Free to a Good Home — 1 MW E-Cat Plant

I think this is terrific news: Leonardo Corporation and Hydro Fusion (E-Cat Licensee for Northern Europe) are offering a free 1 MW E-Cat plant (low temperature) to a customer who is willing to operate it as a pilot project. The only thing the customer pays for is the heat the plant produces — which should be cheaper than any heat they are paying for at the moment.

A press release published by Hydro Fusion today states:

Hydro Fusion is looking for a Pilot Customer for the first ECAT 1 MW Plant to operate in Sweden. The customer will only pay for the energy produced by the ECAT, i.e. Hydro Fusion and Leonardo Corporation will take responsibility for all associated costs including: the plant itself, installation and any transportation costs. In return the Pilot Customer agrees upon

  • Scheduled Installation time by late fall 2013.
  • Hydro Fusion and Leonardo Corporation to use the Pilot Plant as a Showcase where external customers can be introduced to an ECAT 1 MW in operation.

The price tag on these plants is normally 1.5 million USD, and from what Rossi has said, so far only two have been sold. The customer who agrees to take the plant must be willing to allow external customers to come and see it in use. This will of course be a very useful marketing tool for Andrea Rossi, and a working, visitable plant should go a long way to convincing hesitant customers of the reality of the E-Cat.

My guess is that this will be a popular offer. There is little risk involved here, since there are no upfront costs involved, and if the plant doesn’t work it will surely be fixed or removed (Rossi has mentioned a 2 year warranty in the past).

  • Gordon Docherty

    This is good news indeed. Not only is the business case clearly based on the e-Cat producing energy (with no easy-to-criticize up-front costs), it also provides a showcase for customers to “see it for real” – as well as a bold statement of the validity and efficacy of the e-cat.

  • Anandamyd

    I rather wait to see the “hyper terrific new” when AR will offer a module of 30kW to be be operate as heat surse into a house.

    For sure I will be the first which will apply.

    • Andrew Ma

      Myself and others are already on Rossi’s waiting list. I recall he has requests for over 100,000 units. Stay in line… 🙂

      • AstralProjectee

        I’m one of them in line. I think I’m in line over 50,000 and under 100,000.

        • Barry

          I think you’re right behind me Astral.

      • Anandamyd

        Dear Andrew, so let-s play basketball mean time, or , why not let-s learn italian to be able to ask in italian for the 30kW unit:)….we have pl_e*/n-k+1/_nty of time 🙂

  • AB

    A pilot customer will be able to solve the riddle of Schrödinger’s e-cat.

    • Joel C.

      Lol, good one! 🙂

    • Omega Z

      AB

      Only if they look inside the Box. 🙂

    • Barry

      Heh heh heh

  • artefact

    The press release link does not work.

  • Jonas

    The e-cat is REAL??? 😉

    I wouldn’t mind heating my house to enormous levels this winter – and my garden. You think private households would qualify? 🙂

    • Jonas

      And on a sidenote I’m still curious as to why this is so expensive, normally. A hundred e-cats in a box for 1.5 million dollars!

      • Redford

        manufacturing cost are typicall 15-30% of shipping price. Let’s say around 400k $. That’s 4k $ per unit. That doesn’t seem crazy for something hand made that imply a lot of testing.

        • fortyniner

          A viable retail price is what the market decides a thing is worth, i.e., what customers are prepared to pay for the derived benefits. If you can make it, ship it and market it for less, then you’ll make sales and a profit, otherwise you won’t.

          When the cost of an e-cat 1MW, plus its running costs and relative inflexibility, are stacked against the potential savings, I can understand why sales are negligible. Rossi seems to be attempting to remove the capital cost from the equation, and I would expect to see a deal on that basis, but as a product, at $1.5M and at the current size, it is likely to be a non-runner.

          Most potential customers will probably wait a year or two and see what becomes available from the partner, or perhaps from other parties such as Defkalion (and what happens to gas prices) before making the jump to cold fusion.

  • Joseph J

    Vattenfall is already interested and sells district heating.

  • Owen

    The key here is allowing outsiders to view the reactor in operation. This will be undeniable proof.

    It sure looks like a lot of trolls will soon be getting a pay cut. “Thanks MYugo, but we don’t need you any more. The gig is up.”

    • AB

      I fully expect the pathoskeptics to intensify their attacks while they can.

      • Owen

        Yeah, but the window of opportunity for pathoskepts is closing rapidly. According to this press release there could be public viewing of a Hot Cat in operation as soon as late fall.

        • AB

          Krivit needs to hurry up then and write an article on how becoming a pilot customer is unethical.

          • Owen

            That might tarnish his stellar reputation.

          • Barry

            His last refuge is to run for congress.

        • Owen

          Edit: Actually it’s a low temp E-Cat, not a Hot Cat.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            Stands to reason since that’s his only product at this time.

      • Fibber McGourlick

        We’re past the point where skeptics matter.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      “The key here is allowing outsiders to view the reactor in operation.”

      Only the customer need be persuaded. To hell with the skeptics.

    • Redford

      “The key here is allowing outsiders to view the reactor in operation. This will be undeniable proof.”

      Yup. Like that undeniable proof of David Copperfield can fly, because a lot of people have seen him.

      This will of course be no proof, but it will help and be good advertising. The 3rd party report is way more of a proof, especially if it’s finally published somewhere.

      • Owen

        LENR heated buildings at a major university would be undeniable proof. That’s nothing like a stage show. Does any serious person believe university officials would create a scam with Rossi?

  • LCD

    I’m putting on my skeptics hat. If it fails then skeptics will say “see I told you so”

    If it works then skeptics will say well it’s obvious they are in on it or Rossi and his team are fooling them somehow blah blah blah.

    Am I wrong.

    • Owen

      Rossi’s technicians will fix any mechanical problems.

      It won’t matter what pathoskepts say if the reactor is operating in a reputable company and can be viewed by journalists, engineers, etc. Their days are numbered. Pink slips are on the way.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Like a clueless spouse, the skeptics will be the last to know.

        • Omega Z

          Actually Iggy

          Many times Spouses are 1 of the First to know.
          The Last to admit it!

    • Stephen Taylor

      You are not wrong LCD, but reason will prevail when all else is exhausted.

      • Redford

        Or skeptics will die of old age and we’ll have to wait for a fresh minded generation.

        • Barry

          They will be gone not with a bang but a silent whimper.

    • AB

      I look forward to amusing krivitesque headlines such as “Rossi manipulates pilot customer into believing that the 1 MW plant works”.

    • Roger Bird

      Yes, you are wrong. What you described are skeptopaths.

  • Omar Gomez

    If someone think the e-cat will remplace the centralized power units we are doom.

    People will scream to have their own units to produce their own heat and electricity.

    People will ask for more and more proof until REAL product exist on the Market.

    Evolution? i don`t think so.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Omar, I’m pretty sure that HydroFusion and Leonardo are offering a REAL product, and I expect someone to take them up on their offer.

