New Poll: Optimistic or Pessimistic Regarding E-Cat?

It’s been a while since news of the E-Cat came on the scene, and we are still waiting to see the commercialization of E-Cat technology. I’m interested to see how the readership of this site stands in terms of the level of optimism or pessimism regarding the eventual success of E-Cat technology as a new and useful form of energy.

Please vote in the poll (in the right sidebar) and feel free to eleborate on your position in the comments below.

  • Very optimist for the “E4” successes both technically
    and commercially.

  • Pweet

    I’ve had to answer that I am increasingly pessimistic.
    I could leave it at that and move on,… or I could explain why. I will do that.
    Over a year ago after viewing various videos of different tests I was pessimistic,.. but hopeful that I might be wrong.
    In the video of the test shown to Mats Lewan, the output level of the steam was nowhere near consistent with the claimed power output level of around 5kw. It was difficult to judge in the short term but it was clear that had there been a steam hose dumping 5 kw into 3 or 4 litres of water in a plastic bucket, the water in the bucket would have boiled within 5 minutes. The video ran over a considerable period and the water was not even steaming. (See how much water you can boil in a 2.4kw electric kettle and decide whether this is consistent with what is shown in this video.)
    This was very strange since it was claimed that e-cat units had been in operation and heating a factory for up to a year, so it shouldn’t have been difficult to show a working device when a person of some note and possible influence wanted to see one working.
    In consideration of this, you would have to conclude the most obvious reason a working device was not shown was because there wasn’t one which did work. The same applies to the Steve Krivit demo.

    The output level of steam in the demonstration to Steve Krivit was definitely nowhere near consistent with the claimed power output of 5 kilowatts as claimed. It was more consistent with an output of only the heating element, that is, around 1 Kw.
    Although the claim of dry steam being invisible is correct, the steam which had condensed to wet steam, and which was visible, was an undeniable indicator of the steam velocity.
    It was very low and no way consistent with the claimed power output.
    Again, the logical conclusion here is that this particular e-cat was not working.

    I was very enthusiastic on the later early October 2011 demonstration where a heat exchange was used,.. right up until A.R. was asked afterwards where the output thermocouple was placed.
    He put his finger on the coolant output pipe right next to the high temperature end of the heat exchange and said something to the effect, “I place the sensor right here.”
    It was immediately clear from this that the output temperature readings were in error on the high side and were probably meaningless.
    You would also have to come to the conclusion that this point was specifically and critically chosen to give the desired result rather than an accurate indication of the effectiveness of the technology.

    Finally, for the megawatt unit about a year ago (28 October 2011), it is more difficult to prove either way for this test because of it’s size and the abundance of external equipment, however, from the video it is clear that the separate generator set supplying the supposed small amount of energy to run the fans and water pumps was running at a high power setting.
    You can see in the few frames that show the exhaust pipe of the gen set, the flapper valve is wide open and the audio sounds like the genset is running at considerable power.
    It’s hard to be sure on this test and if this was the only test I would have been inclined to give it the benefit of the doubt and shown some enthusiasm. However, taken in conjunction with the fact that none of the previous tests have ever been convincing, I have to regard this test also as being totally unconvincing. The confirmation of this is also in the fact that the device apparently sat there for a long time undelivered, and from what I have seen there have been no further deliveries since.
    If the test results had been anywhere near the excellence claimed, logically there would have been many more sales by now.

    For me, what sealed my pessimism was, when offered a million dollars by Dick Smith for confirmation from an independent authority that the device can produce a meaningful energy output, the offer was refused and a barrage of insults was delivered instead, along with the statement that he doesn’t need DIck Smiths million dollars. Really?
    Anyone in the position of establishing a production industry can use another million dollars.
    A simple task of boiling a barrel of water in front of his friends at the Bologna university, or any university, woud probably have been sufficient to prove the point.
    It wasn’t done.

    So,.. this long after all these tests, what do we have?
    The original e-cat device which would have been quite adequate for many applications and particularly for home heating and water heaters etc, seems to have fallen by the wayside. Promised deliveries have been extended out years into the indefinite future.
    This is supposedly because of difficulties in getting certifications etc.
    To get a device certified you need a finished item and it has to be exactly as the one you intend to sell. It can’t be different in any aspect. If the device offered for sale is different to the device submitted for certification then the certification does not apply. That is a reasonable rule. You can’t submit a rolls Royce for certification and then sell a model T and say it’s covered by the same certificate.
    Why is this relevant?
    Well, in all the publicity and web sites selling the A.R. technology, not one picture of a finished e-cat has been released.
    That’s more than strange in my opinion considering numerous photographs of other devices and tests have been published.
    It’s a clear indication that such a device does not exist.

    What does exist now, is the claim of a new, better, more efficient, higher temp, higher COP device which has the backing of new partners etc etc. In other words, something to drag the whole charade on for another number of indeterminate years.
    Its the same story we heard 2 years ago with previous partnerships. What happened to them?
    Obviously nothing. They left. Why?
    I find it hard to imagine they left if they were convinced there was a working device ready to market, or even close to market.

    I can only conclude that the change of technology to the present device is for the purpose of directing attention away from the previous undeliverable device which probably doesn’t work, to the now promised new and better device,.. some time in the future.
    I mean really, how come with all these people working on this technology, one person working with minimal high tech equipment can come up with not one, but two technologies which produce such large power outputs from LENR, and still not have a publishable provable theory on how or why it works. It is possible but you would have to admit, the odds are hugely against it, and getting higher every day that an irrefutable demonstration is not made of such claimed brilliance.

    So,.. am I more pessimistic now than I was a year ago?
    Sorry to say but yes. And that’s from somebody who has high hopes that something will eventually come from the cold fusion/LENR technology. But, I’m now 99% pessimistic that anything useful will come from the A.R. e-cat or hot-cat or cats of any temperature.

    I would love to be proved wrong but at this point I’m not expecting to be.
    A.R. send me a Christmas present and do just one test that indicates your gadget can boil a kilolitre of water with minimal power input.
    After all the talk and promises you owe it to the world.

    (Gee,.. that took a lot longer than just clicking the “more pessimistic” button.)

    • Mark

      PWEET,
      Thank You so much for Your great summary on Rossi.
      When Rossi said, that he is working as hard
      as Americans in 1942, after Pearl Harbor,
      the only difference is that everybody then could
      see the “Liberty” ship every two-three days
      leaving the yard. We don’t even know the name of
      the university doing the E-CAT evaluation.
      With all LENR theories having big flaws, being
      rather conjectures than theories, the fate of
      LENR is hinged only on Rossi, Defkalion, Brilloin.
      The year of 2012 was a year of hope, I hate
      to say that 2013 might be a year of disappointment.

    • GreenWin

      “For me, what sealed my pessimism was, when offered a million dollars by Dick Smith for confirmation from an independent authority that the device can produce a meaningful energy output, the offer was refused and a barrage of insults was delivered instead…”

      “Never trust anyone who wants what you’ve got. Friend or no, envy is an overwhelming emotion.” Eubie Blake

      • Pweet

        I agree. But in this case Dick Smith didn’t even ask to be at the proof demonstration. He simply asked for it to be by a dependable and believable group and listed a number of groups which would be acceptable. He also offered to accept any alternatives if preferred.
        Some groups which had previously worked with A.R. were in the list, such as Bologna University and Uppsala University. A.R. must consider these groups trustworthy because he says he is still working with them. And yet he did not take up the offer.
        The only plausible reason for not submitting the device to test and picking up an easy million dollars is the device does not work as claimed.
        I also now believe this is the same reason the device has been put on the back burner and attention has been re-directed to the all new but also not available hot-cat.
        You would have to wonder, given all the insults which were thrown in Dick’s direction, you would have thought A.R would have done the proof demo just for the pleasure of relieving Dick Smith of his million dollars. But he didn’t.
        I don’t think this was because he had any concern for Dick Smiths financial well being.

  • AstralProjectee

    I am the “Same Level of Optimism”, but that optimism is high.

