How Big of a Story is Cold Fusion?

I usually like to look at what people are saying on the vortex-l mailing list, because I find there is a lot of interesting discussion of cold fusion-related topics there, and some smart and well informed posters contributing. I was particularly struck with a post there by Jed Rothwell, who was discussing what really was on- and off-topic when it comes to discussions about cold fusion. He said in part:

Cold fusion is a broad subject. If we overcome the opposition and cold fusion energy is used, historians, sociologists, economists and others will eventually write thousands of books on this subject, trying to explain what happened, why it happened . . .

Cold fusion is the most important discovery in the recorded history of technology. Only a few prehistoric discoveries such as fire and domesticated animals outweigh it. It will revolutionize many aspects of daily life, and many other technologies. It will force us to rethink our attitudes toward science and research, funding for research, and our ideas about where technology originates, who gets the credit, and who should get the profits. It will change history; it will change the face of the earth . . .

Needless to say, if we cannot overcome the political opposition, or if Rossi and the other researchers continue to act as their Own Worst Enemies, then cold fusion will be a forgotten footnote to history, and we will continue to blunder our way to ecological disaster and world-wide poverty with existing energy systems.

Rothwell is one of the most well known figures in the community that takes cold fusion seriously. He owns and operates the LENR/ web site which is a library of research literature in the cold fusion field that goes back to its beginnings in 1989 with Pons and Fleischmann. In his estimation, this story is one of the most important that can be told, and yet no one here needs to be reminded of the reality that relatively speaking, very few people are paying attention to it.

The topic of media coverage comes up a lot in CF discussions. Why, if this is such an important topic. are we not learning about it in the press, or hearing about it on TV, radio and the big media web sites? Jed Rothwell seems to see fault in the researchers themselves, particularly Andrea Rossi. Rothwell, while strongly convinced that Rossi has presented proof in his demos of the validity of his technology, has criticized Rossi for the quality of his experiments, and for the way he carries out his business.

Rossi, for his part, is unapologetic for his secretive approach, saying he much prefers to work in peace than to have interested parties swarming around his workplace and bothering those he is working with. When asked recently whether he thought there was a media blackout on LENR technology, Rossi responded, “I think that we have to work and to make plants which work properly. The media articles are a consequence of what happens in reality. When our plants will be working in public sites the media will report the facts.”

Rossi’s approach makes sense. So long as his work remains hidden, there will be little media attention, and he will be left alone. When he has working products that can be examined by the public, then the media can start reporting — and help him with his marketing.

What about all the others who are doing work in the LENR field? As far as I know, no one as yet has working LENR products in the marketplace, and competitive instincts seem to keep people from disclosing much about what they are doing. Without disclosures or working devices, it is hard for the media to report on much, except for what people are saying.

I think Jed Rothwell may well be correct in his estimation of the importance of cold fusion’s place in the history of science. I believe there is plenty of evidence out there that the phenomenon is real. But I also understand the media’s reluctance to focus on the topic when there is so much about it that is either hidden, or not too convincing. I think that Andrea Rossi is right when he says that properly working products in the public domain will be the drivers of media attention. When that happens, I fully expect that LENR will begin to be recognized for the highly important story that it is.

  • edog

    Nice report Frank!

  • AstralProjectee

    Good story. I also agree that this will be huge, very huge. I have also figured that we need to rethink our current understanding when and if these devices come to market. We need to examine the way we research and fund science.


    • Kim

      Yes we do need to examine the way we do research
      and fund science.

      I think the solution is in the word “fund” as in

      Money creates the division, it serves no function.
      It will only lead to secrecy and control.

      A Scientist’s intelligent, skill, morals can
      be rewarded by using his inherent abilities in
      an “equity system” of value transferred.

      Money and free energy can not exist together.
      They are diametrically opposed to each other.

      As we slide into the new paradigm of free energy
      society, money will slowly become irrelevant.

      But you are right about examination.


      • conrad

        The bankers will still have mortgages on property all over the planet, copper wire will be needed – they will own the lines. Cars – will all all need to be converted – tonnes more IP and patents. If your paying power and and gas you will have more money to spend on other stuff. rocket ships to the moon…
        Its gonna take 20 years just to get cheap elec. for much of the population. another 20 to change over most cars. Oil will be cheap , so I will keep using mine probably.

        They have plenty of ways to make more money, and control all of us – WW3 for example ha

        • GreenWin

          conrad, loaned money on reasonable terms is not a social detriment. World Bank loans to emerging nations on usurious terms IS. Very low cost energy will enable hundreds of sovereign nations to build infrastructure without indebtedness to central banks.

          The stranglehold of “funding” will no longer prevent enterprising people from building their own businesses and lives.

          WW3 could only happen if people buy the BS stories of fear and loathing fomented by the overseers.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Kim – “Money creates the division, it serves no function.”
        Unless you wanna buy something…like stuff.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          “Communism doesn’t work because people like to own stuff.” – Frank Zappa

          • Tom

            Communism was based around money because it was based around energy. When that’s free, communism might be our best option. Although I’d like the name changed so people don’t have the “communism is the devil” attitude. I’m sure Frank, bless his eternal soul, would agree somewhat if he realised stuff can be gotten for nothing.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            People are free to join a hippie commune now. Why impost that lifestyle on everyone?

            Because communists detest freedom. They want to control everyone else.

            No, you wouldn’t need money if you are able to freely mooch on your neigbors’ stuff.


          • GreenWin

            Hey Ig, I’m returning the bicycle I found in your garage last year. I swear that wheel was bent when I borrowed it!

  • Kim

    I have said this many many many times before
    and it goes like this…

    When main stream media gives the green light on
    Cold Fusion…

    The bankers will be finished.

    The bankers are holding up the show.

    The two things cannot exist (bankers/cold fusion)in
    the same space in a large context of time.


    • Kim

      JP Morgan understood that money and energy are one
      and the same item.

      If I can’t meter it… I can’t control

      In other words he knew that free energy and banking/money can not function together.

      This is the crux of why it does not make the main
      stream news. Bankers control It! Money People.

      We have given the bankers their time and look where
      it has gotten them.

      Its pretty obvious that its time for free energy,
      the bankers are losing it as I speak…

      We have been hypnotized into actually believing
      they have a function.


      • Entirely agreed Kim. Morgan’s treatment of Tesla was probably the real beginning of the rot. We certainly can’t expect any better of the bankers now. Their interests are directly opposed to ours.

      • jacob

        Jp Morgan ,Kim you got it right.

      • GreenWin

        Peter, Kim, jacob, let’s not forget the Church (aka central bank) during Copernicus and Galileo’s time. Allow the plebeians to know our planet (i.e. Church) was NOT the center of the universe????

    • Roger Bird

      Utter hogwash. You are really short stroking your lefty resentment there, Kim.

      • Kim

        I’m not sure what it is I’m resenting.

        yes there will be plenty of bankers for
        a while, and free energy will make everybody Rich!

        I have no doubt what so ever about that.

        I’m talking about the end game, when free
        energy is ambiguous as air.

        Money will be irrelevant.

        How did you know I was left handed.


        • conrad

          The BIG difference now is the internet – information revolution.
          They just can’t stop Rossi getting his ideas out there.
          If he was doing the same stuff 15 years ago – he would have have just disappeared! You know that works ha

        • What a few thousand armchair blog readers think they know is almost immaterial. Where would we be if a dozen or so websites where we gather to sound off suddenly experienced sustained DOS attacks, ran into ‘technical problems’ or suddenly found they had fatally contravened their TOS in some unexplained way? The fact is that internet or no, any awareness of LENR could be wiped out virtually overnight by any serious entity.

          Few of us know who anyone else really is, or have any methods of contact outside blogs. It is probably safe to say that few if any of us have any influential contacts (most of us can’t even get our spouses or friends to take this stuff seriously).

          In short we are virtually powerless to challenge whatever is decided by those who have the real power. I don’t think we’ve seen more than a shadow of what could be done to either disappear this technology or to assume complete control of it, and brave words won’t cut the mustard.

          • admin

            Interesting point, Peter. I have had a few moments when for one reason or another this site was unavailable (usually due to technical problems at the hosting company) and I have wondered what would happen if the site was attacked by hostile entities.

            However, unless countries which now have a free press start to block certain web sites as happens in some nations, I think it would be hard to put a lid on the spreading of knowledge about CF/LENR.

            Communication can be disrupted, sure, but with all the web publishing tools available these days I think it would be hard to completely stamp out the Internet discussions.

          • georgehants

            Admin, A free Website is useless, as Peter says the number of destroyers always overpower the fair-minded.
            Without you, to moderate away these people, the result is, survival of the ? (I am not sure what to call these people).
            Thanks for your time Frank.

          • Kim

            Very Very Good Discussion about a very real issue.

            I ran this through my brain also at one time

            I think we all have

            Does Uncle Rossi have a back up plan for full disclosure of his secret catalyst???

            Otherwise we could be set back to the use of fire again.


          • Possibly I’m overestimating what could be done to stop the spread of a particular idea, but I don’t think so.

