In Support of the Open E-Cat Project

I’ve written on this topic before, and in the light of the draft proposal from the MFMP I think it’s appropriate to do it here again. I am in favor of the idea of trying to fund a public E-Cat plant for a number of reasons.

We have seen the confusion that can occur when for whatever reason people don’t accept as valid a thorough third party test of an E-Cat plant by competent and qualified professionals. Personally I’m satisfied that they found what they said they did — but I know that many reasons have been put forward why we shouldn’t take the report at face value, and many people are persuaded by that.

Having an E-Cat in a neutral location (i.e. not Rossi’s premises) which is open for an extended period of time for visiting, testing, providing live data, would allow for further verification of the technology in a more open manner than has been done so far. There are certain restrictions that Andrea Rossi has said customers must abide by — such as dismantling the plant — but open testing is not one of those restrictions. He has said clearly that a customer can do whatever they want with a plant once they have purchased it.

A publicly operating E-Cat plant could play an important role in bringing this technology to the attention of the public. I think it could capture the imagination of the public more than a written report. Certainly members of the press who have been following the story would want to visit a plant in operation — as well as people in business, science and government and members of the public.

The the purpose here is not to make a business decision. I see this more like being involved in an awareness campaign to provide clear and unmistakable evidence that a New Fire has been discovered and that it can provide useful energy for the world. The low temperature E-Cat plant is an early model which will certainly be improved upon, but currently there is no technology like it available on the market anywhere in the world. It doesn’t produce electricity, but there many settings where the heat it produces by the 1 MW plant is vitally important and very desirable at lower costs than are currently available.

I believe that the The Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project has the credentials, the desire and connections to carry out the task. They have a team of skilled members from around the world dedicated to bringing knowledge of the New Fire to the world. I think the team has shown that they are committed to carrying out ‘open science’, and this project would fit into that approach.

Finally, clearly the most difficult part of this campaign is raising the funds. I don’t think it will be easy to meet the fundraising goal with small donations from individuals when there seems to be relatively little awareness of this technology. The base of interested and supportive people is certainly not in the hundreds of thousands at the moment. For a relatively small base of average individuals coming up with the funds would seem to be a heavy lift — so maybe it’s time to get creative.

Perhaps there are individuals or organizations with means who could help with such an effort — if so, how do we interest them? Someone suggested grant writing, which is a possibility. Surely there are businesses out there who want to find out if this is a technology they should be planning for — for some companies funding this project may be a way to fund cheap R & D. I would guess that among the readership here there are people with various connections who might have some ideas on good ways to go about this effort.

So I’m in favor of this idea and I hope there is a way to make it happen. I think it’s important to get this technology into the light of public awareness and I think this is a good way to make this happen. The proposal posted here yesterday is a draft — I am sure the that MFMP are open to ideas on creative ways to meet the goal.

Frank Acland

  • Woo

    I don’t know how much in charge A.R. still is when it comes to other facts than improving the invention.

    I bet his partner will be very cautious to whom they actually sell what.

    As someone in another thread stated before, i can imagine they will merely sell the energy in the near future keeping the cat design very close.

    • Based on my inquiries to Andrea Rossi, the plants are still for sale.

      • Woo

        i love the idea of an open(as open as it can be) cat.

        so I I guess we will have to hurry up with funding, while they are still in stock 🙂

        the interest is groing rapidly.

        • freethinker

          Some thoughts:

          As much as I support the MFMP in this action to get their hands on the ecat and do test, I don’t really think that they will have a less bumpy road than the previous team

          Obviously, things that were less scrutinized in the current 3rd party report will be better done in their testing, as well as a neutral ground will help. But their characters will be questioned, credentials with be obfuscated in the ensuing argumentation by sceptics, and nonsense items will be made show-stoppers for trust.

          Krivits and the MaryYougo’s of the world will likely have a field day saying things like the group already is predisposed to believe in cold fusion and arguing that this is again a fraudulent effort.

          Beware of having problem in the onset (the nice thing with delivering a final static report is that you control the content in the end, and can skip clearly bad measurements due to problems not related with the actual object you test). Slightest issues in the measurements or setup, will cause a sh*t storm in blogs and comments from the sceptics, also likely generating bad press in MSM.

          With that said, MFMP will be able to dynamically change their testing to adjust to certain criticism, and the report will likely have the nature of a continuously changing content, being backed by a large set of continuously added data corroborating the report.

          If they manage to get the funding they should do this, though – but it will not be smooth sailing, open or not.

          But it will be one hell of a ride.

          • All good thoughts — thanks! I think the MFMP’s plan is not to do the testing themselves, but to contract with a university to do it.

            But whatever happens, I am sure you are right that the hard core opponents will cry foul about something. Fear of opposition should not paralyze a good plan.

          • freethinker

            “Fear of opposition should not paralyze a good plan.”


          • Ash

            I diagree – I think MFMP is ideally situated to test the e-Cat. They have been quite detailed and open about how their experiments have shown that Celani’s results were likely due to measurement error.

            I have no doubt that they would post the exact results and do a much better job of measurement than the latest Rossi paper. Removing Rossi from involvement would make the results far more credible.

            Of course, there is no way they will hit that goal on Kickstarter. I’d be surprised if they even reach their minimum target based on lack of interest in similar projects.

      • pachu on Xperia

        The thing is to who. You should ask explicitly if he would be willing to sell a plant in these conditions. The worst you can get is an early no. The best a discount. 🙂

      • John De Herrera

        “plants are still for sale”
        Foolish for Rossi to ‘sell’ and ‘ship’ plants – sell heat and electricity ONLY! He needs to recover his investments and needs money to mass produce plants so everyone can have one. It will take forever if there is no money to manufacture them. jdh

        • Linda

          No, sorry John, this is what we do *not* want Rossi to do. We do not want *anyone* to sell the output at current monopolistic prices, we want the units available for sale so anyone can generate their own power locally.

          Rossi can solve all his problems by licensing the manufacture under strict IP and confidentiality agreements. There is no reason for him to do the manufacturing.

          Like the Wright Brothers, it is *inevitable* that Rossi will be crowded out of the market by other more efficient players. At best, Rossi can only hope for a two year competitive lead, before someone else figures it all out and comes out with a competing product which is actually much better than anything that Rossi can do.

          So now Rossi has to start moving fast, and get to market ASAP. Because the eCat is pretty much out of the bag. That was why Rossi was stalling on demos. So he must be close to market anyway now, given he is permitting independent tests.

          The eCat must be shipped as units, not output.

