Rossi: Certification of Industrial E-Cats Complete

Andrea Rossi has mentioned lately that certification process of the industrial strength E-Cat plants has been underway — now he says the process has been completed. Here’s the Q & A on the Journal of Nuclear Physics

The last several months you have been very upbeat about two issues in your comments on this website.
1. That it soon will be enough confirmed and verified information about LENR for ordinary main stream media and journalist to write for their readers in laymen terms.
2. That you very soon will have a valid certification for your industry eCat.
Do you still have the same positive view on above issues?? ..

Thank you for your important questions.
Here are the answers:
1- Yes
2- The safety certification process for the industrial plants has been made. Besides this, within October will be finished and published the indipendent validation test made by a University.

Having safety certification for these industrial plants would obviously be a great step forward for Leonardo Corporation, as it would mean the plants can be marketed now to the wide range of businesses that could benefit from using E-Cat technology. Without certification, Rossi has been limited to working with military institutions, who are not subject to the same rules that industries must abide by. It will be interesting to find out, if possible, upon what conditions these certifications are granted, and how they are obtained.

In his other answers, Rossi refers again to the upcoming test that he has said previoulsy will be published by the University of Bologna, and in question 1, seems to be referring to an installed working E-Cat plant that he has said will at some point be open to visitors.

We have been waiting for a long time for more information to be made public about the E-Cat — maybe the time is coming when it will be getting a larger public profile.

  • Italo R.

    Maybe the University will be Unibo (Bologna), but it could be another one(Uppsala?). Rossi hasn’t told which one is involved.

    • Jon

      If it is certified in the USA, he probably would want to use a local university… University of Missouri , MIT, ect…

      • StevenG

        Imagine if MIT Certified the commercial eCat, the media would immediately declare Rossi the New Thomas Edison AND Rossi would move to the top of the list for the Nobel prize.

        • daniel maris

          Still only Rossi says – but great news nonetheless. This is a real credibility test. I will be the first to nominate him for the Nobel prize if he pulls this off!

          • Charles

            If he pulls it off, nominate him for 3 Nobels: The Peace, Physics, and Economics Prizes. Maybe you can add Chemistry but for heaven’s sake don’t throw in Literature.

          • GreenWin

            At least not English lit.

          • Fibber McGourlick

            “…don’t throw in Literature.”

            Clever remark.

          • Ivan_cev

            What about the Nobel price in Science Fiction?

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            And I quote: “If he pulls it off”

            This is another variant of “It may not be true”. And that is why Charles mentioned “If …”

            May I suggest again that we *all* really do know that until proof is given nothing is 100% sure. We really really really do know that. You’re opinion is noted, but you do not seem to have any other insight. Can you please open your mind a little and play the “If true” game like most of us do around here. I myself get very tired of unimaginative minds such as yours that can only repeat one thing. You may still be right after all has been said and done, but you will have ruined many otherwise healthy discussions.

            Also, SCIENCE fiction is ground in SCIENCE, where the science displayed in the fiction has to be at least theoretically possible, otherwise it’s just fiction. So are you saying that such a prize must be given to the man who had the scientific vision (fiction) and drive to make such a device possible and that he is the one fully deserving that price?

          • GreenWin

            How much we talkin Ivan??

          • jacob

            Ivan, there is more reality in science fiction .
            the illusion is our current reality.

            a bit backwards.

          • Daniel M. Basso

            I wouldn’t include the peace category yet, gotta wait and see. Never underestimate the power of human stupidity.

          • Andrew Macleod

            Although it has the potential to create peace it also has the potential to create war. If oil rich nations see a drop in income this can cause instablilty as many of their city’s rely on this income.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            I think it will reduce war.
            It defunds the “Religion of Peace”.

          • If they can give one to Obama, who subsequently presided over an ever-expanding program of war, I think Rossi would be a rather more worthy recipient. But you’re right, it is often very hard to overestimate human stupidity.

          • Jim Johnson


          • Jim Johnson

            oops part 2


            maybe something for jfab to consider

          • Jim Johnson

            oops again

            Batteries make up 20 percent of the weight a Soldier carries in theater. An infantry battalion spends more than $150,000 on batteries per year, which is second in cost to munitions.


          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            True, we are capable of mindbogglingly stupid ideas. We’re not save yet…

          • Makarov

            Ross has very clearly stated that he has received NO certification:

            “The safety certification process for the industrial plants has been made.”

            He has made an application or request for certification, not received certification.

          • Lu

            Well you are right that with Rossi you have to parse his words very carefully. In this case “has been made” indicates to me completed and approved. You could be right but I doubt it.

          • Makarov

            Then perhaps Mr. Rossi can clarify this point for us. Making or completing the certification process is not the same as receiving a certification. Years can elapse between the two events.

          • Jim Johnson

            “Years can elapse between the two events”

            Any evidence of that? Such a time span would make it pretty hard on product development in the EU. Particularly for a service that the manufacturer pays for. I would raise that to “unbelievably hard”, as in, “not a real time frame.”

          • Fibber McGourlick

            “has been made” means “completed”, in any ordinary sense of the phrase. Completed = Done = finished. It’s not made, completed,done, or finished unless the certification is completey over. IMO.

          • Makarov

            Yes. Certification for power plant design (coal, nuclear, etc.) can take years. Certification to begin construction can take years. Certificate to operate can take years. In the US or EU. Bureaucrats are not worried about timely “product development.”

