What's the Most Compelling Evidence for the E-Cat?

Here’s a thread that I hope will help newer visitors to the site. I think there are a lot of E-Cat veterans here who have been following the story from the early days, but I can see from my visitor logs that there are quite a lot of newer visitors coming here these days, and I am a bit concerned that by reading the day-to-day posts that there is a lot of information that is discussed here that may be unfamiliar to newcomers.

It is a practice of mainstream journalism to make sure that news stories can be understood easily by the average reader who may not have much of a background in the topic being discussed, and I don’t want people to come to the site, read a post that is full of terms that are unfamiliar and confusing, and so leave the site with little more understanding than they came with.

I have a couple of pages that are on the menu bar above that are intended for new readers: What is the E-Cat? and Why I Believe in the E-Cat, but I think there may be more information I could add to those posts to make them more comprehensive.

So, I’m putting out this request to the ECW community to help newer readers here to get up to speed on our topic by commenting below and sharing what you think are compelling evidences that you have seen so far you think that this story is worth following. Note that I’m not asking people for proof — we are all at different stages of being convinced — but evidence that you have seen over the years that make you take the story seriously. Thanks very much!

  • Tim

    I think we’re still at a point where most who come to this site are going to be willing to dig for some information. You’ve done a great job consolidating what is out there from various sources. A web search of NASA+LENR will lead people to some fairly compelling information on what some of the worlds top scientists are thinking on the topic.

    Keep up the good work.

    • lenrdawn

      I’d be very careful about NASA. Yes, there are words. But don’t forget that what counts are results and NASA hasn’t got any of those and don’t put their money where their mouth is. They funded Zawodny with (I think) something like $200k to do some research on W&L (pushed by Krivit, rejected by Rossi, btw) but so far nothing in terms of observations has been published. They can speculate about LENR space drives all they want but unless they’re willing to do some serious research, they’re just along for the ride and want to sound a little exotic. As far as compelling evidence for the e-cat is concerned, they’re worth exactly jack…

      • Warthog

        The full technical report of their first successful experiment (gas phase deuterium with palladium using a commercial palladium membrane device) is available online, as are slides of their later successful repeat of their first experiment. So “…they’re worth exactly jack…” is not an accurate representation of the situation.

        The ironic thing about the first experiment is that they were looking for radiation signatures, got none and thought their experiment had been a failure and “just another failure to replicate” P & F. It was only later after reading (I think it was Arata’s work), that they reexamined the original data, and identified that they had indeed recorded excess heat.

      • GreenWin

        NASA’s Langley Research Center Dr. Joseph Zawodny is speaking at the ICCF-18 Conference in August on the Condensed Matter Nuclear Science – The Way Forward Panel; chaired by Dr. Mahadeva Srinivasan.

        That is the 18th International Conference on Cold Fusion.

  • Kim

    Uncle Rossi burned his finger during research.


  • Redford

    – Hot Cat September 2010 WIP report (2 identified third party validating a COP of 11)
    – Pr Levi’s testimony of spending 17h with eCat and reaching COP of 200
    – 2011 (I think) presentations to scientists leading to a collection of measurements made by several. Including some fraud specialist.

    Also, context: there are competitors, strong confirmation of LENR (Toyota, Mitshubishi, Japanese university), and people really working on licensing and selling future products.

    Now of course a published papers in a scientific review is expected soon and should be a huge boost to the pile.

  • Redford

    – Hot Cat September 2010 WIP report (2 identified third party validating a COP of 11)
    – Pr Levi’s testimony of spending 17h with eCat and reaching COP of 200
    – 2011 (I think) presentations to scientists leading to a collection of measurements made by several. Including some fraud specialist.

    Also, context: there are competitors, strong confirmation of LENR (Toyota, Mitshubishi, Japanese university), and people really working on licensing and selling future products.

    Now of course a published papers in a scientific review is expected soon and should be a huge boost to the pile.

  • Curbina

    Tough question Admin. Tough question. Evidence is something we all can agree upon and verify without doubts. Most naysayers will easily point at the feeble situation of the E-cat to this respect. Hence, and based in our prior experience with other notorious ground breaking, paradigm shifting technology claims, I would say that we have not a shred of evidence in favor of the E-cat. In the case of the whole field of LENR, or how I am starting to prefer calling it, Anomalous Heat Effect (for strictly commercial reasons), the evidence is already out in the field, and the best repository I can think so far is lenr-canr.org, to which i thin many here would agree. Once and if the now highly expected third party report comes available, I think we will be able to lift the remaining doubt about the E-cat.

    That said, I think many of us following this since Jan 2011 would agree that even with the lack of evidence, the E-cat saga is really interesting and there are a lot of hints that this might eventually turn out to be what we are waiting for: the solution to our current energy problems, and the dawn of a new era for mankind, and it being reality today and not 30 years in the future.

    Best Regards!!

    • Alp

      “I would say that we have not a shred of evidence in favor of the E-cat.”
      If I am not mistaken, Jed Rothwell, author of lenr-canr.org, offered to assemble his own experts to test Rossi’s ecat without revealing any secrets but in an iron-clad way. According to Rothwell, Rossi would not agree on any reasonable test protocol. I don’t know if he is still trying. Admin, perhaps you could email Jed and ask?

      • I don’t think Jed is still trying, he seems to content to wait and see with Rossi. He often states that he thinks that Rossi is being truthful in what he says about his technology.

  • John Littlemist

    Focardi et al. work and publications since early 90’s.

    I wonder whether this experiment is easy to reproduce:


    Could that be the basic cold fusion lab exam in the schools in the future?

