MFMP Celani Nov 12th Cell Live Run Thread

Here’s a post from an earlier thread from Bob Greenyer of the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project about the first test run of the the Celani LENR cell that is scheduled for Monday, Nov 12.

Hi All,

We are expected to go for first active loaded wire test at 8 am central American time Monday 12th November 2012.

Our H2 loading was a complete success and matched Celani’s findings, this has been confirmed by the highest authority on the matter.

We hope that you will be able to spare the time to watch the story develop. We are cautiously optimistic given the success on the loading – we may see the New Fire lit from about 10am central American time.

Wish us luck, this is for you.

A live data feed can be viewed here — see Celani Cell #1

Bob also told me that they would be reporting live about the experiment on their progress blog here.

I may not be able to monitor everything carefully tomorrow in real time, so I thought I would set up this thread so that people could share news and observations. I know this is a big day for the MFMP — they are cautiously optimistic, but certainly not overly confident. This is the first test run, and there are a lot of unknowns at this point. I have to say that this project has gone ahead with impressive speed and competence. The people involved are dedicated to trying to show the world that there is a new fire available that can be used for the benefit of everyone.

  • Jim

    Yeah! Go guys, light ’em up!

  • Gérard2012

    I put two bottles of champagne in the fridge. Andrea Rossi and one for one for Franscesco Celani!

  • georgehants

    A gentleman by the name of Jung, many years ago, followed Evidence and reported many important advances to science.
    Science in many cases being psychologically challenged could not except such esoteric information and turned almost completely to a more reductionist guy named Freud.
    Maybe the incompetent denials by science of many subjects not fitting their religious Dogma should become known as, the Cold Fusion Effect.
    News in Science
    Monday, 12 November 2012 Jennifer Viegas
    Discovery News.
    Study author, Dr Lance Storm, a visiting research fellow with the University of Adelaide’s School of Psychology, finds that Jung was right.
    Dream symbols could help psychotherapy
    “In Jungian theory, these symbols are manifestations of the unconscious mind; they are a glimpse into the brain’s ‘unconscious code’, which we believe can be decrypted.”
    Storm says Jung’s theories could broaden the range of options available to patients undergoing treatment for mental health problems.
    “Our research suggests that instead of randomly interpreting dream symbols with educated guesswork, archetypal symbols and their related meanings can be objectively validated. This could prove useful in clinical practice,” he says.
    “We believe, for example, that dream analysis could help in the treatment of depression.”
    “This is a rapidly growing area of mental health concern, because depressive people are known to experience prolonged periods of rapid eye movement (REM) sleep, which is directly linked with emotional processing and dreaming.”

  • artefact


    “Imagine smart phones that never need charging
    Quenco is an ultra thin nanofilm that makes coal, oil, gas and nuclear obsolete
    All the energy mankind will ever need is in the air and water that surrounds us
    Quenco extracts heat from air to make electricity, even if the air is sub zero
    It is solid state, reliable, powerful, non-polluting, and will be very inexpensive
    Quenco simply converts electron kinetic energy into electrical potential energy

    All royalties received from Quenco will go to the Quenco Foundation
    $900M raised from the last 9 licences goes to the Quenco Foundation

    Official Launch
    30th November 2012

    • R101

      “After the launch there will be 9 more licences for sale at $100M per licence”

      That counts me out 🙂
      Looking forward to seeing some facts (if they exist) on this one.

    • Mark


    • Chris

      “Quenco simply converts electron kinetic energy into electrical potential energy.”

      What prevents electrons from falling back down the potential gradient, directly inside?

  • Andrea Di Luccio

    I want to thank this people. This is the way things in LENR should be. We love this.


  • georgehants

    From Cold Fusion News, sorry if old.
    New Website Provides LENR Proof and Details Rossi’s Relationship with Siemens
    Published November 11, 2012 | By jennifer

    • Redford

      I hadn’t read it and found it interesting. Thank you !

    • GreenWin

      Tyler needs to review the latest Wall Street data on Siemens AG, who will likely drop their bid for Ansaldo due to Italian government reluctance to sell this asset to a foreign entity. Ansaldo remains an energy company interested in LENR.

      Looks like HUGnet shows 7.1W excess heat at timeline 4:23:50.

      • Hi Greenwin, do you have a link on this? I will update, thanks, tyler

        • GreenWin

          Tyler, looks like Ansaldo might be trying to lure Siemens into a bidding war. The bid by Siemens looks low (1.3B Euro) for 100%. Fox News reports a State owned Italian fund is involved, Fondo Strategico making an overture for the 55% controlling interest of Finmeccanica.

          It is interesting the deal is in play, and that Italian government sees Ansaldo as “strategic” to Italy. Keep in mind that DARPA’s budget indicates joint development of certain LENR-type research with Italy’s ENEA (government energy agency.)

      • captain

        Other italian investors are on the way to enter the Italian co.

      • captain

        Very likely some Italian investors should enter Ansaldo co.

    • Lu

      P_xs seems to be getting larger and larger when positive. It does drop to negative at the step but then recovers and is at +2.684W as I write this. Not clear if overall we are getting excess power since it is still stepping so we have to integrate over the whole time to know this.

      Not sure when activation temperature is reached and when power in will stop being stepped. At that point the experiment just needs to run long enough to determine overall excess energy produced.

      Exciting stuff!

      P.S. Just saw the post on activation temperature. T_mica is about 112C now.

