Rossi: Can't Find Stirling Engine Fit for Purpose

If you remember, a few weeks ago Andrea Rossi put out a request on the Journal of Nuclear Physics, asking if anyone had a Stirling Engine that might be suitable to work with an E-Cat. He said, “Please send your proposals for Sterling Engines to be coupled with the E-Cats (power 5 kW and 10 kW). The best offers will be bought for testing.”

When a reader asked Rossi today if there had been any suitable proposals made, he replied:

I arrived to the conclusion that does not exist any Sterling Engine mature for an application to the E-Cat. We received many proposals regarding concepts, prototypes to be developed: we need a product off the shelf.

I suppose it’s not terribly hard to understand why this might be the case — Stirling engines are not the kind of thing one finds in an industrial or domestic setting these days. I can’t think when I have seen one in operation outside a demonstration model, so commercial units are probably quite unusual, and Rossi doesn’t want to have to deal with underdeveloped Sterling engines.

For those unfamiliar with Stirling engines, they are relatively simple machines which run on a principle of air expansion and compression caused by the difference in temperature between hot and cold cylinders. The constant heat of an E-Cat makes a Stirling engine an attractive option, but apparently Rossi has yet to come across one that suitable yet. I’m sure he’s open to future offers, however.

Below is a short video demonstrating a small Stirling engine at work.

  • Leo Kaas

    Cyclone Power Technologies just completed a manufacturing agreement with Precision CNC. They are also working with Ohio State University’s Center for Automotive Research. Cyclone has been developing several engines that could work with LENR. Once Defkalion or Rossi take off, companies like Cyclone Power will fine tune their product line to work with this new technology. I hope Cyclone has submitted a proposal to Rossi. Cyclone’s Engines seem to be a perfect fit for the Excess Heat of LENR.

  • Psyphi

    Stirling Biopower
    Cool Energy
    Both could be used with the E-Cat.

  • Magnus
  • LENR4you

    As a prototype or first experiment, a combination of LENR reactor and Stirling engine by simply flange connection certainly makes sense.
    But in the long term, and especially in view of the weight / power ratio for mobile use, it is necessary to merge these two techniques!
    Look at “The embedded LENR NiH Stirling Engine”
    This patent was filed in Germany and is still not been granted.

  • John P

    Perhaps Mr. Rossi should ditch the hot air engine for a hot water one. A properly designed Nitinol motor could be a perfect match for the E-cats water heating ability. These are not just curious toys just ask the USN they have had them for years. I understand that this does not help the cause for the short term but it could be a long term solution.

    • Roger Bird

      What about the supercritical CO2 engines? Much more compact and much more efficient. Although I know nothing about their current status; they may still be only in development.

  • C.K.
  • Thinks4Self

    Fortyniner put this link up in another thread:

    There might be a modern equivalent. If nothing else the patents should be on file as a starting point.

  • dsm

    I have a collection of 10+ Stirling engines of various types (solar, liquid fuel, and warm surface: Both High-delta & low-delta). Was into these 10 years ago. I actually built the S E Coffee cup kit version & git it working. Purchased a range of Bohm S.E. kits too (not cheap at all).

    Ford had demoed one in a car that was more efficient than std petrol engine but was a little slower to start.

    Am also well aware of 1 company in Aust/NZ who have been producing very effective Stirling Cycle engines for use in remote areas and boats for well over 5 years. WhisperGen – These can be used to generate electricity to a degree.

    Sorry but Andrea’s claim makes no sense to me at all. I had considered WhisperGen were a shoe-in for the home eCat 18 months ago and figured it was pointless me suggesting them as they were simply so obvious and easy to find.

    Something is wrong here ? Hate to say it but there is !.



    • SammyM

      Yep. Something doesn’t add up.

      • GreenWin

        +1 I suspect it is engineering. There are few Stirling gensets off shelf. Conversion of only 15% of a E-Cat HT to electric will not satisfy expectations.

    • Karl

      Agree I recall most of the suggestions proposed here have been up to discussion among us on this and other sites or suggestion to Rossi numerous times seen on his blog. I had a brief look into the Cyclone Power Technologies steam engine a year or two ago, as it was proposed earlier as a potential complement to E-Cat. I thought, perhaps it could be used for fixed application and later for mobile -cars as the strategy of Cyclone seemed to be cars and mobility.

  • Bob Greenyer

    This has been on sale in the UK for years, the stirling engine has something like a 25 year warrantee

    • Patrik

      Baxi Ecogen is also sold in Germany as Brötje ecogen. A few German manufacturers have also Stirling based micro cogeneration units in their product program. Theay all have an electric output of 1 kW and 15% electric efficiency, i.e a lot of heat is produced for heating.

  • Gerrit

    over at ECN Mary Yugo (who goes by the name of Al Potenza there) is experiencing severe criticism from other skeptics for weaseling his way out of testing the Hyperion.


    • GreenWin

      Ultimate irony is MY has insisted upon a “stage magician” as a part of her DGT test protocol. Ostensibly to capture the DGT scientists engaged in “sleight of hand.” Priceless indeed.

  • nightcreature3

    I wonder if Rossi has also considered the rather advanced, Stirling based, Thermo-Electric Generators developed by Infinia. Infinia corporation has developed these TEG’s for use with their tracking solar concentrators.

  • AlainCo

    Think also about Ericson engine… a variant of stirling with valves.
    I know someone who designed such engine for wasted heat recuperation in cars.

