Overcoming the E-Cat Stall — A Proposal (Guest Post)

The following post was submitted by E-Cat World reader Rick Allen.

For two decades, cold fusion (LENR) researchers have worked to make their anomalous heat effects powerful, repeatable, and robust. With Rossi and Focardi’s announcement of the E-Cat in January 2011, many cold fusion enthusiasts felt that their dream had come true. Andrea Rossi’s nickel-hydrogen technology was, and is, a marvel. Producing extremely high levels of output while producing almost no radiation or nuclear waste, it’s a source of power that supersedes any other alternative energy solution: wind, hydroelectric, or photovoltaic. Also, importantly, another company, Defkalion Green Technologies, has demonstrated a Ni-H reactor that also seems to produce high levels of output. When the almost staggering results of these two companies are combined with the countless other confirmations of excess heat being produced with nickel and hydrogen reactors, it proves beyond reasonable doubt that the phenomenon is legitimate.

But there’s a problem.

Although behind the scenes, in the private labs of various companies, progress is being made, very little information about this discovery is available in the public domain. Except for a couple of one megawatt reactors that Leonardo Corporation may have leased privately to partner companies, there is not a single Ni-H reactor on the market. Even worse, the vast majority of ordinary people – who are not reading Rossi’s blog, PESN, or E-Cat World – are almost oblivious that this phenomenon exists. They have no idea that a total solution to the world’s energy crisis is already here.

Very few people are taking Ni-H technology seriously because the major players – Leonardo Corporation and maybe, arguably Defkalion – are not providing a formula that would allow the “Rossi Effect” to be easily replicated. This is to be expected. Both Rossi and Defkalion have spent millions of dollars developing their technology, and they refuse to simply give away their intellectual property. What’s so frustrating is that the situation is probably not going to change any time soon. Both of these companies are involved in continuous development of their technology for commercial purposes. It may be years before they are ready to share the “secret sauce.” Until that happens, the population of this planet as a whole will remain ignorant of this incredible discovery. Even if a working plant is put on display and a customer reports satisfactory operation, the mainstream scientific community will probably dismiss it as a fraud and the highly controlled media will refuse to report on it. It will take hundreds of replications from around the world to break through the prevailing mantra that cold fusion is impossible and pseudoscience. Also, it’s likely any public showing of such a plant by a major company is years away.

Just imagine what would happen if a formula that could produce equivalent results to the E-Cat was distributed openly. I’m talking about a formula that would include a detailed parts list, a bill of materials, construction details, and operating guidelines. In a short time, full functioning “Rossi Effect” reactors would be operating all over the world. It probably would not take long before companies in countries with less bureaucratic regulation than the USA, like China, would be using the technology commercially – at least in a few heat producing applications. Before long, thousands of teams of scientists and engineers would be developing the technology. Most importantly, the world would recognize, without a doubt, the existence, reality, and importance of the technology.

There’s no technology being developed anywhere on the planet, as far as I am aware, that holds as much immediate potential to benefit the world as the E-Cat. And I’m only talking about the heat producing aspect of the technology. Even if cold fusion only had the ability to cheaply replace the use of coal and fossil fuels in conventional power plants, it would still be the equivalent of a cosmic “golden egg” for humanity. But the technology will evolve far beyond heat production. Andrea Rossi reports that it holds the potential to produce electricity directly. Can you imagine a Ni-H battery in your phone that lasts for years? A tiny reactor – without the need for a steam turbine – to power your home for months without refueling? An electric car that could have a range of fifty thousand miles or more?

All of these wonders are possible with the “Rossi Effect.”

The question is, do we want to jump start the use of this technology now, or wait for years until more information is disclosed from the major players? I personally think that for the sake of humanity, there must be an effort started to produce a working formula for Ni-H technology, immediately. If we delay, humanity will simply remain in the dark ages that much longer.

I firmly believe this can be done. Both Rossi and Defkalion have released significant bits of information about how their technologies work. For example, the size of Rossi’s nickel powders (micro instead of nano), the tubercules that exist on their surface, the special processing mentioned by Defkalion, the radio frequency stimulation utilized, and the importance of atomic hydrogen are all important clues. If a serious, focused, and determined effort was made to utilize these clues, I think a working reactor could be developed.

But it wouldn’t be easy. Rossi spent years performing hundreds or thousands of experiments to develop his formula. I expect that such an open source project would require many experiments as well. What I envision is a lab, either in one location or distributed, that would perform test after test in standardized mini-reactors. Dozens or hundreds of them would be loaded with different catalysts, stimulated with different frequencies, and filled with nickel processed in different ways. Eventually, after a period of high throughput screening, we would learn what works and what doesn’t. When all the things that “work” and aid the reaction are combined, we would end up with a system as robust – or maybe more so – than the E-Cat.

Such an effort would require many things: a full time staff of competent, skilled workers, a decent facility for the experiments to take place, a web presence where all the results are posted, and an abundance of funding. If all of these things could come together – and everyone could get along – we could potentially come up with our own formula that could change the world.

My idea may seem similar to what the Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project is set up to do. I think the MFMP is a well-meaning organization that should be commended for their efforts to replicate and promote LENR. My point is not to belittle their work in any way, but to point out that we need a larger, more active project that is specifically focused on discovering a formula that can replicate the Rossi Effect.

Of course this could not happen without money. The way I see it, if online fund raising efforts can collect millions of dollars for unimportant things like video games and marginally useful gadgets, there must be a way to raise enough money for this project. I’ll openly admit that I’m not sure how the money should be raised or exactly how much would be needed. But somehow, due to the urgency involved in developing this technology, it must be acquired.

One drawback of this project is that, if successful, it may have an impact on the plans of the “major players” I’ve already mentioned, in addition to the smaller players. However, in a world that runs on energy, I think there will be a place for every cold fusion (LENR) company that currently exists. With a trillion dollar energy market, all these for-profit companies can make their millions or billions. What the project I’ve proposed would do is allow the Ni-H industry to get jump started for the good of humanity.

In addition, an open source formula would make sure Ni-H technology is not held back by excessive, bureaucratic regulations in first world nations. Steam technology, when it first started being utilized, was dangerous. Boilers would sometimes blow up. However, the technology was commercialized and rapidly advanced. If today’s draconian level of safety and certification regulations existed back then, it could have taken steam technology another forty years to be broadly used. In such a scenario, much of the technology we use today could have been held back. Can you imagine if were still at the technological levels of the 1970s? I for one am glad for the progress we have achieved.

So how should such an effort be organized and setup? I hope that readers of E-Cat World are willing to work together on making this happen. I firmly believe there is enough interest, intellectual capacity, and financial resources in our community and beyond to start such a project. It will certainly require the leadership of committed and qualified people of like minds to be successful, and I believe there are people who want to participate in such an effort.

I’m tired of waiting. My desire is to see the “Rossi Effect” be recognized as real by the entire world, be broadly utilized, and end the age of fossil fuels. There needs to be an open source, civilian style Manhattan project to bring this technology to light. Let’s make it happen.

Rick Allen

  • Kim

    I like the word stall.

    Deliberate stalling. and it could go on for years.

    Respect
    Kim

  • Donald

    The naivety of e-cat followers never ceases to amaze me. If the effect is real and a new type of nuclear reaction is possible, do you really really think it can be marketed without delay? What if there are dangerous side-effects that nobody, including Rossi, knows about? Rossi has been relatively quiet for a few months, undoubtedly pondering these and other issues. You would think it is the end of the world by the wailing and whining from the ‘I-want-it now or I’m gonna start bawling’ brigade.

    • fortyniner

      Please don’t generalise. Many ‘e-cat followers’ posting here are working and ex- scientists, engineers and business people who are far from naive. In general the level of awareness of the realities of R&D in a new technical area is high, as is the awareness that disinformation and ad hominem attacks are used on discussion forums in an attempt to curtail the spread of this information.

      Only a certain breed of ‘skeptic’ seeks for its own purposes to paint all proponents of the technology as naive and childish – as you are attempting to do.

      • georgehants

        Morning Peter,did you catch this, we won’t find it on the BBC I think.
        ——
        Radio carbon dating shows the pyramid to be at least 24,800 years old.
        http://www.prweb.com/releases/2013/4/prweb10657023.htm

        • fortyniner

          Morning George. Thanks, I’ve been following this story but missed that one. There seem to be quite a few ‘anomalies’ that may indicate that the idea that the ‘modern’ human race spent at least 50,000 years living in caves then suddenly began building civilisation after civilisation a few thousand years ago needs some modification.

