More on the Testing, Rossi is 'Very Worried'

Andrea Rossi made a few more comments yesterday (Jan 20th) regarding the 3rd party tests and peer reviewing process that is apparently ongoing:

The Party is composed by professors of 4 international Universities, and their work is very complex. It does not depend on me, and, as I said, I do not know where it will be published and who are the peer reviewers. It is a very serious thing. I am very worried of this. I do not know the results of the report. I assume it will be published by February, but I cannot say that it is sure, as I expalined. New tests will be made in February, to confirm the results already obtained. Being an international commission ( from different and distant parts of the World) the reviewing times are not very simple to coordinate, I have been told. The news of this week, while I am in the USA, is that the results need further tests to be confirmed beyond any doubt.

Plenty of food for discussion here.

  • Chris the 2nd

    It’s completely natural for him to be worried about the test results.

    Anyone who has just graduated or is young enough to be doing their highschool exams will be able to attest to that.

    It’s just a sign that Rossi is human and being very frank and honest.

    • Blanco69

      I’m not so sure. I think Peter mentioned this in the previous thread but we are talking about the Hot Cat here. If it works as advertised – a high school science student should be able to conculsively prove there’s something novel going on!
      I realy hope the word “Worried” is a translation glitch. I’m also concerned that Rossi seems to be distancing himself from this. Why? Does he have something better to do? Really? I can’t think of anything other than making sure Humanity’s Gift makes it to Humanity.

      • Chris the 2nd

        What I mean is that being worried about a process (i.e the publication/verification) you have no control over is completely normal.

    • credo

      I believe one could safely speculate that Rossi’s “I am very worried” is equivalent to what would normally be stated by most of us as “I am very nervous”. It is a big event leading up to a bigger moment.

      • Ramsy

        Do not worry Rossi, Rely on God.

        • Russ

          What should he rely on god for? A miracle ? Miracles by their very definition are not reproducible, and Rossi needs all the reproducibility that nature not god can muster….

          • Rockyspoon

            Ramsy should have said “Rely on hard work”, for that is the source of success (with a big dose of inspiration from God for good measure).

  • HeS

    These are good news. If the reviewers called for additional research, it means that the report proved the existence of excess heat. If the test results where negative, it would mean that ECAT is an ordinary electric water heater and additional tests would not be needed.

    • AlainCo

      interesting reasoning…
      I was afraid of Rossi to have again misled the testers…
      but you are right.
      If negative the answer would be quick and easy.

      Only seeming positive, thus inconvenient, result will need checking.

      Anyway there is the possibility that Rossi is telling a fairy tale…
      who can confirm that story about testers?

    • Pweet

      Or it could be that the excess heat is so small that more tests will be required to detect if there is any at all.
      I suppose how you view it is determined by your assessment of the last two years announcements.

  • Hugo

    In November he wrote “Has been good. The results have been better that(n) in the July 16th preliminary test.” So why would he suddenly start worrying now? Or was that another test?

    Andrea Rossi
    November 21st, 2012 at 10:09 AM

    Dear Clovis Alan Ray:
    You merit this info: yesterday the third party validation of the Hot Cat has been completed.
    Has been good.
    The results have been better that in the July 16th preliminary test.
    We are presently manufacturing 3 1 MW E-Cats:
    1- Low Temperature 1 MW E-Cat
    1- 1 MW Hot Cat
    1- 1 MW Hot Cat gas fueled
    A Report will be published after peer reviewing.
    We are working very hard.
    Warm Regards,

    • Pweet

      That post referred to the test results which were supposed to be released in mid November.
      At about mid November there was a post which said that the testers had asked for more tests to determine some unspecified details.
      Less than a day later he announced a serious problem had arisen.
      No results were released. The problem was not specified. But apparently it was serious.
      About a week or two later there was an announcement that the problem had been resolved.
      He didn’t say what it was or how it was resolved.
      He eventually said that the new partner was arranging validation tests.
      He didn’t say so but from this I took it that the original test and results had been dumped and a new test authority and tests had been organised.
      I took it that this was how the problem was resolved.
      It was then announced that the new test would be completed in December and the results would probably be released in February.
      In early January 2013 he reported that the tests had been completed.
      Also reported that the report would be released, maybe in first week of February.
      Now we hear that the test people want to come back for further tests. “the results need further tests to be confirmed beyond any doubt.”
      He says he’s worried.

      I wonder what the new powerful partner is thinking about this?
      I find it hard to believe they haven’t got on the phone and asked how things are looking on the test results,.. off the record and all,.. you know.
      I find it hard to believe that Mr. Rossi hasn’t done the same.
      Actually, there’s lots of things about all this that I find hard to believe.

      • HeS

        @:”I wonder what the new powerful partner is thinking about this?”

        If the partner is really powerful, it can test the ECAT in his own laboratory. They need not external scientists to test such simple device.

      • Gerrit

        Thanks Pweet. We really need some volunteers that keep track of things, maybe you can keep adding to this list everything that concerns the validation report. Or maybe somebody else volunteers

        Pick one:

        a) There is always the possibility that nothing is real, no ecat, no powerful partner, no validation and thus no publication, never. And that Rossi is pulling money out of gullible people and therefore needs to keep this story going for as long as he can.

        b) There is also the possibility that the ecat works, the powerful partner exists and a validation team has tested the ecat.

        If we will not see a report published within February, or March, or April can we somehow conclude whether a) or b) is more likely ?
        It would definitely fit a), but could also fit b).

        The other thing that Rossi promised us is the installation of a 1MW plant at a european customer somewhere around February. That will likely get delayed (or under NDA) until forever.

        Any volunteers who want to keep track of the 1MW plant delivery subplot ?

        • HeS


      • elasticbucket

        Pweet: “I find it hard to believe they haven’t got on the phone and asked how things are looking on the test results,.. off the record and all,.. you know.”. Of course Pweet, you are privy to all correspondence of A.R. and cohorts, have a complete understanding of the LENR process [no one else on this earth has] so as not to warrant revisiting the “holy- grail’s” mansion? If you don’t understand something where’s the penalty for at least trying to get a better handle on things, surely revisiting the “holy- grail’s” mansion is not, as you seem to cast it, obnoxious and sinister, particularly, if when such a complex issue arise and your reputation is at stake? Admittedly, it would be nice to know who was invited to the peer review process. Public trust and all that.

