Rossi on E-Cat Electricity Generation

Yesterday I put a question on the Journal of Nuclear Physics to Andrea Rossi regarding the production of electricity from the E-Cat. Rossi has talked a lot about using the hot cat to create steam at temperatures high enough to produce electricity efficiently, but as far as I could gather had not mentioned that they had been successful in their work.

This was my question:

It seems that for a long time you have been working on producing electricity from the E-Cat using the Carnot cycle – but you have recently stated that you have not been successful so far. Could you explain what have been the main difficulties – and how close you are to success?

Rossi’s response:

Sorry to correct you, but I did not say we have not been successful, I said we are working on it, with very positive perspectives.

I’m happy to be corrected here! Normally, when someone says they are “working on it”, it indicates to me that they haven’t yet finished the job – but that’s not apparently what Rossi meant.

Anyway, if they have been successful in producing electricity, it’s good news – especially if they have “very positive perspectives.” Electricity is much more versatile than pure heat, and if the E-Cat can produce electricity more efficiently than other energy sources it will make it a very attractive alternative. Having a cogeneration E-Cat plant that can produce both heat and electricity will give you the best of both worlds.

I hope we will be hearing more about these ‘very positive perspectives’ soon.

  • Stew

    Personally I don’t want to hear about any new perspectives. I’d rather finally see an E-Cat in action with a satisfied customer.

    • GreenWin

      Stew, this site is for news, information and discussion of all things E-CAT. That includes new and positive perspectives.

      I have waited half century for hot fusion to produce even ONE useful watt of electricity – yet after taking $$270+Billion from taxpayers, that brain trust has given us bupkiss.

      • DB

        Give it another 20 years, a few hundred billions… if we just completely rebuild our energy infrastructure we might actually have a centralized cleanish powersource in 30 years from now.

        Actually – Seriously for once…

        My friend tipped me of about this world congress for Hot Fusion. Authorities from all over the world will be there to discuss different projects, research etc

        I have a very bad budget and I want to spend it best way possible, possible that would be attending that congress…

        Maybe ill go there to sell some of my “Cold Fusion Revolution ” t- shirts 🙂

        Good idea?

        • Piero

          Go for it!

        • artefact

          I’d love to see their reactions

          • John-64

            They’d probably make jokes and laugh at him.

          • GreenWin

            It’d be MORE fun if AR has announced his electric plant and you could show video! – Then sell tee shirts.

          • DB

            Yes, true….

            Would be even more fun If I had something to show.

            Something that have the “wow” factor

          • DB

            Well I would also like to see their reactions. I could make some interviews and after a few minutes I change the subject to Cold Fusion 🙂

            @ John-64
            People tend to not do that when they meet me face to face.

    • John-64

      Me too, brother. Me too. It won’t be long now, probably less than 5 years.

  • Frank

    Genau das möchte ich auch,leider sind viele sehr skeptisch, weil es noch zu wenig Publick gemacht wurde.

    • eboireau

      you’re right. no or very few physicists support “evidences” of exces heat production ( because not shown by established means, nor reproducibly ), no or very few public and even private labs and organizations have show continuous interest in e-cat. still 2 years… Rossi explains this more and more by conspiration. this should sounds more than strange to supporters. if not simply a scam.

    • Mannstein

      What LENR research and development is being done in Germany which you are aware of? I have the impression Germans are either sitting on the fence or working behind closed doors.

      • MK

        I don´t know about universities. But this: seems to be an active company here in Germany.

        • DB

          How come you think they are “active”?

          Company does not answer phone and email domain does not seem to work.

          I did some research while passing through Berlin a few days.

  • JJE

    Do you think that the AR device can produce hot water and electricity at the same time ?

    • fortyniner

      Hello JJE.

      The answer is yes – that’s why these devices are very suitable for CHP plant. No conversion system for steam to electricity is more than about 35% efficient at present, and the remaining 65% or so will have to be dumped as ‘waste’ heat, probably in the form of hot water coming from a steam condenser.

