"The Radiations are Turned Into Heat"

Like many people, I have been examining picture of the Hot Cat leaked out of the Leonardo labs by Mr. Cures and of course notice that there is an opening through which we can see the almost white-hot interior of the reactor can be seen.

One may naturally wonder, if there is a nuclear reaction taking place, what about the harmful gamma rays that are released during the operation of the E-Cat? Wouldn’t an open reactor like this put health and life at risk. In ‘normal’ nuclear fission reactors, shielding many feet thick must be used to prevent harmful doses of radiation from leaking out.

A reader on the JONP website today asked Rossi about the radiation issue: “Doesn’t this test device leak gammas ?”

Rossi responded: “No, the radiations are turned into heat, as you will see in the report we will publish soon released by the certification nuclear engineer”

One of the things to look out for in the upcoming tests that are to be released is the levels of radiation measured. I am sure that the radiation level issue will be one of the biggest challenges that Rossi will need to overcome. It takes years and years of work to be able to install a conventional nuclear plant, mainly because of the high levels of safety precautions that have to be taken with the radioactive materials involved. If an E-Cat can do the same job as a fission plant, without any of the same concerns about radiation, then Rossi and Leonardo Corp. should be in a position to be a major supplier of heat and power throughout the world. The simplicity of the Hot Cat reactor, along with the abundance of the materials used to power it would seem to make it the obvious choice for power producers everywhere.

  • s

    Has anyone done a calculation of COP at the higher temperature based on data from the “leaked” document?

    • sapain

      hot cat. looks like a modified induction heater with a graphite body, heating a material and running gas over or through it.
      what`s rossi doing, running cooled gas through the conduction lines instead of water, good way to keep the lines cool and increase the gas temp and pressure before it`s injected on the hot body. easy way to get 1200c.

      • timycelyn

        Update on the ‘Cures’ leak, a more comprehensive reply from Rossi including more detail on validators, and a target date:

        Dear Luca Salvarani:
        All this mess around Cures is much ado for nothing. Yes, somebody has leaked information regarding the 16 July test, made by 9 Professors and 1 Army Engineer. The names of the validators and the text of the test had to remain confidential until the end of the validation process, which will be within October 15th. Somebody, overwhelmed by enthusiasm, leaked. I want not to know who he is and the issue is not important to me, what is important is that now we have the capacity to heat water with a wall over 1000 Celsius (the reactor is operating every day and confirms all his performance and safety)-
        I am sorry for Cures, who will have some troubles, but it is not my problem at this point.
        Answers:
        The COP will not change; the Hot Cat is limited to industrial applications; a full and complete report will be published by the University that will complete the validation.
        Warmest Regards,
        Andrea

        • Charles

          Rossi proposes that he will release the results of the test by October 15, 2012.

          That sets me to wondering if he should wait until November 7 to release the results so we Americans will not forget to vote while huddling around the TV awaiting the next LENR bit to appear on the news. A true LENR device, as developed by Rossi will be far bigger news than the election.

          • Nicholas Payne

            Sounds like an October surprise to end all such and there might well be a moment where stock traders all suddenly realise they have about 10 microseconds to figure out who the winners and losers will be.

          • GreenWin

            Finmeccanica SpA (FNC.MI)
            -Milan Ticker: 385640 / ISIN: IT0003856405

        • Stephen Taylor

          Thank you timycelyn, thank you Luca, thank you Andrea Rossi. October is a nice month for waiting.

          • Lu

            If I recall correctly, Rossi has always stated that the heat is generated by the the gammas emitting into a lead shield. It also seems to me that the lead shield would cover the entire reaction chamber, although perhaps a case can be made that one is not necessary for the innner portion of the chamber. There does not appear to be a lead shield in the picture nor is there a description one by the statements by Cures. The two coaxial cylinders are said to be steel. Lead also melts at 327.5C. Perhaps there is another material being used that has not been mentioned.

          • Peter_Roe

            I suppose its just possible there are three concentric tubes, the outer annulus being filled with lead that is liquid during operation. Lead doesn’t boil until 1,750°C so its physically possible, and might explain the apparent relative coolness of the outer tube. A stretch though.

          • Lu

            Another thought occurred to me after I posted. Like Defkalion, perhaps the inner material containing the nickle and hydrogen also contains lead or some other material that absorbs gammas. I’m not sure if Defkalion has a lead shield with their Hyperion. Whatever the case, lead, or something acting like lead, is necessaary for the heat according to Rossi.