    • Fibb

      did he mean he’s manufacturing only one copy of each model or many copies of each? I still don’t have a sense of how many plants he intends to make/sell in 2013.

    • Ged

      Worried now because he’s in the peer review stage. Never know what comments, or crazy ideas, reviewers will send back and have you check!

  • Teemu

    This is EXCELLENT news. In my mind there’s less of a chance of Rossi being a liar, if he chooses expressions that do not fit the narrative and purpose of a fraud. “Being worried” is one of those expressions.

    I just want the results to be published – good or bad. I want answers, both about the E-Cat and Rossi himself. At this point I’m not even sure that a report is going to be published. I hope.

    • psi

      Teemu, good point. I have always felt that Rossi doesn’t fit the type that extreme skeptics put him in. They hold him to a standard that no real human being could ever meet. This is a good example of him saying something that is genuine and also completely at odds with the view of him as a a hubristic scammer.

  • Nixter

    I would guess that the testing and measuring have basically confirmed Rossi’s claims. That in itself will cause problems for any parties involved, positive results will fail to agree with accepted scientific dogma, thus resulting in severe skepticism amongst their peers. Probably not what they expected, they may be experiencing the same universal disbelief and doubt that almost all LENR researchers and experimenters have received. Most of those involved in the report were initially doubters themselves, and now they are experiencing what all other claimants of LENR processes generating excessive energy have experienced,(ie, endless obstruction and obfuscation). I doubt that any amount of additional testing and retesting will satisfy the deeply entrenched doubters. The report could be delayed indefinitely if they seek to remove any and all doubt before publishing it. Those who proclaim LENR to be “impossible” have ever escalating standards of “proof” that will NEVER be achieved. I think the researchers behind the report will have to rely on their work and reputations and risk professional repercussions by issuing the report “as is”, and let the chips fall where they may.

  • Guga

    This is one of the most credible comments I have read from AR. It would have been very surprising if the process was easier. I wonder how much will be disclosed about the materials used. Usually, all details need to be given so that others can repeat it.
    I also wonder what kind of benefit Rossi and his commercial partner expect from publication at this point of commercialization. Are they confident that they are far ahead of competitors in terms of production and don’t need to fear competition? Do they hope that a peer reviewed publication will help with patents?

  • GreenWin

    Even Nobel laureate Carlo Rubia, President of ENEA at the time could not get “Report 41″ published in ANY scientific journal. And that report only confirmed the appearance of He4 in CF.

    The ruse here is that consensus science will publish anything confirming CF. IMO, science peer review is corrupt. I give it 1-2% possibility. A working device and happy customer is the only proof we need.

    • Maybe the investors are pressing for a validation report.

      poor investors…

      • artefact

        Think so, too.
        Rossi said there will be no more tests, only happy customers.
        I do not remember him telling us, why he does the 3rd party test now. Maby customers or his new management.

        • Teemu

          I asked him, but my question never got through.

      • GreenWin

        Can anyone explain why the ENEA, DeNinno study on He4 was refused publication by 41 “science journals?” Anyone?

        • robiD

          You can find a summary here:

          I can add that I saw a video (that now I can’t find) where Emilio Del Giudice said that a reviewer, of one of these journals, said him that it was impossible that inside the water (the liquid deuterium) the wires can reach high temperatures such to melt them. Del Giudice, dejected, said that clearly those guy didn’t know that submarine volcanoes exist and that is possible doing submarine weldings.

          • GreenWin

            You make my point Robi. The apparent knowledge of editors at (some of) these “scientific journals” is astonishingly poor.

            “Report 41” will be evidence for cleaning house in peer review.

  • GreenWin

    Regardless of the “report” status, here’s an interesting representative article:

    “LENR : A formula for Change” Examiner JANUARY 12, 2012BY: JOHN RATCLIFF

    “Its time the world got some good news. A clean, safe, limitless source of inexpensive and highly distributable energy is going to transform the planet and our own individual futures in such a profound way that is almost difficult to comprehend.”

  • Some people make a point of saying how nervous and worried they are to disguise their complete confidence. But it may be that events beyond Rossi’s control have left him frustrated and concerned for the Hot Cat’s future. Also, I’d like to note that most of the “doubters” that posters refer to here are not real “doubters” at all, but people who have chosen to be impediments to progress beyond wind, solar, geothermal, hydroelectric, natural gas and oil as the foundations of our energy sector. It’s extremely hard for them to make room for something completely new that they have no investment in, and that may kill the investments they do have, whether financial or intellectual.

    • Ged

      It’s good he’s worried, as anyone should be when their life’s work is being evaluate, as it shows it is indeed being evaluated by a third party beyond his control. Peer review is always nerve wracking, so this is good stuff! He may sweat it for now, but it’ll be ok.

      • Gerrit

        Rossi is worried because when the paper comes out with scientific proof that the ecat actually works nobody will fall for his scam anymore. He will be out of business.

        oh wait …

        • Andre Blum


  • Bruno

    Rossi does not need world renowned physicists to validate the ecat. He just needs competent and independent third party engineers to demonstrate that significatly more thermal energy is produced by the ecat than electrical energy is put in, and that this occurs over a long enough period of time to exclude stored chemical energy. If this can e proved, then everything else will fall into place. Physicist naysayers will be discredited because they won’t be able to explain away WHY so much heat was produced. Other physicists will study the phenomena to explain WHY it occurs.

    • Teemu

      Let’s look at all the different possible scenarios. A little critical thinking will go a long way towards making it obvious as to why some of them are not plausible:

      1. [ROSSI IS NOT A LIAR] He is “worried”, because according to the validators the E-Cat doesn’t seem to be producing excess heat. <– Impossible

      2. [ROSSI IS NOT A LIAR] He is "worried", because the validation process is making him nervous. <– Possible

      3. [ROSSI IS A FRAUDSTER] He is "worried", because there are validators investigating a device that he knows doesn't work. <– Impossible

      4. [ROSSI IS A FRAUDSTER] He is "worried", because saying that he is worried will make us view him as a vulnerable human character, and therefore less likely to be a fraudster. There is no validation commission.

