Research Suggests Proton Smaller Than Previously Believed

The journal Science is reporting about new research that suggests that the proton is about 4 per cent smaller than previously believed — which upsets physicists’ currently accepted understanding of how light and matter behave.

Aldo Antognini, a physicist at the Max Planck Institute for Quantum Optics in Zurich used a technique using laser spectroscopy to examine the charge radius of a hydrogen atom and came up with the new proton measurement.

While a small adjustment in the estimated the size of a tiny particle may not seem enormously significant to the average person, this new finding, which actually confirms research reported three years ago by Antognini’s team, has some physicists stumped as to what might be going on, and what this all means.

I’m not sure whether this observation has a bearing on LENR (readers here may have an opinion about that), but it’s an indication that settled science may not be entirely settled, and there could well be more going on within hydrogen reactions than is currently believed.

More information on the experiment can be found here.

  • Zaghlool

    Ofcourse there are many things are not as we believe today.
    I remember a story from Jordan:
    A head of horse was found in a large farm , the head was examined by scientists and they found it is 10,000 years old.
    The research office brought a bonus cheque to the farm owner.
    The farm owner asked: what that cheque for ? They told him that for the historical discovery of a horse head we found in your farm , he asked them where in the farm you found the head,they told him about the location in the farm , he laughed and told them that head is for horse I buried 6 years ago, come to give you the whole horse body.
    That farm earth contains chemicals which caused wrong calculations by the scientists.

  • Jacob

    If the Proton is Smaller or bigger than previously believed, that does not make any difference with me.
    The definite thing I believe in it is: The atom is trinity(same as its creator)and can not be less or more than that :
    1)Electrons
    2)Neutrons
    3)Protons.

    • Paolo

      This is the same way of reasoning of a traditional scientist against the Lenr: something new? It doesn’t matter for me! Good comment: 10+ To be serious, it is not necessary this new finding to understand that Lenr open a completely new field that, in my opinion as a physicist, will give at least a couple of different Nobel Prizes in the next 1-2 decades, probably one related to the heat in excess and the related theory (not Widom-Larsen!) and one for the nanomagnetic (Rossi/Ahern) and/or NTC (Celani) behaviour.

    • elasticbucket

      And LENR?

    • Peter_Roe

      A hydrogen atom consists of a proton and an electron only.

      • georgehants

        Morning Peter, very true but can you smell the difference between Hydrogen and deuterium.
        The World is Quantum not classical.
        —-
        Study Bolsters Quantum Vibration Scent Theory.
        Yet here’s a twist: odorant molecules typically contain many hydrogen atoms. And hydrogen comes in multiple forms, each very chemically similar to the others. But those different isotopes of hydrogen do strongly affect how a molecule vibrates. So deuterium, containing a hydrogen nucleus that has both a proton and a neutron (as opposed to plain-old-hydrogen that has just a proton), might help scientists discriminate between the proposed vibration and standard chemical binding theories of olfaction.
        http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=study-bolsters-quantum-vibration-scent-theory

  • clovis

    hello, all
    Interesting, find, just skimmed through the article, still quite iffy. but could turn out to be big, for lenr, as i see it. from what i think i know, lol is that hydrogen plays a major part in lenr, and it could be that hydrogen being one of the smallest atoms, is carousal in the process, and if muonic hydrogen is even smaller, then it would seem you could pack more in the metal latus, and produce a better gain of heat. — just my guess

  • georgehants

    Solar: It’s about to be a whole new world
    Sunday, 27 January 2013
    And now, after decades of research and subsidies, we may be on the verge of waking up into a whole new world. The cost of solar power has been falling exponentially for the past 35 years. What’s more, there is no sign at all that this cost drop is slowing. New technologies are in the pipeline right now that have the potential to make solar competitive with coal and natural gas, even with zero government subsidy.
    http://machineslikeus.com/news/solar-its-about-be-whole-new-world

