"Shocking": Design of 1 MW Plants 1.2 x 0.4 m

Just when you thought that Andrea Rossi could not provide too much more surprising information about his work on the E-Cat comes something new.

Joseph Fine
August 28th, 2012 at 8:17 PM
Andrea Rossi,
For the listed Hot-Cat (“Cattus calidi”) dimensions, with an outer diameter of 90 mm and length of 330 mm, I calculated a volume of 0.0021 cubic meters. With a 10 kW power output, that means power per unit volume is 4763.33 kW / cubic meter.
Of course, other equipment is also needed. But even allowing for a factor of at least 20 brings this down to 238 kW/ cu. meter. “Cattus calidi, indeedi.” (Hot cat, indeed.)

Joseph

Dear Dr Joseph Fine:

You are perfectly right: in fact we are designing the new 1 MW plants, for hot temperature, and the dimensions will be those of a cylinder with a diameter of 1.2 m and a lencth od 0.4 m.
Is shocking, I myself are surprised, but it is so.

Warmest Regards,
A.R.

Joseph fine is basing his calculation on the size of the reactor in the famous Cures photograph which Andrea Rossi provided, which is not much larger in length than a standard ruler, with a diameter smaller than a 1 liter soft drink bottle. I suppose that by arranging these units in a compact manner it is not inconceivable to reach the dimensions that Rossi mentions here. There will of course need to be plumbing involved if the plant is producing steam, but with the tube design of these reactors you could perhaps simply thread piping through the hole of each reactor.

I must add that I’m no engineer (if you can’t already tell!) — so others may have better ideas about what might be involved here. Going from a large shipping container to something the size of a medium size barrel which produced perhaps 10 times the energy as the low temperature plant would be no mean feat. I guess the other question that is bound to come up is whether Rossi is lying about this. You must use your own judgment about that.

UPDATE: This comment from Rossi clarifies the design:

Dear Franco:
Attention: the dimensions 1.2 x 0.4 is not the surface of the surface of the reactors! Inside this drum of 1.2 x 0.4 m there are 100 reactors , each of one having about 1 200 cm^2 of surface !
I talked of the dimensions of the external container, not of the heat exchange surface !

  • Paul Stout

    Or to put it into other terms, 1,341 horsepower.
    I wonder if I can get everything to fit in a mini-van?

    • Warthog

      Probably not, but a motor home………

      Would bring a whole new meaning to the term “boondocking”.

  • georgehants

    Wow, I go out for a couple of hours and we are two new topics moved on.
    I have just put links to this report on the video topic.
    Lets hope the release E-Cat itself starts moving this fast.

    • GreenWin

      George… got my laptop charging off a 10kW e-cat APU under the desk 🙂 7/13/2013

      • georgehants

        GreenWin, If one searches hard enough one can still find some sense from scientists.
        ——
        Los Angeles Times
        It’s not what science knows, but what it doesn’t, that really matters.
        http://www.latimes.com/

        • GreenWin

          George, the link is to the front page. What’s the article??

        • Andrew Macleod

          University circulum should be changed. The first thing every student should learn is “we don’t know what we don’t know”. Because this is where true innovation comes from….

          • georgehants

            Andrew, most of science is clearly out of it’s depth trying to practice science.
            It does not even follow the most obvious and basic of principles, follow Evidence and good Theory and do the bloody research.
            It needs a new organisation to take over science, I would suggest that possibly the Darby & Joan clubs may make a better job of things.

          • Andrew Macleod

            I agree 100% George. There are mexi’cans and mexi’cants. Rossi although Italian is a mexi’can.

          • captain

            Not yet seen skeptics’ comments, thus Rossi’s energy cylinder should be really working and credible.

          • Ivan_cev

            What sort of logic is this? we must be skeptic until you have solid evidence, otherwise your just having faith. and faith is very useful in Religion. (No that I think Religion is bad)

          • captain

            I was just kidding but I firmly believe that Rossi is an honest and credible man.

          • LCD

            Listen the ecat may be true but that doesn’t make Rossi fair nor honest.