  • zvibenyosef

    I remember the original press conference when Pons and Fleischmann announced their findings of anomalous heat production. They were obviously frustrated and angry at the deceitful and misleading “findings” of the MIT researchers, who fixed their results to cover up evidence of the anomalous heat effect. I was extremely skeptical and mistrusting of the MIT researchers, knowing the Pons and Fleischmann had nothing to gain and everything to lose by trying to trick the science community. Furthermore they were both highly qualified scientists, experts in their field of electrochemistry. It is scandalous these two good men had their names besmirched, and their careers ruined by the deceitful MIT researchers, probably at the request of special interests. There is no doubt that the anomalous heat effect is real.
    Whether Rossi has perfected a practical device to take advantage of the effect is yet to be determined, time will tell. There is no doubt that if it is not Rossi, then somebody else will be able to harness this phenomenon for the good of mankind. Several groups in many different countries are currently working on the problem. It is just a question of time.

    • Roger Bird

      zvibenyosef, the assertion that MIT researchers deliberately took action to make sure that their PFE experiments failed is unprovable and is therefore reprehensible. There have been many researchers other than the MIT people since then who have had trouble replicating. If it is so easy, why is MFMP have such a difficult time, even with Celani’s help? If it is so easy, why don’t you do it? It is obvious that the MIT people disbelieved going in thanks to their experience with the Coulomb Barrier, and it is obvious that they didn’t shed any tears when it failed, thanks to their hot-fusion paychecks. But to say that they deliberately fiddled with their experiments is scummy. Am I to always think of the word “scummy” when I see the word “zvibenyosef”? I ask you.

      • GreenWin

        Roger, you really need to do more homework before posting. There is plenty of documentation on the MIT war against CF. Jus sayin’

        • buffalo

          [email protected],how would you know what went down at mit.

        • Roger Bird

          You could reduce my work load by pointing me in the right direction.

          • elkoko

            Eugene Mallove

  • AB

    During the Oct 6. 2011 test the e-cat remained in self-sustaining mode for hours, while maintaining a stable (actually slightly increasing) temperature with cool water flowing in and warm water flowing out. At the end, witnesses could hear boiling water inside and the surface was too hot to touch. Then the reactor was opened.

    • RenzoB


  • Lu

    Please keep in mind that it is a huge leap from having a demonstrable LENR/Cold Fusion process to a commercial product producing energy at commercial levels.

    While many here point to previous and current scientific successes which establish LENR as a scientific fact (and attempt to extrapolate from this that the E-Cat works), this has been the case since 1989 but since then no one has managed to commercialize LENR as Rossi is attempting to do. Rossi himself has proclaimed that the validation can only be done by customers but he’s been saying this now for over two years and we are still waiting for customer validation. Listen to the PESN interview with Roger Green in the previous post and the situation becomes even more bleak, IMO.

    That said all of us here believe that Rossi has something beyond a basic LENR effect. For me Rossi’s past demonstrations, the in-house performance report from last year, and to some level the insight we’ve gleaned into Rossi’s efforts (photos, statements/interviews, associations, rumors, etc.) all provide some level of confidence that Rossi’s E-Cat is a commercial ready (or near commercial ready) LENR device.

    Unfortunately like all things there is also compelling evidence to the contrary and IMO this evidence is even more compelling that Rossi does not have what he is claiming (although I believe he has something). This is not unusual in the world of business. If not for the upcoming 3rd party report by qualified and independent persons and verification of a commercial installation by a well known public company, I would have written Rossi off a long time ago.

    Happy waiting!

    • Roger Bird

      Oh, a big, long lecture. Lu, I want you to know that I didn’t really finish your whole post. Frank the admin asked us what was our turning point or most compelling evidence. He did not ask us why we should all give up.

      • Lu

        Nice one there Roger. Coming from someone who can’t have thought without telling us all about it, it really means a lot 🙂

        Happy Waiting!

  • RenzoB

    there are a lot of evidences that overall make a very strong case that Rossi has what he claims. For me the two main ones are:

    1) The 6 october test of 2011


    2) The support of prof Focardi, Stremmenos and Levi who have tested the Ecat and continue to support Rossi

    • AB

      A variation of point 2 is that nobody with technical training who attended the demos ever spoke out against Rossi (“snake” Krivit spoke against him but coincidentally he was the only one to never see a real demo, and his technical competence is dubious).

      If it is “an obvious fake” as some skeptics claim, why is nobody who has actually attended a demo come to the same conclusion?

  • Thinks4Self

    Searching SPAWAR and LENR or SPAWAR and Cold Fusion on Google will bring up all sorts of links to support the case for LENR being observed under closely controlled conditions. The US government specifically the US Navy in my opinion has done enough research to prove that LENR is in fact real. They have even received a patent concerning technology for producing LENR reactions.

    The Navy is in desperate need of a new power source for their lasers and rail-guns set to be deployed over the next decade. Congress has not ok’d production of any new nuclear powered vessels so one must assume that they have found another way to produce the multiple megawatts they need for these new weapons. The only likely source for this power is LENR as the military is under mandate to reduce their reliance on fossil fuels.

    Rossi’s military customer is likely DARPA or the Navy and if true explains the production of the E-Cats being moved to Florida from Italy.

  • K

    The October 6 test

  • Betuswonkel

    I am inclined to believe Rossi not because of the evidence he has provided but due to the evidence presented by others. The claims of Rossi have a basis of sold evidence which is why I think it is different from other ‘free energy’ claims/scammers. On the other hand, a good scammer uses a scientific basis in order to persuaded as much people as he can, so who knows.
    Anyway, the following people have helped convinced me that LENR is real.


    Don’t know about Rossi though, time will tell. Yet, it does not really matter for me since many more people are working on it. Have good hopes someone will be able to figure it out in the not so distant future.