      • Pachu

        I think activations intervals are coming more close now, wasnt 45 minutes ?

        • Lu

          I think they bump power up every 45 minutes still. T_mica rises about 35-40C over this time. So currently we are at about T_mica =150C so we have 3 or so more power bumps to go.Activation/Ignition in 2-3 hours????

          • Pachu

            Thats what i think, but i see small bumps in P_In in more smalls intervals.

    • artefact
      • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

        Not working.

      • Lu

        Looks like recent data isn’t on the new server yet.

      • georgehants

        Andrea Rossi
        November 13th, 2012 at 11:36 AM
        I am receiving many requests of interview in this period, and I am spamming all of them. This comment is the answer for all: I will not release any more interview of any kind until the 1 MW plant for civil use will be presented to the public. This decision has been agreed upon between our new US Partner and the Trust that owns Leonardo Corp. We think any interview in this period is simply useless, because we have nothing to add to what we have already said, while we have an enormous work to do.
        I will continue to answer to the questions put on this blog from the readers of the Journal Of Nuclear Physics, though, because this blog is useful to us: here we learn, many times.
        Warm Regards,

  • Andre Blum

    The progress blog page continues to time out for me. Does it work for you guys?

    • admin

      I was able to get in fine, Andre.

      • Andre Blum

        Ah, the problem seems to be in their IPv6 website only. If I force IPv4 precedence, it works. Thanks!

        (I try to keep up with technology, as obviously they do too 🙂 )

        • Hal

          Dear Andre,
          1 How did you find the site is ipv6 only?
          2 I can’t access it at all, my ISP supports teredo but not full ipv6, does that mean I’m stuffed?
          If not how did you ‘force’ ipv4?
          Searching the net forcing only works if the destination host has ip4 available
          VERY frustrated

          • Dickyaesta

            Can any body help I have the same problem as Hal, it seems. I know you guys are watching intensively the progress maybe someone have a moment to explain how to force IP4 precedence which Andre is indicating

    • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

      It works for me fine and smoothly.

  • The Cell has cooled – we are vacuuming out the Hydrogen now

    • Methusela

      Excellent, waiting for the data 😉

    • Andre Blum

      Good luck!
      Can we simply watch he P_xs line? Or what do you suggest we keep a close watch on?

    • vbasic

      I’m watching this the same way I did when the first man landed on the moon, with amazement and anticipation.
      It’s incredible the communication is done by tools predicted by Science Fiction writers.
      Now for a technical question. Can someone explain why the remaining H2 not loaded in the wire is being vacuumed out? Is it only for the tests?


      • georgehants

        This could also be a large step for mankind.

      • vbasic – we need to make sure that we get the right mixture of gas in the cell for the run.

      • Pedro

        For me it’s also the same feeling as when i was watching the moon landing. I only hope this breakthrough will go on and on, not like the moon adventure that went dead after a few trips and now is almost forgotten.
        So yes, same feeling, but hopefully not same aftertast.

  • GreenWin

    Richard Long is an author and enthusiast of cold fusion. His new e-book, “Cold Fusion Power for Everything” is previewed in Amazon’s catalog. Here is a portion of the introduction:

    Long makes clear he is not an engineer nor has he a science background. But he does intuit the vast change for good that the LENR revolution portends. And it is good to read another view of positive changes to come.

  • Activation temperature will hopefully be around 270 degrees centigrade

    • Pachu

      In wich sensor ? Mica, Well, Glass ?

      • We are watching the mica temperature – but this is a new science – the data will reveal all afterwards.

        • buffalo

          hey bob.why do u guys wana run in H2/Ar mixture.why nt use pure H2.surely resultant exces heat will be better

          • It is to do with thermal conductivity, Celani advised it and it is part of doing the replication.

    • clovis

      Hi, bob
      I’m watching , with great interest,—here’s hoping, smile

  • georgehants

    Public release date: 12-Nov-2012
    Contact: Traci Peterson
    University of Texas at Arlington
    UT Arlington physics team demonstrates new power generation technique
    “If we can convert both light and heat to electricity, the potential is huge for energy production,” Chen said. “By increasing the number of the micro-devices on a chip, this technology might offer a new and efficient platform to complement or even replace current solar cell technology.”

    • Pachu

      “physics professor Wei Chen” Chen… that sounds familiar…

      • Robert Mockan

        Not the same Chen. The physics guy would not be using propane in his glove box during loading of the cylinder with his active LENR mixture, would have better data logging, and would have disclosed more detail so his experiments could be replicated.

        • Peter_Roe

          I think the fantasist with the glovebox and exploding nuclear bullets called himself ‘chan’ rather than Chen.

  • Additionally,

    1. The European cell (Celani 2) is undergoing a calibration, you can follow its live data also.

    2. If we are fortunate enough to see measurable excess heat on this first attempt with Celani 1 – we are likely to just leave the cell running and build another. Donations would help this.

    • robyn wyrick

      Thanks for the steady updates!!!

    • Martin

      Where are the live data?

      • Pachu

        Is in the post…

    • Lu

      Running for a while at excess power needs to be done to rule out non-chemical sources but I’m not sure how long this would be. Has to do with the weight of the wire (or maybe the weight of the coating on the wire).

      I think this experiment is already a success in demonstrating open and collaborative science. Hopefully demonstration of LENR will happen now or soon afterwards. I plan on donating as soon as I talk to my wife 🙂

      • Lu

        Meant, “to rule out chemical sources”….