  • artefact


    The University of Missouri is pleased to team with ENEA and National Instruments for the 18th meeting of the ICCF to review and explore developments in condensed matter nuclear science.
    There have been great advances in this discipline over the last five years by research labs and private institutions around the world. NASA, using its FERMI gamma burst satellite, has confirmed the presence of antimatter from major thunderstorms. The Naval Research Lab has confirmed that the excess heat effects reported by Fleischmann & Pons are real and roughly one thousand times larger than can be attributed to a chemical process. Other phenomena such as transmutation and nuclear process of geologic origin remain at the forefront of current inquiry. In the past, we have seen the development of pyro-electric fusion confirmed at the University of California Los Angeles and the development of piezo-electric fusion continues today. Clearly condensed matter nuclear science is undergoing a renaissance.”

    • artefact

      National Instruments is probably just there to sell their devices right? 🙂

      • AlainCo

        with just a little risk to loose the tiny billions of ITER&al budgets, and no risk to be banned from physicist labs…

        just to sell few thousands $ of instruments to few scam lab.

        fair trade…
        Of course the idea that they do it to make their image great and take the immage of pioneer of the new world, is stupid.

  • buffalo

    yes but lets be realistic about the one year(maybe two)that it takes to raise a 1.5mil who knows what may happen on the lenr scene worldwide?a validation here,a validation there,maybe by people in india,china,completely seperate from rossi.and we musnt assume that just because of the latest 3rd party test that people will be more willing to donate a 1.5mil.

    • Bob Greenyer

      The kickstarter would only be for 30 days. In the figures below, remember Amazon and Kickstarter take 9% and there is the cost of fulfilling pledge rewards.

      – First £50k to assist conclusion of Celani experiments
      – Next £150k to distribute 3 set-ups to respected institutions
      – Next goal, £350k, to distribute up to 10 set-ups to respected institutions

      Any extra funds to go to open research and education and promotion.

      If we were to go ahead with the proposal… there would be a top stretch goal of £1.5m (£1.15m for the ECAT element)

      In a kickstarter, you cannot give the money back, people pledge for rewards with the aim of supporting a greater goal. There are no guarantees that any money will be raised. If Rossi could not deliver, the money would be used for open research at MFMP.

    • Roger Bird

      I agree, buffalo. Raising $1.5 million will take a long time. By then a lot could have transpired. And remember that being a poor country will be NO impediment to working with this since it is not all that expensive. It is not like we are worried that Bhutan will surpass us in hot-fusion research. India, China, Turkey, Israel, any number of countries have only to try and could figure this out.

  • buffalo

    what if rossi is killed or jailed or completely debunked half-way through the fundraising effort?who takes posession of the 1mw device?do donators get a refund?too many questions.this effort may damage the reputation of mfmp.

  • daniel maris

    I just can’t see how it would happen. Can’t see Rossi handing it over like that – which is reasonable in the circumstances (assuming it is genuine). I think they would do better to try and follow the path Rossi is supposed to have followed. Try testing a range of nanopowders with different catalysts and see if any work.

    • Ted-X

      Rossi’s patent says “micropowders”, not nanopowders. I am sure that a “close reading” of Rossi’s patent application will provide some clues to the team. It is interesting to notice that the picture of the nickel particles in Rossi’s patent application is of very low quality….
      So, following what Rossi could have thought and what resources were available to him, is most likely the best approach. He could have had some “wrong concepts” about the catalyst and then his experiments proved that the final effect was “the right catalyst”. There are many examples of this type of discoveries in the field of engineering and the science of catalysis. For the MFMP team I would also suggest the “physical effects” approach, part of the TRIZ (a method for making inventions). What “wrong concepts” could Rossi have had at the time when he found the right catalyst? (Administrator, I think that it could be an interesting topic on its own). Quite likely that it was something simple…

      • Bob Greenyer

        This would not affect our on-going open research. We would only risk this proposal if we could maintain our independence and integrity and our options for uninhibited freedom to explore all potential avenues.

      • daniel maris

        No doubt if he does have a genuine product, he will have been throwing out lots of disinformation to confuse replicators. But it seems we have a basic idea of what is involved.

    • Roger Bird

      If Rossi won’t sell us an E-Cat, I think that this is a good idea. Do our own exploration so see what powders work with what catalysts.

  • Bob

    Somehow I don’t think Rossi would sell anyone an ecat for the purpose referred to here, for the same reason that he has never done the simple demonstration of boiling a barrel of water.
    I think when it actually comes to supplying it then some reason would be found to prevent this happening.

    • Bob Greenyer

      He has said in principal he would. If he did not, then that would say something.

  • andreiko

    The car industry will soon show itself, by that a combination of e-cat, stirling engine, battery, be tested.Better validation of the e-cat is not conceivable.A lot of heat for the skeptics and catianen is on its way.

    • AlainCo

      yes 🙂

  • Brian

    I’m not sure what the purpose of this would be. Is is merely to satisfy the curiousity of people like myself that really want to know if this is real? Is it to find out how the E-cat works?

    1. If Rossi really has this technology I can’t see why he’d benefit from this kind of testing. His customers presumably wouldn’t rely only on a third party analysis and I doubt that he’d want to risk his industrial trade secrets by allowing MFMP to have all the components, catalyst, and components off site and engage in the type of open-ended analysis that they understandably want to do.

    2.If Rossi is a fraud who doesn’t have any real customers and isn’t really selling the E-cats then he obviously wouldn’t agree to this.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    More tests is not the answer. Let our free market system take over. To any reasonable,intelligent entrepreneur the recent third party tests have proven LENR. They are now falling over each other trying to figure out how they can profit from this new invention.

    • Woo

      I think you are right.
      I wonder what happens when the public presentation of the 1MW plant installed at/by the partner is coming.
      Surely the competitors and investors will have a hard day,
      although the US partner must be very confident in its ability to keep the secret then. So I am very curious for that to happen.

    • Roger Bird

      More tests would help, from different people using an open approach. If the testing were online with continuous viewing by the public, that would help. There are still plenty of people who could be helped across the incredulity gap. Buying one E-Cat won’t hurt any large group’s pocket book.

      • Owen

        Rossi doesn’t need to convince the whole world, and apparently doesn’t want to — at least at this point. He’s releasing info at a pace that suits his business plan.

  • buffalo

    besides that,the image of mfmp is of a totaly seperate entity to rossi doing their own lenr hunting,what message is this going to send to the public,that mfmp have zero faith enough in their own endevours that they have to buy an ecat?rossi is under heavy skeptic scrutiny wheras the rest of lenr players are behind the spotlight doing their own thing,we dont want to later say,ah they are connected to rossi so lets stay on the fence.