  • pg

    the fact that Pekka believes it may be for real

    • Andre Blum


    • Baka

      Yeah, but you missed the point that this article is about the newer visitors who should also understand what you are talking about. So who is this Pekka?

      • pg

        Billionaire, genius, playboy, philantropist…

        • GreenWin

          AND family man, Pepper would tell you.

  • GreenWin

    The underlying technology of the Rossi/Focardi effect is atomic hydrogen reacting inside a metal lattice. On June 3rd, 2013 the Italian ENEA, University of Missouri, Naval Research Lab, and Stanford Research Inst. International Research Project will review progress in this field.

    “There have been many new observations of nuclear phenomena in condensed matter systems over the last decade, and these phenomena fall into at least two distinct types. One type uses novel condensed matter physics to produce conditions where conventional hydrogen isotope fusion is observed. The second distinct type of new phenomena produces excess heat without particle radiation.”
    Dr. Robert Duncan, Vice-Chancellor Research, University Missouri


    • georgehants

      GreenWin, no mention of Cold Fusion or LENR so it must be a new Effect they have discovered.
      I am sure they would not try to hide who put forward the original research. Ha.

      • GreenWin

        George, the research at U Missouri is financed through the SKINR Inst. This was a grant from Sydney Kimmel to follow up on the findings of Energetics Technologies, and other cold fusion researchers, (all based on P&F) some featured in the CBS 60 Minutes segment: “More than Junk Science – Cold Fusion is Hot Again”


  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Dr. Edmond Storms, his books, interviews and articles.

    • John Ehlers

      I agree.

  • Blanco69

    To me, there are only 2 possibilities. Either Rossi is lying and attempting a fraud or he is telling the truth and has spent the last few years trying bring this technology to the market. If you start with a fraud premise and then go back to 2011 and run through the unfolding events through the interactions with all of the other players. Focardi,Piantelli,Stremmenos,Good Defkalion,Bad Defkalion,the Swedes Kullander and Essen, guys like Melich, Nagel and Zawodny. When you sit back and think of how this amazing story has unfolded so far you start to believe that, on balance of probabilities, the fraud theory is the least likely scenario. It’s now not possible for Rossi to say,’Stop! Hold the phone. I think I’ve made a mistake somewhere’ and then run off with a pile of cash. I believe that Rossi will have to do whatever it takes to make this happen – with every breath and every penny.

  • buffalo

    for me,as a scientist,i would say that although i have never seriously put effort to verify any lenr phenomena i would say that there really is nothing to rule it out as it falls in line with the generalised tendency of the universe towards greater entropy. teasing through atomic coulombic barriers of matter to allow for a more stable energetic state is favorable from a 2nd law of thermodynamics perspective.

  • Brent Mosley

    The WTC is enough proof for me.

    • Roger Bird

      What? Did you just say the World Trade Center?

      • Betuswonkel

        nope don’t think that’s it. It was taken down by a super weapon of a secret agency. The super weapon is supposed to be powered by a LENR reaction.

    • Betuswonkel

      I know that theory.I saw a some what delusional women Dr. juli or something present it once. It does not make any sense what so ever.

  • Roger Bird

    LENR: These lectures made me a believer: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4RVBkj3plbg&list=PL5A95D6496D34C45D

    Rossi: My left brain keeps overruling my right brain and even though I get excited sometimes, I am still waiting. There is a lot of very compelling “evidence”, but why isn’t there any compelling evidence after all of this time? There is a lot of excitement and hope, and I share this excitement and hope. But I am still waiting for absolute proof. The October 6th 2011 demo was very impressive. The reports from the physicist from Italy and Sweden were very impressive. But my left brain rules, and I demand absolute proof before I believe absolutely.

  • About whether e-cat evidence it seems many people mix that question with the one of LENR.

    LENR is a scientific fact, proved since long.

    I’ve made an article about the evidences of lenr and the stupidities of critics…
    ther have been good explanation recently on vortex because of Cude patho-skepticsm…

    best evidence of LENR are tritium
    eg http://www.lenr-forum.com/showthread.php?1023-Tritium-is-the-best-proof-of-LENR
    or heat/he4 correlation like what some US team found (miley I think, ask lomax about DoE 2004 http://www.lenr-forum.com/showthread.php?1157-Abd-ul-rahman-Lomax-Did-the-2004-US-DoE-review-reject-cold-fusion )..
    some other are very good.
    Iwamura&toyota are not the best but are good…
    ENEA latest work are good too and detail the crystallographic important parameters…

    about Rossi situation is much weaker.
    all demo are quite loose. many cannot be 100% trusted by a skeptic, yet there is some evidence in the earlier demo that it was really heating…

    for me the only evidences are indirect, despite the crazy communication of Rossi, and his weird partners.
    The only evidence is named Aldo Proia.

    anyway since LENr is real, it is much more probable he have a reactor, than he build a so incoherent and expensive scam company…

    Accepting that LENR is real, we have to admit that business may more easily be genuine than scam, especially is the scam theory need extraordinary explanation…

    • MaxS

      with all due respect, why is Aldo Prioa an evidence? He may appear serious, however he is only an Italian salesman, without technical background. And so far he has not sold any e-cats as it seems. At best he is promoting e-cats for future deliveries, based on Rossi´s word. That is not evidence at all. Correct me if I am wrong please.

      • Roger Bird

        By itself, it is very weak social evidence. Not negative evidence, not zero evidence, but really weak social evidence. If that were the only evidence I had and my neighbor was inviting me over to see their great new energy source, and Aldo Prioa the salesman said it was real, they would have to promise me some brownies too just to get me to walk across the street. (:->)

  • Hal

    For me the situation has gotten so confusing I don’t know what I believe anymore.