    • Ged

      I don’t think we are quite seeing the effect yet (I bet if we integrated over the steps it would come out to ~0), but we’re almost at the point were we should. If it does hit 20 W excess like Celani’s device, then we will see that without a problem. Guess it is best to let that go for as long as the reactor can maintain itself, even if that’s months.

      This is getting very exciting. So close guys!

      • Lu

        Actually over the last 45 minutes, it looks like excess power.

        The data is coming to me in small amounts. Most recent data is 11:13:51. I’m not sure if it’s there server or the browser software. Once it updates I’ll download a cvs file and see if I can do some calcs.

        • Pachu

          I think the time is local to your regional setting.

          Here shows 2012-11-12 16:13:51 wich is my time, and curretly very quiet 156.5 Cº aprox. at the T_MICA

          The excess is small, can be chemical

          • Ged

            Maybe, remember the control runs though, they give us everything to evaluate from. Hydrogen loading is exothermic, so now that there is no hydrogen in the atmosphere, if hydrogen was unloading we should see negative excess power. I think at this point we are higher than the controls. But, you are right in that we won’t know for sure until enough time has passed to rule everything out.

            The run simply has to go long enough to produce enough energy to rule out chemical. Seems to be well on the way from what I see at the moment. The closer we get to 270 C, the higher the excess is becoming, so this is very interesting.

        • Ged

          I see what you mean, Lu, you are right. When I looked, it was just while a power stepping was on going. Now the P_xs is at 5.1 Watts, which is definitely getting towards substantial, and above chemical. Since, after all, we have all those control runs in the various atmospheres which do not show such a large Wattage as that. 2 W as before maybe, but 5 is definitely well on the way to excess if not there already.

          This is spectacular to watch.

        • Robert Mockan

          Phase 2 of this project should be what we all want Celani to do. Insulate the reactor more so the input power sustaining the reaction temperature can be reduced, until it becomes self sustaining with heat from just the LENR active wire surface maintaining the temperature. If the wire puts out 20 thermal watts, then the insulation must enable equilibrium at the reaction temperature between what is generated, and what passes through the insulation.

          Need more heat? Increase the wire length 10 times for 200 thermal watts.

          The big moment will come when they make their own active wire, and publish the procedure how to make it so any person can. But will they go that far?

          Once the secret is out, the procedure can be experimented with to make it simpler, use it treat nickel alloy plates, not just wire. Heat the or metal sheets to 270 C plus, and they become active. Can they be heated to Rossi hot cat temperature? Just make the information available, and we can all find out.

      • Redford

        As the data flow is very slow I made a screen cap of what I had after some tweaks. This is the first run : as you can see excess heat at least makes no doubt. I think it ends up around 8 Wth solid.(yellow curve).

        • Many thanks for these direct updates guys
          Can not get sound on the MFMP site for some strange reason

  • Andre Blum

    8 watts excess heat. Are we still talking inertia?

    • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

      I think Excess heat is not visible so far.

    • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

      There is no excess heat, correct me if I’m wrong.

      • Andre Blum

        yes, it’s back at around zero.

  • Lu

    Getting close to activation temperature (T_Mica=270C): T_Mica at 246.898C at xx:30:37. Data running about 10 minutes behind real time for me.

    At xx:45:00 should get another power boost which should bring T_Mica over the activation temperature.

    • Lu

      T_Mica is rising less per power boost than earlier. At xx:17:27 T_Mica is 267.167C which is very close to the expected 270C activation temperature. Maybe at the next power boost (15 minutes from now)???

      • Ged

        Seems we’re frozen till the new server comes up.

        • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

          It is not promising. It is strictly inert so far, apart from a flash seen earlier.

          • Ged

            I thought it was looking fine, up to 5 watts.

            It’s the long term stable temperature at or above 270 C that’ll tell us if there’s a sustained excess or not.

        • Lu

          I’m acutally getting some data right now but it’s only at xx:38:25 and quite a bit behind.

          • Ged

            Seems to be working better for you Lu than I! If you see something, give a shout if willing.

    • Peter Poulsen

      I can see the P_out is about 2 watts above P_in. Is that completelly normal or are we seeing some kind of reaction as we are getting close to the 270 degrees

      • Lu

        That value, or P_xs which is the difference varies from negative to a small value. Not too much should be read into it at this time because it is so small and the system is not in a steady state. After activation we should see this value in the double digits I believe and if high enough evidence for LENR.

        Unfortunately real time data is not working very well (or at all ) at this point so it’s hard to tell what is going on but we are close to or after expected activation temperature. MFMP is working on fixing the real time data feed.

  • jfab

    So, the experiment is not generating any excess heat. Sad but hey, one’s got to accept reality.

    • Ged

      Where do you see that? Data stopped updating hours ago, before the critical temp, as far as I can find. Do you have new data?

      • GreenWin

        This is one of the denial… of service guys.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    I have a dumb question. Is this exactly the same experiment that Celani did? Did he use the same piece of wire in his calibration that he used for the experiment? I’m just wondering if heating the wire in helium could have somehow “poisoned” the wire.

    • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

      Helium is a poison, so might be Argon. I hadn’t thought of that. Buy another wire from Celani, and do it again, but no gases other than hydrogen. Pure hydrogen, please.

    • NJT

      We must all keep in mind that this is just a first run experiment. I imagine a lot of information was obtained and needs to be analyzed and then applied to the next run. History has shown this is not easy, but this is what experimentation and applying the scientific method is all about…

      Hang in there guys!!!

