Why 3rd Party Test — Why Now?

Those who have been following the E-Cat story over the last couple of years have probably lost count of the number of times that Andrea Rossi turned down offers to test the E-Cat. His standard reply when people literally pleaded for him to allow competent third party testers have access to the E-Cat was that the only testing that really counted was that done by customers with real E-Cat products.

So there has been quite a change in attitude since Rossi announced that the third party tests were going on, and he has provided an interesting response to a JONP reader who asked about the reason for this new policy:

We decided to make this third party test because the proposal has been very honest, not from persons bound to our competitors aiming only to make espionage, as happened in past: some of these past wannabe validators have been discovered during a demo with unpermitted devices hidden under the sweater, or they, after writing open letters to test our device, turned out few months later to make tests in competition with us… This time the proposal was very honest and serious, we accepted, once and for ever before the industrial diffusion, to be subject to a third party indipendent test.

This shows a side of Rossi that I have noticed before — many of his decisions and professional relationships are based upon trust. He is certainly cautious, but it seems that he is not stubborn by principle. He will give careful consideration to ideas and proposals, and if he feels that they have merit, and come from trusted people he can be surprisingly flexible. That’s my guess regarding what happened in the case of creating the industrial partnership.

  • SolarSurfer

    “…persons bound to our competitors…some of these past wannabe validators have been discovered during a demo with unpermitted devices hidden under the sweater”

    Sounds rather paranoid. “Unpermitted devices”? Did they carry James Bond style x-ray machines disguised as a pack or Marlboros or what?

    • c. kirk

      Oh sure… why would anyone want to steal the secret to perhaps a major game changer in energy production?

      • SolarSurfer

        If anybody in the industry would seriously consider Rossi having the key to an energy revolution worth hundreds of billions and they wanted to find out, they’d surely not be so amateurish to walk into a demo carrying “unpermitted devices” under their sweaters. Who is he talking about anyway when he writes “competitors”? He isn’t talking about Siemens or GE. He’s talking about Defkalion (“…turned out few months later to make tests in competition with us…”). Now can you seriously imagine Michael Nelson sneaking into an e-cat demo carrying some fancy detector in his panties? I know it’s April 1st and all – but come on…

        • Peter Roe

          Alexandros Xanthoulis of Defkalion GT, reported by Mats Lewan in Ny Teknik, August 5, 2011:

          “I know what he’s got in the reactor, I know everything. It was a spectroscopy (Greek: ‘fasmatoscopy’) made by the university of Siena. It was an equipment made by the University of Siena. It understands everything that’s inside the reactor. So we know the components.”

          • GreenWin

            Poor Alexandros, simply couldn’t suppress his Grecian enthusiasm.

          • Poor Rossi, simply couldn’t suppress his enthusiasm to prove wrong stereotypies of Greeks.

        • Peter Roe

          From a Steve Featherstone article in Popsci, 23rd October 2012:

          “A handpicked audience of 40 journalists and scientists watched Rossi’s E-Cat gurgle steam for an hour. Physicist Francesco Celani, who had traveled to Bologna from Rome, brought along a spectrometer to measure spikes in gamma radiation, which could provide evidence that nuclear reactions did indeed power Rossi’s machine; Rossi demanded that Celani turn it off, lest he divine his secrets.”


    • kwhilborn

      This is common knowledge and true fact.

      We know that Professor Celani (of INFN) tried to sneak some measurements in spectral mode, and many are convinced that members of The University of Siena also snuck in a Spectrometer and took readings.

      Just google “Ecat Celani Siena demonstration” or some such thing and you will find a dozen articles about it.

      So yes people were sneaking in measurement tools to an open demonstration hidden under their folded sweaters.

      Defkalion has been a major party to claiming competition to the ecat, and they claim they got information obtained in these secret methods.

      Next time he does a demonstration he needs to have metal detectors and bouncers at the door.

      I was not going to comment on this article, but your statement is so obviously wrong. EVERYONE following the ecat story from the beginning knows about the spectrometer that was snuck into the demonstrations.. ANYBODY ELSE WANT TO 2nd this.

      • Peter Roe

        Seconded. Sceptics tend to suffer memory lapses when it suits their purposes (curiously at other times they can ‘recall’ Rossi-isms from 2 years ago word for word – when that suits their purposes).

        • GreenWin

          Aka “cognitive dissonance.”

        • I think I have seen a video where Celani tells a story that he had pretended to Rossi that he had diarrhea so that he could visit the toilet where the gamma ray sensor was hidden more frequently.

      • SolarSurfer

        According to Celani, Rossi objected when he was switching his sodium iodide detector from count to spectrum mode, saying it would give away too much information and Celani objected there was no point in inviting scientists to a demo when they weren’t even allowed to do their own measurements. Calling that espionage is just silly.

        • Silly or not.. The point is that he did not want everyone replicating his invention until he had a legal stronghold.

          If you tell someone they cannot bring something to a demonstration then people should abide by those rules. Saying the rules are silly does not validate breaking them.

          Look up Espionage in the dictionary and you will find that this is precisely what had occurred, and not just by Celani.

