Report from ICCF-17

I thought this comment from Tyler van Houwelingen deserved to be in separate post. Thanks Tyler!

Greetings from ICCF-17,

After seeing the DGT presentation, speaking with them and speaking with people who have been onsite to see the hyperion in Greece, my take is that they are farther away from having a commercial ready device than we had hoped. Based on what people are telling me here with first hand knowledge, as recently as 3 weeks ago they were still unable to obtain stable demos of their technology (problems with the spark plugs failing), thus I suspect no chance of any 3rd party results soon as we had hoped and they had promised. They stated something along these lines yesterday, saying now they will release 3rd party results only after receiving certification.

That said, DGT does appear to be pretty sound both with the science and engineering, however I believe they will need more resources and a bit of luck to get this to market in the next 6-12 months. IMHO

Brillouin is also very solid, as we knew, but still probably at least 1 year from commercial readiness as well. IMHO

That just leaves Rossi in the short term and there are lots of mixed messages about him. Some things people with first hand knowledge are telling me makes me more confident, some things less.

At this point on day 2 of the show I am lowering my optimism of commercial readiness in my presentation a bit. Maybe it will come back up before Friday when I present, we shall see.

By the way, Celanis demo is being setup now and looks AWESOME. Finally seeing LENR first hand is very cool. With 25W excess heat expected, I will see if we can boil some water for the coffee here at the conference….

tyler

In addition, Jed Rothewell has been reporting on vortex-l about the Celani device that is being set up at the meeting:

Celani has set up his demonstration cell. The people from TI reworked the instruments and the LabView code that collects data. They did a beautiful job. Celani just told me that he inputs 48 W constantly. This morning it did not work. They ran it and let it cool to clean it. They tried again about an hour ago and it began to produce ~4 W excess fairly soon. It climbs gradually up to ~20 W gradually and stays stable after that.

Very impressive. Peter Hagelstein considers this an important experiment . . .

Celani’s spoken English is hard to understand. Many details of his presentation escaped me. I will ask him for copies of the slides. He is usually happy to share them.

He concluded by saying he plans to improve the insulation and put it in self-sustaining mode, soon. That is to say, trigger the reaction with external power much less than 48 W, and then when it heats up anomalously, cut the external power and let it run in heat after death mode indefinitely. The current does stimulate wire activity, I guess with electromigration, but it is not essential once the reaction can begin.

That will put to rest any concerns about the calorimetry, needless to say. That is a good idea. Celani is no fool.

He says he thinks the wire acts mainly as a proton conductor.

Pure, clean, as-received constantan does not work. The stuff is very cheap, by the way. Available in unlimited amounts.

I think he said the longest run with this device in Italy was 2 months continuous. The biggest technical hurdle with this and the other wires he has been working on is that the wire breaks. Hydrogen embrittlement, I suppose. Constantan is not particularly immune to this but it seems to hold up at high temperatures.

  • timycelyn

    Tyler, well done, and thanks for the updates. Keep up the good work!

    Regarding your comment:

    “The biggest technical hurdle with this and the other wires he has been working on is that the wire breaks. Hydrogen embrittlement, I suppose. Constantan is not particularly immune to this but it seems to hold up at high temperatures.”

    Has he tried coiling the wire, like an early light bulb filament, before starting treatment when it becomes delicate and embrittled? The coiled form will manage to cope with the stresses and strains of thermal cylcling much better than a straight wire can, so may survive better once it is in a brittle state….

    Just a thought.

    Cheers Tim

  • Niemand

    Defkalion folks last 3 months are writing/talking: “we are capable of TRIGGERING and MONITORING a reaction”.

    When I point this as “they are not capable of MAINTAINING/SUSTAIN reaction”

    I was crushed here by some fanatics.

    They simply not want lied to level with criminal consequences, so they very carefully choose words.

    • Andre Blum

      This is the first time that the ‘new kids on the block’ Defkalion meet in a scientific setting with the old boys. Entrepreneurs with marketing objectives meet with peer reviewed scientist in an area where you triple-double-check every word you say even more than in other scientific areas because of what happened in ’89.

      I am not surprised that reports from that are a little corrective in nature. The business guys need to take some words back, and the science guys need to find a way to come up with explanations why in 23 years time they have not been able to do what Defkalion claims.

