LENR — The Next Phase

For over two years now the big question that has been discussed here on E-Cat World, day in and day out, is whether the E-Cat technology is really creating significant excess energy. In my estimation, the publication of the 3rd party report today has helped to answer that question for many — but there is a long way to go before there is general acceptance of the reality of LENR as a viable and superior source of energy. There is more evidence needed to convince many, and I am sure there are still plenty of people taking a wait-and-see attitude pending more information.

I have always thought that the publication of a decent 3rd party report would be a watershed moment in this story and would move us into a new phase of this fascinating saga — and I think that has happened. I have noticed that just from the amount of traffic I have seen on this site of the last couple of days that there is much more attention than normal. Hits on ECW have about doubled since the publication of the report, and seems to be holding quite steady — indicating a new level of interest in the technology.

My goal in starting E-Cat World in April 2011 was to bring attention to LENR in general, and especially the E-Cat, which I believed to be a very important discovery. I am of the opinion that Andrea Rossi has made a great breakthrough in the development of his invention, and that it is something that could provide real solution to some of the pressing energy problems the world faces.

My feeling now is that with the publication of this report there needs to be more awareness about LENR and it’s potential for benefiting the world. I would like to see this and other websites which cover LENR play a part in helping to spread awareness, especially when there seems to be little attention being paid by more influential mainstream sites.

There are many people from all over the world who are feeling energized and positive about this technology and who want to do something to move the cause along. One of the greatest assets of E-Cat World is its readership, many of whom I have found to be intelligent and capable people who believe in the potential of LENR and want to see it put to good use. I’d like to see if we might be able to engage in some efforts together to share the news about important things in the field, such as the report that has just been published.

So what can people who are supporters of LENR do? What resources do you think we can provide the public at large about the E-Cat and LENR? What are effective ways to spread news and information? I have some ideas which I will be discussing as time goes on, but I’d like to get the views of readers here. Perhaps we can organize somehow to do some useful work together. Any thoughts on the matter? Also, feel free to contact me privately too at [email protected] if you have any thoughts you’d like to share.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    As I have been preaching on this site forever, send emails to your elected officials, it is simple “google” “my elected officials”. Please believe me if enough of us do this we will get action.

  • AB

    I hope Rossi doesn’t end like JFK.

    • GreenWin

      That would eradicate all possibility of PTB control as AR has a dead man trigger set up. Same as Greer.

      • buffalo

        pulling a jfk would have opposite effect

    • Joe Shea

      Tell people about my book, “POWER,” that Rossi and Cold Fusion Now editors have praised and is available free at http://www.american-reporter.com. When people have a story, or a movuie, it often ramps up interest.

      • b4FreeEnergy

        Maybe a movie would help but Mr Greer meanwhile had his movie and I do not have the impression it did change a lot about the opinion people have about UFO’s and extraterrestrials in this case. (Sirius documentary) – Or maybe rather it did not change the coverage in mainstream media.

        I imagine me sending a link to this site to the biggest newspaper in my country but I don’t think it would matter a lot. Most probably the editor receiving the email has never heard about Rossi or LENR or anything related to that and would simply consider me as the next village idiot looking for some attention …
        (But well hey, I’ll give it a try and we’ll see what happens 🙂

        In any case, the news will get there eventually and meanwhile Rossi and his team have some extra time they can use very well to fine-tune what they have and get some lead!

        May the force be with Rossi!

    • kwhilborn

      It is not just Rossi though. He may have the best device atm, but we know Mitsubishi, Toyota, Honda, and a number of Universities and NASA are already on board the LENR research path.

      LENR is too well known to simply cover it up, and besides I think even wealthy Oil Barons all own a piece of Pepsi and Microsoft by now and want what is best for their childrens environment.

  • Jeff Clark

    Already sent the report and a link to this website to CNN. Lets all try and send a message to CNN and keep count how many were sent just to proove mainstream media refuses to listen.

    CNN 0+1 = 1

  • GreenWin

    People should be writing their own articles if they like to write. Here is Brad Arnold, a longtime LENR supporter writing in a new magazine:

    http://hplusmagazine.com/2013/05/21/rossis-e-cat-cold-fusion-reactor-validated-by-third-party-tests/

    Someone who is invested financially should hire a very good PR agency to get the word out. It would be money well invested IMO.

    • georgehants

      Good one.

  • georgehants

    From ExtremTec
    Cold fusion reactor independently verified, has 10,000 times the energy density of gas.
    http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/156393-cold-fusion-reactor-independently-verified-has-10000-times-the-energy-density-of-gas

  • georgehants

    popsci The future now
    Cold Fusion Machine Gets Third-Party Verification, Inventor Says
    The E-Cat strikes again.
    http://www.popsci.com/science/article/2013-05/cold-fusion-machine-gets-third-party-verification-inventor-says

    • Tyler

      That is almost as bad as the article they did on “Rossi’s black box” a few months back. Truly pathetic reporting. Unlike their headline, this was NOT reported by the Inventor, but rather a group of respected scientists who published the paper. They are unbelievable.

      On a positive note, most other reports on this that I have read have been mostly positive.

      go rossi.
      tyler

  • Karl

    Certainly an interesting topic and I said before once on this blog when we discussed how we collectively could support Miles in his competition to attract funding from an event organised by MIT. A focused group movement is likely to have an influencing power of the square of the number of people engaged. Of course Miles and we did not win the wanted position that time but perhaps it was all set up.

    I think one idea is still to try to organize certain movements together. The Miles experience was a good example of how many active persons on this site collectively tried to reach a certain goal. It is also good as you have done to focus on one promising project such as the E-Cat but of course not exclusively. It seems now that it was a good decision. If one come through the rest will follow.

  • daniel maris

    I suggest we all try contacting science writers for newspapers, TV networks etc and attach the 3rd party report. I have tried the BBC before now with no success but will try again.

    • Good thinking, Daniel. I wonder how much attention these editors pay to reader suggestions. I did email CNN yesterday and have heard nothing.

      • daniel maris

        Well you might be right, but it’s better than doing nothing, I guess.

    • georgehants

      If you could get the BBC to see beyond making out how important they think they all are you will have achieved a miracle.
      Pomposity to the extreme I think.

  • Shane D.

    Sticking to this report… where do the authors go with it now?

    Yes, they are starting the 6 month test soon, but do they intend to submit the May 19th report to a peer review journal?

    Having it validated by the more formal scientific process would do more for getting the word out then we could do. Not to say that there is nothing we can do, because there is, but it would be a nice step for the authors, in furtherance of the LENR debate, to submit this elsewhere.

    They may already have plans to do this… I just don’t know. Not sure if it is even peer review grade material? what with the secret ingredients and all.

    • Peter E

      They go to Elforsk

      http://www.elforsk.se/In-English1/

      Financial support from Alba Langenskiöld Foundation and ELFORSK AB, for the Swedish participation in the E-Cat test experiment, is gratefully acknowledged.

      Development through cooperation
      Cooperation between electricity companies, manufacturing companies and public authorities is important for work within Elforsk. There are 800 places on Elforsk’s advisory and decision-making bodies. These places are occupied by experts from electricity companies, manufacturing industries, public authorities and other interested parties. Programme teams within Elforsk draw up the strategic approach for the programme area in question. New R&D programmes are launched when interested parties decide on funding based on offers from Elforsk. Under the agreed programme, the interested parties then decide how funding should be employed for specific activities during the programme. A key task for Elforsk’s staff is to ensure that decisions are implemented in time and with the required quality. Another, equally important task is, together with interested parties, to formulate new research programmes and implement the results from these so that they are of benefit. This approach creates effective cooperation between business and industry, society and the academic community.

      ” Financial support from Alba Langenskiöld Foundation and ELFORSK AB, for the Swedish participation in the E-Cat test experiment, is gratefully acknowledged.”

  • buffalo

    lemmepudit2uthisway,the most potent thing to do to shake lenr awarenes rite now is another 3rd party report of say 20cop over next 3days,bam,catch evry1 unawares,double shockwave.

  • buffalo

    a quick succession of other or same 3rd party reports of monumentous cops is the only way to set this baby going.people dont want to read drivel,they want to see,end of story.

  • Cliff

    The best thing will be working products sold and operated by businesses that are open to the public. Secret sales to secret Government organizations don’t help spread the word. Put one of these things in Disneyland to provide heat and or power and you’ll get plenty of press.

    Another 3rd party report is just a waste of time. You need working products in the hands of people who need them, period.

    • Kim

      I agree on both your counts.

      Respect
      Kim

    • Miles

      I need to add my 2 cents. At the end of the day, the report is “JUST A REPORT” !!! The important thing is to get the “End Product” to market. Start selling LENR devices globally.

      I’m amazed (and also confused) that such a revolutionary technology like LENR isn’t making significant waves in the press?? WTH is going on???

    • Omega Z

      Cliff

      We need to bare in mind that the Hot-Cat is still in the R&D level.

      The test/report was Just a Preliminary test. Results of which determine whether the follow on test will be conducted.

      According to the Authors of the report, the Preliminary Test was impressive enough That the Follow on Test is a Go.

      Funding of about $250K for a 6 month test is to begin very soon.

      Those Providing the Funding are Kicking the Tires.
      BEFORE THEY BUY. It’s Just Good Business Practice…

      It may not be to Our Time Frame, But it appears it has begun…

      • Miles

        Well said Cliff. So, 2014 is the year it makes it or breaks it !!!