    • ivan_cev

      Rossi is not a person you could trust, he is not open and is full of secrets I am very pessimistic about all the ecats

  • AB

    I’m increasingly pessimistic about Rossi. He starts many projects and has yet to keep his promise of independent testing on any of them.

    • Perhaps one should ask three questions: what is the likelihood that (A) LENR exists, (B) Rossi has LENR, (C) Rossi will win in the LENR market. A and B are what “Mahron” asked in ECN last January, to which many people responded. The scale was 1-4: (1) no way it can be true, (2) wait and see, sceptical, (3) wait and see, optimist, (4) full confidence. I was A4B4 then and A4B4C3 now.

      • correction: question (C) should better be “win in the energy market”.

      • John-xyz

        Those are all good choices but my preferred choice would be “I wish I’d never heard of LENR”. I’ve been checking this website for a year now, I wonder how long I have to wait until there is conclusive proof either way (of Rossi’s ecat).

        • Neil Hambleton

          Have you ever heard of “Tokamak”?
          Fifty years of lavish public funding and still no “conclusive proof either way”.
          Be patient.

          • Tokamak is trying a well defined hard problem, and even if no results, there have been much progress… not enough.
            they are like were F&P in toyota lab. having something sure, real, but unsuable.

            the only difference is the theory is well known, and the reason it is hard are known too. a failure is easy to understand as not a reason to deny the reality of hot fusion.

            for cold fusion the problem is that lazy scientists either :
            – not finding a way to explain it, decide it is artifact
            – not finding a way to explain it, decide it is new convenient physics

            in fact the error is to try to explain it, before mastering it experimentally… today we are sick of theories…
            since the 50s QM and general relativity worked so well, to explain but also to preduct and design, that people forgot that experiments rules over theory.

            ask why today we take decisions based on big mathematical models that fails to predict near future, and violate all pas facts , except the one they have been tuned on…

            we invest trillions on those bet, decide to waste money, block growth, thus kills millions of people, just like neolithic priest were scarifying virgin to call rain, avoid sun escape, buy good luck, or to block the sea raise.

            we need more pragmatism and less prediction.

          • GreenWin

            It is rather comical to hear people attempt to defend tokamak and the billions thrown at hot fusion. Dr. Robert Bussard who helped invent the concept, later in life called the whole mag confinement idea “a fraud.” White collar welfare.

            People whining about LENR not happening “fast” enough are T-rolls, – not the candy kind.

        • Jorge

          John,
          I see where you’re coming from. And it’s perfectly understandable. However we’re dealing with ground-breaking technologies. It takes time not only to get the scientific component clarified, but also the Engineering part, ergo, the part that make sit useful to the common people, up to a functional level. So we need to be patient

      • AB

        What is the likelihood of LENR existing? Highly likely.

        What is the likelihood of Rossi having LENR? More likely than not.

        What is the likelihood of Rossi bringing LENR to the market first? It seems increasingly unlikely. The ongoing pattern of Rossi starting a project, teasing the onlookers with promises of independent testing that he fails to keep, only to start another project is not a good sign no matter how one interprets it.

        • your position is the most pessimistic one can reasonably support.

          it is a good base hypothesis.

          • buffalo

            if any of these lenr guys come to market then i,l believe rossi has something.not one lenr device anywhere in the world is on the market as i write this,not even in china! The question is,why not?

          • because we start on earth to work seriously on LENr Ni+H since Rossi claims in 2011 (even if faked, it raised interest and people realised that ther was clear feasibility).

            2 years to design a reactor is quite fast… to make it industrial add 2 years.

          • buffalo

            hey alain.why r u so confident.who do u work for.seen any results? Can u give me a job there,i,l speed things up.

          • I don’t trusts my own eyes. so no need to see myself.
            I trust the structure of the claims, like you have to do to detect lies in a police interview. I take some value, moderate, to individual expert opinion, much more to network of expert opinion.
            I see also the orbits of people arounds. Indirect evidence are much more solid than videos.
            I also have no illusion on “scientific method” in the real world, I know the depth of denial, collusion, hierachy and conservatism in mainstream science that work well most of the time, but not always. I know some key fact in science hystory, and by the way the one of semiconductors… can help.

            I can detect loose job in articles, but i agree not the truth.
            I know about data incest enough, to detect who is lying, who is repeating the same data over and over, and who is creating real data over and over, addressing critics, pushing the limits, trying new protocols. who is really engineering, and who is telling fairy tales. I can also detect if there is some logic in the results, and if that logic if based on physics, in human dreams or budget motivations…

            The data are there since long.

            about industrial claims, I’m clearly too optimistic about time to market, like all engineers in that position would be. That was an error.

            LENR is real, and scientific paper claiming LENR experimentally are serious, even if some are imperfect, and some loose.. that is standard science.
            Opposing claims are clearly loose job, and recycled claims that look like pseudo-science… (I know that well, I fight pseudo-science quite often… there are patterns).

            For theories I’m very critic on most papers, even if I caught interest on some QM compatible theories (WL, Kim,…)… more curiosity that conviction.

            NiH is the recent breakthrough that finally let the hope of industrial application.
            It is needed to break the denial, because logically few fight against mainstream for fundamental science… only applications can motivate people to ruin their career. Note that without patent protection they have strong incentive to hide any serious positive result.

            For industrial application, given that LENR is real, that NiH have a good potential, there is no reason to be paranoid.
            Add to that the serious people and organizations that orbit around the “new Edison”… the budgets…
            to understand the negative point, some basic psychology, cognitive science, experience in corporate culture, in finance bubbles and other groupthink catastrophe. Roland benabou groupthink collective denial theory is the theoretical frame too.

            Rossi is maybe the counter example, and I won’t trust him for even keeping my bike. But orbiting peoples let me hope that he have something interesting. I feel however that he have all the capacity to ruin all. It will be a battle between him and his supporters.

            For Defkalion and Brillouin it seems that they behave like any technology startup… too optimistic, based on real research…

            I don’t work yet for anybody. who knows after, I’d like to…

          • Ryan

            Correction, not one LENR device that you are personally aware of. Thus your opinion should be taken with a grain of salt. There could very easily be things going on in the background that none of us are aware of or would have any right to know. Since development, for Rossi at least, is going industrial primarily at this point I see little reason that the average person would hear much at all.

        • Omega Z

          I’m holding steady. I’m confident we’ll see this come to market. Only question is how soon.

          I think what weighs on many peoples minds here is the decisions we see taking place. To build or not build Nuke plants. Cap & Trade, Increased Cap & Trade. It’s frustrating. All these things can cause or increase pessimism.

          I fully believe these things will continue for sometime even if Rossi & Siemens were on the Front page of every News Media Available Tomorrow. Only the Nuke plant Options would fall off the Table. Everything else will continue to be in play for some time to come. At least a Half Dozen Years.

          I base this on the shear numbers needed & the Time it will take to gear up for the new Technology. Just fulfilling additional demand will take possibly 5 years & decades to replace Existing systems. This means a new Gas powered plant built now will be nearing End of Life Cycle before E-Cats are ready to replace them.

          Just to give an indication of what I’m talking about: China is building the Equivalent of 2- 500 Megawatt Power Plants Per Week. That’s Output.

          Consider the Conversion Efficiency & E-cats having to cover it’s own power needs, Rossi(Or We All) need to produce approximately 3000- 1Mw Boilers Per Week. 72 Cores times 3000. (216,000 Cores) All assembled & tested then Built into power plants. Every Week.

          That’s a lot of Production facilities to be built. 1000’s of people to be trained. A lot of Money to be diverted from other projects while still maintaining the status quote & keeping the Economy from Crashing. You can’t let everything Grind to a Halt. The Logistics alone will take time to work out.

          AND This is Just China. Demand is growing worldwide. So we will see Conventional Power plants built for some time to come. More Wind, More Solar only at a slower pace. Even with a World Wide effort, I can see 5 years pass before they even get close to start replacing the Old Power Plants & this doesn’t include all the new Industries for desalinizing or Shipping & so-forth. It’ll take a while.

