Draft Proposal from the MFMP includes Funding 1 MW E-Cat Plant Purchase

The 3rd Party E-Cat report has generated a lot of interest since its publication this week, and there are many people who are eager for more information and further verification. I have been in conversation with members of the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project (MFMP) this week about the possibility of raising funds to purchase a 1 MW E-Cat low temperature plant (the only model on the market at the moment) that can be truly independently tested, visited by the public, and put to work in an open and transparent way.

Below is a draft proposal that the MFMP has developed and is seeking input from the public about the idea. Please examine the document and provide any feedback you think will be useful. All thoughtful suggestions and ideas will be carefully considered. 

E-Cat World is committed to providing support to a well-developed fundraising effort like this to purchase an E-Cat plant that can be demonstrated to the public in a clear and open way.

About the MFMP

The Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project (MFMP) is run by Quantum Heat C.I.C. which is legally a non-profit Community Interest Company registered in the United Kingdom. The directors cannot receive a dividend and if the company is dissolved, assets are legally required to be liquidated with proceeds to be donated to the international charity “Save the Children”. Futher information can be found at www.quantumheat.org

It has 3 aims:

  • Show to the world there is a new practical primary energy source we call the New Fire
  • Once shown, help develop peoples understanding of what the New Fire is
  • Help promote the development and uptake of the New Fire in all its various guises

New potential proposal to promote wide acceptance of the 1 MW low temperature E-Cat unit and ongoing income for open research

We are finally resolving the last elements of our Kickstarter campaign ready for launch. It currently has a base fundraising target of £50,000 and ‘stretch’ goals of £150,000 and £350,000 to raise funds to conclude reactor designs and distribute experiments broadly. Just so everybody understands, a stretch goal is when all of the core fundraising has been achieved so there would be no risk of our core work being not funded and the final stretch goal of buying a plant would only activate if the £1.5m figure was achieved.

Earlier in the year, our proposed plan was to have a final stretch goal to purchase a 1 MW reactor, but this was not favorably received when we intially brought it up so we removed it.  There was a number of concerns with the original proposal. Key examples of this were that some people were not sure if E-Cat technology was real, and some preferred excess money to be put towards further open source research.

Now, in the light of the recent E-Cat report and the amount of interest it has generated, we are considering putting in a final stretch goal of £1.5m to fund the purchase of a 1 M E-Cat plant. This goal would only activate if the fundraising goal £1.5m figure was achieved.

The New Proposal

Stretch Goal 3: If we can raise over £1,500,000 we will seek to purchase a 1 MW low temperature E-Cat plant from Andrea Rossi, install it at a reputable university where it can operate and be visited for a period of at least 6 months, then transfer it to a permanent site where the heat can be put to good use in return for a fee. Revenues from the heat sold will flow back to the project as ongoing funding for the MFMP’s core mission.

The arrangement being suggested is as follows:

  • Raise money as stretch goal in the current campaign / or in a later Kickstarter campaign.
  • Send deposit (approx 1/3 of the total cost) to Rossi as commitment fee and to allow the plant to be built.
  • After the plant is built, perform acceptance testing at Rossi’s premises.
  • If testing is acceptable, ship plant immediately to a qualified, fully independent university, probably in Europe.
  • The university will be paid to host a performance and endurance test for at least 6 months, fully respecting Rossi’s IP in the process. We would want to publish power in and power out as a minimum and would supply university with equipment and expertise.
  • Unit would then be shipped to a suitable permanent site, for example, a community heat supply. The sale of energy to those benefiting from the heat may generate between €100k and €200k income per year for ongoing MFMP research.
  • There would be pledge rewards in the Kickstarter campaign for security-checked people to able to visit the unit at either site, or people could pay for visits. Paid visits would raise on-going revenue for MFMP.

Key benefits

  • If final stretch goal not met, all extra money raised goes to open LENR research by the MFMP
  • If stretch goal met but unit not delivered of fails to work – all money goes to open LENR research by the MFMP
  • If the goal is met and the unit works it will be tested by a fully independent body, settling all debate, making all key data available to the public
  • The public will be able to visit the plantand see it working
  • It will provide ongoing income for MFMP ongoing research
  • Jim

    How many propeller heads does it take to plug in a LENR-powered light bulb?

    Apparently somewhere between 15,000 to 150,000 at $10 to $100 each.

    Needs an angel. Where do you find an angel that has $1.5M to indirectly promote world-changing breakthrough electrical power generation? Maybe someone who wants to put electric cars on the road, like Elon Musk. Or Shai Agassi; I understand he’s between jobs.

    How many degrees of separation are there between ecatworld contributors and such angels?

    • Linda

      No, sorry Jim, we need to keep this open and democratic.

      The greatest risk to the future of the eCat is that some greedy capitalist may simply buy up the rights, or otherwise lock up the IP. I am not refering to the people you named, who are possibly ok as individuals – I’m saying the whole “angel funding process” is frought with peril.

      It is unbelievable the amount of damage these greedy people and their lawyers can do to even the most obviously good and worthwile project. The eCat is the great hope of humanity. The very idea that capitalism, which is based entirely on greed, self-interest and maximal exploitation could somehow forget its scorpion nature and produce an altruistic outcome is, well… not realistic.

      The MFMP guys are right. It needs to be crowd-sourced.

      • Jim


        While I respect your clarity and moral perspective…

        Everything real has a context consisting of an integrated network of causes and effects. If you can’t account for that total network then the phenomena you point to is not real.

        “The very idea that capitalism, which is based entirely on greed, self-interest and maximal exploitation could somehow forget its scorpion nature and produce an altruistic outcome is, well… not realistic.”

        Tell that to the hundreds of millions of Chinese who were lifted out of poverty in the last 20 years because of greedy capitalists, or the hundreds of millions of Indians who are trapped in poverty because of greedy socialists backed by greedy feudalists.

        Bill Gates and Warren Buffet, putting most of their wealth (what, total of $40B+?) in the service of philanthropy..greedy capitalists?

        I’m confident there is some “greedy capitalists” out there who can spare $1.5M and let MFMP run with it, no strings attached…

        (and on to the next point)

        …even if it isn’t the most fiscally effective way to advance LENR. It is *a* way. And I can’t think of a better one at the moment. MFMP is at least close to the tip of the spear, with good connections and low operating overhead. Giving it to a University department would see it vanish in administrative salaries and facilities costs. Giving it to a start up would REALLY bury it.

        • Linda

          Hi Jim, thank you for your interesting reply.

          Often the Chinese are citing as a Capitalist success story, but seldim is the full story told, of corrupt officialdom, and horrific environmental devastation. Have you been to Beijing lately? I ask you, at what price prosperity?

          Arguing from instances is a poor substitute for arguing from Principle. LENR is essential to our survival as a species because rampant greed and self-interest has destroyed our environment. In its favor, even Marx would admit that Capitalism has alleviated a lot of human suffering. But the toxin that cures your cancer will kill you if you continue to take it once you have gone into remission.

          It is time for humanity to learn a better way, one that does not proceed from or result in ever greater accumulation of power by selfish elites at the expense of the rest of humanity.

          We will either learn a more “social” way of doing open, ethical science and technology, for the good of all, or quite simply, we will drown in our own effluent.

          • Roger Bird

            It does no good to accuse rich and powerful people of being greedy and ego-centric if we ourselves are greedy and ego-centric. Those who are without sin are invited to throw the first stone. A better world starts with oneself. I myself am so egotistical and opinionated that kum ba ya is most likely outside of my capacities for getting along with people. That is why my social life is almost exclusively via the Internet.

            The E-Cat will change the structure of society, but it will do exactly ZERO for the human heart. What is your solution for reducing greed and egotism in the world? Mine is meditation, prayer, and selfless service. And we can’t foist those solutions onto other people.

          • AlainCo

            theer is a very interesting section in “antifragile” of nassim nicholas taleb about the accusation of greed, or unpreparedness…
            for taleb it is false accusation.
            problem is too much planning, too much false confidence in prediction and risk computation…

            people should have strategies that benefit from unexpected, and not suffer from it… they should act to take options, and choose to take the option when it is good…

            his book is bloody

      • Ted-X

        The democratic capitalism is the best economical system, but…
        it needs regulations, and many of them. Everyone agrees, I hope, that formation of monopolies is bad; indeed, they are illegal in most democratic countries. After the great depression, the fastest economic growth was in the most rigidly regulated economy: controlled prices and wages, profit no more than 6% (invest or pay excess as a tax), banks could not foreclose on farmers, small businesses were supported. This was done right. Nearly everything else that this specific country did was terribly wrong. So, there are ways to make capitalism “with a human face”, at least for a while and the governments sometimes have enough power to do the right things.

        • Linda

          Good comment Ted 🙂

        • Roger Bird

          Which country was that?

    • Roger Bird

      How about Dick Smith? Isn’t he an angel?

      • freethinker

        He might have the dough, but the angel part I am so sure about… 😉

      • Allan Shura

        Perhaps Sir Richard Branson could make this fly.

        NASA is interested.

      • GreenWin

        Smith is a fraud as has been amply pointed out.

        • NJT

          He is very silent now that his hand has been called. I doubt if he will make the call…

          So much for Mr. Dick Smith

  • Linda

    That is an excellent plan. Sometimes the only way forward is to take a risk and just do it.

    • Bob Greenyer


      It is a HUGE risk with our followers, something that we were reticent to even suggest the proposal. But we need to at least put the idea out there and it is stimulating some evaluation and alternatives which is good.

      I think we need to take a vote on this – and really consider the strength of the message in the outcome.

      • Linda

        I’ll put money into it, if the IP license is open enough, and non-proprietary. Also, I think the process needs to be optimised for speed and reproducibility of variations. Again, have a look at the Bergius process for potential catalysts.

        Maybe I’m mistaken, but I think a bit too much time was spent on Celani’s work, when he had not actually demonstrated solid results. Not sure.

        Please publish your proposed experimental methodology as part of your project plan.

  • theBuckWheat

    This should enable an interesting comparison and ideological revelation. How many ardent advocates of green energy such as bird-shredding wind turbines, and sunny-day solar power will drop their capital-intensive eco-follies in favor of LENR technology like e-Cat?

    So, far? Crickets chirping.

