What It Will Take

I was glad to learn of the initiative started by the attendees of the ICCF-17 conference regarding the replication of a cold fusion cell that will show once and for all to the world that we are dealing with a new reality in terms of energy production.

The lament of many of us over the last months and years is why so few people are paying attention to this phenomenon when it seems to many people who have looked into CF/LENR that there is clearly something very important going on that can be of benefit to the whole world.

My conclusion is that most people are not interested in science experiments — even if you can show something very interesting and “impossible”, the majority of people won’t pay much attention until you can show them how it can benefit them. People get excited about the latest electronic gadgets, even if they are not particularly revolutionary (compared to an earlier model) because they can buy them, use them, show them to friends and family, post them working on Youtube, etc.

My guess is that most people who hear about LENR may give it a passing look, but when they learn that at this point it’s mostly experimental and lab-based activity, they move on. I don’t find this particularly surprising. I have looked at many interesting science stories over the years and had exactly the same response — interesting, but nothing is going to happen in the real world for years” — so I move on, and in most cases after a time I forget what the story was in the first place.

So coming back to convincing the world that there is something important going on in the LENR field, I think that an obviously convincing demo is very important, and a necessary first step. There are people who will pay close attention to a convincing prototype demonstration, and that can spur interest, investment and product development. But For there to be a widespread acceptance of LENR, having products on the market is going to be essential. I think that as with any technology, early LENR products will be expensive and primitive, but with continued R&D, and economies of scale, over time that will change.

The first steps in any kind of technological revolution are always the most difficult — but the most important. Once working products are on the market I believe the momentum will start building, and will be difficult to stop.

  • martinus

    No domestic ecats in the near future. Only 1-MW plants for selected customers: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=695&cpage=3#comment-304856

    • Martin

      Oh well…hasn’t he alrady built a factory and ordered robots for mass production? And the “selected” customers of the 1MW thing will all remain secret, I guess.

      • David

        Probably you don’t remember that the 1MW plants are made by several e-cats

        • Martin

          I do. Anyhow, the domestic E-Cat is available mid 2013 according to e-Cat Autalia, official licensee. For me that is pretty much “near future”. Maybe Rossi should let his licensees know that there will be no domestic E-Cats for sale?

          • martinus

            I think right now nobody knows when or even if we will ever see domestic ecats. As long as there is no widely accepted theory behind the ecat they won’t get it certified, it’s simply too dangerous – what if somebody figures out how to build a bomb with it?
            I think publishing the theory behind the ecat is an important step forward, but I think it will take at least 10 years until we see e-cats in homes

          • Martin

            I don’t quite get it. A potentially dangerous technology is even more dangerous in an industrial environment. Domestic E-Cats need certification before they can be sold and used and industrial E-Cats can be sold right away? As far as I know industrial plants are controlled, certified, inspected for the sake of the workers’ and the environment’s health.

    • s

      Haha. I guess all the people who signed up on the “preorder” list for a home ecat might want to contact him. My prediction of 2017 at the earliest for a consumer level LENR device might have been too optimistic.

      • Jeff

        I have been scratching my head quite a bit over this “replication” question. For now I feel that it would be quite difficult, because each of the apparent leading “players” is holding key details proprietary.

        In the Godes (Billouin) paper from ICCF, for example, the word “proprietary” appears six times in regard to aspects of the technology. And if you look at Celani’s paper from April, he promises a later paper on processing details of the wire. But then July comes; at ICCF his paper says he’s had great success thanks to the help of an unnamed Italian company in preparing the wires, but provides no details and doesn’t promise any. Piantelli apparently withdraws from ICCF at the last minute, possibly to protect details he wishes to hold proprietary. Schwartz has never provided processing details for the NANORs that I can find. Rossi, Defkalion, … are not sharing details. And so it goes.

        This is perhaps only to be expected because of way the mainline scientific community shunned the entire discipline. But it’s a huge barrier to conventional scientific replication.

        Am I missing anything?

        [Corrected: fixed a typo.]

        • Jon

          I agree, everyone leaves out one specific detail… The Plasmic transition device appears to be the most open, they just sell the electronic controls, but the processes are explained and anyone could build one minus the electronics. The issue I have with them is if they had one of these forty years ago, how did they control it if the electronics weren’t up to par yet.

          The least risk is the Plasmic Transition device, the lowest cost testable device would be celani ( I don’t think the withheld information is going to be as hard to deal with as rossi omissions).

      • Omega Z

        s

        Your awfully pessimistic. But I Don’t care.

        I haven’t pre-ordered an E-cat. I already determined the 1st E-cats wont benefit me. I’m sure many who have will determine the same thing when the the details come out. Depends on 1’s circumstances.