    • artefact

      It could be that he is refering to Celani who made gamma measurements in the bathroom next to the Jan. 2011 device during the startup phase. Later he told, that he saw increases in gamma when the reaction started above background. I think he was impressed by that and then started his own research.

      kwhilborn, you were faster than me.

      • Realy? I never heard of that.

        But if so, it’s nice to see Rossi impressed and convinced real scientist from the beginning, and woke up their interest to do own research which resulted in working devices (the Celani cell).
        That’s what we need.

        I hope this is going to increase rapidly after the first few civil plants are running and visitable.

        At the moment I 100% believe Rossi has what he says, and I am very nervous and curious about the 3rd party test results.

        If this report is positive, we also can expect that defkalion has what they claim. But their technology probably is in the stage Rossi was in 2005.

  • georgehants

    I have on occasion mentioned that the World is Quantum.
    Just in case any scientists or others are not aware of the scientifically known basis of our reality, a link below.
    By Deepak Chopra, M.D., FACP
    Murali Doraiswamy, MD, Professor of Psychiatry, Duke University Medical Center
    Rudolph E. Tanzi, Ph.D., Joseph P. and Rose F. Kennedy Professor of Neurology at Harvard University and Director of the Genetics and Aging Research Unit at Massachusetts General Hospital
    Menas Kafatos, Ph.D., Fletcher Jones Endowed Professor in Computational Physics, Chapman University.
    In our previous articles, we challenged a cherished point of view, that reality is material and external. There is a world “out there” that that every baby plops into when it is born. Convincing someone that this didn’t really happen is disturbing, and among scientists, whose worldview depends on the material world being real, hackles are raised as soon as you say otherwise. But we aren’t straying outside science in the quantum era. Our basic point, that the physical world lost its reassuring status a hundred years ago when the quantum revolution began — is beyond dispute.

    • GreenWin

      Fascinating that the inevitable introduction of low cost, abundant clean energy will accompany an equally astonishing revelation that the “reality” we think we know… is fake. I can see the dour looks from academics.

      “Hope in reality is the worst of all evils because it prolongs the torments of man.” Friedrich Nietzsche

      • georgehants

        GreenWin, what is so terribly sad is that these things are kept secret from the general population as much as possible and even many scientists are encouraged to skip over and avoid looking at reality.
        Hopefully, as with Cold Fusion even the most determined administrative attempts to hide and deny will be overcome by those unafraid to follow the Evidence.

      • Kim

        Yes that is correct

        A fake reality and abominable lie.


      • Jim

        It’s actually worse. “Fundamental Wisdom of the Middle Way”, by Indian Philosopher/Guru Nagajuna circa 400 AD (translation by Jay Garfield, at Amazon, and Guy Newland has a much easier book on the same subject)systematically destroys the idea that “a thing existing out there under its own power” has any *absolute* meaning at all. Yes, it has *conventional* meaning, yes, we all agree that the thing is there and we can do stuff with it. However, Nagarjuna’s text demonstrates that any claim that the thing has an independent, self-standing, external essence can be utterly defeated under unbeatable logical analysis. Wittgenstein basically came to the same conclusion 1500 years later. So not only does QM say it’s not there the way we think it is, there’s a fundamental problem with the way we –think– about it being “out there” to begin with. It’s a limitation of human mental modeling software that is very difficult to overcome, regardless of what QM shows us.

    • Fibber McGourlick

      The physical world resolves into pure energy. Theocratis.

  • An independent 3rd party validation report that is positive, is valuable to show the world that you are NOT alone in claiming the reality of your invention. Customers, investors, science and technical journals, etc. all can trust that you are legitimate and they can trust to get involved with your invention. There is one card that Trumps the 3rd party validation – a Energy Reactor that is on display, working and producing energy continuously, where it can be observed and tested by anyone. jdh

  • Nixter

    If the report actually supports Rossi’s claims, I think that Rossi and Company are signaling that the product is finally ready for the mass market, and that they are able to deliver working, guaranteed hardware in large quantities. If Rossi’s partner is interested in making a profit they will want to begin recouping their R&D investment as soon as possible. The publication is only a couple of weeks away, according to the most recent information, all of the followers of this story now anxiously wait for the news. If everything Rossi has been saying for the last few years is true, we are only seeing the beginning of a new era. Cold E-Cats and E-Cats that directly make electrical energy have been mentioned in the recent past. Validation of the basic E-Cat technology now will also confirm Rossi’s assertions made about recent breakthroughs being exploited in the immediate future.

    I also think that the identity of Rossi’s partner has been kept secret because as long as the technology is unproven, any affiliation with Rossi would be mostly damaging. If the report is accepted and it is able to be scrutinized by the various factions and mainly/mostly accepted as valid, the need for covering up their identity would lessen. We may then know the name of the mystery party within some months afterward. If I were to take a guess, I would say that the Rossi partners will have some sort of association or affiliation with the Military entity who purchased the early 1Mw plants a year ago. A company like GE who makes Atomic Submarines for the US Military while also heavily involved with many forms of energy generation and distribution is my first guess. If not GE it almost has to be a Company very similarly situated in the world market. Siemens is capable of handling such a technology, but it is a foreign owned Company, I see many problems with the US governmental infrastructure controlling such matters allowing such a hot technology commodity to be transferred offshore beyond our control without a considerable fight. I have no inside knowledge of this, with something of this magnitude, it is hard to imagine anything other than a large US Government approved US based Company taking control of the future of this very important and emergent technology.