    • GreenWin

      Which points to the fact that the “advocates” don’t really care about environment or conservation. They use green as a ruse to demand obedience to their social vision – one where there is never enough and people must constantly atone for their “sins.”

      All that ends when the truth is revealed – there IS enough for everyone; everyone can have a decent standard of living once the message is heard. And this abundant new form of energy is widespread. 🙂

      • NJT

        I usually like and agree with your comments, but please do not be so quick to judge all of us with your hurtful quotations such as “advocates” (Meaning Greenies) don’t really care about environment or conservation”. You may be surprised! I and many of my fellowmen (greenies) whom are “advocates” support our planet earth for us and our future humankind and do support this “New Fire” development and research – myself particularly. LENR can hopefully and will point the way soon to keeping our planet habitable…

        • GreenWin

          NJT, by “advocate” I implicitly mean purported tree huggers who dismiss alternatives like LENR out of hand. You sir, do not fit that definition IMO. But there is a disturbing resistance from places like WWF, and Sierra (I have worked for both) specifically to Rossi, CF and the LENR technology.

          It boils down to “invented here” competition. Big green had hoped to hook the world of carbon credit schemes. But for carbon credit to work, carbon must remain the dominant energy source. See where that leads??

          George N, you are correct. And sometimes it is easy to forget that opposing paths can lead to the same home.

      • George N

        GreenWin, you cut to the core of the issue too quickly! We must recognize that different people reach the same final conclusions on opposite opposing paths!

  • Roger Bird

    I just had a thought, and since I am sooooo old, I thought I better write it down and post it before I forget. Why not run an E-Cat to meltdown with just a car battery or some other large battery. Video it, showing no connection to the mains (as you Brits like to say). I don’t know if a car battery would have enough energy to do that. To show an E-Cat with no connection to the mains while putting out substantial energy would be very convincing. Then put that video on YouTube.

    • daniel maris

      I was proposing on the previous thread that an testers need to use their own generator, so yes I agree.

      But – we are back to the paradox that Rossi could have posted persuasive evidence by now if he wanted to. It’s almost as if he is playing the market…doing enough to generate interest but also enough to deter general acceptance. I am not saying that is his plan, but that appears to the effect of his actions.

      • Omega Z


        I Suspect that is exactly his plan.
        Indisputable results would lead to all his competitors reaping huge Financial & Intellectual support.

        And from Rossi’s point of View this is a competition. And from his point of view, Much of what he says or does begins to make sense.

    • Bob Greenyer

      That is a good suggestion, one we would like to see ourselves.

    • Pedro

      There is no test that will be accepted as final proof because the sceptics will always find ways to discredit the test. Hidden wires, induction, alliens… You name it. Forget doing a better test… The MFMP approach is the only convincing one. That having been said however, I don’t expect AR to play along with it… too much risc his IP get’s unrevealed.

  • Roger Bird

    And that reminds me. Why haven’t the test team put videos of the test on YouTube yet?

  • Al S

    Just where are the tax collecting entities burying their collective skulls? I believe it’s now time for the legislative bodies of nation states to direct (make law) Governments to research ‘new fire.’ No longer can entrenched scientific stubbornness dissuade investigations, like what happened with the advent of “Cold Fusion.” The swell of open knowledge will not only necessitate public funding, but its success will prove how overreaching corporate lobbying is. Happy paradigm time, one and all.

    • Allan Shura

      The response from the British government was that although they
      acknowledge support to the energy industry they have not received
      specific proposals from cold fusion / LENR groups.

    • Bob Greenyer

      We wish that it was not necessary to create a grass roots movement to make this happen, but actually, with career and/or bought politicians running the show, it appears that anything genuinely new has to happen in this way now. Thankfully the internet allows this to happen.

  • bobeson

    How dreadful. This week went from uplifting to discouraging all too quickly.

    • NJT

      Please explain why the long face?

    • freethinker

      in what way has it become discouraging?

      • bobeson

        First, the report of Levi et al was tremendously inspiring to me personally. I was not much surprised by the results; I’ve felt sufficient cause to presume that Rossi has some kind of working reactor since the initial Essen/Kullander demonstration. Rather, I was pleased that a well-done independent study had at last been released which seems to contain all that a reasonable person would need to conclude that a useful means of harnessing LENR has been shown to exist. I expected opposition from the usual places, but when reflexive, conjecture-dominated criticisms with seemingly little rational basis started coming from all quarters, including the MFMP, I was taken aback much further than I was prepared to be.

        I had already been wrestling a bit with the disclosure that the HUGnet modules being actively developed for the MFMP project are at least potentially intended to be for-profit intellectual property of HUG. With my years of product development experience, I certainly know how much work it takes to produce reliable hardware and software, and I can respect the desire for these ambitious, hardworking folks to reap the fruits of their labors. However, the subtle but conflicting interplay of interests, HUG vs. MFMP, already seems to be taking a serious toll on the results they are able to produce, and I fear this is likely to continue to worsen so long as they remain committed to their present course of product development.

        Now I read here, for the first time, that they are intending to go back to working with Rossi, possibly including the expenditure of MFMP funds to Rossi. I began my active participation with MFMP subsequent to explicit discussion about this matter, and only after I read a number of assurances that they would not be involved in funding Rossi. And now, this appears to no longer be true, much to my surprise. I don’t care much for the feelings that result from this development.

        I feel an urgent sense of moral obligation to do all that I reasonably can to make the transformation to LENR power occur worldwide as rapidly as possible, in order to spare as much needless human suffering as possible. I’m back to feeling somewhat bewildered as to how to go about accomplishing this, I’m afraid. I really detest the political process in general, but I’m starting to think I may need to start focusing more of my efforts on educating potential political allies in order to advance to cause of viable public-access LENR.

        • NJT

          Yes bobeson, I concur with most of your concerns herein, but for once we have some very credible evidence of LENR energy, and I now celebrate that, as you should too.

          You say ” I may need to start focusing more of my efforts on educating potential political allies in order to advance to cause of viable public-access LENR.”

          That is very good point and we should all here focus on that point to spread the word to the PTB!

          Cheers to you…

        • Roger Bird

          Get some fish oil and start taking it on a regular basis.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Hi Bobeson,

          You have been an incredible help these past months. We are encouraged by the report and this proposal is both a vote of confidence in it and a challenge to have the strength of evidence taken further, but it is just that, a proposal.

          We have to seek opinion in an open manner, so when ideas are put forward, we put them to the crowd, sometimes before they are fully thought through, that goes for this suggestion as well as for our initial response to the ECat report. There is an inherent danger with an organisation sharing part formed ideas to people that may feel they are a decision or fact, but that is the way we chose to operate.

          The facts are the facts until they change and this week the known unknowns got a little more known.

          We all want the same thing I feel, the emergence and exploitation of a new form of liberating energy production for the betterment of humanity and the planet. There is no rule book for how this will go, but as far as the MFMP is concerned, independence and open research is paramount and we do not want to jeopardise that.

          Perhaps some of the suggestions by others to raise a far smaller sum to support independent tests in situ would be more acceptable to you?

          • Pedro

            In situ tests might also have a much better chance of being accepted by AR. There is a very big chance he will refuse to deliver a 1M ecat to you or a university of your choice. He seems not yet ready for that. You might ask him before you proceed with this plan.

          • Bob Greenyer

            He was asked and only after a positive response was this proposal published.

  • AB

    The Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project (MFMP) is run by Quantum Heat C.I.C. which is legally a non-profit Community Interest Company registered in the United Kingdom.

    Needs a link where the reader can learn more about non-profit Community Interest Companies.

    It has 3 aims:
    Show to the world there is a new practical primary energy source we call the New Fire
    Once shown, help develop peoples understanding of what the New Fire is
    Help promote the development and uptake of the New Fire in all its various guises

    I believe it’s best to be as unambiguous as possible to avoid confusion. The average reader may be confused by the term New Fire. “Cold fusion” has reputation problems, LENRs is a nondescriptive acronym at best, and “nuclear” at worst. Why not go with “To prove energy generation in Rossi’s e-cats”?
    “To study the nature of this energy generating effect”.
    “Promote the development and dissemination of practical applications based on this energy generating effect”.

    install it at a reputable university where it can operate and be visited for a period of at least 6 months

    I believe it’s important to be as concrete as possible. “Reputable university” doesn’t mean much. Better to make agreements with the university of choice before starting the campaign, and then naming said university in the text. That also gives the whole initiative a bit more credibility.

    Also, since the plan includes revenue for MFMP, it would be advisable to elaborate on the ways this will be used. You need to make it very clear, and repeat several times, that you intend to provide an open source version of this technology.

    • Andrew Macleod

      Everything makes sense, but your last paragraph. Rossi would never go for it. Making an “open source version” is not protecting IP.

      • NJT

        Andrew is likely correct, so get Mr. Rossie’s written approvals first and then also from the approved university as goals number one and two…

    • Bob Greenyer


      Thanks for several constructive comments.

      We have interest from one university already which gave us the confidence to put forward the proposal, however, given that the final arrangement is not certain, things could change so naming them would be inappropriate when we are just testing the waters on the idea.

      The income would go to open research and promotion and education thereof.

  • pachu on Xperia

    What if Rossi doesn’t want to sell.i see it highly probably.

    • Bob Greenyer

      He has in principal agreed to such a proposal

  • Dan Woodward

    Let’s get practical. If I had an E-CAT to test, I would hook it up to an electric water heater to compare it to the standard hook up to the Grid and public water source.

    First, set the water temp from the public water source to 140 degrees F at the tank, then run a connected shower for one hour, monitoring both the K watt hours (Kwh)and the set temperature.

    Second, remove the grid from the heater coils, and replace the water input with the E-CAT. The grid will still power the E-CAT, but NOT the heater coils. Run the shower for one hour again.

    Third, compare the Kwh from both tests to measure E-CAT benefit over conventional power. Plot the measured water temperature vs. time for both setups to assure that both methods can keep the water hot in an identical way.(if they differ, the ratio of the integrals of the temperature plots could be used to normalize the experiment).

    Forth, publish how much money a commercial consumer could save if they installed one!