          • flo

            bingo

          • alexvs

            I hope not to be banned.
            I hope not to be left aside “awaiting moderation”.
            I hope not to hurt anyone’s feelings, if so please excuse me.
            I am convinced of LENR overunit effect.
            I am skeptic (without prefix) about Mr. Rossi’s E-Cat. If prefix should be patho-, pseudo-, yatro-, psico-… I let to each one judgement.

            I would like to remind you all of the first marketed(?)E-Cats.
            50 units (or so) were located in a container to be sold to an unknown customer (remember: “sale done”). A huge robotized factory was being constructed to produce hundreds of thousands units.
            Circa 1 year passed and those E-Cats have evoluted to a wonderful device reaching 1200ºC, smaller than the original one. Certifications have been made. Mr. Rossi is not only a reputated engineer but also a philanthropic man (see some comments below) taking care of inventions, productions and poor people. From time to time, if anyone asks a question at his site, Mr. Rossi answers shortly and misleading.

            With these sole materials plus serious reflexions about energy scarce, conspirations, bad documented books and little engineering knowledge builds up an enormous circle of persons populating this and other sites.
            But the crude and cruel reality is that up to day no one has the minimal evidence of a working E-Cat. I mean working for days, weeks, months…

            As I stated months earlier Mr. Rossi should not be blamed because E-Cat does not work but for the bigotry and unrespect he shows.

            Please, take it easy, forget the irony in my precedent posts in this thread. It is only the opinion of a single individual.

          • daniel maris

            I am a neutrosceptic! LOL

            With regard to one of your statements, where did Rossi ever say he was in the process of “constructing” a factory. It would be odd to construct a factory for such a small assembly item I think. More likely you buy in the “shells” from outside, maybe manufacture the fuel cartridges on site and then assemble. The most likely scenario is that Rossi would lease a factory building for several years and fit it out. I don’t recall him ever saying he was constructing a factory.

          • alexvs

            I cannot assure when and how. I remember only something said about robotized production whikch implies a big effort and investement. Thanks for your humour sense, it is not common here.

          • Million sounds a big number, but 24/7 production of million devices per year is only two devices per minute. Export and import of the goods and materials is not more than a few truckloads per day. When he speaks about robotic factory, he probably means only the final assembly phase which is clean and dry. Component molding, milling etc. is probably done elsewhere (outsourced). If the device is simple to make, it is possible that the million E-cat factory is basically only one room with assembly line and robots.

          • Methusela
          • Barry

            Thanks Methusela. “Fortunately, Martin lived to see the beginning of the “phase change” of social awareness to cold fusion…” -Mitchell Swartz

          • daniel maris

            I agree with you Pekka. Furthermore, there is no reason why you have to start production at two per minute. You might have five assembly lines in your factory space and you might just start assembling on one line = 1 every five minutes, wait and see how the market receives your product.

            I think people are imagining a huge car assembly plant whereas in reality the E Cat heater would be a much simpler device than a car – probably less than 100 parts (though I am guessing here), compared with 5,000-10,000 for a car.

          • Omega Z

            daniel maris & Pekka

            It’s hard to get this across to most people. Most of us live in a society where few have real life experience at the manufacturing level.

            For the home E-cats, A single Assembly line wouldn’t have to be any bigger then about 12`x60`. 5 assembly lines would probably be about right. Material storage would take up more space then the assembly area.

            If Rossi has a building prepped & ready for setup, the Robots could be brought in, setup & running within 90 days. The Building prep is the time consumer. Up to a year getting thru the bureaucracy.

          • Filip47

            I almost fully agree with you, let’s wait and see what happens in the next two months, for my own opinion they will be very important. I really want to see that 3rd party validation, more than a demo. So Zurich, although many disagree, will be a turning point.
            The positive side is that: I now 100% believe that in the near future there will be a working commercial LENR device.
            Rossi claims astonishing and hard to believe, he reminds me of Scotty Montgomery 🙂

          • daniel maris

            I give Rossi a couple of months now to come up with some convincing evidence of progress – otherwise he will lose a great deal of credibility.

          • georgehants

            alexvs, great comment and very fair.
            The people that have a problem are only those who have an opinion and irrationally believe that their opinion magically becomes fact just because they give it.
            We all wait for Evidence that Rossi is legit, but abusing or denying him before the fat lady sings is not good science.