            There is a lot to wonder about with Rossi. I see you are in a skeptical mood today. I think as Rossi elevates his claims it’s good to be remember that NOTHING really has been validated.

          • Peter_Roe

            Tungsten is quite dense and of course has a v. high melting point, so another possibility might be that the outer tube may be a thick-walled piece of this metal.

            You are right that I am feeling more than a little sceptical about Rossi’s flying circus, but that doesn’t really affect my conviction that he has the goods. In fact as I’ve suggested here and there, I think he is probably already well ahead of the hand-made ‘hot cat’ in the picture.

          • GreenWin

            Peter,

            I just went back and re-read the coverage of Oct. 28th 1MW Final Acceptance test. The system ran under the eye of Fioravante and as many as 6 unnamed industry observers. It ran according to all reports for 5 hours with zero input energy producing 470kW thermal.

            Off record comments from industry observers were “we didn’t believe, now… we do.” And the one named industrial observer, Ansaldo Energia, sent a very savvy representative to NI Week (very colorful comments) clearly supporting commercial LENR.

            This appears to be very good evidence the technology is maturing quickly and may in fact become near-term replacement for coal, gas, AND nuke power plants. Ansaldo Energia would be a key player if they have an industrial license from Leonardo – building and servicing commercial power plants IS their business.

          • Peter_Roe

            GreenWin –

            “5 hours with zero input energy producing 470kW thermal”

            And as I understood it at the time was shut down only because people had planes to catch or hotels to go to and get drunk at, or meet their mistresses. That demo is one of the reasons I began to become fairly sure that the COP6 thing was/is a piece of stage management.

            And that was the old system, that as I recall, kicked off at not all that much above 100C. That being so it is also v. difficult to accept that the new system still needs more heat input when it is already at 800-1000C!

            Its these inconsistencies and all the others we know about that I meant by ‘flying circus’, but I imagine that Rossi is just trying to control perceptions as best he can (mostly those of potential enemies I would guess).

            Re. Ansaldo Energia, I think Rossi has chosen well. I read Proia as a tough man who will do whatever is necessary to push things forward – exactly what is needed.

          • GreenWin

            Peter, I think you are confusing Proia the Italian Licencee with a FAR bigger entity:

            Dr. Andrea Aparo, Senior R&D Adviser to Ansaldo Energia SpA CEO Giuseppe Zampini, attended NI Week and spoke at several cold fusion panels.

            Ansaldo Energia is a $1.8 Billion product and service provider to fossil and nuclear power utilities. It is jointly owned by giant Finmeccanica SpA – Italy’s largest defense contractor and a US energy holding company. Ansaldo Energia sent Andrea De Vita, a nuclear physicist to Rossi’s 1MW demo October 28, 2011.

            In July international giant Siemens AG made an offer to purchase (some or all) Ansaldo Energia for $1.3B. The purchase is opposed by the US holding company. Recently the Italian government issued an order to block Ansaldo for sale to a non-Italian entity.

            The very presence of a major power industry Senior Advisor to a CEO at a cold fusion conference – suggests bed fellows. And yes, thoughtful men repair to the hotel bar to meet their mistress before flying off to conquer more lands.

          • Omega Z

            I know your from G.B., But I’m curious of your view.

            Your aware that the U.S. put a indefinite freeze on Nuclear Power Plant license & re-license until a permanent solution has been found for waste storage..

            Do you find it strange that there hasn’t been some type of uproar from the Nuclear Industry as I do.

          • Peter_Roe

            Omega – I’m not sure, there seem to be wheels within wheels everywhere. The freeze may be a way to force the nuclear industry to negotiate, or they may have decided to end that particular stupidity, knowing there is an alternative. Of course their (nuclear industry) PR machine would need a few days to get an agreed story together in any case, so they could all stay on the same page.

            If the govt. of another nuclear country does the same thing soon, then it might look like supertankers beginning to turn. We’re just the mushrooms, as usual.

          • Peter_Roe

            GreenWin – yes you’re right, I’m getting some of my wires crossed. As someone who loses his glasses five times a day, I really shouldn’t try to work from memory!

          • Niemand

            I also thinking about 3 coax tubes. Between 2nd and 3rd tube may be metalhydrides which supply chamber between 1st and 2nd tubes via small pepper holes. This also may be reason of lesser temperature. Inner sides of tubes may be highly polished for mirroring effect. Waves are mirroring in center of this gadget.