      Conclusion: Rossi is EITHER

      a) worried because of the validation process itself.


      b) a fraudster who's lying about there being a validation process

      • One more scenario: Mr. Rossi says “I do not know where it will be published and who are the peer reviewers. It is a very serious thing. I am very worried of this.” So, he is telling us he does not know who (possibly snakes, spies?) will be investigating his invention. A good reason for being worried.

        • Teemu

          Do you mean industrial espionage? Has it actually been confirmed that the validation commission had access to EVERYTHING, including the “secret sauce”?

          Or are you talking about snakes with industry ties getting into the peer-review process to badmouth Rossi?

          • Both.

          • With expensive instruments, they might in prinicple be able to infer what is inside the reactor without opening it. For example by studying the gammas or neutrons emitted by the materials when exposed to some external source of high energy particles or gammas. Although in practice that would probably be quite difficult or impossible.

        • HHiram

          You need to understand who the “peers” are in the peer-review process.

          Peers are the people who review the investigators’ work anonymously. Rossi knows the 4 university scientists. What he doesn’t know is which journal they will submit their findings (as a paper) to, or who will anonymously review that paper to see if it is fit for publication in the journal.

          This is a standard process in normal scientific research. Peer-review is usually anonymous.

          Rossi just has no experience in this process, because he operates as an engineer and not as a research scientist. His own “journal” of nuclear physics is, sadly, just a joke by normal scientific standards.

          I really doubt Rossi would expose himself to this kind of scrutiny if he didn’t really have a working product. It will be enormously humiliating if their results show that he is just a fraud, and therefore no real fraudster would allow themselves to be fully scrutinized like this.

      • Omega Z


        Could be Rossi means Anxious. Not Worried…

    • Martin

      Actually we just need a customer and two of his electricity or heating bills. One before and one after installation.

    • Peter_Roe

      I agree that at least one report by a serious 3rd party organisation such as SGS would be commercially useful. The question is, what is gained by having the tests performed by various uni professors, and submitting a paper for peer review (a process that 9 out of 10 people would never have heard of) with a high probability that the process will fail at some point along the road.

      Not only does Rossi have no commercial interest in convincing physicists that his device works, but there are many ways the wheels can come off and discredit him:

      (1) the professors may design inappropriate tests based on their own expectations and prejudices, or moderated by safety concerns etc. (professors are usually better academics than they are engineers or technicians),

      (2) the peer reviewers may nit-pick the results indefinitely, or introduce endless additional ‘suggested’ experiments, no matter how good the initial numbers are, or may simply reject the paper because it clashes with their dogmatic beliefs, or

      (3) even if the paper survives (1) and (2), the editor might just reject it because he or she doesn’t want to ‘risk’ publishing something so controversial, or may be leaned on by the journal owners to block publication (I know this happens, as a paper I once contributed to was blocked because it involved a powerful commercial interest and potential lawsuits).

      The upshot could easily be an inconclusive paper, or one that is rejected and ends up on Arxiv – with little more authority than Rossi’s in-house tests. The SGS route would have been faster and would almost certainly have produced a much more commercially useful result. Whoever decided to go for peer review seems not to have understood that the risks far outweigh any imagined benefits in this case.

  • PersonFromPorlock

    No point in speculating about any of this: the 3rd party report will or won’t appear, it will or won’t be by reputable examiners, it will or won’t say the e-cat works.

    On prior performance, I expect it’ll appear in “The Journal of Mystikal Physics”, be by Rossi’s in-laws and conclude ‘maybe’.

  • Fibber McGourlick

    I’m back on the fence.

  • artefact

    Nice to see older videos again.

    From I miss the times where Rossi was more present.
    I think this could change after the 3rd party test and the publication of the results.

  • Raúl

    Maybe we are not understanding well Rossi with that “very worried”. I do not know in italian language but in spanish (and they are very similar languages) sometimes to be worried about something is not a “bad feeling”, means to put all your attention or taking care on something.

    • RenzoB

      I agree, from the comments it seems the phrase “very worried” has a strong meaning to english speakers. Please remember that Rossi thinks in italian and then translates into english, being italian myself I understand that he only means to say he’s impatient and restless to know the scientists’ opinion and conclusions. I don’t think he fears for the overall positive results.

      • Omega Z


        In English the word Anxious would fit very well. Kind of like a kid on Christmas Eve.

        • RenzoB

          yeah I think “anxious” would be right

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Way too much emphasis on the “third party report”. No matter what it says the skeptics will still rule. The only think that will prove LENR will be working reactors saving its owners a lot of money.

    • Hugo

      If we assume that he has such machines (saving a lot of money) then why is he giving away the distribution rights practically for free? Why would he sell distribution licenses anyway if he now has a strong partner like Siemens or GE or who ever? Wouldn’t these companies be more than suited to distribute these products far more effectively through the sales networks they already have? Siemens probably spends what the Japan license apparently costs on advertisement alone in a single day.

      • daniel maris

        Reasonable questions.

      • “why is he giving away the distribution rights”
        Perhaps Rossi began establishing “distribution rights” or areas before solid agreements were signed with ‘Partner(s)’.
        A detailed chronology might reveal that. Did Rossi intend to keep the “distribution rights” while he outsourced manufacturing? jdh

        • Hugo

          Obviously the licenses were sold before the ‘partner’ came in. But why wouldn’t the partner buy into these licenses now (if i.e. Roger Green is really selling at least parts of them)? And above all: Why are they (still) so incredibly cheap and despite that still available?

      • Frank

        That a powerful partner (a “big carrier” like Siemens) would agree to give away distributer licenses for peanuts and to depend on “amateurish” distributer for the sale of the e-cats isn’t even remotely plausible.
        It’s almost the same as believing that the Rolex-watch which you get offered by a street vendor in China for 10$ isn’t faked. Guys, use some common sense and don’t let yourself get fooled!

      • Omega Z

        The Fees for distribution don’t have to correlate to the Profit potential. This is all about having some skin in the game so that the distributors follow through. You have a financial stake at risk.

        As for a Big Partner stepping in- Don’t worry about the Original License Distributors. Should E-cats come to market, They will make out like Fat Cats whether they do anything or not. Their Covered.

        Decades ago, I had the Opportunity to buy into the Airwaves for a huge Zone. The Cost in hindsight was ridiculously low & I had the Resources to do it. However the uncertainty of how things would roll out financially long term was in question.