  • Dutchman

    The comment that stirling engines are not the kind of thing one finds in an industrial or domestic setting these days is not true. In my country (The Netherlands) most houses are heated by natural gas. When not providing heat to the home the most recent models of units then use a sterling engine to provide electricity back into the mains for which people are reimbursed by the electric power company. These heating units with sterling engines are quite common today. (But the output power is very limited)

    • fortyniner

      I assume that the waste heat from the recovery cylinder of the engine is simply cooled by air flow through these units? If so, then using such devices to generate electricity as a primary function would make sense, with warm ‘waste’ air from the recovery cylinder being directed either into the house when heating is required (warm air distribution system), or to a hot water heat store when electricity generation is required but home heating is not necessary.

      The waste heat could also be recovered by a simple water heat exchanger into a closed circulating system, with the warm water being used to supply fan radiators, or being directed to the heat store. A heat pump could be added to further increase the efficiency of such a system.

      I hope that whoever makes these units is aware of the advances in cold fusion going on right now – they would seem to be a perfect match to a small domestic CF reactor (I won’t grind on about my views concerning the likelihood of domestic units being ‘permitted’ by TPTB).

      • NT

        Swapping out the natural gas heater for a hot cat seems like a no brainer for these kind of home units already being used in the Netherlands. It would seem much easier to get ecats permitted for these uses in forward thinking countries such as the Netherlands. Of course, Rossi would then have his units quickly reverse engineered – comes back to the same old problem with Rossi on protecting his IP as one of the biggest hurdles he has to overcome…

  • Martin Åkerlund

    Kockums are using Stirling engines in their submarines.

    Maby they got something that might fit the e-cat?

    • GreenWin

      Interesting. Stirling engines have been around long enough for very mature designs. Unless Ing Rossi’s comment is not genuine or lack of informed consent has paved failure.

  • MStone

    Maybe the shape of the e-cat needs to change in order to optimally thermocouple with a sterling engine.

    • fortyniner

      Actually, the original hollow cyclinder ‘hot cat’ design with most of the heat seeming to come from the inner tube would be just about right for a Stirling engine.

      The central tube would simply form the heated cylinder of the engine. Such an engine could even be externally fired to the operating temperature, using CF to ‘leverage’ this relatively small energy input to drive the device.

      • MStone

        Using the cylinder as the piston? can you shake a hot-cat like that?

        • Roger Bird

          Let me go check my E-cat to see. . . .[time passes while Bird checks his E-cat] . . . . yep, a little vibration is good for the E-Cat.

          Seriously, I would think that it would be good to shake up the powder a little.

  • Jack

    Sterling engines have not been commercialized because they are not suitable for automotive use. They are great for fixed generators and would be perfect for the E-Cat. The E-Cat may in fact be the perfect application for a Sterling engine. This may be the time for the Sterling engine. Unfortunately they do not now exist in mass production quantities. It is time to bite the bullet and develop one.

  • Pedro

    Isn’t the problem largely from the assumption that all manufacturers of stirling engines read JoNP? Rossi invites them to send him a proposal, but most manufactorers will never read the invitation, and those that are made aware of it might even not botter because they ‘know’ cold fusion is not serious. If Rossi wants a stirling engine, he has to get off his pedestal and go shopping on the internet.

    • Pedro

      I just read Rossi’s responses about that he had asked manufactorers for offers… So he’s activily contacting suppliers… My comment above was premature.

  • Robert

    Kind of frustrating. Rossi provides reason to be optimistic about him/his Ecat (the recent Hot Cat test) and then he posts something like this!

    While it might be probable that there is not a stirling engine that is exactly “plug and play” ready off the shelf, to say “I arrived to the conclusion that does not exist any Sterling Engine mature” is quite extraordinary.

    The Ecat is not “mature” nor ready for production. Stirling engines have been around for decades. Again, maybe not a “plug and play” unit that he can unbox, attach a hose and start generating electricity, but to say not “mature” is very strange.

    He either has not truly looked into this option or it is a smoke screen. There are stirling engines available. The connection between them and the Ecat might take some engineering as we have seen no heat exchanger for the Hot Cat yet. This is not a stirling engine problem, but the hot cat not being “mature” yet!

    I assume that the 1 MW cold cat would require too much electrical input power to be worth trying to convert it’s heat output to electricity.

    Rossi is such an odd case! He does some remarkable stuff, but then seems to “shoot himself in the foot”. This is one of those cases. To make an announcement that he “wants a stirling engine” and then states that none are mature enough is a severe case of back pedaling. ??? Odd and frustrating.

    • Stephen Goodfellow

      Why not just keep it simple – hot tea & coffee? This would also to thumb the nose at the sarcastic jokes made about fold fusion over the years.

      • winebuff

        Just use the cold cat for heating and cooling at least your half way off the grid…right?

    • Deleo77

      You make some really good points. It almost seems like Rossi is treating it as a hobby. How long did he look for a Sterling engine – 3 weeks? And now he has given up and moved on to something else. Certainly a major company wouldn’t behave that way. He just seems like a hobbyist inventor with this remark. And what about his major manufacturing partner? They don’t have any ideas on this?

      • Roger Bird

        You are speculating way too much for few the data points that we have, and the data points aren’t even for sure. For all we know he is furiously looking for a Stirling engine or even flying to Sweden to consult with the Swedish Navy or who knows what. Stop fretting, please. Everything is OK.

        • winebuff

          He’s too eratic that’s what turns people skeptical of him its of his own doing.

          • Roger Bird

            Well, at least he doesn’t run THREE sentences together like some people I know. (:->)

      • NT

        Yes, this is a very strange knee jerk reaction from Dr. Rossi at this point in his progress with the hot cat based on all his previous chatter regarding great progress with it and his new partner company. Kind of lets the air out of one’s sails a bit…

  • springro

    Go ask Dean Kamen/DEKA Research. He has a history of working on them and is known for impressive solutions. DEKA should be in a good position for looking at customizing a stirling engine.

  • hitcher

    even NASA developed a Stirling Engine for automotive use, with great efficiency.

    But for E-CAT use, the best ones used for solar power plants should be optimal.

