Hopeful Noises

Just a note to readers here that from my research and contacts I have come across what I consider reliable information from individuals I trust who have knowledge about the 3rd party testing that confirm that the results are indeed positive as Andrea Rossi has indicated. From what I have heard, publication may not be delivered in the middle of April as some are hoping, but only because great care is being taken to ensure that the information presented is as accurate and comprehensive as possible. What I have learned is general in nature, and I can’t reveal any more than I have here.

I hope that it won’t take too long for the events to play out, and I have no knowledge of the timing of the report, but what I have learned gives me hope that we may be on the threshold of an important event in this fascinating story.

  • Curbina

    We are all here hoping Frank!!! Thansk for sharing your thoughts!!!

    • Invient

      My glass is half full again… This time I’ll sip it slowly.

  • artefact

    Thank you very much Frank!!!
    I just wanted to go to bed. Now I think I will not be able to sleep 🙂

  • Fabio S.

    I’m so excited now! But … another delay?

  • artefact

    “Wife, did you put the Champagne in the fridge? ‘yes’ Did you check the temperature of the fridge? ‘yes’ “excellent” artefact said full of anticipation.

  • Roger Bird

    I am pretty certain that the event was positive; I now only worry about whether the report of the event was positive.

    The other thing that is of concern (since it is really against my religion to worry) is whether the mainstream media and science is going to give it the attention and awes and ooohs that it deserves.

    • artefact


      The article says:
      “..who have knowledge about the 3rd party testing that confirm that the RESULTS are indeed positive as Andrea Rossi has indicated”

    • Omega Z


      Just a Small Short Splash when the Positive Report comes out.


      Because the Mainstream Public wont be that Interested for very long…

      Joe Public asks- Will it make it cheaper for me to fill up the Tank tomorrow?

      Me- No, It’s going to take a few years for it to roll out & have a real impact.

      Joe Public- Get Back To Me When It Does.
      I have an appointment with another 9 Holes. Bye..

      SAD But True. The General Public will complain about things then move on. Indifferent to whats happening around them.

      I Hate to say it, But, We that frequent here are the exception. We’re no different then those who wait for the latest I-Phone & camp out the day before it becomes available. We are but a small percentage of the whole. Geeks of sorts.

  • PersonFromPorlock

    Another delay is the only significant news here. And not a surprise.

    • Ken

      Trolling seems to be the only significant purpose of you posts. Oh and it’s not a surprise.


    • NJT

      If you believe the delaying aspect of Franks report, then you must also believe the good news aspect – correct?

  • George N

    This NYT OpEd might explain why the media may not fully report on the positive ecat report – a senior member of the political establishment has painted a very dark picture of the current financial situation we are in with a new twist: the Fed has created a bubble in the financial markets and can’t stop printing money or else it will trigger a mass sell off, which would bankrupt many firms on wallstreet that won’t be able to be bailed out this time. The media and politicians do not investigate or report on the specific details of where the Quantitative Easoning digital currencies that the fed is “printing” are going to because this might cause sell offs as well. I don’t think it would be too far of a leap use this to explain one of the reasons why the mainstream media may not report on a positive scientific paper on the ecat – it may be too disruptive of a technology that would trigger sell offs in a very tenuous time that the establishment has gotten itself into… http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/31/opinion/sunday/sundown-in-america.html?pagewanted=4&_r=1&smid=tw-share&

    • GreenWin

      George, interesting ideas. Indeed the Fed Reserve (a private corporation by deal with devi… er, Congress) has painted itself into a corner with the “Petro-dollar.” The only reason Fed can print money is because of projected oil revenue. But even a business school freshman learns single source suppliers are DEATH. The Fed and Henry Kissinger who made the Petro-dollar” deal, never considered they were sleeping with a one trick pony: oil.

      The pony is about to give up the ghost. The Fed had better figure out how to replace Petro-dollars with “New Fire” dollars or, there will be an unhappy outcome on Wall Street. And certain “Feds” will be held responsible.

      BTW, George, you should be in bed!

      • A technical innovation such as the E-cat spurs growth of the real economy. Normally the central banks respond by printing money so that the fiscal economy scales with the real one. This time they have done it prematurely (“proactively”), but at the end it shouldn’t be a problem.

        • georgehants

          Morning Pekka, are you going to judge my bet that the “report” will not be published by any “premier” journal without a editorial or some thing putting it down.
          Remember a £100 pounds to E-Cat World if they do.

          • georgehants

            Wladimir Guglinski
            April 6th, 2013 at 6:05 PM
            To the readers of Rossi’s JNP:
            The present paper Stability of light nuclei has been declined by the most reputable journals of Physics of the world:
            All the editors used unacceptable arguments so that to decline the paper.
            Here are exhibited the reports, and my reply to the editors of each journal.
            Wladimir Guglinski

          • Morning George. Yes I have said that it’s likely that the journal is Nature or Science and I still think so. Not that it would matter so much, and other possibilities also exist. I’m happy if you donate something to e-cw for any reason, but I’m not used to making bets for money myself.

          • georgehants

            Pekka. no no I do not mean for you to bet.
            Just for you to judge if the report is in a “premier” journal and given fair coverage without any attempt at debunking.
            As I said, I really hope to lose my bet, but you can see my point by reading the Wladimir comment link above.

        • Richard

          They are printing some 45 billion dollars a MONTH to keep up appearances. You don’t think that will be a problem, even with the BRIC countries looking for a way to end the petrodollar hegemony?

          They are dragging everyone in the ‘developed world’ into the gutter, and we’re watching them do it.

          If you meant that it shouldn’t be a problem if Goldman Sachs and the other great financial manipulators on Wall Street will finally go down the drain, then I couldn’t agree more!

          • George N

            I am confident that the market will eventually correct itself and finally put the crony capitalists on Wall Street and inside the DC beltway out of business. There may be a good chance though that the economic demand slows to a halt sometime in the future due to advancements in the tech epicenters in 3d printing, li-fi/terahertz graphene antennas (hopefully FCC will delegate that unused frequency range to the commons), hot-cats, baxters, etc. This may cause cities to break down and people move out to rural areas where there is naturally more security and less need for government oversight (because people aren’t crammed together), and the people will have the tech for self sustainment with no loss of quality of life and with less time devoted to “work”.