            For one example, see:

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            I agree that it could mean that he has just started the application for certification.

            But I also seem to remember that he stated some time ago that certification for the industrial plant was underway and that for that plant the certification would be less stringent than for the home ecat.

            My interpretation would be that the device is certified. Also, his 1MW device has been around longer than the home ecat, so it would stand to reason that the 1MW device is certified the first.

          • Omega Z

            No- The Home E-cat started certification first & is still in process. It depends now, on data collected from the Industrial Cats for completion. A safety track record.

            Industrial is easier to obtain because it is assumed trained personnel will be present at all times. 1st certification is hardest for industrial with each additional certification being quicker & easier. Yes, each unit has to be certified before going into full operation. Just as Standard Boiler Systems do.

            My understanding is the 1st Industrial E-cat has completed certification.

          • clovis

            That’s my understanding as well

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Agree, I think the hour of Truth is coming fast for Rossi and his LENR device. Should the man prove his claims, a Nobel prize would be the least of his achievements. Saving the world is could be his.

            For the sceptics: Should it not be true, then at least we have prove of LENR (Celani). Rossi then played a big part in that by bringing it in the open with his claims. Either way he will have been important in the field.

        • Jacob

          I don’t believe till I see and touch it.

          • I can’t see or touch you. I don’t believe you exist!

          • Jim Johnson


          • Fibber McGourlick

            Hello Thomas. Put your hand in my side.

      • Francesco CH

        The one made at the university is not a certification, it is a university test and its main purpose is to validate that the E-Cat do indeed produces excess heat. Which is the simplest thing to prove: other things, like that the produced energy has nuclear origin or that nuclear transmutations happen during the process, are more difficult to investigate.

        • GreenWin

          This sounds correct Francesco. You have a good track record for information. Excess heat validation is a major step. It will do nothing to help publicize the technology as the “press” remains gagged by overseers.

          A safety certification along with the validation will be strong support for sales of industrial units. One excellent pilot project would be a 1MW desalination demonstration. Using 700kW thermal for desal and 300kW for electric generation and NG (methane) heat to ignite the reaction.

          • Adam Lepczak

            I agree with GreenWin…
            The mainstream media will remain silent…
            But the question is, once the LENR wiill take place, to what extent we should start finding out who the overlords were/are and to what extent we should insist on prosecuting them…
            The LENR gestapo would be nice actually.

          • GreenWin

            Adam, I suspect that when people grok they have been duped, there will be anger. The kingpins and leaders (read Gene Mallove for names) will need to be censured and stripped of any position in academia or industry. Editors of journals who refused to publish CF papers (including the infamous “Report 41”) will need to answer for their actions.

            General house cleaning in science, government and academia will be necessary. And then a new era will begin, where high priests, cliques and fiefdoms are discouraged, and open investigations of any evidenced phenomenon is encouraged. The world will be far more fun and rewarding thereafter.

          • GreenWin

            I’ll further point out to those writers and editors that print BS about LENR at THIS time – when there is abundant evidence in public domain (e.g. NI Week and ICCF17) of GREAT PROGRESS in cold fusion – will be made to answer for their actions.

            There is no excuse for printing lies and denials of the extraordinary work the LENR community has done these past 23 years. Those who do print this material will find themselves on the losing side – and suffer the fate of the conquered.

          • Jim Johnson

            admin please delete – misassumption about certification being for hot ecat

          • Omega Z

            Certifications??? Which one, Which one, Can’t keep it straight…
            Home/Industrial/Hot Cat

            I would suspect the first completed Certification would be the Military customer.

            That would be the 200`C 1Mw Industrial E-cat. Quite possibly followed by the private customer 1Mw E-cat of the same type.

            The 1st NON-Military certification would be the toughest as this is an entirely new product. An entirely New Certification Criteria would have to be created tho partly based on the 1st Military unit certification.

            IMO, These have both been completed.
            Each additional 1Mw Plant will require it’s own certification just as any other boiler system would. But these would be much quicker & easier to certify & done on site, Because a criteria has been set with the 1st. Or possibly certified when built & Re-Certified on site after delivery/setup.

            The 1st 10Kw Home E-cat was the 1st to start the certification process, but will be held up until the Industrial versions set a track record for safety. This delay was considered a strong possibility back in early 2011. This is nothing new, just something Rossi was hoping to avoid. Probably Overly Optimistic on his part.

            The New Hot cat is (Probably) not certified. It’s actually still in development to my knowledge. Any forth coming certification of it would merely be that they certify/validate that it performs to what ever data they release.

            This is only My Opinion based on my Understanding of Rossi Speak. It’s based on multiple Statements over a long period of time & noting slight differences in how he states it. IN ROSSI SPEAK– There’s a fine line in certifications being/ started/ in process/ & done. This actually goes for most Rossi statements.

            I’m reasonably Confident of the Above, But Hey- It’s Rossi Speak.

          • Omega Z

            Just to add, The 600`C & 1000`C plus are One & the Same. The Hot Cat.

          • Jim Johnson

            Do we have an estimated date on the photo of the hot cat (glowing tube, two wires?) I’m trying to imagine the steps, and thus the time, of getting from there to a reliable device that could be 1) hand assembled 2) “robot” assembled.

          • zero

            The date the photo was taken was July 17th. Rossi refers to the test as the 16th of July, I’m assuming that the test lasted longer than 24 hours.

            Interesting project to generate electricity from heat.

