Certifiers Won't Allow E-Cats to Run on E-Cat Power

An interesting comment from Andrea Rossi yesterday reveals something of the role that those involved in certifying the E-Cat products are having on the design and development of E-Cat units. To be commercially viable, Leonardo Corp. needs to get its products into the marketplace, and in order to do so must gain safety approval from bodies that certify products for safety. So far, according to Rossi, only the low temperature industrial plants have received certification — work on approving the high temperature plants is in process.

Now to the point of this post. The key characteristic of E-Cat technology is that it produces heat — apparently lots of it. Another characteristic is that in order to run in a stable manner, heat needs to be applied to the E-Cat reactor. Rossi sometimes refers to this heat application as the ‘drive’. We have heard that so far the drive can be in the form of an electrical resistor, or natural gas. As we know, both electricity and gas can be quite expensive, and even though the E-Cat is able to produce more power than is fed into it, it still consumes a lot of conventional power.

One fairly obvious solution to this problem might be this: if the E-Cat produces lots of heat, why not just use some of the E-Cat’s own heat to drive itself — or, use one E-Cat to drive another E-Cat? Here are two exchanges on the subject on the Journal of Nuclear physics.

Q: Dear Mr. Rossi, Recently you stated that new versions of E-cat can work with gas heating. My question is: Would it be possible to use the heat produced by one E-cat to activate a second E-cat?

A: No.

Q: We know from your postings that you have achieved 1250C output temperatures for Hot eCats. We also know this is with 200C of the melting point of nickel. And you have previously stated that natural gas could be used to ignite the eCat reaction. So why would not the thermal output from one Hot eCat be capable of igniting the reaction of another eCat? Please clarify as you can without revealing any secrets.

A: Regarding the Hot cat in symbiosis: is not possible because the drive is a safety system and a safety system cannot depend from the Ecat itself. This is an issue emerged during the safety certification process.

I followed up with a question emailed to Andrea Rossi about whether electricity produced from an E-Cat could be used to power itself, or another E-Cat — even if the electricity was stored in a battery, and his response was, “No, they want the drive completely independent.”

So theoretically it seems that there are ways to close-loop the E-Cats and have them running in what would be an almost infinite COP off their own power — but from the point of view of safety certifiers, this is not approved. The logic must be that in order to prevent a malfunction, the input power to the E-Cat must come from a reliable and approved power source, such as the electrical grid or gas mains.

To get into the marketplace, Leonardo has no choice but to go along with what the certifiers say — even if they put limits on this technology. Many people have expressed surprise that Andrea Rossi says so often that the E-Cat will be integrated with other energy sources for a long time. Perhaps his position is based on his understanding of what will be demanded by those who certify his products for safety.

  • Chris

    Is he talking about an international authority?

    I hope it isn’t the same for all countries. If it is so only in some, that’s worse for them. The UK red flag laws for automobile vehicles lasted for quite some time and left the Brit car industry lagging behind those abroad.

    I can understand it for a direct application though. It ought to be sufficient for the intermediate system to be reliable, even just as far as cutting it off goes.

    • Lu

      Well this all begs the question, what will happen if the drive fails? Rossi has stated that if the reaction runs away then the NI melts and there is no more reaction. Someone else somewhere stated that the time for this melting to happen may not be fast enough which again raises the question of what would happen in this case. Maybe nothing–just the destruction of the E-Cat–which I wouldn’t necessarily consider a safety issue. There’s a lot we don’t know about the E-Cat…

      • I would think it a pretty safe bet that there is no minimum time for melting, that is, a substance melts as soon as the phase change energy has been supplied to it, if it happens in a microsecond then it will melt in microsecond. I agree with you though that there is a lot we don’t know (about the E-cat, and about other things).

        • LCD

          Yeah how does it not deform at say 900 C. Its pbvipusly not just Ni.

          I cant type on this dam. Thi.g

      • Ged

        We’re talking about a gram of nickel in a paste; it’ll melt basically instantly. Don’t listen to FUD.

        Never the less, the point at which it melts at is also the point at which steel and copper and many other common house hold metals will be melting. That’s the issue. So, by the time the E-cat core is melting and the reaction is stopping, the entire E-cat housing is probably turning to slag, along with nearby copper pipes, wires, or any other metals close enough to get hit with the full heat of the thing (remember the inverse square law, keeping the E-cat far enough away from susceptible metals will protect those metals as the heat will radiate and be diminished before it reaches them and the reaction stops).

        That’s highly hazardous for a home operation, or even industrial. You don’t want the entire device melting into a puddle of goo; which is likely what would happen if the core got up to its temps to melt. Risk of fire would be high in that situation; let alone one heck of a nasty cleanup to perform.

        So, gotta have satisfactory precautions against that. Even if it happened, it wouldn’t be the end of the world, but boy would it be a mess.

        • It will be very hard for anyone to create a reliable piece of equipment that will take this level of punishment. This thing is collapsing matter in those voids and creating small “Bosanovas” which are then triggering secondary fission and fusion events from the inside—>out.