            But this market correction could be relatively smooth because the crony capitalists have shown that they have been able to manage inflation to only affect the stock market (more or less), and the unnamed groups that are receiving all of the Feds “printed” money probubly will not sell no matter what in order to stave off a mass sell-off on wall street. Either way, it’s an interesting drama that’s unfolding very slowly!

      • George N

        I’m starting to think that Bitcoin may be the last currency standing when all is said and done! I’m hoping that it does not take too long to develop vapor-water condensers and purified waste-water sprinklers (based on rossi’s old petro dragon tech?) to replace the current infrastructure once the ecat is widely available — hopefully before all the governments go bankrupt!

        BTW, GreenWin I think was woken up by my iPhone buzzing about something, then out of habit I checked e-catworld from my iPhone, so technically is was still in bed!

  • Roger Bird

    I am sitting at a stop light and I realized that the grid will not be going away suddenly. There are all of these electrical thingies owned by the city that will need electricity. And the city will not be wanting to risk a $500 E-Cat (quantity discount, I’m sure) sitting on or near a stop light pole. Some people will want back-up in case the dang contraption stops working properly. There are other reasons why the grid will not be going away. But energy workers should be spiffing up their resumes because utility companies will be letting people off.

    • Mop

      The grid does not have to go away. You already are connecting houses to the grid that are feeding electricity into it from solar panels on rooftops. There’s also the random single wind turbine on some farmers property feeding into the grid. LENR could mean more people connecting such tiny feeds to the power grid. The change would be slow and not sudden. A step-by-step transformation of the grid with every new LENR reactor that comes online on someone’s private property. In the end, everyone would be sharing the energy they produce with each other through the power grid.

      • Kim

        With people like that young strap
        in N. Korea aiming at us.

        I have to believe that people are
        starting to think “Off Grid” more and


      • mark

        The grid will not go away but Extra high voltage cable systems > 100KV have no future when LENR technologies are mature. The power sources will be more and more localized at much lower voltages

        • +1
          big factories have no future.
          All energies are doomed, except LENR and maybe hydro (not so sure it can survive).
          Nuke have future only for nuclear waste remediation, through nuclear incineration, if LENR cannot do it already (Piantelli have a patent for such an application, and Mitsubishi/Iwamura, worked on that).

          • Richard

            AlainCo, are you seriously predicting that solar energy has no future?

          • give me a serious reason that an energy , more expensive, consuming more ground space, more energy to build, more resource over the life, with more polluting components, may be competitive….

            same for all other energies…
            The only cheap energy that may survive is hydroelectricity because dam have to exist, and electricity is only a byproduct… not sure it will be cheap enough.

            maybe you can have arguments, my reasoning is simple, I may have missed some detail.

            of course photovoltaic may be useful for some devices…

          • Hydroelectric dams have a devastating effect on migrating fish. Salmon cannot live in a river which is blocked by dams.

          • Omega Z


            Dams have other purposes then just Energy production.
            But if this energy is no longer needed, then they may be built in a more ecologically friendly way.

          • Omega Z


            Solar will be a niche market.

            Also I can think of many small devices where it would be both handy & economical. Especially if it’s efficiency is improved.

            But I Agree, Large Solar farms will be Gone..

          • Ryan

            I could see it having a purpose as a backup, onsite power source in the advent your primary source (LENR in this case) breaks down. It will also probably have an extended life in space exploration as a backup power source, again just in case the primary goes down for some reason.

      • GreenWin

        Mop is correct. The “grid” is essentially an electrical distribution network. As LENR is implemented in District community and Distributed residential systems, the grid becomes the backup network for both. That is, as LENR appliances enter communities, they will retain their grid connects to provide smoothing, backup (aka UPS) services to their neighbors.

        District LENR powergens (5-10MW) will provide the first “offgrid” opportunities for industrial facilities like universities, medical centers, municipal offices, community centers, etc. Once these District systems establish baseline LENR power, heating and cooling for their subscribers, adoption of single family, multi-family Distributed energy appliances will commence.

        Just as we eventually saw a refrigerator in most western homes, we can expect to see a home CCHP in residences 20 years on.

        The world of capital finance will need to find vehicles for stable income instruments, as utilities and their bonds (without vision) become so much arcana.

        • georgehants

          GreenWin I must invite you to the World of no money, no finance etc. Linda the other day gave the answer when she said, “as in Star-trek.”
          Millions at first put out of work and unemployed, everybody given a fair basic level of needs and luxuries from age 16, then only those giving to society receiving more “points” for a higher standard of living.
          Everybody when the necessary work is shared working a short week and retiring at say 50.

          • orsobubu

            This is a communist production system, already depicted 150 years ago by Marx and Engels (see Antiduhring, for example) and it is surely a good perspective, but only feasible by a revolution, because the financial-capitalistic oligarchy, in the past, started wars and counter-revolutions just to re-split the profit world quotas: what do you think would they act if someone threats wiping off all their obscene privileges?

          • georgehants

            orsobubu, yes, but we must not start off pessimistic, but put all efforts into changing the system peacefully and happily.
            No communism or capitalism but a new system using the best of every positive idea of fairness and efficiency.
            Cold Fusion was an idea put forward 24 years ago and not taken up.
            How old an idea is in no way means it is not valid, it just shows how effectively the deniers and debunkers have done their job.

          • orsobubu

            GeorgeH, I’m not pessimistic, only a realist. Without realism, the risk is to discover to be in the same position as Italy in the Thirties, when Gramsci warned about war coming soon, and nobody was organized to defend the working class as in WWI. See my post below, where I’m talking about the danger of an idealistic, Enlightenment way of conceiving a world without classes, an ideology obviously publicized by the ruling class. And I loved your description of future, communist society; it is important never miss to explain it is entirely different from soviet/chinese/etc state capitalism, where capital, money, wage work, banks etc were standard, capitalistic production factors.

          • pg


          • Omega Z

            7- as in October.

            Nah- I give it 3 or 4
            June or July.

          • georgehants

            orsobubu, I think we agree.
            As always the trick is how to achieve progress against 1, the rich and powerful’s years of experience in how to turn ordinary people against themselves, and 2, the gullibility of many so called intelligent people to be herded by authority and the establishment into excepting their false propaganda.
            The fear of being, “not in line,” for many is hard to overcome as demonstrated with Cold Fusion.

          • The argument of communism is used every time someone suggests to share our resources. And it is a very efficient argument to kill the discussion.