  • Nixter

    I think Dr. Rossi has been asked to consider such a sale in the past, but would he sell a unit to investigators whose main purpose will be to test and examine the plant without any type of IP protection? His primary concern will be to protect his Intellectual Property for as long as possible. As awareness spreads of the E-Cat it will become more difficult to keep his secrets. Perhaps Defkalion will not be so rigorous in guarding their IP as Rossi and the secret will be leaked and widely disseminated. The MFMP has been working to open source what they learn about LENR, that might make Dr. Rossi a bit nervous. I think that one of Rossi’s criterion for prospective buyers is that they must have a legitimate need or application for the device and also be trusted to not tamper with the inner working to discover the IP inside. Meaning North Korea, China, etc, probably won’t get one of these no matter how much they are willing to pay.

    No harm in trying though. Perhaps Rossi would allow such a sale to generate another positive E-Cat report. The MFMP won’t be considered purely impartial either, I would expect their report to elicit vigorous calls of tester bias.

    Normally this would be somewhat predictable, like Electric cars, it’s easy to see that we will largely move to them sometime within the next decade, but how can anyone predict how this Cold Fusion energy discovery will play out during the next five or ten years? If I had to guess, I would say that the secrets will be leaked within two years, there will be an enormous dispersal and implantation of the tech, dozens of companies will spring up all using similar techniques to both Leonardo and Dekfalion. Litigating the IP copiers will be too slow to stop them all, and as time progresses, we will see many variances of the designs as they are adapted to the multitude of all possible uses. I hope Dr. Rossi will be able maintain any lead he may have now to move beyond the mere generation of heat energy and work towards the generation of usable direct EMF.

    Consider that the NRL has had access to the IP and any prohibitions against disclosing the IP will be nullified by National Security considerations, and will have already been transferring to military black project status with billions of dollars available to adopt it for strategic uses. The lack of a continuing need for oil will not preclude the buildup of unneeded and limitless Military might. I just hope that fifty years from now that we are building gigantic super powered space battle-cruisers for the Rebels and not the Empire.

    • Hi Nixter,

      I don’t think the the MFMP want to be involved in the testing. They want the unit to be tested by competent and qualified people in an open way (data streamed live to the public) to give us a yea or nay about the e-cat. They, as all of us, would like there to be a unit in operation in the open. Andrea Rossi has been approached about this idea and is not opposed in principle.

      • Nixter

        It seems feasible then, let’s hope for the best.

        I have noticed Dr. Rossi has been talking more about working on and making progress with a self contained E-Cat powered Gen-set on his Blog, if it can be made reliable and seen to run without any external power, it will be seen as impossible magic by the uninitiated. If it can actually power something while running for months at a time it will certainly get some world wide attention. The second report should be out within the next nine to twelve months, if the gen-set appears within that time also I see wide spread acceptance of Rossi’s invention. I think after that there will be plenty of inertia to propel the E-Cat into the mainstream once and for all, with or without further evidence. I think Rossi was delaying the roll-out in the recent past, perhaps that is over now and he wants to publicize its reality to facilitate its production.

        There is a chance that the E-Cats seen fitted with flanges are being used for testing with a steam turbine.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Admin is right, we in no way want to put at risk our open research by exposure to commercial IP. This proposal is only able to be considered if appropriate measures are in place to ensure there is no access to the IP.

      • Omega Z

        He’s not opposed in principle, But he is concerned about his IP.

        So I would suspect by the time he would be willing to go ahead with this, It will no longer matter.

        To those who complain about moderation-
        This was moderated. So don’t take Moderation personal.
        It happens for no apparent reason sometimes… 🙂

  • Fibber McGourlick

    I don’t think it’s necessary. Somewhere someone is supposed to be running one–or soon will be. Who and where? That’s all we need to know for now. The rest of it will come out in the wash.

    • Bob Greenyer

      You could be right. Until we see it for real though, doubts remain.

  • Linda

    Admin, why is my comment still awaiting moderation after almost an hour? Several comments have been posted since mine. I am a frequent contributor to this site. Can you please explain the delay?

    • freethinker


      this happens to me (and other old timers) also from time to time, latest was just some hours ago. I am even a registered member on this site. Sometime long comment with links seem to go there. Sometime it appear to be wording that is the problem.

      My approach is to repeat (if I think its important enough) a simpler message and tag the moderated one for deletion. Doesnt always work, there might be two messages later on, like I had today.

      • artefact

        Peter Roe is used to that same problem 😉

        • freethinker

          And now he has even changed his tag… Dodgy, if we didnt know the tag 😉

          • fortyniner

            Less dodgy than using a blocked ID though. The AI hates me – its only a matter of time until it realises who ‘fortyniner’ is!

            Slightly more seriously, Admin has to maintain a lot of defenses against malicious posting, and unfortunately quite a few babies go out with the bathwater for most regular posters. Most get reinstated after a few hours but a quick email to Admin may be needed if you get blocked as spam (posts disappear completely, re-posting gets ‘I think you said that already’).

          • fortyniner

            Additional note. My post above, and the previous one, got moderated. When I tried to edit to add this note, I was informed that I don’t have permission to do so. That’s new I think.

          • GreenWin

            That’s the AI resembling your remark, Peter.

      • Linda

        Thank you freethinker.

        The only time I have trouble is when I make a comment that is critical of the Capitalist system. The same system which, by the way, is destroying our planet without any regard to our future, and necessitating a do-or-die solution like the eCat in the first place.

        • Ivone Martin FitzGerald

          The comment is now out of moderation.

        • Warthog

          Just out of curiosity, what to you plan to replace it with?? Thus far all of the alternatives tried have proven to be worse. The AMERICAN version of “capitalism” has been about the fairest, as anyone can invest his money pretty much anywhere. British and Eurocapitalism, not so much.

          • Linda

            Warthog, that is an excellent question.

            The problem with Capitalism is that it results in a vast accumulation of power, while at the same time, operating in an ethical vacuum.

            The only check on Capitalism is democracy. But we now see that after a certain point, the Capitalists can become so powerful that they are able to easily overrule and subvert democratic processes. This means they end up having a free reign, fracking and polluting and buying political influence and voting themselves tax cuts and bail outs until they are a law unto themselves.

            The only solution is for people like us to recover our own power, to insist on ethical and democratic limits to capitalist greed and folly, and to do what we are doing now, with the MFMP; promoting open science for the public good.

          • Barry

            Capitalism, socialism or communism, it’s the greed and corruption behind the system that contaminates it. Perhaps capitalism keeps greed in check the most, but we have entered a time where 2% own over 40% of the pie. Our problem is not the system but a spiritual one of collective greed. (Sorry Frank, a little off topic)

          • NJT

            Until you can take MONEY out of the equation this is the way it will always be. LENR offers an opportunity for the coming generations to eliminate most money from the equation – hopefully!

          • Linda

            Hopefully 🙂

          • Warthog

            So what system has been tried that has worked better?? EVERY government type ever promulgated among humans has been shown to result in “vast accumulation of power, while at the same time, operating in an ethical vacuum”, with ONE exception, and that exception is NOT “democracy”.

            The sole exception is not “democracy” but “republic”. “Democracy” is terrible at assuring the rights of minorities (see “the tyranny of the majority”). Or to put it another way….”democracy” is two wolves and a sheep voting on what to eat. But republics are unstable, and, once enough citizens find that they can vote themselves various forms of largess, they devolve into “democracies”, which then devolve into tyrannies.

            The Catholic Church’s principle of “subsidiarity” somewhat targets the same direction.

          • Freeflight

            There ain’t much difference between “US Capitalism” and “British/Eurocapitalism”.

            Capitalism has gone global, so much that the real players hardly care about geographical differences.

            That’s why the debts are rising globally at a steadily increasing rate. Compounded interest rates drive debt up to levels that no economy, global or localized, can keep up with them. No amount of austerity or economic growth can sustain this steadily increasing debt spiral.

            But there are solutions, without having to tear everything we know down and having to think up complete new ways. A few simple, but yet mind-wrapping, changes to the monetary system could make this planet to a more just place for nearly everybody.

            For example there is “Plan B” by some German economists: http://www.wissensmanufaktur.net/media/pdf/plan-b-english.pdf

            Some of the stuff, like the basic income guarantee, sounds way too far off for our current definition and understanding of capitalism and “free market”. But overall Plan B seems to have some pretty solid points to it.

          • Linda

            Good article. Heavy going, but worthwhile. 🙂

        • Roger Bird

          Linda, it is not the capitalist system. Communism did a really messy job environmentally in the old Soviet Union. If you have an alternative, let’s hear it. I like Mondragon.

          • Linda

            Open science, conducted by a non-profit, with all research placed into the public domain for the benefit of all humanity.

            That pretty much sums up my understanding of the MFMP, unless there’s something I’ve missed.

            But if you don’t like that, you can continue to sit on your hands, waiting until the Capitalists have sucked all of the profit out of LENR, with their IP, and their exploitation, and their monopolies, and just PRAY that they eventually allow some benefits to trickle down to the rest of us poor fools.

            That’s Capitalism. You’re standing in it.

          • Roger Bird

            I like MFMP. I don’t like giving them $1.5 million when $15,000 would be enough for an E-Cat and whatever else that they would need.

        • George N

          Linda, concentrations of power whether it is in the profit sector, the taxation sector, or the non-profit sector is bad. Instead of ridiculing capitalism for this concentration of power in the profit sector, more people would take you more seriously if you blamed the industrial age for this concentration of power in both thx profit and taxation sectors (due to the high barriers of entry that the industrial technology created – which naturally the taxation sector had to counter balance). But the ecat represents technologies of the post industrial age that are lowering the barriers of entry into many markets so that there is more competition, thus lower prices, better quality and customer service, and smaller profit margins. My question to you Linda, are you against small businesses and the free enterprise economy (which is moving away from urban centers, which does not require families to make as much money because the cost of living us cheaper and social pressures are lower to exhibit social status because superficial judgement of neighbors is no longer s necessity when you gave fewer neighbors)

          • Linda

            The current system is not only unequal and unjust, it rewards stupidity, and generates enormous quantities of waste and rubbish fore and aft. In the end, it will kill us all, as you must surely have worked out by now.