          • georgehants

            Peter, great stuff is it not.
            Do you follow the many artifacts found in coal etc. dating to millions of years.
            All debunked by science of course but very compelling.

        • Jo Josni

          This is from the “about us” page at the “New Era Times”.

          in view of the possibility of human error of the material published herein, The New Era Times is not responsible for any errors or omissions or for the results obtained from the use or dissemination by its Readers of such material or information. Therefore, Readers are encouraged to confirm any information contained within this website with other own sources.

          Here is a quote from the Wiki page on the Bosnian Pyramids

          Amar Karapus, a curator at the National Museum of Bosnia and Herzegovina in Sarajevo, said “When I first read about the pyramids I thought it was a very funny joke. I just couldn’t believe that anyone in the world could believe this.”[1]

        • GreenWin

          Fascinating. I had not heard of these structures. Probably because mainstream archeology/anthropology has refused to confront the “anomalies” they represent.

          As Yogi Berra might say, “It’s cold fusion all over again.”

          • GreenWin

            Here is another link to the “energy” component: http://bit.ly/18TRqGc

          • georgehants

            When science grows-up one day then we can at last just find the Truth on every subject. (where possible)
            Will it ever happen, I think that would take a genuine enlightenment.
            The silly fundamentals of the hysterical evolution myth, with about the same Factual basis as G.W. seem to be leading the World into a deep regression of intelligence and common sense.
            If brains keep declining at the present rate then I calculate that we will be reproducing ourselves as earth worms in about 40 years.
            Some I feel are already most of the way there as the Cold fusion scientific response and handling shows.
            Well back to watching some adverts and wishing for more money to buy things I don’t need.

          • Barry

            Heh heh heh.

  • fixer

    the only test of undeniable proof use the steam make electricity meter input and output. anything else is a waste of time. never ending argument of nothing more then efficiency of a method with to many variables.

  • Joe Shea

    Rick Allen has excellent ideas. For me,however, the pivot point is the DOE and the government. It would require a government that not only talks about the importance of alternative energy, but fosters devices like the E Cat that may disrupt existing providers but would rapidly change the world for the better. OTOH, I can understand why AR would be disturbed these ideas, as it presents a direct challenge to his applications for patents. He is an incredibly poor spokesman for his ideas, and his failure to engage a PR firm with some history of introducing new products may eventually lead to the demise of his entire operation. To maintain current dominance of the LENR community,
    cryptic notes and utter secrecy will not suffice or serve him well.

    • AlainCo

      unlike fake energies which consume more money than they produce, LENR need no subsidies !
      it need no impediment by over regulation, lobbies, doomers, and salesmen of fear…

      just wait to see defkalion getting public… if nobody prevent them to (hum, not sure), it will be bonanza.

  • Richard Hill

    There is here two base assumptions 1. that the “Rossi Effect” is completely scalable and 2. that application of money and effort can scale it up and “end dependence on fossil fuels”.
    Surely, large corporations like Toyota would be only too happy to make that happen, they are known to have investigated it, and they would sell a lot of cars if they didnt need fuel or grid power.
    There is lots of free energy around, eg geothermal, solar,,,,. The cost is in tha gathering and conversion to useful electrical power.
    Perhaps the “Rossi Effect” is similar. Maybe it will alsways be an edge option like geothermal. Even if Big Science is not interested, I believe that the Japanese Government would welcome some alternative to importing fuel oil and LNG. They have the need, resources and the people to take it further. Why do you think that its worth doing something more than the Japanese and the MFMP people are doing now?

    • Rick Allen

      The MFMP and other players in the cold fusion field, as far as I am aware, do not have a serious project to replicate the Rossi Effect. By serious, I mean multiple tests taking place simutaneousIy twenty four hours a day. A test every week or month is not going to yield significant results.

      • Richard Hill

        Rick, you are correct about what is known to bloggers. But, can you explain why the Japanese Govt. and large Jap concerns like Toyota and Mitsubishi are not working frantically behind closed doors on this issue? The japanese have no vested interest in conventional energy. They have a great exposure to international pressure on oil and coal. We know they have worked on cold fusion in their corporate labs. They funded later work by F&P, I think.

    • Rick Allen

      For our purposes we would not be seeking to scale it up. In fact, testing a dozen smaller reactors at a time would be more economic and simpler. Once we hit the right combination of features (nickel processing, catalyst, rfg, etc) we can test a standard 10kw hot cat. Enough 10kw modules can power the world.

  • georgehants

    I say again the fault lies completely with incompetent and corrupt science.
    Does anybody disagree that one editorial in one of the premier scientific comics on the current Evidence, would open the floodgates on Cold Fusion.
    Only then can politicians and the media be judged or blamed for not publishing reports on the subject.
    These people take their lead from official science as given by the “respected” scientific establishment.
    All the while they distort and corrupt science with their silence and denial then things will stay the same until a fully working device is openly and check-ably on sale.
    Guys even though many of you may be scientists you have a responsibility to the World to demand that your establishment becomes honest and takes steps to change it’s horrific un-scientific ways in many areas.

    • AlainCo

      right, their only fault.

      all else did their job.
      capitalist invested, oil company invested, researchers researched…
      then the science comics decided it was false, and end of the story…
      capitaliste and few scientist worked in their bat-cave, until one get crazy and wounded enough to face their fatwa.

  • georgehants

    Cold Fusion Now
    E-cat South Asia Technology Update
    http://coldfusionnow.org/e-cat-south-asia-technology-update/

  • khawk

    My thinking is that Rossi’s people understand the need to test, introduce and scale this invention responsibly and as quickly as possible. Imagine the displacement and disruption on a global basis if this is real and it is not handled correctly. And what gives you any confidence in this administration’s present iteration of the DOE? My guess is that your assumption that stewardship is not part of their mission is likely incorrect. Patience.

  • andreiko

    The ROSSI_EFFECT is a complicated process, the means to create this process are simple, control of this process in all its possible applications will require much effort and time and patience!

    Assuming that Dr. Rossi has established itself on an aircraft carrier, it seems to me pointless, the path where Dr. Rossi nautical miles before us.

    • Deleo77

      I think Storms said it best in his interview. Don’t jump the gun and create a product, or even a formula, without a theory. The only way he says that you will get reproducible results is to create a working theory of LENR. If Rossi’s or DGT’s reaction works, why does it work? If it only works sometimes then that’s not good enough. Only a working theory will lead to a consistent result. Storms said he has a theory, which he believes is the correct one, and he said it is complicated, or he said there are a dozen other theories out there to choose from. LENR needs a big scientific theorist to come along and present an E=MC2 like set of equations. That to me is step one, and there are probably only a handful of nuclear physicists in the world who could probably pull it off. Maybe it is Ed Storms or Yeong Kim, or maybe it is a college kid in some corner of the world.

      I appreciate Rossi labeling his theory the Rossi Effect, and he says that a team of scientists are working to validate it. But who are they? Are they theoretical physicists?

      • Warthog

        Storms is wrong. Having a theory could “theoretically” speed things up, but Edison had all the “theory” he needed before he started building the light bulb. He still had to do thousands of experiments to get it to work as a commercial device. Likewise the original development of the steam engine. No theory at all, and the science of thermodynamics was not developed until years later. Is theory helpful…..yes. Is it essential…..no.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          I don’t think a successful product needs a theory. It only needs to prove itself a useful and efficient product.

          The Griggs Cavitation Pump has been a successful product for years, without any scholarly theory as to why it works.

          • Omega Z

            Iggy

            “I don’t think a successful product needs a theory”

            A Theory does needs a successful product. 🙂

            Else you need to fix the Theory…

        • Ted-X

          Storms is wrong. Experiments should be done to pick up the best theory fitting the experiments. Theories are just models and there are already many of them and all of them might be wrong. Even the best theory will not be perfect, complete or without limitations. Theories can only be proven wrong. Pure logic.

  • enduser

    Suggesting that governments, science institutiona and/or business change their spots doesn’t help at all. I think what Rick’s idea needs is a follow-up “crowd sourcing” fund raiser, and then a committee to manage the funds and employ a few start-up engineers. Maybe a few engineers might donate some time?