          • Gaurau

            I disagree with Omega.

            No sane investor except heavy coruupt government will invest into classic powerplants after bulletproof proof about Hot Cat or similar breakthrough tech. So no more new oldfashion powerplants except inertia (completion of 85% ready facilities).

          • Peter_Roe

            Gas generators are cheap, and the fuel looks like getting cheaper in many places, especially the US. Given that, as Omega says, it will be some time before CF boilers begin to become freely available, then it is still worthwhile building new gas generator capacity, even knowing that CF is coming. Of course, if an association with a large plant manufacturer such as GE were to become known, then it might make a lot of sense to buy your kit from them with a view to retrofitting with a hot cat boiler in due course.

          • Omega Z

            Gaurau

            Maybe I did a poor job of explaining. Plants take years to build before shovel turns earth. Most of these plants already planned will still be built over the 1st 5 years. You don’t put everything instantly on hold. It would cause Economic Chaos. You need an Economy to produce E-cats.

            If you need a new car today, you buy whats available today. Not the Model that wont be available for at least 5 years. You still have a life to live. It can’t be put on hold.

            Only Reason I believe Nuclear Plants will be stopped in short order would be because of Public Outcry due to long term problems with them. Waste handling after decommissioning being the Big 1.

            Any new Fossil plants will fill most of their Life Cycle. It Will take that long to build replacement E-cats to replace them with. It’s just Economics. Regardless how many you can gear up to build, They still cost & there’s a limited amount of money available at any given time. We could see a Major jump in Interest rates with everyone who will be vying for that money to invest in E-cat Generators. Corporations can afford higher interest rates then we can.

          • Bob

            It is my belief that we live in a time of unprecedented opportunities… unprecedented.

            Why not look at this as a one big opportunity instead of a big set problem 😉

            Was it not the singer in Stratovarius who said:

            “Hold on to your dream, somewhere there’s a beam
            Of hope which is guiding your way through the dark
            This is your chance, your love, your romance
            Hold on to your dream and never give up”

            Information travels with the speed of light and I think there is many people who would come together and work for free if they understood the implications of this technology you are talking about.

          • GreenWin

            Well put Bob. Many opportunities. For all levels of LENR power systems. Who knows when some off-brand 25kW Stirling genset might show up in Hong Kong, Sydney, Emeryville, New Delhi, Singapore??? Sold without “certification” but a solid track record of maintenance-free operation.

            Would DIY guys buy one and feed it into their main breaker box? Send the electric company a notice of long term “vacation” disconnect? Seems plausible.

    • John-xyz

      This is the thing. If Rossi doesn’t have the goods, what is his motivation for the whole shebang? There are probably 3 choices. He has a working ecat, he’s a scammer and he’s deluding himself. At the moment, none of these seem likely.

  • Gaurau

    I am very optimistic about Hot Cat and concurrently very pesimistic about iiinvventor’s inncreasingly pppaatho ggrrreeed.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    The biggest disappointment for me has been the domestic E-Cat. Rossi says the reason for the delay is UL certification, but he does not give any information on what specifically is holding up the certification. In fact we have not even seen a picture of the domestic E-Cat the certificators are working on, or where and if they are still working on the certification. I see no reason why Rossi could not show us the preliminary report on their progress toward certification. There is no reason why this should be kept secret.

    • MK

      UL has strict rules and is very conservative.
      Rossi wants to put a device in domestic use that works with an not yet unexplained nuclear process, which is claimed to be “harmless”. I understand some reluctancy here……

    • HeS

      I think that there will be no revolution. ECAT technology will slowly (10 years) implemented in industry and energy production. There will be no home devices based on this technology. If A.Rossi signed a contract with a large corporation, his partner (and US government:) will not allow the sale of licenses to other companies.

    • Pweet

      The certification process for this device should not be as difficult as has been suggested.
      If it was a high temperature and high pressure boiler to be put into public use then it would be difficult. However this is neither a high pressure boiler or a high temperature boiler. It is simply a low pressure water boiler operating at temperatures up to boiling point.
      The regulations for such boilers only require proof that the steam generated by the full output power of the device can be vented from a safety relief valve. This is no different to all hot water heaters which are sold on the open market. It would also have to be proven that the device can withstand the low pressures that the unit operates under. There appeared to be no indication of any high pressure circuits in any of the demonstrations.
      For A.R’s e-cat boiler, all that would be needed is to placard an input power of 2.5kw, a maximum power output of 10kw, and then show that the device is fitted with a relief valve certified as being able to vent all the steam capable of being generated at the stated maximum power output, plus a safety margin. Again, this is the same requirement as a domestic water heater.
      It is difficult to see any technical reason for a failure to gain certification on the device as described.
      This can only lead to the conclusion that the device is not as it is described.

      • Björn

        Well, the potential danger is a run away scenario that makes it very hot and starts a fire.

        • Pweet

          Yes,.. except A.R. guarantees that a thermal runaway is impossible because the reaction is self extinguishing at temperatures higher than normal.
          The testing authority would have to demonstrate that a thermal runaway is possible before thay could fail it on those grounds and I don’t believe they have done that.

          • Omega Z

            Pweet

            The Problem is the unknowns that may or may not exist. Unknown being the Key word.

            There’s many theories but no 1 accepted Theory which without 1 leaves unknowns to be concerned with. Until this is settled or a long period of Track Safety record set by the Industrial version, home units probably wont be available.

    • Pweet

      .

  • georgehants

    I have said before that Rossi has every right to run his “business” as he see’s fit in this capitalist World, which again shows the clear failures of capitalism.
    I also now feel, that with so many decisions being made around the World concerning energy production, that will effect many lives for decades and more to come, that his moral responsibility without giving away his “secrets” is to confirm NOW if he has a technology that is light years ahead of other Cold Fusion researchers.
    As then governments etc can have no excuse for not including Cold Fusion in their planning.
    Any further delay in third party conformation of the E-Cat advances of any kind, for any reason, is I think unjustified and will reflect on Mr. Rossi’s reputation as, caring for the World.

    • Peter_Roe

      Yes, I agree. While we observers have no special right to be kept informed, this is a critical time (as you say) because large decisions on energy are being taken right now. I personally find it hard to believe that after Fukushima that anyone could even be considering new nuclear builds – but they are, and only a viable alternative can head this off now.

      Unless Rossi can provide real proof of his claims regarding the ‘hot cat’ within just a few months, the nuclear, fracking, tarsands juggernaut will be in full swing, alongside a parallel universe ‘carbon trading’ scheme that will allow TPTB to financially maul us all once again.

    • GĂ©rard2012

      The time for secrets is over, that the truth must come.

      I am more optimistic about the LENR technology and even I’m sure its conclusion.
      We are entering a new field of physics and the understanding of our world through LENR.

      But Andrea Rossi is now winning the media battle. It shall publish a report by credible third parties (scientists known and recognized in the media). It must also be published in a newspaper recognized by fathers.

      It is now urgent to get out of his secret, and give evidence
      His new client must be aware of this, because today the commentators and even scientists may turn away from him and LENR technology.

      Skeptics and interests contrary to await a new energy this error. The enemies of the cold fusion can repeat the scenario discredit P & F and cold fusion.

      He must give evidence of his work, or it is a second time that cold fusion will be buried. AR client must understand that it is not his interest to make a secret of the new fire, for himself will lose all credibility with potential buyers.

      If AR and his client has official press conference with the media known, they are credible.

      If AR and client continuously remain in secret he become impostors.

      In french

      Le temps des secrets est terminé, celui de la vérité doit venir.

      Je suis de plus en plus optimiste pour la technologie Lenr et mĂȘme je suis certain de son aboutissement.

      Nous sommes entrée dans un nouveau domaine de la physique et de la compréhension de notre monde grùce au LENR.

