Reasonable Doubts?

After two-plus years of publishing E-Cat World I have noticed a change in the tenor of the conversation regarding LENR — more specifically LENR+, the high powered brand of LENR that Rossi and Focardi introduced in early 2011. For a long time it seemed that we were in detective mode here, looking for every sliver of information that could corroborate the validity of the extraordinary claims. It seemed that early on, many people were hopeful of the technology being real, but couldn’t bring themselves to fully get off the fence.

It feels like things have changed now. The independent E-Cat test report and the recent Defkalion live demo appear to have put a lot of concerns to rest regarding the reality of the LENR+ phenomenon amongst those who have been following the story closely with an open mind. (I’m not referring here to those hardened skeptics who seem to have an irrational emotional objection to LENR+)

These are just my impressions gathered from reading what people on this and other sites are saying, along with talking to trusted friends on the topic. But I am wondering if I am right on this, and would like to submit to the collective wisdom of the ECW readership if there are still reasonable doubts out there that should prevent us from saying “case closed — it’s real, and let’s move on to the next stage which I believe is sharing the news with the 99.99 per cent of people who haven’t heard about this story which I feel deserves the attention of people everywhere.

  • Hampus

    The last piece of information that is still lacking are a sold LENR+ device. When Andrea Rossis factory start to mass produce ecats most skeptics will be silienced.

    • Mannstein

      One can’t expect instant results in terms of a commercial product if the underlying science has not been elucidated. The basic understanding of the underlying LENR reactions unfortunately is lagging behind the experiments. We won’t see a product hit the market for at least 5 years if not longer.

      • Gerrit

        “hit the market”

        I do not think that I will be able to buy a LENR generator at Home Depot within the next 5 years.
        My local utility will not start offering me LENR energy in the next years.

        But I do think that within the next 5 years industrial prototypes or industrial pilot devices will commence energy production.

        I can imagine a paper mill will use the LENR produced heat in their process. You could then follow their product and with some research you could buy a magazine that was, at least to some minor extent, produced with LENR energy.

        In that way it would hit the market.


    This is a great question. Everyone’s threshold for “reasonable” is different… some dramatically so. For me, believing in multi-pronged, coordinated fraud among an ever widening circle of people and companies that consistently escapes detection by professionals is not reasonable.

    The one nagging doubt that I harbor that I consider reasonable is the lack of confirmation of industrial partners, of which there are now supposedly many between Rossi and Defkalion. I would have expected such big Earth-saving news to generate detectable excitement and probably a few leaks, NDAs not withstanding.

  • Roger Bird

    For me, the May 2013 3rd party report has gotten me off the fence with regard to LENR++ (insert the image of that glowing cylinder here) and Rossi. But as Hampus indicates, whether we have a commercial product or not is still an issue. There may be control, other technical, and marketing issues yet. But I am certain that we will have a commercial product in the not too distant future.

    • Mannstein

      The control problem will be solved sooner or later. Sooner if physicists come up with a solid theory for LENR which will speed up engineering development. Without a theory it will take longer something akin to Edison developing the light bulb. He tested hundreds of materials for a durable filament material until he stumbled on carbon. Theory guides experiment decides.

      • Roger Bird

        “Theory guides, experiment decides.” And trial-and-error lallygags.

  • elasticbucket

    The nexus between believers and those who don’t is arguably now mostly illusory, however, the devils advocate and the devils progeny will probably be there forever – something akin to argumentative flat earthers. Even when the LENR legacy is utilized to cook their breakfasts, as they watch on.
    Nor should I be overly concerned with the 99.99 % uninitiated either, the attrition rate of those without knowledge of LENR and non believers alike will soon become a flood when commercialization of LENR becomes an indisputable and easily demonstrated science/product, and not “just” (in the sense of JUST being able to clear the hurdle) an alternative source of energy. Remember the horse at the drinking trough, given time a thirst will inevitably develop.

  • Zedshort

    The last Rossi reactor test, touted as independent, failed to make a complete accounting of the total energy into the system. In which case it was worth little. The Defkalion test was a not independent in any way and does not convince as the data displayed may have been mocked up. The evidence I see is still too anecdotal but is piling up just as evidence for ball lightning accumulated over the years and was finally accepted as real.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Even though the reactor glowed red-hot, yellow-hot, and bordering white-hot, how do we know this was not something similar to “spontaneous human combustion”? Why were no paranormal investigators present?

      • KD

        You right.“spontaneous human combustion” it might be not paranormal but LENR effect and should be investigated from this point of view.

      • Zedshort

        I’ve no clue as to what you are attempting to say. If you have a rebuttal based on physics please let me hear it.

        • Warthog

          Perhaps you should first explain exactly how the Rossi test “failed to make a complete accounting of the total energy into the system.”

          Precisely what got left out???

          • Zedshort

            The device used to measure the energy (electrical) into the system was capable of only measuring the alternating current. It was not able to measure the direct current. That means that in the accounting of the total energy into the system there was missing a very important term. The value of that term is a big unknown. It is forgivable to under count the energy out of the system as when you do that you are then erring on the side of conservative calculations of COP and energy density, but it is unforgivable to completely leave out a term from the input side. As I understand it they began with some simpler device during the test and set it to one side as it was producing readings of energy into the system that were higher than expected. That is very suspicious. The failure on the part of the experimenters to make a total accounting of the input energy smacks of shoddy workmanship.

          • Warthog

            Apparently you missed the addenda from one of the principals which indicated that they DID measure DC. Just not with the device you are mentioning. I believe Levi made the comment to that effect.

      • Roger Bird

        LOL, Iggy, you make my day.

      • Thinks4Self

        Are you saying LENR should have Ockham’s Razor applied to it in a laboratory type of setting?

    • Mannstein

      Next time there is a demo and a skeptic is allowed to participate by bringing in his own measuring instruments I suggest they not be used. How do does one know that the skeptics won’t sneak in ammeters and voltmeters which have been modified to give false readings?

      • Thinks4Self

        Simple you have them measure a known quantity like a light bulb or resistor to check for calibration. Not very difficult.

  • Carl Nelson

    I was looking for any mention of Defkalion Green Technologies at the NI Week 2013 website. Couldn’t see any mention of a demonstration or registration of the company. Is there any REAL confirmation that Defkalion will be there; that they will conduct a second demonstration?

    I have only seen articles at PESN or from Jeanne Manning’s article on her visit to Defkalion that claim another demonstration will be conducted.

  • blaze

    Wow! There are plenty of reasons to have reasonable doubts until there is a well known, reproducible experiment which shows a COP > 1.5

    Defkalion may merely be trying to copy Rossi’s scam playbook here, which is to dupe old / near retirement professors who’ve spent their whole lives trying to make LENR work.

    I also thought the Defkalion demo wasn’t all that strong. So many issues: 1.6 tesla field, Luca Gamberale vanishing for the US demo, muddled steam output .. Plus there was the CEO’s wild claims about massive licensing costs and all these big companies looking at their tech. That seemed ludicrous to me given their track record and smelt very bad. it really didn’t seem entirely convincing to me.

    That being said, there are a lot of good reasons to hope. The biggest for me right now is the arvix may report by the 7 professors. I am still unsure about Rossi, but that eCat might actually have done what they thought it did.

    Anyways, all this, it’s still very far from ‘case closed’.

    • Pedro

      Frank asked if you had any reasonable doubts. The operative words here are reasonable and doubts. Of course, things can always be presented better, and there can always something be wished to be better, but for me non of your “issues” with the DGT demo amounts to reasoble doubts.

      • blaze

        There is always reason to hope and always reason to doubt. Some people are all doubt, some are all hope.

        The trick is to be a calculated balance of the two.

    • Mannstein

      The resident skeptic Mats at last week’s Defkalion demo was given total freedom to test and examine the premises for hidden power supplies both DC and RF to expose possible fraud. He was even challenged to cut the power supply wires for possible hidden power sources after the demo was completed. He never took up the challenge and at the end had to admit he discovered no fraud. Case closed. If the pathological skeptics want to continue tearing down LENR demonstrations best to ignore them. Even if an independent third party test were conducted it would hardly be sufficient to change their minds. Time to move forward.

      • GreenWin


  • fortyniner

    No doubts as to whether LENR+ is real and that both Rossi and DGT have working prototypes. Plenty of doubts concerning how high stable COPs are at the moment, if the units can run for extended periods, if usable heat can be extracted without damping down the high-output models and so on (as yet).

    Some commenters here might say ‘case closed’ but I agree with Hampus, and think we would all be best advised to keep quiet until a working ‘pre-production’ unit is available for qualified inspection and testing – whether this is a complete CF generator, a marine boiler or whatever. Still some way to go I think.

  • John Loraditch

    If Albert Einstein were alive he would be of the say whether this heat from ColdFusion was real or not I guess part of the problem is that we don’t have an Albert Einstein or maybe we do does anyone have any thoughts about who could be an unimpeachable source that would say whether this is or is not real

    • Felix Fervens

      >who could be an unimpeachable source that would say whether this is or is not real

      Ernest Moniz, the Secretary of Energy, could do it, but I’m not holding my breath for him supporting LENR.

    • AlainCo

      Albert Einstein already andwered to LENR:

      serious… he found no theory, but did not question the facts..
      Anyway QM was not so much normalized for him… he was a pioneer. and a bit skeptic in a way…

      “What is truly mind boggling about this tale is that Einstein simply looked at Sternglass’ data and then immediately realized that the observed neutron production must involve some sort of many-body collective effects with electrons (which we utilize with great explanatory power in our theory of LENRs).

