Rossi: Turbines not yet Hooked to Hot Cat

I asked Andrea Rossi a question on the Journal of Nuclear Physics today about progress his team has made as far as electricity production. Yesterday he had mentioned that he had not much experience with turbines, which made me curious:

January 11th, 2014 at 11:08 AM
Dear Andrea,

I hope all is going well with the R&D and long-term testing.
Have you done any testing of the hot cat with turbines to generate electricity?
Best wishes,

Frank Acland

—————–

January 11th, 2014 at 1:36 PM
Frank Acland:
Not yet. We are continuing our R&D and validation work and we will pass to the coupling with turbines when we will have consolidated positive results at the end of this R&D and validation stage. Remember that the results could also be negative.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

It’s somewhat surprising that with the performance that Rossi has reported from the hot cat that they haven’t yet tried to use its heat to generate electricity, but it sounds like they are wanting to fully examine the long-term stability of their reactors before they move on to the next stage. I imagine there will be a considerable amount of engineering involved in designing a system to fit the hot cats to a turbine, so even if the hot cat passes its test with flying colors, it could be some time before Rossi and Co. will be able to start generating electricity.

  • Christina

    May it be as God wills it for God would want us to succeed even more than we do as He told us to care for the hungry, the sick, the hurting.

    • Veblin

      I completely agree that we should care for the hungry, the sick, the hurting. The rest is just bla bla bla to me.

      • Fortyniner

        I would also be happier if we could keep religion out of this discussion.

        • Veblin

          A man I agree with.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Me too. I believe Christina to be a very lovable and sweet soul, however the constant mentioning of religion is grating for an atheist such as myself. I don’t have a problem with being blessed by a good wish from Christina, but as soon as it is mentioned that something is Gods will, I have to disagree. My problem is that religion is something you *believe* in, but it’s not made up of *facts*. Therefore it cannot be used as an argument in a discussion.

          Now anyone may believe whatever is comfortable for him or her, but it’s best to keep your religious believes to yourself and not use it as an argument. So anyone may bless me and I wish them the same (to me that’s just wishing the other party well), but please refrain from saying that it’s some deities will something should happen.

          So Christina, simply say YOU think something should happen and then everything will be fine and religion won’t be an issue because it’s an opinion of a valued member here, not the opinion of a deity that can’t be verified.

          • bachcole

            You should look within to try to understand why you are irritated so much by her. You are trying your best to force believers to be as shallow as you are. Atheism is by definition shallow.

          • Veblin

            Jump #2

          • Fortyniner

            Your definition, perhaps.

          • georgehants

            bachcole and all, it matters not if one is atheist, religious, spiritualist or what ever, it only matters the true goodness in one’s mind.

          • bachcole

            Do you mean that if I beat the hell out of an innocent person with a crucifix rather than a lead pipe that it won’t make any difference?

          • Fortyniner

            ? Your comments get more and more bizarre, Roger. I wonder if you even understood GH’s point.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            I’d think you would be a bad person either way. Not getting your argument here.

          • bachcole

            I was sarcastically making george’s point.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Roger, what’s up with all the defending of Christina? Christina is a smart woman who seems fully capable to understand this is not against her personally, but simply a consensus by I guess most to leave religion out of the discusion as it has the potential to distort that discussion.

            Christina is a full grown adult and if she disagrees with what is being said then she can join the discussion. She will be treated with respect and be listened to as we have done before. However this is an online forum where people of all kinds meet and as such friction will occur. That’s normal and healthy.

            So you don’t need to be her knight in shining armor; the lady can take care of herself.

            Lastly, by calling atheism and by extension me shallow is a bit sad. I don’t think you are shallow but an interesting person though I do not use religion to judge you. It’s a shame you feel the need to judge me on the fact that I do not believe. Which is the sort of thing I think most of us are trying to avoid here.

          • bachcole

            I am merely being defensive. I see organized religion being attacked, and I defend it, although I do not adhere to any organized religion. I just think that they have a perfect right to be whatever way that they are.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            I do not see the attack here. And it’s a bit puzzling why you should defend religion although you do not adhere to it. Is it religion or Christina you try to defend? The latter is very chivalrous, but not really nessecary as I’ve already explained earlier. It is all getting a bit weird.

          • bachcole

            I don’t want to see anyone attacked, particularly someone who is doing that best that they are able.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            There is still no attack going on. An attack would be if I would deny someone his or her right to believe. I also do not say God does not exist for others because it does not exist for me, neither do I ridicule religion. I merely point out that religion does not deliver good arguments.