      Mais Andréa Rossi doit maintenant gagner la bataille médiatique. Il doit faire publier un rapport par des tiers crédibles, (des scientifiques connus et reconnu dans les medias). Il doit se faire publier également par un journal reconnu par les pÚres.

      Il est urgent maintenant de sortir de son secret, et de donner les preuves

      Son nouveau client doit prendre conscience de cela, car aujourd’hui les commentateurs et mĂȘmes les scientifiques risquent de se dĂ©tourner de lui et de la technologie LENR.

      Les sceptiques et les intĂ©rĂȘts contraires a une nouvelle Ă©nergie attendent cette erreur. Les ennemis de la fusion froide peuvent rĂ©pĂ©ter le scĂ©nario qui a discrĂ©ditĂ© P&F et la fusion froide.

      Il doit donner les preuves de son travail, ou c’est bien une deuxiĂšme fois que la fusion froide sera enterrĂ©. le client de AR doit comprendre que cela n’est pas son intĂ©rĂȘt de faire un secret du nouveau feu, car lui-mĂȘme perdra tout crĂ©dit auprĂšs de futurs acheteurs.

      Si AR et son client se présente officiellement en conférence de presse avec les medias connu, ils sont crédibles.

      Si AR et son client continu restent dans le secret il deviennent des imposteurs.

      • Fibber McGourlick

        Mr. Peter Roe is certainly right about carbon taxing. It’s an inefficient and (politically) cowardly way to reduce carbon emissions. If put into place, it will turn out to be suffused with corruption and become one of the great boondoggles of all time. And once in place, it will stick to us like tar until LENR takes over the scene. A simple, clear carbon tax is all that’s required, but the word “tax” seems to have acquired some magic repellent quality over much of the world, and especially in the U.S. New taxes are sometimes necessary—to build the atom bomb to end the war in the pacific, to build the Panama Canal, to end the depression. But (many of) the wealthy hate all taxes, even they’re necessary to save our world, and, unfortunately, they seem to have the power to prevent them in many places, even when they make eminent sense. This may all sound a bit off-topic, but it isn’t. It isn’t because Mr. Rossi’s ecats—if they’re real–could put an end to this carbon trading boondoggle and to hot fusion and to many other overnment idiocies that are ruining us. Thus this plea: Mr. Rossi, tear down that wall! (To paraphrase a great man
) Show the world your Ecat discoveries are real, and please do it now. Make the boys who did the independent tests of your Hot Cat get off their butts and release the results of their tests.

        • georgehants

          Good stuff Fibber.
          But for me no taxes, no money. (long story)

        • GreenWin

          Fib, trouble with independent testing; to remain “independent” the inventor has little or no influence. The third parties can take as long as they are paid to.

        • Robert Mockan

          People use carbon. Thus it provides another way to control them.
          The government can not beat carbon with a club to make it give money, but it can beat people who use carbon, with a club (taxes), to make them give money.

          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xbp6umQT58A

          This game is as old as … farming.

          • GreenWin

            Interesting Robert. Imagine, for a moment, if the Overseers of the human farms – were not human. But inter-dimensional (galactic) colonists. Not a big stretch considering an infinite universe.

            Such colonists would then follow the exact prescription in this video. Basically, scare the sheit outta people to get ’em to work for you.

            Sigh. Sometimes I am disappointed in the image. OTOH, without human slavery and bondage, we would never get great stories like… Exodus.

          • Robert Mockan

            One of the (many) reasons I put no stock in conspiracy theories about insidious evil ET overlords, is because there is nothing on this world that could possibly interest them. This is just one world. Even with our primitive science the hundreds of planets discovered around other stars appear to be the rule rather than exception. And all the recent biophysics research appear to show that living organisms can form through abiogenesis, and that process will happen on any planet with water orbiting their stars at “habitable zone” distances. Given the ratio of such planets to stars investigated thus far, that number will be thousands within just a thousand light years of our solar system. So I conclude the insane ruling oligarchs on this world are: 1. Human 2. Insane 3. Need to be destroyed.
            Then we can all get on with living life like it was meant to be.

            Here is what abiogenesis is all about.
            http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U6QYDdgP9eg

          • Peter_Roe

            We are perfectly capable of enslaving one another without any assistance. After many thousands of years of practice a parasitic layer of society seems to have become quite good at it.

    • AstralProjectee

      What kind of timeline are talking here? Like when is the first major deal going to be reached in eg, hot fusion or whatever your referring to?

      • georgehants

        Astral, sorry don’t understand.

        • AstralProjectee

          When you said:

          “I also now feel, that with so many decisions being made around the World concerning energy production, that will effect many lives for decades and more to come, that his moral responsibility without giving away his “secrets” is to confirm NOW”

          I thought that you meant hot fusion and other projects will possibly get a lot of money soon, and if we don’t say, “hey guys there is an alternative” then the government could agree to pay billions for unneeded hot fusion or other useless energy projects.

          Thus my question is what kind of timeline are we talking. So if we are going to possibly give out billions for a specific hot fusion project in 3 months then you could say: “Rossi needs to prove his device empirically to the world by no later than 3 months since we have this hot fusion project that is going to suck a bunch of money out of the economy unnecessarily. On top of all these other energy decisions that we need to address with this information.”

          I think, like you said there is multiple decisions going on in the energy sector. Huge decisions. So my simple question is when are these decisions going to really start.

          Peace.

          • georgehants

            Astral, now I see, sorry to put you to that trouble.
            As I said above —
            “Any further delay in third party conformation of the E-Cat advances of any kind, for any reason, is I think unjustified and will reflect on Mr. Rossi’s reputation as, caring for the World.”

          • MikeS87

            Yes .. but I wonder why Black Light Power has yet to come out with product, can anyone comment on that?

          • JamesThomas

            According to their website: “The goals are a 100 W unit in 2012 and a 1.5 kW unit by 2013.”

            So we should hear something any day now.

      • Chris

        The only aspect where my optimism wanes is Rossi’s commercial plan. I’ve come to hope that he’ll have plenty of competitors. It would serve him right if he got dwarfed by them or, preferably, if they found something better.

        Concerning these things on the whole, my doubts have been decreasing.

  • Peter N.

    I am optimistic. If we see commercial companies buying e-cat. The real proof shows that they can save energy (money). No such company will continue buying if it doesn’t save money.

  • Tangled Connections

    Why would big energy providers invest in retrofitting their power stations if they knew home generation was just round the corner? This makes me pessimistic about the likelihood of a CH+P home unit in the near future, especially from Rossi as he is probably making deals with the tech suppliers of those energy companies.

    Still very optimistic on LENR in general and very optimistic that Rossi has and will deliver exactly what he states in the Hot Cat.

    • For a largish block of flats, 1 MW scale would actually be suitable. The reactor could be located nearby the building and taken care of by the janitor service of the housing cooperative. If the 1 MW device is already approved for power plants, it should be okay for this application as well.

      Even if home units would be certified, having one E-cat per flat might not be realistic in many cases because of space and coolant connection requirements for example. Furthermore, since the control timescale is about one hour, if one uses it for electricity production for a single home only, one wastes a lot of energy or else one must invest in a rather large battery pack. Whereas if one shares a 1 MW reactor with 100 flats, the overall efficiency is better because the power consumption is more even.

      • Tangled Connections

        Yes I agree micro grids seem to be the best compromise between national generation companies and the individual consumers. This would hopefully enable some of the benefits (mainly economic) to be enjoyed by individuals. Unfortunately I don’t think there is a precedent for this approach in the UK so might be quite a timescale to get agreement and infrastructure in place.

        I still hold some hope for off grid home units as I watch the related heat to power and battery tech innovations unfold, but not soon.For me, it is only these units that will be truly disruptive of the energy monopolies that stifle real human and societal development. Without them, the e-cat only empowers the power companies.

        • How does block of flat heating typically work in the UK? Is it district heating (remote heat from a heating station usually a few km away) or a gas or coal boiler in the basement of the building which serves all the flats? If it’s the latter then why couldn’t it use a 1 MW E-cat equally well?