          • GreenWin

            The thermoacoustic engine based on Stirling’s work does stand a chance. Robert Mockan sees the potential in matching a more advanced unit built for NASA by LANL with one of Rossi’s e-cats to produce ~2.5kW electric. The problem I see is these designs still require the sound wave to move a free piston (or like) alternator for the electric gen. The efficiency (~25%) is still far above thermocouples and solid state convertors. And the piston is not part of the thermal cycle – raising MTBF rates.

            Siemens AG has already designed a micro-CHP system utilizing a Stirling engine genset for about 1kW electrical. The remainder heat produces hot water and some radiant heat for homes.

          • douglas white

            an alternator is not necessary to produce electron flow-
            this industry will also use other solid-state type devices that will eliminate moving parts; fuel cells, thermovoltaic, and
            more- stay tuned…..

          • Adam Lepczak

            Actually, I am somewhat for a harsh punishment and maybe a “reeducation” to those found to put a lid on the technology. Maybe few months in “black Dolphin” would serve as a warning for the future…

          • jacob

            adam ,gestapo is not the answer,it means secret state police,an independant circle of judges is needed with investigators and headhunters.

        • jfab

          Rossi will not release the certification documents but he’s not explaining why. Anybody got info on that? Thanks

          • Can you suggest any reason why Rossi should ‘release’ private business documents to the general public, or needs to explain why he has not done so?

            Maybe you could try asking a company like EDF to provide you with the safety documentation for their new-generation reactors, and then demand to know why they won’t, when nothing is forthcoming.

          • GreenWin

            Peter, as the inevitable transition to LENR sinks-in further, the PTB are issuing attack dog orders. These produce increasingly desperate attempts to discredit Rossi and any tangent of LENR. They are, of course pointless.

            I would ask these desperate skeptopaths to face this fact: THE FORCE IS NOT WITH YOU!

          • Alan DeAngelis

            Rossi is so charismatic that I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a fifth column within the PTB that wants to see Rossi succeed.

          • jfab

            Rossi, charismatic? You gotta be kindy me! Insulting people and looking mad doesn’t make him charismatic. He’s rather silly and weak.

          • Alan DeAngelis

            What’s the name of this website?

          • I think there must inevitably be a split among the corporate psychopaths between those who see how they can benefit greatly, and those who only see losses in their particular sector.

          • Wrong place – meant to be a reply to Alan’s ‘5th column’ comment.

          • Greenwin – as you say there is definitely an air of whining desperation creeping in as the usual reality-denying nonsense becomes ever more ineffectual. Apart from silly innuendo and sniping, the main line of attack at the moment (in lieu of any real arguments) seems to be an attempt to paint CF as an interesting lab oddity that might lead to something once it is in the hands of the ‘right’ people (establishment scientists, of course). My fear is that when TPTB realise that this game is up, they may resort to even more desperate and risky measures.

          • Alan DeAngelis

            I’m afraid you’re right Peter.

          • GreenWin

            You both make excellent points. While PTB have rested on unearned laurels alternative science has usurped them. We can expect to see a desperate move to wrest control of LENR away from heretical scientists. It too will be pointless as PTB are a flea-like irritant to higher PTB. With or without a proper business card :))

            David slew Goliath with a single, flat stone. He might even have moistened it with water. A certain crystal lattice imbued with H2 is all that’s needed for a LENR. Somewhere, there is poetry in this.

          • Omega Z


            These things are done on a timeline. Preparations have to be made to avoid or minimize disruptions of day to day business/Lives.

            Rossi may already have the Reports in hand(I’m sure he does.) but they will be released by others, Otherwise many will Claim another Rossi says.

            If/When Unibo releases the Data in October, it will be 3rd party. You can bet they will face an onslaught of interest. Websites will be bogged down. E-mails will be overfilled. Preparations will have to be made to handle this.

            People involved have to plan/make arrangements to be present & coordinated with others. It’s not as simple as some may think. These people do have Lives & Jobs besides the interest in the E-cat. Presentations cost much time, money, & organizing.

            Release of this information depends much more on others then Rossi. It takes joint Co-operation from all Involved. At least if you want a presentation with any Validity.

      • Kimball

        I vote U of U. GO UTES!

        • Can’t the just be hung, drawn and quarterd ?

    • Sanjeev

      Great news indeed. Congrats to Rossi !

      I’d like to know the details also. Which certification exactly and by whom ? Can we go to their website and have a look ?

      If we can grab a copy of the certificate, it will increase the weight of the claim of 1MW CF plants by 100x. Waiting ….

      • jfab

        I asked Rossi a scan of the certification documents but he refused to provide them and removed my message on his blog.
        How surprising 😉

        • Sanjeev

          I see no reason to keep it a secret. It can boost his image a lot. Many cos proudly display their ISO certificates and others make them available on demand.

          May be if someone contacts him with a real name and as an interested customer, he will provide a copy.

          Perhaps Frank can also try asking him.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Wrong reply. Admin can remove this.

    • captain

      Hi Italo R., U could be right, but I’ve premised IMHO.
      For sure, Rossi likes the more certifications he can have, and he talked more than once that Bologna and Uppsala were the universities in EU.

      And in the states, he mentioned to have sold one of his 1MW industrial plants to a customer (unknown) in the NE of the country 😉 [MIT?]

    • Omega Z

      Italo R

      In 1 of his posts concerning the Cures info, he did say Unibo. That may have been a slip, because he always says University every since.

      I also expect a 2nd University to come forward around the same time.