      But if this report says: Defkalion was exaggerating their progress, but are otherwise to be taken very seriously, I’m just plain happy. Nothing less than a major tick off on my list of milestones on the way to free energy.

      • mikes44

        It is pretty clear now that Defkalion is lacking critical elements of what was gleaned from the e-cat and Dr Rossi when he was in Greece.

    • Ged

      I guess it should be no surprise their plasma ignition system isn’t very reliable. It’s a unique way to trigger things, but when dealing with hydrogen it’s so harsh on materials and electronics.

  • Mark

    Tyler,
    Thanks for a cool and sobering summary
    of NI-2012.
    It shows, that LEHR is still belongs
    to the labs, and the mankind still has
    to go ‘drill,baby, drill’.
    Papp engine might be a better alternative
    to LEHR, if Roehner can go commercial.
    The summary confirms that LEHR is not
    the victim of the big oil conspiracy
    theory or lack of taxpayer’s funds.
    What can we expect from ICCF-17 ? -another
    impractical theory.
    Tyler, You are a real gentleman regarding
    Rossi.
    Warm Regards, M.Z.!

    • Celani is doing more for LENR than DGT, Rossi, and Brillouin combined. Congratulations!

      • Tony76

        ” Based on what people are telling .unable to obtain stable demos. Thus I suspect no chance of any 3rd party results soon as we had hoped and they had promise … release 3rd party results only after receiving certification. ”

        One may choose to favor the word of “people” over the word of DGT.
        There are multiple and valid reasons for delaying the publishing of results (patents, request by the independent testers).

        There are multiple possible explanations for a temporary? issue with ignition.

        They have stated that a working prototype will be unveiled hopefully before the end of the year but certainly within 6 months.

        The technique described in their paper is impressive and thus I expect they will deliver as announced.

        Other prominent LENR claimants have delivered no scientific paper and no engineering sophistication that I know of.

      • Barry

        Chuck I wish you well, but you always seem to have the most twisted paradigms.

  • K

    It looks like Celani is “helping” Rossi by formulating a scientific theory on the process. For that, he has built a very simple, transparant and working demonstration reactor. Scientists and engineers from around the world can see the proof that it produces excess heat, and “discover by themself” the theory behind cold fusion (with a good hint of course). If everybody understands how and why it works, any skepticism is pointless and even ridiculous. It is obvious that Rossi has already the most optimized concept of using the theory.
    Everyone can make a thin copper wire glow for a couple of minutes with a good battery or a transformer. But making a halogen bulb is more difficult.
    So Rossi has the Halogen bulb, and Celani demonstrates a glowing wire, for us to become confident with the principle.
    I predict that the real working and simple theory behind CF will be explained this week on the forums. Smaller experiments will be executed in schools within a couple of months.

    • Kim

      I’m waiting for the day when large amounts of anomalous
      heat can be arrange with specified material composition
      and hardware.

      We still lack a reports of common people experiencing
      these anomalous heat releases

      This will be the time of freedom and Options for the masses.

      Respect
      Kim

    • Sanjeev

      Celani has not made public the method for preparing the wire. Any constantan wire will not work.

      So not many will be able to replicate it. This is unfortunate.

      • edog

        Hi Guys.

        Just an obvious thought on the repeated failure of the Constantan wire and all the other problems that others seem to be having with reliable, self-sustaining and continuous operation of the devices.

        If transmutation is taking place.. (and from what most of us are assuming) it is after the hydrogen atom(proton) has entered into the metal atomic lattice…and the best sites seem to be at/in cracks or at “rough” areas on the surface of the metal… then fusion takes place! supposedly!!

        well.. depending on the metal/alloys ductility and other properties… wouldnt the inclusion of a larger atom in the existing lattice structure cause some form of cracking or damage?? just like an airbags going off in a car full of people… do it too many times and its gonna hurt.

        Hurdles!! Just a thought on the preparation of the Constantan… or nickle or tungsten or palladium that others are using… wouldnt you want to create as many as possible sites for the reaction to take place and easy accessibility for the hydrogen?

        So, smaller particles.. larger over all surface area.. nano powder and a supply of energy that doesnt rely on the electrical conduction of a solid piece of metal to keep working?.. that seems ideal..