            But is it not true that we always get further if we work together?

          • orsobubu

            For me, the argument is always the opportunity to start explaining scientific dialectical materialism. Perhaps in US is easier the word can kill the discussion than in Europe, because you had mccarthysm, cold war, popperism, etc. Due to the strenght of imperialism in USA, you never had real revolutionary parties. But you’re a revolutionary country, and people’s falling life-standard will change their mind in the years to come, when Asia too will enter economic crisis and tensions will rise due to protectionism. It is still possible revolution will start in USA.

          • robyn wyrick

            Frank, that’s really good to read. I was not expecting anything mid-April, but then again, I’m not particularly worried about the schedule, more about it getting out with solid data, and ideally, in a mainstream scientific journal.

            But even those aren’t nearly as important as a public announcement by Rossi’s purported partner. If some of the speculation on this site is correct, and it is a major company, like GE, that’s more important than the report to me.

            Here’s to hoping.

          • orsobubu

            LENR and automation technologies are not the most important things to focus on, today; a future world without capitalism was potentially achievable since the end of WW2, at least. The real issue is to organize a leninistic revolutionary party to seize the power when the next world crisis will accelerate (LENR will be key factor in worsening of unemployment and overproduction), then re-build a social organization based upon advanced techniques. Ironically, in absence of that, the bourgeoises will use the same LENR-powered military devices to crush people, instead (as happened with electricity, nuclear fission, etc).

          • Tangled Connections


      • Roger Bird

        That is actually a great idea. So, if my unit needs maintenance, I don’t have to go without electricity for a while. Of course, those who have a LENR would be making money off of people who didn’t have one.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      The macro-grid will wither away. Local micro-grids will flourish. Eventually, every sub-station will generate its own power.

      • GreenWin

        Iggy, I agree. But imagine if someone tried to sell you on buying your ice and food refrigerator space at the local Seven 11 (or equiv.) Why buy when you can make your own??

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          I’m not counting on the domestic units being available for a good while.

          • GreenWin

            I dunno Ig. Think how long it took people to really like the idea of making their own ice, at home? Instead of buying it. Market demand is even more powerful than order of new world.

          • It will take some time, but like the home fridge or home washing machine, it can happens in 10 years.

            at least LENr reactors may help to reduce the consumption of electric device producing heat (oven, stoves, boilers, washing machines, clothe iron, tea boilers,individual wall or moveable electric heater, fridge, A/C, cookers), so that the home generator may be a feasible solution (1-2kW may be enough for a house).

          • Bob Finley

            Once China gets it’s hands on just one Ecat, (and you can be sure they will) there will be a flood of them and everyone will have them. It won’t take long and there will be nothing anybody will be able to do to stop it.

          • Omega Z

            That’s what many think. The Dynamics are changing. Some Companies are bringing Production back to the U.S.

            $2 an hour becomes a break even point in China. They can manufacture some things Cheaper in the States now.

            The only thing that would change this is if the U.S. Government were to substantially increase Corporate Tax Rate. Thus Forcing them to stay in China & Keep the Profits from coming back to the States.

            If LENR becomes a reality, I suspect most Manufacturing will be done in the Country of Origin or Point of Sale.

            Only Exceptions will be Natural resources such as Ore Etc…

    • Luca Salvarani

      Dear Roger Bird

      I get you point… maybe in the future with a miniaturized e-cat and a lower price it would be convenient to remoeve the grid. It has some pros and cons… the grid is costly! It’s not for free as many people assume… For istance one of the biggest italian traded company is Terna and it has a market cap of 6.53 billion euro… If you adds its debt you get the enterprise value: the value of its assets: mainly the electric grid.. To justify such a value there are substantial cash flows that come from customers pockets… Electric grid is all but for free…

  • stuey81

    Frank, your contacts, are they giving you first hand information, or is it a case of a friend of a friend of mine? – curious to know if this contact of yours is talking from direct experience. Very exciting news if its from the horses mouth!

  • stuey81

    admin, your contacts, are they giving you first hand information, or is it a case of a friend of a friend of mine? – curious to know if this contact of yours is talking from direct experience. Very exciting news if its from the horses mouth!

    2nd attemp at posting this, not sure why i was modded out

    (changed the word F_rank to admin and viola)

    • GreenWin

      Stuey81, take a moment to grok what Admin published:

      “I have come across what I consider reliable information from individuals I trust who have knowledge about the 3rd party testing that confirm that the results are indeed positive…”

      Before your time Stuey81, there was a team of American reporters named Woodward and Bernstein (Watergate Affair – movie “All the President’s Men”) who broke the biggest story of crooked, criminal behavior at the highest levels (resulting in the only resignation of an American President in history.) The whole system, cops, guv’mnt agents, hard-as*ses, gumshoes, private dicks, and secret analysts tried to get them to reveal their sources. They never did. And we are better for it.

      BTW the Supreme Court of the United States upheld the Constitutional right of the press (New York Times v United States) to report on government malfeasance, without revealing sources, regardless of claim to “national security privilege.”

      • georgehants

        Wikileaks founder Julian Assange to run for Australian Senate seat.

        • Stuey81

          Hes got my vote

      • don’t forget that deepthroat was probably a minister/advisor/secretary of Nixon, disagreeing with his political choices…

        conspiracy with more than 5 people, is doomed to leak because one of the participant will leak for individual reasons.

        “only punny secrets need hiding”, “great secret are hidden by public incredulity”.

        all is clear if you know real science, real business, and are not frozen by prejudices.

        don’t believe the apparent silence.
        there is work underground and business is working.
        not easy not because LENRF is doubtful, but because changing of strategy is painful, and lobbies are afraid or changes.

        • From WP: “Thirty-one years after Nixon’s resignation and eleven years after Nixon’s death, Deep Throat was revealed to be former Federal Bureau of Investigation Associate Director Mark Felt.”

    • Bob

      From the header article which says in part:- “From what I have heard, publication may not be delivered in the middle of April as some are hoping,”
      I came to the same conclusion when on 3rd April in reply to a question on Rossi’s blog, he replied that the report would not be released before the first half of April.
      I didn’t bother to point it out because previously he had always said the report would be released probably in the first half of April.
      Since he always said “probably” we cant be too critiacl on this issue, unless it drags on and on indefinitely with no explanation as to why.
      I still take it that the report may be positive in that it confirms a small excess energy was observed. I will fall over backwards with shock if it confirms a COP anywhere near 6.
      He has recently said that the effect of the cascaded construction has the effect of increasing the COP. Since the original COP was supposed to be 6 then we should logically be able to expect a COP of well over 6 on the cascaded design and it was the cascaded design which was tested.
      I will be happy if the report confirms a COP of only 6 even if I have hurt my head from falling over backwards from the shock.