  • captain

    IMHO UniBO Italy first, Uppsala Sweden second and MIT (maybe) third.

    At that point, web LENR internauts will be aware that Cures anticipated revelation of Rossi’s Hot Black Box has had positive effects in convincing common people that a tiny E-Tiger can make miracles of clean, safe, cheap energy for the whole world.

    And BTW, always IMO, next US prez will be the one that openly will promise the use of Rossi’s E-Tiger.
    Why this?
    Simply because Rossi’s industrial thermal (electric?) plants, will be the first to be used. It doesn’t matter if the product will receive continuous improvements, important is to start selling and using it everywhere in the states.

    And Siemens turbines should be deeply involved in getting electricity ASAP.

  • captain

    IMHO UniBO Italy very very soon, then Uppsala Sweden second and MIT (?) third.

    At that point, web LENR internauts will be aware that Cures anticipated revelation of Rossi’s Hot Black Box has had positive effects in convincing common people that a tiny E-Tiger can make miracles of clean, safe, cheap energy for the whole world.

    And BTW, always IMO, next US prez will be the one that openly will promise the use of Rossi’s E-Tiger.
    Why this?
    Simply because Rossi’s industrial thermal (electric?) plants, will be the first to be used. It doesn’t matter if the product will receive continuous improvements, important is to start selling and using it everywhere.

    And Siemens with its turbines should be deeply involved in getting electricity ASAP.

    Yeah, only few months ago Siemens was ready with a turbine tu use steam at 250° C… and now with 600°C for practical use they are … lyric 🙂

  • Sanjeev

    The Zurich program is now available here:

    On 8th Sept, Rossi himself will present the validation report.

    And look at all those names…

  • GreenWin

    It is interesting to note the news of LENR’s acceptance in Europe is accelerating. The OpEd News article “EU Scientific Report Recommends Funding for Cold Fusion Research” is written by Joe Wells. Joe is an American with a PhD from MIT. He is Associate Director for Materials Science & Engineering at Office of Naval Research – Global, in London. Joe’s authorship underscores the accelerating profile of LENR in the mainstream research community.

    The positive effect of these endorsements (following NRL greenlight of Celani) will be to inspire a wave of young minds to enter new energy studies in colleges and universities. The inevitable LENR economic boom lights the fuse. What makes the field more exciting is few if any know what’s really going on. This is like (sorry) e-catnip for aspiring scientists. An entirely new field of study into the atom, its structure and unexplored interactions in condensed materials.

    Ah, to be young 🙂

    • georgehants

      andro Stupa
      August 25th, 2012 at 6:59 AM
      Dear Mr Rossi, is it true that in these days your E-cat is tested by an important university ?
      You gave them the 10 kw e-cat or the Hot-cat for their test ?
      They will publish their results to public ?
      Mr.Focardi works with them ?
      Thank You, I hope great success !
      Andrea Rossi
      August 25th, 2012 at 9:38 AM
      Dear Alessandro Stupa:
      1- Yes
      2- Both
      3- Yes
      4- No, because he is not third party.
      Warm Regards,

      • Andrew Macleod

        So Foccardi is active with Leo corp?

        • Francesco CH


        • Chris

          He acted as Rossi’s consultant right from the start. Piantelli said no, Focardi said OK.

          • AB

            As always, Rossi is easier to understand if his English is translated into Italian because he first thinks in Italian and then translates it. His English is often less than 100% clear, but his Italian is usually less ambiguous.


            The safety certification process for the industrial plants has been made. Besides this, within October will be finished and published the indipendent validation test made by a University.


            Il processo di certificazione di sicurezza per gli impianti industriali è stato fatto. Oltre a questo, entro ottobre sarà finito e pubblicato il test indipendente di convalidazione effettuato da un’Università.

            Human translation back into English:

            The safety certification process for the industrial plants is done. Besides this, in October the independent validation test made by an university will be finished and published.

            In my opinion, Rossi is saying exactly what’s written in the human translation.

          • Thanks. Do we know what certification would be granted in Italy (EU?) in connection with industrial plant of this type, and whether it would be acceptable outside the EU?

          • I’ll answer my own question! I’ve had a quick look around and it seems that compliance with a ‘functional safety’ standard called IEC EN 61508 would be required, together with either IEC 61511 for general industrial process equipment, or IEC 61513 if it is considered to be nuclear. Testing and assessment would apparently be carried out by companies such as TUV or Intertek. Unfortunately it seems that it would not be possible to confirm either that the e-cat has been subjected to the appropriate certification process, or that it has been duly certified.

            If the plant falls under any EU directive(s) (it almost certainly would) Rossi also has to supply ‘CE’ certification, which in effect is his confirmation that any devices he manufactures comply with the appropriate directives. In addition, all industrial plant must conform with various different national Industrial Safety and Health ordinances. These can be very strict and detailed. For instance if Rossi wants to sell his plant in Germany, he would need to show compliance with the new “Betriebssicherheitsverordnung” (Ordinance on Industrial Safety and Health), “Geräte und Produktsicherheitsgesetz” (Equipment and Product Safety Act – GPSG) together with “Arbeitsschutzgesetz” (the Occupational Health and Safety Act) and various other ‘elf’n safety’ legislation. It would be pretty similar in any EU country, but detailed requirements will differ.

            Altogether a minefield, and frankly it is rather difficult to imagine that all hurdles have been cleared and sales of industrial 1MW units can proceed without further ado. Also, none of these standards appear to be automatically acceptable in the US, where there are parallel standards.