          • Peter_Roe

            Good suggestion about the hydrides. Not sure about mirror-polished surfaces – most metals oxidise quickly to flat gray or black at the temperatures concerned.

          • I can’t understand this fixation on lead. Any material stops radiations, lead being only first choice is some applications thanks to its compactness. Iron is only slightly less efficient, and stops for instance 99% of radiations in nuclear plants, with water, concrete and dirt taking care of the rest — with lead nowhere to be seen. So any discussion of the lead as material of any consequence is totally off the point.

          • Peter_Roe

            That’s probably correct. Lead would only really be relevant in this context as a liquid coolant.

          • dragonX

            Let’s hope that this E-CAT guessing game will stop by the end of the year. According to Rossi he says that “many publications are on their way, all signed. Many independent tests are going on.”
            So, if they are signed we should know who the third party testers are. Of course, in reverse, if nothing appears by end of year, even against Rossi’s promise, we should ask Rossi where are they and take everything he says with a grain of salt.

            See bellow, answer from Rossi:

            Riccardo T.
            August 12th, 2012 at 3:21 PM

            Dear Dr. Rossi,

            I was 24 when Fleischmann & Pons shocked the world with their discover.
            Since then I was one of the many that hoped for this new science and suffered (yes, “suffer” is the right word) for the offense of the “mainstream” science to the few ones that with poor funds coninue researching in this field.

            You represent for us (I think my feeling is rather common) the fullfill of a dream lasted more than twenty years.

            I just ask a simple question trying not to ask too much. You told that the report you will present in Zurich was prepared by six (or nine??) professors and an engineer.
            You will be able in that event to discover their names or at least the name of the university/company they are working for?

            That would be a wonderful gift for all the “dreamers” like me.

            If so I will drink “alla sua salute” the best bottle of spumante.

            My best wishes for your hard work.

            Thank you

            Riccardo
            #

            Andrea Rossi
            August 13th, 2012 at 7:21 AM

            Dear Riccardo T.
            Many publications are on their way, all signed. Many independent tests are going on.
            Warmest Regards,
            A.R.

          • GreenWin

            Stainless steel is 80% as effective as Pb. And if the bursts at startup are under 250keV – 1/2″ plus heat exchanger (water, oil) and jacketing would eliminate it.

            Remember CRTs produced active X-ray in millions of homes for 50 years with little damage.

          • Peter_Roe

            You mean apart from a shadow of their skeleton on the back of the sofa…

          • GreenWin

            Ha! Little did those braggarts with their 21 inch screens realize they were being immortalized by Fat Man-type shadows!

          • s

            Did Rossi claim to a Florida gov-t agency that the Ecat was non-nuclear? Can someone clarify this? I might be mistaken, but I thought Florida might have found the Ecat to be non-nuclear. I bring this up because: why are people continuing to treat the Ecat like a nuclear device when it is possible a gov’t agency found it not to be that?

          • vbasic

            Maybe to keep them off his back, he was being technical accurate. There are no radioactive materials used in the process and any radiation is contained within the e-cat. Some have suggested that the gamma is immediately reduced to infrared in the metal. (How this reduction happens, I’m not sure). But since Rossi can be sometimes deceptive, he avoided telling them, yes, gamma radiation is produced in the e-cats.

    • Niemand

      Yes ano No. Cures published in 3,7 kW or so, and 13,something kW Out.
      However it is impossible to calculate exact CoP, because we don’t know what periods of total selfsustain are here applied.
      Last “Rossi or Prometheon says” are about 50% of time as selfsustain without input.
      So only assumption is CoP around 6 to 7.

      • Martin

        Amazing, eats its own radiation. I do like rossi’s whole approach, keep pushing Rossi (thumbs up)

      • Robert Mockan

        Another problem is the calorimetry is industrial level not lab grade, and we have no way to know what the accuracy is without seeing charts with error bars on them. They are probably calculating thermal power output using equation P=AkT^4, where A is the outer case area of their reactor, k is the Stefan-Boltzmann constant of proportionality, and T is absolute temperature measured with their radiation pyrometer, probably summed with conduction loss to the atmosphere for better accuracy. Undoubtedly Rossi knows to calibrate his reactor using electric heating, and chart the measured temperature vs electric power input, so that when he runs the reactor with the LENR active he can determine LENR thermal power by checking the calibration chart data points.
        The difference in electric heating or gas heating, without and with LENR to maintain some specific temperature, tells him what part of the total power being generated comes from LENR. Critics with a science background will tell him he should use absolute energy measurements for better accuracy, and the skeptics will pounce on him because of the method he is using, but his method accuracy is adequate if done carefully, and if he includes error data in his calculations. He knows this. He also knows COP is a variable many realize is important. So the game is back in the Rossi court. Will he, or will he not, simply reveal the information, or do we all have to keep guessing?