          • Tangled Connections

            Mostly people just get a gas or electric supply to their flat and heat their homes individually. I just pulled this info from UK Energy department doc re district heating, …

            “While district heating has been deployed in the UK since the 1950’s, it has achieved only a low market penetration and currently provides less than 2% of UK heat demand. This is in stark contrast to the position in many other European countries; in Finland and Denmark, for example, district heating is the dominant heat source, accounting for 49% and 60% of total heat supply respectively.”

            So if we have only 2% district heating we have even less at your second scenario.

            Much better chances for this approach in the rest of Europe. I think the ability to generate heat will eventually be trickled out to individuals.

            The really big prize still has to be ‘free electricity’ and all the associated benefits. This is where i feel majorly vested interests will come to play, probably under the guise of safety concerns initially. I hope I am wrong and that the tech will be made available for everyone when it arrives.

          • ROBERTM

            I am not optimistic or pessimistic. I just want to see proof.

        • GreenWin

          The UK “Climate Change” Minister Greg Barker, is supposed to raise the fee-in tariff for home CHP as of February this year. UK climate office suggests they want to see 1M micro-CHP systems installed in British homes by 2020.

          Looks like a lot of lip service actually. But it indicates that governments are stuck when LENR becomes better known. It IS the solution to “climate” issues. It lowers home owners’ energy cost and contributes to the greening of the national grid.

          http://www.businessgreen.com/bg/news/2143492/micro-chp-set-feed-tariff-boost

          In the US, Energy Secretary Steve Chu endorses the use of “District” CHP systems – large scale for places like medical centers. More like what is suggested here albeit at higher energy densities.

          http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/2/prweb9165794.htm

          Multi-family dwellings are good targets for 1MW LENR/CHP systems. If it was CCHP (heat, power, cooling) even better. A pilot development say in Arizona would be ideal demonstration. System maintenance would be via co-op energy fees.

    • GreenWin

      Looks like more details from Piantelli indicate a secondary material, either boron or lithium is used to increase proton dependent heat initiated by proton capture reactions. One reaction is:
      H + 1B -> 12C + 15.957 MeV

      For Lithium:
      H + 7Li -> 8Be(a) + 17.255

      Piantelli claims the distance between first and second materials (in cm) determines the the efficacy of the secondary reaction and contribution to total heat. Ruby is carrying the patent details at Cold Fusion Now! Thanks Ruby.

      It would appear that we will see many different manifestations of LENR heat in commercial and experimental products. All of which bodes well according to the new understanding of energy abundance. I therefor have an increasing pessimism toward use of fission, and fossils.

      • Sandy

        The Patterson Power Cell contained lithium sulfate (Li2SO4). Patterson was granted a U.S. patent on his “cold fusion” device. His patent cites the Fleischmann/Pons cold fusion patent.

        The perforated aluminum sheet that Nanospire is using in its collapsing-cavitation-bubble device probably contains about 10 percent boron.

        Palladium electrodes alloyed with boron yield the best results in F/P type cold fusion cells.

        Lithium and boron appear to be catalysts for cold fusion/LENR reactions.

        Is boron Rossi’s secret catalyst?

        • GreenWin

          Sandy, where have you been?

          • just passed by New York to see friends?
            8(

            Sorry for the dark humor… hope people there manage. (not easy. seen similar turmoil 26dec1999).

        • Peter_Roe

          Possibly not the catalyst but like Piantelli, AR does appear to use boron for energy capture:

          “[0030] In particular, the inventive apparatus is coated by boron layers and lead plates both for restraining noxious radiations and transforming them into energy, without generating residue radiations and radioactive materials.”

          http://appft1.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO1&Sect2=HITOFF&d=PG01&p=1&u=/netahtml/PTO/srchnum.html&r=1&f=G&l=50&s1=20110005506.PGNR.

        • Peter_Roe

          Possibly the phrase “noxious radiations” is rather inadvisable if at some point you may want to gain safety certification for home use.

  • jacob

    well,

  • A Ashfield

    The doubting Thomases should have a look at http://www.lenrproof.com There is no doubt that LENR exists but of course the E-Cat is not yet proven beyond dispute.

    What so many seem to be missing is the time it takes to develop a new device like the E-Cat from scratch. It normally takes at least two years from invention to UL certification and this is entirely new, so will take longer. The early version is not such a great advance when one can get a COP 4 from a heat pump and you then have to hook it up to the house.

    The Hot Cat is definitely worth waiting for and using gas rather than electricity a big cost advantage. If it has a COP 11, the return on investment is much shorter. What I’d like to see is a derated Hot Cat used for the domestic unit.

    As for releasing proof, Rossi has already stated that the Hot Cat has been tested by an independent third party and the results should be published sometime this month. Can’t wait another two weeks?

    Also, the first 1 MW Hot Cat plant is being built and will be open for inspection after a settling in period. What more do you want? This is the only proof the pathological skeptics will accept anyway.

    Now if nothing happens for six months you have a point. Let’s wait and see.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    georgehants
.I agree with you. I also think Rossi, underneath his competitive secretive nature, there is a good soul, not too interested in power. I think the new agreement with the “world class” company has and will bring Leonardo huge wealth. So Rossi might be going through a transition from a relatively poor inventor, knocked around by our free enterprise system, who found it necessary to be secretive, very competitive and manipulative to a person more concerned about how history will treat him. We might see a more open Rossi in the future.

    • psi

      I concur. I see little beyond projection in the analysis of Rossi’s most savage critics. If the way forward is so obvious, why aren’t they doing it? Huh?

      • psi

        Well, having read Pweet’s excellent critique below, I would have to exempt it. Its the best summary of the pessimistic view of Rossi’s progress I’ve read, and definitely contains some sobering analysis.

    • georgehants

      Bernie,thanks and I agree with you.
      We outside cannot know what is going on inside,I believe that Mr. Rossi is a very genuine man, that like all of us faced with such a momentous discovery after his earlier bad experiences with the establishment, is going to act seemingly a little strange at times.
      My opinion is that he clearly has something substantial and deserves every bit of support.
      But allowing for all this, I cannot now help feeling that very little can be gained by not 100% confirming the high output of his E-Cats to allow governments etc to bring Cold Fusion into long term planning.
      I could of course be wrong, but as all this comment is just my opinion and not based on facts I am free to just put my view.

  • robyn wyrick

    Optimistic, and rightly so. Clearly something is happening in LENR development. Though – also clearly – whatever that is is not trivial. If it were, it would have been invented in the 1800s.

    Fleischmann and Pons found something, and could not solidly reproduce it. Celani has something, but it has not been solidly reproduced. The E-Cat is *something*, the question is what.

    We’re up against a flurry of claims – met with a demure of NDAs (BTW: I claim that a “demure” is the multiple of NDAs, like a swarm, a flock, or a gaggle.)

    I think Focardi, Siemens, NRL, Univ of MO, MIT, NASA, NI, and of course, Fleischmann and Pons are too many highly reputable figures/institutions to all be con artists, deluded or duped.

    And so that leaves Rossi – not the strongest reputation, but clearly working on something exciting to those who are under an NDA.

    So that leaves me with presuming the E-Cat is real.

    • psi

      I like that “demure of NDAs.” ROGLOL

  • clovis

    Hi,Guys.
    Ho, ye of so little faith, why do you condemn, the one that can make your life better, why are you condemning the messenger that brings you so much hope , Mr. Rossi has done nothing to you,and he is not a new comer to this kind of work and past experience has tought him that you can lose everything you have, trying to make a dream come true, that dream is our dream, of a better life for all, may the great inventor of all things, protect Mr.rossi, and shield him from the ones out to discredit him and his work, history I believe will tell of his great sacrifice of mind and body, and the inheritance, of his family, for such a great and noble cause.
    THANK YOU Mr. Rossi from the bottom of my heart,–Clovis alan ray,

  • Karl

    It seems likely that huge amount of energy could be released and we have been informed it happens through condenses matters influenced by ionised gases, plasma or electrolytes cracks in metal lattices verified by E Storms et al. I’m very optimistic that CF/LENR is the real deal. It seems likely it will be proven very soon for any laymen with practical products accessible not only by non-military customers.

