The Motivating Power of Hope for LENR

Hope is a powerful force in many peoples’ lives. I talk regularly with people who, like me, are not content to accept that the status quo is the way things have to be. Hope is a power that drives people to conceive and build many of the innovations and improvements that we have seen over the centuries. It is hope and faith that something better is possible that drives the inventor, the discoverer, the pioneer to do things that have never been done before.

We live in a world where a feeling of depression and despondency is pervasive. Fears of scarcity, of debt, of economic and mental depression, of environmental catastrophe seem to dominate headlines, debates and discussions in public and private arenas. There is a sense that the current ‘system’ is broken, and try as we might, we don’t seem have the ability to pull ourselves out of the many problems that grip our world.

How does LENR affect this situation? To many who acquaint themselves with the facts surrounding LENR, there is a realization that we may not have to be stuck with the way the world currently works — an economic system based largely on the burning of fossil fuels, something which brings with it a host of problems on local and international levels. It may be that in the emerging LENR movement there could be a seed of real change that can affect the world for the better in revolutionary ways. If LENR technology can be developed to provide clean, abundant energy at very low cost, all kinds of problems fall by the wayside, and many opportunities for progress and prosperity spring up.

I think that those who have done pioneering research and development work in this field, and who have found that there is potential to find energy in a radically new way on an atomic scale deserve the thanks of all of us. Taking the first steps on a path that goes against prevailing wisdom can be very difficult, and can cost a lot in terms of money and professional reputations. Many of the great scientific names in history had to work in difficult circumstances against significant opposition. Most of us who are following LENR developments are not scientists or inventors — but I think there are ways to for most of us to do something to help bring about positive change. What that is can vary from person to person, but just being aware of what is going on, and sharing information with others can go a long way to help bring attention of this phenomenon to a larger audience.

I have no illusions about the difficulties and obstacles that need to be dealt with to bring a new technology into the mainstream of society. All kinds of problems — technical, financial, political, legal, etc. — will need to be dealt with, which may take a lot of time, money, and persuasive power. But it seems that already the LENR genie is out of the bottle, and with so many people around the world now having knowledge of validity of this technology, it is going to be very difficult put it back and pretend it never existed.

The hope for a better world through LENR technology can be a real motivating factor now for many people to get involved in its growth and development. I see this already happening, and it makes me glad to be alive in this exciting time.

Frank Acland

  • Kim

    Very well put Frank, thanks for your spirit,hope, and
    hard work.

    I think in the final analyzes it is up to each one
    to spread the news far and wide.

    It will only become a reality when a certain social
    critical mass is reached.

    Like a psychic blueprint of something that is slowly
    being constructed in our society’s brain.

    Very Good

  • Luca Salvarani

    Dear Frank

    Our current problems have very little to do with energy. Of course e-cat can be an extraordinary step ahead but just consider this case: more than half of fossil fuels price consists of taxes (at least here in Italy) so if e-cat will replace fossil fuels the government will lose a lot of cash flows so it will charge enormous taxes on e-cat or other things that people could buy with energy saving money…. The problem is the governement and the value destruction that it generates, non energy…! Without government current energy price would be far lower (50%) even without e-cat…. but millions of people want to live and spend a lot without work, or without producing anything valuable (the bulk, nearly 90% of public employees), so who work hard and produce is forced to pay for them and has much less money for himself! this is the real cause of this disaster, not energy price!!! I fully realize the ecceptional benefits of e-cat, expecially in the long term, but the government will stop them or keep them for itself (better say: those million people who want to spend without work… expecially so called damned public “employees”) so the life quality for average people don’t improve so much, or as many readers here do hope.
    Even right now there are many many other technologies that could significantly improve our life quality, but the government stop them and ordinary people with poor economic-financial background don’t realize this. Frr example e-learning: it could mean not only high quality low cost education from your home and a great freedom and flexibility in delivery the service, but also billions $ of tax reductions (due to massive teachers lay-offs). So you coulg get a far better service and more money in the wallet to spend for average people! but this can’t happen because a lot of useless worker (public teachers) will hopefully lose their wage and many of them can’t find another work due to lack of useful education or technical skills; or could find another work but working a lot more and getting less so what all other people normally do, but they consider their immoral arcaic privileges ase normal and we must pay for them. The real question is: many productive people is forced to maintain a lot of useless and unproductive ones so they will nevel ever have more money to improve their lives and the number of the productive ones is decreasing (less votes) and the opposite for the unproductive ones (more votes) so things will worsen. To complete this point I have to say that governmant retains/delays this technologies on the behalf of other private companies… (Read “Against the intellectual property” written by my professor Michele Boldrin that explains very well the enormous economic losses due to patent systems) so public employees are the main and most compelling problem but they’re not the only one.
    This couldn’t ever happen in a free market economy but the government disguise the market at the extent that even many productive people (ones that lose with this system) don’t realize this mechanism and support this downward spiral of economic destruction….. The e-cat can do nothing to solve this, only information or immigration in free and business friendly countries can help! Here in Europe, and expecially in Italy or Greece or Spain.. very few people understand this very simple point, but what shocks me is that even in the US people don’t wake up as recent poll suggest. Dear American frinds wake up please, I’m only speking in your behalf.
    Sorry for my imperfect english.

    • I think that what we all feel hope for is a world without monetary influence at all, and the idea is that the e-cat could provide us with means of ridding ourselves of the grid (electricity, heating, but also food growing and everything which as of now requires us to continue working); once this concepts spreads, even members of government would not feel the need to work – i.e. tax people – as they themselves would just quit their jobs and live happily at home, just like us.

      But we will face resistance, no doubt about it. I think, though, if this technology works, it cannot be too long until governments will start falling…

      • Luca Salvarani

        To Havenheed

        Good point!
        1) I think that emerging robotics and ICT technologies will turn a lot of jobs obsolete so the basic products and services could be produced/delivered by a very small workforce. The e-cat could be a very tough catalyzer, as I have already pointed out: how many people work in the energy industry? Maybe in the order of millions in the US alone, because you should consider the very all energy-related jobs looking at the greater possible picture. For example with fossil fuel decline a lot of other industries will inevitably decline too: software, hardware, machineries, mining, energy-related financial and legal services that are job-intensive…. The only possibile solutions is getting things and services cheaper! And when I say cheaper I mean at least 75% cheaper… Many things and services could be provided at those prices just now… the only reason why it doesn’t happen is lack of competition: for example if you must pay your own education you probably choose e-learning instead of traditional education… but you are obliged to finance public education so there’s no real competition and a real market thanks to the government.
        2) Your call for no monetary influence is controversial! I think that there always will be scarse things and services and commerce so money is necessary to do all theese exchanges in a cheap and effective way… the real point should be: What kind of money? This is the real point! I support gold standard at all, the central bank closures, and the death of traditional bank shifting to a market-based system where not only large companies but also individuals search fund on market and this will be possibile thanks to technology progress.. By the way here in Italy the market doesn’t really exist at all: even large corporations use bank funds…. the opposite of the US that, like always, leads the way!