            When you look at (for instance) the lengths that the EU government has gone to in order to suppress availability of herbal remedies ( you have to wonder.

            Wikileaks and the pirate file sharers show what can happen when powerful parties want certain websites to go away.

          • GreenWin

            Frank, with due respect, please study what China has done.

          • Omega Z


            I agree with Peter, However I think TPTB have screwed things up so bad that there willing to let LENR out of the Bottle. They’ve ran out of tricks of their own to fix their mess.

            I think their just wrangling with the situation at present figuring out how to maintain control over the technology.

            Maintain the Status quote, You know.

          • Yes, that my take on it, too.

          • georgehants

            Google sees ‘alarming’ uptick in government censorship
            Published June 18, 2012
            Associated Press
            Read more:

          • The freedom of the internet is indeed coming increasing pressure from many directions. Google itself could easily become a major tool of censorship, as it is already in China.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          “Money will be irrelevant.”
          Unless you wanna buy something.

        • jacob

          you are right on ,Kim

      • jacob

        Roger,you are probably completely right in your own mind,based on your own knowledge,or are you some one who has much to lose if LENR becomes a real success ?

    • andrea

      bankers and power controllers are three steps forward. Whenever cold fusion will be allowed, they will be well in control of the situation… unfortunately

      • GreenWin

        Only if you allow it andrea. The world – i.e. our perception of “reality” is utterly malleable. If YOU choose to see LENR in the hands of the people – it WILL be. If you choose the bankers and power controllers to commandeer it – silly as it seems – in THIS game, you get what you believe.

        • That’s very philosophical Greenwin! It’s true that we filter our perceptions of ‘reality’ individually, but we usually seem to arrive at much the same place. Otherwise we would all be mutually incomprehensible, unless we are all figments of each other’s imaginations (although I have recently run into a few individuals who seems to inhabit a parallel universe where different rules apply).

          There are as many sets of beliefs and expectations as there are people, so the logical concomitant of your ‘game’ scenario is that each of us resides in a unique configuration of the game, which could not be shared by any other individual. Or perhaps it is a ‘multi-player’ game, but in that case we each have to live with the consensus outcome, and our individual beliefs are more or less irrelevant.

          Enough – its far too early in the day for that kind of stuff, and anyway I’m stone cold sober!

          • GreenWin

            Hoist ye a warm pint and rock on Peter.

      • GreenWin

        Which is, BTW, a game on the order of sophistication like Pac Man – IMHO.

    • Filip

      CF devices have to be fabricated in all sorts of types(billions of them), that’s where the money is. that’s where the bankers are. also remember: there is no such thing as bankers, it’s not a happy family, they are eachothers enemies.

      • Tom

        And when those people get rich and everyone has all the energy they need, including the energy it takes to fabricate anything they want, what are these rich people going to spend their money on? Once energy/power is in everybody’s hands, there won’t be a monetary system worth subjugating yourself to.

        • Filip

          you are right but it’s not going to happen overnight, new opportunities will emerge. Everything is going to shift that for sure, the rest is unpredictable and premature.
          Also if a real selfsustaing and safe and stable CF reactor exist, the planet is going to be much larger, we are able to inhabit places that are yet hostile for humans, like oceans, deserts, the poles, etc

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          Tom- “what are these rich people going to spend their money on?”
          Ans: Stuff

          • GreenWin

            Yeah. Like shoes, and bon bons. And bodyguards.

          • Politicians and officials mostly – as they do now.

            Fortifications, alarm systems and Vulcan guns might come in handy too.

          • Tom

            But they can get stuff without money. Everyone will be on an equal playing field when it comes to acquisition of stuff. It sure won’t be an instant change but these rich people will become less and less relevant.

      • jacob

        one free energy device made it to market by the was called the crystal radio,needed no batteries,powered by self,but a shame it is no longer built.

        • GreenWin

          However you can still build one with a tickler coil, germanium crystal and set of headphones. Good point jacob.

          • I built one as a kid that used a tiny speaker attached to a wooden board on which a safety pin, a length of pencil graphite, a razor blade and a coil were mounted. I had no idea how it worked then, and I’m no wiser now.

            Unfortunately all these gadgets are doing is converting radio energy from transmitters to sound. Or am I missing some irony here?

          • jacob

            Peter and Greenwin,the truth is the radio station’s transmitter sends out power in the form of radio frequency and one can put billions of receivers around the transmitter without diminishing the output of the transmitter,therefor causing massive free energy,according to DON SMITH ,replicating simple Tesla technology

          • jacob

            if anyone is interested,it is ‘don smith free energy’and i tried to replicate one of his units and though it would be fun,i built a tesla coil,measured exact lenght of wires and made a tesla coil,powered by a neon power supply at 9000volts and 30000 hertz,and got shocked several times
            with out touching any wires,i vowed never to work with high voltage again,i got shocked twice,with one hand in my pocket

          • Jacob, you should probably read this before spending time or money on Don Smith’s ‘device’:

          • jacob

            I regret trying to replicate don’s device,but never the less I learned something from it.thanks peter for the info

          • Admin, I am a little puzzled as to why you deleted my post linking to someone who had met Don Smith and suggesting that Jacob might take a look.

          • admin

            For some reason, Peter, that went automatically into the spam file. I just fished it out.

          • Thanks Frank. Not exactly timeless wisdom, but it did seem a bit odd that it disappeared!

  • Robert Mockan

    Rothwell is aware of other energy technology that outshines cold fusion, but in the context of what will probably change society in the near future he is correct it is an important discovery. I disagree with saying it the “most” important, but certainly it ranks up in the top dozen or so. But why has it not been reported on more? Well, what comes to mind is another story, that few people have heard, that might shed light on that. But read it for yourself here:

    Note that the link is of a report that was made in 2001, that was 8(!) years after the invention was made public. All these years the technology of “space energy conversion”, able to do much more than “cold fusion” ever will, has been ready to go commercial.

    Is this possible? Well, I attended an energy convention many years ago in Boston hosted by Dr. Eugene Mallove, where Dr. Correa gave a lecture on the space energy technology. Before Mallove was murdered he examined the devices the Correa Labofex laboratory had perfected, and he concluded it operated as described. So convinced that he personally also made efforts to try to see it commercialized.

    Another technology delayed from being developed. How many millions of people must die before this, and LENR, are finally brought to market?

    • You can feel the sheer weariness and frustration of the interviewees. In ‘ordinary life’ you don’t tend to meet with the types of people described, but go just a little higher into any organised system of control and you find many twisted and very strange people who seem to regard facts as a commodity to be manipulated for their own purposes. Even in dealings with a local council or a ‘grass roots’ environmental organisation you find the kind of malevolent stupidity mentioned, and most mainstream politicians have elevated such sociopathic behaviour to an artfrom. The Correas obviously have no more idea of how to deal with this kind evil irrationality than any other rational people.

      “But a few excellent people cannot change, by themselves, this massive machinery of lies, graft and corruption – they cannot turn the tables on the stupidity and malevolence that reigns in every corner of this globe.”

      I think anyone who has encountered the kind of organised malicious negativism that is rife on some other blogs, and is aware of the very real embargo against mention of CF in the media and ‘science’, is also aware that there is a massive fight ahead if we are ever to see new sciences that threaten the establishment seeing the light of day. Upper level malevolence manipulating lower level stupidity is a winning combination. Optimistic expectations that ‘the genie is out of the bottle’ and cannot be stopped in the case of LENR are entirely misplaced at this stage.

      • “art form” of course.

      • georgehants

        Good one Peter, Your, “Upper level malevolence manipulating lower level stupidity is a winning combination.” needs to become a common Quote. (or is it already, I must have missed it.)
        Think I might change “stupidity” to unhealthy reliance on the knowledge and integrity of the upper classes. ( Now I think again, that is probably stupidity.

        • George, I think the kind of unthinking dependency you refer to is another aspect of stupidity. You could call it ‘passive stupidity’. The individuals I have in mind are the ones that hide behind an ‘official’ framework to carry out their jobs with real active malignancy. This kind of completely irrational and often unreasoningly vindictive behaviour seems depressingly common (or perhaps I’ve just had the misfortune to run into it more frequently than is normal, during the course of one of my jobs). I suspect that people of this ilk are probably very easy to recruit if they think that co-operation will bring them more power or money. Morality doesn’t seem to be a particularly strong characteristic in a certain kind of dim witted, ignorant but avaricious individual.

          • georgehants

            Which means we rely on the integrity and fair-play of the elite etc.
            Unfortunately as you say, they mostly have no conception of leadership to a better World, just to a self-serving unequal World.
            We need some kind of Enlightenment in 2012.

          • NJT

            “Morality doesn’t seem to be a particularly strong characteristic in a certain kind of dim witted, ignorant but avaricious individual.”

            Wow Peter, I am impressed with your thoughts, impressions and great quotes…

        • NJT

          How about just plain ole ‘ignorance’ on the part of the sheep?

      • NJT

        “Upper level malevolence manipulating lower level stupidity is a winning combination.”

