Zurich E-Cat Conference Thread (Day 1)

I thought I would create an open thread for people who are following the September 8-9th E-Cat Conference in Zurich. It can be a place where people can post significant news and information coming out of the conference. I have made some arrangements to have some conference attendees send me reports, but I don’t know for sure when those will arrive. I’m hoping for some live updates. I know that Sterling Allan of PESN will be there, and so there may be updates from the conference on PESWiki.com.

Here’s a link to a live stream of the conference provided by E-Cat Deutschland: http://www.ecat-deutschland.org/index.php/live-stream, which I hope will provide live video of the proceedings.

An alternative link to the live stream is here — seems more reliable than E-Cat Deutschland’s stream.

I can confirm that I have been sent the validation report that Andrea Rossi has been talking about, and will be discussing at the conference, and I will be free to publish that here on E-Cat World on September 9th.

Rossi said this about the report today:

I do not know, but my paper tomorrow will not be anything special: it will explain a R&D work, with the description of measures made on the Hot Cat: such R&D work will have to be completed, so many other tests will have to be done before having a high temperature industrial application.
We got encouraging results and we will describe them.

Please add news, information and comments below. I’ll add any significant information I come across to this post as the day progresses.

Here’s a link to the program — the conference starts at 2:00 p.m. Zurich time (GMT+1)

Rossi with bodyguards

I asked one of my contacts who is in Zurich what he thought the purpose of the meeting was. His response: “Mainly investors and contributers orientated. My best guess is that rossi wants to get a distribution infrastructure quickly. But I already met other physicists who are just very curious. I hope we get some answers and news too :)”

Rossi the rock star

Rossi has a fan.

As best as I could understand, Rossi said that the ‘Classic’ E-Cat has received safety certification by SGS. Apparently there are other ‘product’ certifications that need to be obtained. Not sure what the difference between the two kinds of certification are.

  • Adam Lepczak

    Frank,
    I understand that you can not talk specifically about the report, but seeing it, does it boost your confidence in Dr. Rossi’s discovery?
    I think that you can answer this question without compromising your NDA…

  • JDP

    Frank,

    If you can publish on Sept 9, did you agree to a timezone ? Kiritimati or Christmas Island is UTC+14. It will be Sept 9 there in a little over 6 hours from now.

  • Wow! What a great scoop. He holds you in very high regard, Frank!

  • Jarvis Cooper

    My 15 year old son wrote a short speech based on the speech in the movie Independence Day.

    Good morning…. Good morning. In less than an hour websites from Zurich and around the world will be launching the largest energy revolution in the history of man kind. Energy, that word should have new meaning for all of us. We can’t be consumed by our oil dependencies anymore we will be united in our common interest perhaps it’s fate that today is the 7 th of September and we will once again be changing the world. Not in medicine or government, but in science we will once again change the ways of modern life it will not be called a”crack pot science” it will not vanish with out a fight it’s going to live on, it’s going to survive today we celebrate E-cat day!!

  • atanguy

    Celani working with a UK company:
    http://www.kresenn.com/#!lenr

    • Omega Z

      stanguy

      Did you click on products.

      Details of the module will be disclosed soon and it should be ready for the market in Q1 2013.

    • Not only are both principals of the company Italian, but they have managed to find an Italian sounding business address in the UK – Frascati Way – in Maidenhead!

      Their ‘power module’ appears to be essentially a long life battery, and should have many uses beyond data centre power supplies. I imagine the Q1/2013 date will prove to be optimistic, as the device will need to get safety certification and a CE mark.

      • Perhaps they can get it through as a new type of hydrogen fuel cell, or possibly a ‘super’ NiMH battery!

        • GreenWin

          I have fond memories of Maidenhead… the village. Great overnight before departing Heathrow. You may be right about positioning these LENR gas-loaded devices as fuel cells. Mills has done this with the CIHT cell and it seems to work. It is after all a cell that produces energy (heat) from the reaction of two substances (metal alloy & H2.)

          • People like Mills and Godes seem to be quite clever at getting obviously anomalous devices past the patent watchdogs. Others should note how its done – nothing wrong with a spot of camouflage.

            Someone I know used to live in Maidenhead but it’s not a place I’d choose to go to otherwise. There are a couple of remnant villages (Bray and Taplow) but they are pretty hemmed in now – maybe it was one of these you stayed at?

    • PersonFromPorlock

      In addition to Kresenn, there are at least *sixteen* other companies doing business at that address. This leads to one of three conclusions:

      1. It is a very large building.

      2. They are very small companies.

      3. It’s a mail drop.

      • Thank you for your helpful input, Person.

        1. is correct – it is a large new 4-storey office building with shops below, occupying a corner site. If Kresenn are manufacturing in the UK, that must be carried out elsewhere.

        • My bad. 5a is a rather more modest building across the road. Around sixteen/eighteen 2-room offices would probably be about right, going on the exterior.

          • AB

            Who needs bodyguards when you’ve got Transaltec making a conference for you? So far the conference has killed the small amount of credibility that Rossi has accrued over time. Without credibility there’s no danger for Rossi.

          • Ged

            What in the world are you talking about?

          • Steve B

            however If he skrews up badly the Mafia may after him

          • Ged

            Only if he took mob money and they want it back. But this isn’t the godfather.

      • Lu

        Uta Stechal is speaking now. I notice no bruises or black eyes…. She has a translator but the audio is difficult to hear. Looks like the program is running about 1/2 hour late.

        • Ged

          Saw some graph things too, but couldn’t make them out or what they were about :(. Audio is too low quality to even follow the English reliably, what little of that there is.

  • Renzo

    Frank, since you have the report could you answer a little question: is the name of the testing organization disclosed or it doesn’t ?

    1) Yes
    2) No
    3) I cannot answer now
    4) I don’t want to spoil the next episode

    thanks

    • Renzo

      another link for the live stream:
      http://tinyurl.com/ch7sepz

    • Renzo

      With the last informations by Cures/Fioravanti I guess the correct answer is 2

      • Martin

        If so, in my opinion the report ist near worthless.