          • admin

            Thanks for doing the research, Peter. Very interesting. Why do you say it’s not possible to find out whether the certification has been done on the E-Cat?

            Are these records sealed up somehow?


          • If I’m honest, that is an assumption on my part, having failed to find any relevant information after a quarter hour of looking! However I suspect that like Underwriters Laboratories they simply don’t provide the info as a service, at least not to the casual researcher. It may be possible to purchase access or blag it, or maybe a more diligent or more persistent ‘hunter’ could find something.

          • NI have rather helpfully provided a list of basic certifications required in a variety of countries at, although some of these are N/A as they are only concerned with EM emissions (not including gamma!).

          • Omega Z


            Many times you see things from other sites brought to the attention of us on ECW.

            You’ve been brought to the attention of the Cobraf blog.

            Just to Add. Most certifications are under NDA until released by the customer.

          • Nothing too disparaging I hope, Omega!

          • Omega Z

            Just your post above.

            August 25, 2012 at 6:59 pm

          • Till Germer

            Ask an expert.
            (heat systems, heat installation)

            Mr. Dobler is one of the speakers at the zurich conference
            and perhaps one of the german licensees.

            He _must_ know the answers. This is his daily job.

          • Ivan_cev

            Rossi have some winning cards, like the support from Focardi, but he has not made a independent validation yet, He has offered independent reports and publication of his technology by 10 September, and validation from a university by October. so lets wait and see, is early to speculate.
            I suppose certifications are public domain documents, so any one could be assured the product fits certain standards, will not describe functionality will only certify standards has been meet.
            Some have developed faith in Rossi and other are skeptic, I will prefer to be skeptic until real independent test validate the product.
            LENR has shown evidence of being real, Rossi still have to provide this evidence.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            It’s risky going through a translator twice. As they say “Something is lost in the translation”. When you do it twice, you’re magnifying the problem.

            You can test this yourself by translating your own English to Italian and back to English. Sometimes it returns to your original meaning. Sometimes it comes back a different message.

    • GreenWin

      What is extra intriguing is how Wells draws the connection between the European Commission Report and the October 28th Rossi demo:

      “…it’s interesting to see this workshop was held on the same day that Andrea Rossi was carrying out the test of his first 1 MW plant in Bologna.”
      Dr. Joe Wells, Associate Director for Materials Science & Engineering at Office of Naval Research Global.

  • Lu

    My understanding is that the original 1MW E-Cat, the one used in the October ’11 demo and later redone, was delivered to a European customer in July’ish and is the system that has been certified and later this year will be available for selective visits. My guess is the Italian licensee is heavily involved in this.

    Rossi’s talk is titled, “Test results of the 600 degree E-Cat, validation by third party company”. Note that it doesn’t say “*independent* third party company” so it’s probably a company associated with the Rossi’s business and while interesting won’t have much value in validating the E-Cat which is why the University of Bologna will be repeating the tests, IMO.

    We’ll have to see what actually happens here but it doesn’t look like as much progress as I had hoped.

    • GreenWin

      Lu, I feel the same way about hot fusion. But that boondoggle has cost the human race $250B over the past 60 years. ZERO useful energy and very little progress. Comparatively, LENR is performing summa cum laude.

      • Lu

        Yes, if we look at just what’s happened over the past year the progress has be remarkable. The results displayed and discussed at the ICCF-17 conference alone are very exciting and have exceeded what’s happened in hot fusion, although I wouldn’t go so far as to say that hot fusion research has been a complete waste of time and money.

        Unfortunately Rossi has set the bar very high for cold fusion and while the results he has mentioned are amazing we have had no real progress in independent third party validations for these claims. It looks to me that is about to change so I’m just (impatiently) waiting to see what happens. The results to be published in September, while not independent, should still give us plenty to chew on.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          ….we have had no real progress in independent third party validations for these claims.

          In Rossi’s mind, maybe he doesn’t care about convincing us with 3rd party validations. Since now he seems to be trying to cater to the industrial market, he only has to convince his industrial customers, who bring their own experts. Perhaps Rossi is afraid of rousing BigOil’s awareness. This way he can gradually build a critical mass before the E-Cat is out of the bag.

          • Yes, all agreed. Those who constantly demand verification of one kind or another should bear these points in mind.

          • GreenWin

            Patience please?

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        GreenWin, just out of interest, can you point me to some sources substantiating the 250 Billion? I can only find a meager 20 Billion. I’m starting to change my opinion about hot fusion and would like some numbers to backup my feeling about it. In retrospect it seems like a very costly exercise.

        • GreenWin

          Fusion General Interest,
          International Organizations
          Fusion Research Worldwide
          Fusion Mag Confinement Programs

          A cumulative average of $4B is spent annually – in non-black fusion and related programs. Fusion energy was first promised as a source of clean, unlimited energy in 1951.

  • barty

    Wow, JET Energy has a new homepage, which looks much more serious as the old one:

    • There is some interesting stuff there… but I wish these people would use a professional editor occasionally – the text contains some very convoluted grammar, several repetitions from cut’n paste operations, and some mashups like “generated directly from stwo, driven by more, deuterons….”

