An Assumption

Thanks to Astralprojectee for a recent commment here that I think brings up a good point, and reflects the attitude of many people following the E-Cat story. He said:

“I think most of us here are going off of a general assumption that most people don’t lie. This is a general statement of course. But this is generally true. We all interpret what we experience differently but in the end we don’t serial lie and make up things, especially like this. Now the question is, is Rossi a serial liar? I have not found any read flags yet. We all for the most part have good intentions even if we are delusional and out of touch with reality.”

I am assuming that Andrea Rossi is not a serial liar when he reports the things he does about his work and technology. I personally don’t believe he is lying, and admittedly that is a judgment call I make based on evidence that has accumulated over the past couple of years. I suppose it is conceivable that this whole affair could be based on the total fantasy of a delusional person, or a massive scheme of a criminal mind — but based on all I have learned, I don’t see it.

But I think it is important for readers of this site to understand that I am making the assumption that Rossi is reporting substantially accurate things about his technology. He’s certainly not telling us everything he knows, and we are only really getting glimpses about his work from his usually short posts, so there are certainly many unknowns with regard to the E-Cat.

If things change, and information comes forward that causes the whole story to unravel, I will admit that my assumptions were mistaken.

  • martin

    “most of us here are going off of a general assumption that most people don’t lie.”
    This is true and at the same time it is the exact reason, why liars can be successful.

  • Andrew

    A good point worth repeating once in a while.

    • Jim Johnson

      Words paint an apparent external reality.

      For any apparent external reality, subconscious mental processes strongly seek to determine the validity of that apparent reality, i.e how much we believe it to be real.

      It’s important to survival to both know what to count on and not be deceived.

      At the same time, subconscious mental process are strongly influenced by the *how much* we believe things to be real.

      In particular, the more strongly we believe something to be real, the more mentally energized and focused we are to act on it. And if we find that our belief is mistaken, our energy and focus quickly shift elsewhere. Everyone has experienced this many times.

      In the midst of this, we also largely *choose* how strongly to believe things are real, based on our past experience and anticipated futures.

      If our belief in the reality of Rossi’s work is relatively strong, we have mental energy and focus to proactively think about *how* it is real, *what it might mean*, and *how to learn more about it*.

      If our belief in the reality of Rossi’s work is weak, we may only have enough mental energy and focus to question variances and criticize the level of information available.

      Again, it’s partly, or even largely, a matter of choice.

      For me, having a relatively strong belief that Rossi’s work is real gives me more mental energy, and allows me to *learn more* about LENR in general.

      As for the risk of being wrong, I rose, crashed and burned over Fleischman and Pons in 1989. So, you never know. On balance, I’m willing to go through that again with Rossi.

      Keeping in mind that his statements are influenced by all of the dynamics described above.

  • daniel maris

    The only really tangible evidence I would say for the reality of teh E Cat so far is the SGS safety certificate. If we could have a lot more like that we would feel better about supporting Rossi. The strange thing for an alleged scammer as well is that he doesn’t bombard us with easily scammed photos or videos of the device. That’s odd, and seems to argue more for this to be a genuine development programme.

    None of this is clear! It’s all v. odd.

    However, in a general context there does seem more support for Rossi as more researchers seem to be focussing on nickel-hydrogen as the key fuel arrangement.

    As a non-scientist one can only watch, wait and debate, in an optimistic frame of mind.

  • Charles

    I said long long ago, maybe 10 months, that if Rossi had delivered a unit to a “U.S. Military system, that that system could release through a trusted third party that they had bought the system and it is in use (or test) and working satisfactorily without revealing anything they did not wish to. e.g. the US Navy using 3d party NASA.

    Is the ?US Military? ignoring me or is there some other reason they have not done so?

    I am still sticking by my comment that the official language of cold fusion is: Manana.

    • Andre Blum

      I find your sentence “Is the ?US Military? ignoring me or is there some other reason they have not done so?” extremely funny. Thank you.