    • jacob

      thanks luca,for that view ,which is true reality,I think a Global Economic collapse,which is not far off, I predict , will devastate peoples lives ,specially in the cities,retirement savings will be gone ,money will have no value,oil flow stops,because no payments can be made,farmers can’t grow crops with out fuel,no food in the stores ,which will usher in a time of prosperity ,no body will have to pay the banks,because there is no money,the Banksters and big Oil will all fold and go out of business,the Governments will be broke,and don’t have to make payments on their previous high debt, while millions will have little food to eat and will still arise from the devastation and rebuilt this world to a better place to live,and free energy technology can emerge and thrive along with LENR powered every thing .

  • Dr. Mike

    Many thanks to you for keeping those of us that are interested in LENR updated on its progress on a daily basis. I’m sure that more people will become interested in LENR as better scientific data becomes available on the operation of these devices, and as a theory of operation is demonstrated with controlled experimentation. Most scientists as myself would like to see more data from from LENR devices published in the leading scientific journals, but what we all should realize is that we are very lucky to be able to see the data that has been released thusfar. Andrea Rossi and other scientists working on LENR devices have the right to keep all information secret until they are fully protected with patents and have sufficient understanding of mechanisms of the energy production to obtain those patents.

    We all anxiously await just a little more data from Rossi’s 600C device.

    Dr. Mike

  • andreiko

    Er zijn verschillende vormen van hoop ,voor LENR zijn er veel mensen die hopen dat het geintegreerd zal worden in de maatschappij(en dat zal het ook)maar er zullen veel mensen een andere baan moeten zoeken, hun geld verliezen,ect….de hoop van deze laatste groep is anders.

    Er is niemand die alle gevolgen van LENR techniek kan inschatten ,in deze zijn wij de meterioloog zonder instrumenten, maar zoals het weer zal de LENR zich manifesteren.

  • Blanco69

    Keep up the good work Frank. Sadly, the flame of hope needs to be actively protected and nurtured while the key protagonists strive to deliver the prize to humanity. As we’ve seen over at ecat news, the absence of a guiding hand attracts those lost souls who console themselves by agreeing on negativity with each other. That kind of stuff is infectious and can lead to misplaced despair. For the rest of us, remember that the night is darkest just before dawn.

  • georgehants

    When the World matures to realise that only production is of any importance and money and finance are abandoned, then some of the millions of people that will happily be put out of work to enjoy their lives, or to help others, will be all personnel engaged in anything to do with patents.
    Without money every advance would be a gift to the World and utilised with no arguments or complications, just the fewest number of people working to exploit the benefits as necessary.
    Half the population is working in finance related employment that is totally pointless except to maintain the rich and powerful in their positions that would not exist if people are only judged and rewarded by their contributions to society.

  • Karl

    A great thank to you Frank for keeping this site focused on fair discussions and the promotion of information to help CF/LENR to evolve. It is extremely important to my mind to have sites such as yours for the many of us that are seeking to avoid disinformation and to nail down real and discuss real discoveries to progress further in this field.
    Energy could be almost totally equal to all the work needed to be done to create and evolve and ease living standards, build- and maintain infrastructure grow food etc. The rapid economic growths during the last 100 years rely on the availability of cheap energy. No wonder therefore why human being seems to risk everything to maintain a steady stream cheap energy regardless the risk environment, wars etc.
    No wonder why we who have got the privilege to be informed about a solution like the CF/LENR that most likely will solve our entire energy situation will head for the truth. It is of important to promote and fairly judge these new energy solutions regardless the roadblocks that may occur. I don’t see any reason for any force or government, especially the fairly elected ones, to postpone or stop the evolvement of this energy solutions regardless obvious short term turbulent economic situation that surely must evolve to the better for the mankind over a transition period.
    The science community and patent organizations are to be blamed that is not openly review CF/LENR results. If anomalies from current quantum theories are detected, a sound and realistic approach would be to go to the bottom with further research to hammer out the truth. Instead of putting the head in the sand the above organizations that are paid to offer service from taxes should their job properly. No wonder Rossi et al concluded to go their own way and release products. As is seems more and more likely that the CF/LENR is for real. One alternative could be that the current social organizations took this evolvement seriously and start to organize for its implementation. Perhaps it is best for CF/LENR to evolve in the grass root perspective without too much influence from manipulating corrupt bureaucrats?

  • John

    The most important commodity is not oil (or coffee), but labour. I only work two days a week. Sure, I don’t earn as much and I rely on my inheritance from my parents, but people work too much. They spend too much, and have children which are a financial drain. If you want children, sure have them, but if you’re on the fence about having children don’t have them. I know that this post is 99% off topic, but 1/3 of my income is spent on housing, the rest on food and materials. Only about 15% of my income is spent on energy.

    Work less, get paid less, and have a higher quality of living. If you’re in the mood get fixed and be happily childfree like me.

    • Gisli

      Energy is a form of labor. You only spend 15% of your income directly into energy but how much do you spend on it indirectly. It takes energy to produce and mantain houses.

      • daniel maris

        Labour is the only real source of cost. Try this thought experiment:

        Imagine an eccentric scientist designs a clever robot and sends it off into space in its own rocket (and then promptly dies before he has any chance to patent anything). The robot lands on Planet X – not owned by any earthling- and carries out its programmed activities …there the robot manufactures other robots from the Planet’s resources and those robots start making things like photovoltaic panels for energy, and then finished products such as fridges and cars…

        Eventually the robot civilisation builds cargo spacecraft to return to Earth and starts dropping/parachuting cars, fridges and all manner of objects from orbit to the ground.

        On landing what is the price of these objects.

        I say the price is zero and the reason it is zero is because there was no human labour involved in its production, not because there was no energy in its production.