    • psi

      Nixter, GE has always seemed to me the most probable partner, for the reasons you state. Also your analysis for the reasons for the company’s secrecy seem entirely plausible.

  • GreenWin

    This article from the German website borderlands.de may have some insight to the verifications on the way. Minimally they review the nervousness in the fossil markets, including links to oil field sell offs.

    While academic review of e-cat will confirm its operation and introduce an entirely new form of nuclear physics – it is all rather moot compared to commercial e-cat products producing heat, electricity and cooling for industrial applications.


    • Just for Information:
      The “NET-Journal” was founded and is controlled by Adolf Schneider, E-Cat distribution main-licensee of Germany, Switzerland and Austria!

      So don’t wonder why the article is very subjective and “Pro-Rossi”.

      Adolf Schneider is also founder of “TransAltec AG”, which is known for promoting and receiving orders for many other “free-energy devices” which never worked and never were delivered!

    • Regarding the PDF:
      It’s, like every NET-Journal article, amateurish written, no good german for the german-raised authors.

      There are a few interesting informations, but the most is pure speculation conveyed as facts.
      Maybe the current sellings of oil fields have to do with the positive test results which leaked behind the scenes already months ago.
      But they provide no evidence for such claims.

      NET-Journal articles have to be treated with caution 😉

    • artefact

      thanks barty.

    • kemo sabe

      That’s a pretty poor excuse for a scientific paper. Much of it is in point form, using sentence fragments, and it reads like he just copied stuff out of his log book or something. It is scarcely better than the collections of slides he’s got posted in various places, except that it gives even less information, and you have to jump back and forth to the end of the paper to see the figures. What’s the output power? What’s the input power? What’s the COP? It certainly isn’t obvious.

      There is a graph showing output/input, but the scale only goes to 0.85. From it, he is claiming a clear event of anomalous heat, presumably from the brief time that the curve appears to go off-scale. And even then, he only claims 60 kJ total energy, about the energy in a gram of gasoline. Like so many others in this field, he uses a tiny amount of material, so that the tiny amount of energy (consistent with experimental error) corresponds to a large energy density. Well, if it is, then use more material and see if the energy increases!

      As for the journal, it claims to be peer-reviewed, but it’s pretty clear that no one competent in English read it. Check out this quotation: “In other words, the experiment with power on Pt can be considered as blank, although with can’t excluded that some anomalous effect, because indirect heating of ISOTAN, could happen. At the moment the sensitivity of the calorimeter isn’t enough high to can discriminate such conditions.”

      Moreover, the format with the text and the figures separate indicates it is an amateur rag run by lazy editors. I checked a few databases that abstract journals and track impact factors, but it didn’t show up.

      This paper is not going to improve the reputation of the field, alas.

      • GreenWin

        Josh Cude/kem0/p0pee as we live and breathe! Your points are reasoned. Clearly, there was only a mechanical translation to English. The MFMP has gone far to explore the ISOTAN Celani effect and is now planning more sophisticated experiments. http://bit.ly/YXXGXo

        This paper was published under the open access policy of International Institute for Science, Technology and Education; IISTE. Its value is simply another addition to the mountain of perfectly decent papers replicating the LENR effect. Thatsa nice.

    • Sanjeev

      I read the pdf, its very brief and nothing new except I learn that he uses HNO3 and about the water calorimeter (which is a very good one, compared to the open air setup used in demo).

      I must say, its not so convincing. The COP hardly goes above 0.86. Yet he reports an excess of 60KJ, but does not mention how he got that value. It looks like an indirect calculation, because integrating the Pout curve directly would certainly show no excess, only a loss.

      If anyone can throw more light on the results, I’ll be grateful.

      • Niklas

        A lot of rumors in uppsala. Seems like it circulated privately in a discussion forum right now. And does anyone know if the author confirmed that he is the one who wrote it?

        • RenzoB

          is there link to the discussion to read?

        • LB

          What rumors?

        • GreenWin

          Dr. Roland Petterson?

    • Peter Roe

      Even in this paper, Celani carefully avoids giving the exact method of preparation of either the wire or the Zr/Pd ‘nano-micro material’, instead providing ranges of temps, times, etc and generalities that would not be sufficient to allow anyone to actually replicate the process.

      Ah, well, why should he – this stuff is worth a pile – IF rather more than the tiny effect indicated can be generated. It does put MFMP in the slightly awkward position of being unable to replicate the materials they use though, and therefore in effect testing a ‘black box’ just like Rossi’s test group. Their supply could disappear at any time if Celani sells his process to the big boys, like AR.

      Good to see the UK ‘represented’ by Kresenn Ltd.