    Approaches to start-up venture capital peple might help with funds.

    Anyway, to get the ball rolling we need a committee and chairperson to bring these threads together. I bet there are some here who’ve done this in their lives, in a more conventional setting, and might be the people to do it again.

    Who will start?

    • Rick Allen

      Sounds like a good idea to me.

  • Karl

    Good article, I certainly share the frustration why it is so difficult to come forward more quick as it is so urgent to come up with solutions that can help to solve the energy and environment crises plus minimize the need for war to grab these resources.

    I gather that the silence and debunking in main stream science and media to continue until no remains of oil and gas is to fight. This seems clearly the case in the Syrian and middle-east conflict where super power war machines is set up to control oil and gas resources. There is obviously much at stake for most humans on this planet.
    ___

    When Rossi started his demos he opened a glimpse of hope. By having an innovator and entrepreneurial background I believe I partly understand the difficulties Rossi et al has to attract funding. Normal innovations needs normally to rely on the patent process. In the CF cases patenting may not be impossible but still very difficult. This because there is no accepted physical theory to back the phenomena. Further neither the patent offices nor the mainstream science or the main stream media is very helpful rather the contrary. Normally you need all these components to attract funding. I must admit I’m very impressed how
    Rossi have progressed so far and manage to fight with all these factors working against him.

    Crow funding have been shown to be a possible route for some projects. Typically you need to clearly visualise the end product like a smart clock, an added solution to a smart phone, etc. On the contrary, it is much more difficult to package energy and infrastructure investment attractive for crow funding. Unless you can clearly visualise a “smart product”, present a plan and funding requirement I think this route is very difficult for CF alike project still. This kind of project can easy attracts millions if they are cleverly packaged.

    To create trust by online demos and visualise possible products like Defkalion has done may be a way to attract funding. E.g. by listing the company on the stock market. This is one way and I think this is a possible route. Their business model also seem reasonable while they seems to open up and licence their technology to multiple established industrial players in various segment. It depend who Rossis partner and how he or the partner play the game by to me Defkalions plan seems be more developed.

    The alternative to form a broad open source movement seems appealing but I gather very difficult to organize. I guess Martin Fleischmann Memorial Project have experienced this. As long as the masses are not reached with the information of the possibilities and the clear visions shown who it can “solve my eventual problem or help me to be rich or save the world”.

    I believe the strongest and quickest drives still originates from the few innovative and entrepreneurs that lead the race – rather than the collective. On the contrary the most ideal situation could be if Rossi or someone with key knowledge open op the technology in such a way that it will be attractive and create a necessary boost, spreading the visions and engage many more in the process. This could also help such innovator (whistle-blower) and prevent main stream players or whoever controlling them to continue to keep people in the dark from this clear possibilities.

    • Rick Allen

      What about plans for an ECAT kit being offered to attract funding? For example, a ten kilowatt device capable of providing heating?

      • Boris Ivanoff

        Good idea but how to do it? You need a working unit to demonstrate before you sell kits, don’t you?

        • Barry

          I agree, Rick how will your plan (though I like your enthusiasm) surpass all of the other researchers like Celani, M Swartz, Duncan, McKubre, Hagelstein to name a few. They’ve been working on what you propose for decades

  • Stephen

    Mhhh… I have to admit that I was surprised to read (I am somewhat young) what happened in the past 20y in science and cold fusion, LENR or however we want to call it. Yes, to some extent people have behaved and at times behave in an unscientific and irrational way, I share this view.

    On the other hand, I think the stall discussed here is 100% due to AR and DGT. The effect they claim is huge, I am still convince that if they really want they can demonstrate it in such a way that no reasonable person could seriously doubt about it. In my view we are still not there. DGT has run an interesting show. AR – one has to admit – often behaves very strange… there have been non-negligible demos and tests, plus tons and tons of stories. However it is still not possible to 100% prove this thing works (now don’t say I am a pathoskeptic, even the guys from Sweden said it is not sure yet). On top of this one has to add past AR problems with justice. I don’t want to comment on that, but surely that makes it harder to trust him.

    Finally, I disagree about the timeframe discussed in the post. DGT claimed to go on stock exchange this October and promised to disclose the identity of the partners and – if I remember correctly – to provide more proof of what they have.

    About trying to run an eCat clone… I think it is not forbidden. I would not expect any public funding on this specific plan, given all that happened. I would not be surprised and I would not see any particular conspiracy in that.

    • Rick Allen

      Even the most open and detailed test by a single group of scientists will not convince everyone. The propaganda and lies against cold fusion have heavily manipulated the media and scientific community into thinking LENR is a fraud. The only thing that will work are hundreds of replications around the world and widespread adoption of the tech in nations with less draconian safety regulations. I personally don’t think Rossi or Defkalion will be revealing anything that could convince the world this technology is real anytime soon. If we want to prove that this tech is real, we have to do it ourselves.

      • Boris Ivanoff

        Well, that’s hard to say, isn’t it? I mean that so far, the tests done involve mainly people who already know Rossi or have worked with him before. The same seems true about Defkalion.

        If there was one (or a few) truly independent test of either technology (Rossi or Defkalion) done by a famous lab, unrelated in any way to Rossi or Defkalion, what would the skeptics say? What could they say?

      • Stephen

        No, it probably won’t convince everyone and I agree with you: there have been some exaggeration so one can expect more overcritical reactions in the future. I think many errors piled up on both sides.

        On the other hand if there is a really reliable test, mending for instance some of the mistakes done so far (experiment done in an environment which is not 100% under the control of the testers, etc…) I think this will start to seriouosly convince those willing to listen and having an open attitude. Differently, as long as it is not really sure that this is real… I won’t expect reasonable people in the scientific community/press to move as they would be themselves under the fire: we have all seen it can be an harsh and dangerous fire. You don’t put yourself in that kind of situation until you are really sure it is worth doing that.

        About proving the thing ourselves. Ok, assuming the reactors really work, we have few extra hints now… but remember smart people have been trying to fabricate reactors for 20+ years. You should be aware this “reinventing the wheel plan” is a pretty tough thing to achieve.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    MFMP on steroids, it won’t work. Trust in our capitalistic system, with regulation, to bring LENR to market.

    • AlainCo

      ah ah, I have worked in free-software…
      no evil, no holy…

      Capitalist entrepreneur don’t do it just for money, but for proving they were right to the losers…
      and open entrepreneur do it for the same.

      MFMP as a platform to prove LENR to the mainstream is a classic open initiative… it could have been funded by an industry body like lenr-cities…
      when proven, expect for many actors to develop competing solutions, and to cooperate on some common subjects…

      coopetition is a key concept in emerging industry, for small actors… mutual assured development is another… for what I understand it is the kind of ideas pushed by LENR-cities…

      for those who don’t like capitalist (mixing with crony capitalist and corps) just say “entrepreneur”!

      the economic system that works, in not communism, not capitalism, it is entrepreneurism… I’ve seen it work in poor countries, and it is very resilient, it redistribute, develop local communities, create inventive to innovate, and to share also. entrepreneurs depend on their community, unlike corps.

    • Hoiytre

      Patience is a virtue. Rossi and Defkalion are pretty vocal about their efforts, but trust me, there are major players with technology more advanced than these two. One obvious choice – Brillouin – is low key, but it is no accident they are working with SRI and not the self-proclaimed Rossi Effect.

  • frank sedei

    Rossi is no longer the keeper of the “secret Sauce” since NASA, the military and his business partner have been involved. You can bet on that. It is probably a relief for Andrea not to be the sole keeper of the secrets. The real issue appears to be that of controlling and regulating the enormous heat generating from the invention. I am surprised the secret formula, or sauce, has not been leaked like so many other secrets. Or, maybe it has.

  • Shane D.

    Rick,

    Judging from a comment of yours you don’t seem impressed by MFMP, but overall they sound to me the solution you seek. Up and running with a deep talent pool, a years experience and altruistic intent.

    Really, do you honestly think you could do better with your initiative?

    All MFMP needs is some serious funding to make them really get going, but as you can see that isn’t quite so easy. In a year they have brought in about $16,000. Not much.

    Most likely that is because public knowledge of cold fusion beyond a very few websites is low, so crowd funding is of limited value at this point. By the way, that is the very same problem you would encounter trying to mimic MFMP.

    Were MFMP to come up with one irrefutable result that is easily reproducible, that would also make some splash in the news… that could all change overnight and the money would start to flow.