            The attack is in your perception, not in mine and I suspect no others. Best to just let it go, ok?

          • Iggy Dalrymple
          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Thanks Iggy, that’s beautiful.

        • bachcole

          And I wish that you would keep your envy driven politics out of this discussion.

          • bitplayer

            I wish that bachole would desist from attack rhetoric.

          • bachcole

            I am not in attack mode. I am in defense mode, defending a sweet lady who has plenty to offer in this forum

      • bachcole

        I resent your putting Christina down and wish that you would be a little more tolerant.

        • Veblin

          Fonzie did it Jump.

          • bachcole

            I am not a conservative Christian nor would 99.99% of all Christians think that I was a Christian if they knew where I really was at. And I share you guys’ irritation at Christina. But if the word “tolerance” has any meaning, it does not mean ones attitude towards what one likes. I am not tolerant of curry because I like curry. Tolerance is only real when it is directed at those who irritate one. I believe that Christina is deliberately trying to get a rise out of you’all. But even if she wasn’t, what kind of tolerance is it if you have it only for those who happen to like.

          • Fortyniner

            Read your own words. Why do you preach tolerance when you are clearly intolerant of any opinion that differs from your own? Perhaps a little more introspection would be in order before posting.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            “The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.” Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV)

          • bachcole

            Yes, but what does that mean? Is that stage right or one’s own right. And the concept of political right and left started shortly after the Revolution in France, about 2100 years more or less after Ecclesiastes was written.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            Lighten up Roger. It’s a joke. I doubt the Bible was talking about politics, but it still strikes home.

  • Christina

    May it be as God wills it for God would want us to succeed even more than we do as He told us to care for the hungry, the sick, the hurting.

    • Veblin

      I completely agree that we should care for the hungry, the sick, the hurting. The rest is just bla bla bla to me.

      • I would also be happier if we could keep religion out of this discussion.

        • Veblin

          A man I agree with.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Me too. I believe Christina to be a very lovable and sweet soul, however the constant mentioning of religion is grating for an atheist such as myself. I don’t have a problem with being blessed by a good wish from Christina, but as soon as it is mentioned that something is Gods will, I have to disagree. My problem is that religion is something you *believe* in, but it’s not made up of *facts*. Therefore it cannot be used as an argument in a discussion.

          Now anyone may believe whatever is comfortable for him or her, but it’s best to keep your religious believes to yourself and not use it as an argument. So anyone may bless me and I wish them the same (to me that’s just wishing the other party well), but please refrain from saying that it’s some deities will something should happen.

          So Christina, simply say YOU think something should happen and then everything will be fine and religion won’t be an issue because it’s an opinion of a valued member here, not the opinion of a deity that can’t be verified.

          • bachcole

            You should look within to try to understand why you are irritated so much by her. You are trying your best to force believers to be as shallow as you are. Atheism is by definition shallow.

          • Veblin

            Jump #2

          • Bob

            The problem with bringing religion into it is that it introduces a level of veracity into the inventors claims without being backed up by provable facts.
            All they have to do is say that they are doing gods will and then anyone of religious beliefs is swayed into thinking it must be genuine because how could it not be if they are doing gods will.
            They take that viewpoint subconciously and would probably deny it if asked, but it is a fact of life.
            It is why some terrorist groups can literally get away with murder in their societies because they claim to be doing gods will, and no-one would want to speak anything bad about that would they?
            I don’t use a capital g in this instance because I don’t believe they have the same God as I do.

          • bachcole

            Bob, Christina brings God into the social aspect of this forum, NOT anything else. Rossi doesn’t. I am just defending Christina’s right to bring God into the social aspect of this forum. That is a huge way from anything that you are talking about.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            I can’t imagine anyone having a problem with the social aspect of it. A blessing from someone is a lovely gesture and for me isn’t the problem at all. But a seemingly innocent phrase like “for God would want us to” is. I cannot literally go to God and ask him if he really would want that. So it’s best not to use arguments based on that.

            If you cannot see that, maybe it’s best to agree to disagree.

          • bachcole

            I see that. I just skip over that sort of thing since it is meaningless and I skip over a lot of things.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            That’s fine then Roger, but you may have noticed that you cannot really expect the same from the others who may not find that meaningless. Anyway, it’s always good to exchange points of view.