      • Patrik

        That is not really true. I think you can find oil-fired power plants built already in the sixties that had an efficiency of approx 42%. It partly depends on the cooling water temperature to the condensor, for example will cold water increase the efficiency. Recent highly advanced power plants such as the Avedore 2 in Copenhagen have appoximately 50% efficiency, similar to the largest engines (20 MW or so). If we then turn to combined power plants (gas turbine followed by a steam cycle) the efficiency is close to 60 %. There may be examples of electric efficienies above 60%. An Australian high temperature fuel cell (2 kW) also has 60 % electric efficiency. An even higher total efficiency is possible and also common in district heating grids and industrial cogeneration. The overall efficiency in these CHP plants easily exceeds 90% when you use the waste heat, sometimes reducing the electric output due to higher water temperatures to the steam turbine.

        • fortyniner

          All true, but I was specifically referring to efficiency of steam to electricity conversion on a small scale, i.e., Rossi’s hot cat, and with waste heat recovery as hot water. The latter would result in reduced efficiency of any type of steam engine (but particularly of small turbines) due to condenser back-pressure. On that kind of relatively small scale, and recovering waste heat using a condenser, 35% would be considered a high efficiency.

          • GreenWin

            Peter, just reading your RE-printed comment on the Washington Post Wonkblog site. You are a rising star my friend, and we may just draft you as LENR spokesman of the Year! Congratulations!

          • fortyniner

            Thanks for the vote GreenWin – like many others here I try to spread awareness and hope that something occasionally comes of these efforts. We bloggers can possibly make a tiny difference, but I think it’s pretty clear that we will be largely whistling in the wind until a working CF plant is available for inspection by outsiders.

            If Francesco CH’s news turns out to be true, and if such an installation can be visited by technical journalists, then our little pipings will no longer be necessary – the proof will speak for itself.

          • GreenWin

            Since the earlier post w/link is in mod… a heads up Peter your comment To Washington Post’s Wonkblog has been featured today as LENR won the energy poll! Congrats, you’re almost famous!

          • fortyniner

            I’ve been almost famous several times. I try not to let it go to my head.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Carrier’s “MicroSteam Turbine Generator” claims better than 80% efficiency but it’s designed to scavenge waste heat in an existing steam distribution system. I don’t know if utilizing primary heat would change the calculation. Looks like a very expensive device.

        GreenWin previously commented on this device.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          Carrier’s savings/payback calculation implies an installation cost of about $500,000.

        • Patrik

          On the first page is says that it converts waste steam into power. 80% is then not the fuel to electricity efficiency as far as I can see it

        • GreenWin

          This device claims high efficiency based on pressure release circuit of excess steam, I think. i.e. without turbine the excess would be vented outside as pure waste.

          In any case it would make an excellent match for a E-Cat boiler which should produce steam at a cost of <$1.50/klb (1,000 lbs). This is a 90% reduction in cost of steam over traditional fossil-fueled boilers.

          The good news is these plants combined with absorption chillers can also produce cold air in hot climates. And warm air in cold climates. A green win.

      • Mannstein

        Not quite correct. Simens put into operation a combined cycle plant in Germany last July which has an efficiency that exceeds 60%. It uses a gas turbine and steam turbine in combination fired by natural gas.

    • Omega Z


      I believe it’s possible for Rossi to do both Right Now.
      It’s just a matter of doing it efficiently enough to cross the cost/benefit barrier.

      • DB

        Please explain a little bit what you meant.
        The electricity would have to compete in cost efficiency with other energy sources?

        • fortyniner

          At present, e-cats require an electrical input equivalent to 1/6 of the thermal output (primary heating by gas may become possible). If conversion efficiency, steam-to-electricity, is about 1/3 (assuming a simple boiler, steam engine and alternator) then 2/3 of the heat created is wasted, unless it is recovered by some means. This means that for every one unit of electricity input, output of electricity is only about 2 units, unless some of the ‘waste’ heat is also converted (see Iggy Dalrymple @ 12:57 above).