      I haven’t really paid much attention to the Swartz and Hagelstein stuff (outputs seemed too low to be very interesting) but they now seem to be claiming a COP (they call it HF/Pin) of up to 16. The main new info seems to be that their ‘nanocomposite’ is now composed of zinc oxide, palladium and nickel (the MIT Nanor was just Zr02 and Pd) both loaded with deuterium rather than hydrogen, and activated/controlled by means of a ‘driving device’ (frequency generator, like AR?). They provide data for the ‘old’ type nanor but apparently not for the nickel variant. Their wet ‘Phusor’ system seems to be a close relative to Nanor and appears to be more or less a derivative of the P&F cell (platinum and palladium electrodes in ‘heavy water’).

      • Jeff

        Totally agree about the web site. Other issue with the demo earlier this year is that the power levels were very low, a few milliwatts. Not an issue of itself, but your calorimetry better be pretty good if you’re going to make claims based on a few milliwatts of heat.

        • Ivan_cev

          At this stage the power level is not important, the crucial point is to prove the concept and replicate the experiments, so it achieve standard of science, milliwatts could be escalated once the concept has been proved, Celani is in the watts with just o.3 gr of active material, Rossi says he uses about 250 gr per load. so I do not think Celani device irrelevant is just a prototype. a proof of concept. the Same for the NANOR, the problem is the secrecy of the developers as in any Game there will be winners and losers, but the science will benefit humanity.
          Rossi on the other hand are in the realm of science fiction with 10kw modules. lets cross fingers and hope is real and not just a scam that will put LENR another 20 years back.

      • Correction: zirconium oxide, not zinc oxide, of course.

  • Visitor

    Mr Rossi!

    The world in a growing Recession and Choking from pollution.
    Your technology can start saving life the moment you choose.
    You would still earn tons of money if you choose that today is the day.
    So, what else is keeping you from starting to save lives right now?

    • Visitor, I’m sure Andrea Rossi occasionally lurks here to see what is being said about him and the e-cat, but he never comments as far as is known, and you might be better off addressing your question directly to him on JONP.

      • captain

        August 25th, 2012 at 1:24 PM

        Mr Rossi!

        The world in a growing Recession and Choking from pollution.
        Your technology can start saving life the moment you choose.
        You would still earn tons of money if you choose that today is the day.
        So, what else is keeping you from starting to save lives right now?



        Andrea Rossi
        August 25th, 2012 at 2:03 PM

        Dear Visitor:
        We are working for that, at the top of our efforts.
        Warm Regards,

        • Visitor

          I saw that but sorry, this still doesn’t answer my question.
          If his technology works, as he says, then nothing stops him from calling a press conference with worldwide journalists, presidents of the leading nations and tell them: “Here is my technology, this is the way it works, take it and start developing applications for the benefit of Humanity”.

          • georgehants

            Visitor, your question is valid but of course must then apply to every other person, business, government, and organisation in the World.
            It would seem that to isolate one individual and ask such questions a little strange.
            Rossi is entitled, like all the others in the way our society is built to choose how he distributes his technology. (if genuine)
            It is certainly to early to be able to make a fair judgement on the effectiveness of, his way.

          • Jim

            I’m not sure that doing that will actually speed anything up. Most everyone is waiting until a product is available. And you gotta face it, presidents of leading nations really can’t do that much to speed things up. All they will really do is make silly speeches taking credit for the technology but leaving themselves space in case in doesn’t pan out.

          • LCD

            Jim course they could. Problem is it likely wouldn’t be as profitable initially for Rossi.

    • GreenWin

      We have waited 60 years for hot fusion, Visitor. It has cost the human race $250B and there is no chance of it delivering useful energy for another 25 years at best. Rossi’s brand of cold fusion has been active for a little more than two years. See the difference?

      • Visitor

        GreenWin, what does the duration has anything to do with that?
        How does it answer my question?
        If a person in front of you is drowning and you have a Float, wouldn’t you threw it to him?
        This is exactly the case and you can’t blame one to wonder why does Mr Rossi is not releasing the float and saving the drowning.
        You want to answer that? It will be nice to hear, but don’t tie it with not relevant facts.

        • captain

          U can’t blame mr Rossi, but it seems to me that the guy in need of help/attention/caution is mr Rossi himself.

          Are we sure he’s always wearing a dose of anti-viper vaccine?

        • GreenWin

          It’s an analogy Visitor. With a parable. We have waited 60 years for the promises from hot fusion scientists around the world. Why will they not release the hot fusion reactor that works?? It means simply, learn to have patience.

          • To Miss O blood type.

            I can understand your feelings but the human race operates on a two steps forward then two steps backwards basis.
            Mainly due to ignorance, arrogance, greed…

            People are afraid of change so they adapt slowly.

            Many don’t believe in global warming so processes to save us are hampered.

            Genetic engineering is the only reason why billions of people get food every day, yet
            the average person is 100% against

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            Many don’t believe in global warming so processes to save us are hampered.

            I disagree. Your “solutions” would quickly bankrupt the world. Besides, LENR will quickly solve all real or imagined CO2 fears.

            Genetic engineering is the only reason why billions of people get food every day, yet the average person is 100% against it.

            I agree with you on this one. We need to be careful with GMOs but it’s the only way we can feed the urban masses.

          • Tony76

            “Genetic engineering is the only reason why billions of people get food every day, yet
            the average person is 100% against”

            If you mean engineering through crossbreeding, then I agree.
            If you mean treating Nature as a childs lego-brick project, chucking genes around with abandon, then I’d like to see references to your statement.

          • I agree with Tony76. We do not yet have the tools we need to ‘engineer’ genes cleanly. Currently, when a desired gene is transferred from one species to another, it is very likely that other genetic information will be transferred simultaneously, with unknown consequences.