          • Your definition, perhaps.

          • georgehants

            bachcole and all, it matters not if one is atheist, religious, spiritualist or what ever, it only matters the true goodness in one’s mind.

          • bachcole

            Do you mean that if I beat the hell out of an innocent person with a crucifix rather than a lead pipe that it won’t make any difference?

          • ? Your comments get more and more bizarre, Roger. I wonder if you even understood George’s point.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            I’d think you would be a bad person either way. Not getting your argument here.

          • bachcole

            I was sarcastically making george’s point.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Roger, what’s up with all the defending of Christina? Christina is a smart woman who seems fully capable to understand this is not against her personally, but simply a consensus by I guess most to leave religion out of the discusion as it has the potential to distort that discussion.

            Christina is a full grown adult and if she disagrees with what is being said then she can join the discussion. She will be treated with respect and be listened to as we have done before. However this is an online forum where people of all kinds meet and as such friction will occur. That’s normal and healthy.

            So you don’t need to be her knight in shining armor; the lady can take care of herself.

            Lastly, by calling atheism and by extension me shallow is a bit sad. I don’t think you are shallow but an interesting person though I do not use religion to judge you. It’s a shame you feel the need to judge me on the fact that I do not believe. Which is the sort of thing I think most of us are trying to avoid here.

          • bachcole

            I am merely being defensive. I see organized religion being attacked, and I defend it, although I do not adhere to any organized religion. I just think that they have a perfect right to be whatever way that they are.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            I do not see the attack here. And it’s a bit puzzling why you should defend religion although you do not adhere to it. Is it religion or Christina you try to defend? The latter is very chivalrous, but not really nessecary as I’ve already explained earlier. It is all getting a bit weird.

          • bachcole

            I don’t want to see anyone attacked, particularly someone who is doing that best that they are able.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            There is still no attack going on. An attack would be if I would deny someone his or her right to believe. I also do not say God does not exist for others because it does not exist for me, neither do I ridicule religion. I merely point out that religion does not deliver good arguments.

            The attack is in your perception, not in mine and I suspect no others. Best to just let it go, ok?

          • bachcole

            Frank has put me in moderation, which is exactly where I have belonged since we switched to the new system. But, the “up click” is NOT moderated, so if you want to see if I agree, mouse over your “up click”. Otherwise there will be a delay or perhaps no response because of the moderation.

          • Iggy Dalrymple
          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Thanks Iggy, that’s beautiful.

        • bachcole

          And I wish that you would keep your envy driven politics out of this discussion.

      • bachcole

        I resent your putting Christina down and wish that you would be a little more tolerant.

        • Veblin

          Fonzie did it Jump.

          • bachcole

            I am not a conservative Christian nor would 99.99% of all Christians think that I was a Christian if they knew where I really was at. And I share you guys’ irritation at Christina. But if the word “tolerance” has any meaning, it does not mean ones attitude towards what one likes. I am not tolerant of curry because I like curry. Tolerance is only real when it is directed at those who irritate one. I believe that Christina is deliberately trying to get a rise out of you’all. But even if she wasn’t, what kind of tolerance is it if you have it only for those who happen to like.

          • You preach tolerance and introspection at others, yet don’t seem to practise it when reacting to any opinion or world view that differs from your own. Perhaps you should try to heed your own words occasionally.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            “The heart of the wise inclines to the right, but the heart of the fool to the left.” Ecclesiastes 10:2 (NIV)

          • bachcole

            Yes, but what does that mean? Is that stage right or one’s own right. And the concept of political right and left started shortly after the Revolution in France, about 2100 years more or less after Ecclesiastes was written.

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            Lighten up Roger. It’s a joke. I doubt the Bible was talking about politics, but it still strikes home.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    It seems that they want to fix the design and operating parametres before starting to work with turbines. It has to be done either E-cat first or turbine first. Maybe the E-cat first strategy is good if the goal is large-scale production so that the one-time cost of tailoring the design of the turbine is irrelevant.