    Pordenone report Rossi corrected several times, I concluded a practical COP of about 17:)
    Then recently he announced his new mouse-cat which appears to only have a COP of about 3.07
    Then he publishes the Pordonene report again with more corrections giving the COP as 11.7
    I do not believe that Rossi is as mathematically incompetent as this all makes out,so what is he really up to?
    Anyway I am not apparently getting one for Xmas this year 🙁
    If you can sort out some of the confusion you’ll have done well
    Thanks for reading

  • Glenn

    The findings from many reputable groups over the years have me convinced that LENR is for real. In fact, I am convinced that there are multiple varieties of LENR that have been shown: it is a new family of reactions.

    I think that a lot of people, non-engineers in particular, do not appreciate that there is a giant leap from merely showing that an effect like LENR exists, to being able to harness and control that effect at a degree of magnitude and stability that makes it economically practical.

    I don’t believe that such a leap is impossible here, but it’s definitely a big risk for someone to take with their money.
    A mere scientific novelty does not get businesses and governments spending the big dollars on R&D. There needs to be a tangible promise of real return-on-investment.

    The thing about Rossi is this: he claims to have made (or has at least mostly made) the giant leap.

    Two years ago I believed he was selling snake-oil.
    But as he has gradually opened up about his work, showing us pictures of his devices and labs, it’s gotten to the point where I strongly believe that maybe he is doing the work and getting the results that he claims that he is.
    Maybe I underestimate the work-ethic of a scamster, but it appears to me that Rossi has done much more physical labor with this project than a scamster would ever bother with.

    I hope that Rossi continues this trend of being open with the people who are following him. This last couple of weeks has been very encouraging.

  • I knew LENR was real about five days after posting my presentation on slideshare in July 2012 (now posted at http://www.lenrproof.com ), when I got a call from a chief of staff at the Pentagon, who just happened to know an awful lot about Rossi, LENR, etc. Then a week later when I got to see Celani operating his demo in S. Korea producing 20W excess heat at Iccf-17, with National Instruments engineers doing the testing and validation.

    Many good things are coming, especially from MFMP… fingers are also crossed for rossi, dgt, brillouin, etc to make a big leap.


    • Roger Bird

      “I got a call from a chief of staff at the Pentagon” Are you serious? If so, tell us more. If not, do a smiley face.

    • K

      Thank You !!!!

    • Fibb

      Pentagon eh? cool… I love your slide show btw. Thanks for doing it!

      • Yes, very true indeed. One of the more interesting phone calls I have ever had and one of the main reasons I believe that Rossi may actually have the goods. Note that nothing was confirmed to me, but the call itself, who it was from and their awareness was quite telling.

        I just hope Rossi steps up the pace a bit instead of keeping his secrets (e.g. catalyst) so close to the vest. I understand his hesitancy and desire for the success of Leonardo corp, but jeez already.

        Please if you can make sure to support MFMP @ http://www.quantumheat.org . Lots of good stuff happening there and everything in an open way. The guys I am working with (all volunteers btw) are great scientists and the smartest guys I have ever met. Please also keep the ideas flowing about the catalyst – we have gotten lots of good ideas from these forums which we plan to test and develop on. We are trying very hard to prove LENR beyond any doubt in an easy to replicate system and then scale up the power so anyone can build upon it.


        • clovis


        • Franz

          I hope the oil price will drop to 10 dollars, then saudi arabia etc. will be forced to open their primitive world view of dressings their women in black sacks and their wasteful lifestyle of building cities in nomansland.

          • lenrdawn

            I doubt that LENR will make mini skirts popular in Saudi Arabia. Look at the nations around them who haven’t got any oil. Same thing – only without Ferraris in front of the mosques.

        • Bob

          The Pentagon is not staffed by gods. They are just ordinary people and going on the calibre of some of their other decisions, they are not all that smart.
          You only need to listen to the news to determine that some of their utterances are just tripe, plain and simple tripe.
          That’s not to say they are all incompetent in all matters but when they are speaking outside their area of expertise then it is of no more value than the opinion of anyone else.
          I would put no weight at all on what someone from the Pentagon says on LENR unless it is backed up by proven facts.

          • artefact

            If Tyler got a call from Obama I guess you would say someting like: “Obama is no scientist and does not now what he is talking about”

          • artefact

            Then let me rephrase:
            Whoever would have called Tylor, Bob would find something to belittle it like they did at ECN.

          • artefact

            now -> know

          • Bob

            I would say that as the president of the USA he would be smart to ask for an investigation into anything and everything which may have some possibility of affecting the position of the USA. LENR certainly has the potential to do that if and when it is proven to have that capacity.
            So far it has not but one day it may well do just that.
            The fact that he even mentions it would not imply any belief that it is effective at this point.

        • lenrdawn

          COS of the Army is General Odierno. Navy: Admiral Greenert. Air Force: General Welch. Marines: General Amos. National Guard: General Grass. So which one of them called and what did they want to know that you could tell them after having compiled a powerpoint presentation containing a tiny subset of the information which everybody interested in the subject could google in half an hour? Most importantly: how did you know the guy was who he said he was?

          • Roger Bird


        • Alp

          Tyler, I like MFMP too but I have to ask you: if Rossi’s ecat is real, why are they needed?

    • Bob

      Two years after the announcement of products ready for market and you’re relying on “fingers are also crossed for rossi, dgt, brillouin, etc to make a big leap.” ?
      You do realise that crossed fingers has no basis in scientific fact or engineering priciples. 😉
      I know of a few bridges and other structures which relied on this principle and they came down in the first breeze.
      Actually, one came down in no breeze at all. Apparently the fingers came unexpectredly uncrossed and thwhole lot just collapsed.
      Although that’s not what came out at the enquiry but I’m sure that must have been it. Oh dear.