  • Torbjörn

    “In the case of cables in the systems control box-reactor (and between them), all participants had full control. All existing cables and connections were checked thoroughly and was fully visible. As far as I can see, there was no room whatsoever for smuggling of electricity past our measuring instruments.
    Regards
    Hanno

    PS And there was not (no room for smuggling) nor at Kullanders and my visit earlier and the thing with smuggling through the ground kable was checked as extra by Mats Lewan using appropriate test.”

    http://www.energikatalysatorn.se/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=560&p=25225&sid=625afa97723e82c4ff53603346f4b1d5#p25222

    “No, as far as I know no one has a financial interest in the
    invention. Also the measurements and the trips were financed by
    independent sources.
    regards
    Hanno”

    http://www.energikatalysatorn.se/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=560&p=25114&sid=3df51fa705752aac6ab8dbca762ad046#p25109

    “The article on arXiv.org is genuine and all writers provide the content.
    Hanno Essén”

    http://www.energikatalysatorn.se/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=560&p=25044#p25042

    • AB

      Thanks, it’s good to have a connection to Essén.

  • Brian

    I think that we won’t see any real movement forward until the E-Cat technology is acquired/licensed by a larger player. There are too many difficulties in making a commercial product for a lone inventor and/or a small team. A larger company with more specialized expertise in heat transfer, motors, mass production, etc is really the best chance of moving forward.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      It has already been done.

    • Fabian Montgomery

      I think total acceptance of this technology will not come until Rossi’s secret recipe is fully disclosed and the science is understood. Until then there will be enough doubt to feed the skeptics.

  • Pachu

    Admin, Frank, read here to trackback:

    http://arxiv.org/tb/1305.3913

    Kivrit is generating trackbacks on the arxiv paper to debunk articles…

    • Pachu

      Also the paper has been revisted, now is v2.

    • V

      I would ignore all those links from Krivit! I have done some extensive research on the guy and my only conclusion is that he is paid by a few sides. Also, the guy has no real scientific background and he is an IT consultant so really, why would Iisten to his babbling? I have followed him for a while just to realise how he actually twists everything he acknowledge! I was laughing my ass off when he was presented with undeniable truth from Mistubishi and Toyota about nuclear transmutations and he was mumbling like and idiot admitting something really strange is happening with this phenomenon!

      • Omega Z

        V

        He likes likes to name drop in a statement or paragraph Implying credibility to his statements. As if the one he names agrees with what he is saying.

  • JimP

    I think it is not up to us to be shills for Rossi et al. It’s time for Rossi to pony up with actual equipment – for sale and public demonstrations.
    If you notice, the questionaire on this site has been answered by all of 600 people. The people with the goods gotta deliver – not make us responsible for spreading the ‘word’ when spreading the product will do 100’s of time more to get public awareness kick started.

  • Joseph J

    FOSSIL FUEL AGE REPLACED BY COLD FUSION, WE ARE LESS THAN A DECADE AWAY FROM GLOBAL CLEAN ENERGY
    http://atom-ecology.russgeorge.net/2013/05/21/fossil-fuel-age-replaced-by-cold-fusion-less-than-a-decade-away-from-clean-energy/

    • artefact

      “It’s time for people to call on government and industry to save the world, and make a little money on the side…. not the other way around!”
      🙂

  • RenzoB
    • AB

      Krivit is becoming delusional. The skeptics are starting resemble conspiracy theorists.

      • Bertuswonkel

        He it not delusional, its is fairly normal physiological behavior:
        people tend to “throw good money after bad” and continue investing in projects with poor prospects that have already consumed significant resources. In part this is to avoid feelings of regret.
        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thinking,_Fast_and_Slow

        • AB

          Yes, it’s a pretty severe case of cognitive dissonance. He has no proof at all that Rossi is manipulating anyone. It’s literally a fantasy borne out him not wanting to face the conclusions of the test.

          • GreenWin

            All of which creates a delusional persona. Unfortunately Kirvit is a lone hustler with little or no education in science. Having to admit he is wrong is a full scale assault on his ego. He now joins the lunatic fringe of Bob Park, Johnny Huizenga, and Ron Ballinger in denial camp.

    • daniel maris

      I’m surprised Essen bothered to answer that guy’s questions. The answers would only be put to one use.

    • Pachu

      ATTENTION: He is generating “trackbacks” to the arXiv paper so readers and potential peer reviewers see Krivit’s articles too, thats a snake indeed!

      Here: http://arxiv.org/tb/1305.3913

      Someone should contact Hanno Essen to warn about this undecent behavior.

      • daniel maris

        That’s outrageous. Levi and co. should complain about that attempted sabotage. What a nasty way to behave.

    • Andrew Macleod

      Man and he calls believers delusional……

  • georgehants

    Science as usual celebrating being 150 years to late.
    ——
    Whodunnit’ of Irish potato famine solved.
    An international team of scientists reveals that a unique strain of potato blight they call HERB-1 triggered the Irish potato famine of the mid-19th century.
    Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-05-whodunnit-irish-potato-famine.html#jCp

  • AlainCo

    It is long tima That I try to imagine how thing will evolve and I evolved about that view.

    The first thing that apear certain is that there will be no scientific recognition of LENR until it is industrial.

    The second, is by experience, that some innovators, some old-industry executives, look at LENR already as a subject of opportunity…
    All of that is discussed behind closed door, and kept there.

    The next step is that more and more innovators will discretely work on LENR, fund research and innovation.

    Only when the first machine will be popular, (why not the LENR-cars) and some lords of science will be funded by defkalion or LENR-cities, will science accept the fact.

    our job is to find those innovators, to find those old-industry executives that can quietly work on building an industry.

    • MToll

      Sometimes I wonder… if this is a game-changing technology, if there is a fortune to be made, where are the industrial spies? the copycats? Wouldn’t the world’s intelligence agencies already have broken into Rossi’s factory and stolen some of the goods for further examination?

  • Thinks4Self

    My goal right now is 150 signatures to my petition on White House website. That will cause it to be published on the White House website for public view. Right now the link is the only way to see the petition. I am hoping that getting it published might get the MSM to pay more attention as I believe reporters surf the petitions for story ideas.

    So, not trying to be a spammer but if you live in the United States please sign the petition.

    http://wh.gov/SyJC

    • Ecat

      Done

  • Tom59

    One of my sons is studying physics (just started) and asked his professor about cold fusion. The professor said he did not know anything about it. Apart from sending mails to politicians, may be useful to send info and the 3rd party report to physics departments as well. With no publications in large journals, many academics – jounger ones – could be interested but simply don’t know.

    • Barry

      I asked students at MIT and some had never heard of it and some of them were studying nuclear science.

      • fortyniner

        Media management and control of educational curricula have done a pretty thorough job on this subject (and many others).

  • Kim

    Any news on the 1 Megawatt unit shipped to this
    here USA?

    Its been 21 days!

    Respect
    Kim

    • atanguy

      Good question Kim,it should be easy to know where it was delivered and also what about the first unit supposedly in the hands of the US military,any news?

    • Barry

      I think Rossi said 20 days for shipping then another 20 to set it up.

      • fortyniner

        Yes he did. He didn’t mention the further 20 days getting it to work properly and consistently as it may have done in the factory, by fiddling with settings, changing components and so on (‘troubleshooting’) – but it’s always necessary in my experience.

  • georgehants

    O’dear I think Mr. Rossi is out of business.
    —–
    Generate electricity without a drop of oil, gasoline, propane, natural gas or water.
    Carbon free electrical power generator. No tank, no fuel, no exhaust = Zero emissions.
    Generate electricity when you need it without using a drop of oil, gasoline, propane, natural gas or water. Use at home, at the cottage, on camping, fishing or hunting trips, at your construction site, in your warehouse or anywhere you need electrical power. No more wasting your hard earned money on expensive, toxic and polluting fossil fuel, tar sand (asphaltum) or fabricated shale gas (Hydrogen sulfide a.k.a. H2S). No more worrying about CO2 emissions, smog or global warming. The frenergy generator produces zero emissions. Because there is absolutely zero emissions the generator can be used indoors. Uses no oil, gasoline, propane, natural gas or hydrogen fuel. Uses no water. Not a drop of oil is needed or used for cooling or lubrication. There is no fuel tank or combustion motor to constantly fuel. The is no noisy and carbon monoxide poisoning muffler. The generator uses very low voltage electricity to generate high voltage electricity. You don’t plug it in and use metered electrical power either. It powers itself. Just turn on the switch and generate you own electricity, when you need it and where you need it. The ultimate green energy generating machine.
    http://presscore.ca/2012/generate-electricity-without-a-drop-of-oil-gasoline-propane-natural-gas-or-water.html

    • daniel maris

      I think one free energy obsession at a time is a good rule.

    • Kim

      Which brings up an important point

      I don’t care where free energy systems
      come from.

      What I’m tired of is MONEY lying to us.
      and brain washing us into believing I have
      to work till I’m 95 to pay for something
      that is universally abundant.

      Respect
      Kim

      • b4FreeEnergy

        Exactly, Free energy should be a human right not something we have to pay for!

        • Rheulan Grænkleda

          Good Lord! I’ve never considered the notion of free energy being a right. When the technology is ripe, toghether with minimum wage, it may be considered a human right, worth of a new human’s right declaration on it’s own. Minimum wage may even be considered redundant in a free energy context.