      • Peter Roe

        It’s possible that the COP of the main unit in the cascaded setup is still ‘only’ 6, but that there is an overall increase in calculated COP for shortish runs as a result of the reduction of start-up energy required. A crash helmet might still be a wise precaution.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          It is also reasonable to expect the COP to rise as research continues. I think a COP of 6 is a “guaranteed” but very conservative value. The new cascaded design would probably give the COP a nice boost, most likely a doubling so a COP of 12 minimum would be my guess for the report.

          The mood swing-o-meter in my case is very positive at the moment 🙂

  • stuey81

    anyone here live in geneva? someone has to check this out ( i dont hold any stock in this guy btw, but thought it would be interseting to share this here as this will apparently be publicly displayed between the 10th – 14th of this month)

    Update (as of April 5, 2013): Mr. Yildiz has been invited by the Turkish patent office to demonstrate his all-magnet motor at the Inventors Expo in Geneva, Switzerland, from April 10-14. They are paying his way. He plans to have more than one motor, and for at least one of them to run the entire duration. The idea is to run it more than long enough to rule out the possibility of hidden batteries inside. Yildiz has invited me to participate in this event, and thanks to so many of you who have chipped in, I will be attending and reporting from there.

    Compiled by Sterling D. Allan
    Pure Energy Systems News
    Intro last updated: March 29, 2013

    This page is to provide an updated chronicle of events pertaining to the test of Muammer Yildiz’ All-Magnet Motor at the Inventors Expo in Geneva, Switzerland from April 10-14, 2013. At least three universities will be involved in observing and documenting the demonstrations done there. After the Geneva expo, Mr. Yildiz plans to have the motor(s) tested in a university lab, in a more controlled environment. Yildiz is very determined to achieve vindication, after all these years of people questioning his technology and his motives.

    As these things are accomplished, the scientific world will have to revise their models of physics that predict that such a motor is impossible. Also, Yildiz will have the verification he needs to bring this to market. He may also do an open license (allowing people download plans, build a company, remit royalty once commercial) on the lower power version in the range of 1 kW.

    • stuey81

      i wonder how Yildiz stops this device?

    • buffalo

      yes stuey.the yildiz thingmagig is probably a violation of 2nd law thermo in action.huge scientific repercussions.

      • artefact

        It is amazing how good advertising in times of the internet knows what people are interested in.
        I get an advertisement on ECW on the left and right from kruizinga.de:


        Looks like Rossis 1MW container. The price is not mentioned in the link but from other containers I estimate it at 4000 Euro. In relation to the 1.5 mio e-cat price that is very low. I would love to know what the hardware cost of a 1MW warm e-cat are. The most expensive should be the control station.
        Normally the hardware costs of something are 20 – 50% of the product price I think. If a 1MW e-cat would cost 100.000 Euro I still think Rossi would make a good profit. Well, 1.5 mio is what we get as long as there is no competition on the market…

        • Jimr

          I suspect Rossi was paid a fixed price by the company that has taken over the engineering and development and he will get a fixed amount for each kw sold. The company will fix the price of the units and Rossi will have no input.

        • Omega Z


          I see a Public University add.

          Earn your B.S. in Environmental Science.

          At first Glance it registered to me as-

          Learn your B.S. in Environmental Science.

          As to Costs.
          The Cost of any new product costs more at the beginning even with competition.
          First adapters pay the brunt of the up front cost of new products because of huge start up costs. Late adapters benefit from this even without competition.

          All Products have so-called production costs incorporated into them. If I manufacture a product for you & incur $5 worth of ware & tare on the Equipment, it’s figured into the cost. This is separate from profit/wages. This is normal business & not consumer gouging. With a New product requiring all new equipment, these costs are higher, but gradually decease as this up front equipment cost is covered. Products then only incorporate maintaining cost after that. New Versions/Models may spike for the same reason.

          I’ve Posted Before that most of the cost savings of LENR will be absorbed my the Energy Corporations early on. The Reality is there will be a lot of costs involved in replacing & dismantling the Old Structure & this will be paid for by US, the Consumer. Either by the Corporations retaining much of the savings to pay for it or the Government taxing us to pay for it.

          Some will complain about this, But when analyzed it really is fair.
          If I pay a contractor to build me a house, I Don’t expect him to come back & tare it down for free when it’s reached it’s end of use. I pay for that to be done separately.

          • artefact

            That makes sence. I can only say: Thank you for your insights. Warm regards

            Though I think there will be lots of room for future price reductions.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            Supply, demand, and competition are the big drivers of price reductions. Saudi Arabia’s cost of production of oil is less than $5/barrel.

            Fair pertains to games.

            Supply, demand, and competition rule.

  • Luca Salvarani

    X Admin

    Could we expect positive surprises on the COP issue, or a formal confirmation of cop 6?
    I know you can’t disclose too much, just give me a clue please..
    Thank you…

    PS If you tell or see those “professors” or their entourage… Could you say them that they’re killing us! please?

    • admin

      Hi Luca, I can’t give you a clue on the COP, because I don’t know any details about the report.

      • Luca Salvarani

        Thank you anyway!

    • Already the Penon report gave a COP of 12, and it was calculated with conservative assumptions. An uninformed guess: COP 20 (mouse 3, cat 7), temperature 600 C, reduced from the earlier to enable coupling with a steam turbine and achieving long lifetime without expensive materials.

      A COP of 20 corresponds to 5% reduction in the electric conversion efficiency (for example if the turbine efficiency is 40%, the system has 35%). Once COP goes beyond 20, its exact value ceases to matter.

      • Paolo

        I guess that the “mouse” is not implemented as a (thermal) cascade system (Imho it has a completely different function), so I think that the overall COP is not the product of the single COPs of mouse and cat.

        • Maybe mouse produces X-rays? Rossi said at one point that the mouse’s COP is larger than unity. If so, I think one can multiply the COPs even if the trigger mechanism is X-ray instead of thermal. Or?

