Large and Small E-Cats : What Would be Your Choice?

For the purpose if this post, let’s take a leap of faith and assume for the moment that Andrea Rossi has what he says, and that sometime in the near future both large (industrial) and small (domestic) E-Cats will be on the market in the not too distant future. Rossi is now seems to be saying that he has cracked the temperature barrier with the industrial E-Cats, and they are able to produce steam temperatures high enough to produce electricity efficiently. He has also said that only the industrial E-Cats will be running at high temperatures — safety concerns will limit the domestic E-Cats to heating relatively low levels, enough to provide heat and hot water to homes.

This new development raises an interesting question in my mind. Would a heat and electricity producing industrial E-Cat steal the thunder of a smaller domestic heating unit? For many people, even though they see the benefits of cheap heat, an energy technology that does not produce electricity is somewhat limited in its usefulness. An LENR Electical plant churning out Megawatts of electricity from just a few grams of nickel per year would be something that could capture the attention of people all over the world, and one would expect that if they came on the market they would be highly desirable for businesses, communities, utilities and states. It wouldn’t be as radical a solution as having an E-Cat generator in every home — a conventional grid would still be necessary to distribute power, but existing infrastructures would allow speedy deployment and adaptation to E-Cat plants.

If cheap E-Cat generated electricity were made available through the grid, domestic E-Cat heaters might be less desirable for many who might opt to use electric heaters in homes and forgo the expense and trouble of having individual E-Cat heaters installed. On the other hand, there will certainly be those who will want the independence and cost savings that E-Cat heaters will bring, even if electricity is not part of the package.

Down the road, it may well be that domestic E-Cats can produce electricity safely, but it seems that might take some time. So would you take the plunge and buy an E-Cat heater as soon as it came on the market? Or enjoy the benefits of E-Cat electricity from an industrial plant? Or both?

  • My home consumes about $1500 in heating oil per year. For me, even if the price is the most recently quoted of $2500, I’d be in like a dirty shirt. That said, I’d be showing my e-cat to my friend who works for the electric company. The faster they could get on line the better.

    That said, five years after release they’ll release a home-sized heat and electricity unit, and I can say “bye” to the electric company and the oil delivery company. It’ll take a bit longer for me to rid myself of the gas pump.

    • alex

      Honestly, electrical heaters in homes are half as efficient as oil boilers. This is because no energy conversion is 100% efficient, so if the electric company created the energy before it came to your house it lost, and as you drive amps through the heating coils it loses again. I pay 2600 for the year in oil, but if I converted to electric it would be 5400. So even with the Bigger E-Cat, the efficiency at the home would still allow natural gas and oil to be competitive for heating. It would surely lower the cost for electrically heated homes, and your carbon footprint would be much lower. Not to mention much cheaper for the utility company to produce it, so a breakeven would still be a win. However, without question, the home e-cat heating unit, would undermine the efficiency of any other boiler, because you are driving conversion at the source.

      P.S. To anyone who thinks they can buy multiple home e-cats to try to produce electricity you will be unpleasantly surprised. Unless you can find or build a turbine that can “Efficiently” produce electricity at the lower temperatures. The reason it won’t work is because of an effect called the Rankine Cycle. You can read about it here:

      http://njchp.rutgers.edu/files/Steam_Turbines.pdf

      • Warthog

        If the energy is cheap enough, “efficiency” doesn’t matter. There are gensets designed specifically to use low temperature heat sources using working fluids like ammonia or freon. Their original purpose was to capture “waste heat” in the form of electricity.

        I don’t understand why people are so hung up on the supposed necessity to use a high-temperature steam turbine.

        • GreenWin

          Correct. Small, low temp steam turbines are one solution to turning 200C steam to electrical energy. Blacklight Power Inc. uses an even more sophisticated process to directly convert thermal to electrical energy.

          • I didn’t know Blacklight Power was doing anything. Have you more information about who is using their products?

          • GreenWin

            Zed, if we told you that… we’d have to e-liminate you.

        • This is almost true. However, the stated minimum COP of the home e-cat is 6. If you can’t generate electricity at at least 1/6th, or about 15% efficiency then “efficiency” does matter.

      • Loses in heating coils — delightful!

  • Stringbustr

    Well, I’ll just buy two of the home units, because combined there will be
    Enough heat to produce electricity.
    Done!!

  • john E

    I would do so for the heating capabilities as I now have separate vendors for electricity and heat. It would save $ and provide independence and lower carbon emissions especially in the time until the electric grid might be upgraded.

    The fact that Mr Rossi has suggested the possibility of upgrading the domestic unit to one that would also create electricity would just be a bonus.

  • Rui

    I would go for both. Gas heating is now 2/3 of my utilities bill so the heater would be mandatory.

  • Pimp

    I don’t really believe Rossi when he says that he is interested in doing this for the betterment of mankind. I think that he wants to make money. He should have open-sourced all of this, by now, if he was interested in the betterment of mankind – like that guy over in Oregon with the perpetual motion wheel. (No, I am not vouching for it – just saying that he did, at least at one point, have plans to open source the wheel)

    • alex

      Who cares, let him make money, at least he won’t bury the technology after he purchases the rights to it like most companies would have. This is probably the best method the rest of the world will take this tech seriously, and get on board.

    • AstralProjectee

      Of course he has to make money doing this otherwise he would be out of a job. But he also wants to help the world’s energy problems.

      Peace!