        • orsobubu

          b4FE, I sympathize with your ideal, but – in our capitalistic system of production – this would be a disaster. With free energy, you pay nothing, and since money is exclusively human worked hours exploited and converted in capital by the owner of the means of production, if you pay nothing you wipe out one of the most intensively capitalistic (machines and workers employed) sector of the economy. Human rights could be fulfilled only in a communistic society, where what matters is the user value (free energy) instead of the exchange value (money). And, most of all, a new tipe of free and clean fire would bring countless low human work-intensive technologies, automation, etc with a nefarious cascading effect in the amount of profit rate, which is totally dpendent on the average number of worked hours.

  • MToll

    I think the real game changer will be for the USPTO and EPO to issue a patent for Rossi. This will bring openness into the process and the attention of larger investors and industry partners, that can bring additional capital, engineering and product focus. Productizing technology is notoriously slow, and unless you are able to raise large amounts of money, you are forced to operate mostly undercover – exactly what is happening today – and rely on a shady practice of selling future distribution rights to local/small entrepreneurs to keep things moving.

    • Kim

      My gut tells me that we have not even
      had the first volley from big oil.

      They just raised their little finger a bit
      when Pons and Fleishman attempted.

      Respect
      Kim

  • Chuck

    Okay, if Rossi’s machine has been verified as working as stated, can someone tell me what the people at MFMP hope to accomplish?

    • Bill Hill

      I think that’s pretty clear, they want to link the production of energy using their method with what Rossi has achieved, thereby establishing P and F as the founding fathers of this technology and restoring their reputations.

      • Robert Ellefson

        That’s a remarkably odd theory. I can only speak for myself, but I highly doubt that restoring the credibility of P&F just for the sake of history would make it on a top-ten list of motivations for the MFMP participants. Personally, I am highly motivated to see LENR deployed worldwide ASAP, because it is the medicine our ailing planet badly needs. I believe widespread dissemination of an effective reactor design technology base, unburdened by intellectual property considerations, will be the only means to achieve this in a reasonable timeframe. While I am pleased that there is now proof that high-power LENR devices are possible, I am certainly not content to just sit back and watch Rossi et al continue weaving this tangled soap opera of greed behind closed doors.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Which “major” media outlet will break the third party test results first? My guess is CBS.

    • Andrew Macleod

      Sent them a tip…

    • Ecco the Dolphin

      It might be an idea to try tipping WUWT (wattsupwiththat.com), that de…finitely AGW-skeptic popular blog/website about climate and energy issues. Maybe not the best one for the LENR cause, but they’ve already covered Rossi in the past, plus they have 70000 daily page hits or so, and on the internet they can be pretty much considered as much mainstream as Fox News.

  • Sanjeev

    I hope a some people with deep pockets are among the readers.

    Those who are wealthy are in a better position to contribute. They should start meeting the people in LENR field, start R&D projects, tests and placing orders for Ecats, DGT’s or Celani’s product or similar.

    Recruit armies of engineers to find the catalyst by brute force or an entirely new class of LENR. Develop products, get certifications and push them in the market. Of course, it needs a few millions (and can take a few years).

    Those who are not so fortunate can set up websites, blogs or use social networks etc. My point is that ultimately the change is brought about by a few capable individuals in effective positions, not by herds who are mostly without any vision or understanding. Its good to spread the word and educate people etc, but its not so effective. For most, its some kind of entertainment. A person who has means to do something concrete is much more effective. If you are not one of these, but if you know any such person, please take an appointment.

    • AlainCo

      some do 8)

    • kasom

      good idea!

  • xy

    Having fun here:

    Option 1 – Some ecw reader works for a somehow established industrial company, I am sure of, and might talk his boss into buying a 1 MW plant now, since there’s a new legit reason to do so – publishing continual reports on the topic might bring even more benefits in form of worldwide advertisment campaign than the actual plant. Right?

    Option 2 – Crowdsourced public spa project powered by eCat acompanied by publishing a book titled “How we were the first to make business in the new era of humanity” (guaranteed long time best seller). That might work quite easily. People would send ten bucks just for the fun of it. It would make money even if it did not work at all. Krivit might be invited for a bath.

    • Kim

      Heating pools during the winter will
      be big business

      When people realize they can heat their
      pools for pennies on the dollar.

      Respect
      Kim

      • Mcloki

        Radiative heating in homes and condos. The second one of Rossis Hot Rods get connected to an electricity generating turbine, this thing goes ballistic.

  • Tom H

    “…it was decided to conservatively assume a value of ε = 1, thereby considering the E-Cat HT as equivalent to a black body.”

    I understand their explanation that the IR Imager software calculates a higher temperature reading when a lower emissivity is entered, but I’m not sure this is conservative if you follow through the rest of the grey body radiative energy calculation.

    If thermal imaging is used in any future tests (I hope not) the issue of grey body emissivity needs to be put to rest.

    • HHiram

      I agree, but is there any way this potential source of error could explain the 2-3 orders of magnitude (i.e. 100-1000x) value of anomalous energy output?

      • kasom

        never ever of course, but the KRIVITS will try because of money…

      • jfab

        Think in terms of COP, not energy density. So yes, maybe the emissivity problem could explain a COP > 1.

        The devil is in the details.
        ALWAYS.

        • fortyniner

          There is no ’emissivity problem’. The emissivity value used (1) is conservative because it yields the lowest calculated temperature, and therefore the lowest COP.

          You appear to be intent on spreading disinformation – I wonder why?

      • Tom H

        Yes. Use an emissivity of 0.20 and output equals input. Energy density you refer to would become zero.
        Lobos Motl provides a handy reference to emissivity of various materials. Certainly could be 0.20 .

        http://www.omega.com/literature/transactions/volume1/emissivitya.html

        • Alp

          Optical temperature was verified with thermocouples. I don’t think emissivity is much of an issue. Having said that, I am not convinced there isn’t some other trickery in play somewhere. It’s probably not emissivity though. And I have no idea what it might be.

          • Tom H

            “I don’t think emissivity is much of an issue”.

            It’s a direct input in the key report calculation of radiative energy output. How could it not be an issue? Output exceeds input by roughly a factor of four, well within the range of emissivities of metals at this temperature range. A lot of materials that appear black in the visible spectrum have low emissivity in the infrared band. As much as I want to see success for LENR, the supporting tests need to be valid.

          • GreenWin

            Everything you have written is BS Tom.

          • Tom H

            Green ,

            “Everything you have written is BS…”

            Do you have some more ad hom to add to the discussion?

          • GreenWin

            No. I try to remain succinct.

          • Sanjeev

            You are assuming too many things. First is that you are assuming that all the scientists who tested it 3 times for many months could not think about emissivity issue. Is that even possible ?

            Second, you are ignoring the fact that they used temperature sensors directly on the tube, and the readings agree within 2C (Page 18)

            Third, they used dots (see report) to determine the emissivity, it was not simply keyed in.

            Its clear you did not read the report, you have fed yourself with secondhand opinion of others, who clearly did not read it either, or intentionally don’t want to.

          • Tom H

            I’ve read the report quite closely for what’s not there.. Does it not concern you that the authors made no mention of the wide range of possible emissivities for metals (some as low as 0.10) when they have no idea of the material they are thermal imaging nor have they shown their calibration method is valid for the full range of emissivities? Despite the high energy densities, the calculated power output is not orders of magnitude greater than the power input and well within what could be accounted for by the emissivity.
            It’s simply a poor way to test an LENR device.

        • fortyniner

          Emissivity is a measure of IR radiation from a body at an elevated temperature. The actual amount of IR is calculated using a complex formula (stefan boltzmann) that takes as its starting points the actual temperature of a body, and its surface emissivity, ε – a simple arithmetic function.

          A perfect ‘black body’, ε = 1, represents a theoretical surface that radiates the maximum possible amount of IR at any given temperature. No real surfaces will actually achieve this performance and in reality all surfaces will have an emissivity of <1.

          As the emissivity becomes lower, less heat is radiated at any given temperature, and a compensating factor (1/ε) must be introduced in order to equate the measured IR reading to a perfect black body (i.e. the actual reading must be multiplied by 1/ε – a value always greater than 1 – in order to normalise it.

          At an emissivity of 0.2 for example, the actual temperature of the reactor would be 1/0.2, i.e., five times higher than the value calculated for a value of ε = 1. By using the lowest possible multiplier of 1, the paper therefore uses the most conservative (i.e., pessimistic) estimate of real temperature possible.

  • Charles

    The Greenies are in total manipulation of the Executive Branch. When, and if, they can get it through their thick heads that Rossi etal LENR efforts are the holy grail they have been seeking Big Oil will be buried. No more pipelines will ever be proposed. Time is the fulcrum over which the balance must take place. The balancing act will be the see-saw between greenies and big labor.

    The best approach, in my opinion, will be political time scaling that will not crush the world’s oil based economies in one swell foop, but will slowly but rapidly integrate LENR into the energy economy without crushing life as we now have it constructed. My thinking is that a free market should handle the process. It always works but is sometimes brutal. Bye-bye whip makers.

    • mcloki

      That will happen naturally. Gas prices will go down as demand goes down. The bigger problem is taxation. Gas taxes are quite a large source of revenue.