        Of course you can argue that land is a real price factor as well as labour. But that is really I think a reflection of who controls what resources. Land is no different from coal, water or fish or air. It is just we are used to someone controlling land, and hence being able to charge for it, but not used to people controlling air supply. With water we are used to some controls usually. With fish it depends if the fish are inside or outside territorial waters.

        • Luca Salvarani

          To Daniel

          Your example is totally misleading! We don’t operate on an alien planet! We operate on our planet so there are a lot of costs to consider, first of all commodities, taxations, fees ecc… Even if energy would be free and a robot could produce and deliver any things… that robot must use commodities and they aren’t for free! That robot must be produced and it costs something, that robot works in a factory that has a cost too (rent or building)…

    • Luca Salvarani

      To John

      I’m sorry for your current situation, I hope things getting better for you. Nevertheless I strongly disagree with you: the most important commodity is by far technology! Labour is absolutely, and increasingly, less and less important… expecially because robotics/automation and other emerging technologies are turning a lot of jobs obsolete so you could produce/provide the most common things and services with very few workers. In another comment I’ve written about e-cat impact on job market, now think about the automated vehicles that are emerging right now (Google in parcicular). Once perfected this technology could be quickly applied in a lot of situations not only car or truck, or bus but also in the industrial automation displacing thousands of workers… And this could take only few years… not to speak about the adoption of mature ICT technologies… for example I can testify that here in Italy adopting them you could provide the same or even better services (in quality and quantity terms) with at least 60-70% less public employees….. This trend once affected agriculture, now is hitting industry but is also beginning to hit a sectour once favoured by it such as service jobs! So what matter is technology: what enable us to produce more, better and cheaper with a ridicoulus small quantity of job… Anyway sorry for my imperfect English.

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  • georgehants

    From nickelpower sorry if already been shown.
    Finally news from the MIT experiments.
    And yes, I think I beat Frank Acland of to a news story — that’s a first!
    I have attached 3 videos of Dr. Peter Hagelstein discussing the MIT work. The sound quality is very poor. Dr. Hagelstein talks right over my head most of the time. But he clearly validates the MIT reports. He clearly declares that MIT has been demonstrating an ongoing reaction for months. He clearly declares that the process is not of chemical origin.
    Even better (or worse), in video 3 he accuses a colleague of sabotaging research investment. Physicists, of course, are purely driven by rational analysis, not pocketbook reasoning, right?

    • Filip

      Aren’t these the old Torino videos?
      Barry visited MIT afterwards and reported his visit and video on e-catworld. Or am I wrong?

      • Barry

        Yeah, Frank did an article on these over a month ago. These are from the Atom Unexplored that ended on May 4th.

  • georgehants

    From Nanoparticles Synthesis and Applications
    Free Energy Power Plant Using Quantum Water Vortex
    25 kW generator of electric energy consumes 4 kW to keep it running. The association is offered (under beta contrast terms) a 1 MW spiral complement would operate a really tiny volume of appetite (3 HP DC motor) to float 10000 gallons of H2O (weighing around 80000 pounds), branch it in a spiral during 90 RPM (plus) similar to a mini hurricane, which is afterwards harnessed for energy output, branch a hustler during 600 RPM. A tiny volume of stream provides “a certain assign to a moleculars formulating a spiral of super liquid which levitates with vibratory harmonic frequencies. The frictionless mass is able of generating huge inertia…” The association says it can be deployed subterraneous or up to altitudes as tall as 10000 feet. Nanoparticles have been combined to a H2O causing it to turn a superfluid, so which it does not solidify until about reduction seventeen to twenty degrees Celsius. See story during This video was posted here with accede from a company.

    • Sorry George – that’s got to be just about the worst piece of pseudoscientific BS I’ve seen for some time. It make ‘Chan’s’ CF ‘replications’ look like solid science.

      • georgehants

        Hi Peter, Ha, I could not say anything about it, I just put them up for everybody.

        • I know that George – thanks for all the ‘brain food’!

    • jacob

      been done before by Viktor Schauberger and it one the same page as Dr.Evert

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Instead of Adam Smith’s “invisible hand of the market”, all we’re getting is the invisible finger.

    • georgehants

      Alan, I regularly put a question on the Adam Smith website, asking anybody to give the number of people who would be left working in the maintain the present level of production and services if every form of money and finance where abandoned.
      Other than the usual “it cannot be done” fraternity I have never received an answer.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Thanks George, I’ll have to check out that website.

      • Luca Salvarani

        Dear Georgehants

        If there’s any form of money and finance, how can people exchange things and services? Money and finance are necessary! But they can operate in various form indeed I don’t support the current one but saying that they aren’t necessary is pure illusion.

        • georgehants

          Luca, thank you.
          My friends and I have spent many enjoyable hours discussing many of the problems associated with a finance free World.
          Finding the solutions to objections becomes great fun, as it is a subject that once one gets over the usual Dogma that it cannot be done, the wonderful advantages and benefits become obvious.
          It is a subject, unlike science, where in the early stages opinions are welcome and very important.
          One must first rid one-self of the imbedded ideas that you are putting.
          Anybody can quickly see with an open-mind, that all objections can quickly be overcome and the people working in money and finance put out of work to share the necessary labour and for all to enjoy life.
          It is a wide subject but after thinking positively of possible solutions to your points, please by all means ask me a specific question and I will try to answer you or anybody.

          • Barry

            George, as someone who is terrible with finances, it’s good to know some people are thinking of new paradigms to replace worn out economic forms. I don’t think the US will become communistic, just ideas of healthcare get people up in arms crying socialism. Maybe I’m being idealistic, but I hope for the next system to be based on, not communism but community. With the internet as a force of communication people with common values who are capable (and I don’t mean physically or financially) of forming a larger community, even if they live away from each other… well anyway, we’re limited only by our imagination, maybe we should tackle this free energy thing first,

            Good article Frank, I have to admit I don’t have total faith in Cold Fusion, but I do have hope. Without hope we fall into despair.

        • Robert Mockan

          Depends on what you like to do. If I have a laboratory to work in with equipment and materials, and as long as I do not have to waste my time at menial jobs to cover the “cost of living”, I would be content. Society is set up so people have to have money to live. Set it up so money is not needed to live comfortably, and I would have no need for money.

        • Robert Mockan

          Face it. Until something better comes along (the universal robot?) slaves get things done. Call it what you will, but we live in a slave world, and no amount of lipstick on that pig is going to change it.