  • Hampus

    It looks like Rossi are trying to make big plants that he can sell to electricity company’s. Defkalion on the other hand are going for smaller devices straigt away and I think this is smart. In the end there will be no electricity company’s. Everyone will just have a small cold fusion box at home.

    The electric grid is soo ugly. There is cables everywhere destroying beautiful landscaps. Just for that reason we need cold fusion boxes in our homes.

    • GreenWin

      There are 660 THOUSAND MILES of wires and cables and high voltage lines in North America alone!

  • georgehants

    For me a working cop6+ cold Fusion device, any size, any shape, any colour from anywhere will be wonderful.
    Who is copying the school children’s design, what results are they getting.
    Is the scientific administration traveling in bus loads to see the MIT experiment.
    Are they ready to shovel cash by the lorry load into Cold Fusion for young brilliant, unpolluted by Dogma scientists to do the Research, or as with many subjects are they still in an irrational state of Denial to protect their own selfish reputations and positions.

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  • Since the beginning I wish that the basic unit could be available for testing and developpment for R&D departements ( for example domestic heating boilers manufacturer to prepare really usable units ( for example, hybrid systems who can use gas or fuel for peaks or e-cat cartridge replacement period )

  • Lagwin

    I would go for both if i could…true i could use the electric gen one to provide heat as well but why waste it on heat when you could get a household unit for that…depending on how much electricity is generated from the large unit you could have a street buy one together.

  • georgehants

    The Growing Distrust of Science
    Posted by martinspribble on May 6, 2012 in Featured, Science, Thoughts | 56 comments
    A growing phenomenon in the world is the distrust of science as a valid way to view the world. It is caused by a number of factors, including religious affiliation, political conservatism, lack of a sound education, and fear. And it is particularly bad in the USA, and driven by the conservative movement in their political sphere, by people such as Sarah Palin, and in the religious sphere by people like Ken Ham from Answers in Genesis.
    Between 1974 and 2010 the number of conservatives who say they trust information coming from science and scientific fields has dropped from 48% to just over 34%, a drop of 14% in just under 40 years suggested in a study published in The American Sociological Review.
    In the political spheres, and especially in the rhetoric spewed by the conservative presidential candidates, we hear the distrust in science being depicted as untrustworthy, and the message is twofold; denial of science because of the perceived inability for science to make up its mind about facts (science is always proving itself to be wrong), and denial of scientists due to their perceived position as elitists in the community. People distrust science from this standpoint because they don’t understand science and the scientific method, and are bitter because they feel they are being told what to do by an elitist few.
    http://martinspribble.com/archives/2432

    • GreenWin

      People distrust scientists – not science per se. They distrust scientists because they are shown to be flawed, failed, weak, corrupt and immoral. All perfectly good reasons for distrust.

      The story of LENR is an excellent example – we posted yesterday the saga of the Italian “Report 41” – a study of cold fusion at the very HIGHEST levels of government. Ordered by Dr. Carlo Rubia a Nobel laureate, Director General of CERN (world’s most prestigious science center) and Chair of ENEA Energy and Environment Agency – a pillar of scientific achievement.

      But when the results of the 36 month study demonstrated hard evidence of cold fusion’s nuclear origins, Dr. Rubia went silent. He refused to support the study HE ordered! Taxpayer money wasted. Clearly a man who has been compromised, corroded, corrupted. GreenWin post at 5:50pm: http://bit.ly/KLNlWR

      Same with the pack of thieves who doctored or denied results of P&F experiments at MIT and elsewhere. Same with Climategate, tobacco, pharma, and big ag racketeering. Same with the hot fusion boondoggle where 60 years and $200 Billion taxpayer dollars have produced absolutely ZERO useable energy. While these same scientists whine that LENR is a fraud. Pot – meet kettle.

      Science will be ever less trusted and revered until it polices itself, cleans up these glaring discrepancies. Only a thorough purge of its corrupt old school ranks will refresh science stature in the community. Until then, it grows more insular, an aging institution bereft of the moral and ethical backbone that leads good people and community.

      • Robert Mockan

        I posit distrust of science or scientists can be alleviated by people becoming more literate about science and mathematics so they can understand the physical world about them and draw conclusions consistent with empirically acquired information.

        • georgehants

          Do you mean like their wonderful appreciation of the possibilities of Cold Fusion etc.
          Science is becoming the laughing stock of society and rightfully so.
          Their continual denial and ignorance of every subject beyond a steam engine is a joke.
          The World is not material and reductionist it is far more and until scientist wake-up and start looking at reality and not 19th century Dogma then they will be rightly condemned for their closed-minded stupidity.

          • Robert Mockan

            (sigh)

            That is what I said, in other words. “Empirically acquired information” in the context of cold fusion *should* have motivated more scientists to study the phenomena. The experimental evidence was …irrefutable… early on. (not necessarily from the original experiments of P&F, because there were very real problems replicating their work, but within a couple years later the reality of cold fusion using palladium and also other materials had been confirmed). What I said in my post is that if people (in general) were more literate about science (how it works) and mathematics (so they can follow at least the simpler hypothesis), they would not have relied on skeptical scientists saying cold fusion was fraud, but could have concluded on their own (as I and many others did), that cold fusion was very real, based on the “empirically acqired information”. Admittedly for me that meant attending seminars on the subject, speaking with scientists working in the field, and doing my own experiments. But given the importance of the subject, it would have been very appropriate for …many…other people to have done the same. All that would have been required is that one ..focus..on understanding the physical universe oneself, and not depend on others to do their thinking for them.