    • Bob Greenyer

      That is an opinion that could prevail, hence why we wanted to canvass opinion. It would only work for us if we could remain hands off but have our approach implemented.

      It is not about having faith, LENR is proven in Mitsubishi/Toyota transmutation replication and in such things as rock crushing. Excess heat has been demonstrated so many ways by so many players that the evidence is overwhelming.

      ‘All’ that anyone has to do is to take this to the next level. Celani’s wires have shown promise in our experiments and we have several more in progress that resolve much of the criticism. If they are robustly repeatable then the energy density of the wires is potentially very great – the advantage is that being a wire it is so much easier to study and attempt control and stimulation. At the moment we have worked towards experiments that are only stimulated by elevated temperature.

      • LCD

        I’d check with Rossi first to see if he would even allow such a thing. Something tells me he would not.

        Maybe if you had a sponsor like Google, I don’t know.

      • Omega Z


        With just the results you’ve presented so far, you have already provoked negative comments on the Blogs.

        The more you present, the more attention you will receive from the Negative Entities.

        To Much & I can envision a Site called SHUTDOWNBOB.ORG tho MFMP could be exchanged for BOB. That would be the Pinnacle of Success.

  • georgehants

    Mr Rossi has had the opertunity to have an E-cat of any kind on display for a long time.
    It would seem that in his own time he will choose to put forward a working E-Cat to allow the World to be fully aware of it’s existence.
    In the meanwhile we should be concerned at the reasons that keep him from doing this.
    My opinion is that only capitalism forces him to take the route that he does.
    I feel that more effort should be made by the Cold Fusion websites to try and put right the faults in society that have led to this 25 years of wasted argument and dispute that has possibly cost millions of lives and much suffering.
    What has happened can never be changed but we all have the opportunity to help ensure that in the future these crimes are reduced.

    • Woo

      I think he played it well, under given circumstances.

    • GreenWin


      there is little to doubt now with the Levi-Essen report – unless people buy kirvit’s theory that 18 scientists and engineers, from University Bologna, Uppsala University, KTH Stockholm along with Elforsk AB, the Alba Langenskiöld Foundation, the people at Cornell’s Arxiv server, the people at SKINR University Missouri, Naval Research Lab, SPAWAR, NASA, Stanford Research, LANL, ENEA, Nobel laureates, etc. etc…

      are ALL IN ON A CONSPIRACY with Dr Rossi to commit fraud – it is time to move ahead… with the greatest of vigor. That means preparing the technology to transition to Distributed Energy Resources. To set up Congressional & Parliamentary committees to review WHY this technology has been disavowed for 24 years and how to prevent similar corrupted acts.

      CF/LENR/E-Cat is proven. Time to take that proof to the next level and leave behind the disinfo operations put in place to sew uncertainty.

      • AB

        Just watch. Cold fusion deniers will be seen in much the same way as moon landing deniers

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      I sure agree that we must learn from how CF was treated and how the world was denied this great resource for much too long because of greed, bad science and ego’s. Just how much this has cost us in lives, pollution and development as a society I don’t know, but I suspect the price is high.

      However the time is not right now. I think once LENR is really fact and in the MSM this point will be brought up in earnest. If it is not addressed it’s likely to occur again somewhere in time.

    • John De Herrera

      “only capitalism forces him to take the route that he does”
      georgehants, Yes, there is a higher calling for Rossi, but for now, let’s let him recover his investments and some spending money – then ‘save the children’ and everyone else with the E-Cats. jdh

  • GreenWin

    Frankly the need for a “neutral location” and doubting the validation paper from a team of 11 scientists and techs plus the participation of another 7 university professors – exacerbates the problem. The only real need for yet another validation would be because we disbelieve the veracity of the Levi Essen et al paper. I do not.

    As for a public demonstration, sure fine. When Rossi has finished marrying a E-Cat to a steam engine/turbine and is producing electricity there will be a public access demo site. Until then, I doubt the MFMP will convince the doc to hand over a 1MW unit for “testing.” I love what MFMP does and support continuation on their own terms.

    There are MANY influences at work now… at the very top levels of government, military, corporate, and philanthropy. The President is informed and at work to help transition not only the US but the world, to a new, beneficent source of energy.

    Open source LENR is what is plausible at this stage. I would support MFMP following the hints and clues from previous experiments and building their own reactor with their own brand of “additives.” There is already a LOT of information in the public domain.

    • Roger Bird

      GreenWin, it is not about what we believe. I believe Levi et. al. Some people don’t. Not too many here. But out in the blogesphere there are a lot of disbelievers. Another test that was completely open, more of a combination of test and demo, would convince more people. It is all about PR. PR garners funds and votes and positive talk.

      • John De Herrera

        “It is all about PR.”
        Roger Bird, that would be the MOST EFFECTIVE approach to convince the world that LENR and Rossi are real. Rossi would allow the filming of his E-Cats. A well respected ‘spokes person’ would be best. No need to dismantle them to peek at ‘secret catalist’. NOW, let’s start and organization to fund that special PR.

        • Rossi would allow any customer to film their own e-cats and publicize it in any way they like. I think there would be a way to do some effective PR — if a plant can be purchased.

          • Roger Bird

            Frank the admin, why an entire plant? MFMP has not had a lot of luck raising any significant amount of money so far. An entire plant is completely unnecessary. I don’t trust ANYONE with $1.5 million. That is “run to Brazil” money. It is not necessary. MFMP needs to walk before it can run. They need to show that they can walk before they can be trusted with $1,500,000.00. I don’t trust myself with that kind of money. It is not necessary. Ask Rossi for a container with one E-Cat in it and call it a “plant” if necessary.

          • That’s the only thing for sale. He has been asked numerous times about this and he won’t budge. All or nothing.

          • Roger Bird

            Well, then, I wouldn’t do business with him. I would look around to see what other LENR venture we could support.

        • Roger Bird

          I am all for it. A stream videoing from at least two angles using a generator, instrument panels, and plenty of room between the E-cat and the edge of video frame, just so that everyone can see that there isn’t any funny business.

  • georgehants

    May 26th, 2013 at 4:05 AM
    about the patent requests.
    The basis for a patent request is to discose how to replicate the invention.
    Since you are not willing to disclose the secret catalyst how are your patent lawyers approaching the issue?
    One approach could be to patent something that is innovative but almost useless without the secret catalyzer…
    Hope this one is not a secret too 😉
    Best regards, Gherardo
    Andrea Rossi
    May 26th, 2013 at 5:13 AM
    Dear Gherardo:
    Our attorneys are working on this, and, in any case, lately have been granted patents on the LENRS that not only do not allow the expert of the art to replicate the phenomenon, but THE INVENTORS THEMSELVES HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO OBTAIN AN EFFECT WHATSOEVER !!!
    Warm Regards,

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Rossi speak:
      “that not only do not allow the expert of the art to replicate the phenomenon, but THE INVENTORS THEMSELVES HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO OBTAIN AN EFFECT WHATSOEVER !!!”