    Instead of this endeavor of yours, may I suggest instead that you throw your full support MFMPs way? Going over to their site and making a donation would be a good start.

    • Rick Allen

      No one at the MFMP, as far as I am aware, has proposed a serious attempt to produce a formula that would allow anyone to build a hot cat. To do so we would need to perform 100 times the tests they are. As far as I know they have no interest in doing so. And one interesting test result showing a few watts of excess power is not enough to prove this technology is real. We need a formula that allows for kilowatts in self sustain mode at high temperatures.

      • Robert Ellefson

        Rick, may I suggest that you please seek to increase your awareness of our activities before making unsupportable assertions about them?

        You can start by reading the article about the intentions of the new charity organization that I am in the process of incorporating right now, which Ruby Carat wrote almost two weeks ago, at http://coldfusionnow.org/mfmp-launches-new-charity-for-expansion-of-live-open-science/

        Much has been happening outside of the blogosphere in support of these activities, and further announcements of large-scale developments are expected in the near future. However, during this particularly sensitive incorporation phase for New Fire Generation, we are limiting our announcements about specific activities until important legal prerequisites have been achieved. If you stop and think through what it really takes to get an organized funding stream established, time to carefully consider the legal implications of each your policy decisions is important, as is the cultivated good will and well-defined commitments of the principals involved in establishing the effort. So is approval from the governments where you will be doing business. In other words, it’s a “non-trivial” effort.

        If, after doing further research into the available information about our current plans, you have specific recommendations about how this process can be improved upon, we’re listening.

        • Rick Allen

          There are significant differences between what your organization is doing and what I have proposed. You seem to be building an organization to promote open source science in general in addition to LENR. That is a good thing. But my proposal is to set up an organization to do one specific thing and nothing else: replicate the E-Cat technology and share the plans openly. After that, the organization would close up shop. I would hope that my proposed organization would “do business” with no indivudual, company, or government. While striving to obey all laws, it would try to focus on getting testing started — in addition to fundraising — rather than spending large amounts of time and effort setting up the legal groundwork for an enduring, longterm — decades if things go well — organization like yours. Also, our organization would not seek approval from any government. It would only strive to abide by all current laws. Since the governments of the world has said that LENR is impossible, they should not have a problem if current laws are being respected. I see my proposal and the MFMP as being fundamentally different.

          • Robert Ellefson

            I see your description of our goals and my description of our goals as fundamentally different. For example, we are explicitly *not* planning “decades” of existence, we are planning a four-year lifespan, as described right in the articles of incorporation. Did you read Ruby’s article? This particular fact is mentioned explicitly there.

            If I knew how to accomplish all of what you describe while skipping all of the formal structure I’m laboring over, without undue risk of incurring legal trouble, I would certainly choose to go that route instead.

            In any case, good luck with your replication effort. It will certainly be wonderful if you succeed in your ambitions.

          • Rick Allen

            The problem is that in this world everything you do is illegal in some way because of the sheer number of laws, how the governments of the world can continuously change their interpretation of laws, and how in the name of national security and dozen other things they can act against you when no specific law has been broken. I have read of teenagers being convicted for drug crimes when legal chemistry kits have raised suspicion but no contraband substances were found.

  • Felix Fervens

    a few possibilities regarding the “stall”

    1) A sufficiently independent test would too easily lead to theft of IP; Rossi and DFK fear this and don’t allow

    2) Rossi & DFK purposefully foster a sufficient level of skepticism to prevent serious rivals from venturing to develop the technology before them

    3) Skepticism leaves door open for huge buyout of technology covertly, followed by dysinfo that it is fraud, experimental error, or other failing

    4) Preparation for production of commercial units is more advanced than we think & unfettered public access/purchase will come very soon

    5) Neither Rossi nor DFK has the goods, as advertised, and are perpetrating a fraud of some kind

    I am hoping for #4

    • Herb Gillis

      I think development may be somewhat less advanced than the hype would suggest.
      Both of these firms seem to backtrack after their latest episodes of hype.
      While I think that Dr. Rossi really has something (due to the Third Party Test) I also think he may still be having trouble repeating and controlling the “Rossi effect”. I have much greater doubts about the other firm.
      In regard to this proposal: I think it might be better to first hire a good detective firm to study these companies and report on how close they really are to having a product.
      I’m not talking about breaking the law or stealing trade secrets. A really professional investigation firm could find things in the “public domain” (from business records, financial filings, local permit filings, information about potential raw material suppliers, etc.) that would tell us if either of these firms are close to being ready to market something.
      Building a large “robotized plant” for components of industrial Ecats, like the one Rossi talks about, would leave a trail of information in public records. Public records are often NOT available on-line! They are paper documents filed in local government offices and courts.
      In addition; the nickel micro-powder would have to come from a supplier, especially if isotope enrichment is involved. It might be possible to look at the activities of companies capable of supplying these key raw materials in the quantities needed for a large Ecat production facility. It stands to reason one of these may be “The Partner”.
      This would cost a lot less than what Mr. Allen proposes. If the report is promising then Mr. Allen’s suggestion should be considered again.
      Once again; I am not suggesting or condoning anything that is illegal or unethical. It is common in private industry for companies to investigate each other, through information available in public sources. Those sources may be quite obscure.
      We cannot assume we know the whole story based only on what these firms tell us, or even based on what can be found in on-line searches.
      Regards; HRG.

    • Boris Ivanoff

      Under the first point (independent test leads to theft), what happens when the products are first sold? Won’t they be immediately copied and stolen? For example in China and Africa?

    • AlainCo

      Defkalion started to work on it’s reactor in july 2011 and got a working lab prototype in november 2011…
      they did not have huge team, nor huge budget, just the remaining budget of a company that have only other choice than to close.
      their only method was
      – to know it was possible

      This mean that when mainstream engineers discover LENR is real, like defkalion they will invent a method, maybe different in less than 1 year, and make it industrial in 1-2 years… Given the instruments that Defkalion had I bet it can be done in all lab on the planet.

      They just need some budget to subcontract XRF, Ni isotopes, and when it works, money will flow and they could build their own lab.

      If western ignore LENR, asia will develop it. if Asia ignore it, africa will develop it…

      the only reason LENR is not yet industrial is public incredulity.

      If you accept Defkalion is sincere (which you can guess from Nelson test report, from Matt presence, from their way to communicate and behave), you conclude they have a COP>20 today with R5, and a potential of 160 if they can self-heat (maybe more because the neutral COP is about 0.5, meaning that with perfect insulation you can increase it)…

      the only question raised by honest skeptics is that they seems unsure of their COP, causing fear of unreliability, and they may be short with money… This is not my main scenario, but it is clearly not to exclude…

      for rossi, his COP of 3 or 6, and the melting make fear of low COP and unreliability, but it is not to exclude he simply mislead us.

      opensource LENR is not required…
      we already have the best information to build a reactor:
      WE KNOW IT IS POSSIBLE !

      give me 2 million euro, and I launch a lab in Marne-La-Vallee, with interns, junior enterprises, professors, engineers and doctors..
      and sure a better specialist could do it for a quarter.
      double the investment, and we make a CHP, or a LENR-car.

      the big problem is only reliability, and safety. meaning that you may lose your millions, and goverment may bankrupt you like they banckrupted Rossi.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Please do not forget Rossi’s intgellectual property was stolen by Defkalion in July 2011 : The quote below is from the 11/29/2011 article in Ny Teknik written by Mats Lewan The above article quotes Alexandros Xanthoulis, President of Defkalion: “- Let’s say I have Rossi’s formula, but I do not say it officially. My scientists have found a way to accomplish it. They need three months. I know what is in the reactor. I know everything. It was done with spectroscopy at Siena University of Padova (…) They tested the reactor without [Rossi] knew what they were doing, he continued.”

      • AlainCo

        maybe they got the secrete sauce,
        but they don’t use it.
        first because it is too hard and unreliable, second because they have better, third because they don’t want an IP conflict and being accused of stealing…

        The only useful thing they stole from Rossi, is “it is possible”.

        in exchange Rossi took from Defkalion the
        “you have to work seriously with professional”.

        and since then, he clearly works better.

        competition is good.