        • GreenWin

          Well put Robert. But there is an obligation now to house clean the manipulators out of the science business. To restore publishing to reasonable, unbiased distribution e.g. Open Source journals. And to sweep OUT the old school egotist “elite” who toady up to industry rather than pure scientific method.

          • Obligation or not – it ain’t gonna happen until those responsible retire or die.

            “A new scientific truth does not triumph by convincing its opponents and making them see the light, but rather because its opponents eventually die, and a new generation grows up that is familiar with it.” Max Planck

  • “One that you hold is better than that you will have”. As such, since
    the technical possibility is offered, I prefer here both and quickly.

  • Jason

    I am an engineer and I have investigated using cogeneration in my home. The problem with steam for home heating is that the steam plant must be properly operated and maintained to be safe. Most people are not interested in learning enough to do that. A high pressure steam explosion in a home can kill everything in the home from people to plants instantly. A hydronic heating plant employs atmospheric pressure steam that is not so dangerous.
    The domestic e-cat apparently requires significant electrical power to operate. People who use electric heat would gain an immediate benefit. The commercial e-cat would greatly reduce the cost of centrally generated electricity. Perhaps a compromise would be to provide the power generation e-cat on the town and city level of generation and domestic e-cats for heat and hot water. A reasonably efficient though low cost sterling engine might suffice for domestic power generation. Perhaps Mr Rossi might be considere a gas heated e-cat.

    • Robert Mockan

      As an engineer you should also understand that a mono-tube flash steam generator solves the problems and dangers of a steam boiler explosion. That is why they were developed for motive power applications using steam engines. The other issue about LENR being unstable at high temperature has nothing to do with danger, but rather “burning out” the catalyst. It simply stops working. Offer the correct system feedback controller and catalyst composition, and LENR becomes “stable”.
      Let us not start a new mythology that only centralized electric power generation can keep people “safe”. The promise of LENR is to enable energy independence.

      • That is true, but I think Jason’s suggestion that power might be generated at local level rather than centrally, with the grid acting simply as a balancing, storage and top-up mechanism, is a good one.

  • Robert Mockan

    I would obtain the catalyst and build my own reactor for steam for an engine. And I would offer the plans to make catalyst, and catalyst, for sale so any other person could also do so.

    • dragon

      Sounds just about right.

      • Barry

        Sign me up!

  • racribeiro

    For me the solution would be medium size distributed e-cats at neighbor hood level. Big enough to be efficient, small enough to fit into a warehouse and me managed at local level by a local entity.

    Nevertheless I don’t think that would be a big problem for a long time. If the cop is high enough, efficiency starts to be less and less important. At the end we will have electriciy, even if not in a very efficient way.

    The grid will be there for peaks and to distribute/move power between zones. The coal/gas/oil centralized electricity will be a thing of the past.

    • Tom

      The gardeners or cops can take over the maintenance.

  • Karl

    It is some benefit to use the E-Cat to heating water to heat a home but at a COP 6. However, the need to use fairly costly electricity to operate the E-Cat from the grid, would significantly reduce the advantage over my traditional remote city based water heating solution. I strongly believe that there is a need to supply the electric power as well to keep the E-cat in self sustainable mode. To my understanding this is what Rossi use to claim him self.

  • Kevin Kingery

    I agree with you on ammonia or freon! check this out Geothermal Power in Alaska Holds Hidden Model for Clean Energy

    Read more: Geothermal Power in Alaska Holds Hidden Model for Clean Energy – Popular Mechanics

    http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/environment/4245896

    this was good.

  • BKochs

    Heat should be produced there where it is needed, otherwise the losses would be too high. The electricity companies here in germany offer a very reliable service. The electricity producing device should be as reliable as their product. I simply can’t remember the last electricity shutdown.
    But there is another market segment rossi has not thought of: That’s what we call ‘Fernwärme’ : a power station produces waste heat and delivers this via pipes to the homes in a radius about 500 meters.
    Or a e-cat is used for heating an public swimming pool and the waste electrity is supplied to the homes nearby. Having a swimming pool heated to 30°Celsius even in winter is a benefit. There is a market for a medium size e-cat for public and farming applications.

  • vbasic

    Large. Very Large. I want them on the grid. Brilliouin sized. They say they can do 400ºC to 500ºC that can drive power plant turbines.
    Maybe most of us here would want LENR in the home. But for hundreds of millions of people, they don’t want to mess with home kits.
    Just like with solar or wind, most people don’t want to bother with installation, maintenance and aggravation. They just want to turn on a switch and have that grid power. For example, even in sunny environmentally friendly California, 95% or more do NOT have home solar panels. I think going big will be the fastest way to get off fossil and nuclear fission for making electricity.

    • GreenWin

      In which case you need to convince utilities, DOE and Commerce Dept. to invest in and support LENR development.

  • Since we are delving into the realm of fantasy I will imagine I live in a northern climate with a great need for heat and no cooling. I would initially purchase space heaters costing $250 each, (the cost of retrofitting an existing system would push the cost up considerably) able to put out a total of 2000 watts each, with an electrical input of 1/6 that (333 watts). They would pay for themselves in no time even with the need for input electrical power. In five to ten years, when the small and hopefully reliable power generating units come along I would purchase such a thing even if it was not able to break even with the grid just so I could be off the grid and prompt its dismantling (its called voting with my money). Hopefully by that time a more usable battery powered vehicle would come along and I would be set.