        Roosi is now saying he can run his reaction on heat/natural gas alone… so if the wires break.. who cares… and he is using a powder
        Hugo Abundo and the pirelli kids used a powder and plasma to provide the initial kick-start.. and Roosi used the electricity via an external heating coil…

        P&F and others especially others were using solid metal and electricity resistance to provide the energy… which seems like the most difficult way to get a LENR reaction to occur???

        On making the powder…?? Rapid heating and cooling of an unpure/alloy nano particle to pre stress the lattice,.. even mechanical fatiguing (cold rolling) of the metal might work… or add in the catalysit to do its magic… anyone know how catalyists work yet????? creating as many potential sites.. hit them with some vibrations..ultra sound/microwaves/lasers?..or plain old heat? get those fractures opening and closing?

        What you guys/girls rekon????? I know a couple of you are having a go at figuring this phenomena out.. through pens and paper or good old lab experiments!

        Cheers Edog

        • edog

          I love waiting to be moderated!

          • Ged

            It’s so exciting!

        • Andrew Macleod

          What about microwave heating…. Microwaves exciting the atoms.

          • Peter_Roe

            That is what GEC claimed was the operating principle of their GeNiE reactor before they removed that particular bit of info from their website early last year (http://www.globalenergycorporation.net)

            Their core produces a neutron flux and is promoted for controlled ‘reactivation’ of nuclear waste.

        • NJT

          How about a nickel/copper based aerogel?

      • Jim Johnson

        Actually he gets pretty close. He describes heating the wires and then examining them with a SEM (scanning electron microscope) to pick out the “good” ones. And he provides pictures of what he means by the “good” ones (i.e., small scale surface nano-structures). Admittedly a SEM is a large hurdle for high school science. But he’s giving away a lot.

  • Andrew Macleod

    Well it is forward progress. I think I see the light at the end of the tunnel or have I been smoking too much hope’ium

  • AB

    I think Rossi is taking Celani seriously as competitor. During NIweek, Rossi compared his own results with unspecificed 14W results, which is what Celani was reporting at NIWeek. Shortly afterwards, we suddenly had new e-cat information being “leaked” by Cures.

    It almost looks like Rossi reacted more to Celani’s results than to Brillouin or Defkalion. Is there something important in Celani’s results?

    Celani uses a constantan alloy wire, which is 55% copper and 44% nickel. One of the main reasons for the choice of constantan according to Celani was the fact that it has extremely large catalytic power in respect to dissociation of hydrogen (more than pure nickel, much more than palladium).

    We know that nickel powder from a previously running e-cat was analyzed and copper was found. It had the same isotopic ratios as copper found in nature. Skeptics suggested this was evidence that the copper had been added by Rossi.

    Is copper Rossi’s secret sauce and the whole talk about exotic fusion processes just a diversion?

    • AB

      Also see the Romanowski et al paper:

      Density Functional Calculations of the Hydrogen Adsorption on Transition Metals and Their Alloys. An Application to Catalysis

      http://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/la981339q

      • My novella, POWER: A Story of Cold Fusion,” has just gotten its first review on COLDFUSIONNOW.org -The reviewer calls it “a “perfect kick back, relax, and read” story for this long cold fusion summer.

        “The story lends insight to intrigue, providing repast to the tension this summers’ suspense brings. Its’ cleverly crafted plot takes the reader thru a few twists and turns in the world of politics, cold fusion, and national security.

        Enjoy!”

        Read it at http://www.american-reporter.com
        Thank you, ColdFusionNow.org!

    • Ivan Mohorovicic

      Rossi’s secret sauce must be a mixture promoting hydrogen dissociation and maybe also the intensity or the stability of the unknown nuclear reaction itself. Pure Nickel has been found to not be the ideal material, surprisingly. This is the first major improvement since Piantelli’s older experiments.

      Celani uses Constantan alloy wire also because it’s very cheap and readily available. I guess that there might be better suited materials, but Rossi’s shouldn’t be too much different.

      I think what’s important in Celani’s results is that they show that Ni-H LENRs can be easily reproducible, controllable and cheap to prepare, and his demo will trigger MUCH interest by well founded entities or other researchers (maybe even rational cold fusion skeptics). As Hagelstein said, it’s a very important demo.

      • Ged

        That it is indeed. I agree with all you say. Also makes sense Rossi would be picking up on this if it is striking so close to home. He never seemed to regard the others as on the right track or anything but diversions, but this time he seems serious. I wonder if Rossi’s work started out with a similar device.