          • georgehants

            Robert on this page, many take pride in not being led by the nose by “opinion experts”, only those unwilling or unable to think will except the status quo.
            Your unhelpful quote of communism below is reminiscent of all the Cold Fusion Trolls.
            One does not follow, one thinks for one’s self.
            We are the one’s to make “something better come along” or who are you waiting for, to do it for us.

          • Barry

            Maybe robotics are liberating us from a slavery based economy.

            ps Robert, how is the ATHANOR part two coming along?

          • Robert Mockan

            > georgehants

            I envision an existence where the social group is tribal, and that may even mean just one individual, but with a common world view one learns from birth, with enough power (the ability to project force) to successfully defend their way of life against all usurpers, internal or external. Such an existence would require universal machine robots to make all desired goods, to insure no need for slavery. Without machines, people who HAVE to spend their invaluable irreplaceable life time in toil to provide their “cost of living”, are SLAVES, weather they object or not, or realize or not.
            Freedom, real freedom, is the freedom to choose, with choices other than just not “working”, and dying without a place to live, or sustenance, because one has no “money”, to afford the “cost of living”. That is no choice, but a system to insure slavery.
            Ideologies lead to slavery if imposed upon ANY PERSON, without offering any choice other than what I just described. Communism is just another. Perhaps with universal robots something could be done with that ideology, but otherwise not.
            The only freedom preserving ideology is anarchism. But the anarchist without the ability to project force if need be, even if that means needing to have sufficient power to destroy worlds, to deter any attack, is not safe from usurpers. Ever. The existence I envision will not happen anytime soon, and requires a low density population that need not interact if they so choose. And it requires an abundance of resources such that there is not need for conflict to obtain them. The answer to that should be obvious.

            Who do I wait for? Enough people who understand the insane oligarchs who presently rule this world have their own agenda that is antithetical to any future of freedom for slaves.

            With understanding comes decisions. And one of the first decisions needs to be…DESTROY THE INSANE OLIGARCHS!

            But just because you can explain people are slaves, does not mean they will understand. And just because they understand, does not mean they will choose to WANT to be free.

            I agree with you completely
            we are the one’s to make something better come along.

            What are people waiting for?

            I have no idea! I have not had a clue what people are waiting for, from as early an age as I was able to think for myself. Try living in a world like that.

          • Robert Mockan

            > Barry

            My funds are depleted. I will have to take a break for however long it takes me to obtain more “money”. I’m sorry, because I’m not the one who will suffer. But I have no choice.

        • jacob

          Luca,let’s look at it objectively,say we have a global economic collapse that brings us back ‘as history has taught’ back to food stamps the world over,there is no money at that point,and the government will give you food stamps and the government could provide ,cell phones,cable ,fuel ,free medicare and all services you could ever want,under the condition you provide your labour of 20 hours a week ,to make all these services possible and free for every body,a preferably monarchy would make sure ethical and moral guidelines are followed,schooling be via computer and extensive citizen training be done to teach us responseability and instill in us a pride of self and world,where every one can live in abundance and every one prospers,and everyone wishes each other well. These are things already accomplished in other worlds.

          We are next!!

          • Robert Mockan

            Uh… wasn’t that called… communism?

          • jacob

            We are next to advance socially as a global family where freedom of rights are honored and respected as it is every body’s birth right to
            live a life free of tyranny or control ,where we would lose our freedom of choice,as written in the US. Constitution.

            that would not be communism.

    • Jim

      Suppression of LENER started more than 20 years ago when MIT hot fusion physicists et al refused to acknowledge the time restrictions of hydrogen loading. The verifications were set up to fail because of the threat to the research dollars funneled in hot fusion.
      As the new field of LENR theory matures, we will see quantum leaps in control and stability.
      The spread of information via the internet is now too wide for the multinationals and classical physicists to put the genie back in the bottle. The research has been slowed down by legalities in the US which will only exacerbate the brain and money drain to other countries. Yes the multinationals will continue to make their billions off the oil based economy but as is evident throughout our economy, oil at over $100/barrel is the tipping point to alternative energy. As LENR technology is perfected and begins to spread throughout the rest of the world the effectiveness of the US and multinationals’ suppression will certainly lose effectiveness. Hopefully they will have amassed enough barrels of cash to quietly retreat and let economies throughout the world flourish in a new age of understanding and success that doesn’t automatically deposit 10% of every transaction in their pockets.
      LENR will proliferate. I fear the manipulations that will make it expensive to the mass market as no matter how benign the intent of the creators, greed is innate in the merchants who will ultimately be responsible for its distribution.

  • jacob

    Thanks Frank ,hope is a motivating force,along with love and caring for our whole earth family,inspires us to want to make a difference ,to improve the quality of life of all our people,to built labor saving technology with the intent so people can work less and have more leasure time with friends and family,to relief their financial burden and stress and worry.

    Unfortunately ,in this broken system it will be hard to integrate LENR or any other of many free energy systems ,because it creates tax revenue losses to already financially over burdened governments,that can’t absorb and more losses of income.

    A broken system will eventually fail, and we are going to face an economic world wide collapse which with much devastation could bring on the full integration of LENR

    • Filip

      Gouvernments can raise taxes on LENR too, why not.
      They raise taxes on everything that’s lose and tightened, so why not on an Ecat.
      Paying taxes is for the benefit of everyone, roads, health insurance, etc. It’s not always to fill pockets, I admit the system is not perfect, but in Europe we have great health insurance, anyone here can confirm that.
      In the US they would accuse you from socialism, they don’t no the difference between socialism and a social system which protects the weak and the poor.
      BTW you choose your presidents, the US supose to be a democracy so why complaning. It’s your own choise.