    • Peter_Roe

      “Is the ?US Military? ignoring me or…”

      Face it Charles – that is a possibility!

      • Camilo

        The issue raised is a very good one. One assumes that behind all Rossi says there is a rational behaviour. I, unfortunately, have experienced recently that a person that makes outstanding and spectacular claims and seeks media attention and even appears on TV regularly, can be completely and absolutely delusional and insane, but, and here is the catch, have a personality that simply makes everyone love this person, hence, makes easier to allow oneself be draged by this person to a point in which reason gets cancelled. There is such a person in Chile, and has become almost a celebrity, although I know that the guy is a pathological liar, but a charming and enthralling pathological liar. This guy is the envy of any politician.

  • Voodoo

    I have proof, that Italian prospective clients are prioritized via Prometeon distributor. Delivery time for Italian customers is 2 months, whether other clients are 4 months waiting.

    And Prometeon just resetting their countdown timer from 5 days to 35 days (today 34 days). So NO ONE 1MW E-cat is for sale in this very moment !

    Only waiting list (as home e-cats), no real todays delivery no real sale.

    • martin

      Well,I guess “outsourcing” is not quite completed.

      Andrea Rossi
      September 10th, 2012 at 2:57 PM

      Using the outsourcing we can reach good numbers, because what is necessary for us to maintain inside our factory is the production of the core, and we can make up to 100 reawctors per day. In outsourcing we can reach the numbers we want, we have already selected a good number of possible suppliers. The logistics too will be outsourced.

  • Tom Ammons

    We all want to believe but i suppose the problem with some ou older and wisened readers is that we don’t believe hard enough.

  • Trust but verify. Do the tests yourselves instead of waiting for news.

  • Johnny Thunder

    Why does Andrea Rossi have to end his last statement with “this is the truth”?

    • Shane D.

      First time ever I’ve seen Rossi do that. Must have some significance. Lots of Sigmund Freud types… maybe they can explain?

      • Ged

        Sounds like it was a big moment for him. He succeeded in a huge feat he’s been doubted on for a long time, and that was his triumphant slip of the tongue. That’s how it seems to interpret.

    • hadamhiram

      Don’t read into phrases like this, unless you speak Italian. The actual meaning is lost in translation. The meaning of his phrase is probably closer to, “seriously, dude” than anything else.

  • Ivan Mohorovicic

    An interesting message got posted on Cobraf. It appears it’s important. I don’t know if it can be trusted but it appears to paint a different picture of the E-Cat story:

    Google Translate appears to work well in conveying its meaning, but it would be better if an Italian checked if the translation is correct.

    • Loop

      Hahaha what a story. They are trying the new spin.
      Mr.X oh my god.

      • Ged

        Sounds like a Bond villain.

        • Lu

          It is rare to find someone who lies all the time. It is probably just as rare to find someone who tells the truth all the time. My feeling is that Rossi does not always tell the whole truth, or tells the truth knowing that it will not be interpreted accordingly, or tells the truth knowing that it will probably not be true for very long. For a clever mind like Rossi’s, it is very easy to be deceptive. Yes, I would call Rossi dishonest.

          Based on watching this saga very carefully for over a year now, my view is that Rossi is truly trying to develop a revolutionary new source of energy, trying to make a name for himself (and all the attention and power that goes along with it), and is out to make a dollar and that he is using everyone he can to get there. As far as the E-Cat goes, most likely he has something that produces extra heat and that he is making progress in developing it as a new energy source, but the reality is probably significantly removed from what he is effectively claiming.

          Personally I’m a bit tired of being teased. Rossi may indeed come through in the end but that end could be very long time from now.

          • Omega Z


            I think it’s more complicated then that. Were all at Fault.

            If Rossi says 1 or 2 years, He’s probably being optimistic.