        Well said Peter and it applies right down to the local levels of government – it seems…

        • Glad its not just me then!

          • jacob

            There is many ,that see the light like you ,Peter.

      • GreenWin

        “But a few excellent people cannot change, by themselves…

        But excellent people working with the help of others, hidden or in plain sight – can and will do astonishing things. With nary a shot fired.

  • Roger Bird

    I sent this one to all my friends:

    “Cold fusion is the most important discovery in the recorded history of technology. Only a few prehistoric discoveries such as fire and domesticated animals outweigh it. It will revolutionize many aspects of daily life, and many other technologies. — Jed Rothwell, NASA”

    That is good news all by itself. Jed Rothwell has thrown down the gauntlet. He has committed his future career to the reality of cold fusion. I am surprised that I am the only one to notice this.

    • SH

      Jed Rothwell, NASA?

      Jed do not work for NASA, mate.. Thats not to say we should not listen to him, because he is absolutely right. But still, lets get our facts straight.

      • Roger Bird

        SH, why didn’t you straighten my facts out? It would have taken a few key strokes. I thought that he was at NASA.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          Roger, you were correct in that NA meant “not at”.

  • Kim

    Nice Report Frank, Thanks for being here.


  • Tom

    After posting on other sites and talking to friends, trying to spread word of the impending revolution, I get replies accusing me of wearing a tin foil hat and being a conspiracy nut-job. I don’t think there are any conspiracies in cold fusion but people are so confused with what to believe and what’s real that they resort to a stagnant state of mind where nothing will ever change. People will believe facts and proof, not stories and claims. The only way to get people on board is to get working devices into their homes. Here’s hoping Rossi or anyone else has the mettle to get there.

    • good analysis.
      it is also risky for most people, especially in high position, to only think about not rejecting LENR. and the risk to make a bad decision is null if they follow the consensus.
      (When I was younger, there was a motto in IT : it is never a mistake to chose IBM, even if it fails).

      the problem is that with LENR people refuse to use their usual reasoning, and are crazily frightened to make a mistake.

      for example for defkalion, ther is still no physical proof. however all behavioral proofs (their testing proposal, their careless silence, their continuous investments), sociologic proofs (the profile of their board members), the psychologic proofs (the behaviors of the engineer who answered on the forum), are clear that they have something rock solid (but maybe a problem)…

      it would be very rational to at least cover your financial position against the possibility that Defkalion have a real product… but nobody does it… ignoring the elephant in the living room.

      maybe the elephant have a 1% chance to be an inflatable rubber, but a least if there is something huge, noisy, smelly, in your living room, it is rational to go to the kitchen to take your coffee… just in case.

      This is irrational. people panic for one million less risk.
      however this can be predicted.

      • Mylan

        It is very interesting and absolutely correct that also important decission makers nearly always follow the mainstream. Then they are not the only ones who were wrong, and nobody can blame them.

        This is also exactly what happens in stock markets. Fund managers have to buy, when stocks are going higher and higher. They have to sell, when they fall lower and lower. They have to go with the herd, otherwise they could be blamed. And that’s why they hardly ever get better than average results.

        Question is, why do decission makers get a lot of money for taking average and often bad decission?

    • Filip


    • GreenWin

      Tom, people can be referred to the pile of papers, talks and lectures documenting 22 years of proofs. Or you can have them watch the 2009 CBS 60 Minutes program “No Longer Junk Science,” or either of the two official NASA videos (Dr. Zawodny) claiming there is a new form of energy and they are working on it.

      Or the LENR overview written by Dennis Bushnel Chief Scientist NASA LaRC. There is no longer any legit question of the validity of the science. There is a gap in understanding HOW it works and how to scale it for practical use.

  • georgehants

    For those who like to believe the Quantum is not applicable to the macro World.

    Two Diamonds Get Quantum Entangled, Physicists Report.
    At room temperatures.
    Atoms are governed by the strange laws of quantum physics—they can communicate across long distances, teleport, and perform myriad other acts that sound straight out of science fiction. But although we’re made up of atoms, we can’t do any of that stuff. We’re governed by the laws of classical, or Newtonian, physics, where there’s no teleporting allowed.

  • georgehants

    ‘One trillion dollars’ against fossil fuel subsidies.
    “There will be a day when our children, our grandchildren, will not have a future. The water is ending, the oceans are dirty, the rivers are polluted and we are asleep,” she said.
    Read more:

  • Pingback: How Big of a Story is Cold Fusion? | E-Cat News Live Feed()

  • georgehants

    From the Guardian.
    ‘Finance is an amoral world, bordering on the immoral’
    A psychologist compares the ‘twisted minds’ of some executives to those of paedophiles he has tried to treat in the past
    “I am sure your readers are familiar with psychological research comparing the personality traits of prison populations with those of successful managers. It found remarkable similarities; they are narcissistic, egocentric, manipulative … The research has been replicated over at least 12 different populations and the findings are consistent. Criminals and CEOs are remarkably similar.

    • georgehants

      Must say sounds exactly like the people who run the BBC.
      “They are narcissistic, egocentric, manipulative” …

      • Filip

        Those are three typical characteristics of psychopaths, being a psychopat doesn’t mean you go killing around whole day, there is really a very high percentage of the people like that, having no empathy is the most common characteristic and let that be the thing you need to make a career as banker or stockbroker.

  • Charles

    If Rossi has a home-size device or a small industrial device that 1. consistently works reliably, 2. meets a reasonable specification repeatedly, he should procede with Beta testing in a few select high-profile markets. Presumably his Alpha testing has been completed to his satisfaction. Beta testing would achieve the purpose of gaining public attention to his device and would, in my opinion, start the stampede.

    • Alpha testing was done long ago. Beta testing was done last year for the purpose of drawing attention from large investors.

  • daniel maris

    Rothwell’s thesis there is not very coherent. If cold fusion experiments conducted by small teams have been enough to persuade him without any doubt that cold fusion exists, then there should really be no problem in making this discovery more widely known and accepted. Even if there were an organised conspiracy against cold fusion (and there is some suggestion there is) then it could not fend off the truth forever. Someone somewhere on the planet would make it known.

    So we are left in a zone of doubt I would say. Either we are in a lull before the storm of scientific recognition or there is no convincing evidence for cold fusion and the principal players are scammers.

    I would agree that if it is the former, it will indeed become a classic case history of science gone wrong, similar to the situation that occured with respect to continental drift/plate tectonics.

    Rossi may indeed be playing a blinder, although the fact that he keeps up his pronouncements and prognostications on JNP doesn’t quite fit with the “quiet genius” theory.

  • It doesn’t surprise me that the mainstream media ignores LENR. They have had their fingers burned a number of times by similar stories. I am sure they have people to whom they turn to for expert opinions on technical subjects who give the story a thumbs-down. They, of course, have biased minds and send the majority of potential stories to a cold grave. With tight budgets and shrinking revenue what “paper” has the money to allow a reporter to go off on a tangent after some wild and convoluted story? I would hope the technical zines might cover LENR but for such “pseudo-scientists” or real scientists, LENR is the Third Rail of Scientific Research.

    I look at the people about me in line at stores and see virtually nothing in their eyes that suggests they would be curious about the hope of LENR. They are too agog over Lady Gaga to divert their attention to something that requires thinking. I try to imagine what might happen should I approach a stranger and try to broach the subject. I think I know people well enough to not try that with a total stranger. As for the ones I know they will probably think: “Ah, nerds, aren’t they cute!”

    • dragon

      So what’s happening with Rossi “BIG” announcement? He said 2 weeks ago he will have important news for us very soon. At least can we get some info on “how SOON” (like kids in the car: “are we there yet”?)?

      Also, nothing there are no more news from Brillouin, Defkalion and such? Everything looks pretty dead.

    • Zed, I would probably agree with you if there had been a few ‘funny’ stories about ‘madcap professor’ Rossi, or dead-season ‘what if’ speculative pieces on the subject tucked away on the inside pages. Or even dismissive propaganda from the BBC’s ‘science correspondent’ or equivalent elsewhere. After all, UFOs and things like the ‘strange noises’ apparently heard planet-wide get good coverage, so why not Prof Hagelstein and the others? But absolute and total MSM silence for well over a year? – that smells very rotten I think.

    • I do definitely agree with you about the likely level of interest, curiosity and comprehension that any significant news would generate among the ‘dumbed down’, but then they aren’t the people who make things happen.

      • But the “dumbed down” are the ones from whom they make their money.

  • dragon

    So what’s happening with Rossi “BIG” announcement? He said 2 weeks ago he will have important news for us very soon. At least can we get some info on “how SOON” (like kids in the car: “are we there yet”?)?

    Also, nothing there are no more news from Brillouin, Defkalion and such? Everything looks pretty dead.

    • edog

      I think it has been and gone?
      Roosi might or might not have said or have something to say?…. 🙂 as usual.