        • It is your opinion that is next to worthless.

      • Renzo

        If you believe (as I do) that Rossi is legitimate the report will be extremely interesting. The difference is that the debate will continue as before

        • Luca Salvarani

          Ciao Renzo

          Ho provato a scucire qualche info a Cures ma ormai non è più cosi loquace… Se davvero presentasse un report molto “sottostimato” un po mi dispiacerebbe: perchè non far sapere a tutti i grandissimi risultati che si sono raggiunti? Che bisogno c’è di sottovalutarli? Penso che lui personalmente ne vada fiero quindi mi auguro che li sbatta in faccia agli snakes..

          • Renzo

            E’ frustrante non poter ancora festeggiare nè poter sbattere un bel report in faccia agli snakes. Mi piacerebbe far conoscere questa storia e discutere delle applicazioni pratiche ma, senza una prova conclusiva, è inutile, perchè ogni volta si finisce col discutere delle solite ambiguità.

            Comunque la saga è ormai alla fine, o col test di una università o con gli acquirenti pubblici dei megagattoni.

            A te non dispiace un pò? Questi 20 mesi sono stati il miglior sceneggiato dal vivo che ho mai visto. Comunque lo spettacolo sarà molto interessante anche dopo. 😀

          • Luca Salvarani

            La pensiamo esattamente allo stesso modo, e non solo sull’e-cat a quanto pare!

          • barty

            Now it’s 14:00 (2 pm) GMT+1, and still no live stream.

          • barty

            NOW THE STREAM IS ONLINE!!
            Bad audio quality, but picture is okay!

          • admin

            Live stream up now

          • barty

            The screen with the “universe” background looks like the whole TransAltec AG smells like…

          • Andre Blum

            (1) To everyone reacting disappointed about what they are seeing today: did you pay attention to the program at all? What else than this did you expect, based on that program?

            (2) Can someone enlighten me why e-Cat resellers (as seen on the eCat australia website, and now again from this German speaking guy) keep referring to solar energy as going along nicely with e-Cats? I totally don’t get that idea.

          • Ged

            1) the exciting stuff on the program isn’t even until 1 pm Central Standard Time, today. (if anyone here speaks the languages being used, as I don’t)

            2) Probably as a supplement to the fact solar power only works during the day, so what do you do at night? The E-cat would make a good way to fix up the difference at night. That or, they are thinking of using solar power to power the E-cat drive.

          • GreenWin

            Ged, unsurprisingly e-cat resellers are also resellers of alternative energy systems i.e. wind, solar, micro-hydro etc. They do not want to jeopardize their customer base with a new product that could make current customers look dumb. So, yeah, if you have a business (clearly few here do) you don’t undermine it with a new product intro.

            Actually the comments here indicate how far from the real world of products and economies many people are.

          • artefact

            Cool, Rossi has bodyguards 🙂

          • SteveB

            sure, he must be protected against the snipers of big oil

          • Alexvs

            Who is speaking right now?

          • barty

            Seems to be someone who want’s to sell his books. He’s promoting them.

          • jedslater

            Yeah! another book salesman is just what we need 🙂

          • Ged

            Guys, this isn’t a scientific conference, this is a business/investor conference. We’ve known that all along. If anything scientifically interesting or validation wise is going to be stated, it’ll likely be during that 8 pm their time, 2 pm EST/1 pm CST presentation today.

            If I have missed some sort of huge, blatant falsehood or disinformation, please point me to it, as I did just get here and could have missed much. So far in all the comments I’ve read, I haven’t seen a single unexpected thing. I am honestly confused by some folks here.

          • AB

            Adolf Schneider’s talk was terrible and unprofessional. He is owner of Transaltec and organizer of this conference.

            He frequently mentioned his four other “free energy devices”, talked about Tesla & the FBI, cited Zawodny as proof that LENR is real (remember Zawodny’s efforts to make it clear that he does not endorse the ecat?), showed an Italian TV show on Rossi (in Italian, no subtitles or translation), abused some of Prof. Petterson’s cautiously optimistic and reasonable comments as validation. I didn’t watch the whole thing so there is probably plenty more of these.

            Are you sure you don’t see anything wrong with that?

          • Ged

            I didn’t see his background/overview talk as I was asleep, but he isn’t important to me anyways; he isn’t Rossi and his talks were obviously just meaningless fluff as per any standard conference opening.

            None the less, I do see wrong about the “free energy devices” if he talked about such. I don’t see anything wrong with mentioning Zawodney as “proof” of LENR being real, which it is, and would only be wrong if he said it was specifically about the e-cat (which you did not say he said). Don’t see anything wrong about the Italian TV show. Don’t know what the Prof Petterson stuff is about, so you’ll have to clarify.

            So, that leaves with 1 thing wrong, 2 things ok/right, 1 thing unknown.

            How is this so terrible as you are making it sound? I must continue to fully disagree with you.

          • Andre Blum

            The only thing Ged and myself are saying is that it is not unexpected. This is what was in the program.

            These are the guys that have had the guts to do business with Rossi. And we all know Rossi is not easy to deal with. It is disappointing but nothing new that Rossi has attracted no big players, only private/ small&medium business entrepreneurs or wannabe-entrepreneurs, usually from related (heating, alternative energy) industries, to be his licensees. Most of them will have no experience talking on conferences like these.

            Also: Knowing Rossi, he has left these guys almost as much in the dark as he has left us. This is their first attempt for a gettogether to share knowledge, and probably also an attempt to tickle Rossi into releasing more info. They are trying to bring in their personal backgrounds, hoping it will be of help to others.

            This was not expected to be anything spectacular.

          • Jim Johnson

            “this is a business/investor conference”

            +1

            “These are the guys that have had the guts to do business with Rossi.”

            +1

            “This was not expected to be anything spectacular.”

            I dunno, it’s pretty spectacular that *investors* who have *enough guts to do business with Rossi* would put themselves out there like this.