            We can make millions of yellow rubber duck bath toys for pennies a piece and ship them anywhere on the planet, but somehow, we can’t feed the hungry in our own towns. We can build prisons at the rate of one a day, but can’t seem to be able to afford public education, which is the surest way of making sure that kids never go to prison in the first place. We can spend trillions on global war and bank bailouts, but can’t seem to bring real unemployment in America under 16%

            You’re trying to defend a hopelessly corrupt and inefficient system, while ignoring the rising tide of effluent swirling around your ankles.

            It simply can’t go on like this. Maybe the one or two Neo-Liberal geniuses who’ve outed themselves in here can get together with Paris Hilton and you can all figure out a way to turn unrestrained consumption and greed into a practical solution for mankind’s ills. But I somehow doubt it.

          • George N

            Ok, to over simplify, the more competition there is, the better products and services are provided at lower cost and lower profit margins. But businesses do not like this competition so they set up artificial barriers of entry — primarily by creating overly complicated laws that only the established can afford to higher the lawyers to navigate through. So when democrats are trying to stick it to the rich with more regulations, they are actually helping the rich get richer and the poor get poorer (because there is less opportunity for individual economic initiative and not everyone is cut out for kissing the beurocratic ass). Big business was necessary during the industrial age because the cost of the technology of the time required large amounts of money. But now that automation of the information age is lower the overhead costs the big businesses are trying to create artificial barriers of entry via gov regulation — one way they trick the population into this is by the big businesses acting irresponsibly in order to create public outrage in order to pass big complicated regulation! The only solution is for main street to understand the game that is being played before crony capitalism gains a strangle hold on power (ie big business is now aligned with socialists)

    • Linda

      Admin, the comment I am referring to has still not been addressed, by either allowing it, or explaining what is wrong. Instead, you published my note to you. Can you please look at this and rectify the situation. I do not believe there was anything wrong with my original comment, given the wide lattitude you normally show. Thank you.

      • Linda

        Thank you for resolving this Admin.

        For those who are curious, the comment in question can be found by searching for the misnomer “angel”. There is nothing “angelic” about venture capitalism. Crowd-sourced funding is open and democratic, versus private funding, which is capitalistic and elitist, not to mention perilous to our hopes for the future of the eCat.

        • You’re welcome, Linda — sorry for the hold up, I am not sure what is going on with your posts here.

          • Linda


  • Hampus

    Why should anyone give away there money? The factory will be up and running soon and then ecats will be flying off the shelves. There is absolutely no reason for anyone to buy an ecat just to prove it works. If your company needs cheap heat/cooling you should buy one just to save money.

    • Christina


      I don’t understand why all of you want to test the E-CAT. The military and the company that bought it must have seen it work and since they bought it a while back, wouldn’t they have put up a stink that would put a skunk to shame if the E-CAT hadn’t worked. I mean, if your company had been cheated, wouldn’t you roar your indignation through the media?

      Also, I’m no expert–far from it–but hasn’t it been said that low energy nuclear reactions happen in light bulbs. Unless scientists are lying to us, wouldn’t that indicate that the E-CAT is real?

      Lastly, God the Father loves us and He wants us to follow His laws. Is it so inconceivable that the laws He made for nature make energy easier for us to get so everyone can benefit from it once it’s mass produced? I’m certain God does not want to see anyone suffer; He is constrained from magically making everything all right by His own rules and the fact that one of those rules is that we are still bound to suffer the consequences of Adam’s and Eve’s sin.

      • Roger Bird

        Christina, I am sure that because of the E-Cat there will be less suffering because of a lack of fulfillment of people’s needs, and more suffering because of a lack of fulfillment of people’s desires. Those are two different kinds of misery. God wants us to try to help relieve people’s misery based upon their inability to meet their needs, like water, food, warmth, clothing, education, etc. I am sure that God wants us to not help relieve people’s misery based upon their inability to meet their desires, like drugs, sex, rock-and-roll, fast cars, alcohol, etc. Except perhaps prison, rehabilitation, psychological help, 12 step programs, Bible groups for addicts, etc.

      • fortyniner

        I think it might be better to keep religion out of this discussion, Christina, but your other points are well made.

    • Andrew Ma

      Yes, do buy one to save money. At the same time it would also be a valuable investment with almost-certain huge payoff in just 35 years. See this news article: 1976 Apple computer sells for $668,000
      Original price was $666. http://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/story/2013/05/25/first-apple-auction.html

    • Bob Greenyer

      Thanks for bringing a lighter side to the discussion, particularly likes the Skunk line Christina.

      Having worked on manufacturing production product development, I understand that things can take a long time to get into the “shops” even when the technology embedded is off the shelf and well understood.

  • Thierry

    You can choose for university the ETHZ or EPFL in Switzerland (two of the best in Europe) and you can easily find subvention from the university or the swiss gouverment.
    I found this on the net

    • Bob Greenyer

      Perhaps, we would need to approach the licensee for that region to ensure that they are willing to act to protect Rossis’ IP and our long term income proposal.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    Edward Bernays, The Father of Spin

    We are governed, our minds are molded, our tastes formed, our ideas suggested, largely by men we have never heard of.

    It is sometimes possible to change the attitudes of millions but impossible to change the attitude of one man.

    If we understand the mechanism and motives of the group mind, it is now possible to control and regiment the masses according to our will without them knowing it.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Bernays was the nephew of Sigmund Freud.

  • Jimr

    I think it would be foolish to donate to this effort. The most that could be done was to donate it to a museum in a couple of years as an early Rossi device. Low temp ecats are extinct, unless some day used in home devices, which will not be for quite a while in my opinion.

    • Omega Z

      There is actually a huge market for the LT-Cat in the Food Processing industry. And with present technology, it wouldn’t be all that hard to produce enough Electricity with the LT-Cat to power itself. Although there would be little excess to power other things, the heat would still be totally available with little loss.

      It could also be used for heat absorption chillers already in use in many commercial operations.

      In these operations, It’s highly likely you would see a 1Mw Hot-Cat generating electricity & several 1Mw LT-cats producing the steam for processing.

      I suspect the 1st Home E-cat will be used for heat/hot water & will quickly be adapted with thermal electric convertors to provide their own electricity for operation with a battery pack. This to be followed with heat absorption chillers for AC.

    • Bob Greenyer

      If heat is provided at an economical price point to a community heating circuit, it could provide resilient long term income for the MFMP. There are many generators of heat in the current world energy mix, even when one technology is better than another, it does not immediately replace the lesser tech. There is a huge inertia to these things.

      Having said that, other points about focussing on another test might be a better approach.

    • fortyniner

      I’m afraid I have to agree with Jimr – the LT e-cat is an obsolete dinosaur. It’s low output temp., large size and weight, and complexity mean that it’s only suited to a few limited uses. The capital cost is way too high, and the running costs will be barely competitive with gas in many parts of the world (probably not at all in the US).

      If Rossi wants to kick start an LENR revolution, he could sell them at cost plus 20% or so, but I would expect his best interests to be served by waiting for his associates to develop a gas-fired hot cat that can generate power by otherwise conventional means, before launching any kind of awareness campaign.

      I support the idea of crowd funding for MFMP but would much prefer to see the money being used to follow in Rossi’s ‘Edisonian’ footsteps with nickel nanopowder reactors, using the many clues available as to what might work.

      • Bob Greenyer

        The core fundraising will be for our own work. The first £350k. Under this proposal, only if we actually fully raise another £1150k on top would we be able to consider this. If we did not meet that, we employ the balance for our ongoing ‘Edisonian’ research and support of others is a wide spread “international Manhattan style project for the socially connected digital age”.

        If we do raise over that amount, we have two options, 1 – get money for visits and heat sales. 2 – potentially sell on the reactor to recoup a large percentage of the purchase price for on-going research.

        • Roger Bird

          I won’t support that kind of money when you could buy a single E-Cat for much less. Even a warm E-Cat, the obsolete one, would blow the socks off of the incredulity cats. Incredulity cats without their socks will look really naked and foolish.

  • rolando

    Andrea Rossi
    May 25th, 2013 at 10:19 AM
    Dear Ecco Liberation:
    The US Partner will not disclose himself until the public presentation of the 1 MW plant in operation.
    By the way: thank you for the important link: I did not know Elforsk AB, never knew about them, and I am very glad to read what they write, very honoured. At last I know who paid for the ( high) expenses of the test: air return tickets, hotel, restaurant, car rents for 7 days , instrumentation etc… not a small sum. The Professors refused for us to pay even a taxi…
    Warm Regards,

    Andrea Rossi
    May 25th, 2013 at 5:10 PM
    Dear Wladimir Guglinski:
    You know me, when I say something will happen it always happens. As soon as possible.
    Warm regards,

    • daniel maris

      Well, who can doubt Rossi will trump his critics now…

      Surely the only wise course is to await developments. It will be a truly fantastic day if ever we get to the “public presentation”.

      • Gerrit

        I can think of a thousand reasons the pseudo skeptic bring up why a “public presentation” means absolutely nothing and that Rossi is still a sc*mmer no matter what he does.

        They will keep this up until a majority accepts Rossi, then suddenly over night the pseudo skeptics will have dissapeared. But the same people (with different internet handles) will then explain how this was obvious all along.

    • Nixter

      The manner of the promised unveiling somewhat reminds me of how Google revealed it’s use of the Bloom Box for supplementing its power needs.

    • pachu on Xperia

      This is not going to be good for credibility since the partner had no other than be good with Rossi…

  • Pachu

    Again i dont think Rossi sells 1 Mw to the MFMP, i think a better idea is to arrange with him a replication of the published test, and the fund raising be for instrumentation travel, etc.

    What you think ?

    • buffalo

      the funds would have to be raised fast for a repeat test otherwize it loses its shock value over time.

    • Roger Bird

      I agree.

    • Bob Greenyer

      This is a good approach

  • buffalo

    it would take years to raise a 1,5mil in these days of economic turmoil.its pointless now because we just have to wait for any big player in the lenr field to begin marketing something small,like a kettle or boiler then the evidence is out.mfmp must stick to their goal of achieving their own undisputed lenr,its not impossible,is it?