    There are also bigger and cheaper ones, ready for 3rd world applications:

  • Dwayne
  • Warthog

    Who cares and why the fixation on “Stirling Engines”?? There are other cycles and working fluids that require only small “delta-T” to work that were developed for geothermal and/or ocean thermal sources, and these are far more likely to be suitable for CHP (combined heat/power) home units that deliver both heating and cooling.

    And what is wrong with plain old steam?? Low-pressure steam drove the industrial revolution.

    • fortyniner

      A simple steam boiler has to be the primary goal, at least for Rossi’s ‘hot cat’ designs. If Rossi doesn’t cover this option ASAP, DGT probably will with their HT reactor. Only high volume steam boilers will allow the retrofitting of existing coal, oil and gas fueled steam turbine generator plant – probably the single largest potential market there is for CF reactors, and one of the most secure, as far as IP is concerned.

  • GreenWin

    Product “Maturity” arrives with the informed consent of all parties to a venture. Lacking consent from a principle party is a blueprint for failure and an exercise in futility.

  • Al_D

    Rossi should check out They have a small Stirling engine and generator which uses about 10kw of heat at 1000c. It would seem to match up well with the E-cats stated output. They are in Ogden Utah and in Washington state.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Or….is Rossi sending everyone else in the wrong direction while he and DEKA are developing a Stirling E-Cat?

    • Allan Shura

      Laundries need clothes dryers.

  • Bruno

    I believe that some modern AIP (air independent) submarines (the non-nuclear types) use stirling engines. Specifically I’m thinking about Sweden’s newest submarines. Maybe the newest German ones too.

    • bang

      The newest german submarines are using hydrogen fuelcell systems and are market leader

    • LENR4you

      They use PEM fuel cells.
      Propulsion: 1 MTU 16V 396 diesel-engine[1]
      9 HDW/Siemens PEM fuel cells, 30–40 kW each (U31)
      2 HDW/Siemens PEM fuel cells each with 120 kW (U32, U33, U34)[citation needed]
      1 Siemens Permasyn electric motor 1700 kW, driving a single seven-bladed skewback propeller

    • Patrik

      I think the Swedish submarines have used Stirling engines for decades….almost….By the way, ASEA (now part of ABB) did some work with fuel cells in submarines in the sixties.

  • Bruno

    What about Lonnie Johnson’s JTEC (Johnson Thermoelectric Converter)?

  • weirdizum

    The stirling engine never got the R&d that steam engines got due to the difficulty/cost in building them. so steam engines have about 50-60 years more development behind them. The reasons behind using a stirling engine really only comes down to there greater efficiency which at low temps is impressive but the second you are operating at high temps you have to start contending with heat saturation levels in the working fluid which requires you put energy into cooling the radiator down, which is fine if you have a large body of water for cooling but not if your having to run a refrigeration system to maintain the cold side of the cycle. The high temp stirling engines have generally been installed on sea going vessels (ship/submarine), i seem to remember there was a attempt to design a sub running a stirling engine from a nuclear reactor as stirling engines are much quieter than the steam cycle (I think there’s some diesel subs out there that do). I digress, high temp stirling engines exist but you need a dam massive radiator and they will never be off the shelf components.

  • Cat J

    Rossi and the major industrial partner have a remarkable research and development strategy. While building a factory to mass produce a miraculous LENR heat source, their chief scientist is trolling the web on an obscure web page to find a place to buy a Stirling engine.

    Doesn’t this seem a little odd?

  • N810

    I wonder if SES would sell off some of their (CSP) dish engines stilrings?
    (since they went bankrupt due to new and improved photovoltaics)

  • BroKeeper

    Will Ing. Rossi read these posts or will you relay these suggestions via JoNP?

    • I am pretty sure Rossi doesn’t normally read the comments here. I can alert him to them, however.

  • KD

    The problem probably exist in, that Rossi is looking for engine already existing in production so he can redesign his E-Cat to work with it.
    On other side the engine makers want to see the E-Cat so they can redesign theirs devices to work with E-Cats. But Rossi without IP security, will not give E-Cat to somebody, he can’t trust.

  • Sean

    Meantime while boilers are in discussion, I need a hot cat right now for my 7 1/4″ Flying Scotsman No.4472. I am building. 3 Cyl. + superheated @ 12HP. I have a Stirling cycle engine but not enough power for locomotive use. However I am keen to follow another physics direction, when one day, we will have a nearly 99% efficient solid-state thermal to electrical converter without the rotation of mass. ECAT direct to electricity will be key to its success.

    • Kim

      We could have a lot of things in this
      life if only the “Money People” “The Academics”,
      and the “Supposed flat world Scientists”
      would quit sucking their thumbs, Being anal
      retentive, and quit assuming the fetal


    • fortyniner

      Sean – 7 1/4″ electric locos wouldn’t be quite the same! I’m impressed by your ambition in building 4472 in that scale. My own ‘garden railway’ consists of a modest SM32 layout with a variety of miniature meths-fired locos and a couple of radio control battery ‘diesels’ for the kids (the small variety).

      • Sean

        Your right. Good hobby is trains. Steam started the industrial revolution. Needed Welsh coal back then. Could fit the hot cat to boil my water. Perhaps I can put the thermal electric converter in the smoke box / funnel when the new physics supplies it to me then will have a better than 20% efficiency steam locomotive LOL. Also I will send you my recovered electricity down the tracks to power your locomotive. So we all need to order a brand new Hot Cat each plus a thermal electric converter. There are so much more things we can do when the new physics arrives. It will happen.

  • Kim

    Bottom line is that if the E-cat is
    producing continuous heat as indicated by
    Andrea Rossi, than the Sterling Engine will
    drive a generator to electricity.

    If it does not than we have a problem!