        Doesn’t matter. Everyone will benefit even if they don’t have one. If just 1 Industrial/commercial customer has 1 & it works Then goes public, the rest will follow in time. Fossil fuels will become cheaper even for those who continue to use them for sometime..

    • daniel maris

      Depends what you mean by the “near future”. Rossi makes clear there that certification is the crucial next step for the domestic 10Kw E cat (no different from what he’s said before).

    • Omega Z

      martinus

      The home E-cat certifications will depend a lot on Industrial/commercial E-cats run time data. Going back to early 2011 info, It was considered a probability that this data would be necessary for UL certifications. Thou I think they were hoping otherwise. Like US, I think they were overly optimistic.

      Deciphering Rossi’s statements indicate a facility has been selected & prepped, but the machines/robots have not been setup. The types & configuration of the equipment have been preselected, But will be delivered & setup only after certification. My experience would indicates about 45 to 60 days setup & 30 days for software adjustment etc… About 90 days from time of delivery of equipment to readiness. According to Cures, it would take about 90 days after certification for the 1st E-cat to come off the line.

      This is only if the before mentioned facility has been selected & prepped. That’s usually the most time consuming part of plant setup. It’s the paper work & bureaucracy. This is also supposed to be a simple assembly plant. Except for the core, all parts will be farmed out.

      This is 1 reason it would be so hard to locate. People doing the prep work wouldn’t even know what the facility was for.

      Us peeping toms may have solid evidence before years end. But likely this time next year before a plant setup would start. That’s being optimistic.

      For me & others that post here, it’s usually obvious when Rossi uses the wrong translations & many times you know what he meant. Sometimes you just go WHAT???

      Most of us think Rossi should invest in a Good PR person if he’s going to dribble out info to Minimize the Confusion.

      At least then it would be easy to get clarification.

  • Jeff

    Anyway, all I was trying to say in my post that got stuck in automatic mod is that it seems none of the major players are releasing all the details of their work. And that this seems to me a major barrier to replication attempts. Hopefully this post will get through.

  • alexvs

    My conclusion is that just now, something very important is happening in research field LENR. But it is NOT Mr. Rossi’s E-Cat.

    • Frank Acland wrote: “I think that as with any technology, early LENR products will be expensive and primitive, but with continued R&D, and economies of scale, over time that will change.”

      I agree, and in my novella POWER, A Story of Cold Fusion (see review ob coldfusionnow.org) scientists working on the 1mW E-Cat reduce its size and increase its power 100 times. I think that when the 1mW device is no longer under wraps there will come a swift set of improvements from licensees as demand grows from governments and multinationals for new ways to cut their fantastic energy costs.

  • Jim Johnson

    I’m thinking this formula is this:

    Proven cookbook (Complete, detailed, reliable public-internet-published instructions for producing excess energy from Ni/H reactions, along with public-internet-published results and attestations from multiple reputable, separate parties on multiple separate tests.)
    +
    Tera-dollar energy market
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/99464146/Final-Lenr-Market-Development-Ilents12-Ppt03-By-Jim-Dunn
    +
    Venture capitalist who want to make billions
    +
    Philanthropists who want to improve the lives of billions
    +
    Energy companies who want to maintain revenue
    +
    Equipment and instrument makers who want a piece of the market
    +
    Science Department heads and individual scientists and engineers who want to get in early
    =
    Breakout of LENR development activity
    ==>
    Extensive but ultimately transient economic chaos from transformed energy markets
    +
    Long term, wide-spread, large scale, fast-paced acceleration of positive world development and improved quality of human life from more, cheaper, less politically-controlled energy.

    The action point of greatest leverage, the inflection point, the singularity, is the cookbook. Published results by individuals and organizations can contribute to, but are no substitute for the cookbook. The ICCF17 communique indicates people are starting to see this. It is clearly within reach.

    Time to bear down.

    • Jim Johnson

      Of course, put that way, creating a proven cookbook is exactly what Rossi and others are trying to do, in the form of internal “technical production manuals”. That doesn’t include open publication, which would be giving away very valuable trade secrets. However, a commercial product release would be the equivalent of “open publication”, in terms of igniting the market.

      So here’s the next question. How long will it take Rossi(who clearly looks like the leader in commercial development), to actually deliver a working commercial device? Granted, he may have been overly optimistic in his past time estimates, perhaps overselling his capabilities in order to attract investors/licensees, but that’s pretty typical entrepreneurial behavior. But realistically, there’s a long way between a glowing blob of metal in a lab warehouse to a module that can be inserted into a pre-existing (or even custom built) boiler (or other heat utilization device). Even setting questions of certification aside, that effort could take months, if not in fact a year or longer.

      So the next best thing would be a working demo. But Rossi has a 1MW e-cat (supposedly, and I’m granting that he does), which has not been opened for public demonstration. So why would he opt to put on a public showing of a primitive hot e-cat jury rigged to a Siemens boiler?