      This would be ideal for university in the far North.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        I wish Rossi would make similar offer to McMurdo Station. Trouble is, even temperate bureaucratic minds are frozen.

        • HenryB

          While it would be a great idea for McMurdo to have one. Its not exactly the easiest location for Rossi to be able to have potential customers visit.

          • Omega Z

            Major Point.

            There’s many months when travel there is near impossible. Even in emergencies.

    • Redford

      If anyone invent electricity we are doomed. People will to do extra activity during nightime, will solve their heating problem, will have music in their cars. That will be awful.

  • Stephen Taylor

    Very positive developments continue.

  • Bob

    I think Uppsala university should take up the offer.
    It could be installed in the faculty of science and used for central heating of various buildings. It’s ball-freezing cold up there for half the year so it would be much appreciated and an excellent example of how effective the technology is for heating.
    Being available for inspection in a university would be an excellent endorsement of the product.

    • Redford

      I think it would be even better if a totally new player in the field!

      • Bento

        Cambridge: Brian Josephson.

    • Barry

      A college would be perfect.

    • Patrik

      Uppsala University is probably connected to the district heating grid in Uppsala.

  • Dana

    Clearly the customer would have to be a district heat distibutor. 7000+ hours of annual operation at 10.2974 cents per kilowatt yields $119,000.00 of annual electric bill.(assuming 166kwh electric consumption rate). But that also means they would be used to paying $720,818.00 annually. A savings of 1/6th the normal cost. Assuming a COP of 6 on the ecat.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      No, there are plenty of potential customers that use that much heat themselves. Universities, brick manufacturers, lumber kilns, municipalities, food processors, cement manufacturers, etc.

      • lenrdawn

        Most of those will need higher temperatures than 120 C (and they’ll need it on demand – not 24/7).

        • fortyniner

          There are a number of processes that need continuous low grade heat (sub-120C), other than the obvious space heating. These include fabric dying, many types of chemical reactor, fermentation vats for beer and drugs manufacture, milk pasteurisation, laundries, paper making (preparatory stages), food preparation, ‘clean-in-place’ (CIP) systems and so on.

          However in most cases the heat comes from gas burners, and electrical heating is less common due to the relative cost. Whether the offer is attractive will depend on factors such as whether enough electrical power is available, the local cost of electricity vs. gas, and whether there is space for an ISO container and a crane to place it, as well as the desirability of having to be open to visitors. Possibly, Rossi may have to offer the unit on loan FOC, just to get the ball rolling, as the potential savings could be quite low in a country where electricity is very expensive.

          • Omega Z

            Peter

            Many don’t realize there is a huge market just for the heat. Most in the world don’t know the workings in the world do to limited exposure in modern society.

            I think the market for LT E-cats is far from dead. There are many business that use huge amounts of heat & limited Electricity.

            Basically they can more then justify the LT-Cat, but not a HT-Cat for Electricity production. No Doubt they will be much more expensive requiring boilers & Turbine/Generators.

            Besides that, I expect future Versions to have higher temps or flow output/quantity, improved COP’s & with eventual TEG advances in efficiency you could offset most Electrical needs. If TEG’s get up to 30% efficient & cheap enough, all kinds of possibilities open up. All my past posts about the timeline becomes greatly contracted. 🙂

          • fortyniner

            Omega –

            I’ve knocked about a number of industries as a tech author, and have seen many industries where low-grade continuous heat is needed, and a larger number in which non-continuous heat (maybe 8/24, 12/24 or similar duty cycle) is used. Of course, many industrial, commercial and public areas require space heating, but often this would only be for half the day or less.

            It’s a major cost to the industries that require it, but the 1MW units as they stand would not produce vast savings, particularly where heat is only wanted for half the day or so, or perhaps only on certain days.

            There is also the problem of the size of the units. A 1MW gas boiler is quite small (maybe 2-3 m3 including ancillaries other than the exhaust stack) and it would often not be possible to replace one, even temporarily, with an iso-container because of space limitations.

            IMHO the ‘hot cat’ is the heat source of the future, even for continuous low grade heat production, and the 1MW units are something of a dinosaur unless the COP can be safely doubled at least.

            If this was possible I would have expected Rossi to have come up with an improved unit by now, but he seems to be more or less stuck with the same specifications. Perhaps he has reached the evolutionary end of the road with this design, in which case it is more or less obsolete already.

      • Gordon Docherty

        Think any public building with a large space – Railway station, Shopping Mall, Church/Cathedral, Mosque, Sports Hall / Arena, Large Theater, TV Studio/Film Stage – all these are VERY expensive to heat any other way, so a 24/7 heat source that is reasonably inexpensive per KWh and it begins to look very interesting indeed…

  • Barry

    I’ll pay for shipping to New England.

    • Jerry Jones

      HI Barry I would help you with shipping costs, just set up a paypal account, we would have shipping in less than a day just with this group.

      • Barry

        We can split the cost only….whose house are we going to keep it at?

  • Rob Woudenberg

    This is extreemly bad news.
    It shows that the business model of investing in these units is not profitable enough on its own.
    Rossi urgently need to develop a self sustanable unit that is 100% reliable. Only then it’s profitable enough.
    Don’t get me wrong, I strongly believe there is a hugh future for Ni-H LENR, but not now.

    • Redford

      Something doesn’t seel, so you think this is an engineering problem. Let me guess… Wouldn’t you be an engineer yourself ?

      I think it’s an image problem. For a company the 1MW in its state doesn’t do sufficiently better than current available solution to justify the risk of getting something with no known private customer. Now if you have one that says it works, and if you can check it by yourself, it’s a whole different thing. And as Franck pointed out, there are little risk taken by the company accepting.

      • Rob Woudenberg

        The business calculation is very simple. In Europe a KWh of electricity is 3-5 times as expensive as a KWh of heat produced by natural gas. Add up the depreciation and maintainance and it is obvious margins are too small.

        • Björn

          Not in Sweden.
          The price for 1kWh natural gas is half of 1kWh electricity.

          • fortyniner

            That seems to be largely because gas is extremely expensive in Sweden. You also seem to be paying a lot for electricity cf. other European countries.

            http://www.energy.eu/

            I guess that’s why Sweden has been chosen for the offer. Wherever heat from electricity costs more than about three times the equivalent produced from gas, the cost savings would be increasingly modest at COP=6 when laid against the disruption that would follow such an installation.

    • Ben

      What? I’m sorry, but you don’t make any sense. This is the kind of open-to-the-public PR stunt that could help them sell millions of units.

      It’s a very bold move. Too bold for fraud. Too many people to be a fraudulent conspiracy. And if the plant works as advertised, there is no limit to the number of units they could sell!!

    • Barry

      Sorry Rob, couldn’t disagree with your projections more. This is another huge step of bringing Ecat evidence and product to market. You’re not just saying the glass is half empty, but your saying the glass probably has a hole somewhere in the bottom.