  • georgehants

    From Scribd.
    Limited Warming from Doubled Greenhouse Gases
    Norwegian Study Finds Limited Warming from Doubled Greenhouse Gases
    A new analysis of the likely warming from a doubled concentration of greenhouse gases (compared to the level just preceding the industrial revolution) comes in far lower than the findings of most other research efforts and the conclusions of the last IPCC report. The analysis will be closely scrutinized by other modeling groups and climate scientists.The conclusion is close to that of Michael Schlesinger of the University of Illinois, whose work was discussed on Dot Earth last year:
    http://www.scribd.com/doc/122347692/Norwegian-Study-Finds-Limited-Warming-from-Doubled-Greenhouse-Gases

    • Hadamhiram

      Funny how it can go both ways when you cherrypick. Here’s Nicholas Stern saying climate change is far worse than previously thought: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slatest/2013/01/27/nicholas_stern_says_he_underestimated_risks_of_climate_change.html

      • georgehants

        Would it be a good idea if they put up a few more thermometers and admit Global Warming is possible but they do not have a clue that we are not heading for the next Ice-Age.
        Science likes to make out it has all the answers when it does not even know what 94% of the Universe is made of.
        It likes to preach that we do not even have free choice and animals have no feelings or emotion beyond the robotic.
        Science in many areas such as Cold Fusion etc. is a joke.

        • georgehants

          Dolphins team up to rescue injured companion by forming a raft,
          Wow, this is incredibly moving footage folks…people everywhere need to see this!
          Everybody’s favourite cetacean just got a little more lovable. For the first time, dolphins have been spotted teaming up to try to rescue an injured group member.
          12 dolphins were seen swimming very close together. One female was in difficulties: it was wriggling and tipping from side to side, sometimes turning upside-down.
          The other dolphins crowded around it, often diving beneath it and supporting it from below. After about 30 minutes, the dolphins formed into an impromptu raft: they swam side by side with the injured female on their backs. By keeping the injured female above water, they may have helped it to breathe, avoiding drowning (see video at link below).
          http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread921551/pg1

          • Joel C.

            Dolphins are very intelligent.

        • Well if they do keep cutting down the trees in the Amazon
          what do they expect.

    • georgehants

      Has global warming slowed right down?
      Posted January 28, 2013 – 10:07 by Kate Taylor
      Global warming could be a lot less extreme than feared, according to a new study which finds that worldwide temperatures have levelled off.
      “These results are truly sensational,” says Dr Caroline Leck of Stockholm University, who wasn’t involved in the research. “If confirmed by other studies, this could have far-reaching impacts on efforts to achieve the political targets for climate.”
      Read more at http://www.tgdaily.com/sustainability-brief/69063-has-global-warming-slowed-right-down#CFEQke1qDZ3zwFzE.99

      • Peter_Roe

        It’s only been a little more than a decade with no significant warming – even university scientists catch on eventually.

        • GreenWin

          “Ok, but this will not effect our funding… Will it?”

  • georgehants

    Mr. Berlusconi seems to want to undermine the Wonderful publicity that Cold Fusion is giving to Italy.
    —–
    Berlusconi causes outrage by praising Mussolini on Holocaust Memorial Day
    Berlusconi’s defence of Italy’s fascist dictator, and a possible banking scandal on the left, set to electrify election campaign.
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jan/27/berlusconi-praise-mussolini-holocaust-memorial-day

    • David

      This suggests that Berlusconi’s brain is smaller than the proton

      • giro

        Much to the contrary, mr Berlusconi is a genius in diverting the attention from his personal problems (a.o. ‘rubygate’) and make the media angry, so he can play the role of ‘poor misunderstood and bashed leader’, which he hopes will give him votes… In the past, he has been very succesful with this (and of course, having control of all national italian tv stations does help). I really hope for Italy’s sake that he’ll not succeed this time.

        • Ivan Mohorovicic

          In a way, that sounds a bit like what Rossi is doing, doesn’t it?

          • Doug Hulstedt MD

            Say are you related to whoever discovered the mohorovicic discontinuity?
            Thanks

          • Ivan Mohorovicic

            Nope, not at all.