      Which is telling me that anything resembling “commercial release” as the singularity event for LENR development breakout could be another several months in the future, if not several quarters.

      So, it’s either back to the public cookbook, or moooorrrreeee waaaaiiittiiinnnggggg….

  • frank

    Has aneyone done a survey on how many jobs would be lost verses how many would be gained ? such as in the power industry , gas company , cole mining ect. how can we ease out of these jobs.

    • Kim

      Its time for every one to be
      bold. Push forward and not leave
      this the hydrocarbon world to
      your children

      Respect
      Kim

    • morse

      People can change jobs, learn new things. You don’t work for the same company your whole life anymore. It will be a slow process but a necessary one !
      LENR will give a boost to all kind of new industries creating jobs and making money. But people need to sit in the driving seat, not government or politics.

      • joe j

        Some people can change jobs and learn new things but most cant or wont. Everyone fights for the survival of what ever industry they are in no matter how detrimental it is, its what they know and what their daddy probably knew. Don’t forget jobs are just a happy side effect of business and is never a goal or purpose of business. If a business can function with 0 employes then it will have 0 employees on the payroll. Free anything will be the doom of civilization. A star trek replicator which turns energy into all forms of matter would be a boon to humankind but would doom society, suddenly people with billions of dollars will have nothing to buy.

        Be careful what you wish for.

        • Peter Poulsen

          just as a reminder. 150 years ago 95% of all men in Denmark was farmers or worked at a farm. Today that number is around 2%.
          People adapt and find new areas to work in. Furthermore technologi closes certain job areas but by that also open up new jobareas. It happens all the time.

          The only thing to worry about is if we arent able to adapt fast enough anymore. Unemplyment rise everywhere in the west, as automatisation take over more and more jobs, and we doesnt seem to be able to adapt fast enough.
          But im generally a optimist and i think we will work it out eventually.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            150 years ago 95% of all men in Denmark was farmers or worked at a farm. Today that number is around 2%.

            The funny thing is, after we fully transition to an LENR economy, people will likely have the leisure and wealth to become farmers once again….for personal consumption.

          • GreenWin

            Circle complete.

        • Jon

          Why would free anything be the downfall of civilization… At most it would lead to a reorganization where profit now being impossible falls to the side of other interests… What those interests are, I don’t know.. I hope they would be the maximization of human capital through e exploration of ones personal virtues.

        • Dr Bill Kiele

          WHo’s the guy who wrote the book “Singularity”? NOt Moog, the other synth guy….Anyway, he identified 2016 as the year when machine evolution catches biological evolution. THere have been an increase in the number of troubling ( to me) stories about the acceleration in adoption of robotics in manufacturing (along with 3D lithographic manufacture). For example, Amazon going for broke in same-day delivery in metro locations by creating warehouses that are essentially robot populated, able to work three to six times faster than humans in the same jobs. Cheaper robotic visuals able to match human form-recognition abilities, adaptive learning, autonomous swarming now demonstrated…the point? First world job dislocations, third world loss of demand of labor…the breakeven point just might be 2016.

          I’m a math geek and about to enter the age of receiving major discounts at local restaurants, so I won’t bear the brunt of this change that dwarfs the Industrial REvolution, but it is sobering indeed when thinking about the downside of all this freedom from limited energy. We’re going to need noncombustive uses of carbon pretty fast or have a VERY LARGE permanently unemployed subset of humanity. Perhaps the smart guys saw THIS when LENR, etc showed its face–what do you do with a billion or so first-world people wanting to work, needing to eat? Especially if all this transformation happens within three decades in the first world?

    • Jim Lahey

      Given the amount of jobs that will be lost due to AI and robotics in the coming years the losses due to LENR will look minor in comparison.

      As soon as I can buy a robot that can patrol the trailer park I’m out of here… just me, Randy and a box of liquor.

      • Jim Johnson

        Check. But at least we’ll have LENR to power the robots…

      • daniel maris

        I agree with you Jim. I think people don’t yet realise how many jobs will be covered by robots over the next 2 to 3 decades…virtually all manufacturing work, long distance truck driving, train driving (much is already robotised), probably a lot of hotel and restaurant work, cooking, construction (we already have experimental “3D printing” construction machines), window cleaning…

        We are going to have to completely rethink our attitude to work – we need to wind down to a three day week.

        At the same time we will see the rise of the self-sufficient household beginning with LENR energy, home grown hydroponic food, 3D home printing.

        We are already familiar with the home working concept.

        If LENR becomes a transmutational resource as well, then we might see that supplying 3D printing processes. LENR energy can probably be used to make plastics at home which can then be used for 3D printing.