    What he is saying is that I can’t produce
    enough electrical energy at out put
    to exceed input!

    Bottom line. We ain’t their yet.

    Electricity production is the Holy

    Main Stream will not pay any attention
    untill this happens.

    They could care less about thermal
    energy or steam for that matter!


    • Kim

      I think that people are becoming
      so anal retentive that nothing is
      being accomplished or is languishing
      because of fear, money and non-communication

      I think Andrea Rossi owes us an explanation of why he can’t turn
      a simple heat engine to make electricity.

      Come on……geesh!!!


  • Domdi

    Here is a link to massive Stirling engines used in New Mexico:

  • georgehants

    July 31st, 2013 at 3:15 AM
    Dear Andrea,
    The company Green turbine (The Netherlands) has been mentioned here a few times already.
    Now this company claims to have electric generators (compact steam turbine) at 1.2kW for sale (off the shelf) and probably their 2.5 kW version as well.
    Their 15 kW version seems to be under development/testing but could be ready this year in August/September, according to their March 2013 newsletter.
    They have a large machine company backing them up as a licensee this is SMO (Belgium).
    Are you in any contact with this company Green turbine or otherwise SMO?
    Kind regards,
    Andrea Rossi
    July 31st, 2013 at 6:57 AM
    I asked them an offer, no answer received, yet.
    Warm Regards,

  • georgehants

    Ian Walker
    July 31st, 2013 at 6:44 AM
    Dear Mr Rossi
    I assumed those who posted would be able to get you to commercial suppliers Stirling engine suppliers, so did not post earlier.
    Here is one:
    If you want more I can get you them, I have some skills in finding things.
    Kind Regards Walker
    Andrea Rossi
    July 31st, 2013 at 6:55 AM
    Ian Walker:
    We asked them an offer, no answer received so far. Obviously, your help is welcome.
    Warm Regards,

  • Arnie
    As far as I understand they have produced Stirling engines for at least five years now. Read an article in Mats Lewans magazine a few years ago:
    If they can’t deliver, then no other company can either…
    But I have no clue if they contacted Rossi, haven’t seen them mentioned at jonp.

  • Kim

    The DGT Experiment was good.

    But what is really bothering is that the
    final product of steam is always stuck down
    some hole or wall and we can get a visual on

    The steam should have been screeming from
    this pipe at these temperatures.

    or have been very visual

    We need to see the steam!


    • atanguy

      That bothers me too Kim, any comment from Matt who was there? It seems to me that he looked at the exit of the water and asked a question?

  • andreiko

    Philips Stirling Generator!

  • SammyM

    I found Andrea’s response to Ian Walker intriguing.

    ‘Andrea Rossi
    July 31st, 2013 at 6:55 AM
    Ian Walker:
    We asked them an offer, no answer received so far. Obviously, your help is welcome.
    Warm Regards,

    There seems to be a common pattern here. No offer and no response from various companies. A surprising and revealing admission. Is Mr. Rossi asking for our help? Does he want us to send emails pressuring or at least getting their attention? He does state, ‘Obviously, your help is welcome.’

  • Pedro

    Wouldn’t you expect Rossi’s large partner company to look for a matching stirling supplier. Large companies like GE, Babcock and Siemens have special departments that are responsable for finding the best supplier. My guess is that with these large companies, the R & D people have to go through these departments and normaly are not allowed to find their own suppliers. After all they are going to build millions of eCats per year. Anybody who can confirm from own experience?

    • Thierry

      I’m a little disappointed. If Rossi’s partner was a big company like GE, Siemens, find a suitable stirling engine or create one won’t be a problem. It’s completely crazy that Rossi need help of the community.
      Ecat isn’t a new dishwasher or oven. It’s the future of energy and millions (billions?) profit.

      • Roger Bird

        I think that some of us are fretting about things that will seem very small and unimportant with a bigger perspective and longer time frame.

  • artefact


    CERN lobbyists targeted disinformation spread about E-Cat and Cold Fusion

    • GreenWin

      It appears that a group tired of the F UD against Rossi and LENR in general has some surveillance software able to track down and reveal the true identity of tr o1ls like MaryYugo, Popey, JNowman etc.

      It will be wildly amusing to watch these people try to squirm out of the identities. As some of the FUD is delivered by people at CERN and traditional physics research centers, there will be many embarrassments coming. Many of these research centers are tax payer financed – when the public is informed their tax dollars have paid for basement-level tr o11s and d’bun ksters – LENRgate begins.

    • Ivy Matt

      More like, some German dude who runs a fansite devoted to the Large Hadron Collider also posts comments skeptical of Rossi’s E-Cat. Stop the presses!

      What I want to know is: what’s the connection between Rossi and the feng shui industry?

      Here’s the original source of the allegation:

      • GreenWin

        Ivy, the real story is in the use of anonymizer busting software that traces tro1ls in spite of VPNs and fake IPs. That’s just bad news for the trol1ing biz and MYs who may indeed suffer some serious blowback.

  • LEVI Strauss

    Why can’t a Rankine Cycle Engine such as Cyclone Energy’s “Schoell Cycle” be used. They have developed it for use with any heat source or waste heat. They’re partnered with huge companies such as Raytheon and even DARPA. I understand they are partnered to bring out their waste heat engine commercially this fall. Their external combustion engine will run on any fuel that can produce enough heat to make steam. They have used solar, Moden Fuel and all types of liquid, solid and gaseous fuels. Just wondering…. I’d think it should be investigated as a possible,

  • humblemechanic

    There must be proven designs of Stirling engines of the size/s required in the catalogues of more than one manufacturer, ready to
    make/assemble when ordered. Very large electric motors are not off
    the self items, they are produced to established designs when ordered.
    I think large Diesel engines are made on the same basis and some
    manufacturers could have design of Stirling Engines that could be made
    to customers orders. Rossi could get a one-off in a very short time and
    since it would be such a good accessory to the E.Cat and with Rossi’s plans off mass production a few Stirlings would not cost much since the
    manufacturer could look forward to big production numbers.