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Another thought. Maybe there is more than hydrogen adsorption (on the surface) taking place. Maybe there is absorption (taken into the wire) as well. If so, it might take some time for the hydrogen to fully saturate the wire. Give it a little more time.

      • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

        It’s getting past my bedtime, but I want to see something before I turn in.

        • Charlie Sutherland

          The idea that a free exchange of ideas and data will create a boon for all mankind is naive at best. The human animal likes and needs credit. Unless he gets some kind of credit, he just ain’t gonna invest his time, or money in a project. It may be that the mere creation of a new device is credit enough on a personal level, but the added credit, money, and prestige allows more time and opportunity for new projects.

          It’s just the way it is. Rossi is doing what it takes to get the credit he needs to continue to create. You can see this with each new announcement of his ever better mousetrap.

          • Lu

            The internet is a counterexample of the gist of your argument.

          • Tangled Connections

            I don’t think people are denying that what you state is how things currently work. They are merely saying that things could be different and better, and this project might be an example of how that might work. It doesn’t mean they are naive any more than your position makes you a cynic.

          • GreenWin

            Charlie, you do not see the whole picture. The guys at the MFMP are ALL getting “credit.” Such that, if the project succeeds in producing an LENR apparatus that consistently demonstrates excess heat – they can likely name their price. And that may not be financial alone. There is a good chance a large entity would contract the team for additional LENR research of a commercial nature. Each team member has a major feather to wear, should they choose to shop their talents.

            Open Access is merely a gateway that guarantees good ideas and research gets into the public dialog. From there, plenty of entrepreneurs can develop the research into viable products, services, etc. Corp and guv’mnt employees rarely get financial boost or public credit for inventions that are patented by their employers. They might get a raise and an attaboy, and a warning about their non-compete clause.

    • Sanjeev

      If anyone wants to compare (and understand exactly what’s happening) this report from Celani is a must read.

      This is the original of which the replication is being attempted. The wire is of course not the same, but similar.

      I’d request Frank to put this link in the main post, and also a link to new data server. I guess its still offline.

    • Ged

      Hydrogen was loaded after the helium run, and this is monitored by the R/Ro resistance drop. I don’t think helium has poisoned anything as hydrogen loaded fine (replicated Celani’s observations completely). So far everything’s looking good, but the data stream overloaded from all us watchers before the critical temp. We are still left hanging.

  • daniel maris

    So, can anyone say if it’s a negative result on excess heat? I’d just like to know! 🙂

    If negative, so be it. It’s disappointing but not necessarily fatal to hopes of confirmation.

    • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

      It’s too early. The data feed died before critical temperature was reached. There is therefore still hope for a positive result.

    • Ged

      We don’t know. But it was looking like it was working. We were getting more and more excess heat production as he got closer to the critical temp. Last I saw, we were at 5 Watts max of excess.

      But remember, the true run is after the temp ramp up is complete and stable, it’s over the long term that we see the effect if it’s there. But.. very tantalizingly positive so far!

      • Ivone Martin FitzGerald
      • clovis

        Hi, guys,
        Are we there yet, are we there yet,are we there yet.-smile
        i suspose it still running, and a new data set on it way?

        • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

          It worked! I’m the last one up, and I’ve read the graph and it shows a clear excess of 2.5 to 3 watt.

  • Sanjeev

    I can see the data now. At present its showing an excess of 2 Watts.

    In the original experiment by Celani, it took 100 hours to reach 10 W excess. So too early to say anything at this time.

    • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

      I am delighted. How can you say it has a value of 2 watts? It’s right against the floor.

      I can go to bed happy.

      • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

        It had a value of between 2.5 to 3 watt. There is such a thing as cold fusion. Let’s not hear any different.

      • Sanjeev

        Yes, its probably just noise. I downloaded the 12 hour data and it seems that T_Glassout is not increasing at all (its actually going down) and the resistance is increasing (it should go down).

        So far no reason to get excited. 🙂

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Yeah Sanjeev, if Celani ran it for 100 hours than it’s way too early. It’s a solid phase system and a wire has a much lower surface to volume ratio than a finely divided powder. It will take a long time to drive the hydrogen into the wire. Let’s not have a repeat of 1989 (a premature death of cold fusion party).

  • Hi All,

    It is very late here in Europe, I am the last one awake and about to sleep and Ryan is celebrating his birthday with his family.

    We have just written a review of the past few days which we will run parts by Celani for his thoughts before blogging and we have discovered quite a lot. We have also got a lot of thoughts about how other commercial designs might work and why and we got this from plotting the resistivity against power over the experiment so far – for a bit of fun, please download it and plot it on two axis and see if you come to the same conclusions as us – it is quite surprising. This one graph might explain why multiple reactors are needed and what sort of control/cycling is required.

    This along with the very successful loading has been the high points, the effective denial of service through server overload and then failure after switching to another faster server were the low points. The really difficult point was that the Quartz glass was loosing so much through IR (rather than thermalising it, see our previous discussions) that we have not seemingly got to activation temperature of the wire despite running at over twice the input power of Celani’s experiment. We have decided to leave it running at the current input power to gather data to assess the rate of R/R0 change rather than risk loss of the wire through over driving it. There are also other electrical effects at high currents that may be undesirable also.

    We will get back to you on the interpretation of the raw data. In hindsight, actioning debate points on excess power assessment during a live run was probably confusing for everyone not in our realtime multiway google link-up.