      I know I am very impatient and very dismissive of anything Roosi says. BUT I think it is a product of me having most of humanities knowledge at my fingertips and only having to wait a few seconds to get it. Yes I think I have been spoiled, but I am accustom to this life and I demand satisfaction…. 🙂 And it really pisses me off (you can edit that out if you like Frank) that Roosi and Co. dont play play by the new rules the internet has made possible.

      I want all his information and I want it now!

      Are we there yet???!!!! 🙂

      • If we believe Rossi’s claims, he has gone from some plumbing fittings to a (nearly) useable device in 18 months. That would be virtually lightspeed in the development of, say, a new type of battery. However if there is anything faster than his claimed development trajectory, it may be his mouth, and I for one wish he would just keep completely quiet until he is in a position to back his claims up.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          “I for one wish he would just keep completely quiet until he is in a position to back his claims up.”
          I agree, but he Rossi had done that, we wouldn’t be here. There would be no e-catworld. There would be not dark cloud for the skeptics and no silver lining for the optimists.

          • True. As I’ve said before, Rossi has pulled CF out of the closet to some extent, but he does tend to run too far ahead of the game. He seem to like to try to please his audience, but ends up irritating many of them when the claims get too far away from the evidence, or he is proved to have misrepresented the facts. He needs to work on getting the the balance right. (‘The truth, not necessarily the whole truth, but definitely nothing but the truth’).

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Rossi is acting like an intelligent entrepreneur, he has gained many ideas from his free flowing blog. He has made an obvious decisions to be as open as he can without revealing his intellectual property.

    • Robyn

      I can appreciate your sense of frustration. But really, it’s been only weeks sense the announcement of stable 600 degree output. And that was huge news.

    • Mark

      We do not hear any news because we
      are approaching The Moment Of Truth !

      • Kim

        I think he wants to log at least
        60-90 hours of operation before releasing
        any data on his 600 C. Unit ect…


        • QC-JYM

          I guess you meant 60-90 days!


          • Ged

            90 days is the stated test run, which makes sense.

      • Lu

        Rossi stated just about 2 weeks ago in the email interview with Frank & Hank (nice ring there) that it will be a matter of weeks and not months before he releases data.

        • GreenWin

          Back in 1951 we were promised hot fusion energy would provide near “free” power for the planet without irritating radioactivity. That was… 61 years ago?????

          By these standards – Rossi’s got 59 more years to string us along.

    • Ged

      I know how you feel, dragon, but it’s the summer–everything gets slower in the summer. We should expect periods of long silence as people just work.

      • Summer? Are you sure? Here in the UK we are getting record amounts of rain, and most of the time its so dull and overcast you’d think it was midwinter. It was the water companies declaring an official drought a few weeks back that started all this; clearly they are to blame.

      • dragon

        Well I guess i will wait after the summer for more news. By then we might be in a different world if Iran thing somehow goes boom.
        One thing for sure: this is the last summer I am waiting patiently for results on CF. After this, Rossi, Defkalion, etc might get bad vibes from me.

  • Robyn

    The MSM doesn’t cover this story – at least not much – because of 1989.

    Back then, they did cover it as big as the story was. It blazed the front pages.

    And then it was crushed.

    Rossi is 100% correct: the story is not ready.

    To paraphrase Gandhi: mass movements cannot be secret – but then again, mass movements do not need to be secret.

    This is a monumental discovery, and monumental discoveries take time. But when LENR is ready, it will have no trouble forcing its way into the main stream.

    • GreenWin

      In an interesting evolution mainstream media will be going through something like an antitrust breakup. This is necessary as in this simulation all press is centralized like Pravda back in the day or night. Funny how totalitarian mechanisms are the tools of supposed “democracy.”

      To maintain a fake democracy – you cannot have a real press. Doh! BTW, all this is unconstitutional.

  • Pete

    From a pessimistic point of view I think there is not much of a story.

    Rossi obviously has got enough capital to work in peace. I don’t expect anything from him.

    Brillouin will do what they did the last 20? years.

    And the LENR researchers will continue their anomalous heat measurements.

    I mean it is not like Fleischman and Pons have got anywhere being backed with $40 million from Toyota 1992-98. What the hell did they do with that money?

    • Yes that is a rather pessimistic POV isn’t it. You obviously wouldn’t want any actual facts get in the way of your determinedly downbeat assessment.

      • Pete

        Show me the actual facts please!!!

        • Sorry, I think it is clear from your comments that your mind is already made up, and I am not inclined to waste my time trying to persuade you otherwise. And yes, my mind is made up too.

          • Pete

            Well, that is also a way to avoid a discussion.

          • Discussion isn’t possible if either party has a fixed position. What I’m avoiding is wasting time for both of us.

    • You asked: “I mean it is not like Fleischman and Pons have got anywhere being backed with $40 million from Toyota 1992-98. What the hell did they do with that money?”

      I doubt it was as much as $40 million. This is what they did:

    • Bigwilly

      Hi Pete,

      I dont think this is a pessimistic view at all. I would regard it more as a logical view. Brillion with there latest independent validation is a little more promising than you state but other than that I believe you are spot on.


    • dsm

      Brillioun have *not* been around for 20 years or anything like it ? – are you confusing them with Blacklight Power ? (Mills).


  • georgehants

    From The Telegraph. Come on, own-up you guys.
    Rio+20: The world is getting too heavy finds new league table of fattest countries on Earth
    The human population is getting too heavy for the Earth, according to the first study to calculate the impact our growing waistlines are having on the environment.

    • Personally I’m tall, slim and athletic.

      And a liar.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        I may be short but I’m fat.

    • GreenWin

      British humor is so… slimming.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    Kim – “A Scientist’s intelligent, skill, morals can
    be rewarded by using his inherent abilities in
    an “equity system” of value transferred.”
    That’s why money was invented.

  • Some thoughts related to Rothwell:
    – I usually say biggest invention in 1000 years or so, but Jed could be right as well
    – In any case the historical importance can be properly evaluated only later, not now
    – In general media attention is proportional to signifance only for medium importance events
    – Most people instinctively turn their minds away from CF. I believe it’s some kind of protection mechanism of the brain: the mind chooses to subconsciously ignore new evidence if it would cause a too large change in the brain’s existing world model.
    – Rational analysis of the evidence pro and con is another matter.

  • GreenWin

    The standing order to NOT report on LENR began December 2011 with Navy’s anger over the Fox News inquiry to SPAWAR. In a real democracy with a real free press – this would not deter reporters. Anymore than the secret Pentagon Papers stopped the New York Times and the Washington Post from reporting on the fraud behind Vietnam (upheld by the highest Court.)

    Let’s be a little pragmatic about the blackout. It is ordered and followed because there is no free press. There is only the “distributed intelligence” reports coming from a single agency appearing under silly names like CNN, AP, Reuters, MSNBC, etc.

    Hey, big surprise. Think Pharaoh wanted millions of slaves to know Moses was coming to set them free?? TLike Pharaoh calling up his PR firm and saying “Let’s get out a big release ASAP. Moses an Egyptian Prince wants to lead the slaves out of Egypt. This will mess with my pyramid building dynasty but hey, he is one of us… ”

    No. Pharaoh told Moses to eff off. Then came the gnats, flies, frogs, hail, and first born. Would’ve kept his kingdom if ole Pharaoh had just groked energy is ubiquitous and he don’t need slaves.

    People do the darndest things.

    • dsm

      “The standing order to NOT report on LENR began December 2011 with Navy’s anger over the Fox News inquiry to SPAWAR”

      And people say the darndest things!. Do you have any links to evidence of this statement of fact ?.

      Thanks DSM

      • GreenWin

        doug, you’re an enterprising little guy – look em up yourself.

        • dsm

          I didn’t think you had anything to back it up (but that is characteristic).



      • GreenWin

        doug, try to keep up… I said “people DO the darndest things.” Reading comprehension leads to the enlightened mind.

        • dsm

          I know what you said. That was the very point I was making. ‘do’ became ‘say’.

          Inventing ‘facts’ is a very weak way to make points.


        • GreenWin

          Thank Creation some people are NOT human! But we forgive em.

  • georgehants

    June 18th, 2012 at 12:28 PM
    Dear Ing. Rossi,
    talking about the 1MW plant, You are delivering one to an European customer during next July,

    Andrea Rossi
    June 18th, 2012 at 12:42 PM
    Dear Franco:
    We will deliver in July, then we will give the information in due time. it will take some time for the set up and the authorizations. We will give information after the consolidated operation of the plant for some month.
    Warm Regards,

  • georgehants

    From New York Times
    Many people think of science as a deliberate process that is driven by the gradual accumulation of facts. Legions of smart scientists labor to piece together the evidence supporting their discoveries, hypotheses, inventions and progress itself.
    But according to Stuart Firestein, a professor of neuroscience at Columbia University, this view is fallacious. Working scientists don’t get bogged down in factual swamps, he says, because they don’t care all that much for facts. Facts are not what science is all about. It’s only when the facts fail that scientists really put on their thinking caps.