  • Leo Kaas

    Seven Days since Rossi announced the end of testing. Hope the results are published soon. I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas.

    • “I feel like a kid waiting for Christmas.”
      YES, it has been a very long time since Rossi announced his E-Cat invention. We have waited patiently, trusting in Rossi and hoping for a wonderful new world – with ample new energy of everyone and everything, and NO pollution. I have a wonderful little song I listen to and sometimes sing along, while I wait for Rossi: http://rossifocardifusion.com/andrea-rossi-and-his-impossible-dream#comment-274 Please join in, listen and sing along. jdh

  • georgehants

    Smithsonian releases Wright bros. contract detailing ‘first in flight’ claims
    Were the Wright brothers first in flight? Read the fine print.
    A little-known 1948 contract between the estate of Orville Wright and the Smithsonian has the museum legally bound to call the Wright brothers first in flight: “The Smithsonian shall [not state] any aircraft … earlier than the Wright aeroplane of 1903 … was capable of carrying a man under its own power in controlled flight,” it states.
    Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/science/2013/04/01/contract-forcing-smithsonian-to-call-wright-bros-first-in-flight/#ixzz2PEmniFYx

  • Greg Leonard

    I expect it will be that bunch of Swedish professors and the Ny Technic reporter doing the recent testing

    • psi

      Unless I am mistaken Rossi has already stated that 11 Professors from eleven different Universities are involved in the testing protocols. Can anyone else verify or correct this?

  • GreenWin

    Germane to 3rd Party confirmation that a huge (necessary) transition is underway. In an article titled “America’s Power Grid is Like and Old Car,” Jonathan Fahey of the Associated Press describes the second hand state of U.S. utilities.

    Drilling down to numbers we find centralized power and transmission grids are the major cause of high cost electricity. For example, New York City’s Consolidated Edison, the nation’s largest grid system serves 3+ million customers. Annual spending per customer on local distribution equipment and maintenance rose about twice as fast as the rate of inflation, from $163 to $232. That’s $696M annually just to maintain the grid (not even a “smart grid.”)

    Con Ed utilizes: 2,204 primary feeders and 61 area substations in New York’s six boroughs:

    94,000 miles of cable
    264,000 manholes and service boxes
    35,000 underground transformers

    34,000 miles of cable (stretch between New York and Los Angeles 11X)
    206,000 utility poles
    47,000 overhead transformers

    Vast arrays of expensive, vulnerable, wiring & equipment just to transmit electricity to equivalent of 10% the population Mexico City! One expects these costs to double if “Smart Grid” technology is implemented. Altogether this paints an energy picture that is wholly unsustainable.

    Which is why implementation of LENR in District (neighborhood) and Distributed (residential) power networks is inevitable. There is simply no reasonable way to patch and fix this century old method of making and transmitting energy. What an amazing opportunity for innovation.

    • artefact

      Yes, today the biggest part of the cost of household electricity is not the fuel itself. The sources one can use without connection to the grid (solar, wind) are expensive themself.
      Lenr is cheap and available without overland grid.

      • FlanOBrien

        Citigroup: How solar module prices could fall to 25c/watt

        Maybe people will prefer solar and keep their nuclear reactions one astronomical unit away, instead of in their basements?

        • GreenWin

          Citigroup analysts issued a whole bunch of solar “Buys” in February, 2013. Then came March 20th, and the world’s largest solar panel maker Suntech went BK:

          “The global solar industry boom of recent years has turned, inevitably and painfully, into bust. Subsidies lavished by Chinese officials encouraged over-production by local manufacturers, helping to produce a glut on world markets even as their cut-price tactics wiped out rich-world rivals and prompted reprisals in the form of anti-dumping duties and other threatened retaliation.” http://www.economist.com/blogs/schumpeter/2013/03/suntechs-bankruptcy

          Is that any way to treat your investors Citigroup?? Do I believe Citigroup forecasts on solar panel profitability?

          No, I’ll take my XYZbrand E-CAT producing heat and electricity for $0.0025/kWh in the basement. Nuclear fears?? Heck we had X-rays in the living room for 50 years (aka television.)

  • Stuey81

    Has anyone thought about the. Implications LENR could have on the “hydrogen on demand” sector? I can see this tech being retro fitted to many internal combustion applications, where batteries just arnt suited! Hydrogen has allways been expensive to produce, taking more electricity to make it then what its worth, but with LENR all of a sudden many applictions that wernt fesible in the past suddenly become so. I can picture a lawn mower with a tiny reactor on it and a water tank for instance. Your thoughts on lenr generated H?

    • lcd

      That is just the beginning. Medicine chemistry biology, etc, this impacts every field of study and all its derivative application space.
      Its hard to predict where the societal equilibrium state will end up. Thats why its fascinating and frustrating.

      • Stuey81

        I remember reading some years ago about hydrogen being passed through some sort of membrane generating electricity with no moving parts, at least at that part of the process, i dont recall the effinciy but would be interesting to see if it might be better then steam thru a turbine perhaps.

    • Barry

      LENR, as far as I know, requires an extremely small amount of hydrogen.