            We’re also Overly Optimistic. All we hear is 1 year. In general We missed the Or 2. We can’t help it. We’re anxious for results. We also don’t allow that he is probably over optimistic.

            Rossi also throws in some disinformation. To confuse competitors & such. Were just a causality caught in the middle. Collateral damage so to speak.

            Jed Rothwell also doesn’t trust “Rossi says”. He pulls no punches when it comes to Rossi. However, He thinks people would be foolish to bet against him. If Rossi says something, he may or may not have it Yet as says. But regardless he thinks he will because Rossi is Driven to succeed.

  • vbasic

    It must be a slow day in the news world of LENR.
    Measuring peoples honesty is irrelevant to whether they’ll be successful in an enterprise. Did Bill Gate lie when he told IBM he had an OS ready for the first PC when he did not. He later bought the rights to an OS and modified it. Did Steve Job lie when he said Apple did not steal all the elements for modern PCs such as GUI and mouse from Xerox Parc? I think they deceived, but it didn’t hurt them.
    Did Rossi deceive the Florida Radiation Agency when he was sandbagged by Gary Wright? I think Rossi was truthful in that he wasn’t building devices or a factory using radioactive materials. The low gamma during operation is thermalized snd doesn’t emit to the environment. Some people may disagree but in my mind it was Gary Wright who lied to the Florida agency with the specific goal of harassing Rossi.
    So entrepreneurs might deceive and even lie to protect their investments and property, but won’t reflect their success or lack of same.

    • Andre Blum

      Your statement is true but hardly relevant, as it is not the success of Rossi’s enterprise we care much about.

      We care about the underlying new, cheap, non-polluting form of energy he promises us. Lying about that *does* matter, because if it doesn’t exist, we will not get it. Got it?

      • georgehants

        American distrust in deceptive mainstream media hits an all-time high
        J. D. Heyes
        Natural News
        Sept 26, 2012
        If you’re an avid reader of Natural News, maybe the headline of this story doesn’t surprise you because, obviously, you are here for information you just can’t get in the so-called “establishment” mainstream media. But perhaps you didn’t quite know the extent of the mistrust the American people have for the Fourth Estate, which was, at our nation’s founding, given unique and unprecedented freedoms so as to afflict the comfortable and comfort the afflicted.
        So much for the original agreement. According to a recent Gallup survey, Americans’ distrust of the media hit a record high this year, “with 60 percent saying they have little or no trust in the mass media to report the news fully, accurately, and fairly.”
        That alarming figure is the result of a trend seen worsening over the past few years as more and more Americans became less and less trustful of Big Media.

      • Petrol

        I previously followed another developing technology from a company named ‘eestor’ they were supposedly developing a super capacitor with incredible storage density and cycle life. They had a factory, they had patents and were activly working on purifying “powders”. Most updates were in the form of announcements regarding milestones on purifcation of powders rather than third party validation their technology EVER worked or was even possible.

        When I hear Rossi spending all of his time gabbing about safety certification, patents, new hotcat models and endless parade of puppet snake excuses for denying credible third party validation… my thoughts become “here we go again”. All that matters is whether Rossi claims are real everything else is useless noise in my view.

        Anyone who thinks of investing or becoming a paid reseller for any magical new technology must demand appropriate third party validation the prototypes work as advertised before any money changes hands.

        How many free energy scams have their been over the years? How many nonsensical claims involving zero point energy and special arrangements of magnets? It is incredible to me someone would even go there to discuss liars when the more or less free energy space is clearly littered with crackpots and liars.

        • Ivan Mohorovicic

          This isn’t about a new technology only Rossi has.

        • “All that matters is whether Rossi claims are real everything else is useless noise in my view.”