          A calculation therefore has to made taking into account the cost of the electricity required to ‘fire’ an e-cat, versus other heat sources such as fossil fuels that could produce equivalent electrical output. At the current 1:6 ratio (thermal), it does not look viable except perhaps in some special circumstances. However, the indications are that much higher ratios (COPs) are almost certainly possible.

          • GreenWin

            This is correct. The MicroSteam Turbine from Carrier schematic indicates the 2/3 waste steam flows to adsorption chillers in hot climate and hot water/space heating in cold climes.

            I am rather hoping to see an NG-fired E-Cat prototype soon, as this will address energy input demand from non-electrical source. And I suspect traditional power companies will be more receptive to a device that uses a fuel they are already very comfortable with.

          • Thinks4Self

            I would think without using the waste heat it would still be viable. COP is 6 so lets say input power is 2kW. You get 12kW out in heat. Convert to electricity with 1/3 efficiency equals 4kW of electricity out of the generator. 2kW goes back into the Ecat via battery or super capacitor and 2kW goes out of the system as usable power for other needs. If you can use the waste great! If not you still have 2kW of power with only the cost of the nickel and hydrogen fuel.

  • artefact

    From JONP:

    June 26th, 2013 at 2:50 PM
    This is the link of the interview with Andrea Rossi on 25/06/2013. The interview is in Italian. With Giulietta Bandiera and Dario Nencini on

    • artefact

      To thouse who understand: Is there someting interesting in it?

  • Italian Chemist

    What about a Stirling engine?! OK It has less efficiency, but why not?! It’s more disposable to common people and cheap, and if I have well understood the COP can be far more than 6…


    • Italian Chemist

      Sorry, it’s incorrect. Stirling engine can be far more efficient than a steam engine:

      So… Why not?!

    • Pedro

      Andrea Rossi on JoNP, June 27th, 2013 at 9:33 AM
      To the Readers expert in Sterling Engine or manufacturers of Sterling Engines:
      Please send your proposals for Sterling Engines to be coupled with the E-Cats ( power 5 kW and 10 kW).
      The best offers will be bought for testing.
      Ask more details to
      [email protected]
      Attention of Dr Andrea Rossi

      • artefact

        mhh that should be for the home e-cat? For the industrial e-cats a bigger stearling engine would be better.

        He should have stated the temperature the sterling engine gets from the e-cat to find a propper engine.

      • Deleo77

        He should just head over and talk to Dean Kamen, who lives in Manchester, NH, and has a highly refined working sterling engine.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          Kamen’s engine appears to still be in the bla bla stage..

          No info on how to buy one.

          • Ivy Matt

            “Kamen’s engine appears to still be in the bla bla stage..”

            For the E-Cat that should not be a problem.

      • Red_Baron

        Real alternatives to cogeneration of heat and electric energy exist and are available.

        This is one of possible examples.

    • Mike Cheek

      Thanks for the information on this Stirling engine. If there is a reasonable efficiency then there’s certainly the advantage of removing the entire water / stream circuit and water treatment, as when compared to a boiler.

      I still think a great initial place for the e-cat would be in a steam boiler power plant. You could easily cut a segment out of the water feed line and go ahead and heat the water up. You might need to still have a little gas firing for the superheater section, but everything else could be reused as is.

      The thing is to have as many people as possible looking at this. Many eyes see more than one pair of eyes. There are no doubt many ways the e-cat heat could be harnessed. But first a working system has to be produced and placed out in the “real world.” There’ll be plenty of time to look at the best ways of utilizing it if such a working system can actually be demonstrated.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        I agree, that means granting a patent, and why can’t a patent be granted, because Rossi has to include all his IP, which will be promptly stolen, which is the reason he does not include all his IP. He has taken the only course he can, treat his IP as a trade secret and manufacture the reactor. This means a slow roll-out, which is exactly what this world does not need.