  • Fibber McGourlick

    Why are they doing this? Here’s my take on it. This will direct all the incredible publicity and hoopla that will follow from the first open exhibition of the transformational e-cat onto someone else’s shoulders. Answering questions and putting up with world-wide public excitement and ten thousand news hounds will be costly and disruptive. This was one of the main reasons for all the NDA’s and secret customers in the past. Smart.

  • lenrdawn

    “The customer will only pay for the energy produced by the ECAT”

    That is a weird proposal. Why can’t they simply quote a price? Pay for the energy, sure, but how much?

    • Curbina

      The only logic would be to follow paying at most what they were already paying before, or a fraction of it.

    • Hampus

      Hydro fusion wants the most money for their heat. It seems that the market will decide who gets it. The one with the highest price for heat will get the Ecat.

    • Jim

      Are these questions meant to be provocative, or simply evidence of lack of imagination and/or knowledge of business practice?

    • Omega Z

      lenrdawn

      The Price will be negotiated.
      It’s not as simple as stated. There will be disruption of business as usual & possible complications as with anything new.

      A Potential customer would expect a discount of the going rate.
      QUESTION- How much of a discount to entice the party interested. What disruptions can be anticipated?

  • freethinker

    🙂

    Maybe my reaction is not so surprising. After all, in my world, the evidence base is enough to say that LENR is real and that E-CAT is real.

    Week by week, day by day, the pivotal change is coming inevitably closer.

    The HyrdroFusions plans has been known a while now, but now they actually have it on their home page. The 3rd party report has been updated with such clear cut evidence that the DC-faction amongst the patho-sceptics can call it a day (also know from before, but still 🙂 ).

    In your face! (yes, juvenile, but I feel quite happy about it).

    I wonder when the interesting technical and scientific news AR has been talking about will surface. It will some other day in some other week, pushing the envelope even further.

    Further on we have the ICCF-18 coming up in late July, NI Week in August. Right now I feel very confident 2013 will be a quantum leap year (again) for LENR.

    With a little luck there will be some kind of official acceptance from mainstream before this year is over.

  • Herb Gillis

    This, in combination with the recently published 3rd Party Report, is what I have been waiting to see!

    • Barry

      You summed it all up in a nutshell Herb. I was just about to post the same.

  • Pachu

    Note the post in hydrofusion says: “to operate in Sweden”

  • Bob Greenyer

    This pleases me greatly.

    Bob

  • Jim

    Points of interests and associated questions (reading too many detective novels…)

    Why Sweden?
    > Receptive market? (universities, government, media?)

    What does this say about the relationship between Hydro Fusion and Leonardo, the contract for this initiative, and Hydro Fusion’s ability to commit Leonardo in such an announcement?
    > “Hydro Fusion and Leonardo Corporation to use the Pilot Plant as a Showcase…”
    > “The customer will only pay for the energy produced by the ECAT, i.e. Hydro Fusion and Leonardo Corporation will take responsibility for all associated costs…”

    Timing: Scheduled Installation time by late fall 2013.
    > “Off the shelf” or custom build to meet this deadline?
    > What is in Leonardo’s low temp e-Cat manufacturing pipeline?

    Why shift now from $1.5M equipment purchase to “pay for output” model?
    >> (re posts here: Rob Woudenberg on June 10, 2013 at 3:49 pm)
    > Did Hot Cat announcements squelch the market for low temp e-Cats, and is this an attempt to monetize a small, non-moving, existing inventory (maybe one unit?)

    What is Rossi’s U.S. partner’s position on this?
    > Don’t care, because they are confident in their own plans?
    > Is this outside the scope of the partner’s control?
    > Does the partner want this, to “warm up” the market for the Hot Cat?

    Scope of application: Restriction of a maximum 120 C temperature
    > What applications might these include?
    >> (re posts here: Dana on June 10, 2013 at 2:49 pm)

    “Receive quotations from Pilot Customers on both thermal MWh price and electric MWh price, based on an assumption of 7,000+ operating hours per year”
    > 7,000+ hours at 120C converts to how much cost?
    > How many organizations in Sweden have that level of energy budget?
    >> (re posts here: Dana on June 10, 2013 at 2:49 pm)

    • AB

      Sweden because Hydro Fusion operates in Sweden. Simple as that.

      • Curbina

        It also asks for an interested partie in the UK.

  • GreenWin

    Another step toward inevitable commercial application. This pilot project aligns well with the arrival on stage of the entrepreneur and VC community. The ICCF-18 “Entrepreneurship and Innovation” panel hosted by Venrock (venture capital) partner Matt Trevithick is prime example. Also on this panel is Dr. Mark Johnson, ARPA-E GRIDS program director – a DOE energy storage project.

    Commercial application of new technology is often led by venture capital. Venrock and ARPA-e presence at an LENR conference is another confirmation that savvy business people see through the media and academic blackout. As we’ve often stated, little can halt the commercial development of a technology so desperately needed.

    The confluence of venture capital, passionate entrepreneurs and disruptive technology will circumvent the wall of ignorance built by media/academia. Just more good news.

    • Jim

      The ICCF-18 “Entrepreneurship and Innovation” panel hosted by Venrock (venture capital) partner Matt Trevithick…

      Whoo Hoo! Now we’re talking!

      • fortyniner

        Now there’s a name that’s already associated with a disruptive technology. I wonder if Matt is a descendant?

        • GreenWin

          A steam power engineer from Cornwall. It would be fascinating if there were a familial connection.

          • fortyniner

            The steam power engineer from Cornwall! Inventor of the steam locomotive (1804) – years before Blenkinsop’s (1812) or Stevenson’s (1816) first machines.

        • Jim
          • Roger Bird

            Is there point this?

          • fortyniner

            Steam locomotion – cold fusion. Comparable disruptive technologies.

          • fortyniner

            … and the same name involved with both.

  • Marvin Ostrega

    What this proves is that Rossi has a device that works. I am sorry, I have been following this story for over a year now and I can’t understand why someone like Rossi would fool the public over this device. Okay his past technology was a flop. But that does not mean this one does not work. I believe he learned from his past and is trying to make amends. Of course he could get insanely rich too. But all you have to do is look at other inventors and see how their inventions were ridculed and turned out to be right and safe. Edison and his light bulb? What? It can’t works without oil or gas being burned to light it? And if it does It will kill us by electricity leaking out! Turns out electricity and the light bulb were okay if used properly. Tesla and remote control? It works without wires? Give me a break.
    I think you can see where I am going.
    There are always hecklers. The thing is to keep going and prove them wrong.

  • Alp

    “Rossi has said, so far only two have been sold.”
    .
    I believe that’s a bit less than certain. I recall Rossi writing that he had sold a plant back in October 2011 and *had orders for 12 more*. Later on, he said those all went to a military client and he had one civilian client. Unfortunately he has never named the clients and they have never acknowledged or shown their plants to the public. So two? Or fourteen? And when do we get to see them? To meet their owners?

    • Thinks4Self

      When you decide to become property and join the military most likely. If they are in the military’s hands they are in a compartmentalized need to know position right now.