    Key aspects that we need to think about going forward are

    – cycling during loading
    – inducing nano scale fracturing of wire
    – different glass types
    – choice of calibration data for excess power calculation

    • Oh – also, we should consider

      – re-running at lower pressure
      – going straight to high power rather than slowly going up

      – but still plenty of data to come from this run yet!


    • timycelyn

      Bob, re infra-red heat loss. If the quartz tube is included for safety reasons, and its transparency in the near infra-red is causing the problem, how about a second co-axial tube, either external (easier) or internal (major pain, I imagine) of Pyrex, which if I remember correctly has less transparency in the near infra-red. One might even consider going even further and if an external sleeve could be used, consider soda-glass.



      • Or make metal-coated stripes on the quartz tube’s outside (so one can still see the wire partly through), or add external e.g. semicylindrical aluminium reflectors with their own supports outside the glass tube.

      • Some good suggestions are being made along these lines, all things for consideration, it is great to have such collaboration.

        Modifications such as this however, may require re-build and more calibration runs. Since we already have a low pressure calibration run in the current configuration – and Celani advises to try this route to get the wire to a higher temperature for a lower input power – we will look to do a load and active run at low pressure.

  • Part of our initial thoughts and discussion up online now.

    1st experiment is ongoing


    • Am I being short-sighted when I ask what difference this experiment makes? It seems to me that between SRI and MIT there has been sufficient validation and replication. That Professor Celani can get a few watts of excess heat out of a couple of loaded wires doesn’t seem too exciting. Why should we care, when we have 1MW plants up and running and on sale?

      • Cliff Bradley

        This is LENR for the masses.

        People have said over and over in this forum that if Rossi just let his secret out to the world, that we’d have thousands of scientists working on it and get it out to the world in a relatively short time compared to what Rossi can do. That’s nonsense of course, but with lots of people working on it, you might get something new. Also, this is relatively inexpensive so some of these high school geniuses might come up with something.

        It’s just a setup that works and lots of people can play with it and that can yield some interesting results. It might allow some obscure scientists to come up with competing theories on how it works. Or it might allow someone to find another way to get more energy out of it. That’s all you get but that might be a lot.

        Rossi’s company is probably the only one that will produce working plants, but you never know.

      • John-xyz

        The goal of the organisation is to provide 10 working devices and send them to scientific organisations for research. They are in the early stages – get something working, then make 10 copies.

      • Robert Mockan

        Rossi has not yet disclosed his precise procedure for making his LENR catalyst, but Celani has revealed enough information to make his LENR active catalyst if one studies recent disclosures on the subject. Earlier today I posted links to relevant documentation on my blog site at
        in the posting titled “Update About Making DIY LENR Catalyst”.

        The specific details about the wire surface treatment is found in the link to this science article:

        “HIGH-LOADED NICKEL-SILICA CATALYSTS FOR HYDROGENATION, PREPARED BY SOL-GEL ROUTE: STRUCTURE AND CATALYTIC BEHAVIOR”, Marina A. Ermakova, Dmitry Yu. Ermakov, Applied Catalysis A: General 245 (2003) 277–288.

        Note that the Celani wire is made using 300 surface treatments to make the nickel and silica particles bonded tightly to the surface of the metal wire. The LENR activity was not mentioned in the 2003 science article because that was not the focus of the research. But read the posting yourself to get the details.

        In addition the Celani patent claims are consistent with the procedures discussed in the catalyst science article, and also include variations of the surface treatment that others may attempt. The Celani patent is actually very complete if short, and much superior to anything Rossi has revealed.

        • Lu

          Also Celani reported recent improvements in the production of the wire which is probably also very significant. This is from his ICCF presentation (which has other statements about the wires):

          Since June 5, 2012 we were able to improve, largely, the production procedure (active material increased from 1-2% to about 30%) of the sample (wire, diameter 200m, length 100cm): we will report, in details, only the most recent results with the new wires.

          • Robert Mockan

            It may be possible to correlate the amount of hydrogen absorbed, or/and the wire resistance, with the increased LENR active surface, in which case one could proceed without a SEM when using the sol-gel process and experimenting to increase the active surface material area. 30 percent is better than 1-2 percent, but more would be better. Amount of catalyst needed for a fixed power output (equate cost), for reactor is inversely proportional to LENR active surface area. A SEM, especially when combined with x-ray fluorescence analyzer for element determination, is way out of my funding ballpark, and my optical microscope does not have the required resolution for surface nano-structure analysis. The right lab equipment would make progress so much easier!

      • Barry

        The goal Joe, is to prove undeniable repeatable science. Technically this has not been done to the degree where CF is embraced as viable. Power is not the issue.

    • daniel maris

      Great news! A claim of 2-3W excess heat! Also, interesting they seem happy to take Rossi and DGT seriously.

  • buffalo

    bob,for your next experiment plz do me a favour,run in pure hydrogen.forget about the nobel gases brother,they may very well interfere with lenr or even loading.lets go mad with this wire like rossi does with his nickel powders,in pure H2 gas.the goal is to achieve a clear breakaway tangent of excess heat

    • Dear Buffalo,

      I sure will.

  • georgehants

    The Wonderful open investigation of Cold Fusion demonstrated today is exactly as everything would be in a non-capitalist World.
    Nothing to hide, everything just investigated with fun and openness for the benefit of mankind.

    • Chris

      “Nothing to hide, everything just investigated with fun and openness for the benefit of mankind.”