      • Luca Salvarani

        Dear Filip

        1) I don’t know where are you from…surely not from Italy or southern Europe. I’m from Italy and more precisely from Lombardia which is the more affluent region of my country. In my region, and some nearby ones also, for example, health works pretty good but in the rest of Italy if you need public health services you must wait MONTHS, even for most dangerous diseases so you are obliged to pay a private one…. In sum you pay the efficient private and the inefficient public… so why paying twice if you can pay the efficient private alone? This health system don’t help poors as you think, quite the opposite. Maybe in your country public health works better but our standards are in the Europe average…
        2) Your comment works in theory alone! In the reality even here, in the most affluent, productive and efficient region of Italy you pay a lot of taxes and get very poor services. This taxation forces businesses to close or to way overseas to survive…. it’s not a matter of greed but a matter of survive. Doing a business here is really impossible for example legal trials last at least some years… Burocracy is everywhere and it’s impossible to do even the most simple thing… This system worked bad untill 15 yearsa ago creating a record high debt and recurrent devaluations that destroyed people’s savings… so this system doesn’t work at all, intrinsically! Even some welfare countries such as Germany and Sweden or the eastenr-europe had this foolish system but they deeply reformed it and now they get the benefits… In those states the poor can help themselves because the free market and light efficient state creates the opportunities…. here in Italy with traditional heawy state and welfare (ponzi) state only the rich and the well connected entrepenueurs are getting reacher at the expense of the 99% of the people! Your system doesn’t help poor, it’s exactly the opposite!
        3) Of course governments can charge e-cat too but it’s not only a question of taxes… The extent and implication of this technology is by far larger. For example in my country the most important corporations are energy-related: Eni, Enel, Snam Rete Gas,Terna, A2A……. E-cat introduction would mean the default ot this companies: the states would lose billions of their share value! Italian banks would lose billions of their bonds value and would need public refinancing… Tens (o rhundreds) of thousands people would lose their job so the welfare burden would be unsustainable (It’s alrealy unsastainable, and from many years)…. This is only a partial effect of the e-cat wave.. I hope that this simple real example show you as the current defaulting system can’t survive the process of creative destruction triggered by e-cat. Sorry again for my imperfect english.

        • Shane D.


          Very good post! I’m surprised to see there are still some Europeans brave enough to state the obvious. Your words bring to mind a Margaret Thatcher saying:

          “Socialism is great until you run out of other peoples money”.

          Sadly, even here in the once great United States of America, we are now just learning that lesson, although we haven’t run out of others money yet… but we are working on that!

          I also agree with you that governments will quickly adjust to the LENR threat by finding a way to tax it also.

          • Luca Salvarani

            To ShaneD

            I can assure you that here in Italy (but also in Europe, not to mention France..) very very few people actually realize this concepts and will ever realize them…. trust me! My only fear is that the US become like us… it would be really horrible! It’s not a coincidence that Andrea Rossi works mainly in the US… here in Italy it would be impossible.

          • Filip

            I SAID gouvernments can tax the Ecat.

            I also said the US don’t know the difference between socialism and a social community to protect the weak.

            Sometimes people have to take responsability too, not only the gouvernments.

            It’s not me who said that the Greeks have to learn to pay taxes, it’s someone much smarter than me.(maybe it’s a bad habit in southern Europe).

            Poverty in the Western world is unacceptable, but how do we deal with it?

            Not everyone is as smart as you to take care of themselfs, many people need help.
            Are we willing to help them?

            It’s our obligation, as humans, to help.

            There are a lot of vulonteers(thousands) in my country, helping the needing.

            I that communism?

            We don’t live in a perfect world but we need realistic solutions and mostly solidarity.
            Also the US is a great country for hard working, smart and healthy people.

        • Filip

          Than we better burie the Ecat.

  • Lu

    Nothing motivates like money – not altruism, technology, truth, devious intentions by bankers, or any number of things that have been mentioned.

    If and when LENR proves to be commercially economical, it will be adopted and in direct proportion to its ability to make someone money, which is society’s general measure of value.

    Fossil fuels have been the basis of our civilization’s tremendous successes over the past two centuries because it is relatively cheap and provides a tremendous energy store. True, there are other costs that we are just starting to become aware of as well as eventual depletion of supply but that won’t happen for a long time. Why? Because it’s still economical to use fossil fuels, it’s still very plentiful, and we either don’t fully understand or are willing to tolerate it’s full costs (environment, wars, lifestyle choices, etc).

    There is no need to hope for LENR’s adoption if it’s promise is as many of us believe. Nor is there a need to evangelize it’s promise. Rossi, whose stated goal is to be like Microsoft, is working hard for the money and if he has the goods things will take care of themselves. If not Rossi there will be others. Really we are at the mercy of nature and the ingenuity of the scientists and inventors who are investigating LENR.

    • Money comes in two polarities, gain and loss. The various interested factions will therefore have different money motivations regarding LENR, according to their calculations of potential losses and profits. However at the top of the heap are the banking houses that own virtually all top level corporate industries, and it will be decisions taken at that level that decide when and exactly the technology will be introduced.

      Seen from the outside, there are gains to be made in running costs if LENR is used to retrofit existing power generation facilites, against which the losses to the gas and oil production industries and the nuclear industry can be offset. On the other hand if home power systems were to be introduced, losses to virtually all involved sectors except the Chinese metal bashing industry would be absolutely assured.

      Like Frank I hope that the technology will make a difference, but this hope is tempered by the certainty that it’s introduction will be managed by the bankers and their close associates.

      I would be fascinated to know how this development is being discussed at this year’s Bilderberg meeting and how TPTB plan to ensure that their losses are minimised and their gains are maximised. If any politicians display sudden changes in direction in the near future, in ways that are connected with energy policies, then we may find out.

      • Lu

        Interesting comments but remember financial houses make money both ways. Besides, most energy resources are not controlled by private enterprise but by nations where those resources reside. I don’t believe we are ruled by bankers, although banks do play an important role in our economy.

        I don’t think we will ever get rid of the grid per say. Even with solar, if one wants to get off the grid then one needs expensive batteries making it a losing financial proposition. E-Cats for one cannot be turned on and off like our current utility provided power and the excess generated electricity has to go somewhere and be monitored and controlled. The grid would be the best place for this.

        My comment basically is saying the the free market (I believe it’s mostly free) will work in this case and overcome any attempts to inhibit LENR’s adoption. This assumes that LENR achieves its commercial promise as a technology and I suppose that is what I am hoping for.

        • “Revealed – the capitalist network that runs the world”
          “When the team further untangled the web of ownership, it found much of it tracked back to a “super-entity” of 147 even more tightly knit companies – all of their ownership was held by other members of the super-entity – that controlled 40 per cent of the total wealth in the network. “In effect, less than 1 per cent of the companies were able to control 40 per cent of the entire network,” says Glattfelder. Most were financial institutions. The top 20 included Barclays Bank, JPMorgan Chase & Co, and The Goldman Sachs Group.”