    • Bob Greenyer

      We hear you

  • Bertuswonkel

    I am not in favor of this proposal. 1.5 m is a lot to ask from crowed funding without a return on investment and Rossi and open source don’t mix.
    The MFMP was stared to prove LENR once and for all. Wouldn’t it be a lot cheaper to fund a 3th party test by the MFMP of a Rossi reactor (or other parties)? If the concerns about the latest report and other potential concerns are taken into account a convincing test protocol can be developed. One that safeguard’s IP and proves LENR. Seems do-able, cheaper and faster than buying a reactor. Would leave the big capital up to larger organizations who have the resources to prosecute in case something goes wrong.

    • Roger Bird

      I agree with this proposal above all others. Surely Rossi can trust MFMP people. And if not, he could hire a guard to stop anyone who tries to get into the cylinder, or the cylinder within the cylinder. This really is a no brainer. The only problem that I can see right now is that those doing the testing might not have the credentials of G. Levi. MFMP could hire some hotshot credentialed dude or dudette and sit around and watch. The MFMP people without heavy duty credentials could be doing the videoing. Why spend a bundle when much less money will do. Elforsk managed to do a really good job with less than $38,000, about 26 times less than $1.5 million. I am afraid of that much money.

      • Bob Greenyer

        This is a valid point well made.

    • Bob Greenyer

      You make some valuable points. The proposal is different because if the funds are raised, it is intended that sale of heat would provide ongoing income for the MFMP. But there is opportunity costs here also.

      We would only dare to consider this if we do not in any way see the IP. Rossi is not against this in principal, maybe something like you propose could be possible, but if we had to do it in his labs (which is likely) the same criticisms would be levelled as have been made about the recent report.

      • Pedro

        Everybody liked your approach on your own tests, with the data streams, forum feedback, etc. if you could do a black box ecat test with the same level of interactions, the sceptics could participate in the test via the forum and any of their concerns and suggestions could be taken into account. Would be a great way to do an ecat test!

        • Bertuswonkel

          Good idea, skeptics can provide direct feedback if there is a live stream. I don’t think it is a big problem that the test are made in Rossi’s lab if everything is well checked on all possible methods of fraud (e.g. hire your own power generation etc).

          The saga of Rossi always reminds me of the story of ‘de bron code’ (the source code) of Jan Sloot. He said to have invented a new computer source code which could store 16 movies on a 64 KB bank card i.e. a potential revolution. He worked on it for over 20 years and was totally paranoia about anyone finding out his secret. He died of a heart attack one day before signing a huge contract selling of his technology. He took his secret to the grave and all his notes and prototypes have mysteriously gone missing. The question if the technology was for real remains unanswered. A more rational person might have shared his secret with more people to fight skepticism and ensure the long term viability of the project. Inventors are however not always rational due to the large personal investments into the project, this can cloud their vision. If Rossi has the goods he could have easily proven it beyond a doubt by now. He is either a master fraud or a paranoia inventor so despaired to keep his secrets that it stands in the way of a conclusive verification of the technology.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Hi Pedro,

          This is exactly the approach we would seek, it is our DNA, though we would stand off from the work and let truly independent qualified testers perform the tests. Regular updates would invite critique so that the validity of the claims are heightened.

          Maybe we could convince the team running the 6 month test to work with us as a comment and feedback / data publishing hub. This would help settle the debate in the scientific community but only a tangible asset that can be visited would settle the debate for most.

  • Tom

    I’m not sure if you’ve seen this article but I can’t find any posts about it.
    Most comments seem to be uninformed trolls but I like to see the coverage none the less.

    • Roger Bird

      This is my main link that I send to people as E-Cat 101.

  • Shane D.

    I’m very supportive of the MFMP. I just can’t see where this is a good new initiative. As already mentioned, this has been tried before.

    Guess that is a skeptics argument in and of itself, but for this topic I will leave that one alone.

    But lets say that Rossi agrees; there would no doubt be patent worry strings attached. Then where would this endeavor be?

    MFMP is, to me: “outside the box”. A clean LENR slate. Associating with others, except for Celani (who it appears was wrong by the way), and other non-profits -pollutes the concept.

    Either go it pure or give it up.

    Great guys to me. True enviromental patriots, but ran up against what every busines runs into… reality and the Lindas of the world.

    • Linda

      Excuse me, sorry… “the Lindas of this world?”

      I think what you mean to say is, “those pesky people who don’t let busuness get away with murder and pillage.”

      • Shane D.


        Sorry, but I mean’t exactly what I said.

        I’m politically, socially, enviromentally and -bear the thought… religiously a very conservtive person. Probably baffles you?

        But when it comes to green, I guarantee you I outdo you, and all you other self proclaimed, self righteous -in name only, hypocrit, greenies.

        I practice my beliefs and can safely say that I, a capitalist pig (in your book), a white (as you charged before), not short (as you described before), and not balding -yet!… am a tried and true enviromental nut.

        Even worse: I worked in the oil industry to pay my way through college 40 years ago. Gosh, aren’t I bad? By the way, the oil industry workers are the most talented, hard working, industrious people I have ever known. There I said it.

        Also an Anglo saxon, French, German, Polish, American Indian dude. Blond hair, blue eyed, tall, and everything you hate in a man (or so I guess)… what a shock for you.

        Plus… I care for the enviroment… oh my go (just for you I’ll drop the “d”). Just in case you missed it: I do care about the enviroment just as much as you if not more.

        Confusing I know. Doesn’t quite fit into your anti-male, anti-capitalist, anti-real world, anti-God,

        Maybe, just maybe, you should forgo your biases and think anew.

        Take care Linda.

        • Linda

          That reads like you typed it with a hammer.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Hi Shane,

      Thanks for your input.

      We would only consider actioning this proposal if a licensee could take responsibility for ensuring we do not see any IP, because we want to clean room everything ourselves. That is non-negotiable. We do not want to know what is in the box. We still accept that for some this may be too close for comfort and so we would have to not action the proposal, for the sake of ‘purity’ in your words.

      It is different than before, this time, the plan is for independent testing from us (and rossi) and for the unit to generate ongoing income for MFMPs’ open research. Also there is the report.

      I think we need to seek a vote on this as there are some expected strong reactions.

  • Herb Gillis

    I think it might be better if you could partner with a user of the heat, such as a hotel or hospital or even a community swimming pool), who could use it as a tourist draw as well as a heating plant. Since LENR is already becoming popular in Sweden and Italy it might be best to look for willing partners in one of those countries.

    • Bob Greenyer

      That is essentially the suggested plan. There is one in the frame, but depending on the licensee that would eventually facilitate the proposal, this may change and Sweden is one option.

    • GreenWin

      Good idea Herb. Though a community pool means public funds and there will be resistance to using public monies for anything CF. I think Bob should shop hard for a foundation – the USA has more philanthropic foundations than any other country. Look for one supporting sustainability and or radical technology. This is how the 3rd party validation of E-Cat was financed.

      BTW, most foundations arise from a windfall to their founders. Most windfalls originate from public purchases of products and services. Thus most foundation funds are in a sense, “crowd funded.”

  • Alp

    The megawatt power plant sold by Rossi consists of dozens of individual ecat modules. They’re all identical. Why buy that at astronomical cost when one should be able to do all the testing MFPM needs to do on a single module? Just get Rossi to sell one!

    Also, why even bother? Why not find out who Rossi’s existing customer is and ask him to let his unit be tested?

    This crowd funding for $1.5M is a bad and unnecessary idea in my opinion.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Thankyou for your points.

      We asked rossi face to face in Switzerland last year if we could buy one module for test and he said no because of certification etc. That is a non starter.

      The existing customer is unknown, presumably for a reason.

      The crowd funding is first for £350k for MFMP core research and a further £1,150+ for 1MW Unit

      The purpose of this draft is to canvass opinion given that both the evidence and the opportunity is now different from the last time we put this option on the table.

      • Gerrit

        to get people to participate in this crowd funding project:

        – the money should be paid to Rossi in a escrow account.
        – What will happen with the money if the ecat doesn’t work and the money will not be paid to Rossi ? Charity ? Must be clearly defined.
        – the contract with Rossi should be prepared in advance. I think it is possible to fix and sign the contract with the explicit provision that when the money can’t be raised the contract becomes void.
        – it should be clear to the crowd what can be done with the 1MW plant and what can’t be done.

        The first step should be to get a pro deo lawyer.
        When the whole package is ready, you will need an independent expert to explain it in plain english.

        If the MFMP prepares the fund raising well enough, you might actually get the money together.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Dear Gerrit,

          Excellent, well though out post.

          We are fighting hard for an escrow, Rossi requests $300k up front and really, this is not that unfair, essentially I feel it is the core custom part build cost of the unit, not the off the shelf parts. If paid then he is contractually obliged to make the unit, then you get a chance to test it… If he does not build it, he is ruined.

          If it works then you have two choices, pay and take delivery or don’t pay and loose the $300k I guess. If it does not work, then you should not pay and should get the $300k back. So at risk is at most $300k, if it does not work and Rossi does not return the funds, he is ruined.

          The proposal would only go ahead if all the money was raised. In the “Key benefits” section above we describe the various potential outcomes and where the money would go.

          We would essentially support other research efforts and technology promotion and education, including the ongoing work of the MFMP.

          The contractual comments you make are particularly good and of course this needs to be in place. Since you seam to have such a good feel for what is needed, we would be really appreciative if you could contact us through the site in order that you might be able to work with us to formulate an appropriate strategy and messaging.

          We definitely need a what can and can not be done guide for the proposal that covers the very many legitimate concerns expressed here and that may be expressed by other stakeholders.

  • kwhilborn

    I still cannot help thinking the MFMP is not necessary. Their time would really be better spent compiling written evidence and emailing press like tv, papers, and bloggers.

    I have also in the past said I think they are abusing the fundraising process to line their pockets. Even if they did raise 1.5 million would we know, or would they still claim poverty.

    Their website seemed to ask for money every other paragraph.

    Soon enough LENR will take on its own momentum and this MFMP will not be needed. With a few solid independent tests like the recent one we wont need this.

    Andrea Rossi DOES NOT JUST TAKE $1,5 million. He also researches the company to see if they have need or tried other heating methods. He makes them sign Non disclosure agreements and more.

    What happens to this money if they are not allowed to buy one?

    I dont like this kind of fundraising as it is at the heart of many scams.