          ChemE
          http://wp.me/p26aeb-4

        • Machined tungsten casing? It would rocket the cartridge cost but as this part would be recycled it shouldn’t make much difference long term.

          • ChrisT

            Rossi is going to keep screwing around with these endless delays and all this certification nonsense until he looses control of this tech completely. Someone will crack this process and start distributing clone products (or parts) from China, India or other sources.

            I know if I had access to the formula — I’d build my own right now.

        • Earl

          Ged,

          as soon as 1 gram of molten nickel hits 10 grams or 100 grams of steel container of the reactor, its temperature will drop like a rock. There will be no molten slag, no puddle of goo; in fact the heater will show no external sign of over-heating.

          This is all very simple engineering to prevent damage from only a gram of melted nickel.

          Have you ever shaken 1 gram of molten solder from a soldering iron onto a piece of metal?

      • Lu

        OK, found source of reaction time: Cures on Cobraf [Google translation]

        http://translate.googleusercontent.com/translate_c?act=url&depth=1&hl=en&ie=UTF8&prev=_t&rurl=translate.google.com&sl=auto&tl=en&twu=1&u=http://www.cobraf.com/forum/topic.php%3Ftopic_id%3D5747%26reply_id%3D123481535&usg=ALkJrhhKPPgcpFcKg2L9KylUOToGvXGp7A

        “The reaction stops automatically when the nickel melts and this is a guarantee of safety very consistent. But nature phenomena so fast you do not give time to the material to melt. These phenomena, never occurred during the tests, can not be excluded from the theoretical point of view because there is no accepted theory and proven that exactly describes what happens in the crystal lattice ”

        “The ultrafast phenomena that may cause problems are only a hypothesis that arises from the fact that there is a theory. The practice says that there have never been, but as long as the theory does not confirm the hypothesis will always be there around the corner. Certain phenomena with the speed of the electronic control is not enough. ”

        Basically because they is no accepted theory they cannot rule it out. Probably after many hours of operation they can rely on empirical results.

        • Ged

          I can agree with that point. But I do not know what phenomenon that could be, so it seems like a “boogyman”.

          • Omega Z

            Ged

            That’s the dilemma. It’s new. Nobody knows. Only real time use & possibly a confirmed theory in time. Eventually it will work out.

  • Steveta_uk

    I don’t understand how this control is supposed to work. The ECAT is generating up to 6 times more heat energy than the resistor (or gas burner) that is driving it, so how does turning off the supply turn off the ECAT?

    • admin

      The problem is that turning off the heat supply doesn’t turn off the E-Cat, it apparently makes the reaction stronger, causing it to possibly run out of control. The drive tames the cat! Rossi says the end result of an uncontrollable reaction is that eventually the nickel powder will melt at its melting point and the reactor will shut down — but perhaps there are other consequences that the certifiers are concerned about.

      • GreenWin

        Frank, I would call the Ni melt danger “The Mojave Syndrome.” A runaway cat gets hot as the Mojave – but goes no further.

        • Ged

          At 1500-1600 C, enough to melt the nickel, the E-cat will also be hot enough to melt a lot of other things, like copper and even steel (which ranges from 1300-1600 C for a melting point depending on the type of steel). It’d basically make a big metal slag mess of whatever location the E-cat is at. That is a serious fire and safety hazard!

          Sure, that kills the reaction, but that’s a lot of collateral damage, and that’s what they are guarding against. 1200 C is the upper limit for material safety, basically, not just for the nickel core.

          • GreenWin

            An engineering problem. Add an upper bound melt agent – a substance that melts even before nickel. It destroys the NA sites and quenches the reaction. Simply replace the cartridge (reaction chamber.)

          • LCD

            Eject the core baby.

          • jacob

            LENR should be brought to market with restrictions ,if need be,and will be accepted by the masses as a very efficient heater,just like the UV heaters that put out 2.5 times the heat in the form of radiant heat,few have even noticed ,that UV heater are the most cost efficient heaters on the market today, every fridge or heatpump is overunity and most people know it.

            UV heat heats my house with oil as backup.

            UV heaters are rated to heat 2.5 times the square footage,and if a water heater was based on absorbing the UV rays in a lead shield surrounding the watertank,my guess would be a water heater with a COP of 2.5 in a do it yourself project is possible.
            The overunity is created with a reflector like aluminum or copper.
            remove the reflector and you get no overunity.

          • Chris

            I don’t get what you say about UV heaters. How are they overunity? Could you give a link to better details?

            I suspect it isn’t a relevant topic and I’m sure heat pumps aren’t either.

          • jacob

            chris the new moderator? infrared heaters have radiations which are turned into heat,E-cats have gamma radiations turned into heat,reflectors multiply the intensity and cause overunity,remember this chris ,and one day you will see the light.