      Anybody on planet earth understands what that means?

      • Mop

        You can file a patent on something that you think might work without ever actually building the apparatus you describe.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          That’s could be it if his grammar is terribly confused, yes. Thanks!

      • artefact

        He probably speaks about the LENR patent of NASA.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          He says his attorneys have been granted LENRS (whatever that means), so I assume that means he himself or Leonardo Corp have been granted patents. I sure hope his attorneys haven’t been granted those patents.

          • artefact

            I think he just forgot to put the there in :”lately THERE have been granted “.

      • AB

        He is referring to a competitor being able to get a patent grant despite not being able to obtain an effect, and despite the patent not fulfilling the requirement that someone skilled in the art be able replicate the effect.

        At least that’s his version.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Ok. I can see how Rossi his comments can be interpreted very differently, but this makes more sense.

    • LCD

      This is a good point, Piantelli, Ahern allegedly both have LENR patents that I’m sure they couldn’t get to work most of the time if they tried.

    • Andrew Macleod

      I think he is dismayed with the fact that people are getting patents from “paper theories” but he can’t with a working device….

  • Jim

    I’m confused (usual condition). I thought:
    > MFMP’s original and primary goal was to provide irrefutable proof that LENR was real, which would open up attention and resources, and that
    > Their original approach was to replicate Celani’s device and results, and make that method widely available.

    What happened to that? Was it completed? Was it successful? Did it fail? Were flaws found in Celani’s methods?

    I think MFMP needs to tie a bow around their original effort before they dilute their focus with a very speculative and obstacle-laden attempt to sponsor a test of a low temp e-Cat.

    Certainly any investor would want to see their track record on their original goal, the ability to follow through, etc.

    I’m impressed with MFMP has done, however, I’m not the kind person who they need to impress in order to raise $1.5M.

    As for HOW to raise it … fundraising program. I helped coordinate one for a fringe science project, and it worked, and I didn’t know anything about fundraising. But I’m a cold-caller. It’s not what you know, and it’s not who you know, it’s how much you’re willing to bang on doors.

    And to save your fists, it’s better to have a good strategy, a smart path. And there is a path between where MFMP is today, and someone with $1.5 that they are willing to donate to help MFMP get to where they want to go.

    Two questions, though, which again any donor will ask about:
    > Exactly where is MFMP today?
    > Where exactly do they want to go?

    Much as I admire their accomplishments, they never wanted to make a logical model of their apparatus; they just wanted to keep whacking away at it through physical engineering, mental models and blog comments, so you had to be an expert at the technology to play. Ok, that was a choice…what has that led to?

    Can MFMP get the support they need by just blogging and moderating comments about it? Or is it time to put a comprehensive, structured narrative around the whole thing, something that can be attached to a grant or funding proposal?

    There are people who can help do the fundraising; it is established “method”. Those people are part of the path to the $1.5M. Some of them will do it pro bono. Find them first.

    • eernie1

      Jim,The skeptics and critics of LENR have turned the program into a project to create the perfect calorimeter.Until the personnel realize there is no such animal, they will continue to waste their resources on this persuit.Its time to get back to testing with their best configuration and collect data.Remember variables are plus and minus numbers which tend to cancel.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Hi Jim,

      We are continuing on the path set out. The Celani replications have produced some interesting data. We thought we saw some sizeable excess (particularly for the miniscule amount of active component) in December but there has been plenty to challenge those findings.

      In the steel and Glass Cells, we had a good first run and an even better second run but we are checking the findings which because of some server issues were not able to be live published. We will post the data. This cell type has great potential as it is incredibly easy to see what is going on…

      Two cells, on active one not, both immersed in a stirred insulated water butt containing the same fluid volume. See if there is a difference in the amount of energy required to heat one of them over the other to the same temperature. Indeed it seams it requires more power in the control cell over the active cell.

      Look for up and coming post.

      Back with the more standard Celani Reactors and the Dual cells are set up in both the US and EU for the Kickstarter V2.0 protocol runs and the US is currently running calibrations.!_DSC5453__Small_

      Our core fundraising is for this effort. This will not be compromised.

      Where are we today?

      Running/preparing/analysing several types of Celani reactors in 3 locations, preparing 1 unique Mizuno plasma experiment and scaling up powder tests.

      Where “exactly” do we want to go?

      Well to achieve our 3 goals. The path is not precise.

      Anyone can get involved, if there are people that can offer skills you think should be beefed up and they are willing, then let them come forward.

      The unique high pressure Mizuno has been modelled I understand. The Celani cells were based around the original.

      You make some good suggestions on fundraising, thankyou.

      • Piero

        It’s unlikely these guys will manage to raise such a big sum. May be they might be better off convincing a real customer to give access to the plant to the public and may be let mfmp run some measurement of their own in the meantime

        • Alp


      • Jim

        @Bob Greenyer

        I appreciate that I’m a broken record on this subject, and that I don’t have much to contribute to the technical problem. However, I’m convinced that MFMP would get more engagement from more people with better focus if it provided high level structured documentation on “what is going on”, starting with a logical model of the apparatus.

        The logical model of the apparatus could start with a numbered, multi-level outline of the components.

        All the critiques, questions, explanations, doubts etc of the apparatus could then be organized around the logical outline.

        Anyone who comes to the site now has to go to the beginning and wade through the story, in historical sequence, fighting their way through the comments and questions and twists and turns. That is a massive series of obstacles to allowing anyone “walking in off the street” to understand what is going on, engage and contribute.

        The logical system model, with the IMPORTANT data, evaluations and questions sorted against it, would say “here’s what we built, here’s how it works, here are the key results and here are the key questions.” Very fast understanding and engagement.

        I appreciate that the team wants to “get the result” with the attitude that “we just need to solve this next problem”. I’m a coder, I know what it’s like to get geeked out debugging til the wee hours, “just one more compile, honey, then I’ll come to bed”. Twenty test runs later, mental effectiveness at zero for the last eighteen of them, I give up. Been there, done that.

        It’s not so much harder as different and more more effective, to step back, look at the overall design, sketch out the architecture, and say, “what’s going on, and what’s important, and what can we do about the important parts.” Trying to do that in a linear comments blog and with mental models is highly limiting.