  • LAFrank

    Here’s a conjecture: He’s sold the rights to his ‘Hot Cat’ but retains rights to his ‘Steam Cat’. Interest in the latter by his military industrial customers has been lukewarm (excuse the pun) so he needs to recoup his investors money.

    • fortyniner

      That seems likely. It’s the only scenario in which the worldwide distribution franchises would continue to make any sense. If that wasn’t the case he would have been lynched by his own distributors, including HF by now. Rossi needs to get the COP up to somewhere above 8 at least, if these units are to be attractive in most of Europe and Australia/NZ.

    • Omega Z

      I don’t think he sold all the Rights.

      Just limited rights as to Exclusive market zones with the addition of Manufacturing.

      There’s as many ways of selling ones rights as there are Ideas. All would be spelled out in the Legal Agreements. As many Exclusives as Exclusions as 1 would want to incorporate into the agreement.

  • blaze

    The only thing this proves is that it brings in Hydro Fusion as a part of the growing circle of people who believe ecat is real.

    • Roger Bird

      Not true. Rossi is risking a lot if someone comes forward and says that they want one and Rossi changes his mind. It is also not the behavior of a scammer.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      I think you have it exactly right: there IS a growing circle of people who believe the ecat is real.

  • Jerry Jones

    I wonder when all these games will end with the DEMO here and there and now they are LOOKING for a company as if there were not 100 companies, stop with the games and lets get LENR into production!

  • Roger Bird

    IMHO, (and don’t expect me to connect “humble” and “opinion” with the word “my” too often), this is big. Rossi has just opened the door and asked if anyone would like to come in.

    • Patrik

      I believe the text has been on the website for a long time, maybe a year.

      I remember this has been discussed a while ago adn the phone number etc. If it still existed and so on. Probably an obsolete website.

  • Roger Bird

    I confess that this could be a little depressing. Doesn’t this mean that Rossi is so desperate to get people’s attention that he is willing to give a plant away? What if no one goes for it? Perhaps he would then pay some company to take it. But, even still, once there is a satisfied customer, it is all over for the skeptopaths and skeptics.

    • Stefan

      Not sure of that,

      Maybe ELFORSK is funding the equipment, they just need to put it somewhere. At least, if I don’t remember wrongly, they stated that
      they would buy one and test it.

      • Omega Z

        This is a Different Play.

        The LT 1Mw E-cat.

        ELFORSK is keenly interested in the HT- E-cat. For the Electricity you know.. Their Future Investment.

    • D R Lunsford

      On the contrary, it means his silent American partner has enough VC to send out loss leaders. This means it works.

      -drl

      • Roger Bird

        D R Lunsford, thank you for that. Remember, it isn’t a loss leader yet. It is a proposal for a loss leader. Close, but I will dance more when the loss leader ships. I doubt that Rossi would keep the shipment of a loss leader a secret since it is a form of advertisement anyway.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      He’s not giving anything away as long as he sells heat at a profit. It’s long been my opinion that he’s better off selling heat and power, not reactors.

      D.R., why is it a loss leader? How do you know that Rossi will be selling heat at a loss?

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    I think this was another one of Rossi’s promises. It takes a while, but the man does deliver.

    You really have to work hard to be (stay) a skeptic these days. Marryugo, krivitz, josh cudo are having a hard time of it. Wondering if any of them will ever come out and admit they were wrong?

    • Alp

      The skeptics would have a truly hard time if Rossi did one of two things he has not done. Name a customer and allow somebody the whole world would trust to test the ecat outside Rossi’s lab without involving anyone who has tested it before. Until then, the skeptics can make the claim that Rossi may be cheating.

      Skeptics are a red herring. If Rossi gets the right kind of testing by the right people or if a customer shows a working ecat, what harm can skeptics do at that point? If either of those things happen, nobody will care what skeptics think or what they admit, will they?

      Skeptics are only bothering believers because Rossi has not made things ironclad certain. The skeptics remind everyone about the doubts. If there was no doubt, their remarks would be meaningless.

      • Omega Z

        Alp

        Only 1 problem with this. They would have to have some instructional training to prevent problems such as the November E-cat melt down. Of Which I don’t think would have happened had Rossi been present.

        Also, it would have to be someone that Rossi could trust Not to Intentionally sabotage the Test. Likely this would require at least 1 of Rossi’s people present at all times for assurance of a valid test.

        These conditions would immediately lead to Skeptics calling Foul if said test show proof positive. The Technology is just to controversial for a clean outcome even if a Patent were issued. I suspect in the end it will be as Rossi has stated. Working products in the market.

      • freethinker

        Skeptics a “red herring”. Try to sell that to any in this forum with an objective mind. Maybe true skeptics are rare, as most people posing as such are inevitable poorly read up on the subject, blind to facts and subject to their imagination (or the wallet of someone paying them to be any of these things).

        We have all seen fierce argumentation from a number of skeptics, so no, that herring is not so red after all. Ironclad evidence, I think lies on the eyes of the skeptopathic beholder. The evidence is there – you need merely open your eyes.

        • Alp

          I am not interested in selling things on forums. I am interested in getting a really good and truly independent test of the ecat. That’s what enthusiasts should focus on instead of what skeptics and critics say. That won’t matter if either an ironclad test is done or a believable customer unrelated to Rossi is made available.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            And Rossi isn’t interested in what interests you. He wants to sell E-Cats.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            There is no such thing as an “ironclad test”.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        That’s not a very original defense of the skeptics. Looking purely at the facts, you can say there have been many ECAT tests. You may believe those tests or not, but at a certain point it is ridiculous to stay a skeptic.
        It’s not only Rossi that has something, but lots of people have done succesful LENR tests or have devices (celani, defkalion, mfmp (probably), mckubre, storms, Toyota, Mitsubishi, nasa, spawar, etc). We know LENR is real. If you can’t take that hurdle, than discussion becomes irrelevant. You cannot be swayed by facts.

        The latest ECAT test leaves little doubt of Rossi’s device and the upcoming six month test should take away any remaining doubts.

        You ought to know the problems with getting a patent for Rossi his ecat. He simply cannot allow an ironclad test as that would give away his secrets aka the exact internal workings of his ecat without the protection of a patent. But still you keep asking for this type of test, probably knowing that it is impossible for Rossi to fulfill. So this then becomes your basis to defend the skeptics?

        Skeptics are fine, but they must also believe in facts, otherwise you cannot have a discussion. It will go on forever because you can always find some outrageous test or pose an impossible requirement. Asking for your ironclad test is such an example of the latter, until a patent is granted. Then it becomes a reasonable request.

        • Alp

          How does an ironclad test give away secrets? The only difference is that it is not done in Rossi’s lab. And all the methods are specified by the testing team which does not include any Rossi friends and former associates. And all instruments are provided by the team, not by Giuseppe Levi. What would that give away?

          • Roger Bird

            Rossi has already been screwed over by perhaps Defkalion, and definitely be Krivit and the Republic of Italy and perhaps others. Who would you trust? Especially given the fact that he doesn’t have to trust anyone.

          • Omega Z

            Why does it matter Where the test is done.