    • AlainCo

      I agree that enviro have the gretaest power today, but most are anti-technology, malthusianists, anti growth, anti-industry, anti-wealth…

      some green may support LENR, the one that fought pollution in the 70s… but today it is another team… they want regression like Quakers and Amish…

      • psi

        Um, you should do a little research on Quakers, as you obviously don’t know anything about them. Just saying…. : )

    • Robyn Wyrick

      “Greenies are in total manipulation”

      I wish it were true. But alas, no. The Obama administration are basically a middle of the road, Democrats.

  • Bertuswonkel

    I think it is not a good investment of time trying to get politicians on board. I gave up on them some time ago, they usually are quite disappointing. Randomly convincing other skeptics could work but it likely to be slow.
    I think that this is still a experimental technology, much is still unknown and the potential market is enormous. Developing a new branch in science is no easy task and replacing the energy infrastructure can not be done by one man or compan

    My strategy would be first 1) Identify

    • Roger Bird

      Politicians more than any other group are concerned about what other people think. They are the very acme of dependent thinkers, even the conservative politicians. Their professional lives are intimately connected with what lots and lots of other people think. We are only going to attract, at first, independent thinkers who are willing to look at the evidence.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Fortunately or Unfortunately politicians simply have power and that is what we need to move more dollars into LENR research. So, please Google “My elected officials” and write them, it will take five minutes.

  • jfab

    Read this from Rossi:
    “whatever the result, it surely had to be honest and really indipendent: none of the Professors are competitors, none made patents in competition with ours”

    LOL, so from his standpoint, “independent” means “not related to our competitors”. Of course, a test from a competitor could be negatively biased. But what about a test from associates and supporters, couldn’t it be POSITIVELY BIASED?

    That’s plain dishonesty. Rossi knows perfectly well his report is not exactly independent, hence this sort of half-baked calls.

    • Joel C.

      What are you trying to do here?

      It sounds like you came in here with a negative bias, with a pre-concieved notion Andrea Rossi is probably a scammer – in other words, you are as inherently susceptible to flaws of this kind of nature just as Rossi is. No one is perfect.

      So, we resort to look at the social/soft evidence surrounding this saga. Any perceptive person can pick up the signal although faint that Andrea Rossi does have something that is real.

      • GreenWin

        The paid tro11s here use a strategy to paint the highly qualified authors of this report as conspirators with Andrea Rossi in a vast international conspiracy to disrupt the utilities and oilcos. In fact the fraud is from these psyops sycophants who attempt to suppress the good news of clean, green, abundant energy.

        • psi

          It would appear that, unfortunately, this analysis is correct.

    • Robyn Wyrick

      I don’t think being someone favorably disposed is an equivalent bias to someone being a competitor.

      This is a 3rd party report by independent researchers – not dependent on him, but not unknown to him. Whereas a competitor, by implication, is dependent on Rossi’s failure.

      These are not people on Rossi’s payroll.

      Any researcher with a hypothesis is inclined to believe their hypothesis unless data fails to support it. That is what I take these authors to be.

      If you have some *actual* reason for dismissing the report, by all means, share that. Otherwise, it just seems like you want to snipe.

    • Andrew Macleod

      Do you honestly believe these university professors would risk their carreers to help Rossi run a scam that’s unlikely to earn any money. The snake oil sales man connotation doesnt work here, it’s not the wild west where you move onto the next town after ripping people off. Rossi’s if scamming would sell 1,10 maybe 100 devices before thrown in jail. Wow what a payoff 10 years of his life setting up the scam, rip people off for a cool million to sit in jail the rest of his life. News today travels at the speed of light, not on horseback. Think about it!

      • jfab

        As this as been pointed before, none of these “professors” (or assistant prof, or engineers, or technicians) have published anything, except Hanno Essén who has publish preprints.
        So they don’t have much of a career. Whatever the outcome of this whole story, they’ll keep their job, don’t worry.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          jfab……Believe me their reputation means a lot to them, for scholars like this their reputation is very personal and means everything.

        • kkauppi

          Google Scholar disagrees.

          Doing a quick search I could find several papers published by the authors(many of those in peer reviewed publications).

          • Roger Bird

            All but Evelyn Foschi seem to be well represented in the scientific literature. Giuseppe Levi was especially busy.

            jfab seemed to be completely missing in the list of people who either can get it right or refrain from lying.

          • jfab

            Alright, my mistake. I took this misinformation from Molts’ blog post.

          • Roger Bird

            jfab, I apology to you for being so harsh. In the future, you have to clear sources with the LENR Central Committee before you can read them.

            (:->) (Just kidding)

            It is just fine to follow up every doubt. Otherwise you aren’t thinking. But know that there are sources out there that lie and defame and libel, just to oppose LENR. There are sources that act from theory. Which scientific revolution happened because of an old theory? Exactly zero.

            Even I, a new dye in the wool convert to Rossi-ism, wants to know about the DC level of the input. Was it checked? Could it happen? I haven’t read anything yet to settle that issue.

    • Roger Bird

      It seems like you are working awfully hard to disbelieve. I don’t find my world filled with dishonest people, and when one comes along, I have no trouble identifying him/her. Just today a sales person called from a company I had asked to call me about information. I identified her dishonesty immediately.

  • DaPhys

    A question: Rossi claimed that the Ni-62 isotope was required in the e-cat. Can someone confirm that a significant amount of energy is required to produce Ni-62? Is Ni-62 produced by gaseous diffusion?

    In any case, the energy produced to charge the fuel, if any, should have been deduced in the calculation made in the report. Please confirm. Thanks.

    • GreenWin

      Er, that’s like saying the energy that goes to making a gallon of gasoline should be deducted from the energy density or MPG calcs. NO. A marginal command of physics will help.

      • Herb Gillis

        Another open question is whether the nickel isotope is consumed in the reaction. Rossi said last year that he no longer believes the bulk of the energy is due to the transmutation of nickel to copper. Others have speculated that the nickel is itself a catalyst, possibly for the transmutation of light hydrogen to helium. I asked a number of question of Rossi [on JONP] last year about the ultimate reaction products responsible for most of the observed energy output, but he did not give any clear answer. I got the impression he does not know. Where does the energy come from? Is the nickel isotope a catalyst or a fuel? Are we dealing with a nuclear transmutation- – or something even more exotic? These, in my view, are critical questions for future research. If the nickel is not being used up (at a rate commensurate with the energy production) then the cost of isotope separation is almost irrelevant.

        • buffalo

          ive speculated a 2nd law thermodynamics breach as opposed to nuclear and so has others eg.brian ahern of m.i.t. There are mechanisms to explain this.

    • Roger Bird

      That is a good point. I doubt if he used 100% pure Ni-62. There is probably some kind of enrichment process but not the pure stuff.

      • fortyniner

        Other isotopes of nickel are more valuable, so you can probably buy partially processed nickel with higher than natural 62Ni content from separators such as Trace Sciences (http://www.tracesciences.com/modesofproduction.html). Its only the pure isotopes that cost a bomb.

        • Omega Z

          Peter

          I read somewhere that Natural nickel is slightly less then 4%-Ni62 & 1%-Ni64. These being the ones that Rossi enriches.

          But we have to be careful about this as Rossi may just be throwing a curve ball to confuse the competitors.
          I’m no expert, but according to what I’ve read, Ni62 mutates to Ni63 then beta decays to copper.
          And according to Rossi this is a side effect that they have reduced.

    • Roger Bird

      This might be a business opportunity for some people. “Our Nickel is 45% Ni-62 or you don’t pay!!”

  • AB

    For more details on the preparation of test IBTimes contacted Italian Giuseppe Levi, nuceare physicist at the University of Bologna and one of the signers of the study. “As stated in the article, we are faced with a non-conventional source of energy” – said the researcher.

    Professor Levi praised the transparency with which the engineer. Rossi has allowed him and other scholars to the test: “We have been able to operate in complete autonomy and freedom. Outset it was clear that we could publish the results whatever they were.”

    On the nature of the reaction that allows the E-Cat to work Professor Levi has reiterated that it is not a proper chemical reaction or nuclear or properly: “Exactly. Definitely not chemical in nature. – Said Levi-L ‘ absence of radiation makes us say that it is a nuclear power is still new in nature than those known. “

    With regard to the production of energy instead of the results of the test are impressive and Professor Levi said: “These data are contained in the publication. Placing himself in the most conservative case you have energy density ten times greater than conventional ones. But this is certainly an extreme understatement. values ​​are published in the text which are probably more realistic. “

    Finally, at our specific question, if it considers that the E-Cat could revolutionize the energy cleanses, Professor Levi responded with a terse “Yes, without doubt.”

    Read more: http://it.ibtimes.com/articles/49127/20130521/fusione-fredda-e-cat-andrea-rossi.htm#ixzz2TxovlY00

    • georgehants

      Wow.

      • Kim

        Wow!

        • Andrew Macleod

          Wow!

    • artefact

      W.. .. W.. Cool!

      • artefact

        ok, Wow

        • daniel maris

          Wowser!

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      +1

  • Robert

    I wonder if this test meets Dick Smith’s satisfaction on his one million award for independant test? 🙂

    Anyone have any contact with him?

    • daniel maris

      Yeah, come on Dick. Time to pay up.LOL

      • Bob

        I’m surprised that they didn’t publish something prior to the end of January 2013. It may well have satisfied the requirements of the award and therfore they could have made a claim.
        The award expired end of Feb 2013 according to the blurb. http://dicksmithaustralia.com/
        ” The offer will remain open for 12 months from February 1st 2012 to the end of January 2013.” Although I read elsewhere that it was available until mid Feb 2013.