        How much additional funding was unknown. Cell Towers & Such.. Stretched to thin & you could default & your share in the venture could be absorbed by other investors & little or no compensation for what you already had in it. So I Declined this Opportunity. I had Family responsibilities to worry about. Had I been single….

        In reality, most of these Investors did absolutely nothing. They merely licensed or Sold their interests to other players. AT&T, Sprint, Etc.. Most became extremely Rich in just a few years. Very Similar to land owners who receives Royalties for Mineral Rights.

  • Montague Python

    I trust Rossi’s end letter greeting will be gradually upgraded as progress is confirmed. Warm, Warmest, Hot, Hotter… Hottest. Perhaps It is reasonable for anything referring to Steamy to be avoided.

    • GreenWin

      You might add “hotter ‘n Hades” to the list.

  • GreenWin

    Despite date confusion this colloquium happened today:

    • GreenWin

      Er, no date confusion… TUE is Technische Universiteit Eindhoven.

    • georgehants

      GreenWin Do you know where to get a report when released.

      • GreenWin

        I will keep my eyes open George. The MIT Cold Fusion course starts today. What I don’t understand is why such prestigious universities hold colloquium on “impossible technology.” Apparently it’s “impossible” only for those unwilling to expand consciousness.

        • georgehants

          GreenWin, truly these things boggle the mind.
          I suppose though that first you have to have a mind to boggle.

          • Gerrit


            Boggling the mind is an unscientific practice, there are no peer reviewed papers showing that mind boggling has any benefit.

            The only exception for boggling the mind is in the sums of money that go into big science projects.

      • artefact

        Admin should get and publish a report by someone who attended soon. I think there were at least 3 people in this forum who wanted to go to the colloquium.

        • GreenWin

          Another, serendipitous namesake arises in that today Jan 23rd, Italian defense giant, Finmeccanica will consider offers to buy Anasldo Energia – a participant in CF, National Instruments Week and in the 17th ICCF in Korea. Samsung, Doosan, and Siemens AG are all bidding. Also interesting is the President of the Tuscany Region Enrico Rossi, seems to feel this is all for the best as it will bring much needed cash to Finmeccanica.

          Ansaldo Energia makes single and combined cycle components for fossil and nuclear powered electric generating plants. Their representative physicist attended Dr. Rossi’s successful test in October 2011 of the 1MW e-cat reactor.

          • RGCheek

            It is not a neutral observer who laughs about spilled milk that has yet to spill.

  • mikeS_50

    Rossi at this point wants to make complete fools of all the non-believers he knows they will come out like rats in the night, Rossi will have the last laugh.

    • Master

      I assume you forgot the /sarc tag, right?

      The expectation set by Rossi now includes a likelihood that there will be no report. We have been prepared for another let down. And, if history is any guide, there will be no report.


    • Stephen

      I think you should distinguish between non-believers and non-believers. I am very skeptical about what AR might have… but believe me, I would just love him to demostrate I am dead wrong. Actually I wish him best luck in doing that and I hate he doesn’t do that: why do you think this would be a bad news for me, for example? I don’t belive what I would like to be true, I just believe what – to the best of my understanding of what I see – is most likely true… I don’t give a s#it about being right or wrong in the end.

      I am not sure all this I am stating makes any sense to you.

      • Stephen

        having said that… to the best of my understanding and given what I’ve seen in the past years, I would bet something that there will be no report…

        … and of course hope I will lose my bet 😉 …

        • Master

          Prediction: No report this year. Will publish report in 2014, in a major publication, concerning the direct production of electricity (EMF) using the E-Cat.

          Sometime in 2014: No report this year. Will publish report in 2015, in a major publication, concerning the direct production of unicorns using the E-Cat.

  • georgehants

    Andrea Rossi
    January 21st, 2013 at 4:13 PM
    Dear Italo R.:
    I am worried means that I really am worried, because I do not know the report that will be published from the Third Party, I don’t even know where it will bepublished and I have not been always attending. Anyway,let’s wait and work, work, work.

    • Frank

      Well, let’s assume for one moment that Rossi would really have allowed an independent test (what would be strange because he refused them before; several times promised to give e-cats for test to universities but never did) then he has good reasons to be worried because there is still this press release on the hydrofusion web-site:

      “Hydro Fusion witnessed a new independent test of the high temperature ECAT prototype reactor on September 6th in Bologna. Although no full report has yet been received, early indications are that the results of the July 16th/August 7th reports could not be reproduced.
      Hydro Fusion cannot at this stage support any claims made, written or other, about the amount of excess heat generated by the new high temperature ECAT prototype.”

      • robiD

        Well, let’s assume for one moment that Rossi would really have allowed an independent test … “

        Wow, it seems that a doubt is starting to grow in your mind. Think for a while if that was true. Will be interesting come back and read all your comments that always denigrated Rossi here and on ECN.

        • Peter_Roe

          Doubts seem unlikely – it’s just that ECN types posting here understand the need to downplay their negativism a little or to wrap it in neutral content, in order to avoid their posts being deleted.

          The most common techniques seem to be to either make some half-hearted discussion-style comment such as above, before delivering the negative payload, and/or to follow this with unconvincing claims about how much they would like to be wrong.

          • Frank

            You are right, one has to choose his wording very carefully here on ecw in order that sceptical comments doesn’t get stuck “in moderation”, or not to get banned forever. Only recently the admin seems to allow more Rossi critical comments again.

          • Just to note, if you are new to ECW: comments sometimes go to automoderation no matter what the contents. For example recently I replied with two words “I agree” and it went to automoderation.

          • robiD

            So you are thinking that actually Rossi hasn’t done any independent test, that there isn’t any “professor” that has done measurement of any kind, that there isn’t any peer review process in course and hence there won’t be any publication. Is all that right?
            Please tell me the exact answer with your words, don’t behave like a child that is afraid of his mom.

          • Bigwilly

            Well it has happened twice before.

            A year ago UniBo denied working with him and then again this last summer UniBo denied

            So not completely impossible i guess

    • daniel maris

      It’s an odd complaint, because if the machine is as good as he says it is, surely it will pass all the tests without any doubts whatsoever. I suppose he might have some legitimate doubts about conventional peer reviewers rejecting the evidence in a dogmatic manner – but that is NOT what he says here.