        Once we know what can be done, others with a lot more resources and engineers will be able to do it, and quickly.

    • Andrew Macleod

      Copper carbon mixture….

      • Ged

        I think carbon poisons the reaction. Plastics (carbon compounds), for instance, stop the reaction for sure.

        • Andrew Macleod

          Maybe they use carbon to calm the reaction… Like control rods in a nuke plant.

          • Ged

            I could see carbon being used as such, to sop up excess hydrogen/deuterium, or sequester it away from the metals. Gives an interesting idea for an emergency “kill”, safety system.

        • s

          This report, with possible reports that a demo might not have started the first time and that another demo might possibly not have run in a stable manner, as well as the rumor another poster posted that the 1MW plant might still have not been delivered to the “customer’s” site for use, has greatly shaken my confidence in hoping LENR will be on market soon. I know these are rumors and not hard facts, but we can still consider them.

          Anyone who thinks all these issues will be resolved quickly so that there will be a consumer level LENR device you can walk into a store to buy in 6 to 12 months might need to reconsider their position. People might have been working on these reactions for years if not a decade or more and there still seem to be issues to correct.

          My prediction (recorded in the predictions section)that it would be 2017 at the earliest for a consumer level LENR device to be on the market still stands for now. But this prediction is under review as I had expected to see some solid, airtight evidence for LENR marketability at this point. If there is not data which I consider solid by the 1 year anniversary of my prediction, I will push my prediction back from 2017 to 2019 or 2020 at the earliest for the first consumer LENR device.

          • GreenWin

            Thank you for delaying further contributions s!

          • s

            Downplay and ignore my comments as you please. A year from now, we will have to check if any LENR consumer products are on the market.

          • daniel maris

            OK thanks for the report. We’ll now see what happens…which is generally more accurate than futurology.

    • Niemand

      Rossi wrote one year back that his powder is80% Nickel, 10% Copper and 10% Iron.

      This may be his standard disinfo game, however.

      • Omega Z

        Niemand

        I believe that is what they have after the nickel has been used in the E-cat for a while. Nickel, Iron from transmutations.

        • Max S

          Kullander said that both Ni and Cu in the sample he analysed were in natural isotope ratio, in contrast to Rossi statements. This is not compatible with transmutation involving these elements.

    • Omega Z

      AB

      I’ve read a lot of Cures posts & have the impression that he has tried to get Rossi to release more info faster. I think he did this on his own. Possibly it’s Cures way of poking fun at the others because Rossi is way ahead.

      Cures is not 1 of Rossi’s group of (7). It’s my Opinion that Cures is still under contract by the 1st customer(Military) working with Rossi to increase the capabilities of the E-cat core technology.
      NOTE: That Rossi said when the Photo was taken, there were 9 people plus 1 engineer present. Not 7…

      If my speculation is correct, this 1st customer is providing expertise & money to fund the Hot E-cat core. It’s quite common for the U.S. Military to operate in this fashion if the Technology is in their interest. When it mostly meets their needs they will purchase license of the technology to have it manufactured by an entity of their choice. Possibly to be enhanced/engineered for special Military purposes. Realize the Navy has been given a nearly impossible task. Increase their readiness & presence & reduce costs. A Hot E-cat makes it very possible.

      I did notice Rossi’s 14 watt poke. I take this 1 of 2 ways. Rossi thinks 1. Celani is way of base or 2. Celani is close to figuring it out.

  • DGT, Rossi, Brilliant: “I am lowering my optimism of commercial readiness”

    Celani: “I will see if we can boil some water for the coffee here at the conference…”

    Tyler it’s called Engineering 101. Learn to walk before you try to run.

    • Ged

      Sometimes the things you say just come across as comical. But I think I understand what you are trying to say. These statements all make sense, and the coffee is a joke (the device is more than hot enough, running at 160 C or so as we saw from the measurements done in the video); as I don’t think the shape of the device would be amiable to trying to put a pot of water on it for heating, regrettably.

      • I bet if Celani wrote a quick and dirty paper showing how he does it he would be labeled the inventor of cold fusion. A year or two from now he can write a book about it and get a few million for it on top of $50-100K for speeches and graduation commencements. He’ll be sipping Mai Tais and Pina Colada’s with pretty young Russian girls on the beach in Rio while Rossi et al will be long forgotten has beens.

