Rossi: Extended E-Cat Test 'In Course' [Updated]

I had a couple of people ask here about the six-month-long Hot Cat test that was reportedly going to take place following the release of the Levi et al report in May. So I asked Andrea Rossi on the Journal of Nuclear Physics what the status of that test was, and this is his reply:

Andrea Rossi
September 4th, 2013 at 6:30 PM

Frank Acland:
As we said, a 6 months long validation test had to be made, and I repeated that validation of the E-Cat is in course. As always, I will not give any specific information regarding the validation test in course, with exception of the fact that this test will last more than 6 months. The results will be published after the test will have been completed, whatever the results, positive or negative.
I do not know where the publication will be made, because it does not depend on me. Also this long run test is being performed by an indipendent commettee, financed by institutions totally indipendent from us. Obviously the location in which the test is in course will be disclosed in the publication that will be made. I can only say that it is in the USA factory of a Customer. The E-Cats under test have been manufactured completely in the USA, in the factory of the US Manufacturer, indipendently from me: therefore also the manufacturing has been made by an indipendent- from- me party.
Warm Regards,

When he says ‘the test is in course’, it sounds like the test has already commenced, and if it is going to last more than six months we are apparently going to be looking at a 2014 publication of the report (possibly later if this is a years-long test!) Anyway, there’s plenty of time to sit and wonder about what it will contain. Perhaps the extended test will help determine how long a charge is good for. Rossi has said in the past that the projected six-month replacement of the reactor core (which contains the nickel powder, hydrogen and catalyst) is a conservative one, and that lifespan could possibly be extended.

It’s interesting that Rossi emphasizes here that everything involved is the test is independent of him — testing and manufacturing — and seems to be taking a good deal of pride in that fact. He makes it sound like now the whole E-Cat operation could move ahead without him. One of the criticisms of the previous test was that it took place in Rossi’s own facilities and that the unit was built by him which led critics to say that he could have rigged the test — with this test it will be harder to make such charges.


I followed up on the JONP with this question, and got a quick response from Rossi:

Are your commercial operations dependent upon the results of this testing? In other words, are you waiting for this test to conclude before you launch commercial products?

Andrea Rossi
September 5th, 2013 at 10:01 AM
Frank Acland:
You must put a distinction between the third party indipendent tests ( that are totally indipendent from our commercial strategy) and the tests related to our internal R&D. I can speak only for our internal R&D, about which,as I said, the uses and operation of the E-Cats remain in the development phase. We are utilizing a number of controls and testing a variety of uses, this is a very rigorous process, made by expert scientists. It is simply too soon to speculate on what the results of our work will be. I remain confident in our work and our team.
Warm Regards,

So it appears that this 6 month+ test is not connected with Rossi and co.’s product development and commercial strategy. It sounds like they have made the e-cats and given the testers leave to test them independently. Perhaps the publication of the test results will help with patent issues or marketing — there must be some upside for Rossi and co. for them to allow the testers access for so long.

  • Ecat

    I tolled you so guys. Levi mentioned that test will start in July and Rossi also stated in July, that test is “In course”.

  • John Maguire

    Very glad to see this. Will be looking forward to the results, and hopefully they can finalize a deal w/ a company to test out their mini-plant soon as well.

  • Charles Edward Frith (@charlesfrith)

    Basically it’s out of his control. The military industrial complex can’t allow free energy.

    • Kim

      Pretty Easy Stuff.

      It goes like this…

      Banks and Free Energy can not exist together.

      Like Oil and Water.

      Were at that critical point.


      • Arnd

        Why not? Banks will profit hugely from a change in energy infrastructure.
        And this energy will not be free, it will just be a lot cheaper. The military industrial complex had to deal with that scenario in the past already when oil was basically for free. Markets will adjust as they always do. After a period of turmoil everything will be settled again.

      • Omega Z

        Sorry Kim

        Have to disagree.

        This is a Bankers DREAM.
        If E-cats can be scaled to produce Electricity in conjunction of heat.
        Corporations will Borrow 10’s of Billions to build Facilities & Machinery & Inventory for manufacturing them.
        Corporations will Borrow Billions to pay for purchase of & Installation of them.

        Utilities will borrow Trillions for New power plants.
        Trillions is no exaggeration.
        There’s presently about 1000 New Power plants on order ranging from 3/4 of a billion dollars to 15 Billion each.
        My Guesstimate is somewhere between 3 to 5 trillion in value for these 1000 units. You haven’t seen Nothing Yet. What will demand be if E-cats come to market.

        That’s a Lot of Interest payments.

        Actually the Number of Power plants ordered wont very a whole lot. They will be restrained for the same reason their restrained now. Else the number would be higher then a 1000.

        The Restraint is the shortage of Materials, Engineers, & Skilled trades to do the actual building of them. There’s a waiting list. All these restraints have caused inflated prices as some projects have increased in cost by 300% to 400% in just the last couple years. Else the number would be much higher then 1000. Many others have been put on indefinite hold or cancelled as Financially unfeasible.

        As the Largest U.S. power producer said about a 2 turbine plant that had reached 15 billion in cost & projected 24 billion by completion said, It could never return it’s cost.
        This before a single spade of dirt was turned. They will retain the several hundred acres of land they purchased & reconsider the project in 20 years or so. Oh- This project started out at about 3 Billion.

        This doesn’t even take into consideration the public consumer. They to will likely finance any purchase & Installation when available.

        It would be a good time to be a Banker.

        • vvictory44

          That’s a good point Omega,

          However, when these devices can produce energy at such low costs and you can basically use them off the grid why would anybody else stay hooked up to that grid? Personally I would buy one or two 10kW units and stay off the grid and be as impended as possible. So, from a manufacturing point of view , yes there will be a lot of money to me made in producing and later maintenance of the units but not sure how willing all those energy companies will be to buy large units and then offer the same services for pennies?


          • winebuff

            Banksters are heavily involved in inflating energy prices. They drive these things more than energy cos. They are heavily invested in stocks of energy cos and activly trade on the futures market to inflate prices at the pump and on the stock exchange. Its a win win for them

          • Anthony


    • AstralProjectee

      What do you think military industrial complex is. It’s limited in what it can do. We are living is different times.

    • Sturmvogel

      Maybe humanity will have to wait another one discover the same technology and release it for public. Agree that energy and military industrial complexes have no interest to allow free and cheap energy for the world.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Getting manufacturing out of his personal hands is of course a completely necessary step before any kind of large-scale production can be considered. Some months ago he told that the first reactor made by others had worked. Now since July an endurance test of such reactor seems to be ongoing, validated by scientists. From the effort they get multiple demonstrations at once: E-cat made by others validated by scientists working for a long time, and they will also get to know if it might be possible to lengthen the service period from 6 months. It sounds an efficient and sensible approach, taking several irreversible steps and multiple flies with one swath.

    • lcd

      Yes and I would expect the academic community to leak news of the tests very quickly because very few scientists can keep a secret like this, when its not related to national security.

      • Omega Z


        Most people wont leak information because of legal & Financial repercussions. Getting caught is ever more risky.
        And if National Security Agencies are involved for some reason, No one wants to be a Snowden facing a 1000 years sentence if/when caught.

        But Ultimately, Who would want to risk being ostracized from the Inner Circle.
        I Mean, Who here wouldn’t Love to be on the Inside.

  • Magnus Andersson

    (I planned this for a long time now)
    What do you think of this page that I wrote:

    Now, my point is not that I am the best to tell how to make a good test.

    My point is that one should use wiki-technology, ( pages that can be editable by others (with text, images …))

    This way the critics can help improve the test before its executed. (instead of after).

    (Disclaimer: My wiki-software might not be the best but there are lots of others)

    • Jim

      I applaud your intent. I think there are ways to use collaboration tools for this purpose. My concern about openly editable wikis is that they can be trashed. I haven’t been able to figure out a way to do this using any available tool without some moderation. The best design approach that I’ve come up with is to 1) create a draft topic page 2) use discussion and comments to capture brainstorming ideas about that topic, and also to ‘vote’ on those ideas, and then 3)have a moderator move those ideas into the main page on that topic. Another alternative is to have a committee of editors who can each promote ‘proposed’ edits to the actual page, but that requires more organization to begin with. The other approach is allow people to edit the topic page directly, but limit access to ‘trusted’ users. But that limits input. So, no immediate miracles.