        I think even though the November test self destructed it should have at least proven the priciple and therefore been elligible for a claim on the award.
        $1,000,000 would have paid for all the expenses of the tests plus some beer money on top of that.

        • Bob

          Sorry, end of January 2013, not end of Feb. 2013

    • Roger Bird

      This is a common tactic: If someone doesn’t want to believe something, they merely elevate the standards for evidence and proof. If I was Dick Smith, I would withdraw his offer; it should be obvious to him that his $1,000,000 is in jeopardy. Eventually it will get to the point that LENR is undeniable and someone will collect.

      • GreenWin

        Yes. And as I have demonstrated, Smith is a fraud, having defaulted on his $1M “BeWilderforce Award.”

        • Roger Bird

          This tactic is very common in the health and medical arena.

          • psi

            Smith is a soup salesman. He should stick to things he knows something about.

          • GreenWin

            Smith is also an… “inventor”

            http://bit.ly/14X5pcc

      • dsm

        Did you ever read the offer ? – if you did you know it was for 12 months & that expired in feb.

        I set up the offer site and hosted it for that year.

        The offer was genuine & Smith would have paid up and Andrea would not have needed to have been seeking funds from people buying ‘agencies’ to sell a device they don’t have to sell.

        It remains appalling that so many people try to blame Dick Smith for Andrea Rossi’s inability to get real 3rd party validation. Nothing has changed.

        DSM

  • psi

    I wonder what those with greater technical expertise think of Lubos Motl’s critique, here: http://motls.blogspot.com/2013/05/tommaso-dorigo-impressed-by-cold-fusion.html#more.

    • GreenWin

      Motl fails to understand the emissivity assignment used by the paper’s authors and goes on to embarrass himself when he is corrected by comment. He then makes himself a fool by concluding the visible and measured radiation from the reactor is the sole result of the 300W electrical input. One need only LOOK at the red hot reactor cylinder to reckon this wrong.

      Motl is a AGW fanatic and lover of windmills. The appearance of a new form of nuclear energy sans dangerous radiation has so disrupted his narrowed mindview, he writes with the shrieking zeal of disemboweled banshee. He is especially upset with CERN’s Tommaso Derigo admission that he is impressed by the E-Cat’s verification.

      Like Michael Mann of climategate, these self-anointed priests of science hate when fellow priests wander off script. Derigo quotes the conservative estimate of power yield in the paper as the most impressive finding for him. This admission has caused Motl to suffer a form of neural-apoplexy; you can virtually see the spittle sprayed across his blog.

      • Roger Bird

        GreenWin, I did know that you were such a sarcastic Shakespeare.

      • psi

        Hey thanks Greenwin. I appreciate your analysis.

      • Andrew Macleod

        Very colour full descriptive wording!

      • Blanco69

        Nice one GW. In 20 years time school kids will have essays to write based on that gem.

        • fortyniner

          Especially I think, “he writes with the shrieking zeal of disemboweled banshee.” Love it.

      • Timar

        Motls arrogance and madness has nothing to do with him being a proponent of the theory of global warming, which is indeed proven beyond any reasonable doubt. It has to be understood against the background of his professional failure (he was fired from Harvard for his outspoken racist views, which put an end to his career).

      • Bob

        🙂 🙂 “you can virtually see the spittle sprayed across his blog”
        So what do you really think Greenwin?
        I do love reading a post which makes me smile.
        This would have made me smile even if it was about me. 🙂

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      I stopped reading after he called a respected colleague, “a lunatic”

      • psi

        Yes, he also slandered all Italians as mobsters, and when a reader called him on it he said he didn’t understand the point. Duh. But I was looking for some comment on his claims about emmisivity and power output.

      • AlainCo

        and you don’t hear him talk of women and blacks…
        He lose his position in US for such non-PC outing.

        anyway he make some very good point. just have to sort.

        LENR and othet scientific controversy taught me to stop judging people as a whole… people have competences, beliefs, position, interest, prejudices, ignorance…

        If I have been judging LENr scientists like some judge lubos, or rossi, or Sterling, or McKubre,… I would not have accepted the facts around LENR.

        this is why I have quite no beliefs, just some prejudices I fight, many conviction that are suspended to evidences and can change in one day, yet stay stable, and many domain of doubt where my “best bet” is changing all the time…

        Lubos, Krivit, MY, are example of people locked in a position… they conviction started rational, but get a groupthink, a denial…

        Since I change my position and conviction often, I can say it is internally painful… i can change twice a day on some detail, twice a year on more important points…

        and rossi is one of that hard bet… not the reality of e-cat and of LENR.

        I am very concerned after Rossi and Defkalion recent data, about industrial readiness of LENR technology.
        Seems still prototypes, if not still garage (not lab) toys.

        Seems not more solid that first Wright brothers plan, or first Cugnot steam-car.

        • fortyniner

          I agree with your assessment, and think that some commenters may be getting a little carried away. Prior to recent developments I think its fair to say that a number of observers including myself were having some difficulty with certain of Rossi’s claims and statements, some of which are undeniably fictions. There is therefore some relief in receiving confirmation in a short time of several of his more important claims, and (sometimes renewed) excitement is natural.

          However, we must remember that so far what we have seen is clear confirmation of anomalous heat, but NOT any indication that this heat can be used a source of power. The LENR reaction obviously depends on a thermal stimulus, and any active cooling system designed to extract power would reduce this considerably, perhaps ending the reaction. This is particularly true of the present deign, which places the electrical heating elements between the reactor and the external environment, so that the heaters would be subject to direct cooling by any external coolant.

          The gas cat design looks more hopeful from this POV, and may be the area that Rossi or the partner will focus on, as the largest currently available market outside of military applications would be the conversion of existing power generators (gas, coal, oil, perhaps even nuclear) to LENR. Of these, conversion of gas boilers would probably be the simplest and most profitable, partly because gas supplies would of course already be available, and also because gas boilers represent the larger part of the current powergen market.

          • GreenWin

            I agree with both Alain and Peter. The hysteria exhibited by Motl will repeat across blogs written to coddle science by consensus. These increasingly wild assertions about lack of independence (kirvit et al) or erroneous measurement are the cries of severely tested egos.

            As for the E-Cat technology, I am somewhat more optimistic about engineering solutions. As Peter suggests, should the electrical heating process become unstable under coolant flow, a natural gas source may prove more dynamic. Balancing the input demand under coolant flow, appears to be an engineering problem well suited to thermodynamic specialists.

            Hopefully just this expertise is available to Rossi via his corporate partner. Next challenge is to apply the LENR heat to a boiler to make steam. I vaguely recall Rossi stating he can make dry steam at 20 bar. Enough to turn a small turbine which in combined cycle can yield 35% efficiency.

            At any rate, the shrieking will not end, and the good doctor needs to remain vigilant, focused now on generating useful units of electricity. I would not be surprised to see an alliance (as with FC/CHP-makers) between E-CatHT and a NG utility. Such alliances are working in Japan between Panasonic, Toyota, Toshiba and Tokyo Gas Co.

          • Omega Z

            GW

            I think Rossi has already considered the coolant flow reaction situation.

            The double heat transfer process would indicate this. Heating Oil which then heats the water would likely be for the purpose of retaining heat balance & not disrupting the Reactor cycle.

    • HHiram

      Lubos’s only technical critique is of the emissivity factor, which the authors assume to be 0.95 and 0.8 in two different cases.

      Emissivity is a measurement of how much energy is radiated from a material relative to its temperature. An object that radiates ALL of its energy is known as a “black body”, and has an emissivity (or epsilon) of 1. Normal objects cannot be black bodies, so we call them “gray bodies” instead.

      The emissivity of a material depends very much on the physical structure of its surface. For example, the emissivity of *polished* stainless steel can be less than 0.05, but of brushed stainless steel it can be 0.85. This is a huge difference.

      If the emissivity is low enough, then even a small power input could allow a large amount of energy to build up in the material over time. This is because it would have a negative “radiation balance”, meaning more energy would be going into the object than radiating out of it.

      The reason why the Lubos analysis of emissivity is wrong is because it is impossible for a non-polished object of the E-Cat size (~0.4 square meters surface area) to radiate at 800C infrared and also glow white hot in the visible spectrum with only 300W input power.

      By comparison, the heating elements on an electric stove using to boil water use 1000+ watts, and they are much smaller area than the E-Cat.

    • Gerrit

      Lubos Motl start his own wikipedia article. That is how important he thinks he is.

      Giant ego, big mouth, string theory tinkerer.

      • Timar

        I kind of pity him. Years ago he made a rather brilliant contribution to string theory, but he was fired for his outspoken racist and sexist views (he claimed that african americans would be less intelligent than whites). He went back to Czechia and hasn’t contributed anything to physics since but withdrew to his blog, compensating his failure with an ever increasing swirl of megalomania and arrogance.

    • AlainCo

      The typical physicist.
      very good explain QM, string theories.
      ego bigger than US deficit.

      there is no good or bad people, there are people competent or not in various domain, and crossed that scale ther are people more or less delusioned on various subjects…

      he have some good points, and some bad, and clearly he is not honest enough to know himself where he is right.

      on emissivity he find a point, that is answered in the paper.
      good question, and good answer.. end of the story.

      moreover note that this test was done with comparative method, meaning that except for some detail, one error should apply to the blank run and the active run.

      next question.