        • Stephen Taylor

          Robert,
          Using P=AkT^4 I get 590 Watts from the outer surface area and 1700 Watts from the inner surface area.
          I used (estimate)length of 36 cm and diameters of 12 cm outer and 4 cm inner.
          I used Cures data where he said 800 degrees C outer and 1200 degrees C inner.
          I coverted degrees C to absolute (527 outer) and (927 inner).
          Area equals (.1356 meters squared)outer and (.0452 meters squared)inner.
          I used 5.27^-8Watts per square meter(Temp^4)
          So I have:
          Power(outer)=(.1356)(5.67^-8 Watts)(7.7^10)=590 Watts
          Power(inner)=(.0452)(5.67^-8 Watts)(6.7^11)=1700 Watts
          Total Power= 2290 Watts ?????
          Something is wrong with my calculations or my understanding or both.

          • Robert Mockan

            I see nothing wrong with your calculations.
            The dimension estimate seems reasonable.

            I can suggest different reasons for the large difference between the stated power and the calculated power.

            1. The thermal radiation from the reactor ends surface areas has not been included (but it would not be a large increase in any case).
            2. Thermal conduction losses directly to air may be quite high at these temperatures. I mentioned summing that value with the calculated power using the Stefan Power Law, but since we do not know what the value is we can only guess how much power is leaving the system that way.
            3. The power numbers we were given from Cures may be in error (possible since this was not an official reporting of data, and accuracy might be lacking in the “leak” data).

            4. Of course there is always the possibility we all question- that they do not have a clue how to measure thermal power. Let us hope that is NOT the answer.

            The reason people make calibration charts is to account for all the variables. Let us hope they are making use of calibration charts.

          • Robert Mockan

            Correction: temperature 927 K to the 4th power is 7.38^11, not 6.7^11, but that only changes the inner wall calculated power output from 1700 watts to 1891 watts.

          • Robert Mockan

            I just read the comments in the new post that the temperature conversion was in error. That it should have been 800+273=1073 K, and 1200+273=1473 K.

            Thank heavens for a lot of smart people making comments This makes my day. That means the calculated power out comes to a bit over 13,000 watts. When taking into account surface emissivity being less than 1, and the inner diameter configuration being not ideal for these kind of calculations, the corrected temperature seems to give good results. To all interested in this topic best to go to the new post by Stephen Taylor on August 12, 2012 at 5:12 pm.

      • s

        You are making a lot of assumptions. They did not say what the duty cycle was. They also did not say a lot about self sustain.

    • Alexvs

      I have reckoned more than 2 hours the necessary time to read and respond the huge amount of e-mails sent to Mr. Rossi. Please, be civil and patient. The time substracted from Mr. Rossi’s 27/4 work is essential for the marketing of so many beneficial products as E-Cat boiler, E-Cat at 600ºC, E-Cat at 1200ºC, E-Cat autoheated, E-Cat direct electricity converter and other E-Cat modalities which are being thought for relieving mankind’s suffering.

  • Andreiko

    Philips,STIRLING,Rossi?

  • georgehants

    First single-molecule measurement of Van Der Waals interactions at metal-organic interface August 12, 2012 First single-molecule measurement of Van Der Waals interactions at metal-organic interface Enlarge This is a model structure illustrating the bonding of bipyridine to the rough gold surface through direct nitrogen-gold chemical bonding and indirect van der Waals bonding. Credit: Columbia Engineering A team of researchers at Columbia Engineering, led by Applied Physics and Applied Mathematics Associate Professor Latha Venkataraman and in collaboration with Mark Hybertsen from the Center for Functional Nanomaterials at the U.S. Department of Energy’s Brookhaven National Laboratory, has succeeded in performing the first quantitative characterization of van der Waals interactions at metal/organic interfaces at the single-molecule level.
    Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2012-08-single-molecule-van-der-waals-interactions.html#jCp