          My view differs strongly. Rossi claims to have LENR working, with commercial grade COP no less. However LENR is still considered by the general scientific community, and the scientifically aware general public, to be “pathological science”. If LENR (commercial grade or not) is for real, then this is the story of the century. Even if it proves that Rossi is a total fraud (which I doubt), the real story is LENR. Now, LENR has been demonstrated eighteen ways from Wednesday by a dozen top notch sources. I cannot conceive that all, or even half, of these well recognized sources are defrauding or even exaggerating. As a COP=14 reactor is on public display at MIT, I don’t see that commercial grade LENR is that far away in the grand scheme of things.

        • Ged

          Actually, carbon supercapacitors already exist, and you can buy them for like 50 bucks (I’m not kidding. You can even get small ones for $5).

          It’s just that supercapacitors aren’t as “super” in practice as they are on paper. They have advantages and disadvantages relative to batteries; but the energy storage time disadvantage kinda makes batteries win out. Also, some new lithium batteries charge -faster- than supercapacitors. That, and batteries aren’t as prone to failure due to amp overload as supercapacitors are.

          You can see more here

          If Eestor went bust in and of itself, that has nothing to do with supercapacitors. Research is on going (already gotten an order of magnitude better charge/discharge rates in 2011 in lab), but the market is tough since, again, in practice they just aren’t that great.

          As Ivan points out, as with supercapacitors, there are many groups not just Rossi who are working on LENR successfully. But as with supercapacitors, while on paper LENR holds the promise of our energy future, in practice it’s quite difficult.

          • Petrol

            I’m confused by these responses as neither this topic nor my comments were about LENR in general. My comments have been in regards to Rossi only. I agree with sentiments LENR is distinct from Rossi.

            I do not claim to be smart enough to draw conclusions with regards to what is or is not possible in either domain. I can only say I noticed the same pattern in the (in)actions of eestor as I see in Rossi most notably communicating progress which does not speak to the central critical issue and lack of any third party validation.

            Production was to be started some 5 years ago. It has yet to happen. As far as I know no third party has ever evaluated any of the eestor prototypes they claimed to have produced.

          • Harold Coffman

            Thank you, Jim Johnson, for one of the most preceptable comments
            on Rossi.

            Perhaps our ‘own choice’ reads more on, ‘ourself’, than it does
            on Rossi.

            Everyone should cut more slack for Rossi, unless you know a lot
            about the complexity, of patents, of research, of engineering,
            of production, certification and marketing.

        • John

          Spoken as the truth.

        • the problem is that LENR, looks like a scam at the first sight…
          if you are experienced, tired, you won’t look further.

          I do the same for magnetic motors, because I know enough of physics to reject it quickly.

          For LENR I had enough knowledge in physics to differentiate it from “perpetual movement machine”, “ZPE”, “magnetic engine”, but not enough in nuclear physics to reject aneutronic reaction, no-gamma… However I have enough knowledge of semiconductor physics, superconductor physics, chaos theory, to accept the possibility of a lattice effect. I have accepted possibilities of LENr by luck…

          then I read a thousands of abstract in one of the first internet (pre-web) archive about LENR… I get convinced by observation that LENR skeptics where loose, and LENR results were enough solid to demand further research. and I observed that the mainstream denial of LENR was not scientific…

          recently I updated my data, and fact are clear without any doubt about LENR, and with few doubts for NiH, and some moderate concerns about LENR industrials (even Rossi today seems, if not ready, at least not a scam).

          One heuristic that drag us to denial is also that it is hard for a trustful mind to accept that mainstream get totally delusionned about denying LENR. However nothing else is credible (I eliminate alien conspiracy- maybe I should check? ;-> ).

      • Garry

        How rude. Of course his comment is relevant. At least to people who don’t see in black and white.

        One person’s lie is another person’s shade of truth.

        Got it?

    • Ash

      Apple did not steal from Xerox PARC – that’s a myth. Apple paid Xerox with 100,000 shares of pre-IPO stock that today would be worth billions. Malcolm Gladwell wrote an article ‘Creation Myth’ for the New Yorker that spells out their agreement. You can claim that Xerox made a poor deal, but it wasn’t theft.