  • LenS

    Stirling and small steam turbine engines typically run at 10-20% efficiency.
    Rossi said his current designs have a COP of 5, so you’d get about as much electricity out as put in, plus a lot of heat at the 2 sites generating electricity.

    • Stephen

      Ah… something heating without any input would already be a MAJOR demonstration.

      However D2 up here posted a link to an engine with net efficiency 30-40%.

      • psi

        You are late to the party. This has already been demonstrated.

  • D2

    I don’t think he’s looking very hard. I found this in less than two minutes of search engine research and it seems ideally suited to what he is talking about:

    • Stephen

      No surprise. He always talks about magic perspectives and then he always has an excuse… Very bad omen.

      This one seems to have 30-40% net efficiency. With COP 5 means you get 150-200% the input electricity. This should have been done two years ago. Or it is not working as declared. Or there is another explanation I miss, but I don’t really see it now.

      • Roger Bird

        I think that Stephen does not believe in the E-Cat. Is that the case Stephen? Have you been following this for the past 2 years? Have you been reading the literature, particularly the May 2013 third party test? Have you read this: I define a skeptopath as someone who claims to be a skeptic but who refuses to look at the evidence.

        • guga

          I don´t like the “S” word. One can not post around here questioning what Rossi is doing without being called a “skeptopath”, a word that is clearly being used in an insulting way.
          You have to stay open minded in any direction. Proof that Rossi has the thing seems pretty good already, but Rossi has been doing and is still doing strange things and sometimes also writes things that are clearly wrong.
          Strange is for example to look for a Sterling engine via a comment on his homepage. This is clearly not a good sign concerning his partner.
          Stephens argument is also true. It shouldn´t be so difficult to build a self looping system with a generator. That is what everybody is waiting for since years. The fact alone that this doesn´t exist yet is enough reason for some healthy skepticism.
          Also that COPs in (public) tests (both Rossi and DGT) were far lower than usually claimed and that the devices need continous high electric inputs to run are another source of doubt. Defkalion claimed to get a COP of over 20 already more than a year ago. How hard can it be to generate electricity with a little more than 5% efficiency?
          I know, there are scientific papers … Sadly, a lot of measured data proves to be wrong later. Frequently just nobody ever finds out, because nobody ever cares about a specific measurement any more. Of course there are the reports even from Mitsubishi and Toyota scientists. But if they really got something already many years ago, why aren´t these companies producing millions of LENR devices already. Maybe they really just didn´t find the magic sauce, but isn´t that a reason for some doubt?
          LENR fans demand from others to stay open minded. Then be so yourself. You will probably use the “S” word for me too now. You probably won´t believe me if I tell you that I´m trying to convince friends of mine that LENR really exists? The case looks good for LENR, but the story is not over yet, and if you like it or not, there is still plenty of legitimate space for skepticism.

          • GreenWin

            Maybe you should READ the report from May 20th by seven independent, highly qualified scientists. If you cannot grasp the implications, perhaps you are in the wrong place. Have a nice day.


            “Computed volumetric and gravimetric energy densities were found to be far above those of any known chemical source. Even by the most conservative assumptions as to the errors in the measurements, the result is still one order of magnitude greater than conventional energy sources.” Levi, Essen et al

          • guga

            No, I don´t think I´m in the wrong place. Of course I know this report. And didn´t I write that the evidence for LENR is pretty good, that I believe in LENR myself (since long before the report BTW)?
            Still, some parts of this whole story are strange and I find it legitimate to point that out.
            Stay open minded please, no thought police.

          • Stephen

            +1 to guga… GreenWin, stay open minded, no thought police here. I agree with guga.

            I have NOT said the eCat is fake, relax. I have just said it’s not proven yet, because it’s NOT. Like it or not. And I don’t like it, take a deep breathe and relax.

            You should admit AR is always behaving kind of strange though…

          • Roger Bird

            guga, there is a difference between a skeptic, which I am, and a skeptopath. I have been wallowing in edgy subjects for decades. So I should know. I merely tried to gently direct Stephen in the direction of evidence. Perhaps I should not have used the “SP” word, yet.

          • Stephen

            Thanks for having doubts on the SP word. Ok maybe I am a bit overcritical at times but I think it is not very useful to just focus on patting our own shoulders here about the glory of the eCat. I honestly think often there is too much “talking” with respect to facts, or even in contradiction with facts!

            The real “battle” is on convincing wider public lern is real. i am disappointed at times because I think all this talking is not vey helpful.

          • Roger Bird

            I spend time every day telling people. I also think that both Rossi and Defkalion are having stability problems, particular in the higher COPs. No stability, no commercialization. Other than that, I think that LENR+ is a fact.

        • Stephen

          What evidence Roger? I know quite well everything which can be found on the net about LENR and all the rest. I believe there is real science in LENR and I am in quite neutral way&see mindset on these reactors. I have just said that AR is claiming to have COP 5 and that he cannot produce electricity because he has no off-shelf Stirling engine: this – after talking and talking about plugging a Stirling engine to the eCat – sounds fishy to me.

          Can I please state that? Or anything one say on the negative side about the eCat makes one immediately a skeptopath?

    • Omega Z

      Their best system is in the 20% range & is still in development.
      Not an off the shelf system & still not efficient enough. Probably need a minimum of 25%

  • Stephen

    FISHY… as usual!