        The future is going to look very different! The plus side will be the potential for us to sustain ourselves in small units for probably the first time since the stone age hunter-gatherer times.

        • vbasic

          What will it take?
          Some of the wealthy technology people to invest. One of the saddest things is seeing Bill Gates and Richard Branson putting their money into Thorium reactor technology instead of LENR. Yes, Thorium may have been better then current fission plants, but LENR would be so much better.
          What will it take to move LENR forward?
          A kick in the backside. And I hope PlasmErg does it. If it’s for real and actual engines will be for sale soon, everyone will pay attention.
          Why? Because the difference is a Plasmic Transition engine can be used directly. It could be used in cars, trucks, trains, boats and for electric generation. Unlike LENR, it won’t require intermediaries to translate the power.
          i think one of the LENR companies are going to need to step up before then and show exactly what they have before they are upended.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            Even if PlasmErg is real, John Rohner said that it could not be easily throttled and was best suited for constant speed applications. So it might be a good drop-in for a Chevy Volt, a genset, or the experimental Norfolk Southern hybred locomotive. Maybe Intelligentry has overcome this problem.

          • PersonFromPorlock

            That’s not that much of a disqualifier: I can’t think of an electrical generation plant that doesn’t feature generators turned at a constant speed, whether the turning is provided by hydro, natural gas, coal or nuclear. So right there you’ve got the entire power grid for a market.

            Also there are a few small cars around that use continuously-variable transmissions of the belt-drive sort, and if you don’t care about efficiency (and why would you?) there are all sorts of variable transmissions that would work for larger cars.

            But it remains for Intelligentry to show a working engine.

          • jacob

            any mechanic should be able to build a self running engine just based on a joe cell,preferably an aluminum block .

            Joseph Papp used a converted volvo engine,I guess just taking the camshaft out ,could do the trick,and some real high voltage static ignition to explode the mixture of water vapour to create thunder in the cylinders.

            Thunder is really watermolecules being blown up to 3000 miles an hour inside the lightning bolt and then imploding right after,to bring them back to its watermolecule state.

            Whether noble gases or water vapor ,it has the same results,guaranteed.

            The proof and truth is right in from of your eyes in a thunderstorm.

            Thunder is violent explosions at just atmospheric pressure ,compress watervapor and ignite by a minimum of 40000 volts static and you have yourself a bomb,be very careful.

          • jacob

            How many watermolecules explode depends on the strength of the arc inside of the cylinders,and how many watermolecules are within the arc.

            There are famous pictures of Nicola Tesla sitting in a room filled with lightning bolts,these are very loud and scary ,the sound comes from exploding water molecules.

          • georgehants

            Questions from Rossi’s page, he does not answer a) but what does his answer to b) mean, is he saying that the output exceeds E=mc sq.
            —-
            Guru
            August 19th, 2012 at 3:23 AM
            Dear dr. Rossi,
            last few months I carry in my mind this question:
            a) A sum of output energy from E-Cat is equivalent to sum of all transmuted materials plus all energy inputs ?
            or
            b) A sum of output energy from E-Cat is many times bigger then equivalent of all transmuted materials (in fuel) plus all energy inputs ?
            I have this heretic hypothesis, that b) is in order.
            —–
            Andrea Rossi
            August 19th, 2012 at 5:57 PM
            Dear Guru:
            b) is better.
            Warm Regards,.
            A.R.

          • Roger Bird

            We have already seen that some patho-skeptics won’t even look at the evidence. What it will take for different people will take different levels of proof. If someone will just start selling units, it won’t matter what patho-skeptics think.

          • GreenWin

            It doesn’t matter now, Roger.

          • Roger Bird

            Unless of course those patho-skeptics make decisions about funding.

          • Julian D

            Most people don’t have time to waste keeping up with the exponential growth of technology. Life is all about simplifying and eliminating most everything except the stuff that puts food on the table or develops the personality. This guy Rossi is not an admirable person. If he has truly discovered something, then he is keeping crucial information to himself that could massively aid the entire world economy. This is not the latest edition of Windows or some advanced battery technology. This is the solution to virtually every major problem that is facing the world today. Fleischmann and Pons put it all out there from the very beginning and never gave a second thought towards protecting their secrets or building a highly lucrative business. I don’t trust him for a minute.

          • Andrew Macleod

            And what happened to them…..?

          • Julian D

            They did the right thing. Their main problem was that others could not initially replicate what they had achieved. By contrast, Rossi makes it sound like it’s a very simple and easily replicable process. If that’s the case, then I’m sure his achievements will be honoured in every corner of the globe.

          • RGCheek

            Ponns and F did what was right for them, and Rossi is doing what is right for him.

            I am glad that all three did what they did for whatever reasons floated their individual boats: dont look a gift horse in the mouth.