        • LENR4you

          Combine the best things from Stirling engine and LENR energy. This is it:

          Highly efficient method of converting LENR energy into mechanical energy in decentralized or mobile small systems:

          The embedded LENR NiH Stirling Engine

          The device (100) has a piston (120) mounted and reciprocally moved in front and rearward directions in cylinders through operating gases that is stored in the cylinder. Pressure of the operating gases is temporally predetermined-changed using a temperature controller, and heating of the operating gases is performed by a reaction of a reaction metal with a reaction gas. The reaction metal and reaction gas are provided in a region closer to a closed front surface (114) of the cylinder, where the reaction gas is supplied with the cylinder by a feed line and formed by hydrogen.

        • MStone

          Why would it be a slow roll out? He has a major company backing him now.

      • kasom

        “real world”

        that is what counts, so wait…….

  • GreenWin

    Frank headsup The Washington Post is writing about the Cold Fusion Wonkblog WIN!!

    Featuring our own Peter Roe!!! Wow.

    • Barry

      Way to go Peter Roe!

    • fortyniner

      Looks like we’re busted though – Tom888 and myself are described as part of ‘the cold fusion crowd’!

      • Roger Bird

        They use labels to dehumanize us so as to cover the fact that there are real serious thinking human beings in the world who are convinced that LENR is real. If they can paint us as true believers and “LENR groupies” then they have greatly diminished our power as witnesses.

  • Sanjeev

    Results are out on WP, but the author believes this :

    Quote – It’s also the case that there is no such technology on the immediate horizon; researchers are far from turning cold fusion from a conceptual idea into a workable energy source.

  • BroKeeper

    This amazing video provided by Hans Rosling is the best and simplest data visualization on global survival and equitable economical distribution Mr. Rossi is philosophically and proactively fighting for using the cheapest, no-emission heat/electrical E-Cat:
    If this is not the next transitional Epoch of civilization what is?

  • Eric
  • artefact
  • artefact
  • Bruce Fast

    I hate to say this, but “carnot cycle” is a red flag. The carnot cycle is a theoretical construct that has never been achieved. The stirling cycle is a reasonably close proximity. Steam engines and steam turbines both use near proximations to the carnot cycle, but they are not carnot.

    It seems absolutely silly if Rossi is trying to re-invent heat to motion technology at this stage. Maybe a truly efficient true-carnot engine is within his grasp as a future development, but for now it makes no sense at all.

    More likely, however, Rossi is flashing the “carnot” word around out of ignorance, and/or the desire to sound, well, optimal.

  • Chuck

    Didn’t Mr. Rossi have a thermoelectric generator with a conversion efficiency of 20 percent some years back developed under a DoD contract?

    Why fool with Carnot cycle engines and a need for high temperatures? Why doesn’t he use an invention he already has?

    • MikeP

      From what was posted in the past, I believe that Rossi ran into production problems which prevented economic development.

      I never heard anything afterwards, so the issue must have been fairly fundamental.

  • Roger Bird

    I believe that this is the results of our efforts to promote LENR on the Washington Post site:

    CrowdSourced: Wonkblog readers are really excited about cold fusion

    This is really quite exciting. I have not read it yet ’cause I wanted to get the news to you’all right away.

  • Tyler

    fyi – there is a very good discussion on LENR/LENR+ currently happening here, responding to our voting:

    once again, the conversation is being dominated by uber-skeptic you know who.


    • Shane D.

      Lets face it… everytime this Rossi debate goes public we believers are going to lose as we are in that blog. All the uniformed have to hear from the informed skeptics is Rossis criminal history, how his tests weren’t vetted by peer review nor accepted by mainstream science, throw in a few choice comments from prominent critics, remind the reader of the fantastical claims of boundless (too good to be true) energy and debate over.

      Easiest job on the net is to win that argument. Hardest is to defend Rossi. Of course, Rossi makes it difficult for us with his actions.

      Only way we win the day is when a commercially working ecat is publicly displayed with the happy customer bragging about how well it works and how low their energy bills are because of the ecat.

      Til then, the MYs will have it their way.

      But when it comes to LENR… then I see some traction. Even many of the critics struggle to paint a bleak picture there. Just too many and too much for them to discredit it all. They try, but I think they are losing nonetheless. Plus we have some real names and institutions (NASA, SRI, UOM, etc.) to counter with.