      Can you believe it — what a mind Einstein had —- even at that late stage in his life! At that point (1951), very few physicists really had any idea of what collective effects were about. Well, Einstein surely did.

      Unfortunately, Ernest’s bizarre experimental discovery was simply not pursued any further. In the end, Sternglass didn’t heed Einstein’s (and Bethe’s) strong advice to “be stubborn” and publish the deeply anomalous results.”

      this experiment should be re-done.”

      • Pedro

        Thanks for sharing this nice background info!

      • daniel maris

        Fascinating. LENR promoters should make use of this background – it could click with the general public.

      • Gerrit

        The Reifenschweiler effect is another interesting experimental result.

        The radioactivity of Tritium is reduced by about 30% (it decays at a slower rate) when the Tritium is absorbed in Titanium and heated between 160-275°C. Go over that temperature and the radioactivity goes back to normal.

        Hendrik Casimir (of the Casimir-effect) supervised those experiments and urged Reifenschweiler to publish these results.

        Where have all the good scientists gone ?

        To my knowledge nobody ever bothered to replicate these experiments.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    The only lacking piece of evidence is a company buying/leasing an E-Cat or its energy and saving or making money in the process.

  • Sophareth Camsonne

    LENR-CF enters disguised in Nature,a highest sci journal with Science,thank to B Josephson,a Nobel Price in Physics


    In my opinion, LENR+ is real Further, I believe control is still an issue in the LENR field. Control theory is a tough field but control of linear systems is a well developed field. Gain(COP), feedback elements, phase shift, damping, etc is very difficult in non-linear systems and LENR seems to be basically very random in its output.

    Nevertheless, the question could be put to rest by whomever the military unit is that allegedy has Rossi’s first 1MW unit or by the possessor of his first alleged American Industrial Unit. The NDA agreements will forever leave the actuality in doubt. A wide open display of a working unit would put it all to rest. Even then, Mark Twain? had it right, believe nothing of what you hear and only 1/2 of what you see.

    A sudden dumping of multiple units for sale in the open market, Wal-Mart, Lowes, Industrial power peddlers, etc. would also settle the issue.

    • Warthog

      The key critical term in your comment is “…control of LINEAR systems is a well-developed field.” My educated guess is that LENR is anything BUT linear. I expect STRONG non-linearity. I concur that control is probably very much “THE issue”.

      • Anonymous Reader

        LENR is not linear, it is exponential.

        Unfortunately to get the COP>2, the device needs to be operated in the portion of the heat-in power-out curve that is dynamically unstable. This is what is slowing down both Rossi and DGT from shipping devices, plus the fact that they cannot make the fuel powder charge each time reliably as it depends on trace impurities and surface structure to make the heat. They each plan to eventually solve it, but when.

        I’m still dissatisfied with both the DGT and Rossi (Levi et al.) demos, but that is simply because they are being obtuse. Both demos need additional information to calculate the energy density and to fully rule out “cheating”. I don’t think they are cheating, but they hold back enough information so I can’t rule it out. I find this very annoying.

  • AB

    Either LENR+ is real or not.

    In regards to proving it real, we’re not quite there yet, but I suspect things will move quickly now.

    The possibility of LENR+ being exposed as complicated fraud seems vanishingly small. People who argue about hidden wires and the like are not seeing the forest for the trees (either because they are very selective in collecting information, or because they are simply unaware of all the information).

  • kasom

    I think, no one here doubts LENR as a fact, but as a controllable process with huge net effect in real life and not in a lab.

    There is reasonable doubt as long as no one of the candidates has put the huge amounts of excess heat in heating something really big like a house or a pool over months.

    Comparison of the bills for 1 month before and after should eliminate doubt without sophisticated measurement. The grid’s power meter would tell enough.

    But nobody does. So there is doubt.

  • Adrian Ashfield

    Previous demos made the E-Cat more likely to be real than not. The Elforsk and Defkalion demos have removed lingering doubt.

    Hampus, the real pathological skeptics won’t give up that easily. When LENR devices reach the market they will claim it is mass delusion 😉

    • Hampus

      Pathological skeptics will not change their minds but thankfully they are very few. Most people will just ask is this LENR device any better then my current heat and energy source, when they hear that LENR is about 10000 times better they will buy it.

      Most people will probably not even care how it works or how it will effect the world, they will just be happy that they can cut their energy bill.

      Its like when the computer and internet came out, most people didnt care and now almost everyone have a cellphone in their pockets and still people dont care, now they are just used to it.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    George Egely – Nano Dust Fusion experiment via vortex

    But couldn’t the “iron” actually be magnetic carbon?

  • Felix Fervens

    >next stage is sharing the news with the 99.99 per cent of people who haven’t heard about this story which I feel deserves the attention of people everywhere

    Was amazed that only 700 people in the whole world watched the Defkalion demo. If/when LENR breaks thru, it will be for us like having attended the original Kittyhawk tests firsthand.

    Even my more learned friends have no idea this technology is there–and when informed they are 100% certain it is fake, sight unseen. Yes 99.99% ignorance is about right.

    Frank, your work is cut out for you.

    • Fibber McGourlick

      Perhaps we need a T-shirt emblazoned with the declaration… “I was at the COLD FUSION KITTYHAWK”, referring to the Rossi and Defkalion tests, of course.

      • Steve G


  • Robert

    I think after two years of following Rossi here in Italy, that if this low cost energy is real, to save his life he better puts the complete formula and blueprint of the lenr module on the Web and make it open source. Otherwise friends of putin or some middle east lobby will cut his throat….

  • daniel maris

    Well I think there are still reasonable doubts. Neither Rossi nor Defkalion have really been in any sense orthodox businesses – they both have a lot of explaining to do. Perhaps that’s just me. I am not a believer. I see the negative side of the balance sheet as well as the positive side. But I have always rejected negative scepticism, the tyranny of the peer review system and the stunning failure of the mainstream media to take any interest in this story.

    I look forward to the next stage – a convincing account of a prototype working in an ordinary setting.

    • Zedshort

      Main stream media is too busy gushing over the baby.

      • Hal

        Who’s that then?? You’re surely not talking about the prince of the realm of what is at the moment a divided UK and which by the time he accedes (60yrs+) will be a 3rd world island off the coast of Europe 🙂

        • Roger Bird

          I wonder why it is that these Windsors live so long?

          • Zedshort

            Slathered with money from the get-go?

          • Roger Bird

            There is no correlation whatsoever between wealth and longevity for anyone from the lower-middle class to the Queen of England, and to even contemplate that possibility causes me to doubt your good sense.

          • Zedshort

            Really? Provide me with a link to prove that. My good sense is in doubt? Oh, posh! By whom?

          • Roger Bird

            Zedshort, I doubt your good sense. Do you really think that the Windsors have better health than I do because they are enormously richer than I am? The Shah of Iran was at least as rich as Chuck Windsor, and the Shah died of cancer prematurely. His money could not save him. His lack of a good perspective killed him. If he had been living according to a perspective shared by myself and Chuck Windsor and others, the Shah may not have gotten cancer in the first place and he would most certainly have had a better chance to survive.

            I can’t give you a single link that will change your mind. But if you study health with an open mind like you studied LENR, you will eventually realize that I am right. If a person is not getting enough to eat, then their health will be damaged. But since when did that happen to people in the Western World?

            Check out The default graph will show that people who do not get enough to eat have low longevity. But among rich countries, the USA is dead LAST in longevity and very close to first in wealth per capita.

          • daniel maris

            Homeopathy…that answer really riles some people!LOL

          • Roger Bird

            daniel maris!!!! You and I are on the same page. You win the gold star and the cigar and the gold cigar and the smoking star!!!

          • Jim

            +1 all the way

          • Roger Bird

            I am afraid to ask but I will anyway, all of the way which way, for or against homeopathy.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            Longevity is a reptilian trait. :>)

          • Roger Bird

            I am not sure why that is funny or insightful, but I trust you Iggy enough that I laughed anyway. (:->)

          • Ted-X

            The Royals use homeopathy and they are open about it. It works for them. Their life expectancy is usually high. 🙂

          • Ted-X

            The Royals use homeopathy and they are open about it. It works for them. Their life expectancy is usually very high. 🙂

    • GreenWin

      A reasonable interpretation of mainstream media failure is to consider the enterprise under intelligent control. According to a growing band of high brow scientists this is ever more possible:

      It would explain much of the misanthropic behavior we see in academia, industry, and government.

      • hempenearth

        That study is by Silas Beane. He added the “e” to his surname because he didn’t want to be known to be related to Mr Bean.

        • Greenwin

          Don’t forget the other two authors: Zohreh Davoudi, Martin J. Savage from University Washington. Beane receives funding at Inst. Nuclear Theory from US Department of Energy.

    • Anonymous Reader

      “Neither Rossi nor Defkalion have really been in any sense orthodox businesses ”


      Both are based on a country license model, before the device has been proven, that draws a red flag for me.

      And Rossi up until recently has been essentially paranoid talking about Snakes.

  • Does somebody know when the paper ofs Kim’s theory will be published?