      • Omega Z

        I agree Jim

        In that Magnus page would be trashed almost/likely from the beginning.

      • Magnus Andersson

        Well there were some, shall we say “extreme modifying” for a while actually.

        Anyways, if I have to lock it from editing, then my message to the critics and others is still to use Google Site or any other sites with editable documents, to write down how to test the ECat. (Feel free to copy my material.)

  • Patronym

    Does he know that energy wars made dozen millions deaths ?
    100 000 syrians recently

    • Mike

      Syria has almost no oil. what’s going on in Syria has nothing to do with oil. This is geo politics between the USA, Russia, Iran, and Israel, primarily. But also, it’s the Sunni versus the Shia Arabs, and of course them versus the Persians. This is both a global and regional conflict for power. Granted, the only reasons Middle East nations have any power is because of Oil, but even if the ECat was perfect, and certified tomorrow, it will still take many, many years before it has a significant impact. The world runs on oil, and will for decades to come. A few months more of Rossi et all working won’t make a difference. I’m sorry, but that’s the hard calculus of politics.

      • KD

        You right.

        • Clive Stellings

          There would be an immediate impact on oil prices once any device based on LENR is officially acknowledged. The price of oil is based on future speculation which includes known and future reserves and several other factors such as local wars or conflicts. If there is a viable alternative to oil then the stock market will calculate this into the present cost. This would mean that present reserves are sufficient so it would remove some pricing pressure and lower the price. Personally I believe it would probably be significant as future oil reserves accounts for not an insignificant amount of the price.

          • sparks

            No, sorry to disagree, but I would expect a successful e-cat commercial launch to have absolutely no impact on the price of oil for years. Oil price is far more short-sighted than you suggest — that’s why it is so volatile to spiking whenever there is an incident or development that might impede shipping lanes for even a short time. Since essentially all of our global transportation fleet runs on oil-on-board of one form or another, the demand for oil will show no noticeable inflection if and when e-cat becomes available. All e-cat will do is displace natural gas, coal, and small amounts of heavy oil used to generate electricity. Only when electrically-powered vehicles become common will the full e-cat benefits be felt. And the EV uptake rate is extremely slow, relatively speaking. BTW, I personally drive a Chevy Volt, (which is a masterpiece of technology and torque, BTW), and would love to see EVs take off, but unfortunately it’s going to be a slow process regardless, as it takes a long time for the global transportation fleet to be rolled over.

          • Roger Bird

            It is quite alright to disagree. Just don’t be disagreeable. (:->)

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            There are other technologies in the works that could have a more immediate impact on oil prices. Envision electric cars with no batteries.

          • Roger Bird

            It would be much easier, Iggy, for us to envision if you were to include a link. (:->)

          • fortyniner

            50kW+ compact electrical power sources still look some way off – or is there some tech in particular we should be looking out for, such as new types of fuel cell perhaps?

          • Thinks4Self

            Short sighted indeed or every gulf storm, disagreement between factions in any mid-east country, etc,etc… wouldn’t effect the price of oil. I agree with you on the need for EVs to catch on, without them it will be decades before gasoline is replaced by LENR. ECATs also won’t replace jet fuel for several decades. Nor will they be a source material for plastics, industrial chemicals and medicines just to name a few other uses of oil beyond energy.

          • Dickyaesta

            I have to disagree with the EV’s catching on, unless there will be a non poluting energy source to charge them now we use carbon, nuclear, oil to generate electricity and transport it from afar and then charge our EV. It seems almost better to use gasoline made the most efficient in individual cars.

            It would be interesting to measure the price of that versus electricity charged from afar at poluting industries.

            But all that is now, if we have however cheap non poluting energy generated (eCat) in our garage and then flash charged batteries or as Iggy said to cars with no batteries 😉 , he probably meant with powerfull yet to see to the market condensators, then and only then you are talking EV’s

        • Patronym

          You mistake, the wars would stop automatically even if we use oil decades.
          And syria has gas and is obstacle to nabucco.

      • Robyn Wyrick

        You could be right that this conflict has nothing to do with oil, but some outlets are connecting different dots:

        Now, I don’t know if they’re right. But they’re not alone in their estimation.

        I am sure that nearly all the players have long term goals. It is certainly clear that short term goals are all messed up for everybody, particularly the civilian population.

        • Omega Z


          For others to consider also- Even some/most U.S Journalists get it wrong.
          It doesn’t involve Oil in that Syria is insignificant. This is already figured into the current price & it doesn’t even involve the proposed pipeline. Other options exist that would be far cheaper then a limited U.S. Strike.

          The Real Concern as far as Oil access & Price. If the Syria situation spills over & disrupts most or all the Middle East. Big Problem… The Lack of military response would be because of Oil. Reverse of what many think.

          Some U.S. Journalists have implied that it would have little or no effect on the U.S. It would have a greater effect on Europe & Asia as this is where most of the M.E. Oil goes to. They would be wrong.

          They are right in only 1 aspect. In Dire circumstances, The U.S. supply is secure as it’s unlikely to be cut off. It’s local- U.S., Canada, Mexico, Etc. In Fact I think the Only reason the U.S. purchases any Oil from Africa/Middle East is the don’t put all your eggs in 1 basket. Diversity of supply. Of which the U.S. purchases between 1/2 & 2 million barrels a day from them. (Numbers Very a Lot) Anyway, far more then that amount is exported world wide from our close friends & neighbors. Secure.

          That said, Outside of Dire National Security Issues, Oil is an International Commodity. Prices are based accordingly just as food & many other natural resources.

          Basically, The U.S. is fairly Isolated from oil being cut off as in the 70’s, but NOT Price increases. It effects all pretty much Equally. Many Journalists miss this point.

          • Dickyaesta

            Like almost always heavy handed American policies and policy-decisions lead up to chaos!

            If the article is right and I don’t doubt they planned it to have a domino effect for the whole middle east a genial plan.

            But then as always not figured in the reactions of the people in these regions, who on the one hand like to enjoy the same freedom as the west, on the other hand big part of those countries still live in the middle ages with particular laws we in the west might laugh about, but they are reality for those people and that is in my opinion where it goes wrong in most of American Policy of the last two decades and more, all is decided in airconditioned war rooms and has nothing to do with the reality on the ground of hot, dust and ages of lies by their so called leaders. These people are weary of all and have not the perception of us living in the west to see through the lies of politicians.

            But yes Syria is important on the way to Teheran(Iran) and in the bigger picture in having control of oil, no way about it. But only don’t let your CIA alone decide the outcome, because you are in for disaster.

            Advice to the CIA not listen to your (outside) advisers only. Get out of your damn offices and cocktail parties in DC and walk on the ground in these countries, not planning, not thinking, just breathing and listening and then go back and plan something, if you have to. You might avoid a disaster or two, like that now in Syria!

            Everytime it seems that nobody realises there are in the middle east a division between sunni and shia muslims they hate each other(the same: hot, dust and lies)and they hate Israel more, but they cannot touch it, so what do they do: they fight each other and that will go on for ages, if the paradigm doesn’t change or we run out of oil or don’t need it anymore, if you really want peace, the only way is to support heavily altenatives to oil and the best option in that is LENR or equivalent.

            Supporting one group or the other doesn’t help it doesn’t change anything, because the majority of the people in the middle east are wired differently than us, understand me well, no better or worse than us only different.

            You can go in heavy handed like the British before world war I or the CIA in Iraq, Afghanistan and now Syria or Israel against the rest, but it won’t change anything in a livetime!

            That is not the way, yes education will help but takes a long time In the short time it is better to leave the peoples of these countries alone, helping on the side where it is possible, but do not make the mistake of “we can change world..”, by giving arms to one or the other, it might sound interesting on cocktail parties in DC, but we are talking of real people, who need real help. However getting chemical arms away from crooks is a good idea, but no more!