        • Charles Ponzi, your disdain for Rossi is juvenile and imbecilic. Rossi has been the catalyst of the current growing interest in the “LENR/Coldfusion/CANR/Excess Heat” energy production field. When he finally delivers the goods please take a picture of yourself eating crow for us all to enjoy.

          • I would love to eat crow. No lose situation for me. If Rossi is real, I win. If Rossi is a joker then I was right all along.

          • georgehants

            Charles, you can never win, your attitude will always be remembered.
            Even if Rossi is not genuine your attitude is still wrong.
            Peace to you.

          • georgehants

            Steven N. Karels
            August 14th, 2012 at 6:59 AM
            An Estimate of Power Generation from the Hot eCat Experiment
            Looking at the posted image of the Hot eCat, I estimate the hole size was 2 cm in diameter and therefore the outer diameter of the outside cylinder was around 7 cm. I judged the length of the unit to be 3X the diameter or about 21cm. I assumed no loss by conduction as the metal support structure barely touched the unit. So I used The Thermal Wizard to compute the heat losses by Convection and Radiation. I assumed an outside surface temperature of 620C and an internal core temperature of 1250C.
            I modeled the total heat loss as two times the radiative loss through the side windows and the total heat loss of a horizontal cylinder in natural convection and radiative losses
            Result:
            Horizontal cylinder: 471W convective and 11.97kW radiative (into room temperature).
            Radiative Windows: 96W times two = 192W
            Total heat transfer: 12.6kW

            Andrea Rossi
            August 14th, 2012 at 1:43 PM
            Dear Steven N. Karels:
            The diameter of the internal cylinder is 30 mm, the diameter of the external cylinder is 90 mm, the length of both is 330 mm.
            Warm Regards,
            A.R.

          • GreenWin

            This size e-cat and power output looks like a perfect companion for the Siemens Stirling engine in their micro-CHP unit. And of course Siemens has many small steam engines that could also match well to these specs. At even just 30% conversion to electrical energy we’d see 3.78kW electric for home appliances etc. The balance of heat maintains hot water and radiant heat in cool climes.

            Smart engineers will eventually add compact chiller cooling for those living in the hot and very hot climates. And all at a cost of around 1/2 of ONE cent per kWh! Very chill.

          • Peter_Roe

            I’ll take 4 of those please!

          • Anonymous

            The Hot Ecat Image:

            I am assuming Karel’s estimates are accurate of around 12 kW.

            1) Is this started with by Natural Gas? Or is it electricity? I only see 4 wires going into it. How do we know there is not a continuous feed of natural gas? (For electricity, I do not think that gage wire would support 10 KW at anything below 1000 volts, i.e. it would be very unusual.)

            2) Where is the nickel and where is the hydrogen located within the device? It seems to me that under the thermal stress we would see of a device that is nearly “white hot” that any hydrogen under pressure would be bound to leak out.

            Is there a paper on this somewhere. I am not sure what we are seeing in this image, but it just seems different than I would expect from a NiH reactor, yet I see no line in the image for a natural gas feed. I am stumped as to what I am seeing.

            Better opinions or pointers to something explaining what I am seeing?

            Thanks,

            Anon

          • Omega Z

            Anon

            It’s electric. The reason you see 4 wires is because it has 2 separate heating loops/resistors.

          • Peter_Roe

            The nickel is between the inner and outer tubes. Hydrogen is supposedly released from incorporated metal hydrides as the unit is heated, and does not exceed atmospheric pressure. Presumably an over-supply of hydrides provides oxygen purging and continual replacement of H2, but there is no detailed information. Exhaustion of H2 by leakage would probably be a limiting factor for duration.

          • Peter_Roe

            In the crude prototype only, of course. A properly fabricated unit would have a very long life, unless there are other limiting factors.

            One possibility is that the metal hydrides form a layer just under the outer tube, separated from an inner nickel charge by a metal gauze or sintered ceramic tube. That might explain the apparent relative coolness of the outer tube.

          • Ivan Mohorovicic

            Celani presentation from ICCF-17. Very informative document, much easier to read than the “paper” submitted a few days ago:

            https://docs.google.com/open?id=0B8mt4mJOTGvBeXJCNXNUdEJVME0

          • Mr. Charles, it looks to me that U’re worth the honor to be a pioneer in testing Rossi’s new very hot cat.
            Come on in and sit down on the black box to ride it.