    • khawk

      Dr. Kim has been publishing papers on this subject for the past 15 years – I think he is up to 10 or so. My impression is that he thinks that DKG is the correct vehicle to help him prove some of his theories. Hope that Rossi finds somebody this credible in academia to help him out. He would have enjoyed hero status at ICCF last week if he would have shown up.

  • Preston

    The demo was really cool, but the most compelling evidence for LENR is at MIT, Peter Haglestein’s class. They have a canned demo “nanor” that is very compelling. It’s pretty much everything you could want to prove LENR, and they let anyone come and check it out.

    Everyone thinks about the impact this will have on the oil and gas industries, but even sooner it’s going to hit wind and solar. Who would go ahead with a wind or solar project if this is coming? You think Solindra was bad for Obama? You can’t expect any politician to take the lead on promoting this, it will only make enemies on both sides.

    Because of all these impacts, the press will shy away from it also. I don’t expect news of this to be widely accepted until someone starts shipping devices.

    • Thinks4Self

      I agree, the best political move on LENR/Cold Fusion would be to ignore it until it is widely available for sale. Then embrace it and pretend you invented it, like Gore.

    • GreenWin

      Preston, you may be right about most politicians. They are counseled to avoid annoying monopolists like utilities and fossil interests. But the cat IS out of the bag and a smart politician will take hold of the economic expansion LENR brings.

      For example, what politician would not want to be the face behind introduction of technology that lowers home electric bills by 80%?? What politician would not want a plank opposing big corporations that force us to rely on fossil fuels? It is a matter of political spin. There is very good spin to be had with LENR+.

      And there is a political fortune in clean, green, abundant energy. The slow, steady adoption of LENR+ as the solution to global warming, nuclear waste, carbon pollution, environmental protection, resource conservation, access for poor nations, etc, etc. – is underway already.

      The public will rightly want to know why media, politicians, pundits, scientists, conservationists, humanitarian NGOs sandbagged these solutions.

      • Anonymous Reader

        Q. “what politician would not want to be the face behind introduction of technology that lowers home electric bills by 80%??”

        A. The politician that just took $50 million of campaign contributions from BIG oil, BIG gas, or BIG electric.

        Our political economy in the U.S. is bought and paid for by the Koch Brothers and their ilk in BIg oil.

        It is a bad system but we cannot change it without an amendment to the Constitution that says ZERO for campaign contributions + equal access for all candidate websites.

        Who is going to get this amendment done?

  • Mason

    I am a new follower of the LENR phenomena.

    From one perspective, I find the question to be inappropriate given the results generated since March 1989. The number of experimental replications, peer-reviewed publications, reputable governmental/educational/private entities which have grown in number since that time point in only one direction or to one answer, IMHO.

    For me, the reasonable line of questions now look like:
    1. What is the scope of the global impact?
    2. Which ‘Players’ are impacted and how are they impacted?
    3. What are the reasonable probable responses to LENR for each ‘Player’?
    4. How are each of these ‘Players’ likely to respond given their interests?
    5. How best are the entrepreneurial/industrial LENR ‘Players’ to pursue successful implementation of LENR in the face of the above potential responses and market demands in this “Game of the Millennium”?

    To argue with the skeptics in the face of this level of information is to be distracted and caught up in an emotional web of doubt rather than appreciating the real and appropriate emotion of Joy arising from such a profoundly powerful solution.

    • Roger Bird

      Mason, are you sure that you are new here? (:->)

      Good post.

      • Mason

        I read at Mark Gibb’s 5/20/13 piece on the E-CAT 3rd party testing Saturday July 6, 2013. That is when the ball started rolling for me.

        I’m that new.

        Out of curiosity, can you recommend a discussion forum where my cited questions could be fleshed out into a framework of a good analysis? Similar to in simplicity and impact?

        • artefact

          Welcome Mason!
          I think for some of your questions you can find some answers on . AlainCo made some good analysis.

        • Gerrit

          Mason, and anyone else who is “new” here, just post the questions and thoughts.

          I’ll do my best

          1. What is the scope of the global impact?
          -> multilayered.
          a) energy will become cheaper, enabling cheaper everything and enabling things that were “too expensive”
          b) the world will see that big science is a worthless institution comparable to big banking.

          2. Which ‘Players’ are impacted and how are they impacted?
          -> my feeling is that the big players (==big oil/energy) will buy into this technology and maintain there position.

          3. What are the reasonable probable responses to LENR for each ‘Player’?
          -> lobby the government (they are good at it)

          4. How are each of these ‘Players’ likely to respond given their interests?
          -> they will embrace it and use it to generate profit

          5. How best are the entrepreneurial/industrial LENR ‘Players’ to pursue successful
          -> dump the market with their devices.

          • AlainCo

            for 5, one solution is to organize the small and medium sized actors so they can protect each others, and organize a real non oligopolistic market, which allow fast innovations…


            If I understand well it is what LENR-Cities try to do.

            their idea how to fight against monopolies is such.
            typically in some market there is tendency to have actors who work vertically from monopoly of buyer to monopoly of seller (oligopsaume?)…
            their idea is to cut the business in two part, with trade in the middle instead of a big corp.

            then from that two side cut in the middle, you can create competitors, complementary innovators, on each side, which trade with the other side.
            then the big corp is transformed in a network of small actors, innovating all the time, and in fact much more globally resilient, if not antifragile, at the price of individual companies who appear and dies.

            moreover each small enterprise in the network have individually better survival facing the big corps. the game is fair when a network compete with a monolith.

          • AlainCo

            about 5 again, I could say that more than dumping in price and volume, the idea is to flood the big corps with innovation that they cannot follow.

            to flood with innovations, and dodge the elephant corps, you need to work in network of lean companies.

          • Rob Lewis

            I wouldn’t assume that Big Energy will jump on LENR and foster its adoption. Clayton Christensen’s landmark book “The Innovator’s Dilemma” is instructive: he points out the many reasons that it is very, very difficult for a big, successful company to embrace innovations that threaten to disrupt its core business.

            More likely, they will engage in “rent-seeking” behavior and attempt to discourage and delay the adoption of LENR.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            “More likely, they will engage in “rent-seeking” behavior and attempt to discourage and delay adoption”

            We have been in that phase of development for over a year.

          • LENR_Capitalist


            How about the following as a take on the impacted Players. It is just a first take and probably will evolve. I guest my question is: are there missed critical ways of segmenting the impacted players?

            Impacted Players
            1. Fossil Fuel Producing and Consuming
            a. Countries
            b. Governments
            c. Companies
            d. Citizens
            e. Educational Institutions
            f. NGO Research & Development Agencies

            Segmentation of Impacted Players
            1. Countries
            a. Percent of Total GDP associated with Fossil fuel
            i. Production
            ii. Consumption
            b. 1st, 2nd, and 3rd World (Developed, Developing, Undeveloped)
            i. Degree of cultural dependence upon access to Energy
            c. Degree of Free Market Capitalism
            d. Degree of Democracy
            e. Degree to which Terrorism is relevant (Generation vs. Target)
            f. Projected Impact of Climate Change
            g. Rule of Law, Degree of institutionalization/protection/respect for the
            i. IP Protection

            2. Companies/Institutions
            a. Supply Chain (Fossil Fuel vs. Alternative Energy Companies vs. Electric Utility)
            i. Producers
            ii. Transportation
            iii. Processors
            iv. Distributors
            v. End-Consumers
            1. Individuals
            2. Businesses
            3. Governmental Services, Institutions, Agencies
            4. Educational Institutions
            5. Public Services
            vi. Supply Chain Related
            1. Equipment Manufacturers
            2. Professional Services
            3. Maintenance and Operations Services
            4. Other Services (e.g. suppliers)
            5. Educational & Research Institutions

            3. Citizens
            a. Industry Affiliation
            b. Socio Economic Factors
            i. Income Level
            ii. Education
            iii. Political Party
            iv. Capitalists vs. Consumers (Have vs. Have Not)
            v. Environment: Pro vs. Indifferent

            4. Strategic Entities
            a. Complementary Groups
            i. Government-Industry Affiliated Groups
            ii. Education-Industry Affiliated Groups
            iii. NGO-Industry Affiliated Groups
            b. Political Action Committees

    • artefact


  • Thinks4Self

    I think before we start running through the streets screaming “The E-Cat is coming! The E-Cat is coming!” or something similar a truly independent confirmation needs to be available for the public to see. It could be a working commercial plant or a test by a notable lab with well known scientists.

  • daniel maris

    Has anyone heard more about that Finnish patent application? It was incredibly detailed wasn’t it? Will we see them perform some sort of demonstration?

    • dsm

      Interesting you should bring that up Daniel – an astute observation 🙂



      (point here is look at the posts refuting it and the credentials of its author 🙂 – none that I have found ! )

    • John Littlemist

      The patent application is a cookbook for cold fusion reactor. It has now been 2 months public, how long does it take to try to replicate the examples in it? How many replication attempts will there be and by whom? Will they be public?

  • hempenearth

    I don’t doubt LENR or LENR+ however I still have reasonable doubt about the ability of Rossi and DGT to commercialise their products. When Rossi’s partner is announced, I suspect there will be takeover bids (some hostile) for that company within days. Who knows whether Rossi’s partner can retain control? DGT’s business arrangements are more of a mystery but I doubt they could withstand efforts from hostile competitors. With a big oil hat on I’d be thinking once the leaders are taken out mopping up the remnants shouldn’t be too hard for a trillion dollar industry.