            Which points to the idea that the main point of this conference was *FUND RAISING* for the Tier 1 investors to attract Tier 2 investors.

          • GreenWin

            Ged, the disparaging posters are here to ridicule, accuse, criticize prior to investigation. It is a first time convention of new sales people prior to a product launch. Darn! It is doubtful many critics have any product planning or manufacturing experience.

            The number and quality of negative comments indicates a preponderance of pathoskeps (why are they watching?) apparently disturbed by the commercialization of LENR. What’s new?

          • Ged

            I have been to so many presentations, and given so many presentations myself, I just have a different perspective on how presentations work — their purpose and content and limitations — especially when in an overall framework like a conference, than most people will have.

            AB is one of the great posters here; he isn’t trying to ridicule or deride for such in and of itself, I think. I may be at odds with him on this, but I fully respect his opinion. I just think he’s utterly mistaken in the import he is giving one fluff filled opening presentation (that wasn’t even that bad from the account he just gave above) by a name we don’t care about — and think the claim that this affects Rossi’s credibility is completely facetious. It’s like missing the mountain for a small tack.

            So far, it’s all been as expected. Even the description of Schneider’s presentation by AB is exactly what we expected from him.

            But you’re also right that some of the posts here have been disparaging for disparaging’s sake. And that is also completely expected.

          • GreenWin

            I agree Ged. I should probably expect negative reactions from people more tied to the science than the commercial side. Marketing departments are often at odds with engineering. Engineers cringe at the corny ways marketing people promote a technology, and marketers roll their eyes at engineering presentations. Such is the drama of life.

          • Ged

            That is absolutely true. Good to have that reminder of those two different perspectives.

          • admin

            My contact says, “Dr Hans Weber. Distinguished swiss physician. From calometry area. Interesting. Knows hagelstein personally from his work.”

          • Steve B

            Weber´s talk was very general and theoretical. Cannot answer questions related to the e-cat. Indeed it looks like Weber wants to promote his books in the first place. Questions related to copper isotopes avoided and says Rossi would answer later.

          • Ged

            The validation report talk is at 1 pm CST. I guess they are under NDA till then? I guess we really have to wait and see about that.

            Or copper isotopes haven’t been investigated anymore. I’m pretty sure the field has advanced in such a way that copper isotopes are agreed to have been spurious results, and it’s all hydrogen-hydrogen fusion primarily, not nickel-hydrogen.

  • Renzo

    other comments this morning by Cures/Fioravanti

    “The report is not signed by Rossi. Who, moreover, after some kicking and screaming, left ensuring that he will behave as a normal and accommodating person, eh.eh. ”

    “Rossi is well-intentioned to start testing soon after returning from Zurich. He’s had enough too. We can only hope that there isn’t anyone who will make jump his nerves on purpose. It takes very little.”

    • Omega Z

      Thanks Renzo

      That makes a little more sense then I was getting from Google Trans. Sounds as tho Entities are reining him in not to say or disclose more then he’s supposed to.

      • Steve B

        posting from Gerd N. in facebook
        “Hello friends, we have problems with the live-stream!! We want to make it ok!! Please give the information to the other!! We hope, we can make the problems away!! Please wait!!!”
        Why am I not surprised ?

        • barty

          Gerd Neumanns website is offline too at the moment.

  • Omega Z

    To ALL….

    I would ask that people Please refrain from asking Frank for details. Even the Tiniest little tidbit. Rossi providing advance info to Frank is a matter of privilege of Trust & Integrity.

    • Good comment, Omega, agreed.

    • Martin

      If he is worth Trust (and I think so), he would not answer anyway. The point is, just wait for questions until tomorrow, when the report is published.

      • DaveS

        Any live tweets from the conference?

        • Andre Blum

          have not seen them. There is, however, a chat window in the second video link Frank provided.

          • Karl

            I’ve seen that one. It seemed for some time there came the usual negative childish comments about this conference as we see also see among the skeptics. It is quite difficult to follow though because of the sound quality and unless you can follow German fluently. Let’s wait and judge. To me is seems to be quite serious stuff.

          • The sound quality is typical for a conference with an audience full of engineers and scientists 🙁

    • Ivan Mohorovicic

      If secrecy is that important he shouldn’t have written about it before the right time, I think.

    • Agreed, Omega – it wouldn’t occur to me to ask. Rossi seems to be downplaying expectations anyway (did he ever promise anything on this occasion? – I can’t remember him doing so.)

      • Robyn

        I agree that he is downplaying expectations. But as to whether he did ever promise anything on this occasion, I think you would have to say yes.

        In a comment by “Ecco Liberation” September 4th, 2012 at 10:09 AM (JONP) Rossi was asked if there would be “Disclosure on September 8th (during the Zurich conference) of a validation by a third party entity (private company?) already performed earlier this Summer.”

        Rossi answered “yes”.

        Presumably disclosure of a third party validation includes the disclosure of that third party, AND their report.

        That seems like a lot. But that doesn’t seem to be the case anymore. I hope I am misreading his statement. I’ll check back tonight.

        • Thanks. Yes that does look like a promise…. we’ll find out if its a dud quite soon.

    • GreenWin

      A fascinating number of new “skeps” have suddenly, mysteriously appeared here with rather dour and nasty things to say about a conference of salesmen. Any thoughts Peter??

      • I’m sure its purely a coincidence GreenWin. Curious though – the same thing happened during the NIWeek thing. But I’m sure that was coincidence too.

  • Sorry if repetition… http://www.everyday-feng-shui.de/feng-shui-news/e-cat-deutschland-neue-website-online/ has some scanned 3-page report on visit of Inge and Adolf Schneider (Switzerland) in Bologna in February 2012 (in German). Nothing really new, but as an anecdotal detail their camera lens got fuzzy because of the E-cat’s steam. And curiously it says COP 1:8 rather than 1:6. Probably a typo, in two places though.

    • barty

      The “NET Journal” was founded by Adolf Schneiders wife Inge Schneider.
      So it’s not independent in any way.

      I, as german, never heard of the NET Journal. Seems not to be very popular.