    Dear AR, somebody paid you to discredit the subject or what? Please if you have something, prove it. If you don’t have it, stop telling stories that in the end turn into nothing. Why off-shelf Stirling engine…? Show us ONE prototype and then feel free to complain about the lack of a mass produced version… but at least you have to demonstrate once this is real. You’ll see that mass producers will then rush to your door to give you the perfect Stirling engine for ur application.

    • GreenWin

      Stephen, you seem unfamiliar with the last two years of E-Cat development. If you READ this document from Cornell University’s ArXiv pre-print science server you will learn a lot:

      “Computed volumetric and gravimetric energy densities were found to be far above those of any known chemical source. Even by the most conservative assumptions as to the errors in the measurements, the result is still one order of magnitude greater than conventional energy sources.” Levi, Essen et al

      • Bernie Koppenhofer


      • Stephen

        GreenWin, I am quite familiar with those data and I think this is an exciting story. In my opinion you should admit though that:

        1. All this is still not 100% sure, sorry… as even stated by the authors of the NON-peer review article you are linking (you can post almost anything on the Cornell arXiv, just sign in and submit… go ahead!), who participated to a non-independent third party test of a black box. In stating this, pls note I find it ~impossible to believe LENR are delusional – I think there must be something real – and I find it equally hard to believe both that AR/DGT are full scammer AND that these semi-commercial reactors really work. And, of course, no problem: my obvious hope is that it’s all real.

        2. AR is a master is keeping things in the fog and I honestly don’t understand why he does that. I find it quite disappointing. This story of the lack of an off-shelf Stirling engine, as argued by many others on this blog, IS FISHY. Maybe he does this on purpose for some reasons or he just likes to be mis-trusted, but it is fishy.

        Blind believing is as absurd as blind skepticism, I just would like to see facts and I am bored at stories that do not make much sense.

  • Orlando

    As Andrea mentions in today’s 6:57AM reply, Green Turbine has a product that converts steam to electricity and can work at high temperatures. They have not replied to my queries either.

    • hempenearth

      They replied to my queries within 24 hours and provided quotes. I don’t understand why the USA partner can’t just buy a couple of turbo/generators and do the engineering to link it up with a Hot Cat. Unless the USA partner is not that “big”.

  • GreenWin

    Maybe OT but this is why nuclear fission and hotfusion are D E A D:

    “They [TEPCO] let people know about the good things and hide the bad things. This culture of cover up hasn’t changed since the disaster,” said Atsushi Kasai, a former researcher at the Japan Atomic Energy Research Institute.”

    The sooner we begin the difficult but necessary task of retiring fission and fossil fuels – the better for humanity.

    • Robyn Wyrick

      Thanks for posting this.

    • georgehants

      GreenWin, good to read something interesting and important rather than continual circular speculation on things that will become very clear as time goes by.
      Another Dogma of science like Cold Fusion being blown apart below.
      Scientific study turns understanding about evolution on its head.

      • GreenWin

        Thanks George, very interesting.

  • Anonymole

    Assuming the usual caveats regarding Rossi’s veracity, Rossi has no business attempting to supersede all the thousands of engineers in the world who will take working LENR cores and adapt them to hundreds of uses and applications. Let the experts leverage LENR once it’s viable. Think Arduino, FPGA, Motorola 6805, plastic, the ICE, the steam engine itself; just build and sell the cores and then GET OUT OF THE WAY – the world will use them in ways unimagined by Rossi. Any other speculation of the customization of an end solution is just a reason to delay.

    • Jim

      The problem with that is that it’s much easier to sell a complete product. Selling half a product, one that just generates steam, means that he has to try to sell it to engineers capable of finishing it.

      Making it a full product, a complete electric generator, means he can sell it to anyone.

      Also, selling just the core means that the other half has to be designed with the core in mind. If Rossi makes both parts, he can redesign the core to match the generator needs.

      Admittedly, I wish he’d get on with it. Generating electricity from steam shouldn’t be that hard. He’s got the tough part invented. The generator part doesn’t even have to be that great initially.

      • Anonymole

        Jim, to the ultimate end users, sure, a complete, shrink wrapped product with UL approval with instructions and a help line connecting to a customer service rep is easier to sell. But that wasn’t my point. A LENR core is more like a battery. A specialized battery for sure but it’s not nor should it be the end product with value add in some narrow fixed market sense. It’s a miraculous step yes, but a transitional step along the way to an amazing array of end products. None of which Rossi or DGT or any LENR mfg. should be producing.

    • HHiram

      He can’t do that because his process cannot be patented. To get a patent, Rossi must have a firm theoretical explanation for LENR. He does not have this, so no patent will be granted. Instead, he can only protect the E-Cat as a trade secret. This makes licensing the technology very difficult/risky. Instead, his company (or partner) will have to manufacturer ALL E-Cats and E-Cat-related devices, otherwise they will simply be copied.

      Probably they will be copied anyway.

      But this is the most likely explanation for why Rossi is not just patenting the process and selling licenses to develop all manner of devices for different applications. Instead, he is focusing on perfecting a commercially-ready E-Cat device himself.

      Unfortunately, this makes the development process MUCH slower, so we are all waiting and waiting…

      • Anonymole

        Any LENR core sold with some sort of “value add” will be immediately disassembled – like all the Engadget’s “Teardown” posts, and the the core will be used just as I predicted up above.

        “Yeah, sure, sell me a LENR based washing machine, heh, heh, heh, I’ll just rip the core out and build my own version of a LENR powered [fill in the blank here].”

        And any commercial LENR core manufacturer will know this, instinctively, and avoid trying to build a better washing machine and get into the business, hot and heavy, of building and selling the cheapest, most powerful, most easily integrated LENR cores ever.

        If LENR ever becomes viable it will be the manufacturers that commoditize LENR who make the biggest killing.

  • Red_Baron

    There are many options.
    This is one:

  • dsm

    Just for the record I posted these either here or at ECN well over a year ago.