    • Roger Bird

      I have never really understood the phrase “hostile take over”. Please explain it to me. Is this going about to private investors and saying, “Hey, if you give me your vote or your proxy, I’ll let you sleep with my spouse.” Why can’t the current ownership or management do that? Are their spouses ugly or something? Please, explain.

      • hempenearth

        Hi Roger,
        My understanding of a hostile takeover for a public company is where shareholders are given differing advice from the management of the company being taken over to the advice of the company trying to get control – so there is an argument (or no agreement)between managers/boards on each team.
        A hostile takeover for a private company I believe is a lot more insideous and could in worst case scenarios involve illegal activities.

  • Anonymous Reader

    My opinion:

    The effect: proven scientifically, waiting for the science establishment to catch up with the published lab data.

    Economically Useful: Probably useful, but not proven publicly (yet). Problems with power and materials preparation. Still no consensus on the physics of the model, thus leaving the effect open to risks that are not fully modeled.

    Rossi and Defkalion: Both incomplete tests/demos with flaws. However, they have both made progress in the public demos and are going in the right direction.

    Bottom line: Reasonable doubt still exists but we are getting there.

    This is my opinion. Your mileage may vary.

    • Roger Bird

      “Still no consensus on the physics of the model, thus leaving the effect open to risks that are not fully modeled.” During the first test of a hydrogen bomb that had any chance of being deliverable by an airplane, “Castle Bravo”, it was supposed to do 5 million tons of TNT. It did 15 million tons of TNT, almost exactly 3 times as much. What went wrong? The lithium in the lithium deuteride was not supposed to do anything. But litherium 7, which had an extra neutron, once the reaction got started, flipped the extra neutron out like any other fast neutron and added to the snap and power of the reaction. This was actually a good thing; this was the end of the public’s romance with nuclear weapons since a lot of innocent people got harmed and a few got killed.

      Anyway, the point is that if we don’t really understand how the process works, even less than we understood thermonuclear weapons, then could not this lack of understanding leave us open to future safety problems?

  • Stephen Taylor

    I’m satisfied it’s for real at this point. Not sure there will be a specific champagne cork popping moment, but I choose now. Cheers!

    The eventual impact of all this is really hard to imagine. It will be fun to watch for a long time to come.

  • bean

    If there was any commercial threat, the oil companies would buy them out.

    • Roger Bird

      I don’t understand this. No one is forced to sell. If companies don’t want to get bought out, they should keep ownership to themselves.

      • GreenWin

        Roger, we cannot dismiss the sordid history of politics and corruption where anyone with a family or friends will make desperate choices to protect them. To think this has not been the case with alternative energy is naive.

      • Barry

        There was a family farm that got a huge offer from a pipeline company. They did not want to give up there beloved farm. Next step, the pipeline company said, “Okay, we will bring you to court.” The family could in no way keep up with the legal battle fees so they sold their family farm. True story.

  • roseland67

    Once again,
    I believe what MY senses tell me,
    what I can see, smell, taste, hear and feel.
    Lotsa good data out there, lots cool demo’s, lot of
    uber smart people saying a lot of positive things, but……

    I simply will not believe what I am told to believe.
    In Chicago, I wait, (but it could be real cool).

    • Barry

      I hope you believe in love roseland.

      • Barry

        (When I reread my comment, it could be mistaken as lewd.) I just mean love is beyond the senses.

        • Roger Bird

          I got it the first time through, but not initially. Initially it didn’t make any sense. Then it clicked. She should also believe in justice, consciousness, ideas, feelings, all kinds of wonderful but subjective things.

  • Anonymole

    Frank, baiting the crowd are we?

    You know this whole package is far from being put to bed. The sideshow twins are just getting ramped up. Their recent publicity stunts have shaken the investor rafters and I’m sure a few more will fall out and in. So we should be seeing more fanciful spectacles from them.

    At least the credibility of the ICCF scientific crowd has grown and appears to be building a fairly solid foundation from which to spread and grow. We should all be thankful for that. Yet the the credibility quotient of the commercial realm of LENR remains challenged. Without the public support of multiple first world corporations, which LENR in its full incarnation deserves, there will continue to be reasonable doubts.

    • dsm

      “have shaken the investor rafters” – Yes in your rather narrow view of things !

      Please have a go at answering the following set of questions “At what point should a company discovering ‘new energy’ demonstrate what they have discovered, and to who?, and why ?. and when ?”.

      Some considerations …

      Before they fully understand it ?
      Before they perhaps partially understand it ?
      – remember that it was only after steam energy was harnessed that the rules and laws of energy from steam were developed ! (read that again please)
      Before they have ip protection ?
      Before they have a commercial plans in place ?

      I eagerly await your thoughts on these points



      • Anonymole

        I believe the topic was “Reasonable doubts” no? And from your list and broad point of view it would appear that you also have reasonable doubts.

        • Understanding the science? Doubts, check.
        • IP protection? The patent trail for Cold Fusion/LENR is strange and murky. So, again, doubts there too, check.
        • Commercial plans? Yup, that was my point. Lots of doubt there. Without true multinational corporate muscle LENR will remain just another backwater oddity. Check.

        So, do reasonable doubts remain? Looks like you’ve picked some major ones.

  • dsm

    Came across this today – a very worthwhile read.,0,7448173.htmlstory?track=ed-pick

    Rosen recruited two other engineers, Thomas Hudspeth and Don Williams, and began designing the electronics and the propulsion and power system needed for a communications satellite. Not only was the task technically tough, but they also were fighting many of the nation’s top experts who did not believe their idea would work. Even their bosses — at a company founded by the eccentric billionaire Howard Hughes — were not sure their project was worth a modest investment.

    “I considered it me against the world,” Rosen said about the initial lack of government and industry support.


  • jpelsor

    Breakthrough anomalies in energy production have been announced in a number of fields including chemical photosynthesis, solid state energy production,cellulosic ethanol,fission, hydrogen electrolysis, solar concentration, coal gasification, plasma magnetics, not to mention LENR, etc.
    Each is potentially a society changing technology – IF – the economics work – and – the environmental consequences are at least not destructive.
    I checked in on ‘Cold Fusion Now’ periodically for years before Rossi, Focardi et al started to go public with announcements about upcoming demonstrations and commercialization of the E-cat and Defkalion’s embarrassing picture (no actual product) of their entry into the market while working on a startup company, simply trying make wood torrefaction economically viable.
    The dreamers who see LENR operated cars in 5 years as well as the pathoskeptics who refuse to believe there is anything there both miss the point.
    We all live in a world where technological progress occurs small fits and starts. Good, even great, ideas like past civilizations have no guarantee of eternal success. In all liklihood the earth’s human population, as it approaches 10 billion people will undergo yet another cycle of collapse and loss. I am confident that any number of people will deny that could ever happen either.
    LENR, as a nuclear process, is no more surprising than any number of physics discoveries that were inconceivable even 30 years ago, graphene nanotubes and superconductors come to mind right off. Our models merely need to catch up,
    By the same token, economic applications of superconductors are still relatively rare outside of the laboratory. Explosive progress with the reduction in cost and application of nanotubes in energy production are being made almost daily.
    If the open concept of the personal computer could be applied to LENR today, think of the progress that could be made in the next 40 years. Rossi, Defkalion, et all could still be enormously rich, just as Steve Jobs and Bill Gates are today with their different intellectual models.
    But, just like then(40 years ago), there needs to be a working model out there for people to work from. The time is over for the insane paranoia, these groups are experiencing; that somehow they won’t get rich if the technology is distributed.
    If LENR is real and economically viable, it is time for the marketplace to have its opportunity. If it isn’t, then it can be relegated to the bin of great ideas whose time isn’t yet here for one reason or another. The cat and mouse game will soon play out and the fervent wishes of the proselytes and pathoskeptics will mean little. But for goodness sake, it is past time for an economic working model to be demonstrated to establish a realistic baseline from which something real can actually happen or acknowledge the difficulties and move on.

    • Kim

      Here Here.


    • Roger Bird

      (1) I have been following alternative energy for about 40 freaking years, 16 years on the Internet. NO ONE ever said that a particular technology was going change society, before, NO ONE. I and hundreds of others are saying that LENR is going to change society. Some said that some new technology would help and oh I wish that we would all switch to it how wonderful things would be if we did.

      (2) Your first main point contradicts your second main point. If LENR is just like any other technological change, no big deal, then how come you want to toss the rule of law and the sanctity of private property and force Rossi and Defkalion to give up their secrets and do it your way.

      (3) If you think that we can have a glorious new humanity by starting out by beheading the nobility (the rule of law and the sanctity of private property), well, that didn’t work out too well before in so many revolutions. This revolution must be guided by spiritual values of non-coerciveness, honesty, consideration for others, etc. Otherwise we will end up with the same ol’ 5H1T that we started out with and nothing real will have changed, except that we will be warmer, but just as messed up as before.

    • daniel maris

      Well it is true that it took about 150 years to go from an automatic vehicle prototype (steam, Cugnot c. 1760) to workable models at reasonable cost.

      People were disappointed when nuclear fission energy turned out to be so expensive. Complexity equals cost. is the first rule of business. LENR is clearly not a simple technology.

      • Kim

        Its not rocket science either.


        • Omega Z

          We don’t know that Kim.