    • ‘Tis true. When you run a lab there are a lot of things that claim your attention before you can spend time ‘at the bench’ or even theorising. And there are always ‘political’ considerations that enter into exactly what you decide to look at as well. When the subject area has become politicised, as in climate change, that is overwhelmingly true, to the extent that actual facts can become an inconvenience. ‘Pure’ research has been pretty much non-existent since the days of the ‘gentlemen amateurs’.

      • georgehants

        Would not be so bad if these people sitting at desks, scratching their backsides, let the few true scientists who are actually doing research and following Evidence to carry on without inane abuse and denial.

  • Stephen

    I agree… the consequences of a viable LENR technology are simply mind boggling. I just disagree AR is working in silence. He is continuosly leaking news and promises, at times this seems his main activity.

  • s

    Cold fusion/LENR is a non-story, except for people who frequent sites like this, until there is independent verification that it produces com mercially viable quntities of energy with a usable COP. Remember there might have been an AP reporter at the 1MW plant gathering in Oct. Apparently, he might have chosen to remain silent.

    • GreenWin

      Or he coulda been incompetent… or intoxicated?

  • Bigwilly


    When I read that “the media is ignoring cold fusion/LENR” I get confused.

    I do not know what the community is expecting. What would the New York Times or other news agency report? Would they write a story using text based breakthroughs of Andrew Rossi? Some information has been reported regarding achievements like Brillioun and Cern conference but I don’t think we should expect attention to speculative free or cheap energy machines with no independent validation.

    If you ran a news organization what would you report on? And would it pay your bills and your employees salaries?


    • Shane D.


      Simple, just report both sides of the argument (skeptics and believers) exactly as presented daily here on E-catworld and other websites and let the reader be the judge.

      It is a fascinating story with a wealth of colorful characters. There is absolutely no reason why any reporter or news outlet should shy from presenting this, yet they do.

      Doing so no more identifies them with cold fusion then were they to report on Yeti or UFO sightings… which they do regularly with no impact whatsoever on their reputation.

      Yet, as many here have figured; cold fusion/LENR seems to be off limits. I can’t figure it no more than Jed. Just doesn’t make sense.

    • GreenWin

      I dunno BigWill – if you owned a couple hundred radio stations in 1939 – would you wanna report on the advent of “television?”

      You gotta be a ingnant chump to report on the technology that’ll put your a$$ outta business, right?

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      I would assign a good investigative reporter to LENR, there is so much smoke, even if he proves it is a scam, it would be a big story.

  • dsm

    Jed Rothwell certainly understands the significance of a new energy potential like LENR. He also quite rightly takes issue with Andrea Rossi over how he is handling the matter of his eCat reactor.
    What a lot of people forget or choose to ignore is that the furor and the excitement that has been whipped up (as well evidenced by the many LENR blog sites like this one) was done so by Andrea Rossi just under 2 years ago when he put in place his publicity campaign but when it came time to deliver any real products (DGT core recator) or proofs, he walked & now says he wants to work in private.

    To reiterate, Rossi started a firestorm of both enthusiasm and incredulity (depending on one’s POV). It is absolutely disingenuous of Rossi to claim he wants any privacy. He never stops feeding the frenzy but only with promises & mirages.

    If the press have not shown any great interest it is because most journalists have big enough egos not to want to be seen as the ‘idiot’ who reported fake news or false dreams. One Rossi validation will reverse that pretty quickly as then it will be a scramble not to be yhr ‘idiot’ left behind.


    • R101

      Hi Dick.

      I’ve sent the Australian Broadcasting Corporation an email begging them to investigate and report on LENR.

      In the email I mentioned the million bucks you kindly had offered so maybe if they do take a look into LENR, they might grab a soundbite from you.

      Cheers R101 (shops with Australia’s fresh food people bwahaha )

      • dsm

        Hmmm, is it snowing in Canberra ?
        (PS not my $1 mill but Dick Smith’s – I don’t have that much money (lost all mine on Moller Skycar’s & Papp engines).

        • As this is a quiet time on the LENR ‘front’, I would be interested to learn how and when you lost money on Papp engine development? Have you been involved with the Rohner brothers?

          (Admin, delete if too far off topic – I’m just interested.)

          • dsm

            Peter I admit I was being sarcastic.

            I was interested in the Skycar & Moller but I have invested in the CarterCopter & own a very small % of the company.

            The CC was a near certainty to me back in 2000. Reason being we were well aware of the success of the Fairey Rotodyne (1950s) & the CarterCopter was just a modern variant of that so to me was not as big a risk like a totally new concept (such as Moller’s skycar).
            Re Rohner, the Papp engine is fascinating & it would be incredible if someone could bring it to life (assuming that the original was what it appeared to be). Because the Rohner brothers worked with Papp one would hope they might be able to recreate it but I am not holding my breath nor would I put any money into any of their companies. Too many people have lost fortunes on them already.
            Cheers DSM

  • Pingback: How Big of a Story is Cold Fusion? | ColdFusion, Cold Fusion, Free Energy()

  • Alan DeAngelis

    The mainstream press has a gift for logic:

    Because Fleishmann and Pons were absolutely right (nuclear reactions DO take place in deuterium loaded palladium) they have to be cautious about reporting on LENR now.

    • GreenWin

      Heh heh… Alan, you’re under arrest.

    • AstralProjectee

      Fleischmann said in the 60 minutes video something like the only regret he has was having the first conference about CF where they had it. And calling it fusion rather than a nuclear effect. (or something like that) That could have attributed to the bad press.


      • Alan DeAngelis

        Yeah Astral but even so, in 1989, researcher like John Bockris where seeing tritium (a fusion product)and the attack dogs immediately pounced on him.

  • John Williams

    The reason why LENR is ignored even though there is alot of evidence that there is more energy than possible through chemical reactions is probably because it cannot be explained conventionally and very well may upend alot of conventional physics dogma. When there is an anomaly that doesn’t align with accepted views there appears to be an extremely strong tendency to ignore it within mainstream science. The strange thing about that is that rationally, if one wants to progress scientific understanding, one would think that anomalies are exactly where the most focus should be placed. My guess is that politics, vested interests shaping opinion and creating bias, egos, a strong desire for certainty, and attachment to existing worldviews is what severely undermines what one would assume to be a fundamental area of science, namely, keeping anomalies front and center so they are always considered. People generally do not like to be constantly reminded that they may be wrong about something, especially their life’s work, so it is understandable why anomalies are generally given a plausible but unlikely answer then quickly pushed into a corner. If people think that psychology disappears because a field uses the “scientific method” they are kidding themselves.

    • It’s been seven days without news, Frank, and even Peswiki is growing stale. There’s won’t be any “big” story about cold fusion/LENR unless some materializes soon. as a news editor, let me suggest a couple of good ones. One, using a retail private detective agency, get a line on the real professional and official associations of “Lt. Col. Domenico Fioravanti (sp>); that would answer a multitude of questions and raise many new fresh paths of inquiry. The second would be to do the same and find out a) if Rossi does indeed have a factory in South Florida, and where and what it’s doing; and (b) is Rossi building any more 1 mW reactors, and if so, where? I have a feeling he may have settled into the high life of South Beach.
      A thid big question concerns Defkalion: Are they fakes, or is something really being built? Sterling Allen visited them a month and a half back and saw what appeared to be but was not a functioning assembly plant; there was just one device. The promised research results have not materialized, and they haven’t written a new press release in months. Meanwhile, BlackLight Power, which did deliver some big news on May 22, has yet to follow up. When and where will see some home-based hydrino reactors that generate electricity?
      You obviously work very hard, Frank, and I visit your site as soon as I get to midnight every day, as do thousands of others. Please do some break-out journalism!

      • edog

        I second that!

        Here is a topic for you Frank, since the Roosi ecat news is so bland at the moment.
        “What questions would my investigative reporter be asking and who would my private dick be snooping after taking pics phone tapping etc?”
        Is there a flow chart or line of investigation we could put together to help out a main stream journo?

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          That would be way to easy… find a high ranking thermodynamics engineer in the military? Find a factory in South Florida. How about all the license holders ready to meet. Can’t we find one employee of Leonardo Corp? Find a military base that is operating a new and different source of energy? What happened to that AP reporter who watched the 1mW test? Trace the robotics for the new home E-Cat factory? No rumors coming out of UL certification labs? What we need here is an old time white haired investigative reporter.

          • Frank

            There is one journalist/blogger who did some investigations about Rossi and the e-cat – instead of repeating ‘Rossi says’ and instead of wild speculations as it happens in many e-cat blogs.
            He visited Rossi, made videos from the e-cat etc, but unfortunately his efforts were not honored by the ‘true believers’ because his findings were in contrary to their hopes and whishes.
            You for sure know his name – it’s Steven Krivit.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Steven Krivit is an egotist with a sixth grade science degree.

      • georgehants

        Why do we need a topic, can we not discuss things without having to be led.
        Nobody is stopping anybody putting up their thoughts or ideas themselves.

    • GreenWin

      Come on John – it’s clear as day. LENR is blacklisted by order of some military agency. Period. There is no press, free or otherwise. Just the distributed intel unit.