            It’s quite simple to check the Lines to the mains to the control box. Unless they don’t trust the Utility Company.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Rossi must trust the testers, remember Defkfalion’s president saying “. I know what is in the reactor. I know everything. It was done with spectroscopy at Siena University of Padova (…) They tested the reactor without [Rossi] knew what they were doing, he continued.”

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            An ironclad test has already been done and another one will be done over the course of six months. But you and others will always find something to argue about.

            And would you give your world changing secret device to some unknown third party knowing that spies all over the world would be very interested in the contents of the device? It probably takes one spectrometer to discover Rossi’s secret catalyst, but you want him to hand over the device outside his control.

            You are still asking for the impossible.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        Btw: can you name a person THE WHOLE WORLD would trust (and be technically competent to test the device)? I think you have just stated another impossible requirement. Don’t you see how ridiculous this kind of reasoning becomes?

        • Alp

          You don’t need for the whole world to trust the testers. You could use a major national laboratory in their *official* capacity as opposed to one of their scientists working on his own. That could be CERN, Sandia, Oak Ridge, Navy Research Lab, to name a few. You could include Brian Josephson. I suppose Jed Rothwell could put a decent team of famous scientists together. He actually tried two years ago, IIRC, and Rossi would not allow him to do the test!

          Rossi has always used Levi, Kullander and Essen. Problems have been raised about all their tests, all of which were done in Rossi’s lab or factory. That’s not good!

          • Roger Bird

            Rossi doesn’t really care about your need for certitude.

          • Alp

            maybe not, Roger but then why did he go through all the bother of the current test?

          • Omega Z

            ELFORSK requested the test.

            Rossi just obliged them.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            Because ELSFORSK represents a large group of European utility companies.

          • Roger Bird

            I guess he cared about someone’s certitude.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            And you really think the whole world would trust the names of Josephson (spoken in favor of LENR, thus biased) or Rothwell (same problem)? See, two can play that game. There is no ironclad test and there is no “thrustworthy” person who everybody will trust and believe.

            Question: why don’t you believe the current test report now that it has been appended with updated measurement info?

            And why don’t you respond to the patent problems Rossi faces?

  • Roger Bird

    I am going to make a wild prediction. Eventually when any skeptopath admits that they were wrong, then the most likely candidates to do so will be the ones who did not come off being malicious.

    This should be a good lesson for skeptopaths and skeptics. They need to ask themselves “Why didn’t I see this coming?” And the answer should be, “Because you are unable to read social/soft evidence. You need to work on that aspect of your character/personality.”

    • Jesse

      Isn’t it obvious? They will merely place the e-cat on top of some here to fore unknown geothermal heat source thereby continuing the deception.

      • Roger Bird

        Jesse, you are supposed to put smiley faces after a post that is being facetious. Rossi could never know with this receiving company whether they were going to put the plant on short stilts. The receiving company would have to be part of the scam. Jesse, have you ever heard of Occam? If a company were to accept the plant, this would be another nail in the scam coffin.

        • Jesse

          OK, I Googled Occam. He makes my brain hurt.

          • Roger Bird

            Jesse, if you read the original Occam, then it comes across a little ironic. Here is the Occamized version of Occam: The simpler explanation is usually but not always the true explanation.

  • Omega Z

    Emmmm more then 1 way to skin a cat.

    What would it cost to build a couple 1Mw E-cats. Have them in operation for a year just pumping steam out into nothingness. All the 24/7 Manpower, The Electricity costs. LOTS. Several Million maybe? And still not a real World Experience.

    R&D-
    An E-cat Data collection under real world conditions. Any unforeseen problems can easily be deal with. Providing a working product to display to prospective customers.
    ALL being paid for by it’s Own Steam.

    WHILE- Totally protecting the IP & Secret sauce. It will all be under the Eyes of Rossi’s people.

    WHAT A Dumb, Lame Idea… NOT… Genius Maybe

    Those who have followed closely Know that Rossi has worked on a WiFi Data collection & IP security on the E-cat technology. To monitor for tampering & people trying to steel his secrets. Up to & including a Kill System. A Self Destruct.

    Over time I have noted posts on JONP about this system. One was a little more direct about whether it would be reliable or not. Rossi respond- Limited Results. I thought for a long time it could be easily circumvented by a determined Entity.

    This plan would eliminate the problem until he can effectively protect his IP & Sauce Legally with a Patent.

    ALSO- Did anyone catch the post while back to Rossi about bringing in the Patent Officer in the U.S. when the Shipped E-cat is up & Running. Rossi Responded that it was part of the Plan.

    This would put the Ball Strictly in the Patent Offices Court. Whether they Respond or not would open legal doorways for Rossi to Force the Issue. Regardless how the Patent Office Responds.

    Unless the Rules have changed in a way I’m not aware of,(And the rules have been messed with the last several years) An Observed Working Product is a Legal means to force a Patent. Theories be Dammed. They are not necessary. One Caveat- I Believe all Special Examining Costs must be born by the Owner- Rossi & Company.

    • Matt Werner

      It is not uncommon for new energy companies to install more efficient equipment, at their expense, charge the customer 75~90% of their current energy costs, and pocket the savings to recoup their upfront costs. Solar companies have done this, wind power…

      Even companies like Honeywell, Johnson Controls and Siemens will install higher efficency equipment (traditional tech) at a customer site “For Free”, give the customer a guarenteed energy price reduction and make good money that way. Many companies are afraid to take the risk, but the energy control companies know their equipment will pay for itself in the long run.

      This is not an amazing new marketing plan that Rossi and Co. have invented, but in their position it is a very good one to use.

      By the way, might this be Rossi’s big Birthday surprise that he was alluding to last week???

      • Roger Bird

        Thank you, Matt, for knowledgeable knowledge. It makes perfect sense.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      “This would put the Ball Strictly in the Patent Offices Court.”

      Maybe so, Omega Z, but you can’t patent an idea unless you describe it in detail. He can’t patent his “secret sauce” unless he reveals it.

  • Roger Bird

    Bruce Fast, please get over to you website and post about this. I don’t want to miss the opportunity to tell Craig Binns “I told you so.”

    Now, if this is the actions of a scam artist, then bring scam artistry on.

  • Ramon Prasad

    I will take the free e-cat, and look after it carefully. I have believed in “cold-fusion” since the early days of Fleishmann-Pons (1989), and am very glad that they have been finally vindicated.

    However I don’t believe that the Royal Society or any majority of physicists in the UK have crossed the Thomas Kuhn barrier onto the other side of the paradigm shift mental block. So my proposal will be to install the e-cat inside the Burlington Arcade (Piccadilly)and pipe the heat directly into Fortnam and Mason’s Emporium so that Fellows of the Royal Society can warm their toes directly against a radiator heated by cold fusion. This may even cause the setting up of a Royal Commission! So you see we will be leaders in development in this field.

    Payment will be guaranteed by HM Government once FRS members have had their toes warmed up enough.