    • Fortyniner

      Agreed – it wouldn’t make much sense to design a boiler and turbine around a reactor type that hadn’t been fully optimised for output and stability. Of course it is also possible that cooling the current best reactor design causes problems that are yet to be resolved.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        I agree also. In an environment where the reactors have to drive a turbine, they will be stressed continually to deliver the requested power all the time under varying thermal conditions. You really have to have a reactor that is 100% controllable under those stressful situations, otherwise you could get runaway, meltdown or shutdown issues. It’s almost certain that an e-cat reactor powering a turbine is in reality a collection of e-cat reactors bundled to one big reactor, each e-cat potentially adding to the total output but also potentially influencing each other. Knowing that temperature is one way to control the reaction, in a steam driven turbine environment, temperature of a single e-cat may be very difficult to control so the e-cat reactor should be developed to be totally controllable under every stress situation before you can attempt to drive a turbine with it.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          Are our current generators throttled up and down, or are they on or off?
          I think the nukes are constant power, with gas turbines kicking in for high demand.

          • Fortyniner

            Thermal output from fission reactors is fine-tuned using ‘control rods’ containing boron salts that absorb neutrons. These are driven in and out of the core by electric motors responding to control systems. Only a narrow range of operation is possible though, so in effect the pile is either running at nominal output or shut down, as you say. More or less the same applies to all steam-cycle generators, and load matching is carried out within the grid by standby generators as suggested by wikipedia.

            From what we (think we) know, the relatively slow responses of e-cat generators may mean that they will only be suitable for base load operation, which in turn implies that some kind of grid incorporating storage systems and standby capacity will need to be maintained. Even if distributed systems become the norm, interconnectors will need to be kept in place to cope with load variations.

        • Fortyniner

          “a collection of e-cat reactors bundled to one big reactor”

          That seems to be the only likely design solution, given both the cyclic operation and the pverall power outputs that are required. I would guess that asome kind of ‘thermal flywheel’ will also be needed to prevent local over-cooling or over-heating. The simplest engineering solution would be to embed all the cores in a block of metal which also contains bores for coolant heating or evaporation. As the reactors seem to need running at relatively high temperatures, a 2-stage system using liquid metal, liquid salts or similar, flowing to a heat exchanger for water boiling, would seem to be a likely option. The primary coolant could then also provide the thermal mass needed for stability.

    • Omega Z

      Agreed, I posted before, A need to Design the E-cat as much as possible to fit existing Turbine technology & coupling.
      Then if needed, Adapt the Turbine to the E-cat.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    It seems that they want to fix the design and operating parametres before starting to work with turbines. It has to be done either E-cat first or turbine first. Maybe the E-cat first strategy is good if the goal is large-scale production so that the one-time cost of tailoring the design of the turbine is irrelevant.

    • Agreed – it wouldn’t make much sense to design a boiler and turbine around a reactor type that hadn’t been fully optimised for output and stability. Of course it is also possible that cooling the current best reactor design causes problems that have yet to be resolved.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        I agree also. In an environment where the reactors have to drive a turbine, they will be stressed continually to deliver the requested power all the time under varying thermal conditions. You really have to have a reactor that is 100% controllable under those stressful situations, otherwise you could get runaway, meltdown or shutdown issues. It’s almost certain that an e-cat reactor powering a turbine is in reality a collection of e-cat reactors bundled to one big reactor, each e-cat potentially adding to the total output but also potentially influencing each other. Knowing that temperature is one way to control the reaction, in a steam driven turbine environment, temperature of a single e-cat may be very difficult to control so the e-cat reactor should be developed to be totally controllable under every stress situation before you can attempt to drive a turbine with it.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          Are our current generators throttled up and down, or are they on/off?
          I think the nukes are constant power, with gas turbines kicking in for high demand.
          WIKI claims most “peaking” is handled by gas turbines and hydro.

          • Thermal output from fission reactors is fine-tuned using ‘control rods’ containing boron salts that absorb neutrons. These are driven in and out of the core by electric motors responding to control systems. Only a narrow range of operation is possible though, so in effect the pile is either running at nominal output or shut down, as you say. More or less the same applies to all steam-cycle generators, and load matching is carried out within the grid by storage systems or standby generators as per wikipedia.

            From what we (think we) know, the relatively slow responses of e-cat generators may mean that they will only be suitable for base load operation, which in turn implies that some kind of grid incorporating storage systems and standby capacity will need to be maintained. Even if distributed systems become the norm, some interconnectors, storage systems and backup generators will need to be kept in place to cope with load variations.

        • “a collection of e-cat reactors bundled to one big reactor”

          That seems to be the only likely design solution, given both the cyclic operation of current reactors and the overall power outputs that are required. I would guess that some kind of ‘thermal flywheel’ will also be needed to prevent local over-cooling or over-heating.