          • Esko Lyytinen

            This may be a little OT in this topic, but I see (also) in here the COP used extensively.

            Almost always when I see here the COP used I get these thoughts and now could not resist any more to comment this 🙂

            This COP is used as if it were some chrasteristic value for a given set of Ni wire or powder and the “secret chemicals”.
            IF however the phenomenon is of purely thermal effect that does not need electric current and/or some special potential (between the surrounding hydrogen and metal, for example), only some temperature high enough, then this coefficient mostly tells the thermal insulation (and/or energy outflow on purpose) relative to the generated LENR (or somehing) energy. With no energy otflow/leakup the temperature would rise even with a (very) small energy generation.

            And as a consequence of this, if I were conducting these tests to verify an eccess heat generating, I would do the next. I would have the test in a thermos flask type cell, with very good thermal insulation. This flask setup of course needs to sustain the high temperatures and have some precautions stops in the insulation.

            When getting (by means of energy from outside with electricity) the temperature rise to a value that is expected to have the energy generation active, I would stop the energy supply alltogether and get waiting to see, if the temperature would further continue to rise up (self sustained).

            If and when this would ascertain the expected energy generating, then this setup would need to be further modified to get a suitable, regulated energy outflow to test, if the energy generating will last long enough to be NOT explained with chemical energy.
            This type of setup might also be a suitable test enviroment to quickly go trough a big number of test Ni (powder or wire)and “catalyzers” in a search of the most promising.

            IF however this is NOT a purely thermal effect then this would fail. This type of experiment could also tell something about this.

          • Paolo

            I perfectly agree with you that the mouse probably has only a stimulating or triggering function, not achieved through a trivial thermal transfer mechanism (so, the COP of the mouse imho is not relevant, it could be different). But the details of the activation mechanism are impossible to know for us, due to the lack of experimental info on the reactions inside the reactor, otherwise we would have a theory too. However, I think that inside the reactor we have many physical phenomena involved, so the explanation and theory can’t be obtained without ad hoc detectors and measurements. Moreover, the Lenr reactions typically occurr only in hot spots, so there is room for large COP improvements with good strategies. The mouse is one of these, but surely not the only possible.

  • pg


    • Bob

      I’ve seen the movie and the answer is 42.
      What was the question?

      • Andre Blum

        It is actually a book. A trilogy even. In 5 parts.

        • Barry

          Andre, isn”t he off by 6?

  • Andrea Di Luccio

    Who don’t expect the unexpectable will not find the truth [Eraclito]

  • georgehants

    Wonderful day.
    Global warming has at last reached the U.K. and for the first time this year we have temperatures possibly going above 10 c.
    Dyson: Climatologists are no Einsteins
    Listen to this article. Powered by Odiogo.com
    The New Jersey Star Ledger printed a nice interview with Freeman Dyson:

    • Stuey81

      Your country needs a carbon tax stat, lol

    • Luca Salvarani

      Dear georgehants

      It’s the same here in Italy and they still call it “global warming”…

      • Redford

        To be fair, it’s pretty pointless to watch current state of the weather and conclude into anything. That being said, I keep seing opposite reports about GW – it seems at least some officials are acknowledging that the warming trend is on a halt for more than a decade now. Anyway, since I’ve seen Meteo France telling me my summer was just slightly below the normals while it was so cold regional paper made 3 articles on how low it was and that I could’n’t eat outside the whole july month and had to get heating (usually eating outside all month and seeking for shadowas at that time of the year), I realised that raw data are not to be trusted in the first place. It’s pretty incredible and I hardly believe myself typing it, but hard facts : data summary checked several time have been too often too way off for this being my simple perceptive bias. Speaking at least 4° off on average values.

        • georgehants

          Redford, agreed I do not think anybody is saying that Global Warming is not possible or that the unbiased Research should not be done, so that we know where we are.
          People are correctly responding to the incompetent, arrogant position of science, that is not showing clear, honest Evidence but mostly ridiculous “expert opinion”.
          Most of the public rightly believe that Science is a joke and as we all know from it’s reaction to Cold Fusion, The Placebo Effect, UFO’s etc. where it refuses to open it’s eyes and Research, they are perfectly correct to think so.
          “You can fool all the people some of the time, and some of the people all the time, but you cannot fool all the people all the time.” – Abraham Lincoln

          • Dickyaesta

            George lets have a good discussion about UFO´s when the Rossi Report is out.

            I am still waiting fora explanation why UFO’s can move that fast and not cause Sonic booms, for me it is a proof they do exist, because to my knowledge we donot have that technology.

            Reading reports on UFO’s, they never mention Sonic booms, it seems something real we could investigate.

          • georgehants

            Dickyaesta, of course we can, so many subjects that are so important, but science in general is not up to the job of unbiased investigation and Researching clear Evidence.
            Unfortunately that is why science is so mistrusted and has become such a joke.
            Very sad for us people who Love True Science.

          • Stephen

            I honestly do not understand what sort of publication AR is talking about…

            Normally you warp up a paper and submit it to a peer-review journal… which in turn send it out for review. Then there might be some revision loops with the anonymous reviewers and finally – if accepted – the paper is handed out to the production office which will fix the manuscript so that it is ready for publication.

            That’s how it works. In the best possible case it takes one-two months. I read that this people are “taking great care” in the preparation of the report, so I have to conclude the report has nto been sumbitted anywhere yet.

            So either we are not talking about any recognized scientific journal, or forget about April: it’s hard to image to have the thing published before May or even June, July, etc.

          • Chris I

            Actually, the great care being taken could be with the referees.

            My reserve remains on the fact that it is an experiment on a black box, so I’m not sure which journals would be taking an interest in it; it’s not an experiment which others could conduct as described in the paper, without needing to have the BB from Rossi himself. This remains unlike scientific research. It’s industrial R&D which doesn’t usually go by the academic peer review process.

    • GreenW

      George, I believe Freeman to be one of the only great, wise voices left at Princeton. He is a delightful man with a brilliant, not what-you-think mind.

      “The most extreme form of the intellectual degradation is the idea that the only important quantity to be predicted is the rate of [global] temperature increase (or, almost equivalently in the climate believers’ opinion, the climate sensitivity).”

      The AGW fantasy will unravel alongside LENR introduction.