    Products are likely to first emerge from Leoardo and then possible by Defkalion, BlackLight Power and Brillouin or perhaps from licences of the PAPP type of noble plasma gas ignition burst control engines by any of the Rohner brothers. Piantelli with partners may be positioned in the Nickel/Hydrogen track as he has invested thoroughly in a portfolio of patents.

    I would be surprised if there aren’t lab activities in larger companies like Shell which surely have the capability to analyse it to avoid a threat or take advantage of new possibilities. However, small innovative entrepreneurial driven companies may naturally take the lead.

    Business ramp-up quickly once the genie is fully released from the bottle with physical products on the market. Perhaps a few with a winning business plan could become something like a new GE but is common that small business and IPs will be purchased and integrated into bigger companies.

    CF/LENR is a ground breaking technology perhaps not directly comparable with what happened in the IT that created new way of living and working. At least in developing countries we already have access to energy for some needs however, limited by its high rice its sometimes extreme danger and dirt.

    It seems that the skill required to build low cost energy technology will not be extreme once the receipt are further out (which it will be sooner or later). CF/LENR is clearly on the contrary cheap, clean and safe. Of course a faked danger artificially created by blown up labs etc. to impose control preventing energy companies or individuals in homes to freely take advantage could be attempts to delay it by competitors and until politicians have learned how to tax it.

    It is fascinating that so many different product approaches seems to be possible to develop based on one phenomenon (theory) behind CF/LENR. This will probably results in difficulties for anyone to at least entirely block the market.

    Initially I guess replacement of the old energy solutions will start. On top on that something new should definitely emerge because energy is so close to a valuable asset that would be easily extendable to virtually anyone. Energy is the key for humans to create welts and if anyone has access to virtually free energy there must create new possibilities that change the society in many ways.

    • On should not mix papp-like engine with LENR.
      Papp-like engine are not the subject of a pile of papers written by scientists, various protocols, 50 sigma results…

      They are rather very suspect, with strange inventors, and much secrest that make by comparison Rossi look very mainstream and very open…

      Same for cavitation hot fusion, that even if they have a credible theory, have no credible scientific results of being usable. moreover the inventors look very suspect, not far from mythomania….

      I’m happy that you don’t cite superunitary magnetic motor, that looks very suspect (to be nice).

      LENR with hydride, in electrolysis or gas phase, PdD,NiH,TiD,NiD is a clearly validated and reproduced fact, either as heat, as transmutations, as gamma, or as neutrons, depending on the experiment and the measures done…

      The rest is … to be published, replicated, and validated… or to be industrialized if they want to keep the secret (but meanwhile a patent, which will will be replicated in labs, will be published).

      • Karl

        I agree that the Papp related type of effect lack documented “scientific credibility” compared to the major activities in CF/LENR (don’t say that to Robert Park et al).
        The reason while I mention it is because one of the main figures in the LENR research McKubre kind of backing one of the Rohner brother’s claims. I have also followed some of the discussions on Vortex about the Pap effect. Some to my mind appearing insightful persons in CF/LENR have some hopes and claims that it could be part of the same effect that is visible in gas/electrolytic and metal lattice reaction. Another reason I mention it is because it does not seem too far away before it can be validated according to claims by John Rohner dec. I recall.

        • yes McKubre reaction is very “open mind” (yet if you read it, it is just saying that one have to investigate because it seems to work)… Maybe he just want to put his hand on it like I would myself like to.

          With LENR results, and without any working LENR theory, it is not crazy to imagine that some LENr effect happens in a noble gaz engine…
          Anyway if one day we have a good LENR theory and can trigger it quickly and strongly, I have ideas how to make a piston engine, maybe ultra slow… a mix between stirling and otto, or diesel… but with hydrogen, not noble gaz. probably useless compared to turbines… maybe fun!

          What make me doubt is more the behaviors around that technology that really looks like the usual fraud and delusion of free energy… but a zebra look like a horse, yet it is not… And Rossi is really like Papp, but with credible satellites.

          That feeling is even worse for cavitation fusion (despite credible theorie) and magnetic motors.

          • Omega Z

            AlainCo

            Most of these subjects need to be looked into in a serious manor at some point. Most seem to have something going to a point. Some may work out in time. Some Wont.

            I personally believe a Magnetic Motor is possible with properly funded research. It’s just missing that Magic Key. Howard Johnson actually built 1 that worked & received a patent. It was however problematic & he continued to do research until his death.

            All these Energy Possibilities Start with a Major disadvantage. The Status Quo. The Fight against Change.

          • Karl

            Alain, I agree with most of what you say and the resemblance between Rossi and Papp as the usual perception of the “crazy” innovator is quite obvious. I also agree that there seem to be too many fantastic free energy machines out there.

            It may be a long shot to imagine the similarity in effects in Papp and LENR but nature may still have it surprise, who knows. The Papp is of course much less researched area than the CF/LENR. I think it should be looked at seriously and investigated further.

            The Rohner brothers claim to repeat the Papp effect which they originally were part of but now with better technology I imagine. The brothers seem to be engineering doers rather than innovators or scientists but we have to remember the cycle mechanics flying Wrights brothers.

  • Sean

    I had high hopes for the ECAT. But not seen anything massive. My father worked for an inventor and this inventor showed us that burning fuel and air in a new type of device kind of impressed the public and stake holders along with people who fly. It was the Jet Engine. This inventor was named Frank Whittle, and boy, did he demonstrate some power. I cannot see the ECAT making 26 million pounds of thrust like the Saturn 5 B rocket either. Show me the power
. The other thing is this, do you think your honest little politicians and civil service is going to let you have low cost energy without you paying just a little tax? They are swimming in petrol taxes, and if it is replaced by ECAT then yes, they will be knocking at your door. The other thing I drive steam engines and I can demonstrate to you a deafening raw of power when I do a boiler blow down. This is not apparent with the ECAT. Also When I asked a nuclear physicist “Uncle” about LNER her told me it goes against the rules of physics. So little public me, does not know what to make of all this. I need proof and an impressive demo.

    • Victor Victory

      Sean,

      Sorry to dissapoint you but the physics you’re talking about is wrong and this is why the LENR effect cannot be explaine yet. Regarding the fact that you’re not seeing enough “power” you need to think that the excess energy of the output is something like %600 compared with the imput and increasing. This is only the start of this technology and you cannot simply dismiss it just because you think so or because you’re told so. I would advise you to do your own research and read the articles published as well as the patents filled by all the parties involved. The problem with the taxes can be solved pretty easy as the current monetary system is broken anyways and a new one is needed but I won’t go in too much detail here. If you will try to think of change in the old structure you’re wrong. This new form of energy will change everything!

      Regards,
      V

      • Sean

        Physics is wrong?. Scary. So what is really going on with our nuclear reactors? I Joe public have placed in good faith that my uncle (DND) along with other nuclear scientists, know what they are doing. When I thrust myself down a runway V1-VR 12deg pitch up, I know I am in good hands with all the people and the science that make it happen. Passengers are assured this. So I am following this LENR. I like power sources because I like power. It’s just that since 1989 we public have mixed messages. Some positive and negative LENR reports which seem to cancel each other out, causing false hopes. How come for instance that with all the clever geniuses in this world, it boils down to one man who holds the cat secret of LENR? & another with a bit of wire. Where are the parallel inventors of hot-cat out of the 6 Billion people on this blue ball? This web page wanted the public opinion and I gave it mine. I am not dismissing LENR in any way. So I hope you budding scientists are working hard on the science related LENR as I do in my interests. Stop talking about it and get on with it. The public are counting on you. Work out these strange physics then produce me and the rest of our general public a working power plant. Actually I need two, one to get me off the ground and one for my steam loco.