  • Lu

    As my heat source the E-Cat is only marginally more economical compared to NG although there are benefits beyond $$$ especially of the electricity used to drive the domestic E-Cat is derived from the industrial E-Cat. Who knows maybe with utilities relying on industrial E-Cats for electricity the home ECat will become that much more economical.

    In Japan they’ve off-lined all of their nuclear power plants (30% of their electricity generation) and they may never come back on-line. Maybe Japan will become and early adopter of using industrial E-Cats. In the US it will take a very long time for utilities to transition from carbon based sources to the LENR based sources even if it is cheaper–look at NG now.

    • Agreed 100%.

      I have recently designed/installed a primarily NG fired CH system, with auxiliary input from log burners, and solar water heating when available.

      We live by choice live in coolish internal conditions (others claim its like a freezer in winter), the house is quite well insulated, and overall it is pretty economical. I’m not sure an ecat heater would be cost effective, especially given the extra complexity and the probable need for heat-dumping to external radiators or a thermal store if control is slow (as AR has said it is I believe).

      Electricity on the other hand costs an absolute fortune here (UK) – not that I expect bills to fall by more than pence even when most fossil fuel boilers have been replaced. That’s just not the name of the game for the large ‘energy providers’.

      Even so it would mean the end of nuclear power (even here, where a mixture of political corruption, technical ignorance among politicians, and sheer blazing stupidity means the UK will be one of the last nuclear bastions to fall) and that will be a major prize for us Brits.

  • Rogerborg

    Write in option: extant.

    Less smoke, fewer mirrors, more shipping units.

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  • X-prize

    Andrea Rossi claims to be an expert on Einstein, now I know what they have in common: Only Rossi uses a keyboard instead of a pen.
    .
    “During his Zurich stay the woman doctor, Paulette Brubacher, asked the whereabouts of his [Einstein’s] laboratory. With a smile he took a fountain pen out of his breast pocket and said: ‘here’.
    — Albert Einstein — C. Seelig, Albert Einstein: A Documentary Biography (1956)”

    *************************************************
    *************************************************

  • GreenWin

    Last summer’s Rasmussen poll shows 69% of the public believe scientists falsify data:

    http://bit.ly/rsvmCq

    Gene Mallove’s expose of MIT’s falsification of its P&F experiments further testify to corrupt scientists. Dr. Peter Hagelstein’s recent accusation against a “famous MIT physicist” who cancelled his independent LENR research grant (likely Ronnie Parker or Ballinger – the two old coots who libeled P&F) is more evidence.

    Then there is the publicly documented suppression of ENEA’s “Report 41” at the highest levels of government; the silencing of SPAWAR, the suspicious DOE second LENR “study”, and the utter absence of free press covering a stunning humanitarian science…

    The corruption is waking up millions and the “scientists” are deservedly scared:

    Standford population & climate kook Paul Erlich said in a 2010 Nature Editorial: “…that his climate colleagues are at a loss about how to counter the attacks. “Everyone is scared sh**less, but they don’t know what to do.”

    Sure you do Paul. Try telling the truth.

  • What’sUP?

    Andrea Rossi claims to be an expert on Einstein, now I know what they have in common: Only Rossi uses a keyboard instead of a pen.
    .
    “During his Zurich stay the woman doctor, Paulette Brubacher, asked the whereabouts of his [Einstein’s] laboratory. With a smile he took a fountain pen out of his breast pocket and said: ‘here’.
    — Albert Einstein — C. Seelig, Albert Einstein: A Documentary Biography (1956)”

    *************************************************
    *************************************************

    • GreenWin

      Perceptive, What’s UP.

  • Al D

    I think that initially we will have to go with fossil fueled power plant replacement. This (probably with some government stimulation) should significantly reduce the kwh electricity rate to the homeowner. The grid is in place and would currently provide the most efficient distribution system for home power. However, the maintenance cost of the grid is also a large part of the current cost of electricity and it will continue to grow with inflation due to wages, right-of-way, and material costs. Home or neighborhood or community generation units will become more economically attractive as future e-cats become more compact, efficient, capable of higher temperatures, and more maintenance free for homeowners. People could then feed power back to the local grid and charge a car battery overnight. Recent advances in Stirling engine powered generators and liquid salt heat storage could provide 24/7 power and heat. (see Infinia corp and Halotechnics corp) These will never be as efficient generating systems as high temperature turbines, but if the energy source is cheap enough, who cares?

    Central power plant generation will always be more efficient for concentrated user communities such as business districts, industrial complexes, and apartment complexes.

    • GreenWin

      @A1D – good points – except the introduction of LENR as a home water heater appliance is far simpler and better economically for consumers. At e-cat pricing <$1k, and annual cost of $10-20, there is only upside for home owners.

      We have proposed market segmentation – utilizing (DOE approved, NG fueled) "District" CCHP in medium demand industrial areas. LENR distributed water heaters and CHP in 50MW demand areas.

      This provides participation from traditional utility grid, new CCHP gas-fired, and LENR technologies. Win Win Win…

      • GreenWin

        SHOULD be LENR for 50MW demands.

      • Al D

        I agree on the home water heaters. However, as was mentioned in prior posts, how many homeowners will want to do the installation and periodic care required? If the LENR is combined and sold in a commercial water heater unit this would seem to create a business opportunity for a periodic maintenance service. How much would this cost the homeowner and is it still viable for him?

        • GreenWin

          For some reason my less than symbol does not post… LESS than 50MW would be the LENR domain.