      • LENR.FTW

        Think of it in terms of an advance team. I see huge barriers to the adoption of LENR. Barriers with lots of money behind them.

        We’re going to have to break the barriers down one brick at a time. Perhaps a US Partner goes public soon and the media and governments hop on board. I hope it happens that way.

        But I think it’s just as likely that there is a serious effort to discredit the technology and whatever company decides to run with it. We can soften the ground for L-Day. By presenting the evidence, we will persuade some reasonable people to investigate more and they will arrive at the same conclusions we have. All it takes is a few well-positioned people. An evangelist at Google. A Vice President at General Electric. A Congressman on a key committee.

        • Jim

          Concur, one mover could do it. Such is the way of the world.

      • Roger Bird

        Do not despair. Remember, we have the truth on our side. Remember that the most unlikely thing in human history took over the mighty Roman Empire in something over 300 years. But like that “conquest” of Rome we have to be willing to spend time explaining things to people who may not be rich and famous and powerful. And remember that skeptics who blow hard all day long are promoting our cause by bringing attention to cold fusion. Most people have no clue what cold fusion is. So, if they hear maryyugo bloviating, good! Someone new heard about cold fusion. And last but no least, you found your way here. I found my way here. This is because LENR is true and because we wanted to know the truth. I hardly think that a mere 1000 people want to know the truth.

        The AGW hysteria has been a very good thing because it has encouraged researchers to not give up and regular folk like us to keep looking.

    • cx

      Really hate how it always ends up an argument about rossi. There are other players in the lenr field.

  • HHiram

    It’s a frustrating situation. Because Rossi does not appear to have a theoretical explanation for *exactly* what is happening that will satisfy the requirements for an international patent, he can only protect his LENR process as a trade secret. And even if he could get patent protection for a process based on his theory, if in the future scientific research shows that his theory is not 100% correct then my understanding (correct me if I’m wrong) is that he could then lose that patent.

    This means his only option for protection is through trade secrets. I think most of us here who support his efforts understand that this is the reason why his pattern of behavior is so secretive.

    The reason why this is bad for electricity production is that he cannot *license* just the heat-generation process and then let another large company worry about generating electricity from the E-Cat heat. Instead, Leonardo Corp will have to secretly develop a complete heat-to-electricity device itself, and then provide the final device to customers. This is a much slower, much less efficient way to get LENR technology out into the world.

    • MStone

      Well, first, The patent office will not grant a patent on something without established scientific theory. Second, there are special rules to block all cold fusion stuff…kinda the same way there are special rules to block perpetual motion machines.

      Now, If e-cat works as advertised, and they achieve commercial success with the e-cat, you will probably see the patent office do a complete 180 and grant a special patent even without established scientific theory. It will be narrowly tailored to allow this specific cold fusion where, now, it is narrowly tailored to reject cold fusion. Trade secret is the only realistic way to proceed, in the current climate, until commercial success is achieved. Remember, Coca-Cola is still only a trade secret and it seems to be doing pretty well.

      Rossi’s theory is based on the upstart Quantum Ring Theory which is in direct competition with the well renowned Quantum Field Theory…both of which are an evolution of Quantum Mechanics. If Rossi is correct in his theory…not only would he have the holy grail of energy, but he would shift the entire direction of advanced Quantum Mechanics. The e-cat may be equivalent to the star-shift pictures taken at the corona of our sun to prove general relativity.

      Also HH, I think Rossi is working with a large generator company to build the turbines for his e-cat. I would love to see pictures of an e-cat turning a turbine.

      • Roger Bird

        If we are serious about LENR being real, then we must at least be open to the fact that there is a new physics, even if we don’t yet know what it is. And that this new physics will include the data points of the old physics and the data points the we get from LENR and perhaps other phenomena.

      • Tappanjack

        Plus 1

      • GreenWin

        +1 Thanks for this insight.

        • Barry

          +1, same here.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        “Rossi’s theory is based on the upstart Quantum Ring Theory” Source for this? I understood that QRT is Guglinski, not Rossi, G. just publised his work on JONP.