        • Miles

          The World Bank has warned the planet is on track to warm by four degrees this century – causing increasingly extreme heat waves, lower crop yields and rising sea levels – unless significant action is taken to cut greenhouse gas emissions.

          Read more: http://www.theage.com.au/environment/degrees-of-devastation-major-report-warns-of-drastically-hotter-planet-20121119-29l3c.html#ixzz2CcpBrUM3

          Will Rossi save the planet? More reason Rossi needs to Act NOW !!!

          • GreenWin

            Miles, no one person will “save” the planet – because as George Carlin reminded us… the planet is fine. It’s the people that’re…

            Part of the message in LENR is to dissolve fallacious fears that human beings are “bad.” That there are dwindling resources and we are all doomed to live in Calcutta-like ghettos if we do not immediately quit eating, bathing, procreating, and using energy.

            E-cat, Rossi, LENR, is more a change in consciousness than physical invention. We are learning there is enough. There is plenty. We live in an abundant universe. And with a little belief in goodness, and less fear in flawed human nature… there is plenty for everyone.

            http://bit.ly/RNbDG5

          • What if
          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Would not expect anything different from the Daily Mall

          • georgehants

            Bernie, that would seem like a ECN comment.
            What ever source information comes from it must be respected and checked from source before any factual point can be made.
            Science is not about opinions but Facts Evidence and Research.
            It is such comments that destroyed P&F and Cold Fusion 24 years ago.

          • David
          • MikeP

            Yep, there’s been warming since 1970. There’s been warming since the bottom of the little ice age. Why do you think warming will continue when the longer (centuries) trend in temperature seems to be down and the oceanic drivers are turning negative (oceanic cycles control release of heat into the atmosphere from the much larger heat reservoirs that the oceans represent).

          • David
          • Robert Mockan

            Before the end of the 21st Century mind transfer to synthetic bodies will be fact, and the equipment to do so made available to all people. Those bodies will run on electricity, probably a nuclear powered battery in the body. They will be faster, stronger, smarter, and as virtually indestructible as they can be designed. There will be no overpopulation, no global environmental catastrophe, no food crises. Just a few thousand decadent insane oligarchs without slaves, who will most likely be quarantined on Earth while the billions of free people travel throughout the galaxies for the next millions of years. People who do not understand what trans-humanism is, and how it is unavoidable, and the changes that will come with it, are living in a dead past with no future.

          • Ramsy

            Thanks God I will not be in this world at that terrible time.

          • David Jensen

            As I look to the future I’m reminded of our past. Past wars should have taught us that no good comes from war. In the 60’s we were shown jet packs and flying cars as a few brilliant individuals shot for the moon. As much as I would like to believe the human race has the ability to save itself, I wake with the reality that the majority of humans are frozen in a fundamentalist time capsule. Our race today is far too self-destructive to realize what we can only imagine today. The naive side of me hopes for cold fusion but $4.4 trillion per year of fossil fuel says it is not going to happen easily.
            DJ

          • Pedro

            In his blog Andrea Rossi answers a question about home cat for electricity generation…
            November 19th, 2012 at 6:54 AM
            Dear Gherardo,
            Sorry, I hadn’t understood fully your comment.
            Yes, you are right, it is unthinkable to make electric power with a domestic E-Cat, with the existing power production technologies. The Carnot cycle makes sense only for industrial applications, as you correctly think and all the direct conversion system are not mature, or can yield too low efficiency.
            Warm Regards,
            A.R.

          • Roger

            Disagree. The number of connections possible in a human brain is greater than the atoms in the universe. Simulating that in the fastest supercomputer (today or prob tomorrow) is impossible and I believe it wil remain so. You can currently simulate the behavior of a nemotode worm or something similar with a few hundred or so neurons.
            What will save the planet is actually I believe ourselves. The elephant in the room is over population, although no one really wants to talk about it (all too political). We are however slowly poisoning ourselves – everyone in the developed world knows a couple who are receiving fertility treatment. There is some as to yet undiscovered unknown chemical we are releasing into the environment that is causing humans to become less fertile.
            Not such a bad thing but I would much rather have some kind of controlled way of depopulation such as education and or licensing – it strikes me as very strange when you have to take a rigerous theory and pratical test to drive a car but can become a parent without any such formalities. The latter being a much bigger thing than driving!!!
            I can see civilisation crashing (as our numbers drop) but the human race surviving – we are quite resilient as a spicies. I just hope that all the knowledge gained is not all lost as it was in previous eras, such as when the great library in Alexadria was ransacked (I think this happened a few times).
            There is of course the other concern, the point when machines become smarter than us – which may happen in this lifetime. They are of course much faster than us (silicon is faster than organic protein messages) but they have not yet been big enough to think – maybe is someone creates a silicon neural network with enough critical mass it may start to think if given the right stimulus. This is different to trying to be human. Machine intelligence would not need all the compexities of being humen such as emotions, you could create a fundemental intelligence with a much smaller order of magnitude number of neurons than a human brain.Should this ever happen or be allowed to happen then all bets are off as to whether we survive or not.

          • Joel C.

            That’s linear thinking at its best.

            Very intelligent people in the past thought like you do now and they have been proven very wrong.

          • freethinker

            You havent’t possibly been reading books by Peter F Hamilton, have you ? 😉

          • Robert Mockan

            Not unless he published before the mid 1960s.
            The “bible” of the original Life Extension Foundation, and the Cryonics movement, of which I was a member before the government shut it down for also selling drugs to extend life and enhance good health, is The Prospect of Immortality, by Robert Ettinger. That book, along with Profiles of The Future, by Arthur Clark, were among the first in my personal library I started keeping from that time. They would be a good place to start, even today, for young people wanting to get a heads up on the promise the future holds.

        • Ryan

          I just wanted to chime in on your comment and clarify something. Its not just two groups working on it, its more like around the 20 groups and probably more that we don’t know about. Also, if it was simple we would have had it figured out decades or perhaps longer ago. Most knowledge is built up upon until new facets are discovered or refined from previous knowledge.

          Don’t make the illogical assumption that we have a firm grasp on how existence works yet. We have some ideas and we can get a lot of cool things to work but that doesn’t mean we have a complete, or even close, grasp of how things actually work. What we have are models that get things done. Perhaps those models are correct and perhaps they only work to a certain level and then fall apart. The beauty of science is that we always keep looking, always revising, and throwing away facets that end up being incorrect or flawed so that we can press on. Just because we’ve got some nice toys now does not mean we’ve reached the end of the road to figure out how everything works or for that matter are absolutely correct with what we know now.

          • Sean

            Very well stated Ryan. Wish I had the gift of science like you and others on this web site. I do like engineering as both side of my family are engineers. My dad worked then with English Electric / Rolls Royce. The latest R.R. reactor run British nuclear submarine for 26 years without fuelling. It would be nice to have the ECAT as a replacement. Also ECAT reactor for the two super carriers in progress. BAE would like a power source for their new magnetic rail gun. I envision a rocket whereby a 3 thousand degree ECAT reactor mounted in a thrusters with water exploding into steam jets from the tanks above.
            I hope the ECAT / HOT CAT comes true.

  • Pedro

    I presume most of you have seen the video of James Martinez telling the story about being threatened by NASA’s Dennis Bushnell.
    http://pesn.com/2012/11/14/9602219_NASA-Senior-Scientist_Dennis-Bushnell_threatens_James-Martinez/

    Near the end of that video James Martinez also says that he was “in a cold fusion lab” in the north of California, where they are developping what he calls the “Rolls Royce” of the LENR devices.
    Anybody any idea who/what he is talking about?

    • freethinker

      This is indeed interesting.

      We are walking through a hall of mirrors here.

      The future will be a real spinner.

    • He previously interviewed the fellas at Brillouin (Bay area, CA), but “giving away” the technology does not seem to fit their model.

    • walker

      Mr. Martinez does not come across as believable.