  • Ash

    Frank, doesn’t Rossi’s history of involvement with two failed projects (including jail time) that had similar grandiose claims which never materialized set any red flags?

    Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Fool me three times…..

    This entire field is ripe for con men and suckers, as one quick look at PESwiki will tell you.

    • Paul Stout
    • Omega Z


      In the U.S. if we pass a new law making something Illegal today, We can’t charge you with it for what you did yesterday. That’s what they did to Rossi. After many years all charges were eventually dismissed. But It did what they wanted. Bankrupted him & put him out of business. Money & Politics.

      Many of his patents on waste recycling are in use today. In multiple countries & Businesses, Although many have been improved upon. Only Virgin plastics can be used for many products. Because of advances in Rossi’s original theories on waste recycling, The Oil & Chemical Companies may soon be able to take used plastics & return it to it’s virgin form. 100% recyclable for all uses.

      As for Rossi’s other so-called Failed project, He was contracted to develop a thermal electric converter. The Goal was 20% efficient that could be mass produced at low cost.

      According to the 150+ page Military report, Rossi did deliver a 20% efficient product to them. But to achieve this required expensive materials all hand made individually. In scaled production, it wasn’t possible. Only a few percent efficient & Expensive materials.

      The Report concluded that Years of research in Material Sciences was needed to develop better & Cheaper thermal materials & Improvements in Precision production equipment.

      So as a proof of concept is was successful. As for mass produced, Efficient & cheap it was not. That was in fact what the project was for. Research. Can it be done.

      Today many gains have been made in research. 20% efficient is very near or possible. Some products may come to market within a couple years for limited use. But the research continues. Mass production of a large scale probably wont take off until 25% to 30% is reached.

      There is also a company working on a concept that may obtain 50% to 60% within about 5 years??? JTEC. A totally different approach. Rossi is also working with an Individual that thinks they may be able to do a direct conversion with the Low Temp E-cat. ?-35%-? Something built into the Core itself using the Beta or Gamma rays. The Audio wasn’t so good. Several years from now.

      All we can do is wait & see & Hope if it actually happens.

      One thing about following Rossi. It’s not as depressing as thinking about a Government Energy Czar wanting $10 a gallon gas or seeing an Electrical chart showing up to $1 per Kwh electricity coming down the road with a dose rationing.

  • Babble

    Liars function in an environment that allows them to make money or take power by lying. Ponzi schemes only have to return money to some investors. This holds true for magic cures that never face any tests or show people with proven disease to be in remission.
    If you think good ideas are never suppressed, watch Burzynski (video on internet).

    Mr. Rossi has apparently produced devices that have shown to produce excess energy while hot fusion has never reached that goal. He seems to be a logical and reasonable person that has put his own money into this venture. Even with witnesses, nothing has shown this to be a hoax so far. If it is a hoax, what is the payoff for Mr. Rossi? Is he going to steal a pile of money and disappear when the whole world knows who he is or is he crazy like some shooter who want infamy?

    He is doing engineering which is not the same a scientific research. His goal is commercial devices. I was an electronics engineer for 40 years so I can say that you develop your theories of what is causing problems as you go. You then test to see if your re-design fixes the issue (and design often requires additional invention). You can be wrong in the process and have to find a new theory. The process done so far looks pretty normal to me. I believe he is on to something great but not all inventions work well enough in the end, for that we need to wait a bit longer.

  • william

    I think if there was a question of fraud he would be smart enough to not defraud the actual licensee but by taking large short position or buying leap puts against the energy concerns he know will be adversely impacted by such a device, without an actual device there is no fraud i.e. in two years come out and say well the tests don’t show more energy, sorry guys. I’ll refund your money (having cleaned up during the meantime using their money to go short).. No fraud at all.