    • Bob Greenyer

      There is a huge barrier right now to real funds flowing to researchers in this field and that is the question “is it real”. A report is progress but it is not tangible. Words and pictures even are not enough for sponsors when the technology is for the most part not accepted. The MFMP is all about seeing that the world gets to see this is real. I have personal experience of speaking to high level bankers, politicians and scientists and without hard evidence that can be touched, words are just words.

      Rossi has been asked specifically about the potential for MFMP to raise funds and to facilitate (but not perform ourselves) tests by competent, independent (from ourselves and Rossi) parties. And for latter sale of heat. Rossi in principal is not against the idea.

      In the post above under “Key Benefits” you can see what would happen under various fundraising outcomes.

      Personally, having spent 2 to 18 hours a day, pretty much every day since August 12th last year on this with no income whatsoever from it and still holding back from seeking compensation for expenses, I can say that I personally am not getting wealthy doing this, I do it in the hope of a better future for my children, my son being born last week.

      • Gerrit

        Congratulations. Mother and child are ok, father is recovering ?

        • Bob Greenyer

          Thanks for your kind concern.

          Mother is cooking I am looking after healthy, clingy, baby boy- sadly, our well ran dry today so we are having to really avoid using the little water we have at the moment – Silly really as there was a HUGE storm last night.

      • kwhilborn

        Congtatulations on happy news. I also have three children.

        Reports like the latest one are not concrete, but they have convinced a lot more people towards the LENR is real view.

        Wired and Forbes magazine carried good reviews of it.

        It was not so long ago we could not get 25 000 signatures on a petition to the White house to address the LENR issue. If you can get 25 000 signatures on a petition the President will respond.

        Why not try this again?

        Even with a Rossi device you will still have people claiming hidden lasers and hampster wheels are powering it. If they do not trust the group that did this then they are foolish enough as it is.

        My main point is that LENR is gaining momentum and it will soon if not already pass you by. It is like you are campaigning for the airplane after it has flown. Many still disbelieve but in a few short years jets will be flying. I still see LENR powered cars within 8 years.

        I also commit many hours towards bringing LENR to light. I have emailed every hybrid scientist in the world (I think) by now.

        I also talk in science forums and post LENR breakthroughs, etc. The main thing holding science back on this at the moment is the catalyst. If I were you I’d break open the first ecat I saw and reveal the catalyst, and for this reason I do not think Andrea Rossi will trust anyone who might be so motivated.

  • Roger Bird

    Some of us need to stop preaching to the choir. So, this is what I do, and I want you to do something like it: I set my Google News (or any other news service that you like) for some topic that will be appropriate for my message, like “global warming”, and then I click on a news story and go straight to the comments section, if there is one, and enter something like this:


    Global warming has been canceled:




    Global warming has been canceled:

    LENR 101: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EtweR_qGHEc&list=PL4774A5E3164F4290

    E-Cat 101: http://phys.org/news/2013-05-rossi-e-cat-energy-density-higher.html


    I must have set my message in 20 different news stories today. Not every news outlet has comments. Like Fox News has no comments. And some news outlets are difficult to register with, or you are already registered but can’t remember you ID and password. Don’t spend too much time on any one news outlet. Don’t allow yourself to feel hassled. If a news outlet becomes a hassle, just go on to the next one.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Dear Roger,

      This is a great. proactive approach. Credit to you.

  • guga


    1. I doubt that they can collect that much money.

    2. I doubt that Rossi, respectively his partner, would really sell any technology to the MFMP.

    3. If they could collect that much money, they should do their own experiments much faster than now. That might help LENR a lot more. While most people here sympathize with Rossi, I guess the priority for the community here is that LENR becomes a huge and quick success. Nothing would help more than publicly available data how (a lot of) excess energy can be generated with LENR.

    • Bob Greenyer


      1. You are probably right. The balance would be added to open research.

      2. He has in principal agreed. We would not in any way seek access to the IP and the licensee would be responsible for ensuring that. We would only seek to ensure independence of test team (from us and rossi), their appropriate credentials and to be able to live publish at least power in and power out.

      3. We agree. Either we reach the top stretch goal and have on-going income to perform research, or we get part way there, in which case we have more to work with.

      • Robyn Wyrick

        Bob, I really do like this response. The tone of Guga’s comment was fairly negative, (which everyone has the right to be, wherever they land on the question). Your reply comes across as decent, honest, and humble; you give Guga every encouragement for expressing his doubts, and yet answer him. We need plenty more of that sort of dialog.

      • GreenWin

        Bob, you essentially agree to do what the third party validation team has just done – test a black box. This angers critics of Rossi and the current paper as some apparently believe there should be no patents or IP of any sort.

        What is your philosophy on this? Should we demand to know the “additives” formula? Should we eliminate patents and declassify all government secrets?

        I ask in the spirit of dialog not contrast.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Dear Greenwin,

          I’ll address your last point first. We have no intention to determine what maybe special about the reactor if the plan goes ahead. We do not want to do the actual testing so as to avoid any accusations of being close to rossi or to have had a chance to know what is inside. We want to be able to be free and unrestricted in our own research. This is more about settling the debate.

          Our approach to science is different to that performed in the recent tests. We would set out to ensure the scientists are independent from us and Rossi and that they are qualified to do the test.

          We would expect as much as is possible for them to work in the manner that we do, so, before a test, we would want them to publish the protocol for the test and invite public comment.

          We would then expect the data, as much as is possible, to be live published.

          We would hope that the most critical people available will then pick holes in the approach taken so that these can be resolved and the integrity of the data be assured.

          Publishing a report afterwards would basically then be a summary.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      guga…..Does this mean you accept the third party tests are valid evidence of Dr. Rossi’s E-cat?

  • Long johns

    One million isn’t much. Any entry level research grant from the government is worth that much. Just write a grant to the DOE with these expressed goals. Tiny amount really. Someone like mckubrick at SRI should be able to throw together 20 pages.

    • Gerrit

      1 million is tiny for a Kubrick film budget.

      • LB

        And Kubrik has an undeniable track record
        of generating excess dollars with a “COP”>>1

      • freethinker


      • GreenWin

        Not if you consider 1956 “The Killing.”

  • mark

    Did the hotcats used in the third party test contain the “mouse” in them?

    The report only mentions the resistor coil.

    Can someone clarify?

    • mark

      The control box is the “mouse”

      • Gerrit

        That is not correct. the mouse is slighty bigger than the cat. The mouse & cat setup was not tested.

        • mark

          The mouse is slightly bigger than the cat. Where does it sit?
          They may test this setup in the next six-month long test.

      • fortyniner

        I agree. The control box is the new factor and so must be the ‘mouse’. Rossi has been engaging in a little misdirection I think.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    In the over two years of posting on JONP, I have suggested to Dr. Rossi there are powerful financial interests that will stop at nothing to delay and/or eliminate his E-Cat. He has always replied to me, there is no reason to believe he is being threatened, and has always minimized the possibility of violence toward him. He has now told us his life has been threatened and he takes this threat seriously. Those of us who respect and believe in Dr. Rossi should also take these threats seriously and do all we can to expose those making these threats.

    • rolando

      His industrial partner also has the know-how secrets of the Ecat so killing Rossi will slow this but will not stop it.

      Andrea Rossi
      May 25th, 2013 at 10:33 AM
      We are, obviously, under attack, as usually after a successful test, but this time the level of threat has been raised: not being able to attack under a scientific and/or technological point of view the Third Party Indipendent Test, some are clearly inviting to kill me ( if so, at last I will be able to rest, after working 16 hours per day!), others insulting, but there is one that is very disturbing: a blog, which our intelligence has discovered to be of the same snake that is gently inviting to kill ( sic) me, has written that there are actions pending upon me in Court: this is totally false. Our attorneys tried to sue the author of this false statement, but it turned out that the author is anonimous, just a false address of a nickname, strangely originated from the same source of the website that invites to kill me and suggests how to. In any case, I declare and swear that it is totally false that there are any actions in Court pending against me. Of course we will search the evidence to make a REAL action in Court against the snake that has put in the web this false information.
      To know exactly what happened to me in past ( I mean 15- 20 years ago) please go to
      Warm Regards,
      Andrea Rossi

      • Stew

        This “blog” with alleged death threats seems to be visible only to Rossi.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          Rossi has proven to me he is an honest, intelligent and sincere man.

  • Gerrit
    • fortyniner

      Hody in all his various personae has brass balls, not blue ones.

      • Omega Z


        Are You Sure.
        Blue Balls would explain his temperament.
        Frustrated. 🙂

        We can denote hm a new handle- Old Blue Balls 🙂

  • artefact


    Racing Towards Very Different Hydrogen Futures

    “Stay turned… things are starting to get very interesting.”


    • AB

      That’s a good article. One can tell that the author actually read the paper.

      By the way artefact, where you posting as Peter Roe in the past?

      • fortyniner

        Hi AB.

        As ‘Peter Roe’ I got auto-blocked on this blog for some reason, so I switched to ‘fortyniner’ as this is a tag I’ve used elsewhere for quite some time. I think Admin has sorted the problem now, but I’ve decided to stay with the current ID anyway.


      • artefact

        I like peters posts, but… no 🙂

        Re evworld: They say to have about 20000 page visits daily and the article is linked on the main page.

        • Gerrit

          I thought we were all the same guy …

          • artefact

            why did I just write that? I need to take my medizine! 😉

  • Sanjeev

    I welcome this idea. I remember that it was shot down before by the very supporters of MFMP. I wonder if something has changed after the report.

    However, it might not be practical, for the reason the ECat is not very popular (in fact its the opposite). Not many people trust it. It will be difficult and may take a long time to raise enough money.

    This can be solved by finding a partner who has a need for heat and can spend 1.5m easily and also agrees to do an open test without breaking the NDAs etc. Since there is already an Escrow condition, there cannot be any loss. And since there is already a condition for acceptance test, all you need to do is to carry out that test in your own way.

    Rossi has already agreed that the customer can test it in any way they like as long as they do not touch his powder. So the way is clear. The partner can be any institution like a hospital or a big hotel, and if you approach many, there is a chance that one will agree. This also has a benefit that the plant can be opened to public.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Hi Sanjeev,

      We have a community heat supplier in the frame, but if the proposal was to go ahead, their maybe others that would consider making a better deal with the MFMP. Perhaps we could give them an option to buy the unit after a period of time, thus returning the bulk of the purchase price back to the MFMP sooner rather than later and remove the risk of us being accused of wanting to gain access to it (which we absolutely do not want).