  • Roger Bird

    Rick Allen, you mentioned that we had enough “interest, intellectual capacity, and financial resources”, but you did not include something that you had mentioned earlier: an ability to get along. I doubt if we have that. Some people here think that they have a monopoly on the truth and everyone else has to fall in line or else they get belittled, mocked, yelled at, and generally intimidated.

    • Jim

      Examples, please.

    • georgehants

      Roger, you seem upset that you cannot debate the Truth.
      Please pick your subject and I will happily listen to your Facts and Evidence that show this Truth.

  • Jim

    @Rick Allen
    I like your idea and I believe it is worth some effort. My fairly extensive personal experience is that it is possible in collaborative development efforts (including in fundraising and awareness-building, which is what your proposal initially calls for), to substitute some, but not all, hierarchical organization and leadership with process structure and collaborative document management.

    I think the SourceForge opensource software organization, along with other opensource software initiatives, are demonstrations that such approaches can product transformative results.

    What is needed first and foremost is a persistent platform for discussion and collaborative document building. I believe that Frank’s (Admin’s) http://lenrconnect.com/ site would be a good starting point, one that could be augmented by Google tools.

    Beyond that what is needed is a procedural framework for capturing ideas broadly in discussion, and then prioritizing, filtering and organizing those ideas into successive drafts of target work products (“funding proposal”, “promotional message”, “target contacts list”).

    All this requires much more discipline than making blog comments, it takes a good bit of time and attention to make it work, and you never know if you’re going to get sufficient participation for it to take off.

    While I don’t have the bandwidth to be the leader (again, there’s got to be a drum beater, until a core group of participants emerges) I’d be happy to advise on design, procedures and governance.

    If you want to give that a try, create a group on lenrconnect, add a discussion on “how to get started”, open it up for anyone to join, and announce it here.

    • Rick Allen

      Thanks for the suggestion. What do the rest of you think about a group in lenrconnect?

  • Kindman

    From what I heard from various articles about Lenr is that certain organizations are replicating the process. Universities, military, and anonymous paying customers are trying to replicate to see if this is real. That’s according to Mr. Rossi, and we can’t really verify the truth. Regardless, if you had a technology that was a game changer, you wouldn’t want the technology to be in the hands of one person.

    Though you wouldn’t want to give Lenr technology too freely, because the act of doing so would result in accusations of fraud. The best way is to slowly start with customers they know will keep trade secrets and pay royalties. When certain green lights give a go, universities will be curious, the physics community will make Lenr a reality by explaining to the world that “magic” isn’t magic, it’s the physics of what we know today which will further increase confidence in the Lenr technology.

    When governments and physicists say this is real. public officials such as politicians can have the will to say that this technology is a game changer. And can help push this technology via energy companies.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    I don’t claim to understand this but it seems that global alarmists are blaming the rising seas on the declining seas during 2011/2012….and the global warming is due to the cooling of the South Pacific during 2011/2012. In short, anything that happens, good or bad, is bad, and is due to evil mankind. Oops, I forgot…it’s no longer Global Warming. It’s CLIMATE CHANGE now, like that’s a new phenomenon.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-2398782/How-Australias-thirsty-Outback-soaked-water-like-sponge-causing-drop-GLOBAL-sea-levels.html

    • Bernie Koppenhofer
      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Bernie, I tip my hat to you for your superior knowledge in science and technology. Having said that, I think you’re wrong about man’s contribution to global warming and I really disagree with your ideas on 1 world government.

        Almost everyone on this forum is more tech-savvy than I am, but I do believe I have a knack for evaluating the relative tech ability of these forum participants.

        The smartest guy(IMO) on this(and other similar forums) stated that he was once a Global Warmist but after digging into the literature, he flip-flopped and is now a skeptic. And this guy is not a rightwinger like me.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          Iggy…..all I ask is that you read the above scientific evidence pointing to human involvement in global warming/climate change. As for “1 world government” I am against it, I am for world governments cooperating to reduce human suffering.

        • Barry

          Iggy, whether we are or are not responsible for global warming, there is so much dogma and opinion science on the subject, wouldn’t it be a good idea to cut down on pollution just in case? Then if the GW people are wrong the worst that will happen is we will have a more breathable atmosphere.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            Isn’t that why we’re all here? Because we think we’re on the threshold of cheap clean energy?

            If the GW folks get their way, they will bankrupt us all.

            Why do we have to quibble how many angels can dance on the head of a needle, when solution is near at hand?

            I believe in Rossi and I believe in Def, but I’m beginning to doubt that either will win the race. Remember that most inventors don’t publish their daily stream of consciousness on a blog. These forums have ignited the imaginations of hundreds, if not thousands, of experimenters. I make small donations to 3 of them. What’s the statistic…for every poster, there’s 30 or 40 lurkers? Don’t be surprised to see a “nobody” with a breakthrough.

    • Babble

      Sea levels are rising and Arctic ice is melting. Global warming causing catastrophic climate change is accepted by 95% of climate scientists with the other 5% being paid off by the fossil fuel industry. So we do need this source of energy to slow the disaster. Watch “The Politics of Power” with Chris Hayes for recent coverage.

      However, that said, Rick’s idea sounds a lot like the Soviets during WW2 who got spies to believe the world should have the atomic bomb secrets. China is good at this and some speak great English.

  • Adrian Ashfield

    Short of starting an expensive crash program like the moon shot, it is unlikely the government would do better than a dedicated entrepreneur like Rossi. DOE is a disaster and would would probably give the testing to hot fusion scientists who want to kill the off the project, just like they did for the MIT test that killed Fleischmann and Pons.

    As to nothing happening, have you already forgotten the tests of the seven scientists, funded by Elforsk, published in May? Forgotten that they will be running a six month test starting in a couple of months?

    If you believe Rossi told the truth about the E-Cat why doubt him about its development and construction of manufacturing facilities now? If you didn’t believe him,why are you even on this blog?

    With the various versions of the E-Cat, the Hot Cat and building 1 MW plants I think he has advanced as fast as one could hope for and I look forward to the next six months.

    • Rick Allen

      After the 6 month test there will probably be many months of work writing the report. Then most likely the partner company will spend many months trying to obtain safety certifications. Then there will probably be another long wait. Eventually, there may be another one megawatt plant demonstrated. But I think it will only create more controversy unless Rossi’s partner is a gigantic company like General Electric. The fact is unless hundreds of teams are replicating the Rossi effect around the world it will be many years until the world except the Rossi effect as being real. We cannot wait another two or three years for this technology to be accepted. The world is falling apart as we speak.

      • fortyniner

        Rick, I agree with your (to my mind) realistic analysis. Rossi has made no mention of publishing the results of a second test, and it may well be entirely for the consumption of whoever has commissioned it (Elforsk?). With Rossi now effectively an employee I think the days of being kept informed to any meaningfull extent are now ended, and (sorry Admin) IMO we blog followers will probably have less and less of substance to discuss as time goes by.

        I hope you are right about there being many others quietly researching CF, but even if they succeed, there is no guarantee that there will be any publicly available information about this. More likely, members of the energy cartels are now actively seeking successful research projects in order to acquire a piece of the action for themselves. Such corporate concerns have very deep pockets, and there will not be too many CF startup companies that could resist the kind of offer that would be made (or which could withstand the consequences of refusing).

        When enough corporate interests have secretly-developed viable CF generators at their disposal, and have taken decisions to replace their existing fuel sources, there will probably be a rapid shift in the atmosphere regarding cold fusion (i.e., the propaganda ‘story’ will recognise CF under another name, and propose it as the solution to AGW – IF the fake scare can stand up that long). An (apparently) overnight landslide towards manufacturing hundreds of thousands of generators and upgrading existing power stations will then take place across the world (as if the technology has come out of nowhere) and the taxpayer will be shaken down to pay for the conversion in the name of the ‘environment’.

        There may well be some limited jockying and competition, but essentially, the process will be controlled by the elite, for the benefit of the elite. The needs of the world’s population are unlikely to be a factor in their calculations. I believe we may now be in for a long wait for this to take place, with only small scattered developments in the interim.

  • BroKeeper

    “Be Careful what you wish for”
    A saying that recently has more meaning to me than ever before in this increased knowledge era.

    In one of the last posts I mentioned a neighbor of mine in Kettering Ohio, Ivonette Wright Miller, and the first American child to fly with her uncle Orville Wright. I often wondered at the peak of the Cold War during the early sixties what she was thinking when roaring over our shaking houses flying low within the approach path toward once was Huffman Prairie, now Wright Patterson AFB and the field she first flew, huge B52 bombers each carrying mega fusion bomb beasts within their bellies. Could she have thought “What have we wrought?”