          • flo

            correct

          • Ville Kanninen

            I don’t think Rossi has claimed things to be easy to achieve at all. He has worked several years hard before the final breakthrough.

            Rossi is an extremely talented and creative engineer and also an entrepreneur. Right now he is exactly the right one to give LENR the boost to start large scale commercial production which makes the real difference for mankinds future.

            As soon as his commercial success is spread and noticed in wider audience, goverments in USA, EU, China, Japan, Korea, etc. start to pour billions of dollars to LENR research. Future will be bright.

          • GreenWin

            Hitrol,

            “Fleischmann and Pons put it all out there from the very beginning and never gave a second thought towards protecting their secrets or building a highly lucrative business.”

            If you actually KNEW anything about the evolution of cold fusion, you’d know that the University of Utah, forced F&P to announce the discovery which belonged to the University. University Utah filed patents and defended them with the full intention of generating revenue from licensing. As do most patent holders in science including NASA for their cold fusion patents.

          • Julian D

            Did they get those patents? Remind me. If Rossi has something he can patent then good for him. However, every day he’s tinkering in his little lab while the rest of the world is struggling with high energy prices and insufficient clean water is a day that could have been used by 100,000 scientists to develop the technology at double quick time. Shame on him.

          • dragonX

            Totally agree. Sometimes it is all about moral values and in this case, they are totally lacking.

          • LCD

            Yes but in his mind he must also answer to his investors. So that may have ben an option early on, but not anymore.

          • GreenWin

            Yes, Uni Utah obtained and defended the F&P patents for nearly a decade. And Rossi is building commercial products. So is pharma testing cancer, malaria and heart drugs. They are tested on a LONG timetable to make sure they have a margin of safety. Same with any consumer invention.

            Patience children.

          • If e-cat could be compared to Windows – e.g. the “new fire” and the OS – it was really at the beginning the one big corporation power which brought the computation to the masses in an affordable way. I do have a great respect for Bill Gates for what he has done with his business and foundation. The fact is that without the financial resources he would not have had the ability to do all of the great things he has done.
            The rise of Google and Apple on the OS markets proof that the free market economies work – e.g. “one cannot monopolize the fire” …

          • Omega Z

            vbasic

            Many post that it needs to be open sourced for research. This could take years even decades.

            What will it take.

            Just 1 working Mw unit to an independent customer who goes public. Thou Capitalism has it’s short comings due to peoples perversions of it, This is where Capitalism shines.

            The money will flow & research will kick into high gear. Development & research that would take years or decades will quickly become months to a few years. Everyone playing catch up. Everyone wanting a piece of the pie. Even the theories for each process will be worked out in short order.

            You wont need Tax credits/subsidies or Government funds. The private sector will dump hugh sums into this.

        • Long story short: with LENR, why so many peoples without job?

          I say: how many hours/week for those workers at that time?

          Now, say 30-36-42
          Then, say 10-12-14 or even 7-9-11

          Work for everybody also in the future. With LENR it’s possible to create gardens where deserts are now! A tremendous chance to have a lot of new jobs.

          But Rossi could say: I’m working now 16hrs a day, otherwise no LENR… and in the future, for Rossi.like people, the same, IMO.

          One thing is sure: ask Italians if they would like to be disconnected from the grid and having an E-Cat thermal/electric generator for family’s need?
          Absolutely yes, ’cause they have the highest energy cost in EU.
          And without cheap energy availability what can be done? Very few, indeed.

          • Jon

            They have the highest energy cost because they deregulated like California did, and the prices keep going up to satisfy the insatiable need for good quarterly profits.

            I have an acre of land, and have been trying to grow my own food, but live in a dry place, and the soil sucks… By the time I get the soil right, the ecat home unit would do wonders for pulling water for the air and I could actually get my vision done.

          • daniel maris

            Yep, extraction of water vapour from the atmosphere is going to change everything on the planet. And it does really come down to price. I looked into it. With projected LENR prices, it becomes feasible – especially if you combine it with something like polytunnels where you can recycle a lot of the water.

            Personally, I think we are on the verge of a huge increase in food production that is going to surprise most people.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          The largest company on earth will be Amazon. Amazon will bypass FedEx and UPS with its own fleet of delivery robots.

    • machenation

      Hi, my uneducated guess is after rossi’s secret is discovered, it will take
      maybe 3 years before the acceptance of lenr world wide and by then maybe
      100,000 people will be employed. ten years after that we will see transportation uses take off, boats and trains. I believe rossi will be broke before then. Don’t forget a hot water unit for 10kw requires a reactor the size of a large potato.
      best wishes

      • Jim Johnson

        That seems about the right ballpark.