      • Roger Bird

        Bob, your post was a waste of bandwidth.

        • GreenWin

          Roger, the more you post the more tro11ish you appear. Chill.

        • Bob

          Oh I’m sooo sorry.
          Now I feel just terrible.

    • tq

      There is a big mistake in your page. You say that lenr was discovered by Fleishman and Pons.
      You may not know about J.Tamberg.

      “In 1927, Swedish scientist J. Tandberg stated that he had fused hydrogen into helium in an electrolytic cell with palladium electrodes. On the basis of his work, he applied for a Swedish patent for “a method to produce helium and useful reaction energy”. After deuterium was discovered in 1932, Tandberg continued his experiments with heavy water. Due to Paneth and Peters’s retraction, Tandberg’s patent application was eventually denied. His application for a patent in 1927 was denied as he could not explain the physical process.
      The final experiments made by Tandberg with heavy water were similar to the original experiment by Fleischmann and Pons. Fleischmann and Pons were not aware of Tandberg’s work”


      And Kurt Peters

      In 1927, Peters and Friedrich Paneth published their results on the transformation of hydrogen to helium, now known as Cold fusion. They later retracted the results, saying they had measured background helium from the air.


  • K

    No moderation on JONP for a very long time now.
    Something must have happened.

    A.R. back to Europe ?

    • My newspaper, The American Reporter, has a special section on our homepagecalled “AR’s Coverage of Cold Fusion,” and it covers a great deal of the cold fusion/LENR discussion. I hope your users will enjoy it!

  • Susan Corrigan

    Andrea Rossi has said that if he were to view reports of his invention, then it would be his duty to be a skeptic about it. The intelligent approach is to effectively say that there is nothing that can be proved or disproved until we are presented with more facts. At that point, we will know.

  • Anonymole

    Proof? Evidence? The “Word” of Rossi is all we need no? Let us bow our heads, pray and simultaneously chant for confirmation, Ohmmmmmmm…

    Here’s a dichotomy to ponder: if Rossi truly has the goods, if he has done what no other on the planet has done and created a true and useful nearly free energy source, a source that would prove so disruptive as to easily compare with gunpowder, the steam engine, the internal combustion engine and as has been discussed elsewhere – fire itself, wouldn’t you think there would be an overwhelming inundation of investigative interest in this new found source of energy?

    Now I’m talking about a bit of technology on par with the integrated circuit, the sail, the wheel even. Wouldn’t you think that every energy company on the planet would be drilling into this phenomena that Rossi is supposedly now shipping? Digging into the entrails of what Rossi is touting. We’re talking about trillions and trillions of dollars at stake here. We’re talking about the salvation of the planet, of the human race even. Don’t you think there’d be a bit more of a fever pitch anticipation level than this month by month accounting of “Rossi Says”?

    Imagine if Pons and Fleishman had gotten it right at the start, those 20+ years ago? The world would be a hugely different place today if they had.

    So, is Rossi going to save the world? Unlikely. Right now the world certainly doesn’t care what Rossi Says, because, otherwise, we’d be having a vastly different discussion right now. A discussion about a marvelous future that LENR would bring; not this 2 year old dead pan story of continuous innuendo.

    • Bob

      Oh Anonymole,.. You’re far to logical for this discussion. Now be quiet or I will have to ask you to leave. 😉

      • GreenWin

        No “Bob,” anonitrol says “…wouldn’t you think there would be an overwhelming inundation of investigative interest in this new found source of energy?”

        Not when brilliant bulbs like Bob Park the APS attack poodle declare LENR “pseudoscience” – and scare fed scientists into wetting their knicks. It’s guys like Bob Lee who corrupt science with influence peddling, and organized tripe. Bob’s so well informed in physics he writes a weekly column asking his sycophants, “What’s New?” Certainly not Bob, he’s very old.

        • lenrdawn

          Yeah, good point… about as old as Focardi.

          • Roger Bird

            I resemble that remark, at least I feel like it.

        • Alp

          I’m puzzled by your concern about critics. What difference would critics, skeptics, and even government cynics make if Rossi’s claims are real? Who could stop the ecat if it does what Rossi says it does? Can Parks stop Google from buying an ecat? Can Parks stop NASA from testing it? Of course not!

          To get the revolution started, all that is needed is just one customer who bought the good old dry steam-making industrial megawatt container plant. One customer who will allow the press and selected scientists, unconnected to Rossi, to witness a good test of it.

          Rossi and his elusive customers could make cold fusion an everyday household word almost overnight in this manner. Why don’t they?

          • GreenWin

            I dunno Alp, ’cause creaky ole nobelists like Murray Gell-Mann say it ain’t so??

          • Alp

            Do you really think Google, GM, GE, the Navy, the Chinese, the Brazilians, etc. etc. etc. ETC.(!) would give one hair on a rat’s ass what musty old scientists thought if their investigation told them that Rossi actually had something that worked?

          • GreenWin

            Since you mention Navy, they seem pretty interested having filed for and received a USPTO patent for cold fusion. And NRL is part of the ENEA, SRI, U Mizzou, “Metal Hydrogen Systems for Energy Applications” project meeting next month at the Euro Parliament.

            Codger Gell-Mann pulls strings at MIT which for some reason, politicians think is a cauldron of wisdom.

          • Roger Bird

            All of this is the perfectly natural course of events. The old guard defends it’s intellectual and financial turf and makes fun of the new ideas. The only difference now is that government is deeply involved. It took 100 years for science to get over the phlogiston theory. But we have the Internet. Let’s just make sure that government doesn’t get control of the Internet; if they do, we will have something akin to 1984.