  • Stevie Brooks

    I seriously hope that *if* another round of tests on the Ecat are performed this summer, that the team does a full control experiment on the reactor. This would go a long way towards convincing those who question the accuracy of the tests. As predicted by some on this site, there was no direct calorimetry done on the E-cat and it seems unlikely that will happen in a follow up test because it would require encasing the whole reactor in some sort of controlled flow environment.

    What they should do instead is have a double blind test of the machine. Rossi should be instructed to prepare two identical reactors except that one would lack the “special catalyst”. One person should have the job of knowing which reactor is the “dummy” and that person should take a long holiday in Antarctica during test. Then the exact same experiment should be run on both reactors. If the Ecat is for real, then the results should be clear.

    The “dummy” test in the first report must have been conceived by a real dummy. It shows nothing. The real issue with the report is the assumptions made about translating thermal imaging into energy density.
    Repeatedly stating that their assumptions are conservative is not enough because they didn’t give evidence that they can do indirect power calculations on a very hot metal tube heated by high power resistors.

    By the way, Rossi should have absolutely no interest in doing another test at this point. I doubt he will. I hope I am wrong. But extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence (at least outside of the comment sections).

    • Kim

      I respect and agree with you dialogue.

      Rossi was gracious enough to give full
      reporting and testing to these people of
      knoweldge.

      I think its time just to sell and let the
      customer report.

      It may take a long long time, but in the
      end there will be no doubt.

      Just like the wright brothers, they had
      to see it fly for themselves.

      Respect
      Kim

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      See, here we go again, after seven demonstrations and tests, there is someone who thinks he has this perfect test that will prove to his satisfaction….unending….my favorite is still the one suggesting they remove the ground wire from the power source. (:

      • dsm

        Hasn’t it occurred to you from day 1 that a proper 3rd party validation was *all* that was *ever* needed ?

        The reason so many folk here do come up with such suggestions is simply because Andrea always delivers a ‘bit’ of proof.

        D

      • Stevie Brooks

        Correction Bernie. There has been exactly one test that suggests a higher power density than plutonium. And the methodology used to produce this claim leaves much to be desired (as the authors state in the report!). My suggestion is to remove some of the doubt in the measurement. I never suggested that it will prove the Ecat a scam.

        If a second test with more careful calorimetry shows a much lower power density, you can claim the test was rigged by Exxon and the Rand company. It is a win-win for conspiracy theorists. Personally, I would like to know the truth, and even if the report is completely true, we have estimates spanning two or three orders of magnitude.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          Stevie Brooks……How long have you been following Rossi and his E-Cat? There have been numerous demonstrations, after each one, we heard, he should have tested it this way and that way, if Rossi followed all the testing advise, that is all he would be doing….testing to satisfy skeptics.

          • DaPhys

            How long have you been following Rossi? Rossi has a long history of having fooled people with false claims. His (petrol) dragon was a huge scam, let’s hope that his mouse&cat is not.

            The report does bring more questions than answers. I’ve already reviewed hundreds of scientific articles and if I have to review this article I would reject it, not because the e-cat is not real or because it does not produce any thermal energy or because I have preconceived ideas on LENR, but simply because the design of the study does not fulfill standard scientific requirements, and at the end the evidence given by the report is (unfortunately) close to none.

          • George N

            Scientific standards are only used to lobby research money from paperwork loving/political posturing government bureaucrats. Rossi is not seeking public money, therefore he only needs to meet more reasonable/efficient/sane engineering standards. People who love top down control (because they are better at politics rather than results) always try to slow down their competition by nit-picking the process rather than focusing on the big picture — the end result. That is why they hate researchers that avoid public funding. Therefore the scientific bureaucrats constructed the patent catch-22: new inventions need to be peer reviewed before getting a parent, but then the inventor risks someone stealing his invention without any legal protections… I hope Rossi is able to beat this catch-22, he’s been able to beat the odds so far. Also, rossi’s petro dragon was not a scam, it is a process that new startups are using to convert carbon based materials to bio-diesel (now that rossi’s patent has expired) — rossi’s mistake with petro dragon is that he underestimated the effort it would take to scale up his production, therefore the waste material he took in from customers sat too long and began to slowly leak. Rossi also didn’t account for the Italian mob disliking the potential competition of Rossi in the waste disposal business, which slowed him down in court and every other step.

          • rolando

            Can you please point out which bit in the report does not fulfill standard scientific requirements?

    • Paul Hunt

      The guys at MFMP have ideas how to wrap a water calorimeter around the hotcat. It would be great if they got a chance.

      • fortyniner

        The HT2 prototype comes with a flange, presumably so it can be bolted to a box heater or boiler – or to an insulated tank of water. I suspect that Rossi may already be preparing for water calorimetry, if he hasn’t already done it.

        The question is, how much heat can be extracted from the reactor by active cooling before the LENR reaction is quenched, or conversely, how much additional electrical power would need to be supplied to maintain the reaction under these circumstances.

    • Warthog

      Calorimetry WAS done, just differently than has previously been used in LENR. Determination of heat losses by radiation and convection through thermal imaging is perfectly well understood and used daily around the world. The high operating temperature and heat output simply makes it possible to do calorimetry in this fashion. Previously the heat output and temperature differences were tiny, so more sensitive means of measurement were required. Krivit is technologically illiterate and is making a fool of himself with these sorts of comments.

    • Omega Z

      Stevie Brooks

      They ran a dummy test. Using the same Hot-Cat with the Ni/H charge removed.
      It did not produce excess power.

  • Kim

    This was posted as a line item at Before it’s News web site

    “Rossi LENR convinces some but many are not convinced”

    Should this not Read:

    Rossi LENR convinces many but some are not convinced.

    Respect
    Kim

    • Barry

      Time to leave the skeptics behind. We can only send them so many boats and helicopters (old joke).

      • fortyniner

        I wish we could, but they are still popping up all over the place with fake quibbles about emissivity and input power measurement, or outright accusations of fra*d, which need to be countered for the sake of new readers.

        • Dickyaesta

          Peter, returning a moment to you being unable to use your former self(PeterRoe) here.

          I was trying to get rid of the somewhat sinister eye in my posts and I used another email-dir with the same user name and le voila my post went into cyberspace and has not been heard from since.

          So probably that is what happened to your Peter Roe. Cheers we will get used to the new one as well, what counts is your presence, which is much appreciated in these quarters. THX

          • fortyniner

            That’s very kind, thank you.

            I agree that it is likely that using different email addresses seems to be the ‘trigger’ that got my previous tag blocked. It’s not a problem – I use (and have used for some time) the ‘fortyniner’ tag elsewhere. I’ll just have to try a bit harder to remember which email address I should be using, to stop this one going the same way!

            Re. the icon, if you click on the black tag at the top right, you will get a drop down menu that will allow you to log in to your account, where you can delete the icon if you want.

          • fortyniner

            Ah – I’ve just clicked on the tab and then on ‘Edit my profile’, but the ‘Profile’ link no longer seems to allow changes, so please ignore my final paragraph.

    • Roger Bird

      It should read: “Rossi’s E-Cat convinces some, but some are still too stupid to look at the evidence.”

  • Omar Gomez

    Next phase products to the market rossi have a slim time frame and I hope they know it. 12 to 18 months to flood the market.

    Power generators from 5 to 25kw and 50 to 250kw. Thats where the money is. Not in home heaters. No in MW units.

    If it really works as the report said no matter the patents or certifications. So many things in the world would change. Most of the people here dont have an idea to live without electricity and the boost it will provide to poor countries.

    • Mcloki

      That’s exactly it. Strap these thins onto electrical generating turbines of all sizes and start taking pre orders. Work with Siemens or Philips.

    • MStone

      No way this gets to personal use, other than special application, for a long time.

      If the government is smart, cough, it will constructively nationalize the energy sector to unfluck the debt crisis. It would work like this. Energy prices are locked in at a reasonable rate…say like now. And gasoline’esqe prices are locked in at, say, 2 dollars a gallon. Now…e-cat energy is nearly free. 500 billion a year spent on energy in the US in general. Another 500 billion a year spent on gasoline. Thats constructively a trillion dollar a year tax without dramatically changing our way of life right now. So, you fix global warming, the energy crisis, and the debt crisis in about 20 years without any major shifts in living standards by leveraging this new technology. Impressive, No?

      • Roger Bird

        Any time one proposes government price controls it is not impressive.

      • Owen

        Great idea. Let’s send another trillion to the global banksters and government scammers. That should fix everything.

  • palace planetarian

    The development of the E-Cat is a near miracle considering it has happened outside the normal mechanisms of modern science. So, he perseveres and succeeds, sort of, without a a chance for a patent. Of course that is because of a “Catch 21” that is are fororiginal, new scientific and technical creations. But, only as long as they can be understood by standard, consensus, conventional science, certainly by anything revolutionary.

    So Rossi, is caught trying to be Thomsd Edison without any real protection for his intellectual proprrty. That is, even if it can save the world. For those who like me are not invested in the old order and are willing to see Rossi as crefitable, the question is what can we do?

    The answer is, put the E-Cat and the third party team in front of the public. If Rossi continues to refuse any public demonstrstion until some one else approves. Then bring the Third party team to Washington for a press conference hosted by Mark Gibbs and Assoc. At Forbes. It would help to create a US Non-profit corp or find one that already exists willing to raise enough money to make it attractive for all concerned to participate including some of the other LENR stars. The key is paying the third party team enough to justify confronting the inevitable attacks they will face. Will they and the E-Cat survive? In the absence of a public demonstration, especially one by a satisfied customer, it is probably the best that be done for now.