    • Joe Shea

      Problem is, you have to be in Sweden to get the device. I hope a university will go for it.

      • Ramon Prasad

        They are missing a trick here. Stockholm, like The Burlington Arcade in Piccadilly gets cold in Winter. All you have to do is set it up in the most popular space, put a coffee and cakes cafe around it, advertise coffee,cakes and free heat. Make the e-cat run the coffee machine. Your publicity would be MEGA. You will have sold as many as you want in no time at all. Edison lit up a city to advertise his light bulb!

  • Roger Bird

    MarketWatch: “Energy stocks among the worst in the S&P 500”

    http://www.marketwatch.com/story/energy-stocks-are-worst-performers-in-sp-500-2013-06-10?link=MW_latest_news

    I would think that they would be among the best, with production serging and all. I wonder . . . . .

    • blaze

      Yeah, keep an eye on XOM. That should be a good indication as to how well LENR+ is doing.

      • Roger Bird

        What is XOM.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      “I would think that they would be among the best, with production serging and all. I wonder . . . . .”

      Roger, shouldn’t you have said, “Surging demand”? Surging production usually results in lower prices.

      • Roger Bird

        You’re right, sort of. Surging production will lower the price of the product. But surging production in the minds of the public builds confidence, and confidence means that they will like the company. I think.

  • Owen

    Think about this from the customer’s point of view. It would be a huge public relations bonus to be the first to publicly demonstrate LENR heated buildings. The company or organization involved would get endless free promo in hundreds of newspaper articles and TV appearances. They would be viewed as on the cutting edge, a leader in the field. This would give them a positive business image that’s hard to obtain with just paid advertisements. The positive public perception could be more valuable than the heat from the reactor.

    • Christopher

      True that

    • fortyniner

      True, and probably Rossi’s best hope, as well as being a good match to the rather inflexible characteristics of the 1MW unit.

    • Roger Bird

      And, of course, vice versa. If the E-Cat Plant was a failure, then the company would look bad.

  • Chuck

    This is an interesting, but peculiar business proposal. As I understand it, HydroFusion will install the 1MW unit. The customer pays for the electricity and the heat produced. This is where I get lost.

    Does the customer pay for *all* heat produced by the unit, or just the heat in excess of whatever electricity he supplies (and is already paying for)? Regardless, how does HF propose to measure the produced heat? Or will HF assume that there’s 1MW produced as long as the unit is supplied with power? What if the load isn’t constant–does the customer have the option of throttling the unit down to meet the load?

    As always, the devil seems to be in the details.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      I would expect that the customer pays for the net heat delivered. It would be Rossi’s and HydroFusion’s problem in producing that delivered heat at a profit.

      If they didn’t produce and deliver heat at a profit, then the entire exercise would be a failure.

      • fortyniner

        From a commercial POV, yes, but the publicity would be invaluable (assuming the details of running costs, teething problems etc. didn’t emerge).

      • Roger Bird

        Obviously the suppliers would have to use the local power available to run the plant. I doubt if they would want to run at a loss.

    • AB

      My interpretation is that Hydro Fusion / Rossi take the role of heat supplier. This would mean that the customer pays only for the delivered heat and nothing else.

      This would also mean that, if the plant is installed and delivers the promised heat, the pathoskeptics will argue that Rossi is once again faking input power (and thus delivering heat at a financial loss for the purpose of tricking the public).

    • Charles

      Uh, couldn’t Hydro just move the meters they used in the ECatHT tests?

      • Chuck

        Well, we’re talking about “wet steam” at 120C here, not photometrically measuring the color temperature of a hot body. So, no, I don’t think that would work.

        Note that energy delivered will depend on a number of factors, including the temperature of the delivered product, the temperature of the water input, the pressure of the generated steam (unless hot water was envisioned–and then we’d still need to know the pressure involved) as well as the flow rate of the water.

        And then, there’s the issue of what will be done when the demand for the heated water/steam is below the 1MW level–can the 1MW unit be controlled by the customer’s equipment?

        My point being that the more one delves into this proposition, questions start arising–perhaps not as exciting as LENR, but essential to a successful installation nonetheless.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    When Westinghouse and Tesla teamed up(at Niagara), didn’t they sell electricity?

    When Edison formed Commonwealth Edison, didn’t they sell electricity?

    • Jordi Heguilor

      Yes, but they started by PRODUCING electricity. I see a difference…

  • Bento
    • fortyniner

      Wow – the fightback commences. This is about the most ‘in your face’ pro-nuclear propaganda piece I have ever seen – it would be very interesting to know who exactly is behind it. If the film lives up to the comparison made in the trailer with Gore’s ‘Inconvenient Truth’, expect the most lavish serving of glossy disinformation and half truth for a generation.

      • Roger Bird

        Please, the film is not fighting back against LENR. It is fighting back against the current public distaste for nuclear. I know that this will come as a surprise to you, but not everyone knows what you know, not everyone has your perspective. 99% of the people involved in this film have no clue that LENR even exists.

        • fortyniner

          Roger, you have an uncanny knack of causing offense, when I’m sure that is not your intention. I am entirely un-surprised by your news that 99% of people are unaware of cold fusion, and have said much the same thing myself in the past.

          Among those who are aware of the imminence of cold fusion, and the threat it poses to them, will be top executives in the nuclear industry and others such as bankers who are heavily invested in this sector. If the nuclear industry has decided to use outright heavy-duty propaganda, it is probably for a number of reasons, one of which may be that they know that they are almost out of time. They can no longer wait for people to forget about Fukushima, and may have decided to go on the offensive.

          The hope will be to try to tie nuclear fission to the broadly successful ‘global warming’ sc*m, by persuading people that a ‘clean’ new ‘nuclear power v2.0’ is just around the corner – before the mass of people become aware of cold fusion. If successful they may calculate that this could undermine the impact of LENR when it arrives in the public awareness, by presenting an apparent alternative and attempting to share the moral high ground already claimed by the AGW herd.

          Given the public mistrust of nuclear fission, and the ongoing evidence of the inevitable consequences of using it, it seems unlikely that a film could have much effect, but perhaps they hope to emulate the success of ‘An Inconvenient Truth’ in establishing an untruth in the public perception on a massive scale. I’m sure they will have no trouble at all in assembling a battalion of ‘climate scientists’ to publicly support a fake consensus that nuclear fission is the only possible solution to the AGW ‘problem’.

          • Roger Bird

            But if they are promoting fissile nuclear, then how is that make the crowd afraid of LENR?

          • fortyniner

            That isn’t what I’m suggesting. I think that the intention is to use the CO2 myth as a vehicle for their own purposes, i.e., to try to brand fission power as the only ‘solution’ to ‘climate change’, and so automatically marginalise anyone (read cold fusionists) who come along a bit later and make similar claims.

            If they can establish that link firmly in the public mind, they can then take advantage of all the work already done to put the AGW myth in place, including the automatic vitriol aimed at ‘deniers’. This would potentially enable them to use similar distorted terminology to imply that anyone who opposes nuclear fission must also be a ‘denialist’ and ipso facto, be ‘for’ pollution, destruction of the environment, turning the planet into a dustbowl, etc. etc.