      • fortyniner

        Syria has little oil, but the fabricated crisis is still about oil, or more precisely, about the ‘petro dollar’. This video explains why Syria and Iran are in America’s sights with great clarity:

        Another factor is Saudi/Quatar interests. Iran wants a pipeline across Syria to export gas to Europe, and their ally Assad would go with this. The Saudis also want a pipeline for the same reason, but Assad would block this. Therefore US beligerance would favour the Saudis at the expense of Iran.

        • fortyniner

          Correction: Saudi/Qatari

          • Roger Bird

            GreenWin on September 7, 2013 at 12:28 am Again, did you bump your head? Are you OK? You are making perfect sense.

        • Roger Bird

          Why is every crisis fabricated? This tendency is fabricated to cause the reader to hate the USA, because the fabricator hates the USA.

          • fortyniner

            Not every crisis is fabricated – but this one is. It was decided long before the ‘red line’ incident (fabricated) that Syria was next on the list, with Iran to follow. If you have a few minutes, please watch the YouTube video at the link I posted above for why/how.

  • Gerrit

    We know that Rossi was telling the truth when he spoke about the independent test that was completed in May this year.

    We know from other sources that a 6 months test is planned.

    It all seems perfectly legit what Rossi says here.

    We’ll have to wait at least for another 6 months. In the mean time we won’t hear much from the ecat, so it will be a long uneventful time.

    • Roger Bird

      I find the test to be completely plausible, like you said.

    • Owen

      Let’s hope stories keep rolling in from other sources.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Rossi said some time ago that in September he will publish the math notes that Focardi made for him. At least some material to look it, if not E-cat news.

    • Boris Ivanoff

      “We know that Rossi was telling the truth when he spoke about the independent test that was completed in May this year. We know from other sources that a 6 months test is planned. It all seems perfectly legit what Rossi says here.”

      Well, yes. But we also know that Rossi sold several megawatt heat-generating plants and at least one to a civilian customer who is willing to show it to the public. Perhaps Frank could be so kind as to ask Rossi when to expect such a showing?

  • enduser

    The E-Cats could be sold cheaply and the re-charge could use the printer ink model, E-Cat for $100, and a re-charge for $1000.

    • Omega Z

      Reverse that to envision Rossi’s path.

    • Roger Bird

      Given that I hate the printer companies for doing this, I hate their guts with every fiber of my being, I doubt that this is a great strategy. And anyway, it would be much easier to buy a recharge on Ebay for $10 than it would to buy a recharge for a printer.

      • BroKeeper

        Agreed. But then again, let’s see…. which one do I require?
        EC – 2505NI58 glows Red $ 25.99
        EC – 3505NI60 glows Yellow $ 37.99
        EC – 4505NI61 glows Green $ 60.99
        EC – 5505NI62 glows Blue $ 42.99
        EZ – 7405NI99 special Christmas package $ 145.99

        • Barry

          Heh heh

  • lcd

    I have a question for users that will likely be posed once all thisbecomes mainstream.

    Would you install a home ecat kit without the approval of the nuclear regulatory commission If they told you not to do it because it could be dangerous?

    • Roger Bird

      Yes. In a heart beat. If LENR were dangerous, all sorts of people would be FUBAR by now, including Rossi, McKubre, Defkalion dudes, etc. etc. etc.

    • NT

      You bet, given a reasonable price for the device.

    • John Walker


    • Matt S

      Would we be allowed to? I think this is the more important question, Rossi and or partner will not be selling anything without any approval from the relevant statutory bodies.

    • Boris Ivanoff

      In consideration of my family’s safety and that of the neighbors, I’d wait a year before installing an un-approved fusion reactor in my home. It seems only prudent. If it worked OK for others for a year, then I think the risk would be low and reasonable. Remember the old (USA) saying: “Pioneers get arrows”.

      • Roger Bird

        I never heard that old USA saying, but it may be true. But given that Rossi pours over E-cats 16 hours a day, as do others, and is an old man (younger than me) whose healing powers are less than an 18 year old’s, and there seems to be nothing wrong with him that a few weeks of 9 hours of sleep every night would help, I can’t see the E-Cat as being a threat to anyone except a utility company meter reader.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        “Pioneers get arrows”

        Sometimes the laggards get to dig their own graves. I have a friend whose Jewish parents escaped Nazi occupied Russia. His cousins were forced to dig their own graves, then shot at graveside.

    • Jimr

      I don’t believe we need be concerned with the nuclear reg. comm. More likely the local and state legislators will attempt to delay or halt progress through regulations etc, and can be influenced by the gas, oil and electric companies with their contributions or lack of contributions to officials.

      • Anthony

        There was a comment in the UK’s Daily Express yesterday that, if the automobile were just invented today thus enabling people to travel freely and independently, then it would probably be suppressed.

        This seems to be the big problem with CF, if we all go off grid it will remove control from big biz and govts and I quite agree that many big oil etc. will do all they can to suppress it.

        We probably thus have to hope that China, India etc. will reverse engineer, start making them cheaply and flood the market regardless.

        Whilst big pharma is indeed trying to control the market and put a ban on natural remedies etc., there are signs that organised public opinion via such things as 38 Degrees can have an effect on big biz. And in the UK the other day a whole bunch of protesters actually managed to stop, rightly or wrongly, a fracking operation dead in its tracks, and there’s a huge groundswell of anti windfarm opinion growing.

        • Roger Bird

          Energy is just one of the many networks that powerful people can control.

          Powerful people are not working together. Their own motivation is profit, and they will happily undermine each other just as readily as they will undermine you and me if it gets in the way of their making a profit.

          There will certainly be rich people (like Hunt Utilities Group) who will see a way to make a profit with LENR.

          The idea that rich people are trying to control us is similar to the idea that germs are trying to kill us. Germs only want to survive and thrive, and killing us is an unfortunate consequence of an erroneous stategy. Millions of germs thrive by HELPING people and animals. Many rich people understand this and WANT us average folks to thrive. I cannot buy their goods and services if I am impoverished.

          • Anthony

            Well, maybe you’re right Roger, but the end result is the same – big oil, big elec, etc will all suffer if CF gets going, so they’ll do their best to suppress it and won’t care if we’re too impoverished to buy other companies’ products.

    • BroKeeper

      Yes, I always hoped for a glowing personality.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Yes, but I would have to temper that decision with the prospect of other devices that were close to market. Suppose your heard hoofbeats of another device that was touted to produce electricity with no steam, no moving parts, and little heat.

      • winebuff

        Has elforsk confirmed the test is ongoing? It would be nice if we could get confirmation from them.

        • Yes, it would be realy nice if Frank could get some answers directly from them 🙂

    • E_man

      YES of course. Anything better nothing !

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander


      That’s because I know it’s not a dangerous device, even though it is based on a nuclear reaction.

    • winebuff


    • lcd

      All good opinions.

    • fortyniner

      Why would the Nuclear Regulatory Commission be involved if LENR produces only negigible amounts of radiation comparable to CRTs etc.? Unless of course CF is falsely categorised as ‘nuclear’ in order to ensure monopoly control.

  • Matt S

    This is very good news, it does take the spotlight off of Rossi for a while again whilst we await the outcome of the new testing. Unless we are scheduled with anything else that might happen in the meantime, i.e. the announcement of the Swedish industrial e-cat installation or the announcement of the US partner?

  • Boris Ivanoff

    Sorry but this is all very confusing. Is the next event in this saga going to be extended testing in the US? Extended testing in Sweden? Free power to a factory from a Swedish customer of Rossi’s?

    And who are all the unnamed companies and people? I sure wish Rossi would name just one customer where a working ecat can be seen in action.