    • rainer

      hello – i just readet the programm of the conference .
      These conference seems to be a selling-show without any scientific backround .

      Don’t be to dissappointet when the conference doesent give the informations that you’re waiting for .

      excuse my bad english .
      Warm regards from a lenr believer from belgium – europe .

      • Renzo

        It is only a meeting of the licensee, it was never meant to be more than that. The expectations are high only for the third party report to be presented

        • Martin

          Probably a third party report without a third party being named.

          • barty

            this would be the “worst case” 🙁
            I hope the third party is independent and named!

            Otherwise the “big unknown” who validated the device could also be Rossi himself.

          • Ivan_cev

            A third party report with no third party, a typical Rossi circus. Brilliant.

          • So far I remember, SGS Milano, is a well famed company ! We are waiting, both of us, for the contain of this report.
            Let’s talk later on.
            Warm regards,
            J.C. de BIEVRE

          • Renzo

            It seems it will be the case indeed 🙁

          • How should we understand Cures’ sentence “The report is not signed by Rossi” (from your post today)? If it’s not signed by him then who… maybe a fourth party rather than third 🙂

          • Renzo

            the meaning is that the report is the work of a third party and was not done or signed by Rossi himself. The problem is that the third party doesn’t want to be named yet.

            From what was hinted we can expect a report that is far more through and complete than anything we’ve seen in the previous efforts. But in the end it is again a question of how much you trust Rossi or you are skeptical.

        • Renzo

          Daniele Passerini has written a comment that I report here:

          “I think you’d do better to keep the champagne to cool a little longer. I am confident that Rossi will follow Cures advice, but I do not think, however, that the meeting in Zurich, of itself, will change anything … National Instruments and Celani have done, are doing and will do, a lot to push the LENR on the pedestal of mainstream science. For the E-Cat the turning point will come when Siemens will make an outing and especially when there will be companies around to tell their satisfaction with the E-Cat technology products that they have purchased and put into operation, that will ensure an happy ending! But even more the happy beginning of a new era. Only then the skeptics in good faith will remain FINALLY speechless, unknowingly used as pawn, but especially the pseudo-skeptics who have economic interest to obstruct and slow down as much as possible Rossi and who disparage him knowing full well that the E-Cat works.”

  • jedslater

    Until we have a nay or Yay, we have to wait!! but I have a feeling that we won’t get any confirmation from a 3rd part.

  • artefact

    Stream starts..

  • h_corey

    The link is live for me

    • jedslater

      Me too! but the sound is terrible!!

      • h_corey

        looks like Sterling is on stage

        • barty

          Yes, he translated into englisch what Schneider said in german.

    • barty

      Schneider is saying that on his Homepage (Transaltec AG) are 5 technologies he want’s to place into the market.

      And Rossis e-cat is at first position/highest priority.

    • barty

      They just said there is also a television team present.

      Currently there are some welcome speechs and thanks to some special visitors/presenters like sterlin allen, andrea rossi and so on.

    • barty

      Andrea Rossi entered the room with two bodyguards, LOL

      He’s now sitting in front of the camera.

  • artefact

    They have press and TV there

  • barty

    First presentation is starting now!

    • barty

      Ahhh, no, they use the zawodny nasa video about LENR as a confirmation the ecat is working 🙁
      So much unserious this event 🙁

      • Andrew Macleod

        You have to understand that some of the people there are not scientists. The NASA slides are very basic and gives the layman a good idea where this tech can go and what it can do.

    • barty

      Now I know why Gerd Neumanns e-cat Deutschland website content is so incompetent…the whole TransAltec AG licence Group is incompetent 🙁

      Adolf Schneider is AGAIN refering to the zawodney video, and said it’s a confirmation for cold fusion.

      Now he’s showing this video with german translation.

      • Adam Lepczak

        Stupid stupid stupid…
        Presenting slides prepared by the competitor (NASA is a competitor according to Dr. Rossi) is a major business NO NO…

        • Ged

          Not necessarily. NASA is -not- a competitor. I don’t see they putting out a commercial device. On top of that, government agencies don’t market commercial products.

        • Jim Johnson

          Look at the conference as a *fund raiser*. Tier 1 investors need capital too, or they will be overrun by Siemens, General Electric, Exxon, etc. Best way to get it? Stand up in public, put your reputation on the line, and try to be persuasive with the best evidence NDAs will allow. Orchestrated? Of course! Talk about competitors? Of course! Because without competition there *is no market*. Chest thumping? Of course! Because they want potential investors to see that they are as substantial as they can make themselves appear to be. Amateurish? Well, to what degree? These aren’t Fortune 500 types, after all. But they managed to get themselves to Zurich…

          • Renzo

            Fulvio Fabiani now speaking, he presented himself as one of Andrea Rossi engineers

          • Ged

            Interesting, bumped him up from last of this block. Unless the stream didn’t show the other two presentations…

          • Renzo

            It is probably a change of schedule. Rossi and Holm will speak later

          • Ged

            Ok good, they are the ones I want to see.

          • Andre Blum

            I understand from Frank, who is in the lenrconnect chat box, that he will publish the report right after this presentation. (not tomorrow).

          • admin

            Yes, that’s correct, Andre. It’s already tomorrow in many parts of the world 🙂

          • Hampus

            Thank you so much frank for being so fast 🙂 We have all been waiting for this soo long!

          • Ged

            I am Very much looking forward to it now!

          • GreenWin

            That will be a great relief to my eyes and strained hearing faculties!

          • Renzo

            it’s not clear from photo but isn’t Fabiani one of the supposed bodyguards?

          • Ged

            Looks like it might be. Those two “bodyguards” also look like brothers. In fact, twins even. So, they may simply be engineers.

            edit: funny how easy it is to judge a book by its cover, calling them bodyguards cause they are persons of larger disposition 😛

            Edit 2: it’s definitely the “bodyguard”. When he turns around and we can see the back of his head and neck folds, there’s no mistaking him for anyone else.