          We have proposed for a long while major utilities adopt LENR and brand their own appliances. e.g. Centrica, EDF Energy, E.ON Energy branded water heaters are offered to customers along with installation and a periodic maintenance contract. This represents an entirely NEW revenue stream to utilities. When genset modules or upgraded LENR / CHP units are available the sale, installation and maintenance replaces utility meter losses.

          Utilities will lose some customers and gain new ones. Those with foresight and vision will excel. Others will join the buggy whip.

        • Andrew Macleod

          NAtural gas prices are cheap right now.. Rossi has stated that the domestic ecat would be an “appendage”. An addon to supplement your current heating requirements. The problem with this is your not going to see a great reduction in your bill. You still get your current “delivery” charge and all the little nickel and dime charges that actually add up to more than the fuel charge. Moreover you now have an increased electricity bill due to the operating costs of the ecat. If your currently using natural gas you might end up paying more.

  • Edison is not going to give up their monopoly any time soon. They have real estate easements and underground conduit or overhead power lines in place. Currently 1 kwh costs roughly 14 cents. 4 cents goes to power generation. 10 cents goes to god’s gift to humanity: the 1% who own stocks in quasi-government corporations that provide us with power. So with LENR we’ll pay 11 cents per kwh instead of the current 14. Whoopie! Big deal!

    • Robert Mockan

      The grid is paid for. And the 10 cents that goes to Satan (God’s “gift” to humanity?) we can do without when the monopoly is broken up. Even the 4 cents is excessive when you can purchase a power generating system that pays off quickly, and has a operating lifetime longer than the owner. And the 1 cent? Let them go find jobs.

    • Rossi says cost of production 1 cent per Kwh.

      This is a reasonable estimate for the technolgy and he still makes a big profit on e-cats after
      the cost of production.

      The .pdf from the Austrailan licensee estimated
      3.5 cents for the industrial e-cat I think likely a bit inflated.

      The real solution is off the grid smaller units
      that can be financed outside of big producer
      utilities.

    • GreenWin

      Edison has no choice. LENR allows home owners to disconnect from the grid and pay maybe 10% of their old electric bill. As R Mockan says… Let ’em go get jobs.

      • On the ranch …

        http://tj.jtusz.com/construction/power/

        I could have a well or … I could pay $25/month + $1 for 750 gallons.

        A well costs $30-40K to drill. A water meter costs $7K to install. Well water has to be pumped. Pump might break down. There needs to be some sort of temporary storage.

        Even if you can do-it-yourself it might not always be a good choice to do it yourself.

        After I finish building I rent the place out for $1000/month. As a landlord I add the cost of utilities to the rent and my head doesn’t hurt. No excuse that the rent is not going to be paid this month because the pump was acting up when I wasn’t there.

        I suspect a similar situation would be true of utility power vs do-it-yourself home ecat.

        • GreenWin

          Why would it be DIY?? Edison (better known as CON-Edison in NY) is ignorant to pass up licensed, branded LENR hot water heaters/CPU appliance revenues. And a passive grid connect for backup power is a minimal cost.

  • Kim

    I would be satisfied if I could buy
    one the size of a toaster if I could
    see it function in my home at any level
    for christsake!

    Respect
    KIm

    • I’m beginning to feel that way. Since I use a space heater of only 800 watts I could do with a toaster/space-heater.

    • Andrew Macleod

      I’d like to use one to make a coffee for myself (sorry I don’t drink tea).

  • Harold

    I wonder if it might be possible to combine an ecat with a solar concentrator device which would add the energy necessary to efficiently create electricity? If for example 80% of the energy came from the ecat and 20% from solar, the solar concentrator need not take up much space. Another option to get the last 20% might be natural gas, when the sun is not shining.

    • Peswiki reports globalsolarsystems.com has an
      order for 4500 1MW solar/wind units to produce
      hydrogen fuel.

      The difference is it not a big secret and the buyers are not afraid to say who they are.

      It was suggested that the second e-Cat buyer
      would make themselves publicly known months
      ago and this statement raised some expectations.

      This order is likely less cost effective
      yet we are in the dark about the numbers
      of any more 1MW e-Cat orders of the last 5 months. It does indicate the demand for clean renewable energy in this case for India.

  • This is a bit off topic but have been thinking about the video of “The Atom Unexplored” offered some few posts prior (http://bambuser.com/v/2610167) and in particular the presentation by Carpenteri just prior to Hagelstein’s. Carpenteri suggested transmutation of elements occurs when the rock samples are fractured. The embrittlement of metals due to the action of hydrogen and at temperature is well known. If the process could be pushed to the limit and the sample start out as a solid sample and be fractured to a powder as it is subject to the action of the hydrogen forced into its matrix, I suppose there might occur some amount of fusion. The problem would be to control the process to enhance the fusion results and finally to push the fracture process to the point that the sample is reduced to dust. In that case it seems the hydrogen is both the catalyst and the fuel.

  • tom h

    Big deal?

    The price isnt important at the moment as long as its at least cost competitive with fossil fuels (which it will be and some), then it is a good thing as it will help replace the burning of dirty, poisonous hydrocarbons.

    Hydrocarbons that are not only polluting our atmosphere at an alarming rate, but are also increasing at ever higher prices due to there gradual depletion.

    Ever higher prices which are creating the conditions for the end of economic growth, which in turn are causing economic problems and crashes which are only to worsen.

    Stop thinking of the price and look at the bigger picture. Humanity desperately needs LENR for a number of reasons.