  • Dan

    My guess is that if this actually finds its way into the mainstream consciousness, you will see an enormous amount of FUD from big oil and the power industry. The big boys are almost certainly aware of it now and are working feverishly to lay the groundwork to have the relevant regulatory agencies fail E-Cat for whatever reasons they can concoct. E-Cat will get it’s toe hold in places where big oil and power have no interests or control. China, for example, would benefit greatly from this technology. I would bet money that we won’t see any sort of LENR device licensed here for at least ten to twenty years.

    • fortyniner

      Agreed. The obvious control path is to acquire all relevant companies and patents, ensure that (as Dan suggests) no safety certification for general use is possible, then in due course have legislation enacted that defines LENR as a ‘nuclear’ process subject to the same statutory controls that apply to nuclear fission. An ‘incident’ would help this process enermously, but MSM disinformation could achieve exactly the same public ‘demand’ for legislation to keep the world safe from this new ‘danger’.

      The tech can then be freely used by the military and the energy cartels with no pesky competition from the oiks, existing nuclear/fossil investments are protected, and a nice big stick is available to crush anyone who attempts to break the resulting monopoly. The Chinese and Russian states would probably happily follow a similar strategy for almost identical reasons.

      • Roger Bird

        “ensure that (as Dan suggests) no safety certification for general use is possible” That sounds so similar to how the pharmaceutical companies crush competition from herbalism, homeopathy, and all other competition. They raise the definition of proof so high that only they can afford to reach it. They make herbs show safety in the same way and as much as pharmaceutical drugs, which is absurd. They make all tradition use mean nothing. But then, of course, they are just being “scientific”.

        • fortyniner

          Exactly. ‘Big pharma’ control of the US FDA and the EU food agencies is a classic example of regulatory capture, resulting in active suppression of competing alternatives, just as in the energy field.

          In Europe, many (if not most) natural remedies are already technically illegal due to a pharma-inspired ‘directive’ issued by the the EC in 2011 (the ‘Food Supplements Directive’), because few manufacturers could find the average £20,000 required to ‘certify’ a natural ingredient. As many countries including the UK are not yet enforcing this directive, the EC is now getting ready to apply more pressure, including forced prosecutions of supplement sellers.

          • Roger Bird

            Very extemely bold. This kind of boldness could wake people up. In other words, the seeds of their destruction are contained in their own actions.

          • fortyniner

            I hope so, but UK (and Europe) sheeple are probably even more sheeplike than US sheeple. A bit of bleating is all that can be expected, by and large.

  • artefact


    “Good Report on Differential Test in the US”

    “This is the most promising result I have yet written about. I put it together into a google doc that is embedded here. As usual, please let us know if I missed anything.”

    • Roger Bird

      So, did MFMP get a COP greater than 1 or not?

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        I find it quite difficult to follow if their previous results have any excess heat. Apparently they think they have seen some excess, but every time that happens, there are a zillion reasons why the excess could be something else. It just goes to show how difficult this field is. They are in the dark trying to figure out all the unknown but important parameters of a theoretically unknown effect.

        Seems like with this test they believe they start to see some real excess heat; dont know about the COP though. Hopefully the direction they are heading in is the right one and they will be able to trigger the effect with increasing confidence.

        I have immense respect for MFMP’s efforts (guy’s like Ecco, Edwin Pell and Ron B specifically included) and have supported them in the past and probably will do again in the future. These guys are real scientists.

  • HHiram

    From Rossi’s email it isn’t clear to me whether he is talking about a test of the regular E-Cat or the Hot-Cat. Frank, can we get clarification from him?

  • Boris Ivanoff

    Frank, could you be kind enough to ask Rossi when we can expect him to reveal the name and location of a customer who has a working megawatt plant and who can accept a limited number of qualified visitors? If he can’t say, please ask why not. It seems that this has been promised for some time now. Thanks.

    • I’ve asked in the past — and AR has said he can’t release this info because of agreements he has made with the partner.

      • Boris Ivanoff

        Thank you for trying. By partner, did you mean the business partner or the customer? Or are they the same outfit?

        Does it seem a bit strange to you? After all, he’s been writing about this and promising it for quite a while.

        • I don’t see it as being so strange really, given that as soon as the partner is revealed they will probably have press, bloggers, interested members of the public, competitors, etc. inundating them with attention — maybe showing up at their premises, filming them, asking their employees questions, and so on.

          I can see that there’s an attraction to working in peace

  • Fibb

    Rossi says the “independentž testing is being done in the usa by expert scientists…… i doubt it’s the same crew as before. those guys wouldn’t move to the usa. lol

  • This is very good.

    It seems like Rossi has given the controll of the low temperature” E-Cats to his “partner”, which now is commercializing this technology. One step of this commercializing process seems to be a undoubtable test to convince interested but sceptical customers (the 6 month test), which is currently in course supported by Elforsk.

    Now Rossi is only busy with the R&D of the “high temperature” E-Cats, like the Tiger and Hot-Cat.
    So it seems Rossi is developing next generation E-Cats, while his partner is producing and commercializing the stable and “mature” technology.

    • Jimr

      Where are you finding this information on which ecats.,cold/hot are being tested and used . I have seen no Rossi written documents that state which are used for various programs.

      • I’m following the Rossi story since his announcement in january 2011.

        And he said more than one times that his partner now is fully independently from him manufacturing their own low temp E-Cats. They know (bought, licensed or what ever) the secrets and have learned the know-how to use it.

        And Rossi is doing research on his Hot-Cat reactors, which improves the effect used in the low-temp E-Cats.

        This is only what I read and conclude out of Rossis statements the last months and years.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          I think you are correct. This is indeed what Rossi said. His partner is now able to manufacture the low temp e-cats and Rossi himself is in charge of the hot, mouse and tiger kittens.

          It also seems to indicate that the next big developments like products to market should not be expected before the end of the extended test, after which it should take some time to review the results and possibly make improvements to the low temp ecat. Then finally the low temp ecat can go to market, so I estimate earliest begin 2015, maybe later.

          We may be practicing patience for some time yet…

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            A retired engineer that I greatly respect predicts that the GeNiE reactor will produce electric power at a cost competitive with LENR. Since the GeNiE apparently has the blessings of the US Patent Office, influential present and past govt scientists, and Babcock & Wilcox, then Rossi may be in for some formidable competition. The GeNiE also fits nicely with the interests of the big utilities.

          • fortyniner

            “The GeNiE also fits nicely with the interests of the big utilities.” You would think so wouldn’t you. However there are no signs that any prototypes are to be built.

            The patent you refer to is now in the hands of the fission industry, and there is no guarantee (or even indication) that they intend to do anything other than sit on it. Please see GreenWin’s comment at:


          • Iggy Dalrymple

            So you think they would let the GeNiE wither on the vine, while they’re threatened by LENR, solar, wind, and possibly even worse competitors?

            Remember, we only heard about the GeNiE a few months ago. They don’t even have a full scale prototype yet.

          • fortyniner

            “we only heard about the GeNiE a few months ago”

            Not entirely true – I and others have been posting occasional comments on it since 2011, although in a quick search, the earliest comments I could find were from April 2012.



            (search on ‘GEC’ or ‘global energy corporation’)

          • AlainCo

            I’ve gathered few info in that subforum

            look also in the US military research, where came the teams (ex-spawar).
            use the tags to find all post on that company.

          • fortyniner

            Thanks, Alain – a useful central point of reference for GEC updates. The link has been added to my bookmarks.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            OK, I must have forgotten. I’ve been a long follower of your posts.

          • fortyniner

            Many of my posts are rather easy to forget!

        • Jimr

          I have also been following since Jan. 2011, I just do not remember seeing anything that the partner is involved in low temp cats (3.5 kw) as opposed to hot cats (10kw). I would hope his partner is working on larger models above the 10kw models.

          • I think Rossi has said the partner will be manufacturing both high and low temperature E-Cats, but that so far only the low temperature 1 MW plants have been certified for safety.

        • guga

          I also remembered something like this.

          But on the other hand, Rossi wrote:

          Silvio Caggia
          June 1st, 2013 at 5:32 AM

          You say your Partner is preparing automated lines for mass production…
          But mass production of what modules? Warm e-cat? E-cat HT? E-cat HT2? E-tiger? Onion-cat? Else?