      • Stuey81

        Barry, your missing my point

  • dsm

    The issue of declined tests is a big negative for Andrea Rossi. The test he turned down that disturbed me most, was when he declined the invitation to have Uni of Uppsala evaluate an eCat back in 2011. The offer IIRC came from Sven Kullander.

    A reminder …

    Kullander believes that Rossi for their own sake must be sure to get an independent verification of heat output and that he was not to be overtaken should ally itself with some great players, like Siemens or ABB. One problem here may be that Rossi has a deep personal relationship with their cats, as he usually describe them. Kullander has offered Rossi to test and verify an ECAT in Uppsala in collaboration with the University of Bologna. Discussions on this are ongoing. Kullander preclude an agreement whereby secrecy around that they have an ECAT in place or that the results may not be shown publicly.(From a report by Bertil Nilsson in Sweden)

    The above tests never happened.

    Andrea Rossi’s latest claim for 3rd party tests unfortunately leaves us in the dark as to who these people are and that is unprofessional. Why mention it at all if he won’t say who ?. He would have done better to wait until the testing was done before spending months claiming it was “real soon now”. Again IMHO very unprofessional & sadly a repeat performance by Andrea that adds greatly to my cynicism as to his motives and goals.


    • c. kirk

      It’s obvious that you concluded a long time ago that Rossi is a scammer IMHO that is dumb

      • dsm

        I don’t recall saying that in my post ?
        It is easier when we stick to the facts.
        Your conclusion may be ‘obvious’ to you
        but it isn’t to me.

        I am sure Andrea Rossi believed he could
        and would get his eCats working the way he
        hoped. But, it takes extraordinary cross
        discipline expertise to do so.

        Another challenge is dealing with the claims
        and when claims are made publicly (globally)
        that don’t materialize, then that should raise
        honest concerns.



      • Bob

        c.kirk, I don’t think that assessment is correct.
        Many and maybe even most people took what Rossi said at the time as being up front and genuine. However, after an extended period of things not happening as announced, most people, me included, started looking back over earlier announcements and compared them with the later outcomes. It’s easy to do that after the event.
        I don’t have to point out that there are major inconsistencies.
        Some of the inconsistencies can be excused on the basis that the original proclamation was either too hasty and not thought out properly, or just plain impractical. These can be excused.
        However, there are too many inconsistencies which cannot be explained in any way other than as proof of a major discrepancy between the claimed performance of the ecat and reality.

        • C. Kirk

          IMHO you are incorrect…. My confidence level is approx 75 to 80 % that Rossi has created a Nickel Hydrogen anomolous heat reactor with a cop of 6 and an output of at least 1kw based on:
          Rowan University were able to duplicate Randle Mills (BlackLight Power) Nickel Hydrogen reactor that had a cop of 1.6 to 6.0 (a series of experiments over a period of several years) (the reaction really took off at 60 degrees celcius) measurement error? maybe.. but I doubt it…. then various demo’s by Rossi then various videos including L.E.N.R. revolution.etc and I just couldn’t see why Focardi would risk his name/reputation or Stremennos etc (money… maybe but I seriously doubt it…. and then anonomous comments on the internet (I rememember a comment about a year ago… I know someone who works for National Instruments and they say the E-Cat is real but a hard beast to tame or something like that) then some comments by passerini … and Jed Rothwell etc etc etc etc etc etc I am about ready to ordere my Andrea Rossi tee shirt and mug (zazzle.com) and if by Sept 1st there is no third party verification or a news report on mainstream media about the God of the new fire and his 1MW nickel hydrogen anomolous heat generator with a CoP of 6 I will burn the shirt, smash the mug and curse Mr. Rossi , however my champagne cork is out about 75% and I expect to be filling my mug with Crown Royal Whiskey but hell, in a soap opera you never know how things will turn out

        • GreenWin

          BTW Bob, what IS reality?

          • Bob

            Do you really need to ask?
            I think I see a problem.

          • GreenWin

            i.e. you have no answer.

          • Bob

            Of course I do but since the answer is so obvious I didn’t think it needed a definition.
            However, since you ask again I will reply in relation to ecats;-
            Reality is what actually exists.
            If it is just said to exist, it might be a reality or it might be a figment of the imagination. However, until it is proven to exist it is not accepted reality.
            So, at this point, ghosts, UFOs, water divining are not proven realities and are therefore not accepted as being realities.
            Relating this to ecats, they are a definite reality because people have seen them working, people have picked them up and looked at them. The only question left to answer on them is, do they work as claimed. This wont alter whether they are real or not, but it will alter whether they are of any use or not.

          • GreenWin

            “However, until it is proven to exist it is not accepted reality.”

            And Schroedinger’s cat before observation? Or any particle superposition. If we have proof of transmutation in CF experiments, is CF real?

          • psi

            “This shows a side of Rossi that I have noticed before — many of his decisions and professional relationships are based upon trust. He is certainly cautious, but it seems that he is not stubborn by principle. He will give careful consideration to ideas and proposals, and if he feels that they have merit, and come from trusted people he can be surprisingly flexible.”