    They are links to a NASA / Cleveland State University design for a Sterling engine powered by LENR and suitable for use in space. It is IIRC now just under 2 years since published at a NASA GRC event.


    • R101
      • dsm

        ABC tonight at 8:30 – Mate Dick Smith explaining the seriousness of energy shortage. Dick is a genuine believer in improvement but still regards LENR/LENR+ as a scam (DGT and Andrea).


      • Lukedc

        I too will be watching this evening.
        It will be very interesting to see if Dick mentions the million dollar Rossi E-CAT challenge…. That will make for some interesting commentary.
        Anyone overseas should be able to watch it online through the ABC streaming service.

        • Dsm

          As we saw there was no mention at all of LENR/LENR+ and that unfortunately reflects a real world view.

          The good side of there being no mention suggests that Dick was not willing to mention the $1 million bet that no one was willing (able?) to claim. An optomistic interpretation of this is that he is open to something happening. The negative side is the possibility he has so little opinion of the potential he didn’t see any need to even mention it.

          We keep talking about the potential so I will be sure to keep him posted on any developments as he does have influence and can make good things happen.


        • R101

          No mention of LENR from Dick. A tad disappointing but I think he must’ve made that doco a while back.

          • Lukedc

            The million dollar challenge was over a year ago. He knew full well. Typical grandiose self obsessed elitist Dick in action there. Could have been confused into thinking it was a private showcase for his fleet of avionics. What a wank.

  • reader

    “Sunpower is a recognized world leader in state-of-the-art, highly efficient, low mass, reliable Stirling machines. Since 1974, , Sunpower, the originator of the free-piston Stirling engine (FPSE), has developed and delivered fully engineered engine prototypes and preproduction units for a variety of fields of use in aerospace, military, household appliance and research industries at power levels ranging from 35 We to 7.5 kWe”

  • Thinks4Self

    I think the stirling engine play is nothing more than an attempt to make a demonstration rig. Can you think of a better way to prove the E-Cat is real then to run a stirling engine attached to a generator that provides power to the E-Cat and some other load like a high pressure sodium light. Mount it to a trailer so it can be taken to a garage in a neutral area. You could then fire it up for days on end. Rossi can have some one guard it and the observers can have some one make sure no fuel is added or wires attached. At some point the power used by the HPS light will exceed the power density of the whole rig being a battery and the E-Cat would be proven. The key is getting the right specs on the stirling engine and the generator so that the electrical COP is large enough.

    • Roger Bird

      That idea makes perfect sense to me. It certainly makes better sense than all of the other fret-based ideas that I have heard about Rossi’s stirling comment. I would hate to think that I was the most emotionally mature person in the room. If I put a microscope to my rug, it sure looks wild and bumpy and dirty. But for some strange reason when I walk on it, it feels just fine.

  • LENR4you

    In my opinion it is just a red herring.
    He wants to say that R&D is not yet finished, and then in a few weeks a LENR generator is presented to the world! ;-)LENR4you

  • dbg

    dsm mentioned Whispergen. Has this name come up before?

    Four pistons! A quick search shows one that was powering a boat, for sale last year.

    Thread worth reading. The company apparently lost its factory in Christchurch NZ in the big earthquake a couple of years ago and there are currently no plans to rebuild and start manufacturing the units again. But spare parts are available and there are second-hand ones around!

  • Sandy

    NASA has developed a Stirling engine that can power an automobile. This engine is compatible with nuclear power sources.


  • Omega Z

    I expected such a posting from Rossi & also many of the postings here at ECW.

    Stirling Engines are not yet to the necessary efficiency. Some appear to be, but aren’t. It’s in the details. Some which are misleading.
    Examples would be 30-40 percent based on Carnot cycle is not 30-40% efficient.

    Some in the 20% plus efficiency range are in development so this would NOT be off the shelf & 25% would probably be the minimum that would be cost effective.

    I would also note that many I have come across are also individual built. Not a mass produced product & Very Expensive at this time.
    For the most part, Aside from fancy Web Sites, They are not in major production.

    Stirling Engines have mainly been a Novelty Product that is working it’s way to being a Niche Market product at this time & has a long way to go. Primarily, these companies are trying to market to the Big Boys & it’s a tough market to crack.

    All this Said: I think once LENR products(E-Cats) are available, Development will increase at an accelerated rate. Efficiencies will increase & prices will come down.

    Simply because they can build them to a specific standardized product rather then trying to be a product to all waste heat possibilities. More focused rather then a scatter shot. I would expect them to eventually reach a 35-40% efficiency over time.

    • georgehants

      Good analysis explaining the current situation.
      A good reason to believe a Sterling engine has been found that does it’s job as advertised is if Mr. Rossi buys the bloody thing.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Omega Z…good post, I agree. It is just a matter of time as Stirling engines become more efficient and the E-Cat’s efficiency also increases.

      • Barry


  • Joseph J

    Do you remember that post (riddle?) where Rossi was talking about “we drink a Coke because smoking is banned”? (cant find that post nomore)
    I think he was referring to Deka.

    The Coca-Cola Company has partnered with Deka Research & Development Corporation to deliver millions of liters of clean drinking water to schools, health clinics and community centers in rural regions of Africa and Latin America in 2013.

    Smoking ban zones listed
    NTCP (Assam) nodal officer  Arundhati Deka, who is also the deputy director of health department, told The Telegraph that every district has been asked to carry out a survey of all public places and make a category-wise list of them, including the total number of places and their locations.

    At some point, Rossi spoke of “He” (Dean Kamen?) Is committed to …..

    Stirling engines

    Water purification

    I hope this is the US partner

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      If they are, why is Rossi asking for help with Stirling engines?

    • Omega Z

      I believe it was-

      “We drink Coke because Alcohol is banned”

  • Verner Bruun

    Reka in Denmark are developing a Sterling engine.