      • georgehants

        GreenW, agreed, there was a magical time when Princeton was the centre of intellectual Science, Einstein, Godel, John Von, etc. etc. etc.

  • Lukedc

    I have no info about Rossi, but I have corroborated info in regards to the Defkalion LENR process. It is working as they say and they are seeing a true LENR phenomenon. As I understand it the control issue has been resolved for the most part. The problem with the longevity of the “spark plug” has been tackled by one of the contributing third parties.

    • Bob

      Gee whiz! Mr Rossi has put up a post which pretty much states what most people have been asking of him for the past two years.
      He says:-
      “The work of our Competitors will be taken seriously in consideration from us only when we will have evidence that they have put in the market a real product, or after some of them will have made a real indipendent third party test with a real product, able to produce kilowatthours, which means an amount of energy that beyond any possibility of error of measurement gives evidence of a real product.”

      It’s strange that he requests this in relation to all the competitors but has consistently refused to do this very thing himself. In fact he has always said that it was unnecessary because the customers would be the final judges.
      Oh well. At least it shows he recognises the principle, even if it doesn’t apply to himself.

      • hmm, he just did a independet test on his device.
        That’s what this blog-article is about.

        • Ken

          Yah Barty it’s becoming more common today to see ignorance than intelligence. it’s the weakening of the genes and corruption of our education systems and family values.

          Bob apparently suffers from one of these. This can be the only explanation of why someone would take that much time to talk about how Rossi expects something from someone that he himself won’t do. Rossi has had 2 independent tests done Bob. Just because you weren’t privileged enough to read them doesn’t mean it hadn’t happened.


    • artefact

      Hi Lukedc, is your info re Defkalion based on something that is published or on something someone told you personaly?

      • Lukedc

        It’s from a contact I have in Vancouver. I studied at Uni with him in the mid 90’s here in Australia.
        He is in the engineering field and put out a few feelers.
        I definitely trust him as a source otherwise I would not have posted it here.
        My confidence is high that we are going to see something really soon. I would take what Symeon said about a product based on their tech being announced before the end of the calendar year.

        • Bob

          There is a problem in taking this sort of information as the truth, and that problem is, it usually originates from a few people inside the organisation who pass on highly biased and often totally incorrect snippets, often in the form of what might be rather than what actually is. It is taken as the gospel truth because they heard it from someone actually involved in the business.
          This dropping of snippets is often done in the full knowledge that it will get out into the public domain and the image of the company will be greatly enhanced. It has the added bonus that when it all turns out to be horse feathers then the company management cannot be held responsible because they officially said nothing.
          This happened early last year when a few notable people had reliable inside information regarding the imminent release of great results on Defkalion devices.
          So far it has all turned out to be A grade bovine excrement and we saw nothing.
          Just because someone reliable heard something from someone in the company it does not make it reliable information. It just makes it the same old bs shovelled out the back door in secret, instead of it being shovelled out the front door in public.
          Anyone who trades on the share market would be well aware that a company share price often responds more sharply to the rumour of something good about to be released rather than the final official announcement to the market.

          • Lukedc

            Fair call.
            I am only relaying what I was told. That’s it. They aren’t a public company so I don’t know how it’s going to affect their share price?
            If you choose not to believe it then so be it. I thought that I would just forward info on that I got from a good mate that can be trusted.

          • Dickyaesta

            +1 Good for you!

  • John L

    No doubt about Mr.Rossi, expecting to see major contract between him/his partner and Vattenfall

    • Blanco69

      What have you read/heard re Vattenfall John? I know that Anders Aaberg was attending Rossi’s Geneva presentation but I couldn’t tell if he was there out of interest.

    • Patrik

      What will the benefit be for Vattenfall?

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    When and if LENR suddenly becomes affordable and available to the masses, I predict it will cause a sharp recession. It could cause millions in old energy to become unemployed and could cause several years of deflation (because of the reduced energy costs of products). When deflation hits, it causes consumers to postpone discretionary purchases, in hope of buying cheaper later.

    Once the transition is complete, economies will boom because of increased surplus income. When the boom hits, real estate will skyrocket because of its fixed supply.

    The government may try to temporarily limit the access of LENR to consumers in order to effect a more orderly transition. As you know, government usually screws up everything it touches. IMO, we would be better off allowing the free market to do its job. Once government tries to control access to LENR, then special interests will try to prolong the delay.

    • SolarSurfer

      I doubt that. Pick any industry you like (apart from drilling oil) and you’ll see that it would benefit immeasurably from dramatically cheaper energy.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        What do you mean “benefit”, it will reduce their costs, reduce the cost of their product or service, that is the definition of Deflation.

        • Ransompw

          Current deflation is due to a decrease in the velocity of money and unemployment. Cost deflation due to greater productivity (ie more produced with less) is good deflation and will stimulate employment and the velocity of money.

          In fact as soon as it is clear that the future will not be doom and gloom but bright, money velocity will explode and we are likely to see inflation even with 10-20% product cost deflation.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            Ransompw wrote: “In fact as soon as it is clear that the future will not be doom and gloom but bright, money velocity will explode and we are likely to see inflation even with 10-20% product cost deflation.”

            Simultaneous inflation and deflation? Are you, by any chance, a Global Smarmist?

            Reminds me of FDR saying he wanted a “one-armed economist”, because his economists always qualified their predictions with “on the other hand”.

          • right, that is it.
            At last someone understand economics.
            Hyperinflation in germany was caused by money velocity… people were buying so quickly that the same bill was used many times a day.

            inflation is multiple sourced.
            and people don’t understand that some price reduction is not real deflation…
            take computers, price go down, but people don’t wait for a cheaper model. they enjoy one today.

            deflation of asset is however painful.

            currently we have asset inflation, external prices inflation, internal price deflation, wages deflation, consumption stall, fear of invest, fear or employ, and fear of consume.
            and unemployment, economic downturn, lack of investment , amplify all that.

            LENR may change the external cost of energy, food, goods, and stop the depression in the minds, push investments, give hope thus consumption…

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Ransompw…..you said “Cost deflation due to greater productivity (ie more produced with less) is good deflation and will stimulate employment…” tell that to the millions unemployed and millions more getting pay cuts because of productivity gains, not being passed on to the worker, and therefore very reluctant to increase his “velocity” spending. And, I think you are saying LENR is going to make everyone feel better, therefore the velocity of money is going to increase. Why is the average US worker going to feel better when his job is threatened because his employer can make more product for less with LENR?