        I’ve worked on technology projects for 40 years, and know many highly specialized technologist and a good many scientists. They all want to be working at the cutting edge details. And they frequently end up in some impenetrable space where only a handful of people know what they’re doing, when, poof, surprise, their funding gets cut off.

        I don’t want to see that happen to MFPM.

        I strongly recommend that you allocate some resource to get out of the weeds, bring it up a level, and add some structure that more people can use as a starting point for getting involved.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Hi Jim,

          Did you see this?

          Check out the presentation.

          • Jim

            Hi Bob,

            Thanks for pointing the presentation out. Looking at it from a sponsor’s eyes, I see the main value as demonstrating that a lot of work has been done, and that an open, questioning attitude is in place.

            Re the posts about being distracted by debates on caloric measurement, consider that if you had a logical flow model of the general experimental apparatus, you could point to it and say “HERE at point A is what people are questioning on the measurement side, and see here, this is how it’s supposed to work, and the specific questions are focused right HERE at point A.6” and “HERE at point B is where we would like to swap out component X for upgraded component Y, which we believe would provide GKZ feature improvement” and “HERE at point C is where the issue with general heat loss is greatest”; and so “While we appreciate and are very much open to suggestions at all other points, the priorities now are for contributors to help us focus on points A.6, B and C, and particularly on funding the new component X.”

            With that logical model, you are in charge, you are managing the discussion, you are directing the collective attention to the key points, you are applying the core group’s greater knowledge of the situation to the identify the hard parts of the problem, you are opening the discussion of the big picture of how the apparatus needs to evolve, and you are facilitating program strategy based on focused scenario analysis.

            Without that logical model, well, sorry to have to put it this way, but there’s a lot of space between technical program management and Facebook. It’s important to think about where in that space the open science/crowdsourcing aspect of MFMP should be. You guys are putting too much good energy and intelligence into this not to give it the best treatment.

          • Bob Greenyer

            You have a good point to make, we are currently working up our plans for the “Live Open Science” site and hardware and software tools, but it seams you have something to add to the approach.

            We are aiming to develop free or open source software and hardware solutions based around things such as Raspberry Pi/arduino to enable collaborative Live Open Science. We are schedules to present a poster session on it at ICCF-18.

            I for one and I know Mathieu would be very happy if you could join the process. Please contact us through the site.

      • eernie1

        What are you waiting for?Lots of words but no data.The same tactic of attacking the measurement equipment is used over and over again by skeptics.They look for the slightest reason to question your measuring equipment and insist that it obviates any data you generate.Look at the critisisms directed to the TP report of Rossi,s device as an example.I can question any device with numerous imputs.Has anyone suggested that you shield your room with Lead to exclude cosmic energy?

        • Bob Greenyer

          Fair point

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Bob Greenyer….what do you say to the critics who say MFMP has turned the program into a project to create the perfect calorimeter? Why not turn your attention to researching why the E-Cat works?

        • Bob Greenyer

          There is some merit in that argument. Our big challenge at the moment is that we may have designed all forms of stimulation or triggering out of some of the designs.

          Wire is the perfect basis for detailed study of the effect. It allows precise measurement of current, power supplied to a known mass of potential NAE. The issue is, it is only a small amount of material in the cells – so the signal is small so we have to have accuracy as even if the +’ve and -‘ve noise cancels out, there will still be accusations that the result is invalid due to the level not being higher than noise.

          Having a stable accurate system that you can then deliberately introduce stimulus to is a good thing – because you can believe in the results.

          In the case of the Powder cells, these are far less accurate, but then the claimed potential for a large signal is far higher so accuracy is less necessary.

          I think the real issue is that even when very highly funded, research takes a long time and patience is short in the internet age.

          We feel the way to accelerate this is to scale the number of collaborating participants by at least 1 order of magnitude, preferably 2 and so that progress is accelerated greatly. This goes for powder experiments also.

  • Thinks4Self

    Form a National Commission to research LENR energy production from devices such as Andrea Rossi’s ECAT.

    For the last 57 years we have spent an average $393 million a year on hot fusion research for a total of over $22 billion dollars and have yet to develop anything useful for the average citizen.

    In contrast in the 24 years since the announcement of the discovery of Low Energy Reactions by Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann we have spent far less than 1% of the total spent on hot fusion even with very promising results shown by our own SPAWAR Naval research lab.

    Current evidence points to a real effect that could provide all the energy we need. Many prestigious research labs have shown research evidence that LENR reactions are real even with the shoestring budgets put forth to study the field.

    It is time for the United States to put serious effort and research into the field of LENR.

    Sign the petition if you agree:

    • freethinker


      • Kimball

        +1, Everyone do this 🙂

        • stuey81

          only 28 people have signed, do you see the problem with this? not enough people know about this topic or visit this page, i went to sign it but you have to sign up first by giving your detail out, so i didnt do it, you need a mass audience and a one click petiton system, or a email the gov type link

    • frank sedei

      Those thinking that Obama is not VERY aware of LENR capabilities and progress should think again. The US military and NASA certainly are keeping him apprised and up-to-date. They have been working with LENR for quite a while. What say you?

      • Hampus

        Ofc he knows. But yet again I have been baffled by the things politicians don’t know before.

      • Roger Bird

        I doubt it. It takes a very independent thinker with a lot of studying to grasp and believe LENR and/or Rossi. Not only is Obama a dependent thinker, he is surrounded by dependent thinkers. I doubt that he has even heard of it, let alone believe it.

      • John De Herrera

        “Obama is not VERY aware of LENR capabilities…”
        Very likely Obama IS AWARE but those ‘special interests’ Hot Fusion, Fission, Oil, Coal, etc. are there to stop anyone like Rossi, who threaten their interests. jdh

  • Alp

    I don’t understand why Rossi would let Levi, Essen and the others test the hot cat extensively and would not let MFPM test the older ordinary temperature ecat. Perhaps Admin. could ask him?

    • According to Rossi, if people buy a plant they can test it to their hearts content. No restrictions on what they do with it. I think they do research on potential customers to try and be sure they are not going to steal the ip.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        In the recent Smart Scarecrow Show Rossi said, as I recall, that they want to sell to entities whose primary business is heat or power production, the logic being that such entities are unlikely to spy the interiors.

        • lenrdawn

          “such entities are unlikely to spy the interiors”

          If that was a serious criterion, then how does Rossi’s first and only customer (“the military”) make any sense?

          • Pekka Janhunen

            I suppose the military can be expected to keep secrets relatively well. Only information that reaches his competitors can actually hurt his businesses.