    • tom h

      reply to charles ponzi

      • I agree. And I raise you. In the last article I made a post about being the owner of e-cat licenses for the island of Majuro. By the time the e-cats are made available the place will be underwater due to global warming. Price is important only to the 1% club who is profiting from the world’s misery. Rossi is not revealing information about the e-cat because supposedly he’s trying to sell it. He is in the 1% boat. Time and again I have said that what is needed is a government sponsored X-Prize. So that everyone can access the technology and work as a group to perfect it. The stakes for the world are too high.

        • Ged

          Don’t give into melodrama.

          Majuro isn’t going anywhere anytime soon http://www.bom.gov.au/ntc/IDO70052/IDO70052SLD.shtml . The sea level hasn’t really risen for the Marshall Islands in the past 20 years, and there’s the raw data for you to look at.

          The stakes for the world aren’t high in the way, or for the reasons, you think. And there’s plenty of time to perfect the E-cat or something like it.

          As for that X-Prize idea, while it’s a great one, there are plans now out there for building your own LENR, so in a sense everyone can now access the technology and make their own improved versions.

          In short, things aren’t nearly as glum as your post makes them sound. Don’t worry, just keep working it all forward.

          • hempenearth

            The pdf plot of the data you posted does show a sea level rise.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          What Ponzi mistakes for rising sea-level is his own BS.

  • Roger Bird

    Large or small e-cats? I would prefer ANY e-cat that sold or was confirmed by 3rd party independent tests.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      I’m willing for Bruce Fast to do my test.

      • Roger Bird

        I am willing for you, Iggy, to do my testing.

    • daniel maris

      Yes, I am not really prepared to play this game until we get some more evidence that commercialised E cats actually exist.

      For instance, has Rossi explained what has happened to the first 1 MW unit he claimed to have sold and which was sitting in his Bologna facility a couple of months ago?

      • EduardoRG

        Yes he did, he said it was sold to the military and because they do not want their name to be known, he can not say which military bought the 1 MW unit. Now it is YOUR choice to believe him or not, as it is our choice to believe him or not. Whatever choice you or we make about it, should be taken with respect, whatever the choice is.

        • GreenWin

          According to rumor behind the news – they bought TWO 1MW units. Maybe they got a two screw boat to power.

        • daniel maris

          It was sold he said, but he then confirmed the unit had to be returned to, or was still on, his Bologna premises. He could tell us whether it has left his premises.

      • Roger Bird

        daniel maris, would you really accept any explanation that Rossi made? I tend to disbelieve people who lie. I gotta see units being bought or 3rd party confirmation.

        • Roger Bird

          I also tend to discount anyone who generates too much hot air, and I don’t mean hot air generated by an ecat but rather hot air generated by a pair of lungs.

  • Nicholas Payne

    Inefficient generation of electricity due to low temeperature steam is not a problem, since the inefficiency merely results in a heat byproduct which you want anyway.

  • Bill Colias

    I’d go with the industrial eCats first. The home ones will come later. With the industrial eCats, more people will benefit from them more quickly. This will certainly spur the development of the home versions. Eventually, the home eCats will take over with a distributive electric grid, but we aren’t there yet.

    The electric utility companies will see the benefits of eCat technology, and move quickly to adopt it. The big money will push for adoption. Like Rossi, I do not buy the grand conspiracy against cold fusion. Only scientists with big egos trying to protect their turf.

    • GreenWin

      Can you explain why 41 different international “science” journals rejected a paper written in part by Nobel laureate, Director General of CERN, and President of ENEA Italy’s Energy and Environment Agency Dr. Carlo Rubia?

      Why a French Cabinet Minister at CEA sent a team of scientists to Italy to “borrow” their research? Why they then set up their own cold fusion laboratory in at France’s EDF Research Centre Les Renardières near Paris??

      And why after a year of astonishing LENR revelations there is no free press coverage in this simulation?

      • Cold fusion is the third rail of scientific research as a result of group think. Their behavior is much like that of the Cardinals whom refused to look through Galileo’s telescope. Which one of that group would have dared to step forth and by doing so end his association with the institution he had made his life?

        Back in ’89 the Physical Review Letters opened their publication up to people of all stripes and allowed the publication of a great variety of designs and speculative “papers” about cold fusion. The result was a comic book, chock to the hilt with the greatest assemblage of dross that could ever have been. I wish I had a copy of it. You may be able to find a copy on the shelves of your nearest university. I suspect that they allowed the flood gates to open in that manner to “demonstrate” how unreasonable the average person is and how reasonable they are and how they should be the arbiters of the truth. Unfortunately they are willing to look at only a subset of the truth.

    • Tom

      Back then, they had time. NOW, time to buy up time is up. You cannot distract angry people with a sideshow. Back then they controlled the tide. Now it’s turning. Their survival depends on ‘go with the flow’ blend like a chameleon, surf the tide smoothly and then tray to get back in control. Alternative is permanent identification and transition from influence to oblivion. They suppressed when they could; they won’t when they cannot. So, it doesn’t mean there was no conspiracy to suppress… it simply means, suppression won’t help their survival anymore. (By ‘they’ I mean parasites.)

  • Ramp

    Large or small… Simple decision since neither exists: I’ll get myself an electric kettle for 50 bucks, which is as good at converting electricity to steam as Rossi’s demo ‘catalyzer”. If I go fancy I’ll attach it to a controller unit with big numeric displays.