          • Renzo

            And now for something completely different, it’s the time of our hero

          • Ged

            Now that we know the “bodyguards” aren’t, and just are engineers, one being Fulvio Fabiani… Who is that “fan” guy XD? He came right up on the stage!

          • Renzo

            he doesn’t look italian, I suppose he’s one of Schneider’s team!

          • Ged

            Darn, video contrast too poor to see what’s on the screen.

          • Ged

            Rossi has just said SGS has certified the low temp E-cat! Safety certification is complete! So that leak was accurate in the end, how amusing.

            Edit: Dang it, now he’s talking in italian. Gosh blast it.

          • … but for now only for safety, functionality test will come later if I understood correctly (Edit: Ok, Ged said that already…)

          • Ged

            Think so, thus the emphasis on the university/military colab to analyze long term hot cat performance.

            Still, safety certification requires the device was active and running to be tested. Just won’t look at hard performance data in a scientific way; just make sure it doesn’t do something dangerous.

          • Ged

            Err, by “it’s” I mean Fulvio Fabiani is. Now for the star of the show!

          • Renzo

            Plumbing takes strong arms 😉

          • Sanjeev

            Certification by SGS makes the Ecat 99% real. This is a great news, perhaps most important since Oct 2011 demo.

            Rossi told that he will not reveal the names of independent testers. So its a bit disappointing.

          • Ged

            He won’t say the name of the independent testers currently testing the hot cat, but he just dropped the names of the SGS person and a Bologna professor.. Missed them both though.

          • The Bologna physicist was David Bianchini (I’m not 100% sure of the first name)

          • Renzo

            He said he’s authorized to reveal 2 names of people who partecipated in the testing, one is Davide Bianchini who we already know about and who made radiation measures, the other one is engineer “Penon” (if I understand it correctly). The other parties involved don’t want to be named until the end of all tests.

          • Ged

            There’s that Hot Cat picture we got leaked by Cures 😀

            Edit: The unnamed people are those currently testing the hot cat, from my understanding.

          • Steve Bannister

            I believe Dr. Horst Eckardt, a close collaborator with Dr. Myron Evans, is present at this conference. If so, he should be discussing what I believe will become the preferred theoretical foundation for LENR. I do not see him on the agenda, but if anyone has other knowledge, please let us know.

          • artefact

            he now has a LENR theory which he sent to the Zürich conference.
            “Completed ECE Fermion Theory of LENR for Zurich Conference”
            http://drmyronevans.wordpress.com/2012/09/08/22710-completed-ece-fermion-theory-of-lenr-for-zurich-conference/

          • Steve Bannister

            precisely

          • Andrew Macleod

            Although I don’t understand most of what is written. If I understand correctly this prof has a working theory for lenr that fits into a universal field theory that replaces the standard model? And he is highly regarded in the scientific community? And he is working with Rossi? That’s awsome news!

          • Steve Bannister

            Correct on the theory, which has so many important implications, of which LENR is just one. Highly regarded depends on who is speaking. I have been following his work for over six years; I have forced myself through enough of the math to be comfortable with it; his theory far out-explains the standard model, or strings or just about anything around in mainstream physics. But, he is treated as a heretic by those whose funding would be threatened, and by other small minds. So in a way, he is a perfect theorist for LENR.

          • Ryan

            If anyone knows how to get ahold of this guy, they might tell him about Yuri Milner. He’s started up a new theoretical physics prize and has already given out millions to a small number of physicists with interesting theories, even if not proven. Here’s a link with more info: http://singularityhub.com/2012/08/29/tech-billionaire-milner-aims-to-accelerate-progress-by-bankrolling-science/

          • Steve Bannister

            He and his collaborators and supporters are aware of the Milner prize. I think it’s now a matter of finding the supporter(s) best placed to nominate.

          • Ged

            New picture, but can’t make it out exactly…

            Something about weighing components and “charge” or “change”?

          • Weighs 4.3 kg

          • Ged

            Oh man, so many new pictures flashed past. I think I hear them (Rossi reading from the report) talking about taking the mass of the active “charge” (I guess they mean the active material) by total mass of the device minus all the inactive masses… and then evaluating this mass before and after running the e-cat?

          • Sanjeev

            Yes, before and after weights to rule out any hidden fuel.

          • Ged

            Very important and vital point.

          • Ged

            Active ‘charge’ is nickel, catalyst, and some material I missed the name of that holds the hydrogen.

            Edit: temperature controlled hydrogen storage by a molecular compound. Something that came out years ago, and there’s a variety of those compounds out there. Wonder which one this is.

            Edit 2: 1 gram of this mix can give 83,000 MWh?

          • Ged

            Resin(?) material that coats(or makes up the shell?) the Hot Cat can take up to 2120 C? Didn’t quite make that out, but important info. Well above the temp of nickel melting and reaction cessation. Definitely an important part of safety.

            Edit: Ok, the paint on the hot cat can radiate 1200 C and is made by a company that makes such paints for the engines of jet fighters.

          • 1200 C, not 2120. They had the black paint specificially designed by some company that makes such paints for jet engines. (Edit: OK, Ged said the same.)

          • Ged

            Yeah, I originally heard wrong the first time he was talking about it XD. Sometimes it’s hard following the audio; I just totally misheard that whole paragraph of it being first mentioned.

          • artefact

            and the cost for the color of one cylinder is ~1000 Euro

          • Ged

            So pricy.. but important for proper radiation of heat at that high a level. At least we know hot cats won’t be cheap at this point in time, if it’s ~$2000 to paint one with its necessary dissapaitor material.

            So a 1 MW plant made out of 100 of them would be $200,000 just for the paint alone.

          • But paint would presumably not be needed if heat is removed another way (e.g. by coolant flow).

          • Ged

            Good point, Peter. Very good point.

          • Sanjeev

            Ged, that paint is there only for measurement purpose. The heat output was measured by a camera, so a black body is needed.

            I could understand this much for now, but I’m sure that special paint is not necessary.

          • Renzo

            the same as told by Cures

          • Francesco CH

            Fabio Peron

          • admin

            Actually, Penon.