    • Andrew Macleod

      I recall someone else did this with a different invention. Joseph Papp’s Noble Gas Engine. During the public demonstration an overseer thought he saw some trickery so he unplugged something. Papp was furious and told him that was dangerous and to plug it back in…… Well he didn’t and the device exploded killing and hurting onlookers.

      • Andrew Macleod

        Well my account was a little off but here’s the story by
        Eugene F. Mallove. http://www.infinite-energy.com/iemagazine/issue51/papp.html

        • palace planetarian

          That demonstrstion is not like what I proposed. I proposed a demonstrstion of a working e-cat presented by a satisfied customer. The problem is that the opposition will discredit the third party report because it is not peer reviewed and essentially Rossi is presenting a magic black box that no one understands running on a secret recipe. That can only be countered if Rossi prevents complete acess by a demonstration of its value e.g. heating a factory or providing electricity to a village. Then anyone can see that the device works with minimal unput and no measureable release of radiation while Rossirights could be protected.

        • palace planetarian

          That demonstrstion is not like what I proposed. I proposed a demonstrstion of a working e-cat presented by a satisfied customer. The problem is that the opposition will discredit the third party report because it is not peer reviewed and essentially Rossi is presenting a magic black box that no one understands running on a secret recipe. That can only be counteredby a demonstration by someone, a customer, other than Rossi. An effective E-Cat demo might be heating a factory or providing electricity to a village. Exterior access could be available to anyone. So it could be determined that the device works with minimal unput and no measureable release of radiation while Rossirights could be protected.

          • palace planetarian

            A. Rosdi is a heroic technically and scientifically savy individual inventor entrepreneur, to me. He is a living example that anyone who claims the consensus scientific understanding is theone and only truth is actuslly betrsying science. Empirical science is based an a skeptical philosophy that settled science only reflects our best current understanding and can always be replaced by an updated, more accurate view. So, a real empirical scientidt would acknowledge the possibility that it was possible that a new and better energy source could have been found outside any current system. That is if can be shown to work for real, uncorrupted customers. As long as the E-Cat is a black box with a secret recipe, whether I like it or not, Rossi is going to need a customer only interested in what is good for that customer to show that it works and is safe.

          • palace planetarian

            The members of the third party evaluators are suffering attcks on thier veracity, integrity and academic qualifications. They need to defend themselves to protect their family and academic standing and they need to do it in the USA.

            Bill Wood

  • V.p.S.

    Rossi said it once and many people on this forum basically agreed – the only E-Cat evidence good enough for the breakthrough on a huge scale will be a working commercial installation of the E-Cat open to the public. Now, I already mentioned it earlier on the forum: for the ECW readers from Germany, Switzerland or Austria (or may be even northern Italy / southern France) there is a great chance to help it happen. There is a running joint crowdfunding project of the Swiss and German E-Cat licensees that targets to collect enough funds for buying an industrial E-Cat and to install it in some heat consuming factory in the Switzerland. The E-Cat itself will be owned by the small investors participating in the crowdfunding project, but the factory owner will also invest slightly less than a half of the E-Cat price and will agree to open the installation place to the investors/owners of the E-Cat.

    Now, the good news are:
    – currently almost 300 kEUR of the target 600 kEUR has been already pledged
    – many investors were ready to double the pledge if there would be a positive 3rd party report
    – Rossi knows about this project and agreed to support it (organisationally/logistically)

    The last issue of the Swiss .NET journal organizing and promoting this project, reports on the progress: http://www.borderlands.de/net_pdf/NET0313S41.pdf (includes a link to the participants registration form)

    The way I see it, if this crowdfunding project succeeds, then with the Rossi’s support we may see already 4-5 months later a public E-Cat installation. As for other Leonardo corp. customers, nobody knows, how long will it take for them to issue a press release. May be half a year, may be a year. The photos from the last delivery were blocked by the customer and may never show up until the official press release.

    To Admin / Frank: may be you’d consider this worthy to put into a separate thread to attract more attention.

  • clovis

    Hi,Frank,
    I like this new idea, heck we have connections now,smile.
    WE NEED SOMETHING BIG, an attention getter, i’m sure we can come up with something good, with the talent we have in here and around the blog trail, we could do something, like a information bomb, lol, file a law suit against some one for suppression, that would do it,

  • palace planetarian

    The National Press club in Washington, DC USA would be a grest place for a press conference. C-SPAN the commercial free/but privately funded TV network of record would gladly make the audio and video availablefor free and available on the internet indefinitely. Hundreds of news organizations from around the world frequent the press club and an infinite variety of topics are presented there in open, fair forums.

    It would be nice if Rossi would attend, name his customer and get an endorsement describing the wonders the E-Cat is performing. Then he could finsncing for a global auction, still respecting the rights of those who bought territories. The resulting flood of cash for E-Cats would solve his money prolems and trsnsform the world.

    Absent that, the third party report is a step that has answered many of my questions but still left others. That is why bringing the thirparty team to Washington is the intermediate step. All the progress is still being ignored. This is an effective way to break through the noise to be heard and get the attention of those who who still refuse to take Rossi seriously.

    Without demonstrated success in public where all possble fraud or error hss been eliminated to the satisfaction of those that matter progress will continue to be slow. It is time for something different like presenting the third party testers and other experts at the National Press Club in Wadhington in a Forbes Inc. Dponsored forum.

  • Alex

    Raise money for a commercial during prime time Thursday night just before the nightly News. Make it about the possible uses, and about Energy independence.

  • pachu on Xperia

    As far I can guess the next interesting event is the DGT live demo at niweek in august.The funny thing is that maybe the paper boosts interest in the competitors.

    Also DGT has several test results stored in NDAs I’m waiting some move from them.

  • Roger Bird

    I guarantee that saying hurtful things at people who disagree with us will harm our cause. This will merely create more barriers in their minds. This is a mental crusade. Some people will be won over by our explaining things to them. Some will be won over by showing them tests and demos. Some will be won over by PhD physicists talking up the E-Cat and LENR. Some will need to see it for themselves. NO ONE will be won over by calling them stupid, patho-skeptic, paid shills of Big Oil or any other malicious names. If you want to promote the E-Cat and LENR in general, you must be considerate of other people’s feelings and assume that they are doing the best that they are able to understand.

    [I am just as guilty as anyone else of not doing this.]

    • Bob

      I agree.
      Even the dull and ignorant can have a point of view, and sometimes it just happens that in spite of their dullness and apparent ignorance, they are right.
      If a point of view is disagreed with, then the right thing to do is explain why you think they are wrong.
      If the post is clearly designed to be provocative then simply read it, smile and then ignore it.
      Even the provocative posts can be instructive in that they are a window into some people’s thinking.

      • MK

        I partially aggree.
        As long as the posting is done in opennes and without maliciousness, its OK.
        Some postings are just placed to provoke or destruct.
        It is difficult to clearly detect these. BUT: ecatnews had been inactive for some time just because of these postings.
        So I feel that some self protection is needed sometimes, and somebody clearly behaving like a troll (though maybe even if he is none) needs to be removed to keep the forum working.

    • freethinker

      In the best of worlds you are right.

      But this possibly not the best of worlds. There are indeed people who are paid money to express opinions on the internet, regardless if they themselves share that opinion. Shills or whatever name you would like to call them. There are also people who are pathological skeptics, as there are blind believers. It all depends what side you are looking from.

      If such people, being skillfull in verbalising their opinion, they will cause a lot of harm. People casually visiting sites for information may be negatively influenced, if there are no voices that go against.

      With that said, I agree, a low key is better, but realize that long threads with relentless factual arguing with these people will only further their cause (and sometimes wallet), strenghten their negative believes (that
      you cant really change anyway).

      Sometimes spelling it out is better than beating around the bush.

      This is not over yet.

  • astralprojectee

    Why do we need to covert people that are hard headed. Don’t waste your time. Just wait until Rossi is selling e-cats. There is a little benefit to trying to convert even open minded people probably. If Rossi has what he says he has, then I am sure he will have little problem selling it, or promoting it once he starts actually selling the e-cats.

    I know Frank didn’t want to hear that.

  • Sergio

    Mainstream is picking it up definitely, register just went public;
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/05/22/e_cat_test_claims_success_yet_again/

    • artefact

      It seems no one in the comments read the report.

      • R101

        What a bunch of trolls 🙁

      • fortyniner

        That right – the comments are uninformed and mostly based on misunderstandings and incorrect assumptions. As usual.

        • Roger Bird

          Then, since the comment section is opened to everyone, it is our job to correct them, nicely. Stop bitching and get to work.

      • Owen

        Those are some of the stupidest comments I’ve ever seen. Seriously, they sound brain damaged. Right up there with YouTube comments.

  • Robyn Wyrick

    I think, if news organizations are interested in keeping out of this story, they do so at little professional peril. There is little to check bad journalism.

    However, noting New Energy Times’ recent story – didn’t want to give the satisfaction of linking to it – “Rossi Manipulates Academics to Create Illusion of Independent Test” – it just comes off as bizarre.