      • Andre Blum

        Admittedly, the bushnell story would have been more believable when he had refrained from telling that second unbelievable thing of meeting the producer of the Saints by chance.

    • GreenWin

      It does appear that interested parties are battling. NASA seems to want to take credit for LENR via the W-L theory and their own patent apps. Piantelli has filed new patent apps with interesting details about secondary materials in his generator.

      There are clearly big players vying for commercial rights. Any suggestion that Rossi’s e-cat is the only game in commercial LENR is foolish. He is working with a team of government and industry scientists – who are planning to introduce commercial products. THIS will get the technology into the hands of the people faster than any other method. Especially a government monopoly.

    • Andre Blum

      Just my luck: I trade Hilversum for a nice island in the Caribbean, and they hold an international cold fusion conference there.

  • Lu

    The longer Rossi goes without a independent third party report validating his claims or a respected established company using his product the less likely Rossi has what he claims to have so I voted I’m increasingly pessimistic.

    I’ve always believed Rossi has some sort of LENR effect. It’s just whether he has a device which is commercial that is the question. It’s not hard to believe that Rossi has cherry picked previous LENR research and perhaps even improved upon it but the rest is quite possibly Rossi’s attempt to establish commerciality and enrich himself in the process. Rossi exhibits behavior that is indistinguishable from a scammer and the longer I watch this the more this appears to be true. I believe Rossi is only using the Internet to lure investors and never really intended to market a home E-Cat as he knew what head winds he would have to overcome.

    In short I don’t care much for Rossi although I hope he is successful. I am waiting patiently for the report which could change everything.

    • freethinker

      I agree with the pessemistic feeling. It somtimes hit me too. I have however reconsiled my ambivalence and hopes and today I would say that AR have the goods, more or less as he claim them to be.

      But does he really bear the mark of a scammer? Doesn’t his behaviour fit better to a battle scared inventor, knowing what he has and what kind of relentless opposition he will be facing? Just take a minute and ponder the real implication of the Bushnell event descibed below.

      I too think there will be no homecats, as the people buing into AR now will not want to see that ( or so I conjecture).
      Plz just AR do his thing. In the end, it will not matter. LENR is real.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      I say that Rossi need only satisfy his customers….especially since he’s still in the developmental phase.

      • John-xyz

        I agree with you but – why has he exaggerated (at best) and lied (at worst) to the people who want him to succeed?

        • Adam Lepczak

          Past history + history + the lack of appropriate patents + the implications of the LENR technology…
          Yeah, these are the reasons I think that make him blow as much smoke as possible.

      • Lu

        Fine, but why all the hot air (and not from the E-Cat) and chatter from Rossi?

        According to Rossi he’s in the commercial phase which is where I point out his deception might lie.

        Rossi also has stated, for a revolution to succeed it must be popular. Well the people are waiting….

        • GreenWin

          Well, Lu, the world’s best minds, greatest scientists, most august academics, along with some $274 BILLION dollars of the people’s money – promised us 60 years ago, “unlimited, clean, energy” like that which powers the stars.

          Okay. At more than 10X Rossi’s development time – we still have ZERO, ZED, absolutely nothing in the way of useful energy from any version of hot fusion. Deception? Lies?? Deliberate misdirection? Using tax dollars for undisclosed, unsupervised (nefarious) purposes????

          Let’s get honest. Hot fusion (and other) “programs” have established the foundation. The behavior of the loftiest orthodoxy is far more suspect than that of an ambitious entrepreneur from Italy.

          The people are indeed, waiting.

      • dominik

        does this mean he can lie? everybody got amnesia ? what happened to units in Home Depot by end of 2012 and factory building minion units? Were are independent test results promised ? Japan is spending billions for its power production from oil and dealing with atomic disasters … don’t you think they would suport and sponsor any real technology or inventor that would help them to be independent and produce cheaper energy? China is implementing medical research, development and therapies that big pharma is fighting … they don’t care about big oil … if they see technology that would made production cheaper they would go for it with all they money resources and government controlled scientists

  • Ramsy

    I don’t beleive any thing until I see and touch it.

    • andreiko

      HOT-CAT touch??

      • Hal

        will that be coming out before or after the i-cat touch?

  • Rene Vega

    I voted overall increasingly pessimistic. The basis to that vote is that there are two areas where an e-cat product would fit and so this vote reflects those two possibilities. One is industrial or commercial power generation. The claims look good, and it is only that without outside confirmation I remain skeptic in the sense that it all holds great promise awaiting a final product or installation along with strong indepedent confirmation. I am hopeful that will happen soon.

    My increasing pessimism comes from the home or domestic e-cat product. That one looks like it is sailing further away from becoming something people can acquire. And so, I see commercial interests quite happy to mix this technology into their revenue streams and the fruition of indepedent low cost heat and electrical power sources fading.

    • captain

      The object of this thread is… do U believe that E-Cat is really working or not?
      U’ve missed the goal.
      And the 1MW warm thermal plants are already on sale…

      • Rene Vega

        The question asked was “what is …the level of optimism or pessimism regarding the eventual success of E-Cat technology as a new and useful form of energy.” To that I thought about useful to whom. Hence it is useful (when verified to work) to large commercial and industrial enterprises. Though I am happy for them, it does not help me directly. Trickle down energy has a tendency to get leveraged.

      • Robert Horning

        I would like to see one of these “1 MW thermal plants” in operation. Really. If I knew somebody with money available and need to spend on one of those plants, I would strongly urge them to keep their money and spend it on something much more productive and proven… like a coal burning steam plant. Actually, I do know somebody with the cash to buy one if it really worked too.

        I still hold out some hope that perhaps Andrea Rossi has a real technology here that actually works as advertised, but he hasn’t convinced me in a conclusive manner that it actually works, or that he has sold these devices to anybody at all. I can’t even get a return call to buy one of these devices… other than to people who don’t have a clue about what is going on.

  • georgehants

    Pedro got there first.
    Lovely day.

  • Cindy

    My hope for LENR is that it will become the new energy technological revolution, similar to the Industrial revolution. Imagine massive numbers of new real jobs created…Imagine not fighting wars over oil….We will always need oil, but less of it. Our lives as we know it will never be the same when LENR takes off. Advances in many creative technologies would grow by leaps and bounds because creative technology would no longer be limited by energy use and expense. This technology can save our planet. I do not understand why governments are not taking more actions in the development of this technology, unless they are afraid of the big powerful oil companies. Or…maybe military thinks it has capability to be used in weapons to harm humans. I would love to try out an ECAT in my home in Minnesota as a Beta test.

    • Regrettably, given AR’s determination (see the second-next post) that a home e-cat that produces electricity is unthinkable (“you are right, it is unthinkable to make electric power with a domestic E-Cat, with the existing power production technologies”), it seems like time to turn all our attention to fostering the development of BlackLightPower.com’s hydrino reactors for the home. Randall Mills is even more of a procrastinator than Andrea Rossi, I fear, so it will take a lot of patience. However, there’s a lot more elaborated science and theory in Mills’ case, and his work has been subjected to substantial validation studies that it has passed with flying colors. As far as the government’s power regime, however, it will become increasingly difficult for cold fusion devices to compete with conventional electric technologies because the threat to them is obvious and real. Most of them will have little interest in the wholsesale conversion of their power plants to a new technology and will fight any consumer mandate to do it tooth and nail. I’m really afraid we’re stuck with what we’ve got until Randell Mills gets off his duff. I am nn optimist by nature, and a dreamer for sure, so this take is hard on me, but I think it’s realistic.

  • David Anderson

    Human creativity is awesome. Ten years in development is a very short period of time. It is not a question of believing, it is a question of embracing all creative people. We may, at present, be living in a new renaissance period where all kinds of developments will flourish. Keep the information field open of both mortal and immortal minds. Let it flow. If ones expectations with the ecat are not met then perhaps there are others currently or in the near future bring this new fire to humanity. When you develop something new, do you expect to get it right the first time? Well only when you are an armchair spectator, for they can “do” I mean talk with such certainty and success.