            This is how propagandists think – they don’t merely want to make over a tarnished image – they want to entirely turn such an image around. To do so they will use any leverage to hand in order to paint black as white, no matter how inappropriate in real terms.

          • fortyniner

            Roger – replied but auto-moderated.

          • Roger Bird

            Are you sure that you didn’t moderate yourself because my insights and ideas are so smashingly right-on?

      • GreenWin

        Not sure who financed the production, but Time Warner’s CNN is distributing. Looks like nuke industry suppliers are feeling the stranded asset syndrome. One positive for LENR is the lecture on overblown fears of the word “nuclear.”

        The rest is four purported enviros who have a nuclear epiphany. They offer no new solutions for radioactive containment or waste mitigation. Beyond Nuclear has its own pushback: http://www.beyondnuclear.org/storage/documents/Pandora%27s%20False%20Promises_Final_May13_2013.pdf

        • Roger Bird

          Too long and not relevant enough for me to read.

        • fortyniner

          Thanks, GW, good find. The author does a spectacular job of demolishing the propaganda onslaught that the film almost certainly heralds. It’s just a shame she seems to accept the CO2 myth without question.

          • GreenWin

            Further review of this well written “Nation” article reveals at least one film backer to be Paul Allen – Msoft.

            http://www.thenation.com/article/174733/pandoras-terrifying-promise-can-nuclear-power-save-planet

            And this brings up a fascinating, even exciting scenario. Mainstream Media (Time Warner etc)is positioning this film as a “schism in environmentalism.” We can expect a huge flux of impassioned debate ala the talk following screening at Dartmouth College in New Hampshire.

            On the one hand, the film over-hypes climate doom and inadequate renewable resources to justify “a second look” at nuclear. Expect this debate to escalate to fever pitch; a full-on shriek, mud sling, hair pull and eye-gouging ultimate fight throw down. Now, imagine this…

            WARNING: ICONIC IMAGINATION REQUIRED

            As the dust and smoke settles, there appears at distance an awkward figure; a skinny, tilting man… followed by an older, slow moving Panza. They amble forward, across the battlefield.

            What if we had a nuclear energy w/o ionizing radiation? Without radiative waste. Or stupefying, crippling costs. Is it possible we have the makings of a truce, brokered by the least likely of two characters, who have impossibly perfected the art of tilting at windmills?

          • Roger Bird

            Love your picture.

          • fortyniner

            I see your line of reasoning… but my intuition continues to point to a straightforward and cynical propaganda onslaught on behalf of the the nuclear industry, that will probably be picked up by a number of vested interests facing inundation. Obviously my imagination is somewhat short of iconic!

          • Roger Bird

            The environmental movement back towards nukes has been underway for several years now. So someone finally got around to doing a fancy video about it. In my opinion, this undoes your idea that it is part of an anti-LENR conspiracy.

    • AB

      Traditional nuclear power is dead. Catastrophic disasters are fortunately not common because the number of nuclear power plants is currently 434.

      If we decided to generate most of our energy via traditional nuclear power, then we would have disasters much more often because nuclear powr only accounts for less than 2% of our needs at this time.

      This would mean a Fukushima/Chernobyl/Three-mile Island at least once a year somewhere on the planet.

      There’s also still no solution for the radioactive waste. In short, scaling traditional nuclear power up as it stands would be a crime against future generations.

      • Sven Brus

        Conventional Nuclear development / roll out is not dead ,yet.
        There is a lobby who wants to implement a new, smaller form of reactors that would be placed under ground.

        While its supposed to be much “safer” (yes we heard that before) it would be deployed close to every mayor city.

      • fortyniner

        The title of the file may be apposite – when Pandora opened her box, all the evil in the world escaped. Even thorium reactors will not be able to save the industry, which is terminally tainted.

      • Roger Bird

        There is a solution to fissile nuclear waste. There was a TED talk about it with two MIT young people. I heard Bill Gates is getting involved. The solution is a money maker, so Bill got interested.

        • GreenWin

          The TWR reactor has distinct benefit over Gen 3 types, especially in burning spent fuel rods. But as with any fission-based system, there are great hurdles and safety issues (extra long fuel rods, sodium cooled, conversion/burn algorithm) as detailed in this Russian paper:

          http://arxiv.org/pdf/1207.3695v1.pdf

          Bill would be more intrigued with LENR if he was briefed.

  • artefact

    fail:

    Science of the Times: Frauds have no place in world of science

    http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2013/06/10/opinion/doc51b69bf21c380904902197.txt?viewmode=default

    • artefact

      From the text: “BRRRING! That’s the sound of the alarm that should be going off in your head right about now. The inability, or even reluctance, to have a third party verify results should be a clear indication that whatever this con artist is selling, it won’t stack up next to a pile of horse apples”

      • Roger Bird

        We live in a free country. The NY Slimes is free to say whatever they please, even when they are wrong. In fact, I hope that they keep it up.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Good boys and girls never question anything they’re told.

    • Martin Leonard

      The new mac pro looks like Rossi’s reactor. There could be injunction delays here.. but for who?

    • Roger Bird

      I have hated the New York Slimes for years. I am so glad that they said this. This will hurt them when it becomes obvious that LENR is real.

      • Redford

        Well actually it’s already done in a way, isn’t it? Putting Rossi’s as exemple of missing 3rd party replication while it’s actually the pretty big news it just happened do make them look silly.

  • Mike Cheek

    If I’m understanding it, it looks like this produces hot water at 120 C (248 F). 1 MW converts to 3,412,141 BTU/hr. If you assume 60F (15.6 C) water in (it would be in Sweden after all) then you can generate 18,150 lbs/hr water (36 gpm) or 8,231 kg/hr (8.2 m3/hr) of scalding boiling hot water. More water, of course, if your initial temperature is higher.

    Couldn’t be of benefit everywhere – but this could be an excellent match for a power plant to preheat boiler water makeup – or heating a building – or maybe a large laundry complex. It’s just not hot enought to be a good electrical generator – right now. But it could help a power plant be more efficient – still a valuable and worthwhile endeavor. If it is possible for them to refine design and increase output temp then a lot more possibilities can open up.

  • Gérard2013

    The dark forces are at war with all their powers against Andrea Rossi and others. The violence of their attacks is proportional to their fear of change. Relevance increasingly evident.

    The reality more undeniable that dethrones what we know in physics in general and nuclear in particular. For believers of deception, this is the last battle before their capitulation.

    Politicians will arbitrate in favor of this new energy. Politicians have already started refereeing for cold fusion and new fire.

    In French

    Les forces obscures entrent en guerre avec toutes leurs puissances contre Andrea Rossi et d’autres personnes. La violence de leurs attaques est proportionnelle à leur peur du changement.
    La pertinence de plus en plus évidente. La réalité de plus en plus incontestable qui détrône ce que nous savons en physique en générale et sur le nucléaire en particulier.
    Pour les croyants de l’imposture, c’est la dernière bataille avant leurs capitulations.
    Les hommes politiques vont arbitrer en faveur de cette nouvelle énergie. Les hommes politiques ont déjà commencé à arbitrer pour la fusion froide et le nouveau feu.