  • lenrdawn


    When you talked to Rossi, were you invited to participate in the tests which resulted in the Levi et al paper published a couple of days ago? Or the follow up test?

    • Bob Greenyer

      We were not invited. About the up and coming test, we could always ask I suppose. But we really want to be stand off in any test… Even in the proposal above, we would not want to get in a position where the independence of our work could be questioned.

      • lenrdawn

        Thanks. You mentioned earlier, that you asked Rossi for a single module and he refused on the grounds of certification issues. Does that strike you as a bit odd? After all, none of the reactors you’re working with is “certified” in any way – and yet you, presumably, wouldn’t hesitate sending one of them out to a university for independent testing and, I assume, wouldn’t break the law doing so.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Yes it did strike us as odd. But we pre-empted it and the next question was about buying a 1MW unit which he was open to, as he seems to be with this more detailed and revised proposal.

          We are not in control of his business strategy and he has the right to work the way he wants to, we can only propose plans that are workable.

  • georgehants

    Wonderful debate on the failures of capitalism below, unfortunately I have been led to believe such areas are, off topic.
    Will just mention that with full understanding of Rossi’s position in a capitalist World, it has now been over two years since he has developed a high output Cold Fusion device.
    If it where not for the insane demands of capitalism that “secret” would have been released immediately and god knows where the Technology would be now.
    He keeps the Secret because of the temptations of capitalistic money and power, this is not a system that is ever going to improve the thinking. morality or justice of our society’s.

    • buffalo

      he has every right to become rich.if you take away his right to become rich you take away the rights of all inventors to become rich.if you take away all inventors rights to become rich you squash incentive for inventing.

      • georgehants

        buffalo, did I say in this capitalist World he did not have the right to become rich. I said —
        Without capitalism the secret would have been freely known at least two years ago for all scientists to have contributed to it’s advance, there would be no need for MFMP to be trying to find that secret with donations etc.
        I disagree with your belief that people would not in an equal World without excessive reward, feel good about working for the benefit of all.

        • Bob Greenyer


          There are many working configurations of LENR and the subset, the New Fire, this revised proposal for comment does not in any way affect our passion for exploration of open technologies using live open science approach.

          We do not want in any way to be prevented from carrying out our own research by getting too close to existing claims of other high yield technology.

          Our role has always been to establish the truth, educate and promote within our limited means. We wish that this technology had been investigated more widely over the past near quarter of a century.

          • georgehants

            Bob, thank you I agree entirely, until improved we have to work with the way things are.
            You said —-
            “We wish that this technology had been investigated more widely over the past near quarter of a century.”
            Again I agree and feel that more effort should be made by the Cold Fusion websites to try and put right the faults in society that have led to this 25 years of wasted argument and dispute that has possibly cost millions of lives and much suffering.
            What has happened can never be changed but we all have the opportunity to help ensure that in the future these crimes are reduced.

        • Roger Bird

          “feel good about working for the benefit of all”. Don’t we have that in every Communist country ***still left*** in the world. Oh, I forgot, it might be the government’s creed (while their officials enrich themselves), but it is not the people’s creed. The people’s creed is still “I, me, my, mine, and myself, and perhaps my family”. And you can’t impose selflessness on people. They have to want it and discover how rewarding it is for themselves. Government rules won’t work, especially when the government officials are just as selfish as the people.

          • Omega Z

            Yeah, What you said. +1

      • JamesThomas

        Buffalo, your remarks are a very ugly and sad – but true – testimony regarding the disease of excessive desire for wealth and possessions.
        I mean what incentive is there in simply helping make the planet a healthier place for all – including our own children and grandchildren…?
        They are not the motivation or concern. What is, is hording more money than I can spend in a thousand lifetimes.

        I’m not sure humanity deserves or would have the wisdom to use and truly benefit from any major breakthrough in cheap and clean energy technology…unless that technology also comes with a drastic change of heart and vision.

      • Linda

        Buffalo, it is simply not true at all that people must be able to get rich or else they would not research and invent. In fact, the only reason most people work at all, or even desire to be rich is to escape the penalty of “failure” in the capitalist system, which is starvation and death.

        The truth is, most people feel trapped in their jobs and would rather stay home and play with their children or tend their gardens, or yes, invent things in their garage.

        We rationalize so very much that is wrong and ugly and oppressive in Capitalism, because we don’t know any other way, and we are afraid. But we are coming to an end soon.

        The reality is, we do not have enough jobs, and millions are idle, near starvation. Yet the world is awash with money, and the stores are packed with goods. Only a few can buy, but all are incited to want. The rich are partying like it’s 1929. The crash is almost upon us.

        We want and need LENR. But the greedy rich have shown a persistent inclination to steal everything that can be stolen. Many of us are rightly fearful that the rich will steal Rossi’s invention, either by buying it outright, or trying to keep it for themselves while selling us electricity at full monopoly rates which we know costs them nothing.

        A lot is riding on this. This is an apocalyptic battleground if ever there was one.

    • Omega Z


      The Fact is Capitalism Works to everyone’s benefit.

      What you would propose is like throwing the Baby out with the bath water.
      What’s needed is an effective way to Skim the Scum off the top.
      To Filter out the Few who manipulate it & abuse the system.

      Water is Good. Scum is Bad.
      Note these Entities will be around regardless of what system you use.

      • Roger Bird

        Skip A Generation Inheritance Tax: If you inherit money, you cannot pass that money on to your children. Only the wealth that you have build up by yourself can you pass on to your children. (Domiciles and Farms don’t count). If I inherit $1,000,000, and if I build that up with investments and working late at the office to $3,000,000 total, then my children can inherit $2,000,000 and the $1,000,000 goes to the government. This greatly incentivizes hard work and serves the social good of reducing (not eliminating) accumulated wealth at the top.

        • Omega Z

          Yes, this is a topic I’ve thought about a lot, but say little about. Sports & Politics are safer subjects. LOL

          10 people in a room & 10 hardcore different opinions.
          A few individuals like myself can be immune to the dispersal, But most Families are not. Equal is not Equal & fascinating that even a miniscule amounts can tear families apart. I’ve yet to see a Family as a whole that is immune.

          I’ve personally been excluded from 4 different (Parents/Grandparents)inheritances over the years by my Own request before the fateful day & Guess what. A few still have a problem.

          I’ve considered (If it’s substantial)the possibility of a small sum dispersal & the rest goes into a Family Pension/Trust passed generation-ally dispersed. Each generation adding to it. Flaws I know. Just a thought.

  • georgehants

    From Cold Fusion Now
    Cold Fusion Radio James Martinez on Rossi report: “This is a gift for humanity”

  • georgehants

    As Linda mentions below I have put up a comment outlining the faults of capitalism concerning Cold Fusion, it has gone to moderation and taking a very long time to clear.
    Could Admin give a guideline please., are attacks on capitalism discouraged on these pages.

    • Linda

      George, I believe that the admin understands that since LENR is a disruptive technology that cannot help but alter current society to the core, it is impossible to discuss LENR without at some time addressing Capitalism.

      In particular, the current topic touches on a controversial, some might even say, “social” method of fund raising, which is why capitalism keeps coming up in this thread today.

  • Toussaint
  • freethinker

    I for one believe the integrity of the team behind the 3rd party report. Hence I also take their reported result at face value.

    When searching for possible weakness in their written words, there are some, but to me not so grave as to have me discard the result. Like I said, I have confidence in their integrity. They are no dupes (no matter what krivitesque critics may imply).

    So: With that said, I still welcome the MFMP initiative, having a device under the auspice of a licensee investigated as a black box test. It will not give ME any more critical info, as I have concluded it is real, but it will surely help cement the fact, and help push this further into the consciousness of decision makers, MSM and the whole population on our planet.

    So go for it, any way you can.

    • Charles

      If Rossi is correct, Krivit will be the most discredited person in the whole world, solar system, galaxy, universe, adjacent universes.

      Will he just go away or will he apologize and mumble his way out of his krivitesque status?

      • Roger Bird

        Apologies are wonderful, but Krivit has a character problem that is so deep that I would require repentance, and since repentance is a private matter unknowable by others, I would probably never be able to trust him again in this lifetime.

    • Bob Greenyer

      For those that have care to research LENR-CANR.org, for those that care to read the mitsubishi / toyota LENR driven transmutation studies or understand the rock crushing studies, it is easier to take on board the findings of a scientific study.

      For the rest of humanity and political and commercial leaders – this research and effort to understand is way outside their comfort zone.

      Having a unit that is tangible that they can visit, which is small or large and either shows potential or utility, that will make it easy for them to grasp what the opportunity is.

      We are not out to promote any technology in particular, but to establish the truth, to educate, discover and disseminate as much as is possible in order to assist the adoption of this technology and its potential.

      • Omega Z


        One of the Problems is that Much of Big Business depend on the so-called experts for their Info. As you say, It’s outside their realm of expertise.

        So If I’m a Billion dollar Corporation looking into this & asked MIT about this technology, Am I going to look further?

  • Bob Finley

    buy an E-Cat and send it to the HOT fusion guys at MIT for testing. That should shut up all the skeptics.

    • freethinker

      It depends how it will be handled by those guys. That department have a bad track record evaluating this phenomenon. Check with writings of Eugene Mallove. They would probably throw a party before they even started testing, celebrating the death of ecat. I guess the party would not be lavish, as they are now out of funds.

      • GreenWin

        MIT hotfusion project was terminated, coincidentally the same day the E-Cat validation was published.

        • psi

          yes, a very interesting coinkiydink.

  • Charles

    Once again:

    The customer for the first 1MW E-Cat, alleged to be SPAWAR-USN, could release a report through a highly trusted 3d party describing the customer’s experience with the E-Cat. Thus, the customer could remain hidden, and a huge statement made regarding the validity of the E-Cat.

    I would trust NASA, U-MOO, Not MIT, ???

    • Bob Greenyer

      At this stage, we are told that 1MW units are available to purchase and once acquired can be tested and deployed. We would work in a hands off way only but if the order was fulfilled, testing could morph to meet the requests of critics and all doubt should be resolved one way or another.