    Rossi must have mystical powers to manipulate these researchers. Somehow this lone man, to no apparent material gain, and with no apparent victim to his fraud, has manipulated seven+ scientists (credentialed scientists, unlike the blogger at NET) into believing they were being independent. When in actuality they are paid and mind-controlled by Rossi.

    Because Rossi is Darth Vader.

    So, unless there is a valid critique of the methods of the researchers, Rossi’s critics will ignore the independent report, or they will concoct a conspiracy theory of their own.

    Mostly it has been silence. Except Gibbs at Forbes, no major publication has said a word. Perhaps they are doing a careful review. That is the best that can be hoped for on that front.

    The next stage for Rossi, as he has asserted continually, has to be production. I see little to be gained through continued nods to academia.

    For those of us who have followed this story, besides moral support, and the occasional good idea posted on JONP, I don’t think we make much of a difference. I think Rossi has been vindicated. Someone else thinks not. It doesn’t much matter, as far as the E-Cat is concerned.

    I think our best path is to support the efforts of the MFMP. Rossi is on a different path. The folks at MFMP are seeking an open source approach, and individuals can contribute. That’s my thought currently.

    Oh, except, “da.mn, those hot cat photos are exciting!”

  • DaPhys

    I read the report again and this document brings more questions than answers. It is known that the fuel in the e-cat is exclusively based on the Ni-62 isotope. Can someone confirm that the production of Ni-62 requires much energy? I guess that Ni-62 is produced via chemical separation based on mass differences, a process known to consume less than reactors or accelerators, but most probably far from negligible. Therefore I’m puzzled that the energy used to produce the fuel was not taken into account in the calculation made by the experts. Thank you for any answers.

    • What if

      About $10 a charge.

  • RenzoB
    • artefact

      The same error like with P&F:

      “3.Place a gamma-ray detector around the device. Given the lack of shielding and the energies involved in nuclear reactions, gamma-rays should be copious and easy to detect.

      • AB

        They are judging the claim according to theory, not the experiment.

        • artefact

          Yes, according to existing theory where LENR does not work…

  • RenzoB

    article in italian with some questions to prof Levi
    http://it.ibtimes.com/articles/49127/20130521/fusione-fredda-e-cat-andrea-rossi.htm

    IBTimes contacted Giuseppe Levi, nuclear physicist at the University of Bologna and one of the signers of the study. “As stated in the article, we are faced with a non-conventional source of energy” – the researcher said.

    Professor Levi praised the transparency with which eng. Rossi has allowed him and other scholars to test: “We have been able to operate in complete autonomy and freedom. From the outset it was clear that we could publish the results whatever they were.”

    On the nature of the reaction that allows the E-Cat to work prof Levi has reiterated that it is not a proper chemical or nuclear reaction: “Exactly. Definitely not chemical in nature. – Levi said- The absence of radiation makes us say that if it is a nuclear power it is still new in nature from those known. ”

    With regard to the production of energy the results of the test are impressive and Professor Levi said: “These data are contained in the publication. Placing yourself in the most conservative case you have energy density ten times greater than conventional ones. But this certainly an extreme understatement. Values ​​are published in the text which are probably more realistic. ”

    Finally, at our specific question, if it considers that the E-Cat could revolutionize the energy production, prof Levi responded with a terse “Yes, without doubt.”

    • artefact

      Wow ( 😉 )

    • evleer

      And once again: Wow

  • andreiko

    Multinational companies are the preferred way for the e-cats and not politics.It seems to me makes sense at multinational companies that qualify for the further exploitation of the e-cats sharp questions to ask and the answers of these parties to deposit on this site.Science journalists take your accountability to humanity!

  • georgehants

    From Newser
    Inventor: I’ve Cracked Cold Fusion
    Hold your applause: Paper has not been peer-reviewed
    http://www.newser.com/story/168291/inventor-ive-cracked-cold-fusion.html

  • georgehants

    From Next Big Future.
    Rossi LENR convinces some but many are not convinced and say it is a fraud
    http://nextbigfuture.com/2013/05/rossi-lenr-convinces-some-but-many-are.html

  • Thomas M

    Would it not be the best way to show that it works to build a self-contained system with some sort of generator that can covert the heat produced from the e-cat to electricity and self loop the system?
    Then people can see the system work and don’t need to see inside of the e-cat and control box.

    • fortyniner

      Unfortunately there is no combination of thermal-electric conversion and energy storage that would make this possible with a COP of under 6 (or of 2.5 in the case of the H2 type).

  • John Littlemist

    Finnish newspaper “Tekniikka & Talous” (Technology & Economy) covers the 3rd party report:

    http://www.tekniikkatalous.fi/innovaatiot/article903328.ece

    Tekniikka & Talous and Ny Teknik have the same publisher, Talentum corporation.

  • R101

    I’ve submitted a “Tip Off” to ABC news (Australian). It would be good if any other Australians on here could do likewise.

    To do so clicky here: http://www.abc.net.au/news/contact/

    • Linda

      Somebody should call 60 Minutes.

      • stuey81

        someone should contact ACA, 60 minutes, SBS, hopefully one of them picks up the story

  • Andrew Macleod

    Krivit updated his debunking attempt. [May 21, 1603: Article updated to include question and answer about who built the reactor.]. Proof that he is leaving out portions of the q&a that don’t help what he is trying to portray. He is also foaming at the mouth so much he now thinks the year is 1603.

    • Timar

      LOL!

    • artefact

      If he gets paid for that it must be a lot of money.

    • clovis

      +1

  • Pekka Janhunen

    A positive article in Finnish “Tekniikka ja Talous” (Technology and Economy) entitled “Cold fusion device of an Italian inventor amazes scientists”. It’s a bit similar magazine than the Swedish NyTeknik. Most Finnish engineers read it because it’s included in their trade union membership. http://www.tekniikkatalous.fi/innovaatiot/italialaisen+keksijan+kylmafuusiolaite+allistyttaa+tutkijoita/a903328

    • John Littlemist

      Let’s see if my provocative ITER comment on that article passes the moderation.

  • Ivan

    Create a project on kickstarter. 1kk for testing.

    Create an open test with live stream and 3rd party specialists to demonstrate it’s real.

    Create a project on Kickstarter. 2kkk for production purposes.

    Become rich as f*** and give free energy for everybody.

  • V.p.S.

    // Looks like my comment was lost in the moderation, trying again…

    Rossi said it once and many people on this forum basically agreed – the only E-Cat evidence good enough for the breakthrough on a huge scale will be a working commercial installation of the E-Cat open to the public. Now, I already mentioned it earlier on the forum: for the ECW readers from Germany, Switzerland or Austria (or may be even northern Italy / southern France) there is a great chance to help it happen. There is a running joint crowdfunding project of the Swiss and German E-Cat licensees that targets to collect enough funds for buying an industrial E-Cat and to install it in some heat consuming factory in the Switzerland. The E-Cat itself will be owned by the small investors participating in the crowdfunding project, but the factory owner will also invest slightly less than a half of the E-Cat price and will agree to open the installation place to the investors/owners of the E-Cat.

    Now, the good news are:
    – currently almost 300 kEUR of the target 600 kEUR has been already pledged
    – many investors were ready to double the pledge if there would be a positive 3rd party report
    – Rossi knows about this project and agreed to support it (organisationally/logistically)

    The last issue of the Swiss .NET journal organizing and promoting this project, reports on the progress: http://www.borderlands.de/net_pdf/NET0313S41.pdf (includes a link to the participants registration form)

    The way I see it, if this crowdfunding project succeeds, then with the Rossi’s support we may see already 4-5 months later a public E-Cat installation. As for other Leonardo corp. customers, nobody knows, how long will it take for them to issue a press release. May be half a year, may be a year. The photos from the last delivery were blocked by the customer and may never show up until the official press release.

    To Admin / Frank: may be you’d consider this worthy to put into a separate thread to attract more attention.

    • Thanks VPS — I am actively looking into ways to do something like this.

  • kasom

    If it were really up to have further proofs for the public, I think the US Partner would be in the role of doing marketing to prepare the market for the products they want to sell in the near future.

    One could just do something remarkable an talk about, the press will catch it up. Guerilla marketing of larger scale….

    Only one idea for example: Put one or more e-Tigers in ssm into the circulation/heating unit of a really big swimmingpool perhaps this at NASA Houston

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/NASA_Neutral_Buoyancy_Laboratory_Panorama.jpg

    23 million liters of water to heat, nobody will talk about meassuring tolerances any longer.

    I’m quite sure, everybody finds another example in his/her wildest dreams.

  • Nick Pourmi

    Important notice:
    The report acknowledges: ”In that experiment the device was destroyed in course of experimental run, when the steel cylinder containing the active charge overheated and melted. … The resistor coils were run at about 1 kW”.
    Is it possible, under the known physics laws, for such a steel cylinder to melt from only the electrical input of 1 kW?
    If NO, then this could be taken as an indirect proof of an unknown energy (reaction).

    • Roger Bird

      I have dealt with that level of wattage twice recently in order cut down my electric bill. Our clothes dryer and the drying element in our dish washer use roughly that much, like 1.2 kW. There is NO WAY that 1 kW could melt a steel cylinder the size of what we have seen. I suppose if the steel cylinder was much, much smaller, perhaps; like 3 inches by 1 inch. This is why I have been trying to get people to understand that there were 3 tests, not two, and all three tests were successful.

    • stuey81

      where are the pictures of the melted hot cat? all i saw was a glowing hot ecat?