    • GreenWin

      William, your scenario sounds a bit like the movie “Arbitrage.” And it’s a story so well known on Wall Street and elsewhere as to stand little chance of success. Why? Because investors and licensees will not provide enough unsecured funds to buy the shorts. Only sales of e-cats would have enough value and those depend on customer confirmation of function.

      AND, without hard independent evidence of a fully marketable device the markets will not sell off. Although mainstream press is at work now preparing the public disclose. Note how USA TODAY slips a cold fusion story into their content stream, without actually printing a headline.

      EPRI is back in the cold fusion business. They represent about 90% of all electric utilities in the USA.

  • Alexvs

    “If things change, and information comes forward that causes the whole story unravel, I will admit that my assumptions were mistaken.”

    Very fair from you. No one would blame you.

    • Ged

      That’s how a rational mind works :D. It follows the evidence at the time, as it accrues. But this statement also applies both ways.

  • Preston

    Some people, for example criminal defense lawyers, lie for a living. Scientists and engineers search for and worship the truth, they can be very gullible when talking to professional liers.

    Hard to tell with Rossi, on the one hand the spinoffs from people who know him like Celani who then go out and make something that seems to work is pretty convincing. But, on the other hand that hot cat failure and investor pull-out is pretty bad.

    • John E

      Making the statement ” criminal defense lawyers lie for a living” is unfair an inaccurate.
      Some do. Sometimes. Not all.

      It is equally inaccurate to say that scientists and engineers worship the truth. Some might.

      People are people.

      • Preston

        Its a generalization, and of course there might be exceptions, but I don’t see how anyone doing criminal defense could make a living without being a professional liar.

    • GreenWin

      And Wall Street brokers, Madison Ave advertisers, FBI, CIA, Attorney Generals, actors, authors, oilmen, car salesmen, Santa Claus, welfare queens, “the press” and the Tooth Fairy don’t “lie for a living?”

      • Preston

        I like to at least think the press is looking for the truth, but you have a good point about the others.

        • Omega Z


          The Media is suppressed.

          Years ago CBS 60 Minutes did an episode on the Philadelphia Experiment. The last 5 minutes of the show they told of Efforts by the Government trying to shut it down.

          To Start, The Witness who was to provide absolute proof never showed for a meeting. When they went to his home, he was found shot in the head in his car. A Cuff with a short length of chain dangling from his wrist.

          Their producers were threatened in multiple ways & even threatened to Pull CBS’s FCC License to Broadcast. I Actually saw this show. There was no follow up from viewers the next week which was normal procedure. Never mentioned again. Like the show never happened. I’ve Searched many time on the Net for info & CBS Archives. Nothing.

          Industry can & Does the same thing when they practice to suppress Info.
          Why the Mythbusters won’t do RFID: Adam Savage- 2 minutes.

  • georgehants

    From Keshe, is this new or old hat.
    The panel is about as big as a medium sized battery.The panel is about as big as a medium sized battery.The Keshe Foundation is proud to announce the development of “Day & Night panels” which deliver current day and night at levels considerably higher than those from present solar panel models. These D&N panels will be able to supply constant power to electrical and electronic devices. This new technology is under patent application.
    At the same time these panels are able to capture CO2 and CH4 from the air and convert them to a liquid state. CO2 and CH4 are important greenhouse gases.

    • Roger Bird

      Please, go on and explain how it works, how far along they are in development, and stuff like that, because I am having trouble finding basic information from the website. All I get is strange interviews by offensive reporters and useless latest information.

  • SH

    From the movie “The avengers” (2012)

    Steve Rogers: Does Loki need any particular kind of power source?
    Bruce Banner: He got to heat the cube to a hundred and twenty million Kelvin just to break through the Coulomb barrier.
    Tony Stark: Unless, Selvig has figured out how to stabilize the quantum tunnelling effect.
    Bruce Banner: Well, if he could do that he could achieve Heavy Ion Fusion at any reactor on the planet.
    Tony Stark: Finally, someone who speaks English.