          • Filip47

            Absolutely True georgehants. “Not until the fat lady sings!” Counts for believers aswell as skeptics. All the rest are patho- skeptics or patho-believers.
            I am optimistic thou. For me the glass is half-full 🙂

          • alexvs

            For the sake of curiosity, although I get the meaning, where comes “the fat lady sings” from?

          • Filip47

            I first picked it up in the movie Independence Day, at the end Smith and Goldblum smoke a victory cigar, but after they have done the job, not before, not until victory hence, until the fat…
            But it’s probably an old expression
            I have a beautiful fat sigar ready for the MOMENT 🙂

          • alexvs

            Thanks.

          • Andrew Macleod

            The exact origins of the fat lady singing is unknown but was popularized by a sports announcer and was a reference to an opera singer that was “plump” singing at the end. There was also references to southern African Americans using a saying “church ain’t over tip the fat lady sings”. A reference to the often large lady’s in the choir .

          • Maestraux

            During the second world war there were ongoing “War Bond” drives that were presented by famous Actors/Singers. One of the mainstays was a heavyweight female singer called something Smith, who invariably closed the show. She was particularly beloved and had a magnificent voice. I’m embarrassed that I can’t recall her first name, but since I remember the shows clearly, you can imagine how old I am.
            It was considered bad form to leave these very long shows “before the Fat Lady sings.”

          • Maestraux

            I remembered.. Kate Smith was the original Fat Lady. Just shows you what going through the alphabet can do!

          • Steven

            It comes from the cartoon stereotype of Operas where the final act is typically an overweight woman with a viking hat singing at a high pitch (sometimes breaking a glass with her voice).

          • One question is how much one requires before saying that his device “works”. It is one thing to require that his device must surpass the chemical limit and hence include a nuclear or “anomalous” process (the 2 liter 10 kW Hot-Cat should do it in 2-3 hours). It is a much taller order to require that his device works for 6 months as claimed (requiring a 6 months endurance test).

            I could be wrong, but I think that still for most people to say that his device “works” it is enough if it exceeds the chemical limit, not necessarily works for full 6 months.

          • alexvs

            It has been demonstrated that the overunity effect is real. My reserves regard only the E-Cat of Mr. Rossi. For that, the efficiency must be, not only overunit but around 6.

          • captain

            U’re a real CAMOskeptic, non need of your explanations.

          • alexvs

            I am not explaining anything. My writing expresses an opinion.
            By the way, what does prefix CAMO- means?

          • captain

            camouflage

          • captain

            sorry, double!

          • Barry

            Nothing wrong with being a skeptic Alexvs. Unfortunately, there is a lot of deception and manipulation in our society. It’s when people sound close-minded (and I’m not refering to you) or enjoy interference, that I have a hard time.
            I actually enjoy talking to open-minded skeptics. They can give food for thought and we are often end with “time will tell”.

          • joe j

            Although past performance is no guarantee of future performance, given the inability of all previous coldfusion machine creators to produce anything that works I’ve long since concluded Rossi’s wondrous machine will fare no better than all his previous inventions.

            btw, alexvs’s post really hurt my feelings moderator please ban his post.

          • jacob

            Mr.Rossi at least answers questions,which I for one appreciate very much,and based on that I built an opinion.

            I learned with Mr.Rossi one has to read between the lines,I disregard anything that I don’t understand and I focus on what I can, to built a complete picture,staying creative and understanding of the current happenings.

            I built on the positive ,I don’t believe the accusers,accusers and finger pointers serve a negative destructive force,and the force is not with them,and creativity will not be found with them.

          • captain

            U don’t absolutely know nothing right of what happened to Rossi in Italy (southern Italy) and why he couldn’t do there what he’s actually making in the states with his Corp.

            So, unless U keep U well informed, even transgogling Italian news concerning him, please shut up!

            Do U know something about the ‘waste business’ in southern Italy? If not, plz shut up!

          • jacob

            I agree

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            So on the one hand you are a skeptic until you have solid proof and on the other hand you believe? According to your logic you cannot believe because there is no solid proof of religion.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            So on the one hand you are a skeptic until you have solid proof and on the other hand you believe?

            According to your logic you cannot believe because there is no solid proof of religion.