      • Roger Bird

        If 1 MW plants are available for sale, I am sure that Rossi could sell “us” a spare E-Cat.

  • georgehants

    Trailblazing Israeli electric car company to fold
    Israel’s trailblazing electric car company Better Place says it has reached the end of the road.
    The company announced Sunday that it was filing for liquidation, marking a stunning end to an ambitious plan aimed at revolutionizing the auto industry by reducing the world’s dependency on oil.
    Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2013-05-trailblazing-israeli-electric-car-company.html#jCp

    • GreenWin

      George, this company brought about its own demise due IMO to a very unrealistic business plan. They wanted people to drive cars into ABP garages and wait while their EV batteries were swapped. Simply impractical. And since there is rarely a standard (battery design) in a new technology – it was not a well thought out idea.

  • eboireau

    Investing so many money looks risky.
    The way thermal released energy was estimated, notably the irradiated IR energy, looks not academic.
    how radiated energy can be calculated by using only the camera-measured temperature (of radiated light/reactor surface): is there no need of knowing the IR radiation flux? Imagine a reactor emitting 300W at 400°C and another one (same surface) emitting 100W or another emitting 1200W also at 400°C. Will the IR camera detect in each case 400°C, and will you calculate the same released energy?

    Before going ahead that these experiment prove that the ecat effectively produce exces heat, many other things should be validated by physicist form the incomplete data that are provide. For exemple the report do not talk at all of initial and consummed hydrogene (cited 4 times, only in page 1, not took in coinsideration for input energy), nor about the duration of operating and electric input before the control by testers, the camera settings,…

    • artefact

      Thats where ste Bolzmann law came into play:

      “The Stefan–Boltzmann law, also known as Stefan’s law, is a relation which described the power radiated from a black body in terms of its temperature. ”

    • AB

      A sanity check of the thermal camera measurement method was performed via a dummy run of a reactor without fuel.

    • Bob Greenyer

      It only becomes an option should the money be raised.

      Then, if Rossi does not deliver, it is not at risk. The device is supposedly guaranteed to have a COP of 6, if it fails, then the law would intervene.

  • Woo

    from JONP:

    Andrea Rossi
    May 24th, 2013 at 5:45 PM

    Dear Ron:
    Sometime I have to spam a comment of a friend when the comment contains issues that could force me to an aggressive answer, and I want not to do this with friends. I like boxing with enemies, not with friends..so sometimes a friend finds his comment spammed. Sometimes, also a normal comment gets spammed for a mistake of the robot, and this is probably your case.
    Now the answer: the US Partner owns also the R&D.
    Warm Regards,

    The partner OWNS the R&D of Leonardo? I was under the impression they where PARTNERS and A.R. said more than once that Leaonardo is still a separate company. But with his partner owning R&D, the production AND propably having specific info about the secret reactor core, it looks pretty much the other way.

    • KD

      I think, Rossi mind that his US Partner have its own R&D department and maybe bigger than Leonardo has.

  • Woo


    fefe links to forbes

  • John Bull


    What about a calendar with upcoming (E-cat) events? I think your audience and your site will benefit.



  • AlainCo

    I don’t see any fault of capitalism, on the opposite.
    the centralized church of science have tried to ban cold fusion from journal, from research, block funding… the centralized planet decision to save the world have wasted trillion for nothing.

    capitalist Toyota and Mitsubishi made research until now.
    Capitalist Amocco discover tritium.
    capitalist Shell paid state CNAM to make research taht it was not paid for.
    Capitalist Rossi try to get rich, and recognized, and hero, and build e-cat
    capitalist Xantoulis and other businessmen try get rich and invent Hyperion
    capitalist Nicolas Chauvin try to create a LENR-car and is funded by capitalist venture capitalist.

    Capitalist hope of getting rewarded, and owning your efforts results, make many researchers hope to become rich and continue researching. centralized decision of funding science prevented them to be funded. Fear of change prevent .

    I was not a liberal (in france liberal mean free market, every body hate them like in US), but I get convinced by current tragedy…

    Capitalism, (and patents) is an engine that make people try things that other find too risky (marx recognise it)… the get a small (what will LENR bring is quadrillon) part of the wealth that they create, but without them there will be no money to share… afterward, freedom to cut the head of your boss and stop working, force him to pay honestly… this happen so… I live better than grand-dad. revolution show it is bloody, but it works.
    Otherwise the flu and hunger kill more people than the riots. That is what happen in traditional society where accumulation of technology is not possible.

    What is evil in current capitalism is riskless capitalism, like real-estate, bonds, crony finance…
    real capitalism like I see with chinese business in France, or with venture capitalism, is risky but make things get forward.

    another evil is the accumulation. you cannot steal wealth visibly, because people won’t take the risk if they know they will be stolen soon… but in fact it happen naturally in economy with growth and freedom to make business for all, and not only for the rich…

    in emerging economies, rich get slightly richer if they don’t work, but workers if they can run a business have a chance to get extremely rich… it change the class structure of the socierty.

    of course with crony capitalism, all that is impossible and social class are frozen and amplified… it cannot las long, and either the boss are beheaded or they share the cash… that is natural regulation, and that happen in history.

    Trying to block or plan things, is best way get coherently and perfectly top a catastrophe.

    what we should avoid however, like say Nassim nicholas taleb, is but units that are too big to fail…

    we let many research centers compete selfishly for results, kill the fraudsters and the unproductive, and allow newcomers .

    • Omega Z


      Agreed. People twist/associate Capitalism with the wealthy.
      They are 2 totally different things.

      Venezuela’s Hugo Chávez was taking his country down the path to socialism while siphoning off billions for himself & his cronies. Note their Oil Production has declined 30% under his policies. Not because of a lack of Oil Reserves, but due to a lack of Capitol being reinvested to maintain production.

      Capitalism is Primarily about Capitol formation for tasks such as business ventures & such.

  • Ecco the Dolphin

    I think it would be wiser for the MFMP to wait for Defkalion GT to announce their plans during ICCF18 and NIWeek2013, as it seems they will be more open than Rossi regarding the scientific acceptance process of their technology, or in other words, that they will likely offer more chances that a university test on a single, stripped down module could be arranged.

    To be honest, crowdfunding a 1 MW E-Cat plant just to perform third paty tests on the technology sounds foolish to me, and a waste of money and effort. Rossi clearly has no plans at this stage to allow such a thing.

  • Roger Bird

    It makes absolutely not sense to me to jump from the Celani wire (which seems to be a failure) to a 1 MW plant that costs $1.5 million (which easily calculates out to be $1.50 per watt, which does not seem to be very cheap to me). It makes perfect sense to me to jump to the E-Cat itself. It costs hundreds of times less. It will prove the concept and design just as well. Any good philanthropist and venture capitalists knows that you shouldn’t give too much money to people too suddenly. You people at MFMP need to do a proof of concept on yourselves first. I won’t be contributing ANY money to buying a complete 1 MW plant at this time.

    • Alp

      I agree Roger, but it seems Rossi won’t sell them an ecat or a single module from a megawatt plant! Strange.

      • Omega Z

        Not Strange

        It’s technical. The 1Mw container is certified for commercial use. Which is what MFMP is proposing in a sense. Set it up. Test it. And put it to commercial use. MFMP has in a sense proposed what Rossi would require. Rossi would be in the Loop on when & where it would be put into operation & the training of persons operating it. Actual sale would include the DETAILS for sale to be concluded.

  • Alp

    “Bob Greenyer on May 26, 2013 at 5:11 am

    We asked rossi face to face in Switzerland last year if we could buy one module for test and he said no because of certification etc. That is a non starter.”

    Does this make sense to you? Rossi says he can’t sell you a single module because it’s not properly certified (and presumably not safe enough for home use). But he can sell you 52 of them? That’s somehow less dangerous? And you’re not a home user. I’m sure he said he could sell them to industry but not for home use and your research is under “industry” and not home use.

    So how does this make sense?

    Sorry but I do not see any way you will get a million and a half dollars from crowd funding to buy an ecat made up of fifty two identical modules when tests on just one would be quite sufficient! A single customer allowing testing would also be sufficient. Why the secrecy if soon everyone will have these? Something here just doesn’t “compute”.

    • Roger Bird

      I confess, Alp, that you make a lot of sense with this post. I would ask Rossi again about the single E-Cat, hot or warm. If he still says no but we can buy 52 of them plus the container, I would have to forget about Rossi. If this should happen, then you really doesn’t know who his friends are.

  • Bill

    $1.5 million for a trailer size low temperature hot water heater seems unreasonable to me. Wouldn’t it make more sense to negotiate with Rossi in an attempt to borrow and/or lease one or several of the E-Cat LT units? If this was done for research purposes perhaps Rossi would be willing to offer suggestions as to a suitable agreement. If this approach was used perhaps the lack of safety certifications might not be so much of an issue. Also the additional research might gather data to help with getting the safety certification for individual units for special purposes such as for research. Seems to me more individual units in the field being used/tested would allow a better chance for safety certification as well as build confidence in the units. Wouldn’t this be a win-win situation for all involved?

    • Omega Z


      From some of Rossi’s statements in the past, there is some wiggle room on the price. It’s a per case basis.

      Also I think he only wants a few out there for the time being. Until they get an Idea what to expect from real world data. What kind of problems may arise.

      Better to have a few if problems arise then hundreds or thousands. Basically the initial Roll-out is an R&D process in itself.

      • Bill

        Omega Z

        I think that there needs to be some beta testing of the low temperature (LT) E-Cat units to gather additional information about them as well as some safety certification testing. The E-Cat LT units are ready for that if they are already being sold as a 1-MW unit with 100 plus units. The units are in both R&D testing as well as being sold to customers in the large 1-MW format. Rossi should allow a limited number of the E-Cat LT units out to special purpose testing to speed up this whole process. This could be easily done without having a difficult time with keeping upgrades for those outstanding units. Rossi could loan or lease these units to qualified testers and researchers to gain third party experience with them. Some kind of arrangement could be done to provide Rossi with feedback in areas he is wanting to investigate. He has to do this sooner or later so perhaps now is the time to do it. Putting fresh eyes on the E-Cat LT units would be very productive and speed up this process. Note after two plus years he has only sold two 1-ME units. Some action should be taken to speed up this situation and get more customers/ testers/ researchers involved.