          Andrea Rossi
          June 1st, 2013 at 5:49 AM

          E-Cat low temperature
          Hot Cats
          Both as modules of 1 MW plants.

          • fortyniner

            Interesting snippet. It’s possible that two different types of ‘1MW’ plant might be manufactured for different purposes (e.g., space heating and boiler firing) but this would not make much sense as suitably modified versions of the HT version could perform both types of job (unless of course it is purely a certification issue).

            Taking the statement at face value, it seems more likely that a hybrid version – most probably using LT units to initiate HT ones (mouse/cat) – is the current development pathway.

          • Or it just means that his partner WILL also produce the Hot-Cat, AFTER Rossi finished the R&D on it, and the Hot-Cat reaction control is classified as stable and secure.

            But for now they only produce low-temp E-Cats for 1MW Container plants. Like Rossi is allways saying: The Hot-Cat is still in Prototype R&D phase.
            The low temp E-Cat instead is ready for (industrial usage) market.

    • KD

      Rossi also told that with the 1 MW Low Temperature E-Cat also were shipped two small Hot E-Cats for testing by his US Partner.

      Also with one of his statements he said, that the Partner will continue the R&D on all kinds of E-Cats and preparing for mass production.

  • WaltC

    Good questions– thanks for posting them & sharing the results.

    Maybe this has been discussed before (I’d appreciate a pointer if it has), but the 6+ mo. test brings to mind the question:
    What happens if some customer doesn’t recharge on the conservative, 6 month intervals? What if they wait a year, 2 years, …? Presumably nothing bad, maybe it predictably stops working altogether, but I have the impression from earlier Q&A that they haven’t done a lot of testing in that direction. It’s a non-issue in the industrial setting, but it seems like a necessary sort of “lots of data points”, “long term testing” they’d need before reaching everyone’s homes.

  • LilyLover

    With infinite energy, cheap robots can produce almost everything. Abundance based economy is opposite and non-conducive to scarcity based economy. Scarcity leads t desperation leads to immorality leads to rent seeking leads to interest leads to dog-eat-dog World. Abundance leads to exploitation minimization. Therefore money-as-debt currency diluters – the bankers cannot thrive in abundance based economy. To simplify, germs cannot thrive in a sanitary atmosphere.

    • Kim

      Glad to see at least another human being understands
      that Free Energy and Bankers don’t mix.

      Not only can they not thrive, they will become dinosaurs.

      Oh, yes in the beginning they will be happy because there
      will be money to be made, but as this thing becomes wide
      spread distributed. Good bye and Good Luck!

      Bankers need the illusion of scarcity.

      Its only common sense


    • Cliff

      Cheap robots? Have you ever tried to program or build a robot? Build something like that before you pontificate. Issac Asimov wrote about robots in the 40’s without any idea about how hard it is to make useful robots. Maybe you’re just talking science fiction?

      Regardless, your lack of understanding of economics is staggering. You seem to get your ideas off of bumper stickers, rather than sound economic theory.

      • Barry

        Cheap robots are already in place cliff. It’s you who is stuck thinking of the 1940s model. Atm machines, warehouse organizers, car makers, 3d printers, etc.

        • Rockyspoon

          Define “cheap”, Barry.

          One man’s cheap is another man’t expensive.

      • fortyniner

        A tipping point has to come when not only do ‘robots’ do the larger part of physical work in mines, refineries, transport and factories, but they also build more robots with minimal human supervision. If cheap energy is thrown into the mix, this point could arrive unexpectedly quickly.

      • LilyLover

        Built & programmed a fair share. Easy! Things that are easy for some are too difficult for others. If there is someone who understands economics better than Adam Smith, Milton Friedman, Bill Still, Ben Bernanke put together, that’s me.
        & Yes, I’m not ashamed of the truth. & I don’t care if it hurts your ego.

        For starters educate yourself…

        You are welcome.

        • Barry

          Great vids, Thanks LL.

  • Robyn Wyrick

    Here is why I love this story, and Rossi in particular:

    The 3rd Party Test proved beyond a shadow of doubt that the only two possibilities to explain what was found is: fraud or authenticity. Delusion is off the table.

    The current move by Rossi simply doesn’t appear to support the case for fraud. There is no more showmanship. No more big announcements. Hardly a whisper of dates.

    No, Rossi is digging in, and has no more to say. So either he has completed the scam, and is finding somewhere to hide his winnings, or – more and more likely with each passing week – the E-Cat is real.

    The real question for me is, when it comes out in the public, what will it do to the energy market? What will it do to existing infrastructure?

    That is the part I don’t feel very clear on.

    • GreenWin

      Robyn, the energy market is in for a significant reshaping. Infrastructure will change, for the better environmentally, safety/health issues, and security. The major change is elimination of need to transmit energy great distances. And an orderly decommissioning of centralized power plants as they’re replaced by district, community, and residential microgrid connected DERs.

      As for the financial piece, here is a link to the story of Rex Buggy Works founded 1898 in Indiana. It managed the transition to automobile parts, refrigeration, and later electronics as a unit of Philco, which then became a unit of Ford Motors.

      Utilities will need to transition to microgrids and Distributed Energy Resources or die. As will car and autoparts makers as electric vehicles replace internal combustion engines. It will not happen overnight – rather a generation or two. All good.

    • LENRToday

      I agree with the conclusion that delusion is no longer an option. As you say, this leaves us with: fraud or authenticity.

      I also hold that we have past the time when anyone can realistically believe in the fraud hypothesis. Here’s why:

      Proposing that Rossi is a master showman who has managed to pull off an incredibly elaborate fraud for the past 3+ years, how can we explain the other 9 or so companies (Defkalion, Brillouin, Nichenergy, Lenuco etc…) who also now claim to have working LENR systems? Are we to believe all of these various groups are trying to pull the EXACT same scam? All of these players make pretty much exactly the same claims (Ni + H or Pd + D -> heat energy). So, are they running their scams independently or in collusion? Imagine how fragile and unwieldy such a scam would be – even a single (anonymous) whistleblower and the whole thing (including Rossi) would fall down!

      Finally, how would a LENR-skeptic incorporate the work by George Miley (and academic co-workers) into this scam hypothesis?

      Those guys claim significant energy output from a Rossi-type NiH device they are building within a lab at Univ. Illinois. These scientists have NO motivation to pull any scam. If caught, their careers would be toast. I consider this to be very close to bullet-proof 3rd party verification of the ‘Rossi effect’.

      No, I am now of the conclusion that LENR is real and Rossi has a working device. The world is about to change.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Generally, especially initially, LENR will create product deflation and disruptive unemployment. All goods or services which include a lot of energy to produce, will cost a lot less, i.e. Chemicals, Aluminum, desalination of water. All goods and services which include a small percentage of energy will cost a little less, i.e. Software, legal advice, pharmaceuticals. Demand will increase for all of the above products and services, employment will increase in those industries. Will employment increase enough to overcome direct energy job loss and productivity gains from cheap energy? Probably not. Above all, we need active, intelligent governments and Central banks to help with the huge employment disruption ahead of us. If not we could see “Arab Springs” all over the World.

      • AlainCo

        You make some mistake, and to see what will hapen just see backward when there was such a cheap energy and productivity increase. in the 60s.

        First increase of productivity will increase wages, not deflate prices (deflation is typical to current depression). It will be good inflation linked to real growth (growth is in useful service, not in money).

        Part of the workers working in the dead industry will move to the new, but less (otherwise it would not be cheaper/more productive).

        the people whoe salaries will grow, will consume more and give jobs to the others..

        when people will be satisfied, in material goods and in service (is ther a limit?) they will take vacation , work less every day, and let other works.

        both happened during the 60s.

        what will be the new works ? less factory works, but more services. maybe some useless parasitic work like accountant to manage complicated laws, or lawyers… but also some tourist service, some sport training, actor training, show business…

        the former oil platform worker will became a skydiver monitor, a tourist guide, a leisure sailing monitor…

        that is more realistic and validated by history that the usual doom prediction based on our current western depression, where rich elite battle to lose less than the poor classes, and exploit the huge growth of BRICS countries, were people know that you doom prediction are false.

        the only huge probmem is competence. you need to retraine the old workers to new industry. and probably new industry is not industry but service to people.