          • GreenWin

            Braha suspects they will compete in the market but act together on common interests. Resisting changes to the network structure may be one such common interest.

            Surprising New Scientist is taking this tack. They have been a prime rubber stamp for super-entity agendas – e.g. climate change. They also follow the LENR blackout, demonstrating zero independent thought.

          • Lu

            Just because these companies hold stock in other companies does not necessarily imply the ability to control as suggested by the lead. You probably are invested in some point in one of the companies mentioned–I know I am. I’m not convinced.

          • Lu – no relevant investements, just an awareness that has grown while following the wider context of the CF story, that what the banking houses don’t already control, they plan to take over very soon.

            Control the capital and you control most things, and can buy ‘influence’ over the rest.

          • @Greenwin “Surprising New Scientist is taking this tack.”
            Yes, I was surprised when I read this in NS. As you say, they are in effect part of the controlled MSM, so the editor must have been on holiday. No mention of the Rothschild (or to a lesser extent the Rockefeller) bankster houses though (the top level), which seems to be an interesting omission.

  • Mark

    LENR is only partly about hope.
    For some in became a religion.
    We wake up every morning, turn on
    the computer, and look for a miracle
    from Rossi, Hagelstein, or Mills.
    The same happened in the 60’s with
    the hot fusion.We had a theory,
    a working demo(the Sun), close,
    but no cigars.
    We are trying not to see a difference
    between the prove-of-concept experiments
    and customer-acceptance tests. All LENR
    is the former one.When we step to the
    latter, something happens. What is it?
    Is it that any closed system tends to
    get to the state of equilibrium ? And
    what is the state of equilibrium – NO REACTION ?

    • john29302

      Actually things hoped for isnt hope. science is measurable. tangible. proven. shown. etc. and there is no science yet to substantiate. its an anomaly until lenr does an overyunity task. then if it were…then fossil fuels producers have a threat to more money imaginable. thats when you all hell will break loose if there is an overunity device in existance. most americans could buy land with enuff water falling down a hill to put in a 5000 dollar generator to get off the grid for life. of course that land would deplete in a day it it were trending. but its available now and no one wants it, its not conveneient. like electric cars. say what happened to the 5 billion dollars in recovery package to develop the super battery? why we using lead acid batteries like henry ford did? means 30 mile range versus 100 mile range. buncha liars and thieves thats why.

    • Barry

      That’s a good point Mark, sometimes I wonder if we are putting more faith into technology, Cold Fusion and robotics. I have to confess they offer me more hope than mainstream religion, but I would place a lot more stock in our own individual, spiritual paths of self discovery.
      At the end of the day though, I think people who are miserable in their own world are going to be miserable after Cold Fusion comes into fruition. And those with hope, and as Frank said “the excitement of being alive” already have what’s life affirming.

  • Stephen Taylor

    Paper by Dr. Edmund Storms. An Explanation of Low Energy Nuclear Reactions (cold fusion). June 2012

    • GreenWin

      A quick look suggests Storms is onto the NAE (Nuke Active Environment) as his prime thesis. He suggests the nano-scale gap or fissure size is a main factor and the appearance of coherent X-radiation confirms a fusion process.

      Odd he does not acknowledge Randell Mills’ many experiments confirming appearance of soft x-ray spectra in pinch plasmas. Storms essentially confirms Mills with the exception of coherence and fractional Rydberg atomic H.

      We can expect to see an entire new field of atomic physics (Atom Unexplored) based on a theory of particle subset wave function. That is, viewing atomic and sub-atomic particles as energy vertices derived from wave interference.

    • Shane D.

      The mainstream high energy physics community has taken issue with LENR based on their knowledge of the known science.

      Interesting here with Storms, who is part of that same community, where in this abstract he runs through the various LENR/LENT theories and finds fault with each based on classic physiscs also… just like his peers have done for 23 years now.

      But where his colleagues see this as proof of pseudoscience and attack the methodolgy and integrity of the LENR researchers, Storms instead says: there is something unique happening, I don’t know why it happens, but these are the conditions I see favorable to the effect… now lets find out why.

      Good man. The hot-fusion community could learn alot from his approach.

      • Mark

        The Storm’s article underscores one more time
        how fuzzy is the science behind LENR -from
        totally QM of Widom-Larsen, to classic calculations by Zdinarsic, to the new,
        nanotube model, that is now in the pipeline.
        All these hypothesis are trying to explain
        only how the LENR is initiated, nobody
        attempts to calc how the ongoing reaction
        can be stabilized, not to go downhill.
        It is a mind-boggling mess.

        • In order to study a phenomena, you must first be able to conjure up the phenomena and to gather data. If you can start the phenomena up and keep it going then you have made the first step that will allow you to gather data. Extending the time period and dampening the variations in output comes next and finally, with enough variations of the parameters that govern the phenomena on might be able to draw a line through a plot of the data and declare they have a theory.

          • Mark

            It means “back to the drawing
            board”, back to the labs.
            So, why Rossi is talking
            about a commercial heater,
            why Defkalion promises it
            in 2013 ? Usually, the commercial stuff comes on the heels of
            a solid theoretical and experimental research,
            like it happened with radio,
            TV, or nuclear reactions.
            So, is Rossi a real deal?

      • GreenWin

        Excellent observation Shane. However with the Italian Dept of Energy ENEA confirmation a decade of cold fusion collaboration with SRI Intl., Energetics Ltd., Naval Research Lab, DARPA, Brookhaven, and NASA’s three divisions all working on LENR – we can expect new discoveries to lead to better theoretical understanding.

        Recall that there were some physicists who were not certain the chain reaction in the first nuclear bomb would eventually stop. They suggested the possibility Almagordo could destroy the entire planet.

        For fuzzy thinkers, developing working theories for phenomena is “mind boggling.” For informed consensual scientists it is a stimulating part of the process.

  • GreenWin

    A philosophy of science class presupposed a virtual world, using holographic technology to simulate the contemporary material world. A disruptive, economy-shaking technology (like low cost fusion) was then introduced into this virtual world. The sim was run for many months while the class studied its different socio-economic evolutions.

    First results demonstrated negative tribal reactions from old economies and their overseer financier bankers. Protectionism both economic and militaristic appeared, attempting to quash the new technology with skunk works and rumours of safety issues. Initially opponents elected a smear campaign to try to discredit supporters of the new technology.