  • GreenWin

    The Good news about the Washington Post poll win for LENR is it puts Rossi and E-Cat infront of thousands of new people. The media blackout has ignored Rossi’s work since the October 2011 demo attended by SPAWAR. Through sheer persistence and good will, the WaPo Poll reflects a large and growing demand for new technological solutions.

    The same 3-4 shills are working the comment sections but the majority of readers don’t bother or have time to read lengthy diatribes by the likes of skeptpaths. Congratulations to all who voted and to Washington Post for recognizing what is fast becoming a “People’s Energy Movement.”

  • James Smithurst

    I don’t believe that Rossi has invented a device that can produce heat in excess of the energy that goes into it. This is not because of scientific evidence (or lack thereof) but because of his behaviour in public, what he says, his criminal history and his broken promises.
    I was wondering for some time how he’d get himself out of trouble and avoid possible legal action by misleading the public and investors. By him announcing that he was no longer in control of the business side of things, this got him off the hook for now. Any delays, inconsistencies and failures can now be blamed on his anonymous business partner. He has washed his hands in innocence.
    I am sure that Rossi is working on a strategy to further distance himself from the eCat in the hopes of fading into forgetfulness.
    Sorry for the believers out there. I also wished there was free energy. But to date, research has not yielded any definitive and reproducible proof of such a device.

    • Kim

      This is not because of scientific evidence (or lack thereof)

      But to date, research has not yielded any definitive and reproducible proof



    • Lukedc

      Sorry for the believers out there. I also wished there was free energy.

      Ahhh sorry James but you need to go and do your homework.

      Whoever said that the energy was free? It takes thermal power input to the lattice to liberate the energy through the LENR+ effect. The exact environment that this occurs in, and by which catalyst the effect is enhanced is the only roadblock to complete understanding and control.
      LENR+ is not free my friend. Far from it.

    • Mike Cheek


      I think this latest published test has the appearance of legitimacy, at least. Some of the authors are engineers at legitimate universities. Reading through the report it certainly has a *feel* of begin written in good faith. As an engineer these people did discuss Grashof and Reynolds numbers. Not proof mind you, but I cite as an example of why this gives an appearance of legitimacy. On the other hand, it was not published in a peer reviewed journal.

      Your objections are all valid. And, extraordinary claims need not be believed without extraordinary evidence. Nevertheless, on the basis of this above mentioned test, as well as the previous video of the test of the first unit in Italy before it was shipped out (it certainly looked like a real test) – this is keeping me curious.

      And yes, there are some here who seem to believe the e-cat will auger in a Utopia. No – I’m not buying that. But the fact that some people are over enthusiastic doesn’t *necessarily* mean the technology under consideration is illegitimate. Nor does Rossi’s history *necessarily* mean his current invention is totally illegitimate. But yes, this previous background should keep one on one’s toes. But it has also been pointed out, rightly I think, if Rossi is a scam, why hasn’t he asked the public for any money?

      You might say he’s too smart for this, he’s fishing for big fish, for big pocket investors, and ignoring the minnows like you or me. But – most investors, I think, are rather too street savvy to be taken in by a scam artist. So there’s that.

      Finally, maybe the whole thing is a grand scam, a grand “sting”, if you will. If so, when everything comes apart, I will give Mr. Rossi a tip of my hat. It will have been quite a ride.


    • Barry

      James it’s hard to accept your opinion science compared to what is really happening. I’m afraid it’s you I don’t believe.

      • Roger Bird

        Barry. Yours is the aikido of science. Outstanding comment!

  • Sanjeev

    Looks like many people tried to post the WP news and all went to mod. Now suddenly all appeared at once !
    Its a good and surprising exposure to lenr for many.

  • theBuckWheat

    “…and if the E-Cat can produce electricity more efficiently than other energy sources it will make it a very attractive alternative. …”

    The efficiency metric that counts is economic rather than energy.

  • Francesco CH


    • Barry

      Is this for real Francesco? If so what are the details?

    • Adam Lepczak

      Could you share location of the plant?

  • Ake

    Check this project:

    How to get Rossi partner and this guy to talk?