          • giro

            good point Ivan…

  • georgehants

    From You Tube
    Cold Fusion Energy NOW! Videos.
    http://www.youtube.com/user/ColdFusionNow/videos

  • georgehants

    I see that Cold Fusion is top of the agenda in Europe.
    After 60 years they cannot even make a computer that remotely understands spoken English yet they still talk about copying the brain as if it where a steam engine.
    —-
    The New York Times Europe
    2 Science Projects to Receive Award of a Billion Euros
    By JAMES KANTER
    Published: January 28, 2013
    BRUSSELS — Projects to imitate the brain and to develop new materials for information technology have won awards of about 1 billion euros each that will be announced Monday by the European Commission.
    The awards, the largest of their kind ever made by the European authorities and equivalent to about $1.35 billion each, are aimed at helping innovative industries in the European Union and nonmember countries like Switzerland.
    “Europe’s position as a knowledge superpower depends on thinking the unthinkable and exploiting the best ideas,” Neelie Kroes, the European commissioner for information technology, said in a statement prepared in advance of the formal announcement.
    The goal is to “keep Europe competitive, to keep Europe as the home of scientific excellence,” Ms. Kroes said.
    http://www.nytimes.com/2013/01/28/world/europe/2-science-projects-to-receive-billion-euro-award.html?_r=0

    • Gerrit

      the money is awarded to the “winners” of more than 20 projects.

      The european commission announced that they would fund projects. Several teams made project plans and submitted them. Normal business in science funding.

      The european commission would (or could) never do this for LENR research, simply because there wouldn’t be any groups interested. Apart from a few small scale efforts at some european universities, the topic is still dead.

      To really understand LENR a billion euro multi disciplinary project is necessary. There is simply no way that the european union is going to stand up, against the belief system of the physics community, and initiate this.

      “LENR research” will – at best – slowly emerge from nano-technology or battery research or any other research area that fiddles around in such environments.

      • Peter_Roe

        Or just possibly from trying to understand where a steadily rising percentage of their electrical power is coming from!

  • georgehants

    From The Examiner
    Andrea Rossi, the man who saved the World
    new energy technologies
    January 27, 2013
    By: Gianluca D’Agostino
    It’s kind of rare to live in the same lifetime of a genius who invented something so revolutionary to change the way we live.
    http://www.examiner.com/article/andrea-rossi-the-man-who-saved-the-world

    • Zaghlool

      Well, Andrea Rossi reveived a special inspiration regarding the secrets of the Cold Fusion Phenomena in the right time.
      Without that special inspiration neither Andrea Rossi or another 1000 scientists could do any thing regarding this issue.

      • Fibber McGourlick

        Examiner.com is not a reliable source of news. Check it out on Wikipedia.

        • Gerrit

          Wikipedia is a reliable source ? LOL

          • HeS

            +1

          • Fibber McGourlick

            LOL Gerrit. You’re right,of cours. Wiki is not always a reliable source. In this case,however, it is.

          • GreenWin

            +5!! But this author is not well informed. There are many omissions and errors in this article.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Edison claimed 99% perspiration and 1% inspiration.

        • Zaghlool

          Well that the 1% portion is the Key.
          Every one can make the 99% portion but the key portion needs inspiration.

    • Hugo

      The man who SAVED the world? How do you say ‘utterly premature’ in Italian?

      • GreenWin

        Likely. But this story is now in rotation on Time Warner’s Road Runner cable service. Mainstream?

  • Zaghlool

    “Well, it is impossible to understand perfectly all the secrets of the nature around us. Our brains and thoughts are very modest compared to the greatness of the creator.” – Zaghlool.
    This phrase is Zaghlool’s Trade Mark.

  • georgehants

    From Chemistry World
    Plan for UK’s ‘eight great technologies’ outlined
    28 January 2013Maria Burke
    Advanced materials and energy are two of the ‘eight great technologies’ that the UK government wants to use to propel the country to future growth. The government has now announced how it will allocate funding to them with the aim of taking them from the lab to the marketplace.
    The Minister for Universities and Science, David Willetts, explains: ‘It is R&D and technology and engineering as distinct from pure science. It is our historic failure to back this which lies behind the familiar problems of the so-called “valley of death” between scientific discoveries and commercial applications.’
    http://www.rsc.org/chemistryworld/2013/01/eight-great-technologies-uk-government-funding

  • Hi guys, I am in Boston to study and report from MIT
    Check out my latest Cold Fusion Report!!!!