          • Francesco CH

            Thanks Frank!!!

          • GreenWin

            Bianchini is under contract to University Bologna as a “Technical Expert in Radiation Protection.” He appears to be the guy who can certify the lack of harmful radiation.

          • Ged

            Awesome, we must look up info on him after this is done.

          • admin

            Yes, that’s him. He was on an early video that Steve Krivit shot when he went to Bologna.

          • Ash

            Bianchini is a student a UniBo, not a professor or staff member. :/

          • admin
          • GreenWin

            Ash – you are wrong. Bianchini is not listed as a student but may be a grad student. He holds a MSc. degree and IS on paid University Bologna staff (I have the payroll document) as “Technical Expert in Radiation Protection.”

      • Ged

        He’s not wrong to make that association. He could be greatly overstating it, but he isn’t wrong to make it, as it is indeed a very positive one. We have better info now from more sources than just NASA, but he could well be not up to steam presentation wise; or mentioning Celani/other groups isn’t something anyone wants to do.

        How is this incompetence? Seems like a normal presentations so far. I am perplexed by everyone’s reactions. What have I missed XD?

    • barty

      It seems the whole congress is only a self-dramatisation of TransAltec AG.

      I’ll stop watching the live stream now. I better invest this time sitting in the sun and drinking cold lemonade.

      • cleanthinking

        Good decision! It’s crucial…

        • GreenWin

          From comments here it sounds like the orchestra is playing the score perfectly. A well orchestrated drama makes for great entertainment.

          • jfab

            All I can say is LOL, how pathetic. Rossi is insane! “The bigger the lie…”

          • Ged

            What makes you say that? No one so far has mentioned a single unreasonable thing going on at the conference. But I could be far behind.

          • You almost certainly don’t know any more than the rest of us about the proceedings, so what exactly are you referring to? Or perhaps its just more important for you to make empty negative noises and indulge in a bit of 10-year-old name calling, than to keep quiet until you actually know something? (I apologise if you actually are 10 years old, by the way.)

            You’re beginning to sound more than a bit desperate, jfab. Chill out.

    • Wolf

      Seems to be as ridiculous as I ‘feared’ it would be…

  • Alexvs

    I surrender!! Till tomorrow.

  • AB

    So far this conference is looking like the usual Rossi PR fiasco.

    • Ged

      I have no idea why you are saying what you are saying; and usually you are a reasonable guy. I am watching the steam now, and people are giving a ton of applause. But I can’t understand what is being said. Is it somehow weird stuff being stated? Am I missing something? I don’t see anything unexpected going on.

      The talk about the validation and such isn’t until 1 pm CST.

  • Marius

    Frau Stechl is off the program?

    • Andre Blum

      no. speaking now.

    • Marius

      Ah she’s on now, just 40 minutes behind schedule

  • PaulSmith

    Glad to see sturdy German body guards protecting the future Noble Prize Winner!

  • Marc Cleiren

    According to Rossi, it *is* SGS that is doing the safety certification..

    • Ged

      That has completed the safety certification, actually, according to his word.

    • Renzo

      I missed that phrase!

    • Martin

      OK, who calls or emails SGS and asks if this is true?

    • Andre Blum

      like I said earlier: it was denied, so it must be true 🙂

  • GreenWin

    From what I can glean from the live stream:

    “Classic” e-cat has received safety certification from SGS-Swiss company. More certifications for other variations (hitemp?) e-cats are in progress. Report prepared by Nuclear Engineer, at SGS?? And Dr. David ??? physicist from University Bologna…

    • Ged

      Heard all that too. Didn’t catch the names!
      One thing they were evaluating it for was radiation.

      The SGS people ran the e-cat device by themselves and did their tests on it as they chose, is another point that was stated but easy to miss.

    • artefact

      Dr. David Biancini from Bologna

      • Francesco CH

        BiancHini

    • Francesco CH

      David Bianchini

    • GreenWin

      AR did name both the SGS Engineer, AND the UniBologna Physicist who tested the Classic ecat for Safety Certification. Italian speakers may help with both names…

    • Sanjeev

      Yes, significant info.
      Two names are better than none.

      • Hampus

        Omg it’s happened!! Proof!!!

  • Francesco CH

    Ok,

    Rossi said that the professors were able to determine the nuclear nature of the process by measuring the consumption of hydrogen. Compared by the amount of the energy released during the process, hydrogen consumption was so small that chemical reactions could be excluded at all.

    • Ged

      That was the weight measurements he was reading the report was talking about earlier, it seems.

      • Renzo

        I think this is the other engineer named by Rossi, but I didn’t understand exactly what his part was: http://tinyurl.com/8e8a566

        EDIT: from the audio it’s not clear if name is Penon or Peron, the one I linked has an excellent cv to make such measurements but I’m not sure

        • Ged

          we need a transcript of this whole talk. So many details are hard to nail due to this audio quality, and the amount of information being released.

          • He said “thermal chamber”, but maybe he meant “thermal camera”

          • Ged

            I couldn’t follow that point either. Whatever it was, it was 3 cm away from something else in accordance to the manufacturer’s directions.

            Edit: Something about windows now, two of them, so camera sounds likely.

            Edit 2: Definitely thermal chamber being imaged by a thermal camera. The image is very interesting, surprisingly uniform in the long axis, but definitely an interesting profile.

          • Ged

            Measurements were showing 820 C or so temperatures. The uniform long axis is very good as it means there’s no glaring hot spots, and the reaction is well dispersed throughout the reactant material. Interesting to understand the slight gradient in the short (vertical) axis, but that might be from the curvature of the steel cylinder.

          • Ged

            Also, before anyone misunderstands, by uniform I’m seeing there isn’t huge hot spots that are hundred or more C different from surrounding areas. Such hot spots would be bad and keep a reaction from being stable (also, we don’t see any hot spot from resistive electrical heating, so this is a uniform reaction throughout the device that swamps that out).

          • Antonella

            camera means chamber in italian.