        I see a problem today in France because people are not educated to serve people, but to do an industrial or bureaucratic work. Individualism and huge ego are a problem, especially for less educated people who did not learn well the rule of diplomacy and respect of the client. Executives know better submission and role playing.

        if you want to learn how growth change a society read:

        a great book.

  • Roger Bird

    The energy network, called the grid, is only one of many networks which make our prosperous lives possible. Another network that is very obvious is the food network. And the idea that people will all stop using this network and start growing their own food is absurd. The energy that we get from the grid is only one small component of all of the energy, work, time, initiative, and focus required to make the food network work. Very few people currently grow their own food. I would guess that perhaps only 1% of people grow their own food. So if we multiply that by 10, 10% just isn’t very much. So our dependence upon the food network will only be slightly impacted. I will probably try to grow some greens and amaranth, but it certainly won’t mean that I will become independent of the food network.

    Then there is the doctor network. I can’t see that LENR will have much of an impact on that. The fire/rescue network, no impact. The law enforcement network, none. The governmental network that makes most of these networks possible, perhaps a negative impact. Our dependence upon the road network will if anything increase.

    Yes, everything will become cheaper. We will all become more prosperous. But life becoming gloriously better because we will become independent of the energy network is a fantasy. Aside from all of subjective things that will keep on making our lives much less than what they could be, there is also the competitive factor. When I was young, next to no women worked outside of the home. If we double the percent of workers, shouldn’t our prosperity double? But it didn’t In fact, it seems to me that it is exactly the same. Why didn’t improve. Because of competition.

    And blaming all of those meanie heads who are supposed to be the powers that be, if we took all of their money and divided it evenly between all of the rest of us, it wouldn’t go very far.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Some people, however, like spooky bedtime stories, of evil banksters and PTBs. The true villains are the politicians and their clueless constituents.

    • fortyniner

      I would agree with most of the above except the last paragraph. In fact, the top 1% of US citizens own about 35% of the total wealth of the country, and the top 10% own 70% or more of it.

      Therefore if all the money of the top 1% were to be taken and distributed evenly, everyone else would be approximately 50% more wealthy, and if all the money of the top 10% were to be taken and distributed evenly, everyone else in America would be more than twice as wealthy.

      I don’t really understand why anyone anyone not in the top 10% would try to defend such an extreme inbalance.

      • Anonymous

        Maybe because most of those peoples not in the top 10% wish to enter it (or even better, to reach the final 1%)

      • georgehants

        Morning Peter
        Well, somebody that rather than keep going round in circles and getting nowhere is actually trying to find an answer to the horrors and inequality of capitalism.
        I am sure that any of us clever people could add to this model to improve it, rather than just sitting back and shouting, impossible, can’t be done etc. etc. just like our scientific friends with Cold Fusion.
        Make everything ‘Free’: A Voluntegalitarian System (utopia),

        • fortyniner

          Morning George.

          I think that most American wealth is tied to the US (petro) dollar. If at some point the dollar stops being the currency used to buy oil, the system will become ‘self correcting’ in that much of the wealth will disappear and the US will no longer be able to fund imperial wars.

          Unfortunately the consequences for the average US citizen (and much of Europe) would/will be rather drastic. The resultant turmoil would probably bring down the wealth structure of most of the Western world with it, although I’m sure that the top few percent would survive comfortably in all areas and retain much of their power and some of their wealth.

          Widespread adoption of LENR would allow the transition process to take place over a decade or so, rather than overnight, but if (as I suspect will happen) it is suppressed for some time, then the PTB are shooting themselves in the foot – or possibly through the head.

          • georgehants

            Sounds a possible outcome but based on the present situation it is clear that the system can and should be improved.
            Most everybody see’s the faults, but suggest changing it for peoples benefit and welfare, imagine a World without bills and mortgages, the mental health consequences are enormous, then everybody goes silent.
            Do you agree that the rich and powerful must be removed and replaced by people who can earn some fair riches by ability and endevour for society not by who they know or inheritance.
            Leaders with consideration, ability and care voted for by the people and not candidates put forward by the “party”.
            If we the people do not stop protecting this unfair system and workout a replacement then the suffering will continue to keep these few manipulators in their unearned positions.
            Take note, this is coming from somebody that can only be described as rich in this society, I do not speak from sour-grapes etc. but from a simple observation that a fair working-class man deserves a good and fair dept-free life in exchange for his years of work that are far more important to society than most of us.
            Wonderful day

          • fortyniner

            I’m not sure if it was a rhetorical question George, but yes, I do agree that nothing can or will improve until the current money elite is removed in one way or another.

            Unfortunately all the power other than sheer numbers is on their side. IMHO only a major upheaval (which they currently seem intent on generating themselves) stands any chance of shaking off these parasites and breaking up the existing power structure. (Although it is possible that just such a crash is actually being deliberately engineered in order to end US hegemony and to centralise global power with the international banksters – the ‘New World Order’, novus ordo seclorum.)

            CF in the public domain would also cause much upheaval. but would also result in the major creation of new wealth, principally in the hands of manufacturers and workers, hopefully without the massive downside of another world economic crash. This is why it will in all probability be prevented.

          • georgehants

            Peter, you said—
            “I’m not sure if it was a rhetorical question George”
            Yes it was but am glad you answered.
            Good to have somebody that can even pickup such a situation these days.
            Rhetorical, but hoping for another reply.
            Do you agree that until society gets the basic working class position worked out, where the people who we genuinely cannot do without are first guaranteed a fair worry free existence of the least possible working hours etc. then we can not move on to worry about riches for those that can only survive because of the efforts of the above.
            The rest of society can only be designed and built upon the work of those actually doing the work.

          • GreenWin

            My two pence gents: let’s not forget that high taxes are considered “confiscatory” to many independent productive people. It was the rather unremarkable “tea tax” that sparked the American Revolution. I do not disagree with both your comments but muse upon how to avoid dependency; much as a person becomes chemically dependent do we not enable fiscal dependency by expanding government via white and blue collar welfare??

            I am greatly annoyed by white collar welfare such as hot fusion projects, but find it equally annoying to expect fair innovation and success to pay for all welfare.

            This particular simulation has yet to acknowledge its failure to accurately reflect in a positive manner the actions of its principles. Until such time as the overseers check their ethics and algorithms – little progress can be made.

          • Roger Bird

            GreenWin on September 7, 2013 at 12:23 am. I don’t understand. You seem to be making perfect sense. Did I misunderstand your comment?

          • GreenWin

            No. You understand well.

          • fortyniner

            Massively OT, so I won’t be saying more on the subject:-

            I suppose it’s about rewarding value contributed, but who is to decide what is valuable to society? Income distortions can’t be laid solely at the feet of parasitic individuals who actually suck value out of the system to no-one’s benefit but their own. As long as ‘someone’ decides that a pop singer or footballer should be paid hundreds or even thousands of times what a nurse or teacher is paid, or a successful slum landlord can make more than a hundred doctors, huge inequalities of reward will continue.

            I am not a fan of state controls but I honestly can’t think of any system other than income taxation at a % rate that is proportional to income (perhaps rising to say 95% at some arbitrary figure) that could control such inequalities.

            I am aware of the arguments (mostly put by the wealthy) that high taxation would ‘drive talent elsewhere’ or ‘discourage enterprise’ but I am not so sure that something like that would be the end of the world as we know it. But then my tax rate would be fairly modest under such a system, so perhaps that’s just sour grapes!

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            High taxation only chases off the producers. High taxation empowers politicians, lawyers, bureaucrats, and accountants.

            “We don’t pay taxes. Only the little people pay taxes.” – Leona Helmsley (late owner of the Empire State Building)

          • GreenWin

            High taxes also enable government to carry out all manner of hidden schemes. Taxes to government are like heroin to a junkie.