      • John Williams

        A military order to blacklist LENR in the media would probably do nothing but increase reporting on LENR. If the military did want to keep something like that secret the last thing they would do is order a blackout, that is sure to draw attention and get real reporters interested. The simpler explanation is that it has been marginalized because of the perceived “consensus” view about LENR phenomena which disregards “outliers”, even if there are some cautious ones that work at NASA.
        Once it is publicly shown that LENR can be commercialized then the media will jump on it but right now it is just a confusing, uncertain and unexplainable anomaly which doesn’t make for much of a story. People generally do not like stories that leave them more confused and uncertain then they were before they were exposed to it, the news is designed to do the exact opposite.

        • GreenWin

          Spoken like a rep of the distributed intel unit. Everyone in this sim is aware of the LENR blacklist and the seeds at NASA. It’s an easily decrypted pattern. Maybe Ntl Science Associates should contemplate that.

    • @ John Williams: “…if one wants to progress scientific understanding, one would think that anomalies are exactly where the most focus should be placed.”

      Quite so. That is why attention and publicity (such as it currently is) must be focused on prototype devices and working experimental apparatus rather than on the various theories currently being proposed for ‘LENR’.

      Unfortunately many of the boldest claims are currently unsupported by hard evidence, and this fact seems to have muddied the waters in the cases where outputs may be lower but evidence appears to be good, for example, Swartz & Hagelstein’s ‘Nanor’ cell, and Pirelli High School’s ‘Athanor’ apparatus. These results should be the focus of great scientific attention, yet as far as can be determined they seem to have gone down like the proverbial lead balloons in the scientific world.

      It appears that Rossi is essentially correct when he says that the only way the world’s attention will be focused is when a kilowatt or even megawatt-level commercially available product is demonstrated openly and offered for sale in quantity.

      The scientific community, including the world’s science media have let us down so comprehensively that only the marketplace is left.

  • Another good story is Peter Hegelstein’s revelation that an “important physicist” at MIT called up the company that had offered funds for his NANOR (Mitchell Swartz/Jet Energy) device and got them cut off. Why don’t you hunt down that guy? Peter does return phone calls.

    • chris robinson

      Well it should not be to difficult for you guys to deduce.I think Hagelstein actualy stated he was a very famous scientist. Hard to imagine that a fellow colleague would commit such a shameful act .
      If the research had gone ahead and Peter Hagelstein had failed to get any wothwhile results
      then you would think the perpetrator would have solid base to be hypercritical . This looks like an act driven by both fear and hatred .

      • The faculty of the MIT’s Department of Electrical Engineering and Computer Science is listed here:

        It is logical to assume that the decision to cut off Prof Hagelstein’s funding was made by someone near the top of the dept. hierarchy. There seem to be a couple of pretty good candidates on the list linked above.

        • The president of the faculty, who would have to have sanctioned the move to reject the funding even if he did not initite it, is Prof. Paul Gray.

          • NJT

            MIT has a a new president”

            “L. Rafael Reif, a distinguished electrical engineer whose seven-year tenure as MIT’s provost has helped MIT maintain its appetite for bold action as well as its firm financial footing, has been selected as the 17th president of the Institute.”

            It is surprising to me that a University such as MIT would allow a tenured staff professor to cause another staff research professor one million dollars in valuable research money to be literally thrown away and that valuable research project (LENR) consequently canceled.

            I would hope this situation will be soon corrected, by the new incoming president, so as to see that Professor Hagelstein receives his entitled grant for this valuable research and MIT’s credibility restored and its “appetite for bold actions”…

          • It is very difficult to understand the mindset that would see turning away the funding as rational and justifiable. Possibly MITs authorities may have had similar difficulties.

        • GreenWin

          Both Ron Ballinger and Ron Parker who killed CF back in 1989 by falsifying test results (according to Dr. Gene Mallove who oversaw and documented all) – are STILL on staff at the Plasma Science & Fusion Center. These are the people most afraid of LENR. Some of their funding has already been cut by the President.

          Growing public awareness that the debacle of mainstream science has squandered 60 years and $$250 billion global tax dollars and delivered ZERO useful energy.

  • georgehants

    A group of experts has urged funders of UK research to encourage scientists to publish their results in journals that offer free public access to findings.
    A report by Dame Janet Finch argues that there is a powerful “moral” case for publicly funded research to be freely available.
    Dame Janet also states that there could be considerable economic benefits if industry has free access to research.
    Currently, most results have to be paid for by subscription.

    • georgehants

      New Scientist
      Home |Opinion |Science in Society | News
      Set science free from publishers’ paywalls
      Many scientists are passionate supporters of open access and want to see the old model swept away. They have launched a protest movement dubbed the Academic Spring and organised a high-profile boycott of journals published by Elsevier. And the tide appears to be turning in their favour. This week the Finch Report, commissioned by the UK government, recommended that research papers – especially those funded by the taxpayer – should be made freely available to anyone who wants to read them.

  • georgehants

    As this page contains some fair commenter’s, can I ask the question —
    What is the difference between Cold Fusion discussion with the clear failure of science to do it’s job and many other subjects such as UFO’s.
    In both cases the Evidence is clear for an anomaly, and yet both are considered heresy by many people who should know better.
    I do not wish to discuss UFO’s, just the point of why does the establishment in both cases, lead so called perfectly rational people to follow a brainwashing Dogma of denial and abuse in the face of overwhelming Evidence.

    • Pete

      Do you mean the problem of getting verifiable, replicable evidence for both phenomenons UFO and LENR?

      Call it dogma, denial or abuse. For me it looks more like a very complex phenomenon that is not understood even by the proponents. From what I see they are still at the stage of establishing, understanding the boundary conditions of the effect. Ever wondered why there is just one functional Nanor device and not a dozen?

      I’ve been looking at LENR history recently. And while it has not gained mainstream support(I have not idea what the hell went wrong at MIT after Fleischmann and Pons announcement) there still have been put large amounts of money into it especially by the Japanese but also other countries(Italy, USA?).

    • John Williams

      UFO’s are not experimental science. They belong more in the social sciences and cannot really directly impact conventional theories in “hard” science. Outside of that I think you are correct and would ascribe it to the fact that many people and probably the majority of scientists use an immediate binary thought process to calculate odds due to the assumption that things are either true or false. The problem I see is that while the assumption of either truth or falsity is reasonable the assumption that one has enough information to make that determination, even when no or very little information has been gathered, usually is not, in controversial matters anyway. Creating a Bayesian probability methodology with positive and negative feedback built in that was used to determine the probability of all theories, conventional or not, would better emulate the spirit of the scientific process than dismissing ideas out of hand and if used properly could speed up scientific progress by mitigating arbitrary and inconsistent behavior and beliefs.

      • jacob

        careful with those UFO’s Mr.williams,they are real, they do exist,and they are fast,40000 km per hour in the earth atmosphere.

        • John Williams

          You are demonstrating my point by proposing what appears to be a false dilemma, 40000 km per hour space ships, that are presumably from another solar system or galaxy, or completely explainable by well known and understood natural phenomena which completely neglects the fact that we cannot know what we do not know. In other words the infinite possibilities that exist in between and maybe outside of the false dilemma proposed.

          • jacob

            From this planet and from this solar system ,it’s clear some one does not want us to know,why? They thing it would cause mass panic and we would all jump of a cliff? obviously our ‘parents ‘do not want us to know.It is a cover up or then it is a weather baloon,why the secrecy,it upsets the current high priest mentality,and is a clear example of what is happening also with LENR ,LENR is ridiculed ,will be fought before it will be accepted ,some one said to me once,this person owned a stake in the oil industry,he said we know there is other solutions besides oil to meet our energy needs,but he he said “STUPID TILL THE LAST DROP” and he meant oil.

    • GreenWin

      George I think Steve Greer etc. call these ETVs now.

  • georgehants

    From Rossi’s Page—Google translate.
    June 19th, 2012 at 3:01 AM
    […] Rossi at this point seems to be attributed to the diversity of technologies, stating on the blog of the Journal of Nuclear Physics: “WARNING: SOMEONE is putting the rumor that has been STOLEN OUR TECHNOLOGY and […]

    • Wow, someone has done their research. Pad that out a bit and you could sell it as a book. Even Frank and e-Cat World get an honourable mention!

      • georgehants

        Peter it’s a long read, all part of the story for many books one day, positive I hope.

  • jacob

    LENR is only scratching the surface when it comes to
    free energy devices,that did not make it to market,and LENR may well be initial domino ,that will trigger a massive free energy outbreak,for most of you this will be over your head,but it is time to wake up to a new reality.
    Free energy is everywhere around us,but all lack the knowledge to harness it freely,the spinning of the electron around a atom is a prime example and if these forces ,these forces can be freely harnessed to drive machinery and is very real,what is not real ,is the illusion the our current science taliban (teachers) is promoting ,is there is no free lunch,and they are right,because we have to pay for everything,why, they have us by the balls,and most don’t know or care .