            Yes. I noticed this too. A very telling sign in favor of Rossi’s character and militating against the reflexive criticisms of many of his “skeptics.”

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    • captain

      Rossi, to PROTECT his invention, his IP on E-Cats, has let me say, fighted in his mind for at least the two final years: he was working in such a condition 16/24!
      But finally he has done the best move he could, that of a ‘partnership’ with a strong true american co., but what a co. 🙂 and that is still under NDA.

      A move much better than having his E-Cat tested, inspected, certified, and his IP revealed (in an innocent way, in an honest way, for the sake of the technology, of the human progress, but REVEALED) to the world all over because of USPTO known situation.
      His creature given in hands not of 2 unies, but 20 unies, because 20 are much better than 2 🙁 What a shame!!!
      With the obvious consequences… use your brain to imagine.

      Shortly: backedup by his partner, a partner highly specialized in that specific field, BTW, with all the knowledge to carry on Leonardo’s job, with thi$ power, with thi$ guarantee, anyway, for his invention, with the ‘technological authority deriving from the new partner… Rossi, who so far, has shown only a minimal potential of his creature, has taken the decision to allow a 3rd party independent test.

      He has thought it was the right moment to do that, because feeling himself protected by his new strong partner, whose name is still secret, or better under NDA.

      His partner is capable of producing all his plants, to put them in operation in its particular sites, protected sites, and released almost the world all over,: it can built complete power plants, and finally, as we recently have known from Rossi himself, the 1MW hot plants are sold/released in leasing for a 30 yrs period, to the customers… with some important guarantees.

      And the unies, in the meantime? Wait and see, but the E-Cats will keep on running efficiently and producing clean, safe, CHEAP energy he he he…
      And the USPTO, in the meantime? As above, he he he…

      Words are words, but facts are facts, as Rossi would say: real facts will speak for me!

      • dsm


        I couldn’t agree more with the final point you made …
        “Words are words, but facts are facts, as Rossi would say: real facts will speak for me!”

        That sums up my hopes & position very accurately. I am like so many others following this and want to see LENR succeed and that applies to whoever can make this happen.



        • C. Kirk

          then why do you say elsewhere …”look at Rossi trying to scam people by saying he wants to help children with cancer… or something to that effect” that disturbs me a lot Oh course if he is proven to be a scammer I couldn’t agree with you more… however I say innocent until proven guilty you aren’t required to invest any money….

          • dsm

            C. Kirk.

            Please, where did that topic come up here? – not by me!.

            I fear you are resorting to ‘shoot the messenger’ because you don’t like the message.

            My message has been that any reasonable person needs to question claims that simply fail to materialize. Repeatedly !. Is that an unfair or unreasonable challenge ? – I don’t think so.

            If someone posts something you know to be wrong false or untrue, point it out and quote your source accurately rather than guessing or fabricating.

            Open and honest debate no matter if you agree or disagree with a POV benefits us all. Fabricating unrelated half claims to try to blacken another poster is simply not good and benefits no one.

            Thanks & please do jump on anything I say here that is not correct. but do it fairly 🙂



          • Peter Roe

            Hi DSM

            C. Kirk referred to one of your comments ‘elsewhere’. I think that many of us are probably aware of your frequently ‘believer bashing’ posts on ECN and may tend to over-interpret your comments here as a result.

            It may be not so much what you say, but how you say it – given your history.

          • GreenWin

            Peter, looks like the ECN clan is rallying their last stand. The behavior dynamics of sceptics facing annihilation is fascinating. Who will be their Custer?

            It appears their last gasp is to infer this remarkable technology is not protected by IP law. Guess they never heard of international trade secret statutes.

          • Peter Roe

            The whimpers and whines do seem to be getting fainter don’t they! Even Quax seems to be more interested in actual discussion of physics issues on his blog, than in providing a platform for the pathoskeps’ endless sneering, so the poor souls have nowhere to go except back to ‘the village of the banned’.

          • GreenWin

            Ha! Excellent movie!

      • captain

        Of course, thru his partner, has already applied to USPTO to have his rights protected, obviously.

    • GreenWin

      Doug, you seem confused about independent verification. Consider a blind or double blind study to avoid bias. These 3rd party testers are supposed to be unassociated with AR to avoid bias. They have likely requested zero publicity so as to avoid any embarrassment or professional penalty should LENR and E-cat all be a Randi-Magician trick.

      As for the peer review process, you may have forgotten it is often, usually anonymous, again to protect reviewers from bias. So what is “unprofessional” about the testing process? Are you privy to the process? Did they not wear white coats in the lab? What profession are you talking about? The writing is long on the wall. It appears the E-cat works as claimed (or better) and nobody knows exactly how or why. Admitting that fact is the height of professional science IMO.

      • dsm


        I could go back to the 3rd party validation promised before the dealer conference for delivery just after it, ‘3rd party independent validation’ and when the names of the 3rd parties came out they weren’t what all would call valid authorities & the validation just didn’t happen. Then there was the claim for last year in Nov that didn’t happen, then this claim for Feb, slipped to March, now slipping to April, then June.