          NASA seems to think it is. 🙂

        • Barry

          Kim, Omega has to get some new jokes. That’s what he said last time I used the “rocket science” line.

    • George N

      Lenr has the opportunity to follow the pc economic path. Rossi is almost as outlandish as Steve Jobs!

      • GreenWin

        And Bill Gates. Remember, when Apple was on the ropes (trading at 13) Steve’s competitor and friend Bill, signed on to build Mac versions of Msoft apps. But Steve is the better showman, as is Ing Rossi.

    • dsm

      Well said and on target !.


  • Joe Shea

    There is just one rule for investigativereporting: Follow the money. The questions that might be asked are these:

    1. Why have no US-based military customers of thr E Cat come forward and acknowledged it?
    2. Does Roswsi own the US partner, and is his silence the product of his own instructions to himself?
    3. Why did Rossi forego the ICCF conference this year if he really belies his product can compete? Was it the number of scientists who might unmask some trickery?
    4. What was the train of events that led to Rossi’s arrest in Italy with his big waste-disposal project? I know he was exonerated, but did the product ever materialize?
    5. Where is the money coming from to support his Miami lifestyle and research?

    • Roger Bird

      “1. Why have no US-based military customers of the E-Cat come forward and acknowledged it?”

      You’re kidding, aren’t you? If the media discovered that the US military (tax-recipients) had paid money for a discredited technology, there would be he11 to pay.

      “2. Does Rossi own the US partner, and is his silence the product of his own instructions to himself?”

      I like it. Creative. LOL. I love this one. You could be speaking the truth on this one. And if so, Rossi is laughing really hard also.

      “3. Why did Rossi forgo the ICCF conference this year if he really believes his product can compete? Was it the number of scientists who might unmask some trickery?”

      Why should he go there? Like I said months ago and everyone jumped all over me, those who are accomplishing great things are too busy to go to conferences. In the case of Defkalion, they didn’t actually go to the ICCF-18; they just used ICCF-18 and us as advertising props. If I were Rossi and things are as he says that they are, I would not go to the ICCF-18 either. He has better things to do than blow 6 days with people who are still struggling with a few milliwatts of excess energy.

      5. Where is the money coming from to support his Miami lifestyle and research?

      I thought that he was Chief Scientist for some big company. And your use of the words “Miami lifestyle” is a LIE. You don’t know where he is living. You don’t know how many hours a week he is working. You don’t know what he is doing off hours. So, please do not subtly lie because I resent being lied to and manipulated.

      • Barry

        Roger, it’s hard to hear comments like, “He has better things to do than blow 6 days with people who are still struggling with a few milliwatts of excess energy.” Rossi has benefited greatly from the Cold Fusion collective. He said so himself. It doesn’t make sense for CF researchers to try to figure out the phenomenon with high amounts of excess energy. Mitchell Swartz told the MIT class, he has a pile of fried equipment outside Jet Energy. That’s with low energy. He said the expense is enormous. In the Defkalion demo, they wanted 12 hours just to drain the Hyperion of argon. On a small scale you can do perhaps ten times as many experiments. Their job is to make headway with R&D to see what makes CF tick not power a warehouse.

    • kwhilborn

      Andrea Rossi has always been very rich. He did not spend his time on a beach when he was worth 30 million dollars (USD).

      Andrea Rossi was in the Guinness Book of world records for being the fastest runner in the word for two years in a row for his class. He has perseverance.

      The chain of events leading to an arrest he was fully exonerated of, was trying to be in waste management in a country run by the mafia. Yes; even Italy has the mafia (who knew). Yes. The mafia like waste management (who knew). He even had competitors testifying on his behalf.

      The president of the United States handed him a VISA, but did he hide in America. No. He faced all accusers like a man and won.

      Andrea Rossi did not attend any ICCF conference. Why would he? It is his device that has sparked the acknowledgement and hastened research into the Nickel versions of LENR. He did public demonstrations years ago, and has since been eager only to manufacture, although he did allow verifications. 13 amendments to last verification and another one coming.

      US government has its own agenda. They have acknowledged LENR is real and have LENR patents. Zawodny at NASA and SPAWAR has another.

      Can LENR be used for evil. Will mass divergence from grid cause economic growth or collapse? Will Global warming improve due to less carbon emissions or worsen because of more heat generated? The governments must be careful.

      Economies are at stake.

      There is plenty of legitimate papers supporting the Andrea Rossi version of LENR. Is this coincidence that he caused the LENR rush if he has nothing. His product has developed as expected, i.e. 18 hours was his longest demo in 2011 because of stability yet the confirmation ecats ran for 3 days and required manual shut off.

      Your side sounds like you spent 10 minutes reading a Steven Krivit article without looking at what is real or common sense.

  • Joe Shea

    There is just one rule for investigativereporting: Follow the money. The questions that might be asked are these:

    1. Why have no US-based military customers of the E Cat come forward and acknowledged it? Why have no FOIA efforts uncovered it?
    2. Does Rossi own the US partner, and is his silence the product of his own instructions to himself?
    3. Why did Rossi forego the ICCF conference this year if he really believes his product can compete? Was it the number of scientists who might unmask some trickery?
    4. What was the train of events that led to Rossi’s arrest in Italy with his big waste-disposal project? I know he was exonerated, but did the product ever materialize?
    5. Where is the money coming from to support his Miami lifestyle and research?

    • jjaroslav

      If Rossi is moving toward market then this site and our collective feelings are irrelevant. He has to totally focus on building a single reliable unit that has been thoroughly vetted, will be fully controllable with all the risk management issues totally settled.
      If it finally happens it then needs to be a full launch with no bugs and no way the ‘detractors’ will be able to find any fault and discount the machine; and the entire technology…..
      noting that any delay means $billions of revenue for ‘detractor’ interests….and many more years of ‘corrective’ development and fighting negative press for LENR.
      Let’s hope he is working diligently and not going to conferences…and building a heater to go in Blair House…

    • hempenearth

      So, we conclude that you are not an investigative reporter Joe.

    • Hampus

      1. Because the military doesn’t have to inform the public what its doing.
      2.maybe maybe not.
      3. The reason he gave us was “I don’t have time for anymore public tests or demos, this is the time for work not talking”.
      4. Rossi was working on making garbage to oil. He almost succeeded but then the government refused to sell him anymore garbage, because they sold it to the mafia instead. Without anymore garbage coming in and his license to deal with the garbage removed his company funds dried up. With no money left they could not take care of the waste they already had. After some trials he was found not guilty.
      5. Rossi then moved to USA where the government is not owned by the mafia. He started a new company wich made bio diesel generators and the business went well. He later sold that company to be able to work with LENR+.

    • Karl

      It is often a good idea to follow the money but on the contrary to what you imply, it works the other way around. For example it is normal for established business to prevent competition from new products or discoveries that can hurt established business.

      In the example of CF/LENR this new discoveries may effect so many most to the good of course including a large part of the industry. A child can thus see that it will hurt many very strong and influential established economic interest that control oil, gas and nuclear interest.

      So called green energy from sun and wind are more or less accepted I imagine much because it is no real threat to these business.

      Thus, instead you should follow the money on those who have an interest to put a lid on CF/LENR or any real low cost energy solution by silence media, the science community and normal block patent processes to prevent inventors to fund new discoveries.

  • Sandy

    My doubts about the reality of LENR evaporated a few months ago when the engineers at NASA started talking about single-stage-to-orbit spacecraft powered by LENR. Those guys are not going to make such statements unless they are absolutely sure LENR is real.

    Now we can look forward to the construction of a lunar base, including there the most powerful telescope ever built. The wonders of the universe will be revealed in stunning detail. Our worldviews will change accordingly.

  • Redford

    I do think it needs more yet. Ecat front needs at least a publication of 3rd party report and another replication to be 99% sure. Defk needs 2 published replication as well. Also all of this will only proovezthe potential but not that a viable product is actually there.

    Right now I am 75% positive on Rossi has it, 45 on Defkalion (didn’t forgot all the past crap) and 30% confident than a product will be there ans sold to many customers in the next 2 years. And that’s already a very enthusiastic take when yoj consider the implications 🙂

  • Craig Houghton

    I have spoken to many people about the ecat, explained what it does, about the cost of running the unit and about the clean energy it produces. The response from these poeple is indifference. They seem not to care or dismiss it thinking that it is some sought of hoax. Untill the mainstream media start to talk about the ecat ordinary folk are not interested. The word needs to be got out and I urge everyone with an interest to speak up everywhere they can, Facebook, twitter, at work, to friends and so on, just keep talking bout it.

    • Isac

      Lets say I dont have any friends on google, facebook or twitter, how can I still reach out to other people?

      Easy! I use the Hashtag —–> #

    • fortyniner

      I’m not sure that is the solution. Without the simple proof of a cold fusion reactor in open operation, talking about the possibilities will just sound like delusion to the majority of people. They are too conditioned to accept anything that is beyond their reality bubbles and will actively (sometimes aggressively) reject any information that does not conform to their limited world views.

      Just like chemtrails, UFOs and ‘shadow governments’ it doesn’t matter how real a thing actually is, when hard proof requires some knowledge and possibly additional research to understand, and the truth is continually subjected to dissemination of deliberate disinformation and other attacks.