    Peace N Love / Dr Bob

    http://www.drboblog.com/where-is-bob/

    • Lukedc

      Good write up.
      Thanks Dr Bob.

  • Miles
    • Miles

      SIGNATURES NEEDED BY FEBRUARY 25, 2013 TO REACH GOAL OF 100,000
      TOTAL SIGNATURES ON THIS PETITION 124

      How do we spread the Word !!! Can someone help.

      • andreiko

        Flyers.

  • daniel maris

    Latest from the Maestro:

    Neri B.
    January 28th, 2013 at 7:19 AM
    Dear Andrea,
    1 . few months ago i remember you received a request from patent office to supply additional information in order to get the patent. Could you please update us ( if you can ) on the ongoing process? have you an idea on when this patent will be granted?
    2. Some weeks ago you stated that a REAL 1 MW plant would be placed up and running in February. Could you please update us on this plant? (without braking any NDA)
    3. Why don’t you upload on this site a report of one of your latest internal test with some data and some pictures? )

    Thank you for your kind attention
    Please make this 2013 the “LENR year” many people without a job are struggling for innovative opportunities
    Neri B.

    Andrea Rossi
    January 28th, 2013 at 8:30 AM
    Dear Neri B.:
    1- our attorneys are working
    2- I said February-March, we are in schedule, so far.
    3- we are waiting for the publication of the indipendent third party. Useless to publish other things before that.
    Yes, we are making jobs.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • Miles

      It’s your post which keeps me clinging on and keeps me coming back. Great post Neri. We all need to keep pushing & stay focused !!!!!

  • Owen

    V3Solar Spin Cells could produce electricity at 2/3 cost of coal with zero carbon emissions (except for the production of the cells themselves).
    http://cleantechnica.com/2013/01/24/v3solar-spin-cell-cones-cheap-solar/

    • Invy

      In terms of conversion efficiency they get at most a 4% increase, the interesting part is they use 1/20th the pv-material… So costs should be drastically lowered…

    • GreenWin

      Interesting. As with all PV, the sun shines only part of a day. And lately many PV panels lose efficiency due to dirt and dust films – a problem for residential installs. Ultimately, all alternatives will have to compete with 0.50 cents/kWh average cost of fuel and overhead of an LENR CHP system.

  • georgehants

    How Changes in the Sun Impact Earth’s Climate
    Source: science@NASA news story
    In the galactic scheme of things, the Sun is a remarkably constant star. While some stars exhibit dramatic pulsations, wildly yo-yoing in size and brightness, and sometimes even exploding, the luminosity of our own sun varies a measly 0.1% over the course of the 11-year solar cycle.
    There is, however, a dawning realization among researchers that even these apparently tiny variations can have a significant effect on terrestrial climate. A new report issued by the National Research Council (NRC), “The Effects of Solar Variability on Earth’s Climate,” lays out some of the surprisingly complex ways that solar activity can make itself felt on our planet
    http://www.astrobio.net/pressrelease/5290/how-changes-in-the-sun-impact-earths-climate

  • georgehants

    To help those who do not understand the connection of this post to Cold Fusion.
    This is showing that the corruption and incompetence of science is not just an odd occurrence but is endemic across many areas.
    With this Evidence and much more for thousands of years science still debunks and deny’s the Placebo because it does not fit their reductionist religion and there is no profit.
    There should be a full scale open-minded competent research program to ascertain the full effects, that are indeed unbelievably powerful.
    Any longer hiding this effect as with Cold Fusion is criminal.
    —-
    News in Science
    Placebos effective for most kid’s migraines
    A drug-free placebo pill prevents migraines in children and teens just as well as most headache medicines, according to a US study.
    Researchers published in JAMA Pediatrics found that only two drugs known to help migraine-plagued adults reduced the frequency of children’s headaches better than a placebo. Even in those cases the effect was small – a difference of less than one headache per month compared to the dummy pills.
    http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2013/01/29/3678546.htm

    • Pweet

      Almost everything that you use these days is the result of science and engineering. I think they have done a pretty good job overall.
      I’m certain that science has millions of discoveries still to be made, but they will be made on the basis of someone coming up with an idea and then producing some logical explanations and equations to justify what they think, and if it’s possible, some experiments which can be carried out to prove their point.
      Science does not advance by someone saying they have something but they’re not going to say how it works or even show that it does work, and then expect everyone to believe them.
      That is called something else.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        That is called the free enterprise system, you profit from your IP.