      • Roger Bird

        Surely Rossi is aware of MFMP and their honesty and good intentions.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Only if Rossi approves the buyer and with assurances they are not out to steal IP. All of this could change if our patent offices/laws would do their job and actually protect the IP of inventors.

      • Alp

        If that’s true, any significant sales of any ecat products will be impossible, won’t they? There’s always going to be someone who will sell one to the Chinese or the Ukraine or some African rogue state and then that will be the end of Rossi, according to this hypothesis.

        I still think this does not make sense.

        • stuey81

          does anyone believe that the military will just run the ecat without caring how it works, honestly?

          • Roger Bird

            I doubt if anyone thinks that. Knowing how it works helps to be able to optimize it. They will want to know who it works.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          Rossi’s strategy seemingly consists of three phases (we are now in phase 1):
          (1) Sell small number of plants to gain real world experience and data for certification. Select customers to minimise risk of IPR theft. Develop mass production cability and make certification.
          (2) Product launch to general customers, rapid exponential growth of sales. After some time, someone will probably reverse engineer the thing.
          (3) Compete against copycats by being the biggest and thereby the cheapest.

  • Anonymole

    Here’s a way to pay for a “plant” and get a solid re-test accomplished:

    petition The Discovery Channel to film a documentary on the e-cat and get the Mythbusters to prove or disprove Rossi’s claims.

    I know it sounds flip, but it is my belief that The Mythbusters have the credibility to accurately perform validity testing and the incentive to keep the test on the up and up. That they have the following and the public exposure to incite this topic regardless of the way the tests turn out.

    From the “third” party report it would seem that the technology and process to retest a Rossi LENR core is well within The Mythbusters capabilities. And I, for one, would actually be inclined to trust The Mythbusters results.

    Now, would Rossi comply to such a scheme…?

    • Thinks4Self

      Very good idea!

    • Roger Bird

      Mythbusters wouldn’t touch this with a 10 meter pole. They are not about real science investigation. They are about goofy stuff that doesn’t make anyone angry.

      • Gerrit

        and they have run out of interesting stuff for a while now

      • Omega Z

        Except the cannon ball thru the wall upset a few.
        I’m sure the insurance payment solved that shortly thereafter.

    • Linda

      Has potential.

    • John De Herrera

      “We don’t need no stinkin Mythbusters”
      Anyone remember that line from Treasure of Sierra Marde? I personally am satisfied with the 3rd party report. jdh

      • Roger Bird

        This is definitely not a case for the Mythbusters. They are into having fun and blowing stuff up. Now, if we could start a rumor that one can blow up an E-Cat and get blue, green, and yellow flames, perhaps we could induce them to try it. Of course, after it being fired up for 6 hours and it not blowing, I am not sure that they would notice that it just broke the Wikipedia energy density record but several orders of magnitude.

        • Omega Z

          There Would Be an Explosion.

          They can guarantee it. 🙂

  • Morgan

    this made me laugh regarding NASA –

    • Hampus

      Me to 🙂

    • AB

      Cold fusion is listed as pseudoscience in skeptic bibles, so “everyone knows” that it’s a scam.

      Warp drive is probably just to far out there to be included as pseudoscience.

      • Gerrit

        cold fusion was “debunked” within a month of the press release.

        warp drive never had a press release by two scientists who claimed to have a working device. Therefore it was never debunked. Therefore it is not poisoned land.

        • John De Herrera

          “cold fusion was “debunked”
          Perhaps it is time to DEBUNK THE DEBUNKERS. We ALL shared the same information (large and small reactors, generating heat, men of science checking out the reactors, and a 3rd party study/report). It is reasonable to assume: Andrea Rossi and his E-Cats are real!

          • Roger Bird

            John, you don’t understand the mind of the patho-skeptic. He/she won’t even look at the evidence. They will deny, deny, deny and NEVER look at the evidence. They will call anyone and everyone a crook, a scam artist, etc., but they won’t look at the evidence. I think that their concern is not truth, but certainty, and they feel warm and secure with their in-the-box viewpoint and they don’t like anyone who will challenge them to look or think outside the conformity box of dependent thinking.

          • Alp

            That may be but none of that would matter if Rossi was open and allowed testing that did not involve either him or any of his personal friends and previous testers.

            It also wouldn’t matter if someone who bought an ecat and had nothing to do with Rossi would release its operating specifications from actual tests.

            Plenty of people look at the evidence. Those that don’t don’t really matter and can’t really change much. The problem right now with Rossi is that the evidence could be a lot more solid with very little extra effort or risk on his part.

          • Andrew Macleod

            There’s tonnes of risk. P&F were open and allowed lots of people access to their information and most of the tests failed…… Even the ones that worked still “failed”… At MIT anyways.

          • Owen

            Rossi obviously knows how to establish solid evidence. This leads me to believe he is gradually releasing more credible information over time — on his schedule, not ours. The recent 3rd party report could have been done to bolster upcoming commercialization efforts, for instance. But again, it’s a controlled release of information that allows Rossi to maintain a competitive edge. He doesn’t want hundreds of companies throwing billions of dollars at LENR. Keep your competitors guessing/off balance. Send out a little disinfo while you’re at it.

  • Roger Bird

    I will support, even with money, an attempt for MFMP to buy a single E-Cat. I will not support an attempt to buy a plant with 52 E-Cats. If Rossi refuses to sell us a single E-Cat, then there is a serious problem and my trust in Rossi would take a hit.

    • lenrdawn

      He does refuse to sell a single unit to MFMP (I asked Bob in the previous thread) apparently due to certification issues.

      • Alp

        I don’t understand. How can you get a certified assembly of 52 modules when each module is not certified? Wouldn’t any risk be 52 times worse in the megawatt plant as opposed to a single ecat?

        And Rossi previously said that the certification problem only affects home users. This is not a “home” use! This does not make sense unless Rossi is avoiding selling them one for some reason.

        • Roger Bird

          I am going to have to agree with Alp. This doesn’t cause me to disbelieve in the E-Cat; if Rossi refuses to sell us one and continues to be so, it causes me to believe in the good sense of Andrea Rossi.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Frankly we saw it as:-

            1. purely a business decision.

            2. the individual modules are not able to provide a constant reliable COP, only with a large number of units and averaging with control can a reliable output be assured.

          • Alp

            Well, if that’s true, there is no small ecat to be sold to the public, regardless of regulatory approval. But Rossi says there will be one soon. So it’s confusing.

    • John De Herrera

      Rossi has to maintain his ‘secrets’ for a period of time, so he can recover in investment in time and money. Eventually, every one will know how he did it! jdh

      • Alp

        Please tell me, John, how he maintains any secret once he starts selling ecats. If there really are billions dollar involved in understanding how it works, what stops *any* customer who owns one from taking it apart, selling it to China, and so on?