      With the exception of passing links relating to tests and demos of working CF prototypes to those who are equipped to understand the information, it is probably better to keep quiet for now. Trying to convince people on the basis of what we have now is not only futile, but will simply increase the number of sheeple who ‘know’ that such a thing is impossible, and is the territory of tinfoil-hat-wearing loons. Not only that, but such people are extremely unlikely to play any constructive part in cold fusion development, and so attempting to inform them is simply a waste of time and effort.

    • Stephen

      No I think talking won’t help much, even if maybe it is not useless… what is really needed are HARD FACTS. Provided the strong discredit around the subject in the past decades, they should also be bullet-proof facts. Bullet-proof beyond what normally reasonable…

      Either many very reproducible experiments that break through the skepticism in the communiy… or a product on sale.

    • Omega Z

      Craig Houghton

      @ you & those who replied.

      Put a Fusion device on the 6 o’clock news & guess what?

      The Indifference for the most part will continue to prevail.
      Sad, but True. This is the World of today.

      Their main response will be OK, So when will my utilities become cheaper. Ho Hum- ZZZzzzz.

  • Omega Z

    E-cat selfpowering???

    Marco Serra July 27th, 2013 at 4:11 AM

    Dear Ing. Rossi.
    in the last 2 years to immagine a future applications list was my favorite hobby. ECat announcement gave me the optimism I’ve never got in this era of global warming.

    I think there can be 2 possible lists of future long term applications: one that takes in accounnt an ECat that need electricity to produce heat and one other for an ECat that self-produce the electricity it need and possibly a bit more. No need to say that the second list would be much much more interesting.

    Which list do you think it’s better for us to compile ?

    Best Regards Marco
    Andrea Rossi July 27th, 2013 at 7:14 AM

    Marco Serra:
    Warm Regards, A.R.

  • artefact

    ICCF-18 Post Thoughts: Long Hours, High Spirits, and The Young Guns.

    • Barry

      Interesting summary. It’s inspiring to hear about the “Young Guns.” At MIT, Peter Hagelstein seems quite discouraged by the lack of young people taking an interest. It’s good to see him taking photos with young enthusiastic people. For his sake I wish he would transfer to the U of Missouri where he would be appreciated and his funding wouldn’t get taken away like it did at MIT. It’s good to see him get acknowledged for all he has done.

      The renewed interest by the young is a good sign.

      • GreenWin

        “It would not matter to me if a thousand other investigations were to subsequently perform experiments that see excess heat. These results may all be correct, but it would be an insult to these investigators to connect them with Pons and Fleischmann.” MIT Prof. Ron Ballinger 1991

        Barry, U Mizzou is protected from the tentacles of MIT only due to Sydney Kimmel’s private money. The orthodoxy might try to pressure Kimmel to stop funding, but he is independently wealthy and that makes a great difference.

        I lobby for MIT to admit its past transgressions and fund its own LENR research lab. They have plenty of talent being layed off their hotfuse program. With Ballinger and Parker gone, MIT has a chance to save face and play a productive role in the discovery and distribution of the New Fire.

        • Barry

          Sign me up GreenWin.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    Sound familiar?

    There is a lot of politics around the China Broad Group factory mass produced skyscraper. If Broad Group succeeds with the successful construction of an over 200 story skyscraper at about 30% lower cost than other competitors in China, then Broad Group will have a lot of momentum towards their goal of gaining over 30% of the world commercial building market. This would mean getting over 50% of the China commercial building market. This is why the attacks on the China Broad Group skyscraper have been so intense and why there are powerful opponents trying to delay the project with regulatory approval barriers.

  • Stephen

    For me this all started with the eCat… funny story, I quickly got convinced it was probably a scam, say, 90%. The guys from Sweden were making the thing a bit more plausible but the shady past of AR plus his very weird behavior plus the bad reputation of cold fusion were the killers to me. To be quite honest, I still wonder whether AR somehow aims at discrediting himself or he is just like that…

    Then, trying to look through the mist, I have searched for further info about LENR and I quickly convinced myselft that numbers did not add up: why some people at NASA is doing very similar things? what about this 60min by CBS? why are these other people so strongly critical? Here I reached stage 2: I got convinced that LENR should be studied and I was kind of disappointed about the mindset in mainstream science… I thought “this behavior is just as unscientific and irrational as the one of blind believers”. At present I would rate as 100% worth investigating LENR, with a 99% confidence there is some real science in it.

    About LENR+… I think we go deeper into the speculation. I recently started to run out of rational answers to the question “why not?”. This is a fashinating story, at present it is unbelievable to me that LENR+ is real… AND it is unbelievable as well that it is completely fake. I still have a hard time in believing AR claims are genuine or partly genuine, mostly because of his strange promotion style and shady track record… but then what about Defkalion? why NASA, Piantelli, etc seem positive on similar systems? Everybody gone crazy and delusional? How big can a hoax become, how many people can it involve before it explodes? So let’s say I don’t buy LENR+ yet and that I am not sure in which unbelievable world we are living, exactly. The only thing I am sure of is that it is unbelievable 🙂

    Finally, I am just a bit scared that if these reactors are a scam they will risk killing research on LENR. It seems to me that things have taken a quite radical path. Also all this cannot last much longer now that there are strong claims of controllable and basically market-ready reactors… or all this will be discredited.

    • AB

      Good to see some honest skepticism. I think most of us here started out with varying degree of doubts, but eventually realized that LENR is almost certainly real despite popular opinion saying otherwise. The case for LENR+ isn’t as strong but there are many reasons to be optimistic about it.

    • Omega Z


      I find it hard to believe that NASA would begin a development project with Boeing based on a flask that produces small quantities of excess heat.

      This is not a sound bases for such a project. I can only assume they have much more knowledge then “WE” have privy to.

      Possibly, they have access to Rossi’s 1Mw plant sold to a secret military customer. Or possibly a project by someone we are totally unaware of.

      Regardless, it would have to be very advanced to the point that they can make solid speculations of, Size, Output, Energy Density, Etc..
      Otherwise, One would have no Idea how to design such a project at all. In a Time of Tight Budgets with cuts taking place, it would make no sense.

  • enduser

    I trawled around the net last night and found positive (or agnostic to positive) text about LENR in all sorts of places including NASA, Univ.of Illinois, MIT, Huffington Post, Wired UK, Forbes,Univ.of NSW, etc.

    Think about hoaxes – nothing as big as LENR is today, has turned into a hoax before, that I can think of.

    Putting these things together logically suggests that something is going on. Why are semi government Swedish organisations so interested? Again, it seems something is going on.

    My view – something is going on.

    • Fibber McGourlick

      That was apparent in 1989, but big science ignored it. And so did almost everone else. It’s still happening with big science and yet it’s become obvious to anyone who might care to look around that a major phenomena has been uncovered and is–purportedly–being developed into a transformational device that will solve some of mankind’s major problems if successful.

      • Roger Bird

        “That was apparent in 1989”. It was apparent to you, Fibber. Obviously it wasn’t apparent to everyone.

  • Shane D.
    • Jim


      Thanks for the post. Great story.

      Phoenix rising from the ashes!

  • Fibb

    Marco DL wrote:
    Hi Mats,
    Are you following 22passi?
    Try to call Melis, should be valuable
    Seems that DGT & friends are in very big troubles.


  • Stephen Goodfellow

    I was one of those individuals sitting on the fence (still am) who watched Defkalion’s streaming video. I must admit, my skepticism dropped by several magnitudes.

  • georgehants

    Science 2
    Solar Hydrogen Energy, Artificial Photosynthesis, Production Breakthrough.

  • clovis

    Hi, y’all
    I believe 100% in e-cat, and lenr, but if you have read any of my post,
    over the years you would have already,known this.-lol- big time believer.
    in my opinion the e-cat is coming into fruition, very fast, like no other similar product, I know about, all at the direction of one Andrea Rossi.
    this guy is one of the most remarkable men I have ever read or heard about.
    This great discovery, was uncovered by AR, and brought along this far and fast,is historic, it is my belief, that nothing can stand against this discovery, no power on earth, because I believe that a greater power is in control. just saying.

  • Stephen

    I think an interesting question is what happens to mainstream science if LENR+ turns out to be real and a reactor hits the market. That would be kind of fun…

    I think skepticism is fine in general: I believe it is very important to be skeptical and put our own and others’ claims at test… but in the past decades we have seen from some people a kind of skepticism which seems really too strong to me, at times an even UNscientific one… “too strong” in particular if in the end it turns out they were wrong!

    Recovering from an error and step by step re-admint LERN within legitimate science is one thing and it is probably doable… but having LERN+ going mainstream in the form of a product you can buy on the market… well, that’s another thing. I think that would be quite hard to explain.

    • Allan Shura

      There is a lot we still do not understand or have not proven about
      the phenomenon of electricity but that is not a reason for not using it’s practical applications.

    • dsm


      We need have no illusions about how long it will take for any of this to ‘hit the market’ it just won’t happen as quickly as we may hope.

      Wankel rotary engines are generally superior in performance, moving parts etc: to conventional piston engines – they took decades to end up in the Mazda but even now are still niche. Paul Moller has been using the rotary design as superior types of engines, to try to get his Moller Sky Car in the air. Conventional piston engines were never in consideration.

      Point here is that LENR/LENR+ is new energy and anyone seriously going to market has to do a lot of repeat ‘test-disassemble-analyze-test’ work of the finished devices in order to avoid potential mass litigation should they make one silly slip up in the design allowing that these have never been designed into appliance nor sold before.