        • Ged

          Therefore, you’re willing to invest the time, energy, and resources necessary to make that IP.

    • Preston

      Also, muons were used to make these measurements. They replaced the electrons in hydrogen atoms with muons. Muons being much heavier then an electron obit much closer to the proton. Muon catalyzed fusion has been proven and is the only form of cold fusion currently accepted by the mainstream scientific community.

      • Roger Bird

        Of course, this assumes that the size of the proton did not change, like perhaps we did not just float in or out of a more or less dense region of dark energy or dark matter. Just speculating. When something this big (excuse the play of words) happens, anything could be the cause.

  • Christian Treczoks

    I remember one or two other recent publications on the size of the proton, leading to just another size altogether. With several different results, each clearly outside the other results margin of error, one might question what exactly they are measuring.

    As the scientist do not take a proton, hold it next to a ruler and say “Oh, looki, it is 1.7fm in diameter!”, they have to measure the diameter by indirect means.

    And this is where the trouble starts. Obviously, different paths lead to different results. Maybe the notion of “diameter” is not applicable to the object “proton” at all, as all they can measure just leads to an interpretation they call a “diameter”.

    Maybe some experiments measure some parameter related to the valence quarks, other means measure parameters of the gluon portion of the proton, and another group measures the quark/antiquark aspects, thus getting different values.

    I’m not convinced that a proton is a “ball shaped thingy” – even the notion “shape” might be a wrog word altogether when it comes to subartomic particles. And if the classic “shape” is no fitting property, “diameter” is neither.

    • georgehants

      I think it is just Wonderful that science is working openly toward an understanding of a very difficult subject.
      One can expect many “wrong” interpretations, that are not wrong at all but just steps on the way to an answer.
      The only way to find that answer is open research, research, research, without that research being destroyed by opinion, opinion, opinion.

    • Peter_Roe

      “Maybe the notion of “diameter” is not applicable to the object “proton” at all, as all they can measure just leads to an interpretation they call a “diameter”” et seq.

      My impression is that this is absolutely the right way to view such results. Everything at quantum levels depends on the methods used to make ‘observations’, when the mere act of observing becomes a part of the phenomenon or particle under observation.

  • Zaghlool

    “Well, it is impossible to understand perfectly all the secrets of the nature around us. Our brains and thoughts are very modest compared to the greatness of the creator.” – Zaghlool.
    This phrase is Zaghlool’s Trade Mark.

  • Hugo

    ‘SIGNATURES NEEDED BY FEBRUARY 25, 2013 TO REACH GOAL OF 100,000
    TOTAL SIGNATURES ON THIS PETITION 124

    How do we spread the Word !!! Can someone help.’

    This is a ridiculous petition. It claims (quote) In fact, several small companies founded by researchers claim to be very close to having LENR devices ready to go to market. (end quote) and then goes on to beg for research in this area. If these several small companies (I can only assume they mean Rossi, Defkalion and so on) really are close to having something ready to go to market, government funding in order to catch up would be a colossal waste of taxpayer’s money.

    • Peter_Roe

      My feeling is that the less that politicians like Obama become involved, the better.

  • Joannes Van den Bogaert

    To people concerned with “col fusion”,

    Please look at e-Cat Site the article “cold fusion catalyst”. Look also at “Belgian LANR Patents” and the possibilities of nuclear fusion of deuterium in deuterated metal particles by Coulomb explosion.

  • Joannes Van den Bogaert

    The radius of the proton cannot be independent of the translational speed (see theory of special relativity).
    An adequate equation for calculating the proton radius and proton mass at zero translational speed is given in Belgian Patent BE1002781 (pages 3-4) translated into English on e-Cat Site in the article “Belgian LANR Patents”. From that equation may be derived the nature of electrical charge (p) being dependent on mass (m) and radius (r) of spin (angular momentum) of a Fermi particle.