  • Jerry

    great reading here what will LENR do for the planet.

    http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcomparison.pdf

  • daniel maris

    I thought it worth putting this up

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-17989553

    It’s about driverless cars being given licences in Nevada and California. I think it’s a useful reminder about how quickly things can change. A few years ago this technology seemed at the outer reaches but now it seems to be accepted as part of our normal lives and we might get used to seeing more and more of these vehicles over the next 10 years. And then maybe in 30 years everyone will be using them.

    • GreenWin

      So… I can let the chauffeur go?

      • Don’t be too hasty. You’ll still need someone to open and close the doors for you.

      • You will still need someone to prise the flints from betwixt the treads of you tyres.

  • Cliff Bradley

    I think that the large e-cats will be the first game changers. Probably the Electrical Companies will retrofit existing power plants first. Then they will take advantage of the lack of infrastructure needed to run smaller plants. They don’t need huge supplies of coal or oil, etc. so you don’t need to put them by rail roads and pipelines. So, they will probably start dropping them into places that have long spans of high tension lines, like mountain towns first. Eventually, I expect that they will retrofit all their substations where they take the power from the high tension lines and convert it down to E-Cats and just get rid of the high tension lines and all the expense of maintaining them. Also, hospitals, airports, big hotels, etc. will want E-Cats to provide uninterruptable power. Submarines will all be able to use the larger E-Cats. Large ships, like container ships or cruise liners will be able to be powered by E-Cats.

    Home heating units will be useful, but they won’t be game changers until they can run self sustained.

    The game changing aspect of the E-Cat is not how cheap running it will be. The game changer is the elimination of infrastructure to feed the beast. Imagine no power lines or natural gas lines going to homes. Imagine being able to build a building anywhere you want and not worry about getting energy to it. That’s the game changer aspect of the E-Cat.

    • Guru

      Dear Cliff, large “electrical compamies” will ALL be bankrupt within 4 to 8 years timeframe, EVEN is they buy these E-Cats and Hyperions. Their CFO and CTO will capable doing same calculattions as me.

      • That would be true if (a) a home LENR generator system becomes available and (b) it is not either taxed mightily to level the playing field, or banned on ‘safety’ grounds. I think that at best (a) is some way down the road, and even when available, (b) will probably immediately apply.

        I think Cliff’s scenario is the most likely. I would see skid-mounted packaged multi-MW LENR boilers coming first, to retrofit mainly gas and coal fired power stations, then later (as these time-expire) more localised plant feeding urban centres, with a stripped-down grid acting to match supply and demand by operating switchboards and providing hydro-storage systems or their higher technology descendents.

        State enforced taxation of home power units would ensure that they never become a viable alternative except where there is no grid supply, even if they are not banned outright. Home heaters will almost certainly be subject to the same tax regime in order to eliminate potential competition with gas.

        • Robert Mockan

          You said: “..state enforced taxation of home power units would ensure that they never become a viable alternative..”.

          You forget however that “..citizen enforced nullification of state enforced taxation..” brings down governments.

          Politicians tend to ignore this. Until, of course, they begin to be afraid.

          I doubt there will be any taxation or banning in the long term.

          • JimR

            It’s way past time to dissolve the federal government and any state government that supports it. These parasites are a major drag on all humanity.

        • GreenWin

          And as Stanford population kook, and author of the badly flawed “Population Bomb” has said:

          “Everyone is scared sh**less, but they don’t know what to do.”

          Get a job Paul.

      • Cliff Bradley

        Dear Guru,
        You say that large “electrical compamies” will ALL be bankrupt within 4 to 8 years timeframe, but you never say why. Are you psychic? Why would they be bankrupt? Who’s going to provide electricity to the masses?

        What calculations are you talking about? Are you talking about the economic collapse that is about to happen? Ok, let’s say the economy does collapse, does that mean that nobody will need electricity anymore.

        I really find it tedious when people make pronouncements without any kind of explanation. I’d like to know what the heck you’re talking about, that is if YOU even know.

    • Mark

      I think doing an environmental impact statement for LENR processes will nearly impossible at first. How can you say anything but; “We think we know how this works and we think that it is safe”. “Everyone who has ever used this process has shown that it is safe”. “We know from our experience it safe.” I don’t think you can use language like this in a EI report. So without an enviromental impact report, licencing these processes for a large public utility is going to be impossible.

      This is why I think this can only be sold to
      people who understand what is going on. There
      is risk, and they are taking that risk for its commensurate financial reward just like most everything else they do in their lives.

      Or else it can sold to the military who can cover up almost any untoward outcome – all while keeping the experience information derived completely confidential.

      So, I think LENR *must* be sold to indiviuals and
      those that say otherwise are fakers. Large
      corporations *need* to risk adverse to a tee, even when this does mean their ultimate demise.

      :S:MarkSCoffman

  • GreenWin

    The History of MIT’s Blatant Suppression of Cold Fusion

    Corrupt scientists at MIT draw anger from US Military Veterans.

    American “scientists” are in SERIOUS trouble when they start pissing off the rank and file military.

    http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/12/30/the-history-of-mits-blatant-suppression-of-cold-fusion/

    What ethical scientist wants to be affiliated with the PFSC (hot fusion lab) at MIT after this ignominious scandal??

  • georgehants

    Worth repeating the report on this website from last week and ask where is science, what are they doing, who is keeping this report out of the media.
    Anybody who deny’s a conspiracy against Cold Fusion is mistaken.