    • Jim Johnson

      http://www.ipaa.org/reports/econreports/index.php

      Many different reports on oil industry are here

    • this reasoning is common and……
      this will simply increase productivity (less money, thus less work for same good), thus increase average wealth, comfort, reduce wort time, like any productivity increase before.
      moreover the energy will cost work and not gold bathroom in emirates.
      it will give work everywhere, and vacation too, and payroll increase too… as before it should also reduce inequalities like in the 60s.

      the cause of unemployment in rich countries today is high energy cost, low productivity increase in rich countries, and third world temporary poverty.

      just see what happens in earlier productivity increase before.
      read that book
      http://www.thenextconvergence.com/
      and add the factor that energy is local work an no fuel cost, no pollution, no CO2, higher density.

      oil industry employees will simply move to reactor building and be better paid with more vacation, with better health insurance.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      I haven’t heard of any, but I imagine it would not reveal any more shocking numbers than the next “recession” of our economy. I can even imagine that the jobs lost due to the banks greedy behavior, which caused a lot of the current recessions in the world, could be more than those that will be lost by the introduction of LENR reactors.

      More importantly, due to the many new possibilities that nearly unlimited and cheap energy will give us, I think that the benefits will severely outweigh the drawbacks.

      Also, there will be a transition period in which LENR reactors will be build everywhere. During this buildup more and more traditional energy reactors can be shut down. During switchover time, people can switch from their old jobs to new jobs. It isn’t as if you pull a switch and instantly the world is on LENR energy, but it could be a relative fast process. It will hurt a lot of people though…

  • Stephen

    Sorry, I disagree… in the late 80s the thing got the full attention and excitement of everybody, from scientists, to the media, to the man of the road: I think it’s not hard to understand that LENRs would change everything. In my view, the problem is that a large majority of people still think or at least strongly suspect that CF/LENR is not real. This is the reason why the media have given zero coverage to the subject and this is the fundamental reason why people do not pay attention. Because it’s “known” that it’s not real, like Santa Claus… because big brains said it is not working and because after 30+ years there is no device to buy.

    I see two ways out:

    #1. Perform a bullet-proof experiment to establish the scientific reality of LENRs once for all (as suggested by ICCF-17, apparently?). This does not even need to be a useful device… it should just demonstrate the effect and convince mainstream science about its reality.

    #2. Sell a product that works.

    I like #2… but I would say it is way more difficult to achieve. Or, if you want, once you are close to #2… #1 should be a walk in the park. What surely does not help in my opinion is keeping on promising things that in the end do not happen… it is not helping the cause of LENR, I think.

    • GreenWin

      MS Media give zero coverage because they are under orders not to. Clear as a bell. Were there a “real” press corp at work a half dozen stories would have been running continuously since November last year.

      • Kim

        Correcto Mundo!

        Respect
        Kim

      • Stephen

        Mhh, not so sure… I don’t believe much in large conspiracies, they are too complex to implement and mantain: why not some genuine disbelief? Who is this power able to put a cap over the media of the whole world? It does not fit imho.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          The public has been brainwashed into disbelieving anything that’s not presented by the establishment.

          The readers and contributors here(incl me) are mostly a bunch of contrary square pegs. Skeps are regulation(but argumentative) round pegs. Lurkers consist of quiet shy square pegs and docile round pegs.

          Jed Rothwell and Krivit are combative square pegs armed with square drill-bits.

        • GreenWin

          No conspiracies, just orders.

        • Omega Z

          Stephen

          90% of the Media in the U.S. is owned & controlled by 6 Entities. Do as the Boss says or receive your walking papers. These same Entities along with others control the media in Australia, Great Briton, Europe, anywhere there’s a so called free press.

          China & such places- We know how that works. The only wild card is the Internet & if your observant, you see them trying to take control of it.

          Some people refuse to believe in conspiracies & others see them everywhere. The Truth lies somewhere in the middle. There is no leader in this, but people of mutual like minded views working together over time.

          No sane person would surrender all his rights to a Government, But pass a law here & a law there overtime & 1 day you wake up & ask how did this happen. Study whats called Government creep. It is alive & well.

          LENR will not return everyone’s freedom to them, but it will be a step back in the right direction…

          • right vision.

            moreover there is people afraid to see the reality, that if powerful frighten subordinates to see the reality… and you make a mass of rational denialist, rationally deciding no to see reality, just because seeing reality will just make them sad, or uncertain, but not richer.
            Some say the in LENR the first step, accept the uncertain possibility of it works, is too hard. Especially for scientists, who unlike engineer have much more to lose (mentally) than engineers.

            about media, they influence each others, and some are only afraid to be different and thus wrong. It is a self realizing denial (spontaneous symmetry breaking), bubble, myth, with no intent except for few lobbies that start to break the symmetry because of an agenda, sometime a small and ridiculous personal agenda (hates, jealousy).