          • jacob

            Even if a skeptic has the solid proof,he or she will still have doubt ,after all it is not suppost to work according to Wikipedia .

          • Omega Z

            george

            I’m fast coming to the Opinion that Higher Education is becoming a Bottomless Money Pit of Corruption & politics.

            U.S Projections of $150K per year. A 4 year degree which takes 5 to 6 to complete for most students. Throw in financing & a Million dollars plus looks like the coming norm for an education.

          • georgehants

            Omega Z, I have replied but gone to moderation for some reason, I promise I did not swear at you. Ha.

          • Chris

            What kind of courses did you take, if you think they focus only on what we do know? I must guess they weren’t courses aimed at making new researchers.

          • Andrew Macleod

            I was fortunate enough to go to collage. I say fortunate because I am working and have been for 10 years. If I was a university grad I would still be looking for a job.

          • Chris

            So in essence you are not addressing the point and you don’t actually know how students are taught to become researchers.

            BTW after graduating in physics from university, even I managed to find a job or two, despite that I made no attempt to get into research.

      • Barry

        Heh heh!

  • GreenWin

    Dear Ing Rossi (and friends,) speaking of reactor designs:

    “The basic questions of design, material and shielding, in combining a nuclear reactor with a home boiler and cooling unit, no longer are problems… The system would heat and cool a home, provide unlimited household hot water, and melt the snow from sidewalks and driveways. All that could be done for six years on a single charge of fissionable material costing about $300.”
    Robert Ferry, executive of the U.S. Institute of Boiler and Radiator Manufacturers, 1955.

    Here we are 57 years later and we need only add a prefix: NON-fissionable material.

    • georgehants

      From Vortex
      [Vo]:Titles of full papers on ICCF17 flash memory card added to index
      Jed Rothwell
      Wed, 29 Aug 2012 12:32:25 -0700
      The organizers at ICCF17 distributed a flash memory card with preprint
      versions of the papers on it. I went through the card and entered all of
      the titles into the endnote database. It is now available in the usual
      LENR-CANR.org indices.
      Summary index:
      http://lenr-canr.org/index/Summary/Summary.php
      In the quick search box enter the search term: 17th International
      You might want to change the “View” selection box to “100” so you can see
      all of the papers without using the next arrows.
      You can see from the list that I uploaded only 10 of the papers. I am
      waiting for permission to upload the others.
      Some papers were not ready in time for the preprint collection.
      – Jed
      I wrote:
      I have the paper, not the slides.
      Maybe I should add the slides.
      Okay, I added the slides too.
      Jed

  • Jojo

    This is incredible power density. Seems unbelievable how you can pack 1MW output from these dimensions. * If true, this is more revolutionary than we thought.

    I did some rough calculations. With diameter of the cylinder at 1.2 m, the area is 1.13 m2. Assuming that the coolant pipes take up about 50% if this area, and fitting remaining area with 100 reactors. Each reactor would have a diameter of 4.2 cm. Each 4.2 cm dia. – reactor would be producing 10KW.
    Jojo

    • Luca Salvarani

      In my view the energy density is a paramount goal for Rossi since he has been talking about e-cat applications on trains and ships in the future where the space is valuable and scarce. On the opposite for industrial applications I think that beyond a certain threshold (abd he has certainly ecomapped it) further energy density isn’t very important or valuable.

      • Omega Z

        At this scale, you could now do drop in replacement steam turbines in ships.
        On Board Fuel tanks no longer needed. New Space available for use or scale down ship size in new builds.

    • HHiram

      It’s impressive, but it’s at a scale comparable to existing heat domestic sources (i.e. ovens, ranges, and furnaces).

      For example, a typical stove top gas burner yields 15,000 btu/hour or 4.396 Kilowatts. A typical stove top electric heating element runs at 2.5 KW.

      So if each reactor is a tube 4.2cm x 40cm (~ 1.5 inches x 15 inches) that is a comparable size to a stove top heating element.

      It would indeed be amazing if LENR could produce this much energy is so small a space, but we are not talking about such a huge amount of heat that it would be dangerous or unmanageable. An acetylene torch or arc welder, for example, runs at much higher power than this.

      As a point of comparison, the power density of burning a raw fossil fuel (say, lighting a bucket of gasoline on fire) is far, FAR higher than the hot cat.

