential report on LENR science and energy devices? Solid popular plank for the upcoming election?

      • My, how they squeak when the gravy train dries up! The main objection seems to be the loss of jobs, oh and of course, “Fusion is the energy of our future…”

        Unfortunately the reason for cutting this project is just as likely to be a decision to build more fission reactors as anything else. Fukushima? Rings a bell…

  • Lord Thunder aka mike

    Ok, so we go from 1mw to 10kw to 15mw right? i was so hopeful but at some point you have to call a spade a spade!!! whats it going to be next a terawatt unit? i see no value in any of this for a home unit, so anyone looking for CHEAP heat, gas, and electric, as well as powering a car or truck for personal use ALL IN ONE! go to http://www.woodgas.net and get busy! Add some wind and solar and call it a day. Rossi is ….i hate to say, even with his background, WAY OVER HIS HEAD!! Wait for DARPA or NASA they have the money, the technology, the people and other resources to MAYBE make this work. and please, dont go off on the whole utopian anarchy star trek ramble. this IS the real world right now. sorry if i hurt your feelings but if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck …. guess what…. its a DAMN DUCK!!

    • daniel maris

      The duck thing has been done a million times. Not funny.

      It’s not unusual for inventors in new fields to develop several products.

      That said, I think most people are agreed now that Rossi only has a few months, to Autumn of this year to show he really has something. I say that on the basis of what HE has said to date.

  • Roger Bird

    There are a lot of comments. Has anyone posted the idea that it is easier to con one rich guy than hundreds of regularly financed people?

  • georgehants

    From Rossi, does anyone work for Siemens.
    Dear Harold,
    We must make electric power efficiently, otherwise we lose the advantage of the COP and the E-Cat makes no sense. The good new is that for the industrial plants, thanks to Siemens, I think we are very close to a wonderful stupendous thing. Wait and see.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • Brian

    The electricity generation argument is an indication of an underlying problem.

    The e-cat can not run self-sustained. Apparently it needs electricity to generate heat so it can generate heat.
    So it can not generate enough heat to keep itself going.

  • Toman D.

    Dear Sirs.E-cat could be self sustained, maybe additional diesel-generator is necessary for case of unstability, but first question is end of story about 10MW plant.When this plant start to produce energy (for secret customer), things will be clearer.We waiting too long ….

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  • Bruno

    This whole thing has gone on for so long that it has devolved into nothing but mental masturbation. We have absolutely no proof that Rossi’s ecat worked, no proof thatvthere really was a buyer of the 1 MW unit, no proof that UL is looking at the 10 KW prototype (if one even exists), no proof that a factory is being set up to manufacture home ecats etc… It’s just Rossi’s word, which at this point has very low credibility.