          • Good solution. Combine that with a ‘fusible plug’ (steam boiler technology) that melts at the upper limit temp and vents the hydrogen and/or allows CO2 to enter the cartridge (as you suggested in another post). You would then have three (4 if venting/quenching separated) passive fail-safes – metal quench, venting/gas quenching, nickel melt – surely that would be enough to satisfy the most ardent safety certificator – and no external power supplies needed at all.

          • It remind me old discussion with Defkalion.
            It seems that in case of emergency they vent.
            They also “self-destruct”, but it seems not only to protect IP, but mainly for safety.

            Discussing with Defkalion it was clear that they have worked on the safety for certification, since the beginning.

            finally it is probable that the two products will have similar safety principles, despite great differences in design.

          • Earl

            Do you really think that a couple grams of melted nickel will be able to penetrate lead shielding and a steel outer case of the heater? It would not even melt through the steel container tube of the reactor.

            Not only does damaged nickel nano powder stop the reaction immediately, the temperature of any melted nickel would drop like a rock as soon as it touches any other metal. 5 grams is not 5 tonnes.

  • Omega Z

    If you have a Nuclear Power plant, It can’t provide power to itself. It draws power from the Grid connected to other power plants. It’s a safety issue. Requires redundancy. This actually applies to all power plants to some degree.

    This will be the case for at least 2 decades. This also means the consumer wont get all the cost savings for sometime. Someone has to pay to dismantle the old Grid system. That Be YOU!. That was always the case. Either the present Power producers keep a portion of that savings to pay for it OR Higher taxes to pay for it.

    Rossi has been implying this for quite awhile. Since shortly after the October Demo more or less. In multiple posts he has said that the New would be integrated with the Old for a long time.

    • LCD

      I said it once I’ll say it again. At no other time in history have you had something do small producing do much energy. The moment the first ecat plant comes out publicly my self and others have the knowledge and expertise to build our own and ot won’t be more than a year before do it yourself kits will be able to retrofit these home eat kits to self sustain.
      Regulate that!
      Power to the people baby!
      Assuming they are safe of course.

    • Filip47

      Let’s not forget, the Ecat is clean, maybe the most important, so even if the costs are equal, it still is a good deal.

    • mcloki

      The Grid won’t be dismantled for a long time. If ever. Most people would continue on getting power from the electric utility. They would just demand cheaper rates. The bigger issue is dismantling nuclear power plants.

  • I take the views that there is no technical reasons why the e cat couldn’t run from its own power. Power is power.

    The real issue is political. The elites run the power companies. This technologically unjustified restriction protects that investment. I fully expect that if the ecats are ever used in conventional power plants an exemption would be granted. There is one law for the people and another law for the elite. Just because the technology exists to free us, does not mean we will be allowed to go free.

    • Filip47

      All humans are equal but some are more equal than others.
      A cliché, but a damn good one.

      • David Smith

        As I had posted before, If the Governmental power doesn’t want this to happen, it won’t and there’s not much any of us can do about it except vote them out.

    • mcloki

      I read it as a redundancy feature. I think they are worried that having the e-cat self power could lead to a runaway situation. Like putting the safety features on a separate circuit.

      • Marc Stone

        This is not that bad. Lets say you had a city with 50 coal burning plants. You then switch out 49 coal burning plants with low heat e-cats and use 1 coal burning plant to act as the “drive” for the other 49. If this happens, and e-cats do turn into the massive revolution we think it is, it will only be a matter of time before a closed-loop system is certified. Maybe 5-10 years later. Then you can switch off that 1 coal burning plant. Not a big deal if you take the long view. Better to comply with conservative regulators. Additionally, If we went closed loop now…and there was a runaway reaction…that might set back LENR more than these safety regulations will. Dont be hasty.

        • So who controls everything? The owner of the coal plant. And that’s my point.

          • Tony76

            Linda “Forbidden – Users from your country are not permitted to browse this site.”
            What’s the deal on the Linda link “http://aotearoaisnotforsale.com/” ?

          • Tony, you are probably proxying through a server in a country we normally don’t accept traffic from. To view the site, change your proxy settings or get a fresh route from Tor.

          • I can access Linda’s link with no problems (from UK).

    • Tony76

      Yes agreed – political control reasons are the heart of it, including ability to meter and tax the hell out of it. No one allowed to go off-grid and rid themselves of nanny state.

      • Case samples would be phone, internet and text charge.

        These things are actually next to free when connections are in place. Over the years competitive forces drop the price down.

        If some one has exclusive E-cat rites for a country – they will be charging heaps for the power it produces any way. ha

        It will take years for prices to drop.

  • Al D

    I think that the certifiers are just being very cautious. Bear in mind that there is as yet no scientific consensus concerning just how, why, or if this thing works at all. I have seen everything from fusion to previously unascertained chemical reactions to quantum singularities (micro black holes). I think there are at this time well founded reasons to not want whatever the reaction is to get out of hand.

  • How is the E-Cat going to know what the source of the electrical power is?

    Only a snake that bites it’s own tail can tell that it belongs to him.