    • That brings to mind an image of a caveman who has systematically stripped the landscape of all timber to feed his fires. He is now freezing to death while a few feet away the ground is littered with lumps of coal eroding out of a cliff.

      • jacob

        ha ha, that is not far from reality.

  • Rui Ribeiro

    Hi all,

    I’m a LENR believer. As so, I’ve tried to contact with some “media” to make them aware of it. As a response I got a message saying that they have covered it already (true) but they have decided that it is a hoax. They base their position on a book called “Voodoo Science”. Whatever is the motivation of this book, I don’t car. What I do agree is with the 7 “Warning signs” of a hoax that it describes.

    1.Discoverers make their claims directly to the popular media, rather than to fellow scientists.
    2.Discoverers claim that a conspiracy has tried to suppress the discovery.
    3.The claimed effect appears so weak that observers can hardly distinguish it from noise. No amount of further work increases the signal.
    4.Anecdotal evidence is used to back up the claim.
    5.True believers cite ancient traditions in support of the new claim.
    6.The discoverer or discoverers work in isolation from the mainstream scientific community.
    7.The discovery, if true, would require a change in the understanding of the fundamental laws of nature.

    copied from:

    I’m a believer on LENR, but I also identify all these 7 warning signs on this story.

    • Rui Ribeiro

      Hi Peter,

      So, in your opinion, a “believer” can’t continously validate and revalidate its beliefs. (please remember that although there are promising signs there isn’t any hard evidence yet, at least IMHO)

      I don’t care about the book or its author as much as you do. What I wanted to make visible in this forum is that there was some one that has studied this kind of contoversy in the past and found these “rules”. I also wanted to make visible that this is what media in general (as well as phisics) are using to maintain distance from LENR.

      Although I’m a believer, I do find this rules applicable on this situation which doesn’t mean that I accept them as the holy truth.

      This is a discussion forum to share ideas and points of view, not a place to make personal remarks about others.

      • I’m not at all clear exactly what it is you claim to ‘believe’. ‘LENR’ is a catch all phrase to describe a range of reported phenomena that include Hagestein’s ‘Nanor’, Rossi’s ‘e-cat’, Defkalion’s ‘Hyperion’ and Brillouin’s electrolytic cell.

        Are you seriously trying to assert that *all* LENR inventors and researchers are conducting their own separate ‘hoaxes’? If so, on what basis – that *some* of a set of ‘rules’ dreamed up by an agenda driven political ‘scientist’ like Parks might apply to *some* of the players?

        You claim to agree with all 7 ‘rules’. Perhaps you could cite an example of “5.True believers cite ancient traditions in support of the new claim.” that is applicable here?

        Or maybe you would prefer to show how Hagelstein’s meticulous records equate to “Anecdotal evidence is used to back up the claim.”

        I could go on, but those will do for now. If you want to play the part of the skeptic then please do so honestly, without pretending to be a supporter of LENR when plainly you are not.

        • GreenWin

          Peter, Troll alert! Get away before he kicks you in the shins and calls you an “anarchist.”

    • Frank

      Another quote from that book which fits very well to many postings here:
      I came to realize that many people choose scientific beliefs the same way they choose to be Methodists, or Democrats, or Chicago Cubs fans. They judge science by how well it agrees with the way they want the world to be.

      • georgehants

        Frank, do you mean the religious Dogma of Cold Fusion deniers.
        I agree.

        • Frank

          No, I mean unsceptical Rossi-claims believer.

      • John Williams

        Park is so completely lacking in self-awareness that he does not realize or even attempt to contemplate the idea that his insight may be more applicable to himself than it is to those that he is “criticizing.” An example of psychological projection at its finest.

        • LocalYokel35

          Falling back on the pseudo science created in the warped mind of a wannabe interpreting his own cocaine laced dreams (Freud) deserves even less applause than that of the sexual pervert documenting outcome of his own warped practices (Kinsey).
          Try understanding what Nikola Tesla suffered from separate mogul financed opposition and desertion to learn the meaning of rampant greed or study the history of real cancer cure devised by another foreign trained true scientist yet under threat of government intervention and patent the heroic character of
          Stanislaw Burzynski.
          It seems that all that have threatened the energy monopoly have either been offered a proposition they couldn’t refuse or abandoned the continental US. Conspiracy??
          Call it what you like but never espouse the audacity of denying a 100 years of documented history.

          • John Williams

            If everyone accepted the possibility that your above claims may be true it would not matter what the “moguls” did. If Tesla and Burzynski were/are correct and it was common for people to accept that possibility then those discoveries would pop up everywhere and the “moguls” would end up playing a futile game of whack-a-mole.

          • jacob

            LY35,if I understand you correctly,you have a pretty good understanding of reality,it is a time we live in right now,where money and power rules,and the system is controlled by the super rich,but they are of poor character and I carry no envy for them ,I hold no judgment against them, I create my own reality,which includes utopia,humans are created to be creative beings,we visualize a concept and then built it with our hands,thats what I do for a living,i built new concepts

    • georgehants

      The book sounds like a very poor attempt by backward classical scientists to protect their religious Dogma against all comers.
      I think many scientists are beginning to say we will follow the Evidence and not crazy reductionist debunking.

    • John Williams

      1) If someone discovered what they believed was an extremely important phenomena only to be dismissed out of hand by mainstream scientists, who had already formed an opinion on the matter, where else could they go to increase awareness of that discovery than the popular media? That is the only way anyone would hear of the discovery and it begs the question of how many people just drop taboo but plausible ideas in order to save their reputations and careers. This is an unwarranted assumption which only serves to perpetuate itself.

      2)There is no conspiracy to suppress LENR or cold fusion in the sense that the word conspiracy is normally accepted to mean, as in a group of people who know it is true but are concertedly suppressing it. A decentralized self fulfilling prophecy due to self interest biasing individual beliefs is an entirely different matter though. If the government and most of mainstream science came to the conclusion that e=mc2 could never lead to a nuclear reactor because “free lunches” are impossible then we would not have nuclear reactors today.

      3)If an effect cannot be distinguished from noise then it is meaningless. This is his 1st solid scientific point but there is evidence for anomalous energy above noise, based on conventional understanding, and numerous peer reviewed articles to substantiate that fact.

      4)Anecdotal evidence is not empirical or experimental evidence but it has a place on the continuum of evidence and therefore should be approached skeptically but with an open mind. Even Park calls it “evidence” so dismissing it out of hand would be inconsistent based on his own terminology.

      5)If conventional physics is not a “tradition” ;ie: an inherited, established, or customary pattern of thought, action, or behavior, I do not know what is. Here Parks has framed himself as a “true believer”, if there ever was one, with his own line of reasoning.

      6)Einstein developed most of his ideas in solitude and stated:

      “The monotony and solitude of a quiet life stimulates the creative mind.”

      If one of the most creative and ingenious originators of modern physics, who developed his ideas in solitude and then unleashed them onto the “scientific community”, contradicts Parks, whose agenda is aligned with the APS as a group, I think Parks view on that matter can safely be discarded as meaningless.

      7)Right, “the understanding of the fundamental laws of nature” have never changed before so we should expect they will never change again. That is sarcasm by the way. This assertion is the most ridiculous of all of Parks contentions because there is not one shred of evidence to back up this idea and to the contrary history shows the exact opposite in that “the understanding of the fundamental laws of nature” always changes. In just the last 100 years, an extremely short time-span, there has been massive changes in the understanding of the fundamental laws of nature. History also shows that Parks irrational view that it won’t is generally rooted in arrogance.

    • Brad Arnold

      This phenomenon (LENR) has been confirmed in hundreds of published scientific papers:

      “Over 2 decades with over 100 experiments worldwide indicate LENR is real, much greater than chemical…” –Dennis M. Bushnell, Chief Scientist, NASA Langley Research Center

  • Bill Hill

    All we need do is be ready to wait a little longer. Mr Rossi will deliver or he wont. He clearly wants to be the first to bring his product to market, and by controlling the price will set the standard. Also, by submitting patents without the vital catalyst he is paving the way to submitting one with the missing information and getting it approved rapidly, thus insuring royalties from any copiers. At the moment we have a black box, which if proved viable can give six times the energy out as you must put in. If it works most people will not care what’s inside the box, they will just buy one.The plaudits and the scientific explanations can come later. Note, this is not free energy, we have the price of the box and the price of the fuel to consider.

  • Don Witcher

    If the book “Voodoo Science” is to be used to judge LENR activities then it is only fair to use it to judge Magnetic Confinement Fusion (MCF) which is the basis of the ITER project. With that in mind its instructive to listen to the ITER presentation by Douglas Bartlett at .

    • Pete

      From my understanding hot fusion is more of an engineering problem. The physics are well understood, no?

      Just curious. What of the 7 warning signs from this Voodoo thingy do apply to MFC?