        GreenWin, it is great to be supportive of anyone who has the wherewithall to change the world. But, a world of people who don’t question, especially when there is enough doubt to do so is IMHO a worse world where we might all believe what we are told without question.

        Again I like the Captain’s comment “Words are words, but facts are facts, as Rossi would say: real facts will speak for me!”.

        Let us all ‘hope’ that this multi-year story finally produces tangible facts that we can all celebrate & really get excited about. Many of those who believe we don’t need proofs are asking for ‘blind-faith’ and the problems with that are as obvious as how far a blind person can see.



        • GreenWin

          Ah well, one can live one’s life endlessly doubting, worrying, paralyzed by fear, crippled by thoughts of victimization, tormented by illusory timelines, loss of prestige… or not.

          I think it fair to say the majority here choose to take the high road. That road Doug, has led to the successful commercialization of cold fusion, invented 23 years ago by Stan Pons and Martin Fleischmann. That alone is a joyful, uplifting event. I am happy to have had a part in it. And to come to know others who helped make it happen. 🙂 Have a lovely day!

        • “a world of people who don’t question…”
          There have been so MANY questions about Rossi and his E-Cats. However, Rossi HAS TO MAINTAIN SECRECY and we can understand that. He HAS PROMISED soon to show the world an independent 3rd party validation report and to install an industrial reactor for all to see. Anyone can quit in frustration and go back to a world where there is NO HOPE for a future of safe, clean, abundant energy. I choose to continue my hope that Rossi will succeed with his reactor development. jdh

    • psi

      “Andrea Rossi’s latest claim for 3rd party tests unfortunately leaves us in the dark as to who these people are and that is unprofessional.”

      I disagree. When the results are published the authors will be identified. Under the circumstances, both they and Rossi have every reason to keep their identities under wraps.

  • FlanOBrien

    What knowledge could Rossi have, that predecessors in the nickel lattice-hydrogen field did not have?

    There were no sophisticated scientific apparatus at his base in Bologna during the demonstration. We saw a bag of plumbing tools. Perhaps such apparatus was situated elsewhere? If so, that would conflict with Rossi’s (justifiable?) paranoia about secrets being stolen.

    Rossi himself admitted his putative discovery was obtained through trial and error and inspiration.

    The above suggests to me that if Rossi has something, it is something that could easily be duplicated, especially if the whole world switch on to the field. This is why there have been no valid tests up to now.

    Because the knowledge can easily be by-passed through alternative means, this is also the reason for their being no successful Rossi patents: such applications must contain ambiguity to protect this easily by-passed knowledge.

    Someone posted above “The point is that he did not want everyone replicating his invention until he had a legal stronghold.”

    IMO there is no legal stronghold. Rossi has talked many times about crushing competition on price and productivity. This is his only defence.

    Of course there have been many comments on how Rossi might have proceeded differently and benefited himself and humanity years ago, but this thread is not the place.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Rossi is treating his E-Cat as a trade secret until he has a competitive advantage in manufacturing and until he can overcome a very political patenting process. He is a great inventor and a pretty good businessman.

    • MStone

      I am patent pending right now…and let me tell you…there can be no ambiguity in the patent. You protect it by making it as broad as you can to cover as many “short cut” aspects as you can. But the invention has to be repeatable by a person of ordinary skill in the field…cant be ambiguous.

      • FlanOBrien

        I agree with you. That is why Rossi’s applications have been rejected to data.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Why is Rossi so cautious? In my opinion it goes back to 11/29/2011 article in Ny Teknik written by Mats Lewan. The above article quotes Alexandros Xanthoulis, President of Defkalion:

    “- Let’s say I have Rossi’s formula, but I do not say it officially. My scientists have found a way to accomplish it. They need three months. I know what is in the reactor. I know everything. It was done with spectroscopy at Siena University of Padova (…) They tested the reactor without [Rossi] knew what they were doing, he continued.”

    After this testing in Siena, date not given, Rossi became super cautious, and I do not blame him. Anyone in high tech will tell you IP espionage is rampant.

    • dsm


      Andrea Rossi has *always* kept his eCats tightly under his control. So do you believe Andrea Rossi when he said repeatedly that DGT do not have his formula or his ‘catalyst’ and they never got anywhere near an eCat to do such a test. If you don’t believe him on this why ?.

      Even your own quote says it was a university supposedly doing the spectrograph.

      Also do you believe a spectrometer analysis will explain the construction of the particles or would merely list detected materials.

      When does claimed excessive caution give way to proofs ? – at what point will someone else step up to the mark and deliver ?

      This can’t go on forever hidden under a shield of excused & accepted paranoia !.



      • Ken

        Ok DSM lets think about this. Rossi caught them with the spectrograph before they were able to use it effectively, or maybe he thought he did. Hell maybe he said it out of defense because he knew he would lose support if it were correct. Now the question becomes, can you trust what defkalon was saying especially seeing how they were bragging about stealing Rossi’s formula. You’re telling us we should belief a thief over someone building a new world and a better one at that. Cmon, you’re one sided and can’t be persuaded if it was in your face so why do i even bother. Your comments on this topic have seriously degraded the atmosphere of the discussion. It’s just the nit-picking way you do it. Word it differently or something.