        • If I understood and remember correctly he was an SGS safety engineer who certified the industrial units for safety.

        • Renzo

          the other option is this one, a consultant engineer but I can’t find any info about him
          http://www.paginegialle.it/abano-terme-pd/consulenza/penon-fabio

          • Renzo

            found his name in the order of engineers, ph.d in nuclear engineering in Bologna: http://tinyurl.com/cz9ykzb

          • Ged

            Very nice, that may well be the guy.

      • Francesco CH

        Rossi said that steel used is not AISI 316 as erroneously written in the report. It is AISI 310.

        • Ged

          Melting temp of stainless steel AISI 310 is 1454 °C

          Melting point of 316 is 1370-1400, so 310 is clearly superior for this application.

        • Ged

          Talking about the July hot cat tests now. 130-900 C temperature range, 2% measurement margin of error.

          • Andrew Macleod

            The ability to “dial” in a specific temp is great news. They must really know what’s going on in these reactors.

        • Ged

          Talking about frequency waves to drive resistance? Dang, having trouble following this at the moment. Something about high frequency waves not as effective, and 2 months still to go of testing this… frequency thing that’s going on…?

          • GreenWin

            The current feeding the drive resister is sometimes driven at frequencies from 5Hz to 50kHz+ – This is claimed source of NASA’s Plasmons for “heavy” electrons in the WL theory.

            Looks like Rossi is delivering just what he said he would. The written version of the report will give everyone plenty to scrap about. I expect the first attacks aimed at the professors and engineer authors of the report. We have Blacklight’s CIHT 6 recent validations as proof of the modus operendi.

          • Francesco CH

            It is a matter regarging some interferences generated by the electricity passing through the resistors. They resolved the problem by inserting a variac before the resistors.

            Not a big issue, but they fixed it just two days ago. Complete measurements released within two months.

    • It is noteworthy that parts were weighed before assembly, and overall that it wasn’t measured as a “black box” (OK, it’s black) but we are told that it was taken apart by the testers/professors.

      • Ged

        Yep! He’s reading the report, and it states the E-cat was disassembled after running to verify each component was the same and to take the weight of it all after energy generation.

        Edit: 2.5 grams was lost due to dust loss during operation and hydrogen consumption.

        3.4 grams lost from hot cat cylinder due to partial melting/surface loss of steel?

        “it is particularly, particular….. hot” XD

  • Ged

    3.66 KWh in max, but missed what he said came out, as calculated by the blackbody radiative equation (which will give a very conservative estimate! as radiation isn’t the only energy transfer going on, with both convection and conduction siphoning off heat energy).

    • Ged

      Minimum COP of 2.5 using most conservative calculations possible, using several independent methods.

      Edit: This is apparently part of the report, or was during the certification process?

      Edit 2: did the calculation, at a COP 2.5, that’s 9.15 KW out. I did hear him say 9, but that’s all I caught earlier when he mentioned the power out. Certainly not the rosiest way to present the data, and thus strengthens it greatly.

      • admin

        No self sustain mode used in this high temperature test. Rossi mentioned problems still to solve with self sustain.

        • Ged

          Very interesting indeed!

        • artefact

          he said something about obstacles by the certifier

          • Ged

            It was stated awhile ago that the certifier says no to self sustaining from a safety point of view, not theoretical.

        • GreenWin

          I can imagine a NG driven high temp “hotcat” would be very interesting to the existing energy companies. It’s a hybrid and new energy supporters love hybrids (Toyota’s sold 3 million)

    • Francesco CH

      ! ! ! ROSSI EFFECT ! ! !

      *The “Rossi Effect” is verified*

      *The Power Source can not be of chemical nature*

      • Renzo

        On the Ragone chart the 600° ecat is out of scale 😀

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ragone_chart

      • Ged

        This is indeed a watershed event. All the leaks have been confirmed now. The claims of Rossi have been backed up to the great majority. The data was stated and shown straight, no dressing it up, even when it wasn’t that favorable (COP 2.5 minimum isn’t the COP 6 the low temp E-cat can do).

        It is no longer a question of if Rossi is the real deal or not. Now, the only question remains is the applicability of the technology (is it useful if stuck at COP 2.5?), its cost effectiveness, and other such market/utilitarian details.

        • Wolf

          As I missed most of it: How was the data verified? Who did the measurements? I read something about SGS? Is there proof of this fact?

          • Ged

            Yep. A lot of the stuff here was Rossi reading from the report itself; which Frank is going to drop us (he just read pages 17 and some 18 a moment ago). The names of several people involved were also given.

            There were many pictures including thermal imaging you missed and other data presented.

            We have only to ask SGS directly, or get the certification number (which I think Rossi just read a second ago) and cross check to fully verify.

          • Wolf

            Thanks. Did he tell what type of certification SGS did? Just a safety certification? Or performance certification also?

          • Ged

            Safety certification I believe (so claims of COP are not fully investigated!), however performance data was presented as part of the safety test it seems, from what I gather from the talk (we’ll have to see to make sure when Frank puts it up). The machine was run independently by SGS, fully disassembled before and after being run. SGS ran the machine to its max to make sure it would be safe (can’t certify the safety of a toaster unless you plug it in and make toast 😉 ).

            Edit: The thing to keep in mind is the talk is interlaced between the SGS stuff and the currently ongoing Hot Cat validation (performance) tests. And I may not have de-interlaced the two correctly at all points.

          • Ged

            hah, looks like the report we get is just part of the ongoing Hot Cat validation one. We’ll have to go to SGS specifically to see if they can verify the claims about them, and if they are willing to release the safety report if true.