          • GreenWin

            The old guard? Same old guard that worship at the Alter of Newton? That’s Sir Isaac Newton, inventor of “gravity” who, BTW, was a secret pseudoscience alchemist. Oh dear.

          • Roger Bird

            Your point?

          • GreenWin

            Roger, I am not critiquing your comment. The “point” is, the old guard constantly whine that cold fusion is “pseudo-junk science.” Yet the old guard are beholden to the Newtonian universe – Newton is their savior. How unhappy must the guard be when confronted by the fact that their savior was a dyed in wool alchemist – the very pinnacle of pseudoscience! Tantamount to revealing that god worships the debil. 🙂

          • GreenWin

            BTW, Newton is a very smart guy. Interesting isn’t it that such a smart fellow spent decades secretly researching alchemy.

          • Thinks4Self

            Wouldn’t alchemy just about describe the transmutations we can do now? We can turn lead into gold but it much easier to do turn gold into lead. The alchemists in ways were the first real scientists and chemists. They did raw science but with flawed theory.

          • Bob

            Thank you Alp. I agree.
            You saved me writing all that.
            If Rossi produces so much as ONE working device pumping out energy for a few weeks for all to see, how much attention would anyone pay to what anyone says against it.
            ‘There is nothing so powerful as an idea whose time has come.’
            The idea has come but the product has not.
            Show us the ‘products ready to market’.

          • Lens

            Totally agree. When Rossi was getting started he claimed to have a device continuously pumping out heat. Such a device, even if it was only pumping out 100w would end all my doubts. Instead we have something that looks more and more like an investor scam as time goes by.

          • Roger Bird

            Must be a time thing or something. Lens did not get the report yet.

    • robyn wyrick

      Hi Anonymole,

      I see it very differently. Instead of your “if it works, why don’t we have it”, I think it is possibly something that works with specific ingredients, in specific conditions: like aeronautics. Get powered flight wrong and you crash and die. And that’s exactly what happened to numerous experimenters before the Wright Brothers.

      Just before the flight at Kittyhawk Lord Kelvin infamously stated that “Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible.”

      So maybe after the drubbing of Fleischmann and Pons in ’89, and the relegation of Cold Fusion to the status of “Junk Science”, maybe the research necessary to actually develop the specifics of stable, reproduceable CF languished.

      Maybe the relevant framework is that it’s actually hard to get right. And that’s why we get glimpses.

      Considering the “certainty” with which physicists repeatedly claim that Hot Fusion will be the energy of the future (for fifty years now, always in the future), I’d think it’s fair to have a bit more cool about dumping on researchers such as Celani, MFMP, Toyota, Mitsubishi, the folks at U of MO, MIT, the EU, etc. And yes, Rossi too.

      But hey, I am not proving them wrong. I’m not running any experiments. I’m just a guy with an internet, maybe I’m off base.

      • Anonymole

        @Robyn, I’ve considered such arguments and can appreciate your point of view. I acknowledge the difficulty of producing a viable LENR product. But this is a difficulty Rossi has proclaimed to have overcome.

        Two points I’d like to include in the above that add emphasis are

        1) This is energy generation we’re talking about. Every human on the planet would be immediately impacted by the confirmed discovery and creation of a device that produces nearly free energy.

        2) In concert with the immediate impact is the immediate distribution and dissemination of the announcement. Imagine if NASA were to announce the discovery of “Life on Mars”. How quickly would the balance of humanity learn of this discovery? Within a day? A week? An hour? I believe the discovery of nearly free energy will be just as big and the news travel just as quickly.

        It is this impact of NFE and of the news and knowledge of NFE that is missing from this “discovery” by Rossi. If it were true, the needs of the world would have insisted that the news was instantly confirmed and spread. Where is the fervor? Where is the buzz? If true the disruption to the world’s society would be impossible to contain.


        (good one GreenWin)

        • Among those following the story there is plenty of fervor and buzz, Anon — but its only relatively a very few people who are paying attention. I have often wondered why this is not a bigger story in the media because in my mind it should be. The conclusion I’ve come to is that most in the media shy away from covering things which are ‘impossible’ and to good to be true. It’s understandable, really. Fear of being scorned by people in authority is a powerful motivating force, and I think that fear is part of the reason that stories like this are kept out of the mainstream news.

          If a convincing 3rd party report comes out, I don’t expect there to be immediate worldwide attention, either — because this story is off the radar of most in the media. My guess is that the new will percolate up from the blogosphere (where we exist) and possibly reach some big outlets after some time has passed. I may be wrong about that, however — it’s hard to tell what would happen.

          • Roger Bird

            Here’s the deal: Frank the admin is absolutely right. Understand that the people deciding what stories to run are not the people who put the time in to get deep enough to discover that LENR is true. The people who make the decisions about which story to run (and are afraid of embarrassment) only hear the disparaging 10 word summaries. BUT, Forbes is ready. This will be the hole in the dam that will start the flood. Not to worry; the dam is made out of dirt. As long as there is no leak; it will hold. When a leak appears, the dam is going to crumble.

        • GreenWin

          Dear Anonytrol, (note spelling)

          yours is the checkered swan argument that if anything of great import were to happen, well, the whole world will come to your door. Wrong. Take for example the announcement on August 7th, 1996 by President Clinton and Dr. Jack Gibbons, that meteorite 84001 compellingly indicated the presence of life on Mars. Stunning. We are not alone???

          Did the earth stop turning? Did the Abos of Australia stop hunting? Did the fulcrum of human intelligentsia fall to their knees?? NO. The world shrugged and said, “How’s it gonna make my life better?”

          It was six years (1902-1908) before the American press finally reported the Wright Brothers flew an airplane over Paris (winning the Michelin Cup.)