  • artefact

    Here is an article about your electric sail Pekka:

    • Omega Z

      The Shape is a little disturbing. A Cube
      Resistance is Futile, You Will Be Assimilated. The Borg…

      Actually NASA had a project where they fed out a tether behind 1 of the Shuttles. The Idea was to Generate Electricity from the Earths magnetic field. Then Microwave beaming the power to ground stations for distribution.

      The World Powers weren’t to keen on the Idea. Fear of Laser based Space weapons with unlimited power. Alternative would be a Space cable to earth stations when the Technology advances to the point this can be done.

  • Roger Bird

    I could not agree more with Astralprojectee. Except I don’t want to be caught with my pants down short-stroking over what turns out to not be true. So I remain very optimistically agnostic. For me, LENR and LENR-on-Steroids are facts.

  • georgehants

    From Coraf. Google translate needed.
    New figures sull’Hydrobetatron of Abundo
    26 Settembre 2012 21:20

  • GreenWin

    Whilst discussing Assumption – here is another subtle mainstream event acknowledging cold fusion’s rise in the VC community:

    Cleantech Professional Webinar Series:

    “Our first class Next Generation Energy – LENR/Cold Fusion/”Free Energy”, Fact vs Fiction will be led by Dr. Edward Beardsworth on Thursday September 20, 2012 at 10:00 AM PST.”

    It’s interesting to read Dr. Beardsworth background:

    “After earning a PhD in physics in 1972 from Rutgers University, he was in the group at Brookhaven National Lab that undertook interdisciplinary analyses of energy systems during the first energy crisis of the 1970s. Subsequently, he served in positions at the Electric Power Research Institute (EPRI), which has given him an insider’s view of power systems and the utility industry. Dr. Beardsworth speaks the language of both technologists and investors, providing an important bridge between these two stakeholder groups.

    Besides being’s Research Director, he’s been Associate Director at Jane Capital Partners LLC, advisor to Nth Power, Garage Technology Ventures, and a consultant to the Cleantech Group. He previously managed the Hub Lab, a stealth R&D program funding revolutionary energy technologies, and managed the UFTO program, providing technology scouting to 30 of the top utility R&D and corporate venture arms.”

    This is in effect a seminar for venture capitalists. See now why investment is rolling away from new wind, solar, oil, nuke projects?

    • Jim Johnson

      Odd thought: maybe there will be so many entrant and entry points into the the LENR technology market, and so little intellectual property protection, that there won’t be any “venture” level investment opportunities. It may all get down to a flurry of releases and then a lot of grunt materials science to optimize COP, grunt engineering to miniaturize components, and grunt re-engineering to transform energy distribution systems.

  • hadamhiram

    Rossi has a dubious past, so he’s not a trustworthy source of information. Does that make him a liar and scam-artist? Well, that depends on his intent.

    It seems to me quite obvious that Rossi’s intent isn’t to scam people for money. He has made far too much real progress and far too little money for that to be realistic. The thing with Ponzi schemes is that when you pull away the curtain, there is *nothing* behind it.

    I think it is far more likely that Rossi is somewhat delusional. I think he obviously *believes* everything he says. But that obviously doesn’t make the things he says true. Even though it is clear to those of us following him closely that he tries to include disclaimers and cautions in his statements, it seems obviously that he is unrealistically optimistic and that he continually underestimates the challenges, hurdles, and amount of time needed to reach specific milestones – especially with respect to certification and product commercialization.

    Having said all of that, there is one last thing to keep in mind: *if* Rossi really does have a breakthrough LENR device (with ecat or hot cat or whatever), it *is* worth getting excited about. Those of us following the developments of this technology get pretty excited. Just imagine how someone like Rossi must feel! Wouldn’t you be jumping up and down and running in circles too if you thought you had the solution to the world’s energy problems in your lab?