  • LCD

    To all my normal skeptics:
    .
    Aside from this Rossi September report which I’m not holding my breath for, I think there is enough information to see a developing pattern.
    .
    Regarding DGT: If you had a potentially trillion dollar invention, just how much time would you be willing to spend proving to the world it was real before you had a chance to make money off of it for your investors?
    .
    Listen I have my sources and i can tell you that although they tell me DGT does have a LENR reactor, they also acknowledge it is not stable.
    .
    Regardless of what they say publically, it just is not ready.
    .
    The only thing I can say about Rossi is that although he may have upped the working temperature he is probably in the same boat with regard to control; however, I have zero information to back that up, that is pure speculation.
    .
    I think both Rossi and DGT want to disclose but the temptation of coming out with a product before everyone else and making lots of money is too much. DGT I think is a little more bent to do so because they essentially inherited LENR+ as opposed to Rossi who really figured out LENR+ almost on his own, so he has a lot to lose.
    .
    Both DGT and Rossi and their investors know that the moment undeniable third party proof of LENR+ (not classic LENR) is made public their competetive landscape changes. Big companies will see an opportunity to scoop them with their own resources and that’s a threat they must respect. Right now to my knowledge big companies are hesitant to devote too many resources to the taks because they are unsure just how close DGT/Rossi are to a commercial solution, and within their own ranks there are scientists/engineers who fall on both extremes of the “is it exploitable” spectrum.
    .
    Celani is the closest we’re going to get, I think for some time, to approaching public LENR+ disclosure (Duncan notwithstanding). You do have to give it up for Celani who like most other outfits could easily have succumbed to private investors and fallen off the PUBLIC info grid. And I wouldn’t blame him if he did. There is a lot of money to be made by a lot of people. But publically disclosing what you know about LENR+ also has its own longterm benefits; I think they are harder to put into monetary terms however.
    .
    In my opinion, along with many others, we should support Celani and any other person willing to make LENR information public.
    .
    However it is also my opinion that everybody that wants to should attempt/support a public Ni based LENR reactor. Whatever you can do to that end you should do it. Financially support a replication, build your own, or donate your time to a cause that helps in increasing public scientific knowledge of LENR+.
    .
    With me it has been a desire to devote my free time to public knowledge sharing of LENR+. The problem is the same I think for many of my fellow LENR+ supporters, my free time. I have precious little of it. Wish I had more. I think I would have more if LENR+ was proven undoubtedly real to the general public as it would empower me, but that time simply has not yet come .
    .
    The hope, just like with Celani, is that once a reliable, stable, and repeatable way of creating a LENR+ reactor, even if low power, is found, then real science, not Edisonian experiments, can begin to dismantle its secret wall. Once a viable theory is found and only then can we be assured of the prolification of LENR+ products that will change our world.

  • simon fairhead

    I am not a scientist, but I follow new developments in science, and it seems to me that Rossi (and others) are at the moment following a business/industrial route – trying to be the first to get a working e-cat device to market, because, perhaps, they understand the true potential of the device/process and want to make money out of it. Fair enough. I think the criticism comes from the fact they are not following the rules of scientific discovery, by writing a paper outlining their experiments and their findings. This is what other scientists want, because then they can conduct their own experiments, based on the published paper, to see if they can replicate the results. This peer review system of testing new experiments, improving on them or disproving them, is the core principal of modern science, and I think it is this lack of a definitive scientific paper on the subject that is leading some people to dismiss this potential new technology. I just hope it’s all for real…

    • jacob

      “the core principal of modern science”?

      is proof that Fleischman and Pons did not succeed,there is to much interference in modern science by those who have much to loose.

      In the case of LENR ,manufacturing and marketing COLD FUSION devices is the way to go.

      Peer review is nothing else but parent approved or taliban(teacher) approved technology police approved,and a waste of time.

      Fleischmann and Pons took that route,and it did not work out.

    • GreenWin

      simon is correct. Mainstream science is miffed at being left out of the loop on this discovery. But they WERE given an opportunity to play their game back in 1989, and blew it. 23 years later and many peer-reviewed studies and proofs and replications (the CANR database is up to 1400) later, the decision has been to go commercial. And few inventors submit papers. Steve Jobs submitted no paper for the first Macs. Bill Gates no paper on MSDOS. Ninety percent of Silicon Valley hard/software products submit no science “paper.” Just as Edison had no atomic theory to explain the electron movement in his first filaments.

      There is plenty of information available RIGHT NOW, for academics to figure out what is going on in D+Pd (F&P) effects and even now with Celani, Ni+H. Academia needs to get off its lazy as$ and start working on the problems.