    It is good and fine to want things to better our lives but under what conditions? There was long ago a very wise man (allegedly to many) that had powers to heal a certain crippled man. He asked “Do you want to be healed?” What!? What a question! Why would anyone not want to be healed? Here was a man that begged all his life because he could not fend for himself. Can you imagine the implications that followed when he was healed? A man without any educations, no skill set, no real friends or family to support him in a new strange world of self support. Did the beggar have the ethics, wisdom, control and the knowhow to adventure into the new unknown? Believing this as real or metaphorically does not matter. The truth still applies.

    Letting the genie out of the bottle may be too late or just in time depends on the conditions. Are we wise enough to venture into the questionable? Yes, questionable, are we certain there would be no consequences releasing the knowledge of such huge potential LENR power to the masses? Perhaps we really don’t know if the catalyst would meltdown immediately enough should a spontaneous reaction occur once a new understanding (or by chance) of the excitation, amount, formula, or nano-particles size (larger surface area) or the combination of all from a garage tinkerer like Steve Jobs. Remember we are dealing with lots of hydrogen in a can (fusion bomb). It only takes micro-seconds. (I did train in the Navy Nuclear schools).

    This said, yes, we can proceed but only if the ones in control have the wisdom. If there is anyone I come close to trusting with this genie-wish now it would have to be Andrea Rossi. He has experienced multiple times what human behavior does first hand by PTB wanting more under any circumstances. The last thing he wishes is to let the secrets out to the unrestrained. And we should too.

    Would have the Wright Brothers continued their invention had they known its descendants would have carried the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives in its belly?

    But then again do we really have any control of the future? Is there something greater than us (allegedly to many) intervening to prevent total destruction?

    Be careful what you wish for.

    • Rick Allen

      I want the formula for nickel hydrogen fusion to be spread far and wide. There will be both good and bad consequences. However, if this technology is not rapidly proliferated modern civilization may come to an end in only a few decades. I think the benefits of this technology far outweigh any possible negative consequences.

      • BroKeeper

        Could there be a population bomb following LENR successes? What great solutions to great consequences are we preparing for? There are cascade effects to nearly everything good and bad. We need to at least understand before free-falling. There is a price to pay for everything.

        • AlainCo

          the evidence from experience is that if comfort is increased, there will be a reduction of mortality and of fecundity…
          this mean a temporary growth, and a reduction of population.

          demography is doomed to stall beyond 9-10billion, and it is known since the 80s, even less than anticipated.

          • BroKeeper

            That’s good to know. Thanks.

          • Red_Baron

            All demographic studies show that the higher the level of satisfaction, comfort and quality of life of a population, will lower its demographic growth. People more satisfied, healthier and better educated tend to breed less, this is proven by statistical studies worldwide.
            See this news illustrative. http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/future_tense/2013/01/world_population_may_actually_start_declining_not_exploding.html

          • BroKeeper

            That makes sense to me. Better oportunities and choices for families. Great!
            Are there any other concerns we should have?

          • Barry

            Statistics show population decreases when it follows education. Technology seems to be simplifying the education process and making it more available to third worlds. Lets hope it keeps up Bro.
            Statistics also show a leveling off point of 10 billion by the year 2050. This sounds high but sustainable.

          • BroKeeper

            Barry, I think I’m beginning to see the point. 🙂

            If population levels off at 10 Billion, then LENR is the catalyst towards economical and cultural equilibrium I hoped it would be.

            I have never been against speedy technological progress to ease suffering. It’s the misuse of new technologies that suffering follows.

            Trinitrotoluene known as TNT was first used as a dye, yet after discovering its new use became the tool of choice for mass killings of many tens of millions in two World Wars.

            Yes, LENR will save and improve tens of millions of lives, but we are speaking of magnitudes of energy power far beyond TNT.

            We need to allow the scientists and engineers a little more time to prove this infant device is as safe as they assert. We want this to be a game changer in a positive way.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            My understanding of how Nobel transitioned from unstable nitroglycerin to stable dynamite, was mixing bentonite clay with the nitro. It wasn’t a smooth move. Nobel’s own brother was killed in the experimentation.

          • Omega Z

            Bro

            Increased Standards of living equal Population decline.
            LENR will quicken this process. I suspect the World Population could Top Out at 9 Billion if this technology spreads fast enough.

            The U.S. Calculates we need 2.1 births per household for zero population growth.

            At present, it stands at 1.6 per household. It’s lowest birth rate in our recorded history. Technically Negative population growth. Without Immigration, the U.S. would be in actual population decline. In 2012, they actually recorded more deaths then births.

            Though this is a positive point, I see a down side.

            According to the study, People aren’t having fewer kids because of population concerns, but for selfish reasons. Many couples don’t want the responsibilities of raising kids nor having kids inter fear with their freedom. Society is becoming more selfish. It’s all about me, me, me…

          • BroKeeper

            Now you are talking about the real issues. Thanks!

    • Jim

      Waiting for civilization to grow up may take a while. Meanwhile we’ve got tens of millions of people each year dying and physically and mentally stunted for lack of energy to support adequate health, nutrition and education. Seems like an easy choice.

      • BroKeeper

        I’m sure Homeland Security would be watching any negative PTB’s. I guess we are safe to dump.

        • Jim

          I’ll see your concerns about toxic pollution and raise you millions of starving, stunted children.

          I’m very confident that there will be a very large number of people that will throw every possible obstacle in the way of LENR-powered, inexpensive distributed energy, including a detailed examination of potential pollution.

          I’m going to jump on the other side of the teeter-totter.

  • Allan Shura

    The palladium-deuterium method appears simpler and could be expanded on
    by third-party innovators. The experiments have been open enough that
    they do not necessarily need a confidential step in the process.

    • Rick Allen

      Palladium deuterium systems have many disadvantages. First of all, palladium is an expensive metal. Secondly, deuterium is not cheap and commonly available. Third, palladium deuterium systems have never produceda large amount of power. I doubt they ever will.

      • Barry

        Palladium deuterium systems have produced a high COP. Mitchell Swartz achieved 80 COP for thirty minutes and 10-14 COP for months with his NANOR series. They are still in R&D. Scaling up is wrought with difficulty and often dangerous, but JET Energy is working on it. I agree with your first two points Rick, but the third is purely opinion.

      • Omega Z

        Rick

        Palladium deuterium systems may Eventually have more potential in the Future then NI/H, But they are more expensive.

        Also, From what I’ve read over time, It sounds as if there would not be enough to go around for everyone. Palladium is a limited resource. Therefore, If it should be better, it would be limited to Government domain where the addition potential verses cost may be necessary. Thinking Space applications, Etc…

  • Rick Allen

    So is there anyone who would like to step up and be an organizer?

  • Jim R.

    How about crowdsourcing this idea? I for one would give a LOT. The effort could offer contributors first dibs on a home reactor as soon as it’s developed.

    • Rick Allen

      The way I see it we first need a few people to stand up and be leaders. I’m not qualified. After that I think crowd sourcing would be a good idea. But I don’t think we should ever offer physical reactors — just plans that have proven to work. If you are interested in this project please feel free to take a leadership role.

  • Kim

    We would need a very practical proof of concept device

    A device that can be built at home using hardware items.

    Simple step by step instructions with elaborate illustrations.

    A device that produces a continuous flow of .75 liters/min hot water at 130F. and continues to do so without interruptions.

    COP of 3.5 or greater

    Plug it in, flip the switch.

    At the end of 8 hours you should have filled a 90 gallon tank
    with water at 130F. (approx)

    Let the person who built have the burden of proving the COP of 3.5

    Personaly I would be delighted with the abundant supply of hot
    water sitting in a storage tank. I could take it from there.

    Respect
    Kim

    • Omega Z

      Kim

      If 1 were skilled enough, he may be able to build an E-cat at home, but only if he should have a Machine Shop behind his house. Also, there is the computer & Software to be written for control.

      If I were younger & healthier & still had access to the necessary Equipment, I, Could do all the above. I have the skills to build the apparatus & program it Given the details. Note that I wouldn’t sell them. Liabilities.