          • LENR’s success would likely totally transform the basis of our global economy from one assuming scarcity for one assuming abundance. When you have cheap energy (or even just cheap computing), almost everything else can become cheap via substitution (e.g. cheap energy means recycling almost anything is easy). So much of the perceived need for maintaining secrecy, for seeking patent protection, and even for finding investors for the e-Cat might just evaporate if more people realized that. I suggested that in a note to Andrea Rossi on January 2011, a copy of which is here:
            http://peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Economic_Transformation
            “The key point here is that breakthrough clean energy technologies will change the very nature of our economic system. They will shift the balance between four different interwoven economies we have always had (subsistence, gift, planned, and exchange). Inventors who have struggled so hard in a system currently dominated by exchange may have to think about the socioeconomic implications of their invention in causing a permanent economic phase change. A clean energy breakthrough will probably create a different balance of those four economies like toward greater local subsistence and more gift giving (as James P. Hogan talks about in Voyage From Yesteryear). So, to focus on making money in the old socioeconomic paradigm (like by focusing on restrictive patents) may be very ironic, compared to freely sharing a great gift with the world that may change the overall dynamics of our economy to the point where money does not matter very much anymore. …”

            The flip side of that coin is, if we don’t make the social phase change to an abundance oriented economy, then all this advanced technology of abundance would make fearsome weapons (e.g. e-Cat powered lasers or plasma beams). That would be a great irony if we then use e-Cat powered laser beams to fight over oil wells, water supplies, food, and even land and such. That would be ironic because cheap energy makes desalinating sea water easy, it makes creating fertilizer from the air easy, and it can support routine travel into space and the creation of space habitats from the asteroids and lunar material. We are going to need a social, economic, and even spiritual transformation if we are to survive this new energy technology and thrive in a healthy way with all the possibilities it would bring. Although, much the same is also true for several other technologies from nanotech to robotics to biotech — all of which could produce either universal abundance or universal oblivion, a theme Bucky Fuller talked about long ago.

          • Tony76

            The only claimants who see the big picture are the Pirelli School students and perhaps Celani. The rest are blinded by “making money in the old socioeconomic paradigm”.

            Good post, to the heart of the matter.

        • Francesco CH

          This is well explained by Cures and Rossi.

          Basically the professors were EXTREMELY conservatives in measurements, at the point of “self-castration”, just to avoid any possible objections.

          However, real COP is higher. Precise measurements concerning COP will follow suit in the future.

          First: verify the existence of the effect

          Second: determine the size of the effect

  • artefact

    In the report I see all the shown pictures by Rossi.
    The leaked picture from cures has not the new developed black paint on it. It is just something gray. In the report you can (will) see a real black color around the cylinder.

    • Ged

      On man, where did you get the report, artefact?

      • artefact

        now you can read it in the next thread. I got it from.. somewhere 🙂

  • It looks like a THIRD INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION has now started! Thanks to Andrea Rossi and his assistant Focardi, the world will have safe, clean, cheap and abundant energy supply. That will change our world substantially. Thanks to all who have participated, especially P&F, in the research on cold fusion. jdh

  • GreenWin

    Very good comments Paul Fernhout. For some of us we find it beyond comprehension how vehement the denial of this potential energy source can be. Why after heaps and piles of data proving beyond a shadow of doubt, do the naysayers keep swinging their axes? If not in the pay of fossil or fission, is this unmitigated jealousy? Fear their fiefdoms will come down? Fear they are implicated in corruption and may be prosecuted??

    The universe is an ocean of energy. Energy is exchangeable to matter. So, there IS only abundance and plenty for all – provided the word is spread. Much of this denial began as religious fervor, with Bishop Irenaus of Lyon who hated heretics teaching early Christianity. It continues to this day in attempts (largely successful) to control the population by restricting knowledge, empowering fiefdoms and promoting ignorance.

    There IS plenty. The e-cat and other LENR technology will prove it with energy. And we need to move from fear-based agendas of shortage to learning we don’t have to fight over land, food, energy or water. What a great day that will be!!

    • GreenWin

      I will add a cautionary NOTE: Though we will soon learn the universe is abundant with energy and any matter we can imagine – it is not at all karmic. That is, the universe does not perfectly reflect the good, even when the good propagate positive energy and vibrations across its vast expanse.

      The universe is a distorted mirror in this respect, readily reflecting negative energy but not so often the positive. This too will have to change. Those who do good and are positive, MUST see that reflected back to their lives. Without this, there is only abundance meted out by an overly frugal master.

      • jacob

        GreenWin,thanks for your realistic outlook,I 2nd that.

        Abundance has always been here ,but knowledge to tap into it has been suppressed for centuries .

        The lack of knowledge has made us consumers of goods and services provided by our slavemasters in what appears to be a democracy ,but we live in a controlled world.

        There is enough for everybody,abundant energy,with abundant energy comes abundant food and products.

        It is where we are heading .

    • Tony76

      “find it beyond comprehension how vehement the denial”

      This is truly as interesting as the ecat phenomenon itself.

      It is analagous to religious faith. Both rooted in an existential framework that has massive inertia – quasi impossible to move it.The pathoskeptics are cerebral atheists who worship the quantum randomness of “modern science” Life and Big Bang theories. The hyper-logical mind cannot conceive that a world changing invention could come from a hairdresser (starlite) or a guy from an (alleged) diploma mill (ecat). In their view such inventions only come from government and corporate big-science.

      (Assuming ecat functional confirmation).
      This is a free lunch gifted by the Creator in order that Earth not self-destruct.

      On the subject of confirmation – has SGS confirmed their involvement?

      • GreenWin

        If this is a gift, it is given not only that the Earth evolve, but as a face palm to hyper-logics. A lot of humility and in some cases prosecution will be needed to clean things up.

    • Greenwin “we don’t have to fight over land, food, energy or water” True, except for land, E-cat doesn’t increase land area. But the place with plenty of real estate is space. LENR should help us getting there, if in no other way but by increasing the wealth so that the necessary initial investment can be found. Applying LENR directly to make launch vehicles cheaper might or might not be possible, too early to know.

      • GreenWin

        Very true Pekka. LENR can (with good engineering) deliver fresh water to arid lands that may have once appeared worthless. But low cost launch vehicles are an entirely new industry. And I’ve been thinking about a vacation home on Europa ever since hearing about water there :).

  • The 21st Century Energy Revolution has begun.

    http://www.zazzle.com/energyrevolution