      It was always grossly optimistic of Andrea to imagine he could have home eCats on the market by end 2013. For legal protection alone it won’t happen. There have to be extended pilot tests of the devices. Regulatory bodies have to know if they require special expertise to install & manage & if so that training and regulation has to be in place. Bureaucracy is often ugly and restrictive but is also needed.

      Industrial experiments with large partners makes infinitely better sense as they are less constrained by such measures and in effect accelerate the acceptance and handling of such new technology.

      I would be amazed to see a home eCat on the market inside 5 years once scientific validation is fully accepted (I have 2 on order – close to the top of the queue).


      • Stephen

        Makes sense.

        I wonder if these people (in particular AR!) are aware of the fact that any discrepancy between what they say and what later happens has a very strong impact on the evolution of general opinion on their supposed products. AR has already accumulated a substantial amount of significant ones.

        I think they should be very careful and make sure what they say finds a clear match in the real world… this is a matter of being professional and reliable: if you are not like that, sooner or later you pay it… it’s normal.

  • AB

    For those wondering about the “trouble Defkalion is in” according to some rumors.

    @ ALL
    I apologize to the readers of the blog (at least those true and authentic, not with those who come here to check and create flames) for the incomprehensibility of a small number of comments rimpallati in the last days of VoA (Voice of America) Go Katto, Nobody, MYSTERY and myself.
    I will try to explain in short what I’ve rebuilt.
    Two days ago (Saturday night) I came to know that rumor that a group of unidentified Italian researchers do not know when (presumably before the recent stream of 22 and 23 July) and do not know where, had the opportunity to to test the reactor Defkalyon Hyperion 5: the result would have been merciless in the sense that the reactor greek not only would not work at all, but it would have been exposed a real trick endeavored to believe that the reactor functions. In other words, the unidentified group have discovered a scam.
    I finally understood what the hell they were referring to a series of cryptic comments appeared on the blog in recent days. I fact that this (drab) story has landed on 22 steps through the comments of VoA, appeared for the first time on 25 July (note well, that person in a way that is VoA access the blog with two different Google Account) as you can see on Search over 22 to access all his comments.
    Reasoning. If someone really was aware of details of a scam should immediately rush to the judiciary and to tell everything he knows, having had the opportunity to see with their own eyes and measure with their own tools. And of course showing evidence of everything. Already the evidence. Why the VOICE also says that the unidentified group because ironclad NDA, did not take with him to produce any evidence to the judiciary, made somewhat surreal!
    For my part, beyond these rumors, I do not know anything else.
    And suspecting that this is a great hoax, a gypsy summer, a trappolone organized by some person of much wit and very little soul, who loves to play with his neighbor more than help, I will not in any way be USED, I and this blog, to perpetuate the flame. Therefore this time every comment that goes behind the flame (lit from VoA) will be deleted.
    And for 24 hours I close the comments to the blog, so that everyone can reflect on how far in the future this blog defend against manipulation attempts so manigolde (not to mention awkward).
    Thanks for your attention

    P.S. Obviously it is not true that “someone is working to add 22 Search a fantastic feature that allows … to find out if they wrote / write on this blog google people with different accounts but identical IP will see some good :)”
    I said it yesterday just to try to scare those who had a little ‘guilty conscience … unnecessarily … because people who write in here with a guilty conscience proves to have excellent knowledge and computer tools.

    In other words, someone started the rumor of Defkalion cheating during a test, however Passerini believes it to be a false rumor.

    • daniel maris

      Maybe it was a supersceptic determined to find something wrong?

      • AB

        I find it difficult to believe that a group of scientists would find evidence of fraud and then accept to remain silent due to a NDA. Mainly because of the legal implications: I believe that they would seriously run the risk of becoming accomplices in the fraud.

    • GreenWin

      “Most Americans have never heard VOA, as the law prohibits it from broadcasting to domestic audiences. As a news organization, it strives to maintain journalistic integrity against the perception that it is a “propaganda” arm of the US government. VOA’s legislative charter requires it to “present the policies of the United States clearly and effectively.” CS Monitor

      • AB

        The VoA in the post refers to a user.

      • Omega Z


        A recent development.
        VOA will very soon be broadcast in the U.S.A.

        AB response was VOA in his post is a user name

        • GreenWin

          Thanks for clarifying that guys.

    • Kim

      Could somebody condense AB above message
      into 5 short lines, I can’t understand it.


      • Barry

        AB is quoting Daniele Passerini from his website through Google translate, making the message even more cryptic.

        • daniel maris

          I always get the impression that Passerini’s prose is already very allusive and eliptical. Adding Google Translate to teh mix makes it really off-planet-speak.

      • Preston

        There is a rumor that a group of unidentified Italian researchers who were testing the Defkalion reactor found evidence of fraud.

    • Fibb

      FUD campaigns will certainly ramp up as the lenr+ commercialers continue to lift their skirts.

      • Gerrit

        First they ignore you,
        then they laugh at you,
        then they fight you, <—– we are here
        then you win.

        • fortyniner

          Concur – classic sequence is in process.

    • Hal

      Would that be Gary Wright?, after his extortion attempt on Bob Rohhner I wouldn’t put anything beyond him,

      • Omega Z


        You may have a point. Fits his M.O. Legalese is what he used to try to blackmail Rohhner. He fakes legal ability, but has none.

        NDA is to protect Intellectual property. If one knows of fraud,, NDA is non binding. In fact they could be held as an accomplice after the fact if they knowingly withheld this knowledge.

    • Stephen

      Seems somebody bluffing he has some insider info, just to check out the reaction of the others in the blog. Interesting idea. And a bit psychotic too.

  • Jim

    A larger part of the problem of wider interest is that there are still significant questions on:

    A) How much work is left to produce commercially impactful power (i.e.
    high COP, controllable, mass production)
    > Person on the street wants to know “when will my energy bill go down?”; “when can I buy one?” The answers are probably “not real soon”, at which point people turn back to the latest celebrity news.

    B) How much difference cheap energy could really make to the world (which I believe most people don’t understand)

    I think there’s some leverage in question B), though when I try to work it in my head, it just keeps coming up with body counts:

    > Cheap energy could prevent
    >> X hundred thousand deaths per year from malnutrition due to crop failure due to lack of irrigation water
    >> X hundred thousand deaths per year from water born disease due to lack of energy to boil water
    >>> X million children losing education per year because of no night lighting in the home
    >> X hundred thousand impacts due to military budgets focused on defending oil states
    etc etc etc

    It would be good to see a blog devoted to these statistics alone.

    • Mason


      I agree.

      It is important to define the benefits of the excess cash becoming available in the family budget when the cost of heat & electricity drops by 50-75%. What are the benefits to health or the environment when dung or scarce wood is no longer used. What is the next incremental item ‘purchased’ when time used to scrounge or cash becomes available and the cost of energy becomes negligible?

      Also, it is hard to imagine the full scope of impact on geopolitics when access to fossil fuels doesn’t drive military budgets, military action, terrorism, etc. The number of lives saved is real.

      And, on the other side of the coin, it is also important to recognize the dislocation on the 100’s of millions of people dependent upon or invested in the fossil fuel industry as industry shifts from ‘old’ to ‘new’.

  • GreenWin

    A bit OT but reasonable speculation: It is now certain that Doosan Heavy the Korean industrial giant, is buying Ansaldo Energia (Siemens dropped out recently.) Ansaldo is the Italian energy division of Finmeccanica SpA, Italy’s defense industry leader. Ansaldo has been a supporter of Andrea Rossi’s E-Cat and LENR in general. They sent an executive to speak on the LENR Panel at NI Week last year.

    The fun begins at Doosan’s Heavy Industries and Construction division. They are big on alternative, green, clean, etc. energy. They build windmills and fuel cells. They also have developed an interesting new technology called a “Superconducting Generator/Motor.” It is a generator that uses superconductor coils instead of copper. This suggests the potential for high system efficiency 50-60% LENR power plants – provided combined cycle or better steam turbines are used.

    Further speculation would be to combine this technology with the magnetic anomaly described by DGT in its Hyperion. If the Hyperion’s mag field can be phase pulsed, SC coils in near field can convert that energy directly to electricity. Solid state fusion energy. Nice.

    • Thinks4Self

      Nice thought but super conductors and LENR reactors are on opposite ends of the temperature scale in regards to operating temperatures. It would be like storing your ice cubes on top of your operating pottery kiln.

      • GreenWin

        Good point T4S. This is what smart engineering is all about. The hotfusion boys have the same problem on a massive scale. They use huge superconductors in a device (ITER) designed to sustain the heat of the Sun. Interesting part of SC is increasing ability to operate at near-room temp.

        • Thinks4Self

          Need some real good material engineering and for sure, if you are going to get a superconductor close enough to the to the reactor core to use the described magnetic field, keep it insulated from the heat and and not dampen the field.

          • AlainCo

            It seems it is desperate. the neutrons in normal mode would destroy the superconductors, who are complex material. It create transmutation and allocations which are evil for superconduction.

            for structure it is a big problem, more or less addresses by the people who worked for superphenix, but a nuclear reactor is a big boiler, not a subtle macroscopic quantum machinery designed to transport electrons without resistance.

    • daniel maris

      I think you’ve done this speculation before Greenwin – what’s the point?