      • Cliff Bradley

        Maybe you’re right, but for someone like Rossi who is used to controlling everything, handing something like this over to people that he doesn’t control and who may have agendas above and beyond just testing it must be hard to take.

        Remember Justice Roberts’ supreme court decision? Nobody can explain that even now. So, you never know.

    • Redford

      “I don’t even know where it will bepublished ”

      Red light here. He first says it will be published in the highest scientific magazine, then that he don’t know where it will be published. Lots of confusion here.

      • A possibility: They submitted first to Nature or Science and the referee process is ongoing. If it doesn’t get through, they will submit it to some other journal, and are planning to post a preprint to arxiv at the same time. Nature and Science have strong embargo rules, most other journals don’t. For “hot” results, this is a common publication strategy and it’s consistent with what Rossi has thus far said about the matter.

      • elasticbucket

        Why? Why should Rossi know where his “future” is to be published there are 4 independent university’s involved, so which uni is to grab the kudos, who is their (the uni’s) favourite publisher/reviewer? Will their judgement of the [as yet, little understood] LENR process be fair and un-biased. What country will be the most accepting of his technology, and which country the most benign. No, not much to concern ones-self about!

      • robiD

        It depends on who accept the publication. Even if it was a paper well written and correct, the subject is controversial and not all the scientific journals will accept this kind of subject.
        Some journal can refuse the paper a priori, without read it, others can refuse it after a first read.

  • jpelsor

    My first thought when reading about Mr Rossi being worried was: ‘Whatever happened to the additional dozen megawatt plants that were ordered and originally supposed to have been delivered by now?’ Or did the withdrawal of one group from supporting the hot cat so completely consume Rossi that we are supposed to have forgotten about them?
    But then, when you consider the difficulty the MFMP project has had while trying to establish confidence limits and how the simplest error can require extensive rebuilds, it becomes more and more clear that this reaction is still so poorly understood it may take years to make it into a robust commercial process. At least there was enough of something going on that the independent evaluators need to tale another look. If the Genie gets stuffed back in the bottle for another forty years, civilization, as we know it will likely have largely crumbled back into a savage and primitive state much like the Sudan of today.

    • daniel maris

      I don’t know…MFMP haven’t even tried nano-powders yet as far as I know. One can see theoretically how that might result in a leap in performance.

  • Omega Z

    Speaking of the Hot Cat-

    For quite sometime now, people have been posting about why Rossi would allow a completely Independent 3rd party test for validation only now, When he hasn’t been willing to before.

    My Logical Guess would be: Until mid to late October, The H-Cat has been R&D. In Development. There is no Logical reason to have it tested before you think it’s ready for Production to Market. Anything else would be a waste of time. Making any serious changes after testing would make those tests Null & Void. Back to square 1…

    In addition to that, Even if the Partner has tested the H-cat & has no doubts, They would want it tested by an Independent Organization.
    Why? Patents.

    They will be putting 10’s of Millions into additional Product development & Marketing before they ever make a dollar off of it. That’s a Lot of Risk not to have some form of protection & these tests will be part of their ammunition in their patent Efforts.

    Note: That it’s Stated 4 International Universities are involved.
    Not just 1.

    As for Rossi worried or anxious-
    Ever take an Important test & know You Aced it, But wait, this is very important, Doubts can enter your thoughts. It’s Not Aced until it’s actually been graded.

    How this report is written is Extremely Important to Rossi as In the Partner’s Aspect. They need the IP Patent to justify a Major investment. Without it, they are left with very limited options. No Matter how real the H-cat is. This is the Real World. Lawyers, Lawsuits, Infringements…

    Just to Add that this report will provide information/details to the Patent application that is missing about how it works to produce energy.

    • Omega Z

      I don’t mean to imply the theory being in the patent app. That can come latter. As long as enough detail is explained & documented by Recognized Competent 3rd parties & verification as to the results.

    • Peter_Roe

      Omega –

      I can understand the need (as perceived by the partner organisation) for independent verification of the hot cat technology. This could, as you suggest, be required for possible use in acquiring patents or other protection, although I understand the tests are on a ‘black box’ basis and will not add anything to understanding the e-cat. Also the tests may possibly have been commissioned by non-technical ‘higher-ups’ in the parent company, in order to reassure themselves that the findings of the individuals who took the decision to acquire Leonardo were correct.

      What I don’t ‘get’ is why the findings need to be published in the form of a research paper, with all the pitfalls involved, such as lack of control over experimental procedures, delays or possible bias by editors or reviewers. In fact I get an impression that Rossi himself may have been running to keep up with decisions taken by others, and may now be worried that going for publication in a research journal might have been a premature decision by someone in the parent company.

    • tappanjack

      Hello Omega and all Readers:
      I do not disagree the IP is paramount. However there is another huge consideration that is not mentioned often. This will be a PR nightmare for any large multinational company without 3rd party verification. Look how polarizing Mr Rossi’s declarations have been since the initial announcements of the e-cat in the scientific community.
      A company like Siemens or GE will not announce a revolutionary new technology without the cover of reputable verifications.
      These companies must answer not only to shareholders but more importantly to the marketplace. A 3rd party affirmation not only provides this cover, it also becomes the ultimate marketing tool.
      When a major announcement is made by the new partner, the 3rd party report will be referenced to answer most all the “questions” that will flood the organization.

      • daniel maris

        True, but why would Rossi be worried if he has a machined that clearly produces huge COP gains at the flick of a switch? Surely, Rossi should be excited but supremely confident I would have thought.

        It’s puzzling.

    • HeS

      @:”In addition to that, Even if the Partner has tested the H-cat & has no doubts, They would want it tested by an Independent Organization.
      Why? Patents.”

      Exactly. Publication independent test result in a leading scientific journal does not allow UPSTO to reject the patent on the grounds that: “It is impossible from the point of view of physics”

  • Sorry, Mr Rossi, we are waiting for this test since exactly two years !

    • rolando

      Four universities and dozens of professors, soon or later, the test results will come out or leak out, positive or negative. Just a matter of time.

      • And then what, i have seen the reports of blackligth and the ones at brillouin site, whatever the e-cat test looks like cant be more than this test already out.