          Anonytrol, just because you have a press conference or demonstrate an effect does not mean the world comes to your door. Get over it. Yours is the specious imagining of failed logic and dysfunctional argumentation.

    • AB

      The logic in your argument is roughly

      “If it was real, more people would have taken interest” which leads to “therefore it’s likely not real, and therefore I will not take it serious.”

      There are a couple of problems with that logic:

      1) Nature doesn’t care about popular opinion. Whether something is real or not does not depend on the majority opinion.

      2) The majority of people know little about the subject, most believe that LENRs has never been replicated and have been “debunked”. If they’re not up to date on the situation, they cannot assess the situation accurately. So once again the majority opinion is of little relevance in deciding what’s likely to be true.

      3) The argument goes that Rossi hasn’t sparked interest in the topic, but the reality is different. If you have been following the story then you should know that in the last few years there has been renewed interest in LENRs, certainly at least in part due to Rossi. Rossi’s former partner Defkalion even decided to develop their own LENR technology.

      • Peter Roe

        Well said, AB.

        I wonder how many more times this particular specious debating point will be made by ‘debunkers’ on this blog.

        • GreenWin

          The “bob n’ mole” show is a repetitive tautology contributing nothing to this site.

          • Alp

            What does it contribute to take everything Rossi says at face value? Where has that gotten us so far? Intelligent questions and comments should be welcome, even if they don’t always agree with Rossi’s claims.

          • GreenWin

            Should constructive critique or “intelligent questions” occur, they will be welcomed.

    • Roger Bird

      Anonymole, your argument is based essentially on the principle of “what someone else thinks”. Imagine, if you will, you are in the good ship “Santa Maria” in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean and it is the Summer of 1492. And you are getting worried about ever seeing land again. And you say to Columbus, “Chris, don’t you think that if this was a good way to China people would already be traveling this way? With everything at stake, with the millions of shekels at stake, don’t you think that someone else would have sailed this way. If this really were the greatest geographical discovery in history, don’t you think that all of the governments of Europe would be busy trying to go west rather than around Africa?” And you would be right. It was a really poor way to get to Far East, and Columbus was wrong.

      • Anonymole

        Roger, my intuition is that our “now” is not like the now of 1492, or any of the “now”s up until about 2000. That information and the ability to learn and know about something, anything, everything has changed and that one can no longer compare awareness concepts of “then” to “now.”

        The information world is vastly different today and that arguments using swans, white or checkered, or apparent ignorance gaps no longer hold merit. If information is missing in today’s world there is a reason for it. If information should have been forthcoming but isn’t, there’s a reason for it. Mostly likely it’s because there is no information, otherwise, in this day and age, the world would already be chattering about it.

        It’s a tenuous and subtle point I realize, but one I think explains the Rossi phenomena. Not LENR mind you. I’ve never contested LENR.


        • Roger Bird

          I disagree. We are journeying into an area that no one has ever gone. Some swear up and down that there is no there there, that there is no terminus. Some are afraid to look bad. They all avoid the subject for fear of ridicule, not for fear of drowning in the Atlantic, but for fear of losing their jobs, their grants, their reputations. MIT et. al. were honestly unable to understand how cold fusion could work, and were dishonestly delighted that it did not impinge upon their paychecks.

          • Anonymole

            True. I suppose also, in this instant information distribution world the need to sequester, suppress and covet information is even more important. Once it leaks – poof! – it’s gone and out in the wild. Any tiny bit of association would be twisted perhaps in favor but most likely against any researchers or investigators digging into this topic. Fair point.

            With a greater ability to share comes a greater need to contain.

          • Bob

            So in conclusion of all this, it is useless to argue the validity of the Rossi technology on the basis of opinion because it is perfectly valid for everyone to have their own opinion.
            It can only be argued on the basis of revealed facts.
            So far, the revealed facts do not look very convincing, particularly because the few facts which would conclusively decide the argument have not been revealed.

          • Roger Bird

            Almost nothing that we know is from direct experience. I know that aspirin reduces pain. I know that too much ice cream is really bad for me. But with things like whether the speed of light is absolute, we have to trust someone.

            I choose to trust the various physicists that saw Rossi’s E-Cat work as my “proof”. However, those same physicists did not see Rossi control his reaction; therefore I await “proof” of Rossi’s control.

    • G_Zingh

      This is the white swan argument: “Me and my friends have never seen it before therefore it doesn’t exist” with a little mumbo-jumbo sauce on it. Or the: “it’s never been done before therefore it can’t be done” argument.

      I rank it on par with the: “Ïf Rossi had what he says he has he could easily sell it to a big oil company and get a billion dollars for it” argument.

      Which must be a cousin to the “Ïf Rossi was for real he could easily prove he has the goods. Why hasn’t he done that why, why, why?” argument.

      When I put these arguments on one side of a scale and the testimonials of scientists who have seen the LENR effect and the Ecat effect in particular, I consider that compelling reason to support the Rossi claim.

      • Alp

        Have you read the critiques of those tests? Do you have a response to them? The main problem is that each and every test so far was done with extensive participation by Rossi. What a lot of people are asking for is independent testing. Rossi says he has gotten it. Why doesn’t he say who did it and what they found? The excuse that it needs to be published in a scientific journal first seems like more delaying to no purpose.

  • The original public demonstration of the E-Cat in January 2011 got me hooked on this compelling story. There have only been a couple of occasions in the last 2-1/2 years where I have doubted the credibility of Andrea Rossi and his work. And when it comes to supplying his technology to the military, I will have to disagree with Rossi’s approach.

    I made light of Andrea Rossi’s disdain for the dogma of the established scientific community and his contempt for the Snakes that have hounded him since day one.