  • lenrdawn

    Roger wrote: “This should be a good lesson for skeptopaths and skeptics. They need to ask themselves “Why didn’t I see this coming?” And the answer should be, “Because you are unable to read social/soft evidence. You need to work on that aspect of your character/personality.””

    Interestingly enough, it would be exactly the same if it turns out to be the other way round. Suppose this turns out to be a scam, they’ll probably tell you that you are unable to read social/soft evidence. As always, it is all a question of perspective and the same things you now interpret as evidence in favor of Rossi change to the opposite if you look at them from only a slightly different angle.

    • AB

      I don’t agree with Roger on that.

      Assuming that the e-cat is real (which seems highly likely to me after the third party report), I think the pathoskeptics won’t see it coming because they jumped to their conclusion that it was fake far too early. Without having any concrete evidence that it was fake, I might add, which makes their conclusion faith based. Then add the human nature of desiring coherency in one’s own beliefs, and it becomes difficult for them to fairly evaluate new information which contradicts their beliefs.

      I’ve been following this since early 2011, and I remember exactly which group was 99% certain that they had the correct answer to the question whether it was real or not. It were the vocal pathoskeptics. In contrast, most other people expressed cautious optimism or interest, but no certainties. There was not one single “true believer” as far as I remember.

      • Roger Bird

        I never said that we believers started out as “true believers” that got lucky. I said that the skeptopaths have a poor social sense, like thinking that Levi would be delighted to throw his career away. Regular ol’ skeptics of the good mental health variety would obviously start out believing the old Coulomb-is-Monster paradigm and it would be very difficult for them to change. They would have invested a great deal of energy into trying to break through the Coulomb Barrier in their work or the work of people that they were close to. I started out believing that Coulomb-is-a-serious-bother, not being a nuclear physicist. And I tended to not take theory as seriously as observation.

        • lenrdawn

          “I said that the skeptopaths have a poor social sense, like thinking that Levi would be delighted to throw his career away.”

          Not sure that’s a bad assumption. People, even scientists, are throwing away their careers all the time. For love, for money, for simply making mistakes and trying to correct them somehow. Sometimes it is just blunder. I wouldn’t count Levi as any kind of social or soft evidence either way.

          • Roger Bird

            But a bunch of Levi’s from different countries makes for a “social sense”. And lots of people don’t throw their careers away. It is extremely rare. I can’t think of any instance except when the person thought that the truth demanded it, like Alfred Wegener.

          • AB

            I think somebody who believes that people are (knowingly) throwing their careers away all the time qualifies for poor social sense.

            This seems to be a version of the pathoskeptic pattern of thinking in which “most/everyone else” is somehow stupid/incompetent/delusional/etc, which is very handy because it can be used to “explain” everything and is difficult to falsify.

        • Jordi Heguilor

          ” I said that the skeptopaths have a poor social sense, like thinking that Levi would be delighted to throw his career away.”

          Scientists throw their careers away all the time, look at Pons & Fleishmann. If they had followed the proper procedure, they would have never received the backlash they did.

      • AB

        Also, one flawed heuristic used by the pathoskeptics is roughly the following line of thought:

        “The probability that it is a scam is far higher than the probability that it is real, therefore the e-cat is most likely false.”

        This is a statistical statement which has no relevance when it comes to evaluating whether an individual claim is true or not.

      • lenrdawn

        I see you point, but it, too, works on both sides. For instance something like

        “Then add the human nature of desiring coherency in one’s own beliefs, and it becomes difficult for them to fairly evaluate new information which contradicts their beliefs.”

        does apply to both sides. Even if Rossi makes obvious mistakes (like it happened in the past with statements that were either simply not true or typos), surprising amounts of energy are put in by some “true believers” to make some sort of far fetched sense of it or explain it away as hints at the catalyst or clever distractions. Just like many skeptics see indication of fraud behind even the most innocent remarks or perfectly expected delays like we’ve seen with the release date of the report where Rossi was simply a little too optimistic at first – as if that was a crime.

        You’re certainly right with the observation that many or even most skeptics made up their minds very early in the game (which doesn’t mean they are wrong, of course, but it certainly means they were expressing mostly unfounded opinions at the time).

        • AB

          Even if Rossi makes obvious mistakes (like it happened in the past with statements that were either simply not true or typos), surprising amounts of energy are put in by some “true believers” to make some sort of far fetched sense of it or explain it away as hints at the catalyst or clever distractions.

          I like concrete examples, can you give me some?

    • Roger Bird

      Good point, lenrdawn. I am not sure that I fully embrace it though. The skeptopaths that I “know” do have pronounced atrophies of their social sense. For example, one lives completely alone. We have not defined and discussed and I want to define and discuss “true believers” here. Since I have a true believer hanging on my every word, I will put more thought into it and do a post. There might very well be something wrong with true believers, but I doubt that it would be lack of a social sense. It would be letting one’s building of one’s model of the world be propelled by hope or wishful thinking. I’ll think about it.

      • Jordi Heguilor

        Oh, c’mon, Roger! Skeptopaths may be nit-picking, and sometimes not much fun, but it’s true believers who spend their life in their garages trying, for the millionth time, to reinvent the “water-powered” engine, the “magnetic” motor, the “plasma” engine.

        Their motto could be: “True believers. Brought to you by a complete ignorance of the Laws of Thermodynamics.”

        • Roger Bird

          Those people are I think a different breed than my sister-in-law, bless her heart. But I know the kinds of people that you mention. She would come to me and believe me when I told her that her perpetual motion vacuum cleaner would never work. She would abandon it based upon what I say. I think that the true believer wants to believe and that is what drives their belief. I suppose that the skeptopath also has wants that drive him/her. Perhaps they are the same animal in many ways. The skeptopath wants “it” to be untrue, and the true believer wants “it” to be true, and evidence is not really something that either wants to bother with.

  • Felis Ferens

    >Free to a Good Home

    Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project would be a good home

  • Dave

    It’s funny they’re willing to let someone use an E-Cat but were too scared about trade secrets to allow a real independent 3rd party test that they could have supervised 24/7 and required an NDA from the tester. Also, Rossi has claimed that a factory has been using an E-Cat to heat the building for years now. Why doesn’t he show off *that* installation?

    • Roger Bird

      Dave, Rossi doesn’t really care very much what we think, only that we be here to share his excitement.

  • ACG

    Is this not the same for all power companies? The wires and the pipes are free. You just pay for the current or the gas.
    So with the E-cat installed you will be paying for the electricity to produce the reaction and for the heat as well.

    Now if the E-cat came equipped with a heat to electric generator we could do some talking. I do not need a lot of heat, in fact i have too much heat as it is. What I need is electricity.

    Ah.. keep your e-cat and send a heat to electric generator my way.