    Next, monopolization schemes arose. Various methods, legal and scientific to claim proprietary control of the technology were introduced. These appeared to gain support as the skunk works and safety rumours failed.

    But third parties un-allied with either supporter or opposition tribes began to reproduce the disruptive technology. This spread public acceptance via alternative social media and as public awareness rose – so did demand for the technology.

    In the last segment of the sim, the overseer tribe claimed the disruptive technology as their own and used their position to commercialize it. However, by then there were many interests adopting the new tech and the overseers’ influence was greatly diminished. The net result was the elevation of economic power in nearly all tribes – except the overseers (who already had majority.)

    When I read this, it occurred to me this looked a bit like the reaction of Rome to the growth of Christianity – including the 3rd century adoption by Constantine. While this was strictly a simulation, it suggested a believable path by which even a highly disruptive technology could be successfully introduced and caused to flourish.

    Most interesting was how the overseer tribe, like Constantine and Siricius before, reversed its opposition role and staged a successful campaign as the… “Father of New Fusion.”

  • GreenWin

    Frank, thank you for your insightful remarks this morning. Yours is the even-handed attitude needed to keep motivation and spirit alive against the behemoth of opposition. One thought arises via the relative short term that oil has dominated energy. It is really only the last century that has been controlled by oil barons. Before that, coal barons for several centuries. But the conversion of horsepower to mechanical horsepower happened in less than 25 years. Once LENR products become available – we can expect a similar transition.

    LENR is now a clearly proven science (yet to be understood) derived from the F&P Effect. As you point out Frank, with so many inventors, scientists and researchers at work – it is destined to change the world – for the better. Good day to all.

  • georgehants

    Learn from yesterday, live for today, hope for tomorrow. The important thing is not to stop questioning.
    Albert Einstein

    If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed.
    Albert Einstein

  • clovis

    Hi, Frank.
    Back on one of the older free energy forums
    I need not mention which one,–smile– I was often criticized for being hopeful,and being a dreamer.
    new things do not come from passion,love,enjoyment or fun.
    It comes from screwing up and doing it wrong until you finally, finally, finally get it right. failure is not an option.
    And it comes from good old-fashioned hard work.
    skeptics can have their say, but alone they are mostly hot air.
    Sweat changes things– not hot air.

    • Ecat-news has become a swarm of hissing snakes; don’t waste your time there. The owner of that site lacks the common sense to apply a guiding hand.

    • Barry

      Clovis, in the story of Faust, he sold his soul to the devil for all of the secrets of Alchemy, but then he could no longer enjoy passion, love, enjoyment or the fun of scientific discovery. I think they’re a big part of our motivational body that pushes us along. It is true of science and perhaps more so of the arts. They are both nurtured from our dreams.

      I for one would not criticize you for being hopeful or a dreamer, but would admire those aspects and feel you are fortunate. Peace and Light, Barry

  • What an eloquent and inspiring post! As one of those people whom you describe – waiting with hope and anticipation for a sea change – I have a deep personal appreciation for your views. As a journalist with a long family history in politics, I know that there are things people can do in the private sector that can make a substantial diofference. Among those is contacting your Congressman and demanding more than the pathetic $200,000 in funding NASA receives for its LENR research. Another is to bombard the presidential candidates – Mitt Romney, Barack Obama, Ron Paul – with telephone calls, handwritten letters and email asking them to turn their attention to the new ways that are in the works to reduce our dependence on foreign oil and to innovate in energy production. I am now counting four different technologies under study to do that: LENR, hydrino, cavitation and buoyancy. Bringing these to market – and bringing the news of them to this audience, as you do so ably – is our real hope for the future. Charge on!

    • jacob

      Buoyancy, a company called HIDRO

      Cavitation, a company called GRIGGS hydrosonics

    • Bouyancy is blather that only confuses the poorly educated. Hydrino I will believe when they put out a product or actually sell kilo-watt-hours.

  • gerard2012

    Bravo for your text that is totally true for me.
    Today I am convinced and this is my intuition, that cold fusion or LENR type of phenomenon is a new field of exploration and that P & F and Andrea Rossi and others have just opened the door a little bit of that new “truth” of physics.
    Publications such as “Alberto Carpinteri’s LENR theories” confirms my idea. Nature in all these areas physical, biological or otherwise., Has too much creativity, since the world of matter and life are not to use this energy already.
    The discoveries of Darwin and others are witnesses of the great creativity of Mother Nature.
    According to this hypothesis we must recognize that cold fusion / LENR is officially recognized by NASA confirmed and signed and said work actively on this energy.

    An Italian policy officially acknowledges the existence of a scientific anomaly LENR.

    For me the paradigm of current energy modes is questioned …

    Finally a deciding set is almost won, it’s recognition as a minimum a physical abnormality in the process of theory explanation, by fathers and a recognition of the political credibility. To me the truth is he made the right road …

    Progress is underway!

    In french
    Bravo pour votre texte c’est totalement vrai pour moi.
    Aujourd’hui je suis convaincu et cela est mon intuition, que la fusion froide ou tout type de phénomène LENR sont un nouveau champs d’exploration et que P&F ainsi que Andrea Rossi et d’autres ont juste ouvert un petit peu la porte de cette nouvelle “vérité” de la physique.
    Des publications comme celle de “Alberto Carpinteri’s LENR Théories” me conforte dans cette idée. La nature dans tous ces domaines physique, biologique ou autres., a trop de créativités, depuis que le monde de la matière et du vivant existe pour ne pas déjà utiliser cette énergie.
    Les découvertes de Darwin et d’autres sont témoins de la très grande créativité de notre Mère Nature.
    Après cette hypothèse il faut reconnaître que la fusion froide/LENR est reconnue officiellement par la NASA qui persiste et signe et dit travailler activement sur cette énergie.

    Un politique Italien reconnait officiellement l’existence d’une anomalie scientifique LENR.

    Pour moi le paradigme des modes énergétiques actuelle est mis en cause…

    Finalement une manche décisive est quasiment gagné, c’est la reconnaissance a minima d’une anomalie physique en voie d’explication par la théorie, par les pères et une reconnaissance d’une crédibilité par les politiques. Pour moi la vérité est a pris la bonne route…

    Le progrès est en route!

    • We are close to having NASA “officially” say there is something to LENR but not quite.

      Your said: “An Italian policy officially acknowledges the existence of a scientific anomaly LENR.” I have not heard that was true; maybe I misunderstood you.