    I’m still hopeful that he, and maybe Prof. Focardi, will get a Nobel Prize, I just don’t know which year that will be!

    • Toussaint

      At last !

      The leaked video of Rossi Catalyzer !


      • David Kaiser

        hillarious !

    • KD

      I don’t agree with a military use of the technology.
      It is not a secret how expensive is delivery of the fuel to deliver to remote areas military is operating. This is funded from our taxis.

  • artefact


    Wikipedia Cold Fusion Energy: A Journey Into the Depths of Wiki Science

    “To get to the heart of this matter, we will go beyond the surface of the field of battle at the Wiki cold fusion article and find, there in the depths of Wikipedia, the workings of the science behind the clean low energy nuclear reaction environment; now emerging into the marketplace as popular ‘cold fusion’ LENR energy.
    ….. ”

  • Clamator

    I have been following this story since the October 2011 excitement and while Rossi has not proven himself, neither has he been exposed as a fraud yet. I’m inclined to believe in his work for this reason. If I was an investor, and felt I had been scammed, I would certainly put the word out to help prevent the fraud from continuing. This lack of negative exposure combined with the work of Celani and others leads me to remain hopeful.

    • Anonymole

      Not in a pyramid scheme though… The exposure of the truth is exactly what you don’t want. Just ask Bernie Madoff’s early investors…

      • GreenWin

        Golly anonytrol, do you have any irrefutable evidence that LENR is a fraud??

        How about the written word of Dr. Robert Bussard (DOE/Atomic Energy Commission) that hot fusion and the tokamak white collar welfare program is a fraud???

    • Chris

      I think this describes well: Sydney Youngblood
      Album: Feeling Free

      A year has come, a year has gone
      Still hanging tough, the blues is going on
      Fingers walk the edge of time
      My heart is burning, I’m ready to fly but

      All we can do is sit and wait
      All we can do is just sit and wait (they say)
      All we can do is sit and wait
      All we can do, yeah, that’s what they say
      Sit and wait, sit and wait, just sit and wait

      I could run away and touch the sun
      Where there’s a spark could be a fire
      Impossible dreams and promises
      Still I ain’t nothing, I ain’t nowhere

      All we can do is sit and wait
      All we can do is just sit and wait (they say)
      All we can do is sit and wait
      All we can do, yeah, that’s what they say
      (Sit and wait) all we can do (sit and wait) is sit and wait
      (Sit and wait) all we can do (sit and wait)
      Is just sit and wait (they say)
      All we can do is sit and wait
      All we can do, yeah, that’s what they say
      Sit and wait, sit and wait, just sit and wait

      Ooh ooh ooh
      Oh, they make me wait

      Mmm, all we can do is sit and wait
      All we can do is just sit and wait (they say)
      All we can do is sit and wait
      All we can do, yeah, that’s what they say
      Sit and wait, sit and wait, just sit and wait

      Ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh ooh
      Ooh ooh, hey hey, they make me sit and wait, oh oh oh oh oh oh
      Ooh ooh
      Oh, you make me wait (oh oh)
      Oh oh

  • Felix Fervens

    On the upside, there is compelling scientific evidence from the likes of US Navy-SPAWAR and Mitsubishi that LENR is real (and lots more, many of which are linked in other comments). On the upside, Rossi has not behaved like a classic fraud, out to make a quick sting; if he is a fraud, he is a most patient and erratic fraud.

    On the downside, the E-Cat has been available on the open market for almost 2 years with a money-back guarantee of 6 times energy gain but has sold possibly one unit to an outside customer. Is there really that small a market for the greatest technological breakthrough of all time, guaranteed?

    For me E-Cat has not been definitively disproven. Based on the endlessly interesting unfolding story trickling out on this site and elsewhere, my judgment is that there may well be something real there.

    The power and the passion involved with such a disruptive disclosure as E-Cat, pondering the implications and backroom conspiracies it would entail is better than any science fiction. It is ludibrium, the world as stage. For now.

    • Anonymole

      “ludibrium” Wow! Great word. Maybe that’s the key. Maybe Rossi is simply a bizarre media ploy being played by the likes of Gazprom, Exxon, Aramco, et al. while they manipulate the world behind our backs. I should write conspiracy fiction novels I tell ya.

      • GreenWin

        “I should write conspiracy fiction novels I tell ya.”

        No, you shouldn’t.

  • Roger Bird

    Why aren’t we talking about this report and it’s pictures: http://www.scribd.com/doc/105322688/Penon4-1

    I know it was about 10 months ago, but I never heard of it before.

    • Barry

      Yeah Roger, 3rd party report from last Aug. seems pretty compelling to me.

      • Roger Bird

        But Barry, as much as I liked it, it was about mass vs. temperature. It does show that Rossi has the energy and energy density, and that part is rock solid. But what about the control.

        So, I guess that we should not complain. We have energy or heat nailed down. What about control, though?

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      I agree, all of Rossi’s demonstrations, especially this one, have been overlooked or deliberately suppressed. Because they were too good to be true or just too disrupting to the current power structure? Only history will tell us. I am totally disgusted with our investigative journalists. Only the Nobel price will end the controversy.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    This old video is before the E-Cat came on the scene but it’s a good introduction to the history or cold fusion (i.e. LENR). http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j8jR2N6TP_0

  • Roger Bird

    Despite our instantaneous modern communications, people are still going to have their biases, their perspectives, their stubbornnesses, their anxieties, their limited time, their greed, etc., etc., etc. Let us not add to their mental barriers that we all have, some stronger barriers than others, by calling them names and saying how evil they are for not recognizing LENR sooner. Just deliver the goods and help them nicely understand if they ask.

  • Einar