        I tell you then what, more investors rounds, year thru year, and no commercial product, i dont say its a scam, its in a gray zone where scientist dont give up on what they belive, some people just makes money and dont care if the thing is real and the investors make a very high risk investment on the fantasy of been the first one on a revolution that just very few people belive.

        This field is filled with a lot of people waiting axious for a thing to be real, and thats bad, makes this people judge bad what is in front of their eyes.

        –> Just my comment in the comments section, no more. <–

        • HeS

          @:” i dont say its a scam, its in a gray zone where scientist dont give up on what they belive, some people just makes money and dont care if the thing is real”

          But where is the interest of the Rossi? From the time when he announced that he had found a “big partner”, he does not need new investors (and money).

          • Do you think the investment is a one time pay way ?

            The investment of this kind is a long time process where the money comes with some results in periods of time, check the story of rossi with defkalion, it can be repeated and repeated.

            repeat this cycle (more or less):
            Public announcements, investor rounds, problems, unreliable reports/results, complain about not enough money, etc.

          • HeS

            @:”The investment of this kind is a long time process where the money comes with some results in periods of time”

            If Rossi partner is really big (Siemens, GE, Bosch, …) then Rossi need not additional financial support in next 10 years.

          • 1) if…

            2) i think you dont understand how investment works.

          • Peter E

            Oktober 12

            Bologna Experiment
            Due to the lack of detailed information on the Bologna experiment, it is not possible
            to compare rigorously the present prediction and the experimental results. Nevertheless,
            the observation results of Bologna group seem to be suggestive some coincidences of the
            prediction in Section 12 [29-33].
            1) In Bologna, no 5.5 MeV gamma ray was observed as prediction i). Instead later, the
            0.511 MeV annihilation gamma ray might be detected and correspond to the occurence
            of the reaction Eq.(8).
            2) The observed power output of the Bologna device charging some tens gram Ni and
            ordinary hydrogen gas might be some kW. This is consistent with prediction ii), iii)
            and iv).
            3) The Bologna data on the power output is said to be gained through supplying D2-gas,
            which correspond to prediction iii).
            4) Corresponding to prediction ii), iii), iv) and vi), a very small percent fraction of Ni
            might be transmuted into Cu during a few months continued operation of device. A
            small part of annihilation gamma rays observed might be due to the positron decay
            of 60Cu produced in the 58Ni(3He; p)60Cu reaction.

          • Peter E

            Based on this conjecture, the author observed successfully the enormously
            enhanced fusion reactions in the metallic Li liquids under the collaborations with R. Pet-
            tersson in Uppsala and T. Watanabe in Sakura/Tokyo. The above described enhanced
            nuclear reations or transitions are generally expected through the spontaneous chemical
            reactions coupled with the nuclear transitions in the thermodynamically stable liquids.
            The enhanced nuclear transitions

      • dzejk

        If there was a test …

      • Michael

        Which universities, professors? Who is paying?

  • georgehants

    Men more likely than women to commit scientific fraud
    Misconduct occurs across the career spectrum, from trainees to senior scientists
    January 22, 2013 — (Bronx, NY) —Male scientists are far more likely to commit fraud than females and the fraud occurs across the career spectrum, from trainees to senior faculty. The analysis of professional misconduct was co-led by a researcher at Albert Einstein College of Medicine of Yeshiva University and was published today in the online journal mBio.
    “The fact that misconduct occurs across all stages of career development suggests that attention to ethical aspects of scientific conduct should not be limited to those in training, as is the current practice,” said senior author Arturo Casadevall, M.D., Ph.D., professor and chair of microbiology & immunology and professor of medicine at Einstein, as well as editor-in-chief of mBio.

  • georgehants

    Nature | News
    South Korea makes billion-dollar bet on fusion power
    Reactor to be built in 2030s represents a step towards commercial use.

    • Gerrit

      Hurray, hopefully they will finally prove that hot fusion is a pipe dream that will forever be technically feasible, but practically impossible.

    • GreenWin

      Just as with PV, we are witnessing desperate moves to counter the inevitable introduction of LENR by hot fusionistas.

      “ITER has experienced repeated delays and cost increases, prompting some critics to question whether the project will ever be completed. “It is already obvious that future commercial-size machines will be too large and costly, and too expensive to operate, to generate competitive energy,” says Thomas Cochran, a consultant for the Natural Resources Defense Council in Washington DC.” Nature doi:10.1038/nature.2013.12251

      New alternative PV, hot fusion, wind, chemical “breakthroughs” are now a metric for the approaching LENR public disclose. Does Nature ever ask, “How do you contain a plasma that destroys your chamber walls?”

  • artefact

    The US New Patent Law: March 16, 2013

    “The following is a further posting in a series of articles by David French, a patent attorney with 35 years experience, which will review issues of interest touching on the field of Cold Fusion.”

  • jacob vanderzwaag

    If I was Rossi , I would be worried too ,if those
    that do the 3rd party testing ( PEERS) are the same people
    who decide what technology will be allowed to enter the
    domestic market.
    I predict the testing results will be inconclusive and create
    more questions than answers.
    Why, change is hard ,today the major players in ENERGY want to strangle LENR to death officially ,but privately are racing to implement LENR for themselves TO MAKE LOTS OF MONEY ,its all about the money.
    If you asked a thousand people if cold fusion works,I wonder how many could say yes ,based on what they know,my guess would be only a few.
    My point is obvious ,they want to keep it that way.

    That is the reason for PEER REVIEWs of new technology like COLD FUSION ,if they can discredit and damage and postpone LENR(Cold Fusion) they will,if they think they can get away with it.

    Don’t think we are ready for a disturbing technology like this yet
    which goes against the grain,and could devastate the global market,maybe due to some visionary people who try to prevent such
    devastation ,who are the puppets like ,UL,CSA ant the patent office .

    For those who have been successfully brainwashed by current dogma,don’t worry about it,it will take years to unlearn what you have learned and of course your reality is based on that , the easiest thing for you to do is wait until you hear and learn about it on TV.

    Of course LENR Cold Fusion works and so does the E-cat,and so do other exotic energy devices, including many perpetual motion machines, even many toy versions one could buy at one time,including pendulums which never stopped .