        • SolarSurfer

          No, it isn’t. Take a simple example we can all relate to, say, cars. We all own cars and using them costs money. If using them costs less, we’ll buy more cars because more people can afford them. We’ll also use them more because running them is less expensive. We’ll buy bigger and faster or safer and more luxurious (in short: heavier) cars etc. More money will be free for more added economic value rather than simply consuming large parts of it. That mechanism works with everything you can possibly think of, from computers to refrigerators. Anything lowering the cost or consumption of material (except gold – but that’s for other reasons) and energy leads to economic growth.

        • h_corey

          Just like Solar says, when costs for a firm go down.. do they reduce prices or increase profit? Both? By how much?

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            SolarSurfer, h_corey,AlainCo Why has productivity increased almost 100% since 1985 and the “mean” wage of US worker has stayed the same?

          • I don’t know for US. it seems more work is offshored to Asia, wher people get much richer (less poor) than before.

            Some say that it is because rich get richer, but if rich consume they pay poor people as much as they earn… If they invest in their zone, they pay local companies too…
            they probably pay abroad, invest abroad. Oil might participate to the money leak.

            In france, there is a real increase of salary (stopped 2012 only), yet slow, at the expense of debt and investments in productivity gain.

            Most of oure real wage gain is eaten by :
            – increase of standard, that make the good better more expensive, without any choice (very true for housing, food)
            – increase of needed expense,
            – increase of forced expense about health and similar care

            Today in france, nearly half of the earning is forced expense for retirement, health, kids, unemployment. That have exploded recently. It does not change the reality, assuming we don’t let people die when old.

            people often forget that 20 years ago many services were non existent, or judged as luxury (health, retirement, internet, high standard housing or regulated food).

            so for me the productivity gains are eaten by :
            – investment or buying in Asia, who don’t buy here
            – increase of standard, regulation, and forced expense, that make people not aware of their wealth increase, and don’t allow the poorest to buy cheaper…

        • What does not seem to be understood is that the knowledge that LENR is for real will preceed its ready availability by some years. Therefore, the benefits of low energy will lag the systemic challenges faced by the obsolescence of the old.

          Will it make sense to build new refineries, pipelines, dams, wind farms? No. However the new energy will not be here yet.

          Will I want to buy a new gas powered car? No. But the LENR cars will not be here yet.

          Iggy is exactly right, the initial response of LENR will be a challenge for the economy.

          • h_corey

            Sure, but the first LENR powered cars will be luxury vehicles. Priced to extract the most margin at that time. If LENR has enough competition, we would then see the adoption rate increase and the “shock” to the economy the greatest.

          • xy


        • Grek

          One should be very careful when expressing views about economics, when one clearly has very limited knowlege about the vocabulary one should use, and the mechanisms that are in play.

    • Andrew Macleod

      Th transition could never happen that quick. Unfortunatly we will have a better energy source before we fully transition from our current ways to .

    • Linda

      Sorry, but this is completely off the beam.

      First, we are in a Long Depression caused by unfettered Capitalism, exacerbated by massive deregulation of the banking sector.

      Second, if anything, LENR will cause a surge of new investment.

      Third, the crisis we are in, having been caused by Capitalism, cannot be solved with yet more Capitalism. Free markets famously kick millions starving into the gutter during their hellish readjustments. Libertarians seem to long for this, and feel nothing for those who suffer, and that’s just evil.

      What is called for now is not more free-market sadism, but a humanist, socialising tendency that recognises the inherent worth and dignity of all persons, and the need for compassion.

      LENR is a force for good that above all else must stay free.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Linda wrote: “What is called for now is not more free-market sadism, but a humanist, socialising tendency that recognises the inherent worth and dignity of all persons, and the need for compassion.”

        You mean like in Cuba and North Korea, where all persons are like faceless zombies? Libertarians are the true champions of the individual.

        I say the recession was triggered by government meddling. Now Obama wants to promote more subprime loans. That’s what caused this mess. I wish all socialists would move to N Korea and eat tree bark (high fiber diet).

        • Faceless zombies Cubans would surely disagree. North Koreans might luckily not know what a zombie is.

        • I cant pay for my so I will buy another one!
          Problem solved!

      • sempervivum


        As much as I would like to see LENR succeed for mankind’s salvation from global warming, there is not a shadow of a doubt that the short term implications for my country and state Brisbane Australia, would be devastating . The coal seam gas industry alone is estimated to be worth 32 billion for our state, then you have coal, Australia is the worlds largest exporter. We also have huge reserves of uranium .. New ports are already under construction to ship these resources . That is why you never hear one single sentence in our media regarding anything to do with this new energy breakthrough.

        • Linda


          I completely sympathise. I know a lot of Australians. I would not want them to lose their jobs. But the world needs LENR.

          What to do? Well, any sane, rational person looking at this would say, “Let’s help these miners and these towns. Let’s redeploy these workers and create new manufacturing and research companies based on LENR where mines used to be. Let’s get some investment in there fast, before we lose those workers.

          UNFORTUNATELY, we live in a Capitalist system where rich people make all the investment decisions. Rich people don’t care about your towns or even your state. They don’t care about those miners, or what happens after they pull their money out, it’s “not their problem”. Let the “Free Market” sort it out, as if the free market was a person who gave a damn. It isn’t.

          The free market exists to chase profits, only. Money will get invested in LENR, but Qld will be left like a smoking hole in the ground, literally.

          We need real human beings to make investment decisions for and on behalf of real human beings, in order to create and retain viable societies. We need this, in order to ensure the survival of the whole human race, not just a handful of rich, short, fat, ugly white men and women with really bad hair.

          We should never be afraid of change. But we should be very afraid of greed. Greed kills. And after it kills, it salts the earth.

          The reason why I invest so much time in this forum is to make sure that LENR is used for HUMANITY, and not locked away for the benefit of a few greedy individuals. Its up to us.

          • xy

            you are all fooled by illusionary terms as “capitalism” and “social”. these words do not exist and almost never these words stand for what’s really happening. what counts is terms as responsibility, scientific decision making, freedom to decide, and solidarity, communities, family. we actually need more capitalism which equals that many people with resources responsibly, by their best (educated, scientific) assesment decide where to invest those resources. problem here is that the state butts in, people are irresponsible, not educated, corrupted, etc. but don’t mistake that with this bad capitalism. it’s bad people. that goes with socialism too.