          • fortyniner

            Yes, plenty of downsides, but as I said, if more equal income distribution is considered desirable, there does not seem to be any other mechanism available.

            The alternative appears to be what we have now, which if the process continues to its unmoderated end-point will inevitably result in a new feudal system. I’m not sure that is a better option.

            (I said I wouldn’t say more as this is OT. I was being economical with the truth.)

        • Roger Bird

          “the horrors and inequality of capitalism” Inequality certainly. Horrors, not in North America, but perhaps in your head in North America. I don’t see any horrors. I am happy. I see liberals exaggerating things so that they can justify their dismay over the inequalities and their hatred of rich people.

          My neighbor has three cars. We only have one. I guess we should pass a law saying that they can’t have three cars. That would be the liberal/progressive way.

          Communism was and is the worst polluters in the world. Pollution is a human problem, not a capitalist problem.

          And people who don’t have enough to eat. I only see them when I go to the free food bank and they are collecting the same free food that I am. They aren’t hungry. They just don’t want to go to the free food bank where the food is not quite as good as in Safeway or Kroger.

          And those poor people in Africa, it doesn’t matter if the country is socialist or capitalist, they are still just as poor either way.

          • Barry

            Roger, your failing to recognize back door communism. I spoke to a woman from China and she told me 2% of the Chinese own 98% of the wealth. In America, 2% own over 40% of the wealth. In the 1970s the top 2% owned 19% of the wealth. This number is obviously growing. Kids graduating from college are getting $12 dollar an hour jobs. Try buying and maintaining a quarter of a million dollar home with that. Maybe you are set for life, but the young are facing “back door communism.”

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            Labeling everything you don’t like as
            “communism”, doesn’t make it so.

            The intentional dumbing down of
            education should get some of the blame.

            Today’s college grads are little more prepared that yesteryear’s highschool grads.

            The “Education Racket” is the latest bubble.

          • Roger Bird

            Barry, you are right. We are slowly drifting towards a bi-level society, and it is not healthy. I propose generation skipping confiscation of unearned inheritance, the Fair Tax, and a good healthy change in attitude. Equitable societies clearly and distinctly do better.

            Pure rugged individualism as in the USA in 1805 works best when there are wide-open spaces where disenchanted people can move. This will happen again when we have suitcase sized LENR+. That should add to our sense of freedom.

        • Rockyspoon

          So George–you’d rather have the “equalities” of socialisam, or communism? What is this Nirvand Utopia of which you speak? It sounds a lot like Big Utopia (kinda like “Big Government”)

          You realize they’ve brainwashed you into blaiming capatalism for the faults of crony capitalism or worse, don’t you?

          As one having worked in capitalistic private business for a dozen years as a mining engineer, I can say if you think a more socialistic implementation of that particular endeavor is beneficial to the consumer (which we all are), you haven’t been objective.

          Just my personal experience–but what is yours? What is your employment history that makes you an expert at denigrating “capitalism”, or is it just a flamboyant ideology you’ve been taught at some uber-liberal university or in some Leftist “worst-seller”?

          (You’re probably also convinced “global warming” is going to be devastating to the planet when that’s a lot of hype designed to assert political and economic control over the masses, too. Another Big Utopia gone bazerk?)

          You should be really careful what you advocate.

          Let me give you an example: Say your friend wants you to vote for a power-generating system that’s fantastic (he says it is!). All it takes is a 1% Big Utopia tax increase on everybody to fund it.

          You ask what guarantee does he have it will work? Well, since your friend works for the government (the official purveyors of your “Utopia”), he will tell you a bunch of “experts” agree, and not to worry–the government will mandate it with laws. Do you think that’s a concept worth voting for? Probably so–no skin off your nose and you have very little skin in the game.

          On the other hand, say you are worth $2 million and have a friend that asks you to invest $1 million of your hard-earned money into a similar power-generating venture. He happens to work as Vice President for a corporation whose very existence and success rests on it’s technology and they get no favors or subsidies from Big Utopia. He will supply you with all the reports you need to satisfy your questions, including a cost/benefit analysis so you can expect a return (both principle and interest) on your investment. How likely are you to invest?

          With Big Utopia doing this project, there’s less expertise, less accountability, and based on historical performance, less success–the people making the critical decisions don’t have their jobs on the line so to them it isn’t a serious consideration. If it goes belly-up, no big deal, their jobs aren’t on the line. They can blame some other politician (they always do).

          With a corporation doing this project, there’s more expertise, more accountability, and based on historical performance, greater success. (It’s the main reason capitalism has lifted more people out of poverty than any other economic system in world history.)

          And like I said above this example, I’ve worked for companies that have these different cultures. One (a Public Utility) was government subsidized and regulated–and they could care less about efficiencies so electricity rates continued to climb because they asked the regulators for increases and got them–every time.

          The second company I worked for (a gold mining company) was profit driven and we worked as hard as we could to bring innovation and efficiencies to our activities and it showed up in our “bottom line”.

          Keep dreaming of this Big Utopia if you wish, George, but you can’t reach it by invoking socialism or communism. And Big Utopia is just another name for those two.

          Small government and honest capitalism is the answer. Look around if you want proof.

          (Too many people believe wealth is a zero-sum game; that you have to take from others to climb into the 1%. Well, nothing is further from the truth. You can join the 1% if you have something worth 1%. Sell the world something worth that 1% and you’ll have no regrets, and neither with the world. Advocate taking from those that have earned their wealth and you have no respect from anybody, not even from yourself if you’re honest.)

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Our media will not report it, but what do you think is going on in Egypt, the 90% is revolting against the 10%.

        • Rockyspoon


          30% of Egypt is Muslim Brotherhood, who elected Morsi 2 years ago who immediately changed the Constitution in their favor (there wasn’t even a way to recall or impeach a sitting president for any reason–he could do
          whatever he wanted.)

          The remaining 70% are more secular Muslims and Christians that were getting tired of the roughshod manner in which Morsi’s government was running things–so they did they only action available to them to get rid of Morsi; they took to the streets and got the military to oust a very unpopular president.

          I don’t think, Bernie, it has that much to do with a 90%/10% split based on wealth.

      • Paul

        Wealth is not a zero sum game. If you want wealth, create wealth. Wealth can be created and destroyed. To often what people consider the redistribution of wealth is actually the destruction of wealth. (Such as giving a farm to someone who does not know how to run a farm.)

        • Rockyspoon


          The precepts embodied in Rand’s “Atlas Shrugged” still apply here: “From those with ability to those with need” is something she railed against at length.

          “Just because you’re alive doesn’t give you the right to my hard work.” is another way of saying it.

          Everybody (with a few exceptions based on human frailties) should work to maintain their existence. And those that work harder or smarter should be rewarded accordingly. To argue against that is to say that those that work dumber and are lazier should be rewarded more!

          Such an attitude is completely opposed to Nature’s Law and is a dangerous, life-killing philosophy.

          • Roger Bird

            Rockyspoon, with the emphasis on the word rock, you are coming off surprising hard. Not caring about others is simply something I am not going to be doing, no matter how cleverly you put it.

            MOST of what people here are railing against is not about hardwork. I challenge you to find one person here who thinks those who work hard should not be rewarded for their hard work. I certainly support anyone’s hardwork, which would include risk taking, decision making, 16 hour days, etc. etc. Most people who are complaining are doing so about unearned wealth and unearned income. It is funny how conservatives criticize unearned income and support unearned wealth. While liberals criticize unearned wealth and support unearned income.

            I couldn’t get thru Atlas Shrugged the movie because it sucked. The presentation was so stilted and dark and deeply absurd, and I haven’t even started talking about Objectivism. I am for transcending the duality of objectivity and subjectivity.

            I think that the problem may be the concept of private property. Let’s say I bought a condominium in Kiev, Russia. And I was charging rent on that condo. Isn’t that stretching the idea of private property a great deal. I never visit the place. If I don’t get my rent check I call the Russian police and have them take care of my problem. Isn’t it coercion to stick hard and fast to the concept of private property, as opposed to buying a duplex and renting out the other side. Or, some dude works hard to build up a company, and bless his heart for doing so. But other people have been helping him for decades, getting up every morning and doing a good job. But they have NO say and no share in the company.