      That said, Without the Nickel preparation, It would be useless.
      NOTE: That Rossi has said the Nickel Fuel is Cheap verses the quantity needed for the Core. He never said it was Cheap Per-say.(A few Grams @ a few dollars per gram. About 500 grams per pound.) I suspect the process is quite expensive in general. Possibly $1000 per pound.

      The E-cat presently requires electrical input which at COP>6 uses about 1200Kwh’s per month. At 11 cents per Kwh=$132. A Gas Water heater would be cheaper to operate. This may be why Rossi is looking to N-Gas as the heat supply for activation. However, this becomes negligible should they exceed COP>20 or 30.

      Many mention the Chinese mass producing E-cats & Flooding the World Market. I find this highly unlikely. It will take them decades just to fulfill their Own Needs.

      Rossi’s Concern of the Chinese isn’t them flooding the market, But that they would skip out on the Royalty Fees. 1 to 2 percent of Factory sales value, Not Retail. The Going Rate in most Deals of this Nature with Inventors/IP.

      The E-cat as we here know it is limited. What is awesome about it is it’s Future Potential. That will come from years of R&D.
      Many post of the Lack of Government Research into LENR. If Just 1 E-cat makes it into the Public Realm, They will spend Millions on Research. I DON’T Care. Reason- The Private Sector will Spend Billions on Research & product development. They will put the product to market. Not the Government.

      • Kim

        I mostly agree with what you have said.

        The 1200 kilowatt is only applied 1/3 of the time
        of the hour. 44 dollars a month. Still expensive.

        Electricity has the lowest state of entropy so is
        not a good idea to burn through it.

        Thermal Energy can not be converted back to electricity
        without a 1/3 or more loss.

        Electricity production is the holy grail and I believe
        that in time we will acquire the huger COP to accomplish
        the task.

        Your are right and this may be what he means by evaluating
        of the processes ect…

        Thermal energy for industry is the only pure application
        I can see at this time. There is an energy gain but
        not in the holy grail of electricity.

        Electrical production capability is the only thing that
        will make the MSM sit up and take notice.

        Respect
        Kim

        • Omega Z

          Kim

          The 1200 kilowatt is based on the Data from the LT-Cat & takes in consideration of cycle times. I posted it to Rossi then & he concurred that my numbers were very reasonably accurate.

          But your right about the new numbers of 1/3 on 2/3’s off. I don’t calculate the new figures as of yet as Rossi hasn’t provided enough clarity on the subject.

          I’ve posed questions to Rossi twice for clarity & both times was spammed. My posts disappear. Maybe he didn’t want the questions visible at the time due to the Mouse being R&D early stages & Leary of answering to soon.

          Answers to just 2 questions involving the mouse & actual hourly output would reveal a lot. Either Excellent or a back-step. I assume Excellent Gain as he would likely not reveal a back-step.

          Under the Excellent Gain scenario, I calculate a COP>32 but in reality subtracting start-up, Likely a COP>25 over 6 months average. It’s an Exponential thingy-on loss recovery.

          Reading your posts leads me to believe like most, you want this in your home NOW. 🙂

          I believe this is overly optimistic. The Present HT-cat technology at this time is well suited for local Power Generation distributed locally rather then from a hundred miles away. It really isn’t suited for home use other then for supplemental/Co-production heating in the winter. This is due to long start/stop times. It has to run 24/7. Actually good for some geographic areas but not most.

          The Big problem of power generation with the E-cat in homes is it wouldn’t produce enough electricity for peek demand & running multiple units to offset this eliminates cost saving benefits. It would cost more then you pay now.

          For in home use, A 10Kwh E-cat producing 3Kwh electric 24/7, Even if using half this energy for self sustaining produces enough power for multiple homes average usage. If You could store it in a battery pack & use it when needed. Yep, Kind of like Solar & Wind. Not yet perfect.

          At present, E-cat doesn’t fit our lifestyle. And people wont settle for less. It would need to produce a few watts one moment & 20,000 watts plus the next. People will except local Energy generation at reduced cost rather then the inconvenience of waiting for a refrigerator to cycle off so they can watch TV or BLOG. 🙂

          But, Maybe, In time these problems will be overcome.

          Oh- A final note- Once E-cats provide power to E-cats, N-Gas becomes less affordable verses Cheap Electricity.

          Have a good day Kim

          • andreiko

            Dr. Rossi and his team will strive to the residual heat after power generation, to keep in the menstrual cycle, this is possible because there should be no harmful substances discharged at conversion of thermal to kinetic energy.The previously mentioned possibility is precisely the uniqueness of the ROSSI-EFFECT.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        The early ecats appeared to be constructed of standard plumbing parts. Rossi claimed that his nickel powder was prepared by a 100 yr old man.

  • Red_Baron

    I think there should be action to all of us to investigate the truth of the allegations made by Mr. Rossi. I think the replication of the phenomenon described by him, without the specific details, maybe can not be performed easily. It is necessary to integrate a group of serious people, one committee, with members from several countries to identify with us. specialistas technical, physical, engineering, chemical, and are encouraged to find that the formula for the replication of the effect Rossi. For this, we could create an NGO whose aim is to find the operating mechanism of the effect or Rossi LENR and spread it freely. This would be the first step, the second step is to capitalize on this idea to fund serious research. How much money is needed? Establishing one number is required, so there is an objective factual. Assuming that you need a million dollars to replicate a viable LENR device. It would take 1,000 members affiliated to the NGO and each member would make a contribution of $ 1,000 dollars to fund research, managed by a committee of members previously chosen. This is one of the possibilities. However, there are people ready for a project like this? are willing to risk losing their contribution? I leave my suggestion for debate, criticism and improvement. Greetings to all and sorry for bad english, I’m using electronic translation.

    • Omega Z

      Red

      1000 members x $1000= 1 Million.
      Rossi has already spent many times more then this & still not completed a Readily Marketable product. He is still primarily doing R&D.

      • Red_Baron

        This is just a hypothetical number, could be 2 or 5 or 10 million, the adjustment can be made ​​with the number of members or the value of the contribution of the members. I formulated a hypothesis, just to illustrate an idea ok friend. Greetings to all.

        • Omega Z

          Not a Problem 🙂

  • Otto1923

    Why doesn’t mr Rossi just rig his reactors to explode if someone tries to tamper with them? I wonder if he has thought of this.

    • Kim

      I’m going to pretend I did not read that correctly.

      Respect
      Kim

    • Omega Z

      Otto

      Something of this nature was actually considered. Just not quite as drastic.

      Considered- Self destruct of the apparatus itself without harming anyone. Possibly burning itself out in runaway mode. Not Fool proof as one could merely disconnect the power avoiding this.

      Constant wireless monitoring for Data Collection & Tampering Alert. Again not fool proof. Power disconnect. At best you would arrive after your IP has already been Discovered/Stolen.

      Initially, The 1st products will be Wireless connected for Data Collection & Leonardo Personnel will also be constantly present 24/7.

    • fortyniner

      @Otto1923

      As we have zero evidence that Rossi’s reactors could be made to explode (other than by incorporating conventional explosives) and that any attempt to do this would be outrightly illegal, your post could be considered as scaremongering. Perhaps you could confirm that this was not your intention?

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        We could start a rumor that ecats emit a newly discovered form of radiation that renders anyone with the Genghis Khan gene impotent.

      • otto1923

        Yes I envision some sort of ancillary apparatus. Intellectual property is no joke.

        Many products have intrinsic prevention of misuse, as with firearms which must be held with the proper end toward the target, and guacamole which should not be kept in direct sunlight for extended periods. Misuse of rossis invention should have similar consequences.

        Pirated music should make computers melt as well dont you think?

  • Jim

    Looking for the lowest increment of collective effort that is feasible, effective and acceptable…

    How about a direct marketing style awareness campaign?

    Using the lenrconnect+google docs mechanism, create three things:

    1) A set of elevator pitches – why different categories of people should be interested in LENR – which would point to #2
    2) A LENR Primer (several good examples of this already), which would have a bibliography of more in depth material
    3) A contacts list – specific people in politics, academia, business and the media to send the elevator pitches to.

    Then anyone in the group could send the appropriate elevator pitch to any one on the list.

    Why do it as a group? Consensus could create quality, and combined effort could lead to the repeated, focused contacts.

    Suppose we brainstormed a list of 333 influential people. And that over time each of those people received six or seven of the elevator pitches.