      Much like academic research when it isn’t bound to industries which fund it. Unfortunately (and contrary to what I first thought) Celani did not conduct his experiment just as an INFN employee; he owes it to an investor who does not yet want to be named and with the agreement that Celani will get the credit but this investor will own the method. This is why Celani supplied the wire to the MFMP instead of detailing how to make it.

      So there is something to hide, just as in Rossi’s case.

    • sorry george, even if I agree that that team is open, honest, the reason they do that is that they want the truth to emerge from the crony mainstream, so they can … make business…

      It is sad for me to admit, but one big advantage of capitalism is that people battle for some ideas, as if they were hoping to get personal advantage of it… because they do.

      At small scale, in a community (like was software in the 80s), sharing can be working well, and even better. But with dummy selfish users, under hard time, with cost-killers, with investors or pension fund clients, you need more contract and value less benevolent trust…

      I could imagine Celani, Defkalion, Piantelli, Brillouin, sitting in a room and agreeing to start exchanging patent licenses to compete with Rossi, the Japanese, the Chinese… agreeing on a common pool of shared research, agreeing to share new discoveries at low price, against sharing costs and intermediate data…
      that have a name : COOPETITION…

      MFMP seems to be such a room for coopetitors. A safe neutral room with benevolent hosts.
      And first mission of all the coopetitors is to break the Berlin Wall of Denial. They do it well.

      • georgehants

        AlainCo, please don’t be sorry, discussion, disagreement, is the lifeblood of advancement.
        I believe that one day beyond my lifetime people will realise that each of us working only in jobs that benefit all and not having such things as one person living a life of extreme ease because they where left money and/or position (extracted from capitalism) from there predecessors, against a nurse struggling to qualify and then working many years, mainly just to pay the mortgage and the gas bill will end.
        I believe when most are freed from their self chosen, “slavery of capitalism” then life could be good for all.
        One just needs to base everything on production and hours worked with no profits to see that everyone could retire at about 50 and everybody could have everything they need or fairly want from the earliest age.
        No money worries just an agreement that everybody works a fair working life of their choice for the benefit of all.

        • Rockyspoon

          There is nothing wrong with capitalism–it is not slavery, and it isn’t inferior to socialism/communism.

          If you think centralized planning, which is the definition of socialism/capitalism, is superior to capitalism, I’m afraid you, george hants, have been brainwashed. I’ve worked in both situations–socialism and capitalism, and there is a world of difference–with free-market capitalism being the clear winner.

          Do some research into the pros/cons of capitalism vs socialism/communism and you’ll know the truth. Just don’t get sucked into the hype or distortions of those pushing socialism/communism as the panacea for mankind, because it isn’t.

          Or consider what the Pilgrims discovered back in 1620 when they tried socialism – and utterly failed at it.

          “For several years, the colony raised crops in “communal service.” It didn’t work. So Bradford instituted one historic change that was to ensure the flourishing success of the colony and change American history ever afterwards. Communal agriculture was abandoned and private planting was established. Here is Governor Bradford’s own account from the original source documents:

          “This was very successful. It made all hands very industrious, so that much more corn was planted than otherwise would have been by any means the Governor or any other could devise, and saved him a great deal of trouble, and gave far better satisfaction. The women now went willingly into the field, and took their little ones with them to plant corn, while before they would allege weakness and inability; and to have compelled them would have been thought great tyranny and oppression.

          The failure of this experiment of communal service, which was tried for several years, and by good and honest men, proves the emptiness of the theory of Plato and other ancients, applauded by some of later times–that the taking away of private property, and the possession of it in community, by a commonwealth, would make a state happy and flourishing; as if they were wiser than God. For in this instance, community of property (so far as it went) was found to breed much confusion and discontent and retard much employment which would have been to the general benefit and comfort.”

          Source: “Of Plymouth Plantation”.

          Having an abundant source of clean, cheap energy isn’t going to suddenly make socialism/communism superior to capitalism. Why? Because it won’t make humans work harder; indeed, they’ll tend to be less industrious.

          As early as 1620, we’ve known that “an agreement that everybody works a fair working life of their choice for the benefit of all” as you suggest is just a pipe dream. Socialism is an inferior system because it appeals to one of the least desirable traits found in humans–laziness.

          I’ve experienced it; I’ve seen it with my own eyes.

          • georgehants

            Rockyspoon, Ha, you will make no friends on these pages by childish comments such as —-
            “I’m afraid you, george hants, have been brainwashed.”
            If you wish to put your points again without the insults then I will happily show your errors of thinking.
            I will just say that, your imagining that I am talking about communism shows your lack of understanding and grasp of another persons views.
            First get information and Facts, then debate or discuss.
            If you do not come back for a discussion on my views of, no money, no profit, just everything based on production and hours worked, you will appear as a baseless opinion talker.
            Thank you

          • georgehants

            Admin I have relied to Rockyspoon which has gone to moderation, as the only dodgy word in my reply is a copy quote of his I find that strange.

        • HeS

          @:“slavery of capitalism”

          I know “slavery of socialism” from personal experience. Also, I do not recommend.