    • Omega Z


      Agree with nearly all except with 2 family income thingy. Aside from many still being single family incomes, All that extra goes for many toys we didn’t use to have.

      Sadly, they don’t last long & are in constant need of being replaced/upgraded Etc.
      Hard to get ahead in life when you spend everything just to maintain the present. We tread water.

      • Roger Bird

        We the people tread water because we don’t control our budgets. We don’t control our budgets because we don’t control our desires. We don’t control our desires because we think that desire fulfillment is THE means of being happy.

        • Barry

          We tread water because a fixer upper house cost a quarter of a million.

          • Roger Bird

            Yes, and why does a fixer upper house cost so much? Because the housing and building codes get more demanding. I can’t buy a cheap steel arch home for some regulatory reason. And why do the housing and building codes get more demanding? Because our expectations get more demanding. I bet now the regulations say that every room has to be wired for cable, even though that is becoming obsolete with wi-fi. That just adds to the cost of the house. What if you don’t want your rooms wired? What if you think that electromagnetic fields can be disruptive to the body’s electromagnetic field? Too bad.

            And why are the expectations getting more demanding? Because our desires are expanding. They do that. People fantisize that they can’t be happy without every room being wired for cable. It gets back to the desires, always.

        • fortyniner

          While it is true that some people may have only themselves to blame for their poverty, many younger people tread water because they couldn’t resist the desire to get a university degree in order to be able to compete in a jobs market where 50 people are after every low-paid job. Consequently they are saddled with huge debt before they even set out on their life’s journeys, and stand as much chance of buying a house as of going to the moon.

          Sanctimonious generalisations about why the poor are poor (and deserve to be?) are to put it mildly, unhelpful.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer


          • Jim


            1% control 35%
            10% control 70%

            and they use that control to maintain a system that INCREASES their share of the wealth, AND leaves tens of millions of AMERICANS in physiological, material and educational want (not to mention the rest of the world).

            Moral = whether something hurts or helps other people

          • Jim

            So the question is, are the 1% insufficiently intelligent, or insufficiently moral to come up with a better system, or both?

            In either case, is there not a case for action of reducing their control over the system?

            The only question is how to do that. And the only answer I’ve seen is to increase the sense of moral outrage over their ignorant, amoral behavior, by publicizing the harm to real, living human beings that it causes.

            It doesn’t matter that “capitalism” is better than “socialism”. What matters is that the current system is not good enough.

            And if someone chooses to close their heart and mind to the suffering of millions, then I guess that’s something other people might need to take into account in dealing with them.

          • BroKeeper

            However, should the spirits be swapped at birth between the rich and poor the outcome would more than likely be the same. We are caught up in self-perpetuating systems that the human spirit has little control as history has attested many times over (nothing is new under the sun).

            So what is the answer? Justice, morality, intelligence, equality, finger pointing …. what? Where do all those qualities come from?

            I don’t have all the answers. My past proves that. But I believe it will take something bigger than all of us and a few grams of nickel.

            Maybe it’s too heavy of a subject for most but here’s a nickel for your thoughts (inflation).

          • Roger Bird

            I am afraid that the deeper we go the more controversial it becomes, so I dare not delve into final answers. I have pearls, but this is an open forum Just know that there are final answers, my friends. (:->)

          • BroKeeper

            Unfortunately and fortunately, you are right: we all have to learn ‘it doesn’t work’.

          • Barry

            +1 Sounds like unbiased truth Peter.

  • Roger Bird

    So much hot air. But when I have doubts, I just remember the pictures of the glowing cylinders and the Levi et. al. 3rd party report, which for me is as solid as jade. I cannot conceive of a universe where all of those scientists would be lying or incompetent. And watching Rossi during an interview doesn’t hurt either. (:->) He seems too sweet and humble to be a lying crook.

  • Christina

    I pray that if the E-Cat is real and that Mr. Rossi and the company/people he’s partnering with patiently lay the groundwork for releasing the E-Cat so that the economy is not too disturbed.

    Remember the Pill; the person who developed it, a doctor and a Catholic, thought the Pope would approve of it. But the Church didn’t approve it because it took away God’s right to make a child as God has taught since Abraham (first through the Jewish rabbis and priests, then through the Catholic Church)that making love was a covenant with God that He may make a child. And yes, I know the biology behind conception, gestation, and birth, but God is still doing it.

    My point is to be sure of one’s facts and base them on truth, not suppositions. So if it takes Rossi and company another two years to get it right, that’s what it takes. (I hope he’s still focusing on little E-Cats for the home.)

    Can the E-Cat make as bad an impact on the economy as the Pill did on people’s obeying the Catholic Church? I hope not.

    • Timar

      What a strange comparison! This is about technology and its impact on economy, not about religious ideology. I think that any short-term negative impact would eventually superseded by the economic boom made possible due to minimized energy costs. I think both are liberating inventions – LENR has the potential to liberate people from the dependence of expensive, polluting fossil fuels and the oppressive power structure in charge of them, just like the pill, in a way, liberated woman from the anachronistic Dogmas of the Catholic Church, which originate in a historic epoch vastly different from ours and thus in many regards are at odds with our modern, gender-liberated and overpopulated world.

  • graham bell

    Did anybody based in the UK listen to the BBC radio “energy day” output yesterday? It was billed as a full day of discussion on energy futures with wind farm and fracking being the main topics.I didn’t listen for the full day but there seemed to be no mention of LENR at all.. not even as a very long shot which could transform the outlook for energy worldwide. Did anyone listening hear any LENR content?

    • fortyniner

      It’s the BBC, Graham – official propaganda arm of the UK establishment and purveyor of disinformation about almost everything. When undisputable proof of the practicability of cold fusion is common knowledge, it might get a dismissive 1 minute slot on ‘Horizon’ before they tell us why more nuclear fission is a much better idea.

      • GreenWin

        LENR is a black project at moment. It has been so since the October 28th Rossi demo after which a Navy commander ordered it so. Does anyone seriously expect open media from a black project??

  • Anthony

    Somewhat OT, but UK readers may be interested in this website, which shows power demand and sources at any given moment:

    Windpower is of course negligible most of the time !

  • Andy r

    I have been following the AR story for a couple of years now and of all the reports it seems to have more possibility than any other, and I wish him well for all of us.

    I read a lot of comments on this thread about wealth, the haves and the have nots, who controls what and so on. For some time I have been of the opinion that the human race has lost its way on this issue. It seems most people are seeking money so they can be happy. Without doubt if you do not have the basics such as food, water, shelter, warmth etc you are going to suffer, and as a consequence be unhappy, and I do not think for one moment that we should do or say anything to detract from the attempts to raise people out of poverty.

    Once that has been achieved a different motivator seems to come into play, it seems that people start to think “if I have more money I will be more happy as I will have more stuff and/or more power”. That desire to have more money, and the struggle to get it makes us unhappy, with a momentary pocket of happiness when we get something -like a new computer, new fishing rod, new car etc. then off we go again on the next quest, dissatisfied we don’t have an xxxxx.

    Why do we think like this? Why do we think that more stuff = more happiness. Maybe we think more stuff = more security = safety = happy. Don’t get me wrong, I have loads of stuff, I’m probably more better off than many, so this isn’t a post to tell people to live like me!

    It just strikes me that until we can find a way as a race of reaching contentment without permanently acquiring we will not solve the issues of needing more and more resources and power. I guess what we need is some way of helping people see through the adverts selling the latest thing, and the feeling they must have at least what others have, then some more to have “made it”

    If anyone knows how, let me know 🙂

    • Roger Bird

      Buddha said it with great precision. Dave Ramsey says it every day on the radio before and after 2:45 P.M. Mountain Time. Many spiritual and religious leaders have said it. Perhaps Frank could send you my email address. Frank, could you do that for us?