            For instance, there is an accumulating body of evidence that several transgenic varieties of corn can have unplanned(?) effects on hormone balance in mammals leading to disturbance of reproduction. Such side-effects could take decades to be conclusively proven, by which time enormous, and possibly irreversible, damage to populations could be sustained.

            Current legislation, especially in the US, has been rigged so that an assumption of safety is built in, and safety testing is relatively narrow, shallow and short term. This situation needs to be reversed if we are to be able to benefit safely from genetic engineering of food species. The function and effect of every new gene introduced must be accounted for, including RNA involved in the transfer process (

            Apologies, Admin for going some way off-topic here.

          • jfab

            “Genetic engineering is the only reason why billions of people get food every day”

            Lol, so untrue. 20 years ago, humanity was already 5+ billions and GMOs weren’t around at all. And anyway people are starving today AS MUCH as 20 years ago, wake up!

    • Andrew Macleod

      Without the ecat in the world nothing is changed! Yes it has the possibility of changing the game, and it will change game when Rossi is ready. Then man is working hard to get this in the hands of the public which IMO is the quickest way to make a difference. If left to scientists it would be decades before we see any kind of product.

      • jfab

        You’re right, the Manhattan project and Apollo program is the work of one or two guys in there basement. Not.

        The thing Rossi fanboys don’t understand is the day a LENR reactor (E-cat, Brillouin, Celani, whatever) will be available to the public, it will become outdated in a matter of month when new models based on proper science will be released.

        When the 1st model will be out, every university on the planet will starting working like crazies on LENR, a new understanding will emerge and better reactors will be created.

        • Actually several of us fanboys have discussed that topic in the past on this forum, and a number of suggestions were made regarding possible ways of dealing with the inevitable problem of rapid obsolescence.

          Initially development will most likely come from an Edisonian approach by a multitude of companies who are seeking to avoid replicating already patented systems, so they can patent their own – a California gold-rush.

          It seems likely that theoretical advances will be mostly built on observations of the behaviour of the many approaches that will result, and will probably come primarily from the hands-on developers. Once they get their heads out of their, er, backsides, theoretical physicists will be playing a game of catch-up for years before they can get ahead of the experimenters by using predictions based on theory.

    • Jim Johnson

      Suppose you have several distinct courses of action. Each one will save a different number of people over a different period of time. The actual numbers of people and the ranges of time for each course of action are effectively impossible to calculate exactly. General estimates can however be made. One course may save only a few people, but quickly, and another course many people, but over a longer period. After you choose one course, other courses may be permanently closed.

      Which course do you choose?

      It turns out that gathering, protecting, concentrating and directing business resources is a highly reliable general approach for producing value *and good* in the world.

      If you have a better approach, along with some *real empirical evidence* showing that it has performed as well standard business practice, then please suggest it.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    Dear Dr Rossi,

    Will the certification of the industrial E-Cat cover your Hot-Cat?

    Iggy Dalrymple
    I asked this question twice on JONP and both times it vaporized.
    Maybe I’ve used up my welcome.

    • Luca Salvarani

      I don’t think the certification covers hot-cats. Maybe it’s in progress right now, but it seems to me a more complex and potentially dangerous device… for example it could reach 1,200-1,400° degree and so it’s more risky than the other model, that could reach “only” 600°

      • captain

        Dangerous…risky… Yeah, but for customer’s pockets maybe!

        Having the reactors plant stopped because of nickel melting: that’s a sign of how the system is intrinsically safe.

        About the hot steam? No prob at all since several decades…

        Gamma radiations? It seems absolutely nothing at all…

        It’s not an appliance for home use: another good point in its favor…

        Hence, what risk and danger?

        IMHO risk and ‘danger’ could only come out from USPTO and UL: and to solve this, Rossi has only to pray for and watch …weather forecasts 🙂

        • LCD

          According to storms it cpuld be producing dangerous trtium.

          • captain

            Rossi has said that his reactor emits no dangerous radiations, that’s all.

    • Lu

      My questions vaporize as well–I think I pissed him off with one at some point.

      Rossi mentioned way back in his May newsletter (see that “the industrial plants will get the necessary certification within weeks” so we can safely assume that this has occurred and not the high-temperature E-Cats.

      • Alexvs

        Does anyone honestly think that after next Zuericherkongress the E-Cat story will be more useful than it is now? (i.e. absolutely not useful)

        • dragonX

          I am waiting September and October for next Rossi developments. If by then it is still “Rossi says”, I for one will go back to my normal life and not even look back.

          • barty

            I’m doing this since the defkalion presentation at ICCF…

  • Roger Bird

    I am still waiting for sentences that do not start with “Rossi said”. I am waiting to see sentences something like “The President of Consolidated Edison said today that they will be replacing their coal fired generators with Andrea Rossi’s Hot Ecats.” Or something along that line. Otherwise we are at 4 choices: (1) Rossi is a lunatic. (2) Rossi is a scam artist. (3) Rossi is setting up people like me to look distrustful and stupid. OR (4) Rossi so doesn’t care that he doesn’t mind if people distrust him. I am hoping for number 4. I suppose that it could be a combination of the four choices

    • daniel maris

      Yes, most of us are waiting for something like that.

    • I have a different 123 list. 1) It’s real and Rossi is competent. 2) It’s real and Rossi is incompetent. 3) It’s a scam.