          • GreenWin

            Heh heh, captain’s got a delightful wicked streak. Think Slim Pickens, “Dr. Strangelove.”

        • Ivan Mohorovicic

          I don’t know if you noticed but a quick and dirty paper has already been released:
          http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/CelaniFcunimnallo.pdf

          Of course, we are waiting for full experimental data, full presentation with charts, more details on the material preparation process, etc.

          • I meant a paper which would allow other scientists to replicate the demonstration. The first guy to come along with something like that is going to leave everyone else in the dust.

          • georgehants

            Lovely day.

          • Ged

            That’s exactly what that paper does. In theory, we could take that paper and replicate his work right now; given access to the materials and know-how to put it all together.

          • There’s always something they leave out.

          • Jim Johnson

            A helpful, constructive, positive attitude?

          • Paul Stout

            They left out the important piece of information on how to treat the wire before it is used.

          • Ivan Mohorovicic

            I found this video on 22passi blog:

            http://www.italialivetube.it/videos/1135/intervista-al-prof.-francesco-celani-dell%E2%80%99infn-di-frascati

            It’s an interview to Francesco Celani from last month (in Italian). It shows Celani’s demo reactor shown during the latest cold fusion events. I don’t understand the language much, but surely this is interesting to watch.

          • Francesco CH

            Interesting.

            In the video Celani explains the struture of the reactor and how it works. Basically, it is the same reactor shown during the latest cold fusion events.

            Celani’s research started with palladium-deuterium, then he switched to nickel-hydrogen after seeing Rossi’s E-Cat.

          • daniel maris

            I thought Celani was influenced directly by Piantelli – is that not the case?

          • Francesco CH

            In the interview Celani cites Rossi because nickel and hydrogen and does not cite Piantelli.

          • daniel maris

            That’s interesting – so the link is even closer than I thought. Tends to lend some credibility to Rossi, doesn’t it? No wonder the sceptics don’t want to give an inch of ground on Celani. 🙁 🙂

          • GreenWin

            I can’t recall a guy as terrifying to the old school as Rossi is. Their fear undoubtedly derives from guilt. They know he’s right and can prove it. Maybe Galileo.

          • Francesco CH

            What really intrigues me on Celani’s reactor is the use of nanowires instead of powder.

            In the interview, Celani says that he adopts that setup because it makes the phenomena in the reaction easy to observe for oneself.

            There are these two nanowires, and the cell is transparent. The whole system appears to be easy to inspect therefore.

          • Omega Z

            @ Francesco CH

            Yes I understand, Celani is showing a proof of concept. Not intended as a product.

            He’s just trying to show people it’s real & waiting to be developed to a point usefulness.

          • Peter_Roe

            Celani has made his apparatus large enough to show a clear AHE, but of course it should be possible to make tiny ‘cells’ with just a few mm of wire, that could be observed while working, either microscopically or with spectrometers and other instrumentation. This might provide data that could help elucidate the fundamental LENR mechanism, and/or establish the optimum surface treatment of the nickel. Such data is obviously essential to allow the principal to be scaled up for commercial use.

          • GreenWin

            How ’bout a skeptic scientist give it a try and tell us where he got stumped? (requires a humble soul) If Celani et al are interested in commercialization they will protect trade secrets. Isn’t that sorta what National Security is supposed to do??

          • I’ve seen that since several days on the web: there’s also a Celani’s video explaining his test, but in Italian.
            LENR speaks Italian…

        • GreenWin

          Er, gosh Chuck, yesterday you quoted the LA Times’ perfidious science writer Thomas H. Maugh II. Probably since he is an accomplished scientist in his own right?? Anyway, he wrote in the estimable Los Angeles Times in 1989, that some guy named Jones invented cold fusion and government’s Los Alamos National Lab confirmed it:

          “Physicist Howard O. Menlove of Los Alamos [National Laboratory] reported last Wednesday that, in two separate types of experiments, he and his colleagues had seen the same amount of neutrons observed by Jones. It was the first confirmation of cold fusion by a U.S. government laboratory.” 5/30/1989 T. Maugh II, LA Times

          Now who is lying? Jones, Maugh, Menlove or a guy named Ponzi??

          • freethinker

            Maybe he is not Ponzi at all. May his real name is Gary. Ohh…. Steven, I mean