        And Rossi says he already sold and delivered ecats so the ecat is, so to speak, out of the bag already. So why restrict the official testers so much? Why not give one to MFPM?

        • When I inquired of Rossi about this he explained that when you buy a plant you don’t take ownership of it for 30 years. Until then you are a licensee and therefore have no right to modify it, sell it, take it apart . . .

          • Roger Bird

            The very same rule could apply to all E-Cats, some E-Cats, or no E-Cats. What he said does not excuse anything. I would go else where if I were you to support LENR development.

          • Alp


            Why not apply whatever rules Rossi requires of his industrial and military purchasers of the ecat to the purchase by MFPM? Those rules don’t seem a valid reason not to sell a single module to them and safety or home application rules certainly are not valid exclusions either! They are not a home user and a single module can’t be more dangerous or require more care than 50+ do!

            Sorry, I don’t see the distinction between lease clients and MFPM if they sign the same agreements not to open the ecat.

            The only thing I see different is that unlike Rossi clients thus far, the MFPM is not anonymous and is not secretive.

          • stuey81

            so what happens if your in your 70`s when you purchase it? does rossi expect you to live till your 100 yrs old just to protect his ip? who takes owner ship over it if you die before the 30 year period is up?

          • stuey81

            and what would rossi do if you just blatently sold it to china? sue you for how much?

          • stuey81

            sernario: rossi sells me ecat, i sell it to chineese govenment on the provisio they pay all my legal fees against anything that arises from a law suit from rossi, and they set me up for life, whats to stop this occuring?

  • Stefan


    A little off topic, I found a post with a mail supposed to describing the procedure to check the experimental setup relating to the report.

  • Alex

    If it will be an exposition item charge admission. Sell it like a political event. Have a dinner and a viewing of the device for a few thousand.

    • John De Herrera

      “exposition item”
      Alex, place the E-Cat(s) in a Museum where people from around the world can come and see a working energy catalyzer – supplying all the energy for the Museum (lights, air-cond., etc.). And take your picture, with the device that will change our world for the better! jdh

  • Torbjörn

    This is a reply from Torbjörn Hartman to a question about the measurement of the current:

    Remember that there were not only three clamps to measure the current
    on three phases but also four connectors to measure the voltage on the
    three phases and the zero/ground line. The protective ground line was not
    used and laid curled up on the bench. The only possibility to fool the power-
    meter then is to raise the DC voltage on all the four lines but that also means
    that the current must have an other way to leave the system and I tried to find
    such hidden connections when we were there. The controll box had no con-
    nections through the wood on the table. All cables in and out were accounted
    for. The E-cat was just lying on the metal frame that was only free-standing on
    the floor with no cables going to it. The little socket, where the mains cables
    from the wall connector where connected with the cables to the box and
    where we had the clamps, was screwed to the wood of the bench but there
    was no screws going through the metal sheet under the bench. The sheet
    showed no marks on it under the interesting parts (or elsewhere as I
    remember it). Of course, if the white little socket was rigged inside and the
    metal scews was long enough to go just through the wood, touching the
    metal sheet underneath, then the bench itself could lead current. I do not
    remember if I actually checked the bench frame for cables connected to it
    but I probably did. However, I have a close-up picture of the socket and
    it looks normal and the screws appear to be of normal size. I also have
    pictures of all the connectors going to the powermeter and of the frame
    on the floor. I took a picture every day of the connectors and cables to
    the powermeter in case anyone would tamper with them when we were

    I lifted the controll box to check what was under it and when doing so I
    tried to measure the weight and it is muck lighter than a car battery. The
    box itself has a weight, of course, and what is in it can not be much.

    All these observations take away a number of ways to tamper with our
    measurements but there can still be things that we “didn’t think of” and
    that is the reason why we only can claim “indications of ” and not “proof
    of” anomalous heat production. We must have more control over the
    whole situation before we can talk about proof.

    Best regards,

    • Gerrit

      That is perfect, great news !

      Let the pseudo skeptics chew on that. The testers were actively searching for fraud attempts through more input power.

      And they weren’t able to find any !

      • lenrdawn

        Doesn’t mean there weren’t any. They apparently didn’t check the cables themselves and from what Hartman says, it seems that Rossi provided the cables, the wiring within the connector box and of course the cabling leading to the connector box from wherever electricity gets into the building. The equipment they used wouldn’t detect DC anyway. On the vortex somebody mentioned a picture taken during the first test on which the pce-830 displayed a PF of 0.5, which would be rather suspicious.

        Overall I would agree that we can’t talk about proof here.

    • Methusela

      Are they planning to use their own generator next time?

  • Thinks4Self

    I think they should hit up Google and the Bill Gates Foundation, the 1MW plant fits in with many of the stated goals of both. Either has the capital to fund the project without batting an eye at the sum.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Ok MFMP buys an E-Cat, they come up with the same basic results as the third party test just completed. Then what? Do they think they can do a better job of engineering applications than corporations with the profit motive and unlimited financial resources? MFMP should concentrate on finding out why Rossi’s E-Cat is successful, then open source it.

    • Gerrit

      They would check for the hidden wires 🙂

    • Bob Greenyer

      We hear you

  • Matt S

    The idea to purchase an e-cat through crowd funding has been raised before on ECW about 1.5 years ago. The idea was rejected then by the majority of ECW readers, we will never be able to raise that kind of cash unless there are a few rich benefactors amongst us willing to take a smallish risk. The only way this issue can be cleared up is if an open company purchases an ecat and shows it to the world working. We will then have LENR lift off.. it is such a small risk to an open thinking company, as the money will be held in escrow until it is proven to work, we need to encourage such a company, our efforts should go into this instead, find the company and we can change the world.

    • Good points, Matt.

      An open company or rich benefactors could really help here. Do we know any?

      Also, based on previous communications with AR, 1/3 of the funds are advanced at time of purchase, and 2/3 placed in escrow. If acceptance testing does not meet minimum guaranteed performance, all monies are returned to the buyer.

      • Hampus

        If anyone here have money to buy an Ecat I really think you should do it. But don’t give it away to anyone else! Buy it and then sell the heat (electricity if you can get that to work) and make even more money! While you are making money you can also let other people come and look it the device (people you chouse ofc).

        That’s just my opinion though.

        • Lenart Åker

          Great idea,
          There is 100 kind of ways this plant could be giving an ROI except the obvious extra energy. I vote we take out a loan in Franks name and split the profit.