        • dsm2


          You post is full of ‘maybe’ ? – doesn’t that have you thinking about what you know as fact vs consider as a ‘maybe’ ? – It does me.

          In the past I worked for a global corporation that was classified a monopoly and sold technology and had to state fact about our products. We relied on our ability to substantiate this and support it with our products. We were trained annually to be scrupulously honest in our dealings else risk being fired. The US Govt watched us like hawks (in particular eras).

          One job I had was setting up partnerships with companies who wanted to deal with my employer and for me, in regard to Andrea Rossi’s business activities (Roger Green collecting agency fees & questions about this activity usually being deleted from JoNP) I can say that my alarm bells have been ringing loudly since Andrea turned down the offer from an ardent willing supporter to validate the eCat (Sven Kullander) and since Roger Green began his fund raising activities that so many people simply ignore.

          I still keep coming back to the great quote in this current thread from ‘Captain’ – “Words are words, but facts are facts, as Rossi would say: real facts will speak for me!”.

          It is brilliant in its simplicity and clarity. I wonder if Captain realized how insightful this sentence was ?. I hope he did.



          • captain

            Hi DSM, Rossi is honest, sincere and a modest person too.
            A self-made scientist, that so far has not yet let known common people the real strength of his cats. A tremendous power, believe.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        DSM……when the President of Defkalion says “my scientists” took the spectroscopy what am I supposed to think? What I am saying is Rossi learned to be very cautious from that experience of dishonest people trying to steal his IP, and up tell now would not consider another “third party” testing his invention. When you say “excused & accepted paranoia” that is from your perspective. If it was not for Rossi being open to suggestions and questions in his Journal most of us would have never heard of the E-Cat and would not know about it until it hit the market.

        • GreenWin

          Bernie, not worth it. Circular logic creates tailspin. Bad for flight.

        • dsm

          The Greek -> Danish & -> English original write up complete with all its misunderstandings and mistakes.

          Which includes this update that Ny Tecknik posted in Dec 2011 “UPDATED (Dec 1): Defkalion has clarified that it was the University of Padua, where an anaylis of used Nickel powder actually was performed, commissioned by Rossi./End update” which proves how garbled the whole story was and remains.


          Bernie I say again that it is you who claim DGT ‘stole’ Andrea’s secret when in fact you have nothing in words or proof anywhere that in any way backs up your biased version.

          You also need to recall that DGT was founded with Rossi’s permission in late 2010 by Prof Stremmenos who asked the Greek Govt to help, and they did, and DGT was formed for the purpose of selling Rossi eCats as the core of their Hyperion family.

          DGT after 6-8 months realized Rossi did not have a commercial ready product and their business was about to collapse before it even really got started. in mid 2011 they declined to give Rossi any large sum of money until *he* showed he had a product, he didn’t and still hasn’t. Then Rossi terminated the relationship. And you think DGT are the ‘naughty’ guys.

          The real story is a far cry for the biased one that DGT are a bunch of Greek crooks out to steal from Andrea. That is simply a fairy story.

          Andrea still has no commercial ready eCat that any company could use in heating products. That is an unfortunate ‘fact’ and that tells a lot about why DGT and Andrea’s relationship fell apart.

          But do persist with the theft theory if you must. Again I have no love for DGT but consider they were a legitimate business caught between a rock and a hard place and not all through their own efforts.

          I *do* appreciate we all have differing views about the players in this saga. I certainly started out being pro Andrea and anti DGT. As a result of the available evidence though, I an now not in favour of either but did develop some sympathy for the mess DGT was dropped into. I also think they showed *some* maturity in shutting up soon after their split with Andrea.



  • Silvio Balatelli

    Rossi cautious and secretive? Why did he continuously communicate through a blog before having a working device and a patent protection? Nobody in business operates like this. This is either very unprofessional or he needs to feed the public, for a reason.

    • Peter Roe

      Anyone is free to create a new ‘business model’ at any time. Whatever the reasons that Rossi chooses to throw out occasional tid-bits to a few blog readers, I doubt this is a significant part of his operations.

  • georgehants

    Desert nomads marvel at water purifying device.
    More than 330 million people in sub-Saharan Africa, or around 40 percent of the population, do not have access to clean drinking water, according to a report published to mark world water day by British NGO WaterAid.
    Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-04-nomads-marvel-purifying-device.html#jCp

  • Gerald

    Looks like the first 1 Mw hotcat wil be delivered 30 april. non milletary


    • Peter Roe

      That’s what the man said on his blog. Whether we’ll hear much more than ‘the hot cat unit has been delivered and the customer is happy’ on 30th April is another matter (although Rossi has sort of half-promised a picture of delivery taking place). It seems likely to me that the identity of the customer may be witheld pending collection of a few weeks of performance data to be used in an official ‘launch’ a month or two after delivery.

  • Knighthawk

    The date of the OP says it all.