      • jacob

        to put it in perspective,the volume of a kitchen stove could produce 6 million btu’s if filled with 140 or so 10 kilowatts hot cat units.

        SIX million btu’s equal about 60 oil furnaces running full blast.

        Old rockefeller just turned around in his grave.

  • Karl

    I’ve tried to put myself in a marketing position of the container 1MW E-Cat. In doing so I’ve think it is not so easy to identify possible customer segments for the current 1MW container. With all respect to what the container is and what it deliver, it’s certainly appears to be a prototype built up by multiple prototypes and a fairly bulky device.

    Any serious energy investment (of this size > $1M) for example that aim to replace any traditional energy solution should normally be considered a long term investment. Let’s say at least > 10 years. With the pace the E-cat is developed, it is likely that there might be a rapid introduction of new successively more compact, efficient and lower price level on E-Cat and alike devices.

    Thus, at present it could be difficult to identify and persuade someone to buy at least the container type of device. However, on the whole for a serious energy operator or large industrial player may buy it for re-engineering purposes this type of investment is peanuts but these may be unwanted customers?

    The pace which Rossi seem to develop (LENR) the E-Cat is certainly impressive. It appears to me that it’s necessary to make the high energy products (type 1MW) more compact and at a reduced price to broaden the applications and ease introduction on the market.

    To make usable products of LENR as a whole is still in a very early phase. A considerable amount of development and refinement is needed for a long time it seems. In spite of this, Rossis last announcement is very impressive but it is kind of paradoxical as he risks to preventing market introduction of some of his early products by the announcement of successive improvement.

    To my mind it’s a pity if a “low temperature” home E-Cat would be delayed because of certification, prevent competitors to reveal secrets or that the early home cats are delayed by the last development or combinations. Identify customers for the industrial plants today may not easy in its present shape but start selling a reasonable effective certified home heater would be no brainier which the amount of pre-orders already show.

    • alexvs

      With all my respect.

      Where you write: “The pace which Rossi seem to develop (LENR) the E-Cat is certainly impressive”.

      I would instead: The pace which Rossi does really and effectively produce something useful is to cry with abundant tears.

      • Barry

        I’m not sure a lot of people realize how long the process of development to market can take. As a self employed person with a lot of wacky ideas, I can relate. I’ve learned to estimate a project, then when I’m done I multiply it by three.

        • jacob

          Barry,i agree with you,also self employed,custom built units,can certainly triple expected time estimates.
          95 % of my income comes from established products and services ,the rest is from tinkering and toying with new innovations,but wherein I put a lot of thought.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        Suppose if Rossi did go on with the demonstrations and making his work public, do you think that:

        a) This would have changed the way the MSM looked at LENR?
        b) The development of the e-cat would have been faster?

        On a: We all know that the LENR effect is real and that in itself should be world news, yet almost no reaction at all in the media. So it may not have done anything.

        On b: I think you can argue that Rossi’s way may be the better and faster way to get LENR introduced in the world. The man tried to do demos of his invention, but got a lot of trouble and unbelieve in return with a lot of people doubting his claims. He would have to go on and do still more demo’s and testing until some people were satisfied but then there would be more people who would not believe so more testing ad nausea.

        Even in publishing his findings and make it reproduceable, it would take time as there is a demonstrated resistance in de scientific world against Cold Fusion and related LENR.
        Add to that the problem of protecting his intellectual property and you can see how he may have come to the conclusion that working in secrecy may be the more beneficial to him.

        So even if I regret that he did not make all his findings available to the public, I can understand why he does what he does. It may be the fastest way possible.

        How would you have solved the conundrum Rossi is in?

  • Chris

    Well, I’m not sure how much it has to do with Zawodny, but NASA already has a reply to Rossi’s Hot CAT:

    http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/WISE/multimedia/pia15815.html

    • jacob

      Nasa’s version of the E-cat hot dog hot air theory.

  • There are nowadays quite flexible robots for manufacturing today:
    http://www.nytimes.com/2012/08/19/business/new-wave-of-adept-robots-is-changing-global-industry.html?_r=1
    One additional interesting remark for sceptics:
    http://youtu.be/N3N3dWlIPUQ?t=3m54s