      Now this is very tricky because all indications are that it might be real but very unstable and unreliable. He could sincerely believe its real and he’s competent and be buying time. Meanwhile back in the US there is a drought and corn is being used to create ethanol instead of feeding hungry people around the world. Have a nice dinner in Zurich Rossi!

      • Omega Z


        Like Most People, You don’t realize that Most of the corn crop is for livestock feed.

        That after Extracting the sugars from it for alcohol, You process & dry it & have a High Protein Livestock Feed. Bushel for Bushel you have nearly identical weight gain in livestock. It’ speculated that something removed with the sugars in the process may have a negative effect to weight gain. Thus near negligible weight gain difference.

        U.S. Farmers prefer corn to the high protein feed because of additional costs. The Chinese buy hugh amounts of it. The higher price is more then offset in the shipping cost savings. More protein per pound.

        Problem with corn ethanol is in the mass production. Energy wise you only gain about 10%. Of coarse the additional oil to replace it would force up oil prices, so there is a definite positive gain in the big picture.

        Corporates like (ADM) gets about 2 gal. per bushel. At the farm level with proper setup could double that. Cost would be about 1/4 as much. This would require a different collection infrastructure & regulations, but the big Negative to the Corporations is that it would distribute most of the profits at the local level instead of Corporate level…

        LENR could have a drastic impact on reducing cost/benefit of Corn Ethanol in the remaining time fuels would be required. Including more gallons per bushel by 50%.

        • Jim

          “LENR could have a drastic impact on reducing cost/benefit of Corn Ethanol in the remaining time fuels would be required. Including more gallons per bushel by 50%.”

          More than that. We can generate gasoline out of CO2 and water if we use energy. With a 1Mw e-cat generator, someone could start generating gasoline and sell it for much less than $4 per gallon. I don’t know how to do the calculations because I don’t have the numbers, but possibly under $1 per gallon.

          Add that to switching ships to using the e-cat instead of gas engines (which would be easier than converting cars and trucks at first), and watch how the price of gasoline drops everywhere.

        • LCD

          If LENR+ comes out you would not need ethanol for fuel.

        • Roger Bird

          You understand that the pasteurized milk that is produced by this sort of factory farming is equivalent to the excrement that the poor cows are forced to stand in all day long.

      • GreenWin

        Charles, FYI according to the USDA only 12% of the U.S. corn crop is used to make food products. The majority of this is sold as corn oil. The U.S. supplies roughly 1/2 all corn to the planet. The proportion of corn used to make food has not changed over the last 20 years.

        • douglas white

          i’m going to visit the USDA site and see what they say the pie-chart is: corn used for feed (agriculture) for human consumption ( vegetable corn, high-fructose corn syrup, and corn oil ) and how much for ethanol production. let’s see what they say…..

      • jacob

        good luck with that

    • GreenWin

      In any case, it makes for great drama.

    • Jim Johnson

      Or, any number of other choices, many associated with the guidelines entrepreneurial common sense.

      To be aware of those choices, people need to take the time to study the available information, assign probabilities to the veracity of it, and evaluate alternative scenarios that are implied by that information and those probabilities.

      What I like about this site is that there are many people who contribute to that endeavor.

      The key is that it takes time and effort.

      I’m not sure how blanket expressions of impatience, frustration and pessimism add value.

  • SteveS

    This could play into the next Presidential Election if the September verification is solid, its just that big of news.

  • jacob

    Mr. Rossi is not telling us everything he knows,probably for good reason.
    As he said Leonardo Corp is now employing 63 people,up from 8 that could almost only be accomplished with the current sales of industrial E-cats to support the payroll of 63 employees.Not just the sales ,but actually getting paid for them,which is proof they work.
    business is booming for him obviously ,expect about 400 people on the payroll in a year from now, and 3000 in 2 years from now,it all takes time to expand a new technology.
    that is just my humble opinion.
    he stopped talking how many Ind.E-cats he sold lately.

    • GreenWin

      63 people on staff. Who would be financing this expansion? It certainly indicates a margin of support from somewhere. I wonder if the presence of Dr. Andrea Aparo Senior Adviser to the CEO of Ansaldo Energia (a $1.8B nuclear and fossil energy company) on the NI Week LENR Panel – could play some role. Ansaldo Energia sent one of their nuclear physicists to observe Rossi’s October 28th 1MW demo in Bologna.

      Oddly, October 28th was also the date the European Commission’s workshop on “Materials for Emerging Energy Technologies” took place in Brussels. Read what a U.S. Navy scientist has to say about these events:

      • jacob

        I am sure there is much more going on behind closed doors,but new energy for 2050 ? seems at this point to far in the future

        • GreenWin

          They use that far off date to keep the wheels on Wall Street from hiring hit men. Like a doctor telling the patient he’s got 30 more years… instead of three. A lot of 1 percenters will panic when they realize this technology is here, it’s going to market, and cannot be stopped.

          • jacob

            It will hit the marked, maybe black market first,if LENR remains in the dark ages,thanks to media blackout.

          • Rockyspoon

            But if he slips a home unit into Home Depot during 2013 and avoids the “CF” name, he’s likely to sell all he can manufacture just from word of mouth alone. Those currently controlling the energy paradigm will be blindsided and not know what hit ’em.

            It will be delicious to see.

  • Miles

    UPDATED: Availability is Mid 2013 for a 10Kw e-Cat 🙂

    All signs pointing to a Green CLEAN Future !!! September can’t come soon enough.

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