      • bachcole

        Seems like some people are more cavalier about connecting dots than the average person, and some people are more conservative about connecting dots than the average person.

      • GreenWin

        Daniel, Ansaldo Energia is the only big energy company openly supporting LENR. While there may be others conducting research, Ansaldo is a leader. So, now that Ansaldo is going to Doosan, we may see industrial-level LENR prototypes emerging.

        Considering these pages are filled with speculation on all things Rossi, tracking established business interests in LENR is a reasonable contribution.

  • Eric

    Comment section:
    John Hadjichristos, CTO of Defkalion just invited Mary Yugo to perform a test in one of Defkalions labs.

    She immediately tries to weasel herself out of it, big surprise! I urge all of you to remind MY of this invitation everywhere she post her “expert” comments in the future.

    • Timycelyn

      I guess George Hody didn’t fancy the pretty irreversible operation he would need to turn up in his ‘Mary Yugo’ persona.

      Not that there wouldn’t have been a substantial queue of people ready and willing to assist him in any small alterations he needed making to his anatomy…… 😉

      • Thinks4Self

        No, I think it is more likely MY knows that their position is wrong and once it is proven without a doubt that LENR+ is real they want to be able to slink off into the ether from which they came anonymously.

    • daniel maris

      Marvellous! I am sure we will all remind her/him…and I will off shortly to Independent E Cat News to see what the sceptical constituency have to say on the matter. 🙂

    • dsm

      “Not tonight please Yannis, I have just contracted a very nasty headache”
      Poor Mary, at last done-in, either way you look at it.

    • GreenWin

      This is THE weasel of the decade! Given opportunity to personally, hands-on test the Hyperion with her own instruments – she weasels. Mary/Hody/Potenza has now disgraced even the last of the skep topathz.

      • Barry

        You got to give it to John Hadjichristos for putting MY in her place. Karma was bound to catch up with her.
        I can understand her dilemma though, with all her aliases, she would need 10 plane tickets.

    • bachcole

      I would guess that maryyugo would need airfare in order to do that. I personally couldn’t do it without a round trip ticket, as much as I would like to.

      maryyugo has become legendary in her/his own time. Too bad he/she did not follow through. If he/she had, she could have been the hero of the century. If the Defkalion was real, he/she could switch parties and been a huge hero. If it wasn’t, then still she/he would have been the darling of that most gracious and charming of groups the skeptopaths.

    • Gerrit

      Bravely bold Mary Yugo rode forth from Camelot.
      She was not afraid to die, brave Mary Yugo !
      She was not at all afraid to be killed in nasty ways,
      Brave, brave, brave, Mary Yugo !

      She was not in the least bit scared to be mashed into a pulp,
      Or to have her eyes gouged out, and her elbows broken;
      To have her kneecaps split, and her body burned away;
      And her limbs all hacked and mangled, brave Mary Yugo!

      Her head smashed in and her heart cut out
      And her liver removed and her bowels unplugged
      And her nostrils raped and her bottom burned off

      When danger reared its ugly head,
      She bravely turned her tail and fled.
      Yes, brave Mary Yugo turned about
      And gallantly she chickened out.
      Bravely taking to her feet
      She beat a very brave retreat,
      Bravest of the brave, Mary Yugo!

    • Gerrit

      When danger reared its ugly head,
      She bravely turned her tail and fled.
      Yes, brave Mary Yugo turned about
      And gallantly she chickened out.
      Bravely taking to her feet
      She beat a very brave retreat,
      Bravest of the brave, Mary Yugo!

      • timycelyn

        Truly, we are getting nearer and nearer the Holy Grail…. 😉

    • Stephen

      Actually the story continued, with CuriousChris giving a counter proposal for a test. However Hadjichristos has not replied anymore. Boring. So much talking and talking in this cold fusion story: AR is a king of story telling but he has plenty of disciples, even in the skeptics field…

      • Stephen

        However is it really so complicate?!? This is a machine that sucks some electricity and heats up some water. I don’t want to say it is trivial, but we are not talking about rocket science either…

        Pack this thing in a configuration which can be easily moved (say a small and very basic trailer with no hidden comparts, with a nice plug and water inlet/outlet) bring to the garage of a bl..dy authoritative authority willing to test it. DGT runs the reactor on the tester electricity and water. Let both the tester and DGT measure water temperatures/flows and power consumptions in the way they want… so that nobody is scared to be cheated. Forget about disclosing all the other data of the reactor: inner temperatures, radiation, we don’t care… this is only confusing things. Disclose the data and let anybody analize it as they like and rise, if they can, rationally and quantitatively motivated criticism.

        I don’t understand neither MY+CC discussing about how impossibly complicate it is do that, nor Defkalion staff not doing this TODAY instead of wasting time challenging MY on a blog.

  • MStone

    I am still on the fence optimistically.

    Not because of a lack of positive evidence; but, because the implications of this invention are so staggering,so world changing, that I have to see it working in a true commercial application before I come down off of the fence. The e-cat needs a “bloom energy moment”. Convince Google to install it at one of its server farms…then talk to me.

  • Roger Bird

    So, maryyugo got an invite and passed on it. Does that mean that he/she does not even believe his/her own words. How then are we expected to give a hoot what he/she says?

    • dsm

      This is quite something !.

      Mary is in the act of digging her own grave with her tongue. Lets not slow her down.


      • Roger Bird

        When even the hardcore skeptopaths believe in LENR+, that is like meta-scientific proof.

      • Allan Shura

        May be Dick Smith will offer again and accept a million dollar challenge like with the e-cat. A technical writer in Australia claimed (after Rossi turned the offer down) to know the why how of the e-cat being a fake. Yet we haven’t heard from them since.

        • dsm

          Dick Smith’s 1m bet expired end feb 2013.

          Sadly to me, in a conversation this week Dick remains convinced that both DGT and Andrea Rossi are scammers. I have a great deal of respect for Dick but said to him I disagree about it being a scam.

          I offered to explain why I no longer see evidence of a scam (mis-statements a-plenty yes) but this offer has not been followed up on by Dick as yet. But, I have subsequently concluded it is not worth me trying to explain (the science baffles most people) and so I won’t.

          It is just so hard enough for anyone of any intellect to work out the complexities of what is happening and to work out the value of opinions being made by some very smart but contradictory people.

          I am satisfied I am seeing blog attack posters who work in the hot fusion industry who won’t let honesty get in the way of tearing LENR+/HENI down – some IMHO have become rabid and I trust that most intelligent readers can see this behaviour and know it for what it is (i.e. attack a demo (stated to be just that) as if it were a failed scientific validation exercise – what is called a ‘strawman’ argument).

          I won’t name names as each of us has to figure things like that out for ourselves.


    • AB

      His “skepticism” is merely an excuse to attack, belittle and besmirch.

      • Roger Bird

        I think that this is the case most of the time with these skeptopaths. That works pretty good in health studies because proof is difficult to come by. But in this case with LENR, I think that they have gotten themselves into a most difficult position because proof is on it’s way, and I think that they know it.

      • Thinks4Self

        Some people just like to argue. The internet is a candy store for these people. MY is obviously one of those persons and you would probably deem s/he an asset if MY was on your side in a debate. I hold no grudge and can’t wait to see MY’s reaction to a story on a major news station about a running E-Cat plant or a Defkalion third party test done at MIT or something. I think that it won’t be along wait. But then again I’ve been watching since Rossi’s little pipe bomb reactor demo and s/he was going for broke even then.

  • Arthur B

    When will Rossi’s partner make himself known?

    To answer that question we have to put ourselves in their (Rossi & C0) shoes.

    Over the last 12 months Rossi has mentioned on a number of occasions that his top priority is the produce electrical power on a commercial scale. I believe he has already done that and is now busy commissioning the first plant to supply full electrical power to his E-Cat factory. If it is done right there should always be an excess of electrical power, which is fed back to the local utility company. The E-Cat driven electrical power plant can then run 24/7 at maximum efficiency.

    So now we have a factory producing E-Cat that is 100%+ powered by E-Cats. It would be the worlds first truly 100% green factory and a blue print for all future factories. This would be the ideal time to open up to the world.

    It is a win, win, win situation. For Rossi, his partner & the utility company.

    Arthur B

  • Enduser

    A bit of gentle skepticism. The oft judge of success in LENR is to see if more energy comes out than goes in. This happens all the time, for example, light a match and set a newspaper alight. The paper creates more heat than the match does.

    We all know that this is balanced by the energy in creating the newspaper which would have been more than that used by making a match.

    Looking just at Rossi’s apparatus, what if the energy used to create his “charge” is greater that the energy inputs of his system? Not a realistic example, but if his charge contains a few grams of moon dust, say, then there’s no cheap heat.

    Have all the energy inputs been accounted for?

  • Ivy Matt

    “…let’s move on to the next stage which I believe is sharing the news with the 99.99 per cent of people who haven’t heard about this story…”

    That’s the next stage? Some people have been doing exactly that for the last 2.5 years.

  • Thinks4Self

    After pondering the evidence I would have to say the only reasonable doubt left is:

    How long can a reactor run on a single load of fuel?

    LENR has plenty of documented replications more than ball lightning. With all of Rossi’s demos, his third party report and Defkalion’s demos it is reasonable to conclude LENR+ is possible to acheive. The runs on the third party report show it can be done for a few days. Once longer runs can be shown somebody on a major news outlet will run a story on it and it will be a new day.