          • Bob Greenyer

            That is too funny Lenart

  • Linda

    Raising the money from a crowd source project can be done. I suggest that MFMP spend a few bucks on a Kickstarter consultant to improve their pitch and offer, then get big articles done in Wired, Forbes and some new sites.

    A few celebrity endorsements at this point pay BIG dividends. I’m thinking Shatner, obviously.

    As it is only an experiment with a museum/attraction business plan, it shouldn’t come too out-there at all… it’s just geeky enough to work.

    • Linda

      Almost forgot… 60 Minutes.

  • V.p.S.

    I generally support MFMP very much and consider all the work they have done so far truely amazing. However I must agree with many ECW readers that the idea of crowdfunding a 1.5 Mio E-Cat is simply not right for them. I think mainly of these two reasons:
    – just another test with more precision and more accurate data will not change the situation considerably, if there is no access to the inward of the reactor. May be a long-term test like it has been already announced by the recent testers will have in general a more convincing value.
    – 1.5 Mio is quite a lot and to collect it people need to give away considerable amount of money without expecting to get back any serious value. And as soon as the first Rossi’s customer will make an official press release, it will be time for large investors and previously crowdfunded E-Cat is basically lost money for those participated in it.

    Therefore I personally think, a much better and more appealing approach is something the Swiss E-Cat licensee TransAltec is currently trying to achieve. They basically suggest to cooperate with some interested heat-consuming factory that would co-invest an E-Cat together with many small private investors which would contribute more than a half of the E-Cat price and become owners of the device. Any revenue from the heat sold will flow back to small investors. And this what makes the difference – you can invest money in this technology, help raise public awareness for it and even earn some money on it.

    Unfortunately this campaign is mostly targeted at german speaking countries and thus all information is provided in German ( But I am sure, there will be no problem for somebody living not too far from Switzerland and willing to chip in with some amount. And the good news so far, more than a half of the goal of 600 kEUR has been already pledged. Everybody pledging more than 400 EUR becomes an investor and will get a formal contract certifying ownership of the E-Cat installation. Until the end of June they merely collect pledges and as soon as the final required amount is guaranteed they will gather the money and put it to a escrow account and make an official E-Cat order (Rossi knows about this campaign and agreed to support it).

    • Omega Z


      YES, MFMP’s idea is already in the works & is well underway.

      • stuey81

        i thought the price of a 1MW plat was $1000000 u.s dollars, so why try raise $1.5 million euro?

  • Joseph J

    Maybe you can start a cooperative like this?

    Shareholders can buy one or more shares at 250 euro each. Each shareholder receives one vote in the cooperative’s General Meeting, regardless of the number of shares owned.

    • Linda

      Cooperatives are a great idea!

      Just have to watch very strict US laws about making offers. It’s a minefield. Cannot be done without a lawyer, or maybe two.

    • Magnus

      We now know that this works , so lets kick start things a little and collectively buy one so that we can lease it to a company that needs 1MW of thermal power. In doing this we would be negating the fact that most companies do not want to take the risk of investing big amounts of money on unproven tech, but also taking advantage of the fact that all companies want to minimize costs. So it’s a win win situation for all involved – Lets start a power company!
      When the ball gets rolling and the cash starts coming in i can see the possibility of credit for expansion in the not too distant future. 250 dollars a share, and if the money is not raised in 12 months then it gets returned – what do you say?

      • Linda

        Love it! Where’s the Like button?

  • Omega Z

    Note V.p.S. post below.

    They are already doing as MFMP is proposing.

    Maybe they should contact them to see if INFO from this project will be forthcoming once it is in place.
    After all, It is an investment plan with returns expected.
    This will be a true Pass/Fail Test on Rossi’s E-cat.
    If it Fails, No doubt we will here about it…

    As a follow on, poster Linda suggested William Shatner. MFMP may want to contact people such as William Shatner & Virgin Galactic’s- Richard Branson. They may be very interested in the LENR tech.

    If TransAltec or some other Entity should prove positive, Branson may want to engage Rossi to build a small scale E-cat for testing in the near future. To see if it works in Space.

    Large scale cheap energy in Space is very Crucial to Future Space exploration. It is even more critical then here on earth. It is an absolute necessity. Conventional Nuclear power is extremely problematic, Expensive & Large due to shielding needs. Radiation is already a big problem in Space.

    Solar panels are also problematic & Prone to tiny meteorites & Very expensive & Large. Solar panels in space use Gold.

    LENR in Space would be Ideal. Also may provide volumes of power to create their own magnetic bubble surrounding the Space habitat providing Radiation protect similar to the Earths magnetic field.

    Richard Branson & his connections have Very Deep Pockets. A couple Mil for something of this potential to move forward with their dreams is pocket change.

    • Linda

      Great post!

      • stuey81

        i was thinking elon musk, he is in the space game, and also a pioneer in breaking tech that thinks outside the box, also dont forget dick smith who already said he would pay a mill for proof of this tech.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Omega Z, I don’t quite agree about the space part. In space at 1 au, solar panels work fine and they are nice because they produce electricity directly, hence no need for large radiators for heat rejection which would be required by any type of thermal reactor. I would guess that an infinite-COP HotCat would compete roughly head-to-head against solar panels. It might well be used in some cases, but the benefit wouldn’t be overwhelming. Solar panels are not particularly sensitive to micrometeoroids, and the amount of gold which is used in space as thermal control surface coating is minimal. On the other hand, heat rejection devices needed by thermal reactors are potentially sensitive to micrometeoroids, because fluids are circulating in them (i.e. if one hardens them against the micrometeoroid flux, they become heavy).

      Electric power in space, where only radiation is available as a cooling mechanism, is even more a heat rejection problem than an energy production problem. In space, a solar concentrator could be easily used to collect large amounts of high-temperature heat, but is usually not done.

      Nuclear reactors (LENR or whatever) would be valuable, however, on surfaces of Moon and Mars (because of nigthtime darkness) as well as the outer solar system (because of a general lack of solar power). But I’m not sure if Branson is going to those targets yet.

      • Omega Z

        Actually Pekka

        I was thinking forward to large Craft traveling through the system. Interplanetary. Where size, scale, cost, & efficiency of panels aren’t suitable.

        Also I was thinking that Rail launchers become economical once the basic infrastructure is built. Allowing cheap transfer of materials & prefab sections to be launched for assembly in LEO.

        Obviously this would be years from now, but It would be nice to find out if the LENR effect works in zero gravity. Efficient low cost abundant energy needs to be found before any solid plans for the future can be made.

        • Roger Bird

          I am going to take a wild guess and say that the LENR effect will work better in zero gravity. There may have to be more nickel to pack it in a little tighter. In which case it will get hotter and last longer.