    That’s the basic “tell them seven times” of direct marketing. And you had a three percent response rate, meaning they read the LENR primer (or at least asked their helpers to read it), which is typical for that type of campaign. That would net out to 10 influential people who had increased awareness of LENR.

    That doesn’t sound like much, but it’s do-able. And it’s scalable. The contacts list could keep growing, and the pool of “senders” could keep growing too.

    What would it be like if 100 influential people had increased awareness of LENR?

    • Dr Bob

      I would just like to throw out the idea that if we have equipment to travel around the world and showcase equipment we could reach very far very fast because then we could also network with the relevant people.

      Another idea I would like to throw out is that if we only had one product to sell, for example hardware or powder we could not only commercialize, we could steal the show from Mr Rossi. The Palladium People have been working the longest, they should have at least something that can be sold.

  • Rick Allen

    Anyone who wants to step up as a leader please do so.

  • Omega Z

    I think this would be a waste of time & money.

    Reason: If Rossi has what he says, a product will be available long before this could be fruitful. It would very likely take several years Just to sift thru the available information. If Rossi doesn’t have what he says, then this project would be for not. Either way.

    Don’t forget that Rossi is just 1 of a dozen people working hard on this. All very versed in this field. All looking for that final nail to nail LENR down. The Regulars following E-cat know who I’m talking about.

    I have no doubt that if Rossi put E-cat to market tomorrow that within in 6 months to a year, he will have at least 1, Possibly 2 competitors. Possibly a dozen within 2 years.

    As to the Delay, It could be a safety issue. R&D to work out the kinks.

    Rossi has stated several times that he has very good control of the technology. I consider this a matter of perspective. What is good control. We know that the November Ht-Cat burned out.

    What is the Failure Rate. 1 in a 100. 3/100. We don’t know. For speculation, say 3 in a 100 fails. In a Lab or shop setting, I would have to agree that Rossi has very good control of the technology from His perspective.

    As a Marketable product, this will never fly. What are the known & unknown safety issues should 1 fail? The Liabilities & Reliability of the product & repercussions.

    I’ve considered posting this before, but went blank on something of comparison. OK, Heating & cooling system manufacturers strive to keep defect rates at 7% or less. Preferably around 3%. But this is General defects from a bad resistor on a board to a cosmetic blemish on the unit from being dinged during transport. I’d assume something similar for E-cats.

    No, We have to consider Catastrophic Failure as in the possibilities of Property damage, bodily harm or death resulting. Heating systems have safeties to prevent this & it’s a tried & true technology. However I’m not aware of the actual numbers % wise allowed.

    Something more comparable would be Tires. Regulations allow between 5 & 10 per 100,000 units of Catastrophic Failures as in a major blowout while in (Normal Recommended Use). Added that last part as running under/over inflated tires or hitting road hazards don’t count.

    These are numbers that may be under consideration for consumer products more or less. Probably More. I don’t know if they would be lower or not for industrial purposes with Qualified personnel on hand, But Reliability would be High on the agenda. Business tends to be held Highly accountable for reliability in providing Energy to consumers. Note that several Power companies have been raked over the coals for not restoring Electricity Faster after Hurricane Sandy.

    I suspect the delay is due to this. R&D, safer, better, more reliable product. Not there Yet. And All Rossi’s competitors will have to jump through the same Hoops. But he who is Leads has to cut the Trail. Those who follow have it easier.

  • georgehants

    How about the premier scientific comics write an honest report on the Evidence and Research conclusions of Cold Fusion.
    Why are people trying to find ways to do academic sciences job for them.
    Could some clever scientists on page tell me why a premier journal should not publish the Facts of a new technology that could change science and the World forever.
    Thank you in advance for the many good answers that I shall receive.

  • georgehants

    Now is this called Evidence, then let’s not look at it, hide it quickly just like the Evidence for Cold Fusion etc.
    —-
    The Reference Frame
    RSS: a negative temperature trend in 16.67 years.
    http://motls.blogspot.co.uk/2013/08/rss-negative-temperature-trend-in-1667.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+LuboMotlsReferenceFrame+%28Lubos+Motl%27s+reference+frame%29

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Very Interesting!

    Jan.Gustavsson
    August 25th, 2013 at 7:18 PM
    Dear Dr Rossi: are you able to explain to us not expert what is and how works
    the “Particle of God”? I made a bet with friends that you are able to make simple what is difficult.

    JG

    Andrea Rossi
    August 25th, 2013 at 8:02 PM
    Jan.Gustavsson:
    He,he,he… nice bet. I have studied all I could of the Higgs Boson, and, as a matter of fact, it is very difficult to explain what it is and how it works without the rigorous language of mathematics; this said, I want to help you win your bet, even if I am sure my “vulgarization” will raise not few eyebrows.
    To explain what is the Higgs Boson and how it works we need a model easy to be understood.
    Let us start from an attempt of scientific definition, and then down to the model.
    The Higgs Boson is a scalar boson that breaking the symmetry makes the particles get mass ( or, better, “feel ” the mass).
    Now the model: imagine a biosphere, a closed glass sphere in which you have no gravity and nothing at all inside, but cats and butterflies ( no snakes, all gone to sell apples). In this situation of no-gravity and no hurdles inside the biosphere inside the glass sphere you can see from outside cats and butterflies move and fly without difficulty and with no much difference between their lines of movement: up, down, clockwise, counterclockwise , left, right, and so on: you can say that between them there is a sort of a symmetry, because they move symmetrically in the biosphere, due to the fact that they don’t meet any obstacle, nor pull from anywhere. Now imagine that after this calm ( and inconclusive) symmetrical situation, arrives the game- changer, which is the fact that inside the glass ball of the biosphere we put gravity and also put inside a big bunch of flowers. At this point, the symmetry is broken, because, while the butterflies continue to fly around, even if with less easiness, the cats fall down and move with difficulty among the flowers: in few words, they FEEL their mass.
    Now, consider that in the model the butterflies are the bosons, the cats are the fermions and the gravity combined with the flowers are the Higgs Boson.
    The Higgs Boson has spin zero ( is a scalar force): as a matter of fact it does not move, like the flowers, while the fermions and the bosons are vectorial forces because they have total orbital angular momentum ( orbital momentum + intrinsic spin), and also have an isospin, which in the lattice model is determined by their position along the z axis of the lattice. Without the Higgs Bosons, the particles would fly linearly without interact and the Universe would be very boring: a lot of waves at the speed of light going on straight for ever. The chaos created by the Higgs Boson has generated everything: atoms, molecules, everything. Probably for this reason it has been called the “Particle of God”. I hope the Higgs Boson also will make you win your bet.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • GreenWin

    Thanks Bernie, Admin and Dottore for this excellent recreation of the Higgs cosmos. From my interpretation, we can thank the butterflies for introducing chaos that has manifested matter. According to novel ist Stephen King, at some point the monarch (butterfly) will be crowned. 🙂

    On topic, I think we are far from stalled, rather we are now moving in a different sphere. LENR has challenged not just classical physics, but the geopolitical control of Earth. In the following article we see how one major control mechanism – the electrical energy grid, has been forced to relinquish some of that control.

    Elforsk-Levi has substantiated enough science (despite skeps) to deeply affect the U.S. & Canadian energy market. Edison Inst started the roll with it’s warning of relentless DER market capture. German PV/wind has stunned fossils enough to force them to leave Germany.

    While few utils have the foresight, Toronto Hydro is making an attempt to kludge together a DER grid. They seem to think of it like a server/node “octopus” network. WAY over-engineered IMO. Distributed Energy Resources via microgrids do not need any central power resource (a security plus.) Redundancy and UPS services are inherent to DER microgrids.

    You can read about Toronto’s brave new grid here: http://www.automationworld.com/electric-utility-distributes-control-move-grid-21st-century

    THE most interesting info from Toronto is the use of CompactRIO controllers. Hmmm, controllers made by LENR friendly National Instruments.

  • Rockyspoon

    I have the strong conviction that the public’s acceptance and/or understanding of LENR isn’t needed for acceptance–most people haven’t a clue how the electricity they flip on with a switch is generated, and don’t care.

    So all the LENR industrialists have to do is generate electricity cheaper than most, and take over their market share.

    It won’t be difficult–saving money is a big incentive nowadays, just like it has for centuries.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      You are correct. The only arena that matters is the marketplace.