    26- 30 % efficiency at 35 -40 bar.

    This engine is in the last stage of testing.

  • Verner Bruun

    Reka in Denmark are in the last stage of developing a Sterling engine.
    25 – 30 % Electric output, at 35 -40 bar.

  • PawelS

    I think this would be perfect to work with e-cat:

    New Thermocell Could Harvest ‘Waste Heat’ from Power Stations and Even Vehicle Exhaust Pipes

    Harvesting waste heat from power stations and even vehicle exhaust pipes could soon provide a valuable supply of electricity.

    “The device offers the possibility of a cheap and flexible design suitable for harvesting waste heat in the 100- to 200-degrees Celsius range.”

    “The advance we made with this system was that we are generating more electrical energy than any previous power cell in this temperature range,” Dr Pringle said.

    What do you think about this?

  • Dutchman

    The remark thst the stirling engines are not the kind of thing one finds in an industrial or domestic setting these days is not true.
    In Europe gas boilers for heating the house are these day high efficiency ones with electrical output (In my country, the Netherlands called hre boilers hre = hoog rendement electrisch or in English high efficiency electrical). These boilers have sterling engines which are driving a dynamo. This generates electricity which is returned to the power grid, for which you get reimbursed. The striling engines used in these boilers are about 1 KW and in the setup used in the boilers have an efficiency of more then 30 %

  • BroKeeper

    I have a question for the Electrical and Thermodynamic Engineers: Couldn’t multiple Sterling Engines running in series or parallel off the same E-Cat add to the total electrical efficiency/power? The concept is that all heat cannot be extracted from one heat sink (Sterling Engine). The attached Sterling generator outputs would act similar to batteries either in parallel or series depending on required needs (amperage vs. voltage)? Just a thought.

    • Dutchman

      I wonder if the principle of a sterling engine allows for putting all the units on the same output axis. Thus couple them mechanically and use one generator. If this is possible it would be the simplest solution.
      If you use an alternater per sterling engine the easiest way would put the outputs off all generators in series, assuming you have DC generators. (Because when usibng AC akternaters the currents wiil be out of ohase and can not be combined) Putting DC generators in parallel requires a diode per generator to prevent feeding current from one generator to the other. The diodes however are giving an energy loss. The other possibily would be to have a solution based on electronics which combines the output of all alternators to one (regulated) output.

      • BroKeeper


        Is this possible and has this been proposed to Ing. Rossi before? Or is he ten steps ahead of us? Be interesting to know the reasons. Thanks.

  • Al_D

    Has a small Stirling engine usually coupled with a generator mounted on a parabolic reflector for sun energy. It uses about 10kw heat at 1000c. It would seem to be well matched to the requirements of the e-cat.

  • Babble

    What is really amazing is I have mention Cyclone Power several times on this blog. Obviously that was lost effort but for the last time, they make a waste heat engine that could be coupled to an e-cat. It converts heat to rotation which could drive a generator. I looked on the Journal of Nuclear Physics site but can’t find any request. Here is the link to Cyclone and this engine is going into production.

    • Roger Bird

      I seen references to the Cyclone many times. It is very sexy.

  • Red_Baron

    There mechanisms stirling for electrical energy gneration already available for sale in the market, anyone can buy. the most efficient are the pistons free stirling, have efficiency above 30%. are commonly used in parabolic solar that produce electrical energy through the heat of the sun.

  • Mason

    It is all very strange about Rossi and Sterling engines.

    After quickly reviewing Miley’s presentation about his own CHP unity I found a website showing EU residential CHP units that are a good reference point to Miley’s cost/benefit estimates. (The WhisperGen and Baxi Ecogen are the best examples.)

    After looking at the complexity of what is inside each CHP unit, I am curious how Rossi thinks he can out-engineer the original OEMs, especially if another LENR company like Defkalion or even Lenuco chooses to sell the LENR-core to those OEM’s having very strong and specialized engineering skills.

    Something just doesn’t sound right.

  • comentor
  • Barry

    Can anyone tell me if a backyard system of solar reflectors aimed at a Stirling engine would be able to produce a useful amount of energy?

  • Prof Gavin Kenny

    I have followed the use of Stirling engines to produce electricity and heating primarily for boat use, but there is a system developed for home use:

  • Anonymole

    Great Stirling engine video: (p1) (p2)

    First it’s a heat cycle generator, then it’s a freezer, then a cold cycle generator, then it’s a heater, then it’s a heat cycle generator again. Bloody amazing.

  • Wisintel

    I think this adequately solves Rossi’s main problem. How to convert the heat from the E-Cat into usable energy. The article below references using sunlight to create steam that reacts with a cheap metal oxide to produce hydrogen. There is no reason the steam could not be be created by Rossi’s E-Cat. The only question would be, “Would the E-Cat produce more Hydrogen with this method than it consumed?”

    As a metal oxide compound heats up, it releases oxygen atoms, changing its material composition and causing the newly formed compound to seek out new oxygen atoms, said Weimer. The team showed that the addition of steam to the system — which could be produced by boiling water in the reactor with the concentrated sunlight beamed to the tower — would cause oxygen from the water molecules to adhere to the surface of the metal oxide, freeing up hydrogen molecules for collection as hydrogen gas.

    “We have designed something here that is very different from other methods and frankly something that nobody thought was possible before,” said Weimer of the chemical and biological engineering department. “Splitting water with sunlight is the Holy Grail of a sustainable hydrogen economy.”

  • Nick

    Stirling engines are used in solar dish accumulators quire regularly. There are two main systems that I’ve found:

    1. United Sun Systems. They acquired Stirling Energy Systems in 2012.

    2. Infinia Corporation –

    Both tend to make units in the 1-10kW range mostly.