      The breakthrough in LENR acknowledgment will come when Rossi puts a product on the shelf somewhere in the world. After that point will come the breakthrough in LENR research when the scientific community acknowledges there is something worth studying and dares to touch the “Third Rail of Science.”

  • admin

    It has been interesting to read the comments on this article so far — thanks for all the contributions. There are lots of puzzles to be solved regarding LENR itself; once useful products come to light there will be additional problems to solve in terms of its effects on the world — but it seems that this whole field presents a way forward from current situations and opens the door for lots of possibilities. Lots to learn along the way which I think will demand the attention of creative minds.

  • daniel maris

    The new Storm theory just underlines that there have been long periods in science before now where puzzling phenomena have prompted several competing and mutually exclusive theories.

    • Regarding Storms’ paper ( It sounds like he has an idea of how LENR works, but isn’t ready to discuss the details yet. He seems to believe in reality of the E-cat and think (as Rossi) that Rossi-Focardi beta decay ideas published 2 years ago are not relevant. Storms’ “experiment first” approach of ruling out classes of theories based on key experimental findings appears as generally fruitful, although I do not necessarily buy all his reasoning.

      The paper doesn’t solve the problem, but is a welcome addition to the debate and in some respects sets a reasonably high logical standard. I would have preferred some less grandiose title.

  • Pingback: The Motivating Power of Hope for LENR | ColdFusion | Cold Fusion | Free Energy !()

  • s

    Hope is indeed a strong force. I hope that one day LENR will work to solve the world’s problems.

    Reality, though, is a much stronger force than hope. I’ve worked in real world industry and I can tell you with each claim made about the Ecat, the possibility of it’s becoming reality dims.

    In the real world, when a prototype design passes testing it immediately goes into production and manufactuirng in order to make something that sells. And, if the prototype design changes, new testing will need to be done, which invalidates all earlier testing. This applies to the Ecat because we were told the prototype Ecat design passed testing in Jan 2011. Instead of going to manufacturing to make a product, every few weeks or months we are told of a new, improved Ecat design in testing. This cycle of new design/test new design/test has been repeating for almost 18 months now. In the real world, if something as simple as a small device to heat water took 18 months of iterative re-design of a prototype that was claimed to have passed testing, the project would have been scrapped long ago.

    The pattern of neverending redesigns and claims of new testing without ever making it to the real-world step of actual production and manufacturing is the same pattern that many penny stock companies and alternative energy companies follow. People who have worked in real industry know that when a device is claimed to have passed so many tests, but it never makes it to manufacturing, something might not be right.

    • Tom

      I thought Rossi was adamant that he is going into production with the original Ecat design right away. Though he’s being painfully secretive if he has. The new, improved designs are the 1MW units from my understanding. If Rossi can get just one factory churning the home units out, lets hope they work, then the truth is out in the open and he can crank up the volume.

    • jacob

      I agree, it seems to take a long time for more news to come out about the Ecat,but when designing and testing prototypes there is a testing period required to see how the Prototype holds up,and after the testing period it is taken apart and checked for wear or and then improvements and changes made,and tested again,this is a new Technology and requires brand new prototypes to be built,that have not been built before,so experience is gained while learning to do the improvements,the testing period
      takes a lot of time,and we are waiting

    • s

      I’m sorry but you two have not been following the Ecat story closely since Jan 2011. You should read up on all the claims made since then before commenting.

      There are two types of tests: tests to show a prototype design is ready for production and manufacturing and hype/publicity tests that are “designed to pass”. Hype/publicity “designed to pass” tests are easy to spot because a few weeks/months/years later a new design also under testing always shows up. These tests usually pass but the designs rarely seem to advance into manufactuing.

      • Tom

        Thanks for pointing that out. But I’ve been following fairly closely since then and I don’t think Rossi has said which tests his are. Also I’ll comment when I want to, regardless of what I know.

  • About guessing what could be the news that Rossi is scheduled to report next. Given that he has already revealed that 600 C has been running for 40+ days, that’s probably not going to be the news. Maybe the news will be a device that produces overunity electric COP, i.e. a generator coupled with a 600 C device. No fusion or LENR device has demonstrated it before. This is only my guess which is based on public info.

  • georgehants

    Just say the quality of many of the responses on this page give one HOPE for the future.
    The Internet is bringing back the ancient skill of writing that for many has been almost totally lost.
    Without money forcing people to wear a suit of armour that hides their natural care and concern for others, I think it could be a Wonderful World.

    • zero

      I can’t help but wonder how much of it is frank deleting the obvious shrills though.

      • admin

        So far, I don’t think I have deleted any posts on this thread yet.

  • GreenWin

    With the explosion of activity in LENR (Kirivt calls it the ‘goldrush’) more of the competitors are coming out of their dens. All of which demonstrates the move to open disclosure of how this technology will be introduced so as to cause the least disruption and most benefit. One major step is western government disclosing previously classified LENR research.

    With the Italian Dept of Energy ENEA confirmation a decade of cold fusion collaboration with SRI Intl., Energetics Ltd., Naval Research Lab, DARPA, Brookhaven, and NASA’s three divisions all working on LENR – we can expect new discoveries to lead to better theoretical understanding.

    Recall that there were some physicists who were not certain the chain reaction in the first nuclear bomb would eventually stop. They suggested the possibility Almagordo could destroy the entire planet.

    For fuzzy thinkers, developing working theories for phenomena is “mind boggling.” For informed consensual scientists it is a stimulating part of the process.

    “Reality” is simple collective consciousness. When enough people agree to the benefit of something new – it enters reality.

    • s

      I think people in the alternative energy community often mistake claims for scientific proof. Show me one example of LENR producing 500Watts or more of power that is backed by an independent authority. Can’t? Then all the LENR chatter should be considered claims, talk, publicity and hype. Just because everybody on this website except me seems to believe all alternative energy claims without any independent proof does not make the claims real. Just because 10,000 or 100,00 or however many people pre-order a device where no data has been presented to show it works for more than several hours does not make the device work as stated.

      • GreenWin

        Read some of the 1400 peer-reviewed journal papers, presentations, and talks. Then get back to me. You sound awful lot like fibber mageedsm. Cheers;)

        • s

          I’m almost certain that none of those papers show a power of 500W or more. A significant percentage of them don’t show power even over 5W. If I am wrong, please point me to an independently verified LENR experiment that shows power of 500W or greater.