      • Don Witcher

        The Physics of Magnetic Confinement Fusion which is based on the fundamental idea that a super hot plasma can be totally confined and compressed within a realizable magnetic field were not at all understood at the inception of the program and still are not well understood now. If they were then the program would have produced commercial power stations or have been cancelled by now. The same sort of statements hold true for Inertial Confinement Fusion (ICF)

        Hot Fusion advocates often cite the sun as an example of working Hot Fusion to gain public support for their programs. That can be very misleading since the sun uses gravitational compression and confinement and radiates its energy into open space. Thats nothing at all like MCF and ICF processes. Both programs at one time or another in their life have been guilty of showing all seven of the warning signs described in ” Voodoo Science.

        The real engineering problems haven’t really been encountered and addressed yet. I would give as an example the fact that Carbon will not work as a container material for sustained operation. The hope is that titanium can be used as a container material. However Plasma leakage may not allow that either due to LENR and we all know the state of knowledge of that

        • Don Witcher

          BTW I meant to preface the above statements by saying that I do not think that the book “Voodoo Science” is really applicable to either mainstream LENR or mainstream Hot Fusion. Its a clever little book designed to exploit the public and has been widely and deliberately misused which is why I initially posted what I did.

    • Mannstein

      Hot Fusion scientists are just following the money. Nothing more nothing less.

  • T.H.G.

    Researchers often float stories about cold fusion to get some publicity and some money for their ongoing research. The fusion in a teacup experiments of the Eighties did it with an extremely ultra pure form of platinum that the Soviets spent billions and billions of dollar refining. They ended up with twenty or thirty pounds of the stuff and had to end up selling it for mere millions.

    That’s how the Utah researchers got some it. Other researchers used less pure platinum and couldn’t replicate the results. Several years later another research group obtained some of the Russian platinum and did replicate it. Unfortunately, the mega expensive process of producing it makes it economically ridiculous to use as an energy source. These current guys aren’t any closer than anyone else and its just a publicity scam. Don’t provide them with free publicity unless they can prove they actually have something. Sham science shouldn’t be encouraged, but razzed.

    • Andrew Macleod

      Sham science. What a broad statement. I personally feel cold fusion is less of a sham than hot fusion! Cold fusion has been making headway on a shoestring budget for years. Many of the “scientists” have spent their OWN time and money. While hot fusion scientists have been spending my money (tax dollars) on nice salaries and very little to show for it. Humph. Rossi isn’t asking for my money, and if he does he will give me a product. What is the sham?

    • Jonathan Gartner

      Cold Fusion like many theories is yet to be perfected because obviously the tech is simply not there to truly validate it. We had hot Fusion theory back in the late forties early fifties and it was not until the early eighties that the reactor at Princeton was able to validate it. I know I was there

      • GreenWin

        Unfortunately father of hot fusion Dr. Bussard’s letter stating mag confinement / tokamak programs are a “fraud” against the global taxpayer – has pretty well sunk future funding.

    • Rockyspoon

      Did you know Pons and Fleischmann spent $90,000 of their own money before going “public” with their results? So I doubt it was a scam.

      Did you know nobody called Pons & Felischmann to ask them how they did the experiment? Everybody was reporting “no results” two weeks after they had begun, whereas it took 4 weeks to get the palladium cathode loaded so the reaction could begin.

      Too bad there are so many well-meaning but bad researchers out there.

  • georgehants

    Everything in the Quantum World is unknown and Wonderful.

    Stanford University Stanford News
    Stanford Report, June 5, 2012
    Stanford physicists make new form of matter
    The laser-cooled quantum gas opens exciting new realms of unconventional superconductivity.
    Last week’s announcement by a Stanford team in Physical Review Letters that it has created the world’s first dipolar quantum fermionic gas from the metal dysprosium – “an entirely new form of quantum matter,” as Stanford applied physics Professor and lead author Benjamin Lev put it – represents a major step toward understanding the behavior of these systems of particles. And this understanding makes for a leap toward the supernatural-seeming applications that condensed-matter physics conjures.

  • morse

    Of course it is the story of the century or the millenium!? It seems too good to be true. On the other hand, 99% or more of the people don’t care about CF or don’t know about it. We can’t go one forever with ancient energy burners and conservative scientist talk about 4th generation nuclear fission reactors. There is too much money concerned in the energy field. Even Shell will start drilling in Alaska this summer. There is simply too much to loose for those who have everything to loose.

    • bearlyme

      Of course 99% or more of the public don’t care about CF because morons who write entire articles like this on CF do so without ever explaining what he’s talking about; what CF is. We’re told how history changing it is; how significant it will be; how the media handles it, and how history will collapse without it; all this without a peep as to what cold fusion is or why i should give a crap. Of course, the response to this is that if you’re too stupid to know what CF is, then too bad. We’ll just talk among ourselves and congratulate each other on how smart we are while complaining how stupid you are. And then you wonder why no one cares. it’s almost as if you prefer it that way. i guess i’ll have to go Google it to find out what he’s talking about.

      • GreenWin

        bearl, you’ll find whining on this site rarely elicits helpful response. Might try a little humility and a spot of in-it-ia-tive looking up CF background. Start with Pons and Fleischmann 1989 – and don’t believe everything wikipedia says.

      • jacob

        wikipedia is the reflection you see of a surreal reality ,not reflecting the truth,so is overunity .com,and we are supposed to believe everything wikipedia says,that’s what the want you to know,including that you are a relative from an ape,and most of the the world will believe ,what they want us to know,bearl,you will have to learn a lot of new things ,since you just stumbled into this bloc,and I suggest to read a few things ,before you comment on things you know not much about,so it seems at least to me.

    • Leon Rogers

      We already have tested designs for 4th gen nukes, and we already know how to drill and produce oil.

      I agree that CF would be an amazing development, but until someone shows that it can actually work it’s just a dream.

      As Rossi said, “I think that we have to work and to make plants which work properly. The media articles are a consequence of what happens in reality. When our plants will be working in public sites the media will report the facts.”

      When that happens 100% of the public will be elated.

      • jacob

        drilling for oil is a bad dream,including clear cutting ,and fission that are poising our generation,the media articles are like my septic system ,it is full of it,LENR has media black out status,at least on the news,because LENR can replace fossil fuel as a source for clean energy ,and could possibly create panic and cause havoc in the economy of this world,and for good reason news is controlled by a few ,the owners mainly,that also have stakes in the energy sector,don’t be fooled by illusions or the false truth,as you have been led astray by the high priests of science.4 th generation nukes should not be used on our earth family for destruction and should all be eliminated as soon as possible, the US CAN UK GERMANY has technology that is much more pervasive than nukes,and can be used to prevent wars, but once energy supply is no longer in the hands of the rich and powerful ,and in the hands of the independent little people ,this world can make some progress towards peace.

  • Could Shakespeare have been right, “Much ado about nothing?”

    • georgehants

      Hopefully he was right about —–
      “All’s Well That Ends Well”

  • People here have posted a number of messages about cold fusion that are technically inaccurate, or factually wrong.

    For example, someone quoted Robert Park claiming that in cold fusion: “The claimed effect appears so weak that observers can hardly distinguish it from noise. No amount of further work increases the signal.” It is true that some cold fusion experiments the signal to noise ratio has been low. But in others it has been high. For example, heat has been measured at 20 to 100 W with no input power, and tritium has been measured at 10E8 times background. The signal to noise ratio overall has improved a great deal since 1989.

    Park is also quoted saying that “Discoverers make their claims directly to the popular media, rather than to fellow scientists.” Cold fusion was published in the peer-reviewed literature starting in 1927. Fleischmann and Pons published in the peer-reviewed literature before calling a press conference. I have a collection of roughly 1,200 peer-reviewed cold fusion papers copied from the libraries at Los Alamos and the Georgia Institute of Technology, and 2,000 others from conference proceedings, and publications from national laboratories and corporations. The mass media has not published this technical information as far as I know. Virtually everything published about cold fusion appears only in the technical literature.

    On rare occasions magazines such as Scientific American mention the subject, but their reports are invariably distorted and mistaken. This is because the editors and writers at the Scientific American have not read any papers on cold fusion. They themselves told me this; quote: “reading scientific papers is not our job.” See:

    Robert Park also told me that he has not read any papers on cold fusion. I am sure this is true, because his book and all of his assertions about the subject are grossly ignorant, and technically incorrect in every detail.

    Before you comment on a technical subject, you should read the literature and familiarize yourself with the facts. Otherwise you will confuse the issue. You run the risk of making yourself look like an ignorant fool.

    Cold fusion is a complicated subject. If you wish to understand it, I suggest you start with a review paper such as:

    I do not recommend sources such as Wikipedia. The last I checked, the article on cold fusion there consists entirely of misunderstandings, distortions and nonsense. It is written by anonymous people who name themselves after comic book characters and the like. Most of them have no knowledge of the subject. They are parroting rumors dredged from the Internet and misinformation from Park and other ignorant people. When you wish to learn about a scientific subject, I strongly recommend you get information from textbooks and primary source material written by legitimate scientists at mainstream institutions, published in peer-reviewed sources. Not from people who name themselves after comic-book characters.

    Note also that Rossi is only one of thousands of researchers who have contributed to this field.