    Don’t be fooled by Academia and man made laws who do not know where ficticious forces originate from.

    Peace to all.

    • HeS

      @:”That is the reason for PEER REVIEWs of new technology like COLD FUSION ,if they can discredit and damage and postpone LENR(Cold Fusion) they will”

      Damage and postpone is not simple.
      The best way to block important publication is to demand more data and ask additional questions. A simple refusal to print the test results will lead to its availability on the arXiv and the number of people interested in cold fusion increase.

      • Michael

        But nothing prevents you from publishing your own results on the Internet for comments.

        • HeS

          @:”But nothing prevents you from publishing your own results ”

          I have not “my own result”.

          Rossi said that if the report will be rejected by the scientific journals, then the test team will publish it on the arXiv (as “white book”)

          • Michael

            But he must have plenty of result for the both models of the ecat. Have we ever seen a full report. It doesn’t have to be reviewed, only described in detail so it i possible to duplicate the tests…….or at least described in a way that seems trustworthy. I have always been puzzled by the photos of the ecats set-ups. A revolutionary high technology appliance, but a lot of low-cost instrumentation, tubes, valves etc.

          • HeS

            @:” It doesn’t have to be reviewed, only described in detail so it i possible to duplicate the tests”


            Nobody can repeat the ECAT tests, because Rossi does not reveal the secret catalyst. What is clear (to me:)

        • Chris I

          The more he’s worried, the more meaningful the results will be.

  • Kim G Patterson

    One the the problems is that
    the boys in the rafters are
    having orgasms and about all of
    the money they could make if they
    could meter the energy.

    What Andrea Rossi needs to do is
    show America how to heat a cup of
    cheap water in the morning using
    a simple $20.00 dollar device.

    A patent to boil a cup of water.

    Then flood the market with these devices

    The rest would be history.


    • Bigwilly

      Kim, you are by far my favorite marxist poet on these boards. You should consider publishing a short novel of your musings.


    • Hugo

      I doubt an immersion heater costing $20 and heating a cup of water by thermalizing gamma rays would be very popular in American kitchens (or anywhere else for that matter).

  • Gerrit

    TU Eindhoven’s own news site about the colloquium.

    “Warm interest for cold fusion”

    • Andre Blum

      rough translation:

      In the spring of 1989, for a brief period, the world was captured by Cold Fusion. Some weeks later, and after wagon loads of criticism on the claim of electrochemists Fleischmann and Pons that they had achieved nuclear fusion at room temperature, the hype was over. Until this very day, many scientists do not want to be associated with cold fusion, told professor Jean-Paul Biberian at the TU/e, yesterday. Still, the search for this supposed possible energy source continues until today.

      Jean-Paul Biberian is emeritus professor of physics in Marseille. For twenty years he has been researching cold fusion, or put more carefully: nuclear reactions at low temperature. Prof. dr. ir Ton Backx, dean of the TU/e-faculty of Electrical Engineering and the one who took the initiative for Biberian’s colloquium, introduced the Frenchman as the man who may have the most knowledge about the history and current state of affairs in this controversial part of science.

      The skeptical attitude of most scientists with regards to cold fusion is something Biberian finds explainable. To join two atom nuclei – a reaction that generates enormous amounts of energy – one has to first conquer an almost unconquerable barrier. This can only be done by forcing such nuclei to collide at extremely high temperatures, as in the regular ‘hot’ fusion experiments, in which also nuclear physicists of the TU/e are involved.

      “People envision nuclear energy to be enclosed in a safe with extremely thick walls. We are looking for the safe keys, while most scientists believe the safe doesn’t even have a door.” Without a door, one can only access the nuclear energy by brute force, hence the plans with the ITER fusion reactor to build a kind of “sun on earth” in which hot fusion should occur.

      Despite the 1989 debacle, at this moment all kinds of experiments are performed in (among others) the U.S., China, Japan, Russia and Italy, from which unexplained excess energy is produced. Japanese giants Mitsubishi and Toyota and the United States defense department (but not the energy department!) finance such research. Biberian elaborated on some of these experiments in his presentation.

      Generally, they evolve around heavy hydrogen (deuterium), captured in metal lattices, from which a very modest amount of excess energy is released – less than a Watt. Still, some scientists claim to have produced substantial amounts of energy, but for commercial reasons they refuse to give insight in their methods.

      The questions at the end of the speech demonstrated the audience to be open and curious, rather than to be openly skeptic. But real skeptics would probably not have taken the effort to come and listen to a story about cold fusion.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    Hi All,

    Here’s my report on the CF the colloquium at the university of Eindhoven in The Netherlands. Everything IMHO of course.

    I found the colloquium quite strange. It was attempting to give an overview of the history and the current state of LENR/CF, but it sort of ended up being a little bit of history, too much sheets attempting to show excess energy and too little background about the current theories or possible future developments. Not much was said about the problems involved getting LENR to market either such as patents and possible problems with upscaling the power.

    The professor didn’t seem too knowledgeable about the field as a whole since he didn’t know some of the questions asked and went on way too much about his own experiments in too much detail.
    He did however mention one interesting fact: It is possible for a CF reaction to run away and cause an explosion. To his knowledge this happened at least 6 times, possibly more at respected institutions such as Mitsubishi and Toyota, but also by McKubre at SRI. Some have tried to replicate the explosions, but to no success.

    So for me not much new and I imagine, for people not knowing much about CF/LENR quite confusing.

    The talks in the foyer however where much better as questions were asked about the problems of getting CF research in universities (apparently research money is hard to get and in the case of the university of Eindhoven, the people having a final say in the money are also involved in hot fusion), about CF theories and also some talk about the MFMP project. I met this guy called Joris van der Schot who was the co-organizer of the talk en who was also involved with the MFMP project (he registered for example and knew all the guys at the project) and was planning to start a research company into the CF effects. He will probably be reading this site also.

    The general impression seemed that world is poised for a LENR breakthrough, but nobody can say for sure when it happens.

    Also it was interesting to note that there were no people from the hot fusion faculty present.

    Would like to hear what others who attended the talk thought of it.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Would like to add that most of the CF/LENR background was about deuterium-paladium based reactions, (too) little was said about nickel-hydrogen based reactions. The professor did not seem to sure about that particular branch of LENR reactions.