          • Linda, hope you keep making your point because it is important. My website has related ideas about post-scarcity economics and five interwoven types of economic transactions. As I say there (and sent to Rossi two years ago):
            Our society is facing a huge economic turmoil, driven in part by the fact that most paid human labor has less-and-less relative value in the exchange economy due to several trends including: 
            * the spread of robotics, AI, and other automation, 
            * increasingly better design and better materials, 
            * the accumulation of physical infrastructure, 
            * relatively cheaper energy (which can often substitute for human labor), and/or 
            * the emergence of voluntary social networks.
            So, we can expect the balance between those five interwoven economies to change as our technology and society changes, perhaps with: 
            * A subsistence economy through 3D printing, gardening robots, local PV solar panels, and other local clean energy technologies (like cold fusion or something else); 
            * A gift economy through the internet, like sharing digital files to use with our 3D printers or gardening robots, or coordinating the movement of free goods like through Freecycle; 
            * A planned economy on a variety of scales, including through taxes, subsidies and regulation affecting market dynamics; 
            * An exchange economy marketplace softened by a “basic income”; and 
            * Minimizing the impulse to theft (or conquest) and related violence through the previous four changes.
            The particular balance a society adopts is going to reflect the unique blend of history, culture, infrastructure, environment, relationships, mythologies, religions, and politics of that society. A central irony of our times is that our major social institutions revolve around the idea of rationing “scarce” resources, but the technology of the 21s century has the potential to make most resources very abundant. So, our policies relating to areas as diverse as education, welfare, healthcare, economics, infrastructure, research, urbanization, transportation, communications, copyright, patents, and agriculture are built on increasingly obsolete conceptual foundations. The worst part of the irony is when we use such post-scarcity technologies as weapons to fight over scarcity. To expand on what someone else said, that is like a person suffering from dehydration crossing a river to get water from a small well on the other side (because that’s what they always did), and worse, fighting all the way there hitting people with a big club made of ice and shooting them with a supersoaker water pistol. Our culture has not adjusted to the possibilities yet. Rossi’s emphasis on patents and secrecy is just one more example.

          • On the opposite robotization, 3D printing, increase the relative value of work, since it is multiplied by the tools.
            it happens with 60s growth, so no revolution .

            what cause labor decrease of value is decrease of competence, lack of growth of productivity, compared to the growth of forced needs.

            the standard of goods quality, of what we estimate as needed, as minimal, grow faster than our hability to work to respect it.

            moreover in that stagnation, the richest succeed in keeping their wealth while the weakest are used as adjustment.

            as explained in “the next convergence” low groth economies are very un fair because the economic rent are respected and effort produce nothing.
            on the opposite in growing economy, a firts phase allow huge inequalities to grow, but poor people have as much chances as rich, even more in fact, and the cards are redistibuted. The riche get richer and the poor get even more richer, and some by work or by luck, get mucmuchmuch richer…
            then like in westernworld in the 60s, the poorest became middleclass and ask their shares, which the rich give because they grow anyway richer (bur less than the poorest)…

            of course this vision, however validated by history, is ignored by malthusians inspired ideologies…

            I see in france that all politicians, right or left, protect the economic rent of the bourgeoisie, of the middle-class, of the poor class, yet block any desire by members of those class to take risk, innovate, get out of their position…

            poor workers are blocke to be entrepreneur, entrepreneurs are blocked to innovate, bourgeoisie is blocked to invest in innovations…

            the opposite of emerging countries…

            it is no more the marxist class war, but economic rent beneficient (securities, big companies salarymen, incumbent industry, real-estate investors, old-economy, orld-farming, old-technology) against risk takers of any kind (entrepreneur, intermitent hard workers, innovators, high-tech).

            we need a karl marx of that new war…
            not the old one who is obsolete.

        • georgehants

          sempervivum, as productivity of food and all basic necessities will not be affected at all, why are you against all those people being out of work and free to enjoy their lives or help others.

    • artefact

      Every time I think about the impacts I see myself running into a blind end. The impact will be very complex and due to no examples in resent history hard to predict. I’m just sure that in the end most people in the world will benefit of it.
      If one takes the internet as an expample it was a relatively (a developing) slow migration and the digital economy developed during the growth of the net. LENR will be there from one moment to the other with a huge impact potential right from the beginning (plus it can devolop over time (mini reactors etc.)

    • Ken

      You assume the economy is already booming. No the economy in the US is at the least at an all time low. We producing less jobs per population growth in america than ever in our history. So i say it couldn’t have come around at a better time.


  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Please do not underestimate the powerful money interests who will be disrupted because of this news, they have every incentive to delay LENR until they can get out in front of it. We might be seeing some movement in that direction already. Then we have our government, trying desperately to stay out of deflation, and what will LENR do, it will deflate all prices by 10-20%: Not good. How will our government react? I fully expect both these interests to attack LENR based on the safety issue to delay its introduction.

    • h_corey

      Naw, It will increase profits of those firms that can utilize LENR 10-20%

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        For the first six months until competition catches up.

  • Barry

    Coming from you Frank, that’s good to hear.

  • buffalo

    yeah orsibubu.you,l get a swift national socialist response to that,financed by gues who..

  • georgehants

    From Cold Fusion Now
    1973 Nobel laureate Dr. Brian Josephson responded to the April 3 New York Times letter Invitation to a Dialogue: Action on the Climate by Robert W. Fri asking for social scientists to become more engaged in promoting low-cost energy alternatives.
    Fri is Chairman of the American Academy of Arts and Sciences’ Alternative Energy Future project and a visiting scholar at Resources for the Future.
    Josephson’s letter answered with the solution offered by low-energy nuclear reactions (LENR) and it did not appear with the other responses published in the Sunday Dialogue, so we post it here:

    • Roger Bird

      The New York Slimes is gutless. They follow the crowd assiduously. Do not expect any leadership or independent thinking from them.

  • Roger Bird

    OK, you guys, this topic is getting old, so why don’t ya’all get on over to http://lenrconnect.com/ and party there.

    • georgehants

      Naughty, naughty. 🙂

    • Joe Shea

      What we need to look at is the quickening pace of events. They are what tell me that Rossi has the real thing and that his competitors are truly nervous about getting a few points on the board before Rossi scores really, really big.