    Hagelstein: Public Invited to See Continuing Cold Fusion Demonstration at MIT
    May 5, 2012
    At the recent “Atom Unexplored” conference in Torino Italy, Dr. Peter Hagelstein of MIT gave a presentation about some of his work in the field of low energy nuclear reaction research, concentrating on the work of his colleague Dr. Mitchell Swartz. Swartz has invented a palladium-based device he names a NANOR. When an electric current is passed through the palladium, excess energy in the form of heat is produced which, according to Hagelstein, is over 14 times the input energy.
    In this talk, Hagelstein says that this NANOR has been running at MIT since January, and it has continued to produce excess heat far beyond anything that could be accounted for by a chemical reaction. Hagelstein says that the public is invited to take a look at the device in action.
    As we have come to expect these days, there has been very little reporting of this development outside a few blogs on the Internet. It would be interesting if some of Hagelstein’s peers at MIT would take a look at the NANOR and make some comments — or even if some outside experts could pay a visit.

    • Barry

      I’m on my way to MIT this morning. Peter Hagelstein has been gracious enough to grant me a thirty minute interview. I’m hoping to video the CF device and ask a lot of questions, but I am by no means an expert interviewer or physicist. I’ll let you all know how I made out tonight.

      • admin

        Great to hear, Barry! Look forward to your report.

      • Yes indeed. Its good to know that not all of us are just armchair pundits! I also look forward to hearing from you later on.

      • zero

        Dang you beat me to it. I couldn’t get time off until next week.

      • Wish I live close enough to do the same. Good on you.

      • dragon

        For some of us that are not in US or close to MIT it is a real pleasure to hear this news from you Barry. Get some great questions ready and GOOD LUCK.
        How do you plan to release this interview and Video? Please keep us updated on … well, on everything.

      • Tom

        … you are better than ALL the journalists put together.

  • timycelyn

    Defkalion. Guys, they seem to have posted a new 35 slide presentation giving a few tantalizing glimpses of what has and is going on there. As ever, frustrating, inconclusive,…but…..

    http://www.defkalion-energy.com/news

    Its the top item on the list, which is pretty new….

    Frank – maybe a new thread for this?? Whilst some of the pictures tell you nothing (picture of a field!) others do have some interesting graphs – maybe someone can build on what is disclosed here….

  • JC

    This is OT, but it seems Defkalion has released some photos.

    http://lenr-coldfusion.com/2012/05/10/pictures-of-defkalion-progress/

    • timycelyn

      Guess we were both on the site at the same time!

      cheers

      Tim

  • bob reidel

    i believe that a combination of both would be the most beneficial. that would give the maximum amount of flexibility of choice. this set of circumstances would enable each individual to deal with this technology accordingly to his ability & finances. perhaps allowing individuals to become licensed would allow qualified people to install electrical generation in their homes or communities.

  • Tim

    What is the magic ingredient?

    Apparently Rossi’s device is a rod of granulated nickel surrounded by heated hydrogen gas.

    Rossi’s claim is that above a comparatively low temperature, the heat produced exceeds the heat used to generate it. But not all granular nickel works. The granular nickel requires a catalyst of certain elements.

    What elements? Oh, that is a secret! Only he knows. Without those catalysts the device does not work!

    Aside from the utter frustration of this claim, it reminds me of those claims by Alchemists of old, from the same country, Italy, who befuddled kings, and who claimed that this pinch of special powder, when added to molten lead, turned it to gold!

    Oh, come on! This whole thing is a con job! Secret wires or something. All Rossi has to do, for say $20 million placed in escrow, and a promise of a Nobel Prize, is release details of this “secret ingredient”.

    This whole thing is an utter farce. If it worked he would have released the secret ingredient ages ago (for a price). Why, Barack Obama could secure his election overnight by getting the Navy to build one of these devices, having it demonstrated before him that it works, and releasing the details.

    These Italian Professors get loopy in their old age. It goes with the country. Don’t get carried away with this nonsense. It is like the story of the student says to an economics professor “Look there is a $50 dollar note on the ground”. “No it is not” replies the professor, “otherwise somebody will have picked it up.”

    • P. Bates

      Tim on May 13, 2012 at 5:14 am: At least Rossi et. al. have greater evidence of proof of concept than you nay-sayers (shills?)have. “Oh, come on! This whole thing is a con job! Secret wires or something.” Indeed! And that’s your proof?
      What an outstanding mind you have, not.

  • Thomas Guertler

    I would like to answer the question that was asked, because it is a valid one with broad ranging implications. Do we want a centralized power source or a distributed one?

    The answer to this lies in understanding the power usage that most homes use and why distributed generation is best in the long run.

    Most homes use the majority of their power for two things: HVAC and hot water. Both of these processes can be easily converted over with low temperature heat. The rest of the energy is generally for lighting and appliance usage.

    How would LENR meet the needs of most homes? First hot water is a no brainer, so is heat. Cooling and dehumidification are really also easy with low temperature heat. Using either absorption or adsorption chillers, cold water can easily be produced. Lastly how would the other electric be produced? Using low temperature heat, an organic rankin cycle generator can produce power at about 50% efficiency. So, in a home there would be no need for the grid.

    All of these technologies already exist, they only need a heat source to make them widely used and produced. They are already used in places where low grade process heat is available.

    But, these solutions require an investment of capital by each person.

    So, what we will most likely see is a rollout of the technologies at an expensive price point to the early adopters, with lower long run costs and adoptions by the masses to follow.

    If history is any guide, the early adopters technology is distributed out to even the poor about 10-15 years out.