    So a scam-artist? Probably not. A liar? Maybe. Slightly delusional? Yes. Will he deliver on his claims? Impossible to say.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Could the same things be said about the hot fusioneers?

      • joe j

        Considering actual fusion is occurring in hot fusion and NIF is is almost at the breakeven point i would say the ecat is nothing like hot fusion.

        • Roger Bird

          joe j, you aren’t serious, are you? 45 years ago hot fusionist (we didn’t have that term then; they were just “fusionists”) said that we were 35 years away from breakeven. Now they say that we are 50 years away from breakeven. At this rate, by 2042, we should be approximately 65 years away from breakeven. This is some really convincing progress!

          • Alan DeAngelis

            Yeah Roger.It seems like the hot fusion people have given up on their promise of giving us deuterium-deuterium fusion. They are working on deuterium-tritium fusion. The tritium is made from lithium. So the limiting factor for hot fusion (if it could be achieved) would be lithium (not the limitless amounts of deuterium in the oceans). They’ve been lowering the bar for themselves over the decades as they raise the bar for Rossi.

        • Kim G. Patterson


    • Kim G. Patterson

      How many gifts to Humanity
      have -you- brought.

      Rossi is at war, not a scam.


    • That sums it up very well.

      Is the past a measure of the future? Rossi gained a lot of credibility
      in 2011 when he exceeded expectation and met every milestone.

      This year the track and direction seems to change a bit over time ahead of the anticipated result.

    • Barry

      Rather than dissecting his character, why don’t we just wait until the reports come out.

  • theBuckWheat

    We are beyond the point were assurance of performance no longer can be put forward as a substitute for third party verification of performance.

  • Chris

    The whole thing is rather complex, so any attempt to simplify it is out of place. Many considerations are in order, here are a few at the very least:

    Rossi is an entrepreneur; he don’t owe nothing to nobody that ain’t contracted no obligation with him. He is not a scientist, not a researcher, he doesn’t have to follow the standards that many are demanding of him.

    It is still early to demand him to show non-military customers. Even industrial ones wouldn’t have to agree to come out in public with it, they could well prefer to make their investment and, if it works, do no favours to their competitors.

    Prometeon srl has recently postponed its countdown by a good 30 days. I found this slightly suspicious, still there might have been good reasons for it. All I can say about this is: I don’t know.

    Daniel Maris presumably refers to Eddington, but this isn’t a good comparison. Further to what I said about entrepreneur vs. scientific researcher, Eddington was totally independent of Einstein who had no industrial secrets and did not own the sun, moon and stars. We know very little about Domenico Fioravanti (although I don’t get the impression that some impostor was playing in his role).

    Aside from the unknown military customer, we know who Levi is, we know who Focardi is, we know who Piantelli et al. are, we know who Takahishi is and we know who Celani is. We also know who many others are that have reported CF results that aren’t Ni-H and so, all in all and despite controversy among physicists, it seems more a matter of whether Rossi’s claims could be exaggerated than whether they might be false. He just followed up on the work of Piantelli, Focardi et al.

    As for the many nuclear and particle physicists who scoff at the very possibility of these phenomena, they are somewhat barking up the wrong tree. They reason in terms of the phenomena they are familiar with, neglecting complexities introduced by the loaded metallic lattice in which these phenomena are reported to occur.

  • captain


    GreenWin on September 27, 2012 at 5:19 am
    It is amusing to watch the same old skeps come here cloaked in a new pseudonym begging for attention and an ear to bend. There is a perverse pessimistic joy sought by this bunch of “skeptics” who refuse to be satisfied preaching to their own choir. So they traipse to Frank’s site tossing bitter-grenades in the hope of souring the positive LENR vibration………………………

    Call it a job, or a mission or whatever U like, but so it is, unfortunately.

    Hi Green, your description is poetic 🙂

    • GreenWin

      Captain, I rather think of it as an “assignment.” There’s more cloak and dagger to it.