  • georgehants

    I just pick up that Mr. Rossi’s responses feel as if communication with the certificators is proceeding at a normal pace.
    November 12th, 2012 at 10:06 PM
    Dear Andrea Rossi,
    Equipment which generates radio frequencies often need a Federal Communications Commission certification to ensure that Radio Frequency Interference is not an issue. I was under the impression that your Home E-Cat was using ‘frequencies’ to help to control or augment the reaction. It is possible that certain shielding may be necessary to insure that these frequencies do not affect other devices in the vicinity.
    I wish you the best,
    Andrea Rossi
    November 13th, 2012 at 4:04 AM
    Dear Antenna:
    Now I understand. Yes, the certifiers told me they have taken in account this issue, but we have a shielding that forbids radio frequency interferences. Anyway, to install a plant are necessary the local Authirities permissions, so that if this particular authorization will be requested, we will obtain it. Interesting question.
    Warm Regards,

    • Peter_Roe

      Thanks, George. ‘Antenna’ has an interesting approach to asking ‘do you still use RF stumulation in the LT e-cat?’. The reply is also interesting, in that a requirement for some kind of Faraday cage for shielding (assumed to be over and above the outer metal casing) indicates a fairly powerful RF injection somewhere in the system.

      For what it’s worth, my guess (as ever) is that RF modulated current is periodically applied to the resistance heating coils to synchronise some kind of standing (phonon?) wave and re-start the reaction. Just possibly other frequencies may also be used to disrupt any standing waves in order to reduce the reaction rate to allow stable control.

      • georgehants

        Dear Andrea Rossi
        An aspect of your discovery that I have found fascinating is the fact that the addition of energy from an outside source is required from time to time. Have you developed a formula which describes the intervals when and for what duration external energy is required? If you have, can you reveal whether the formula works for the ecat and the newer hot cat?
        Kind regards,
        Andrea Rossi
        November 13th, 2012 at 11:27 AM
        Dear Bob:
        Yes, we have developed a formula, and it is, obviously, confidential.
        Warm Regards,
        November 13th, 2012 at 9:12 AM

  • Peter_Roe

    Bob Greenyer

    I wonder what plans your team has to publish your findings when you are in a position to do so. I assume you’ll lodge copies with but will you also be publishing more widely through a ‘preprint server’ such as

    You may have already answered this query somewhere but if so, I’m afraid that I missed it.

  • georgehants

    One only has to visit ECN to find full conformation of this research.
    Humans evolving backward new research claims

    • George, off-topic, from vortex foundational essays in physics Especially “The Universe Is Not a Computer” by Ken Wharton, He recommends approaching the universe with the Lagrangian rather than Newtonian problem setup. Although the approaches are mathematically equivalent in classical mechanics, they are philosophically different, and in any case only the Lagrangian approach works in quantum theory. All this is in principle well known, but the philosophy of science is still somehow stuck with the exclusively Newtonian world picture.
      – In a nutshell, when you say “all is quantum”, this essayist says “all is Lagrange” which is almost the same thing, but technically easier.

      • georgehants

        Pekka, Thanks for links, many Wonderful theories and hypothesise from the earliest times, our ancestors where not afraid to dream and gain information from any source, without it having to be of a reductionist doctrine.
        But they then later also had to contend with dogmatic religion, etc.
        I don’t think it matters which theory turns out to be correct at any time, only that we move forward to the Truth and not constantly be stuck in the dogmatic mud.
        Open-minds can only come when there are not pressures to conform or gain materially.
        Removing capitalism would end much of the gain aspect and in most cases removing “expert qualified opinion” would remove more false delay.
        We would be left with fear of the unknown, that is a psychological affair that needs to be turned into Wonder and excitement.
        Everything is Quantum, but what lies behind the Quantum.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      georgehants – “Humans evolving backward new research claims.”

      That’s the way the welfare state works. Retrogression to serfdom.

  • Barry

    The transparancy and videos are great. Thanks guys. From their website I just watched how the roof developed a leak, traveled down a beam and dripped right onto the Celani laptop. This is better than TV.

  • Redford

    No more data stream or it’s just me ?

  • Ged

    So at the moment, seems it’s jumping between 2.8 and 3.5 excess watts. But two main points:

    1. The device hasn’t reached the expected proper activation temperature for the reaction (270 C+), due to the glass.
    2. It’s still too early. Celani ran the device for 100 hours before seeing a 10 watt of excess, so we are not there yet time wise, but the rise in excess is on course to reaching that point.

    Things are actually looking pretty good so far. Very very interesting data.

    • Andre Blum

      The fact that the excess power seems to be (inversely) related to the ambient temperature scares me.
      When (i suppose) the heating sprang on this morning, excess power dropped significantly. (plot ambient and P_xs in one graph and you will see the symmetry)

      Does not bode well for the reliability of the excess heat number?

      • Hal

        I have noticed a small spike in p-xs approx every 6 mins, coincides with a drop in one of the lines at 100, is that the ambient temperature one? (my eyesight not good enough) What could be causing that? AND more importantly when ambient goes down why does p-xs go up? I’ve probably missed something!

        • Ged

          The line I see dropping is the power in line, which means that P_xs goes up in small symmetrical spikes.

      • Ged

        Ambient is flat as far as I see, I don’t know at all what you mean.

        The only line that is inversely proportional is the input line. The input periodically drops slightly, which means that the P_xs calculation goes up slightly during those dips. Ambient temp is smooth as butter.

      • Ged

        Let me put it another way too: Ambient is also not a big factor in the P_xs calculation, as it changes the P_out only slightly (glass temp – ambient temp). Nor would minor ambient swings have much an effect (you’d need several C of swings without any change in the glass temp), which we do not even see in the first place. It doesn’t mean really anything for the validity of excess heat.