      • EduardoRG

        Sadly, the problem of CF/LENR is not only based on the acceptance from the scientific community or the in presentation of a paper in a very well respected Science magazine. The main problem for me is PATENTING. As GreenWin said, imagine if Bill Gates or Steves Jobs could not lunch their products because the US Patenting Office wouldn´t grant them any patent on their new, revolutionary inventions or products just because the traditional science community does not believe their devices could work and because the could not replicate the invention, they would never accepted. So Rossi and the other are doing what Jobs and Gates did, launch the product to market and it will demonstrate by itself. For me, until the US Patenting Office doesn´t change, many things are not going to change.

        • robiD

          Actually the US Patent Office grants even too many patents for the US rich industries in the ICT field.
          So we can see ridiculous wars about patents like that one on the “first to file” for the iPad.

          So there is a patent for an object that was shown to the world in 1966 in the Star Trek TV’ series. Even the object’s name (patented) was clearly copied by the original in the series/movies (1987) “PADD”.

          http://www.zdnet.com/blog/perlow/apple-ipad-weve-reached-star-trek-nology/12305

          The results is that every foreign company that wants to produce the object has to pay an unfair “tax” to Apple that stole the idea to someone else.

          This is the last thing we want for the CF/LENR field.
          “let’s the market decide”.

        • Max S

          Look I have 20 years of experience with patents – the e-cat patent is of the weakest I have ever seen. It does not disclose anything, just general speculative statements. No experimental data, no examples to support the claims. Patent examiners will reject on the grounds of insufficient disclosure and lack of inventiveness, as it already happened on the PCT stage. Every patent attorney will tell you this. Only good old mafia style of a hefty bribe would change this (maybe that is how they got the Italian patent).
          It is not a conspiracy. It is only incompetence (or they don´t have anything). If Rossi et al would write patents in a more professional way they could actually get them granted. But no chance like this.

  • jacob

    Dropping flyers out of airplanes worlwide to increase public awareness,along with a miniture working E-cat as proof by parachute,for each drop of 10000 flyers, printed on recycled paper of course.

  • quax

    I am taking a sentiment survey of people following the LENR story, I am interested in attitude towards trustworthiness of the various protagonists as well as your opinion on other controversial science topics. The survey should take less than five minutes to complete. The results will be shared after two weeks.

    Please take the survey!

  • s

    Checking Rossi’s blog, it is possible the Ecat COP is now down to 3 to 6. Apparently, it might only be a COP of 3 in input driven mode but 6 overall with self sustain mode. If you recall, an early COP number of the ECAT was ~30 around Jan 2011. This is important because some applications will require a steady temperature and not the decaying temperature in self sustain mode.

    How much further does the Ecat COP have to potentially decrease before you start to see it’s possible it might not be commercially viable at the moment?

    • Omega Z

      s

      The COP3 to COP6 was in reference to NG drive instead of electric. It needs more work as the heat is harder to Focus then electric.

  • Barry

    Some times I think, slow and steady will win the race. You’re right Frank, it was good to hear the plans from ICCF-17 (the Celani or Galileo or Phoenix project. I’m starting to like Phoenix because it makes me think of F&P’s efforts rising from the ashes). Here’s a group of scientist who are sharing ideas and seem to be making a lot of progress in the last three years. They are not promising quick changes and a group seems much more likely to come through rather than an indivisual or a company that seems to put out a lot of promises.

    • clovis

      Hi, EVERONE.
      patients,guy they must have Due diligence.
      This is too important to mess up.
      I’v been following the new energy field for a long while,
      And of all the people i’v came in contact with it is my believe that Mr. Rossie is well capable of pushing back enough to get his machine out there,
      NO ONE ELSE IS CAPABLE OF HOLDING THE NEW FIRE.

  • LENR Car/Truck is news worthy.
    Create a large trailer/truckbed with a LENR device heating a generator that either powers an electric engine or creates hydrogen for the engine.

    Publicity stunts are used for good reason.

    Imagine driving a car from the atlantic to the pacific or across europe without stopping. Guess an onboard sleep facility and washroom would be necessary. Maybe a motorhome.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    The most likely date that we will be able to purchase a domestic E-Cat will be determined by Obama’s campaign advisors, assuming that the KingMakers have not abandoned him. My uneducated guess would be a joint news conference by Obama and Rossi sometime in October…aka “OCTOBER SURPRISE”.

    • Munga

      What about Defkalions forum?
      I thougt it would be open today…

      • Andreiko

        For stabilisation of the H + Ni response I see 2 striking possibilities or a combination of these 2.

        1) Constantly keeping the response surface.

        2) Regulation of h.

        It seems to me that with this technique 1 large reaction vessel is possible, resulting in a significant reduction of material use. Both 1 and 2 are feasible.

        Like a response from experts.

      • Veblin

        It is open.

        • Veblin

          I should have said that they seem to be working on opening it.

          • you nee to re-register with personal data.
            moderation seems to be the new rule.