    • Andre Blum


      Thank you very much for this report.

      How many people would you say were attending this colloquium? What was your general impression of the familiarity of the audience with the subject? How many of the people in the foyer showed they had been following the recent developments in CF?


      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        There were about 60-70 people would be my estimate.

        There were a couple of very knowledgable university guys on the front row who clearly knew the physics and they also were really knowledgable about the internet sites and forums concerning LENR. Then you got the rest of the room who were not so vocal and probably less informed.

        From the way the talk was given, much talk was about some
        excess heat slides and not too much general talk about the state of CF in general. Therefore it wasn’t that easy to determine the general knowledge about CF in that room.

        In the foyer about one fifth of the attending people stayed for a while and those I would guess were the people with more than a passing interest. The people I spoke to where quite knowledgeable also on the technical end of things.

    • Thank you very much for your time to let us know.

    • Bob

      I dont like explosions.
      Could it be such a simple explanation such as this having do to with electrolytic cells producing Hydrogen and that is gets in contact with Oxygen and they react and there for a explosion?

      It should be safe to say (?????) that this have not been nuclear explosions.
      Not as we know them at least…

      Really dont like explosions…
      Hope my explanation to be correct because then we know why and its nothing new to us

      • Biberian have such an explosion and tried to make his reactor explode

        chemical explosion is too weak to explain.

        someon died too, with the same proposed explanation…
        maybe they have estimated the quantity of hydrogen, thus of energy.

        note that explosion is probably simply because of quick release of heat thus steam. but much more that combustion.

        • Well if both he says so and you say so you are probably right.

          Just got reminded of an accident my friend described.

    • fusionrudy

      Report on Prof . Biberian lecture at Eindhoven TU on 21 Jan. 2013.

      Prof. Jean Paul Biberian gave a lecture „Cold Fusion 2013, a review of scientific progress“ at the El. Eng. Dep. of the Technical University Eindhoven in The Netherlands on 21 Jan. 2013. I estimate that ca. 40-50 people attended, among them a member of the Dutch Parliament Ms. A.W. Lucas (VVD). Most people were young men with a sprinkling of some 5 greyheads. I asked the audience if any people of the (Hot) Fusion Dep. were present: no reaction, hence they were not there or they did not dare to show hands.

      Biberian made it a rather casual talk with lots of humor and personal anecdotes.

      First he gave a short explanation of the basics of hot and cold fusion for the uninitiated. “Approach the atom in its safe by using the key rather than smashing the safe with a bomb”.

      Then he described a number of famous experiments from all over the world with experiment photos, diagrams and graphic results,

      Thirdly he spoke about highlights of his own 25 year research on CF.

      At the end, during the Q&A period he refused to say anything on the commercial efforts (Rossi, Defkalion etc.). “….I like Watts, not kW or MW…”

      To me, a regular reader of ECN, this was new info: Transmutations in rather large quantities had been measured early in the last century when chicken produced much more calcium in their eggs than was present in their food. Now I found this ref. on this topic:

      I made a video of practically the whole conference but the soundtrack is very faint because Biberian did not use a micro and talked subdued many times. I think it is not worthwhile to upload the video without adequate sound.

      • Gerrit

        Thanks for the effort of making the video. If the sound is really bad then it doesn’t make sense to upload it, I agree.

        Your report and that of ZZZ give a good understanding of how the meeting went.

        Special thanks for asking if any of the hot fusion dep were there. So, noone was there, that’s what Julian Schwinger meant when he said:”The pressure for conformity is enormous.”

  • artefact

    From MFMP

    Robert Greenyer 2013-01-22 18:29

    The Collaborate mini-project for triggering experiment apparatus design and test protocol is up on the Collaborate section.

    Please consider signing up and getting actively involved. The document is live so anyone can view and Collaborators can edit the document and do literature / patent reviews, provide sources and inspire us all to develop the best way to make the Celani wires ROCK!

    If we can get this done over the coming four months – we can submit the review paper or tested suggestions as a paper for review or poster session at ICCF-18 and active collaborators adding value to the document would be listed as co-authors. In fact we would like to do this with all of the mini-projects we are cooking up. More to come.

    • GreenWin


  • georgehants

    The Guardian
    Open access: Those who publish behind paywalls are victims not perpetrators
    One issue that permeates university-led science across the world. In many (if not most) fields, the journals in which we publish are judged to be an indicator of professional quality. This isn’t a good thing, as the evidence linking journal rank with the merit of individual articles is weak to moderate, at best. But here science is bad at being scientific: the actual quality takes second place to the perception of quality, which is so strong that journal rank creates its own biosphere.

    • GreenWin

      We think this will change as former prestigious journals will have to confess ignorance in withholding papers on CF and other unorthodox areas of science. Yet, dogma insists confession is good for the soul and may redeem even the most calcified of sins. 🙂

      • NJT


  • Peter E
  • Roger Bird

    I am betting that something is supposedly happen to make a report of the report not happen. It will all be hot air. I will bet a dollar. Who wants to bet me?

    • tim jones

      I’ll add a dollar to your dollar. My vote is hot air!

      • JimmyJones

        Add my dollar too.

        Sounds like he’s trying to setup the stage for his explanation on why independent tests debunk him.

        • JimmyJones

          Just to be clear I think LENR is probable and has a future. Just the more I see of Rossi, the less I think he has any place in LENRs future.

    • ScotiaGuy

      Rossi, to his chagrin, is admiting his device may not work as he believed and (perhaps) claimed. He’s being thoroughly honest, and thus currently acting in good faith. Be decent, and do not “pour salt in the wounds”.

      • Stephen

        Is he genuine? People have been asking for serious checks for over two years now… If in the end this thing doesn’t work and people will say harsh things about him… it’s just all his fault.

        Anyway, I have a hard time in believing he’s not aware of what he’s doing and of the reality (or not, +1 dollar here) of the effect he’s claiming. If he’s not… well, then he has serious personal problem and he’s in need of serious help.

  • After reading most of the negative replies above on the Rossi E-Cat, I have concluded that all but two are negative thinkers who would not accept a 100% validated working Rossi ECat if it bit them in the Gluteus Maximus.
    This is the same crowd that always geather like blow flies on a turd to boo and cat-call any intellectual pursuit that they can’t grasp mentally.