        Now, the ripples in the P_in have a much bigger impact, and again, those are what causes the slight P_xs bumps from what I see in the data (the magnitude is in agreement). Even so, the P_xs is solidly, stably positive, and never dips negative. The only question now is if it’ll continue to rise over time. If there was some way to get the reactor to hold a little more heat so it can read the critical temp, without having to stop the experiment, that would help.

        Edit: Ok, I can confirm, looking at the raw ambient and P_xs numbers, there is no synchrony between them I can detect (note ambient is fluctuating in a 0.2 C range). When ambient goes up, the P_xs can go down or up, and vice versa. It is insensitive to such minor ambient variations.

        • Ged

          Actually, looks like when it comes to the T_glassout temperature rise calculation it is sensitive to ambient (since it is that absolute temp minus ambient), and with us so close to the noise floor, I was wrong in that way. This is quite a bit more complex than the data feed was showing. I dunno though, ambient was barely moving around, but I have only had a narrow time slice snapshot of things; I guess a longer term view may show that.

          P_in ripples are grossly obvious, and since that power supply fan is the culprit, I would think ambient might potentially affect the triggering of that to turn on or off.

    • Peter_Roe

      It’s interesting that the ‘activation temperature’ of 270C is very close to the point at which Akiya Matsuda has determined that hydrogen absorption by nickel changes from exothermic to endothermic (250C). Perhaps there is a connection, but as there is no hydrogen atmosphere it can’t be the obvious one.

      • Ged

        It would suggest a change in atomic events if absorption goes from exothermal to endothermal. It might be that transition in the behavior of the nickel lattice that is priming it for the LENR event… Very interesting idea, Peter! If there was some way to test this directly, it could be a very important experiment.

    • Gerrit

      Ged, thanks for the wrap up.

      100 hours is approx 3 more days.

  • georgehants

    Herb Gillis
    November 13th, 2012 at 11:56 AM
    Andrea Rossi:
    Do you think it is possible that just one of the isotopes 62 and 64 of Ni are involved, and not both? Or, are both of these isotopes (together) essential? Also; do you have evidence that either (or both) of these heavy isotopes are being consumed (transmuted to something else) in the reaction?
    If not, then they must be acting as catalysts in some way.
    Andrea Rossi
    November 13th, 2012 at 12:29 PM
    Dear Herb Gillis:
    Both work, both essential, some transmutes in copper as a side effect.
    Warm Regards,

  • Hi All,

    We have released a new video on Calibration and a discussion on the basis for excess power calculation.

    Experiment is still ongoing, increase in estimated excess power based on current assumptions is rising but seemingly inverse to pressure drop and resistivity increasing so unconvinced we are seeing the effect as of yet through the noisy power supply and margin of error. Not surprising considering the IR losses in the system and lack of being comfortably in the trigger region.

    We will venture onwards.

    • Ged

      Shoot. I have noticed that noisy powersupply in the data, that is a pain, but at least quite fixable.

      The resistivity going up is what makes me wonder most.

      Still though, plenty of time to go, and the more this rises the more confidence we can have.

      • Sanjeev

        I don’t think it will go anywhere above noise floor. After two days it would have shown something. The dT is almost zero, not even noticeable fluctuations towards positive.

        P_xs is a calculated value (very indirectly calculated) so I don’t have so much faith on it, I’m simply watching the T_Glassout, which is not rising much above the baseline value.

        This run has proven very useful anyway. You know what are the issues – faulty power, leakage etc etc, so the next run should bring us closer to the goal.

        • Spot on Sanjeev, this is science, it is about testing theory through experiment to derive theory to drive experimental design and following the evidence. It is hard graft, patience and analysis to converge on a conclusion that can be easily repeated.

          It is about using what we know we know and what we know we dont know to form a path to test. That is to say, it is about identifying the known knowns and the known unknowns and accounting for them and then trying to establish the unknown unknowns and incorporating their influence into the overall understanding.

        • Ged

          Those are very good points, Sanjeev.

    • Hal

      The last 45 min have been amazing to watch!!

  • Bob

    Very nice work everyone! Much, much better than reality TV (Which is not real anyway!) and talk about a truly world impacting subject!

    My question is related to measuring other telltale signs of LENR. Are any ongoing measurements of radioactivity (gamma,etc.) being made and if so what are the current results? Were there measurements during the heating of the non-loaded wire to establish a base line?

    I have not been able to see the video, so I ask if and what shielding may be in place to guard against possible radiation? (Or is the theory that the possibility of such radiation is minimal as to not require it?)

    I ask this for two reasons: 1) A base line comparison to the active wire might lend more positive proof of a nuclear type event. 2) Reading various posts over the past year, one hears of a wide range of measurements concerning radiation. From none to a very detectable amount.

    Secondly, are there any plans to test for transmutation? I.E. a before and after analysis of wire material. Even if excess heat is not fully proved during this initial run, the detection of certain radiation and transmutation would be of significant finding. I suppose testing for transmutation might be too destructive of the wire however.

    Again, an excellent project!

  • Ake Malhammar

    Apparently you are preparing a new calibration with He. I don’t know if you are aware of this but unless the calibration gas has the same natural convection properties as the test gas there will always be a discrepancy between the inner and the outer temperature readings.

    Natural convection is determined by the Rayleigh number. This number is very sensitive to the pressure, so if well calculated the test gas and the calibration gas could be of different nature provided that the pressure is accordingly adjusted.

    Have you assured this ?