          The simplest engineering solution would be to embed all the cores in a heavy block of metal which also contains bores for coolant heating or evaporation under pressure. As the reactors seem to need to be run at relatively high temperatures, a 2-stage system using liquid metal, liquid salts, HT oil or similar, flowing to a heat exchanger for water boiling, would also be an option. The primary coolant would then provide the thermal mass needed for stability, removing the need for a fixed mass.

          However, developing liquid metal/salts cooling systems is difficult and demanding, and given Rossi’s apparent preference for simple solutions, pressurised water or oil cooling in combination with a fixed metal mass seems a more likely choice.

      • Bob

        Since it is now more than three years after the announcement of this device and we have yet to see any evidence of 5 kilowatts or 1 megawatt of steam output, I think any talk of driving a turbine is more than a little premature.
        Turbines require a noticeably large volume of high pressure high velocity steam to drive them.
        In all the pictures and videos released so far, all we have seen is a small pipe fluffing very low flow rates of steam and some static pictures of a glowing hot cat, which was impressive but being in a static condition, gave no indication of the rate of producing energy.
        Before we start choosing turbines, show us a video of a steam nozzle ejecting high pressure steam at a rate which could be reasonably expected to generate a meaningful level of power.

        • Brokeeper

          Yes, that is one of the inherent weaknesses of the E-Cat, at least a year ago. Cooling appears to disrupt maintaining a sustainable reaction within. I’m sure this has been the number one issue the team has been developing since. But like you indicted “proof is in the pudding”. I’m hoping it will be delivered with whip cream and a cherry on top.

    • lkelemen

      Or perhaps they don’t need a turbine if the e-cat generates electricity without it

      • Brokeeper

        Maybe. Eventually. Another potential phase of development from the unexpected strong magnetic byproduct. Good point.

    • Omega Z

      Agreed, I posted before, A need to Design the E-cat as much as possible to fit existing Turbine technology & coupling.
      Then if needed, Adapt the Turbine to the E-cat.

      • roseland67

        Disagree,
        The need is to prove beyond any doubt that Energy Out > Energy In.
        It must be safe, reliable, repeatable, repairable, controllable and scalable.
        Once this is accomplished the global engineering community, (not Rossi),
        will develop the products/solutions to best take advantage of the process.
        As of 1-12-2014, doubt remains.

  • Guru

    President Obama to visit the Triangle next week

    http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/2014/01/president-to-visit-the-triangle.html
    A rapid surge of interest in Triangle

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Former Sec of Energy, Gov Bill Richardson, spoke tonight on FoxNews about the need for distributed power generation.

      Maybe what we need is a terrorist attack on our electric grid.

      • Brokeeper

        The attack will come as distributed E-Cats terrorizing McScrooge.

      • Guru

        It is easy predictable, that after some revelations about E-Cat or Defkalion, politicians will playing on stage in lights upfront cameras “a million new jobs will be added (with our nonexistent support”, however thay will silent about 2 times more jobs will destroyed in old obsolete sectors.

        You know this game: When economy or whatever goes from 100 to 66 level output, and after that back to 100, they will screaming: “During our mandate timeframe economy goes 50 % up, although prior this goes ONLY 33 % down”

        Old cheap trick

  • blanco69

    Why does he continually tell us that results could be negative? If you thought the results were negative then why continue at all. We’ve never seen an ecat with a cop of less than 3 so why would anyone suspect that this generation of ecats would suddenly become endothermic? I know that Rossi has been keen in the past to distance himself from the 3rd party testing by continually highlighting the prospect of a negative result. But what about his own work? I don’t believe that he doesn’t know after all this time. It would be a huge slap in the face for Levi et all if the results were negative. Let’s face it a negative result just ain’t going to happen.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      I think he has to distance himself in any way possible from the third party reports. So he keeps mentioning that any outcome is possible since he himself has no control at all over the third party test.
      It’s just politics because I also believe the only outcome is positive. I mean, the guy is working in the kilowatt to megawatt range. It really shouldn’t’ be difficult to test his devices for input / output energy gain.

      • ecatworld

        He made similar statements before the publication of the Levi report last year.

        • Omega Z

          Keep the competition Guessing???

    • roseland67

      Maybe because he hasn’t figured out how to scale or control the “reaction” yet.
      The consistant hedging here is cause for concern.

    • Allan Shura

      Possibly this type of wording could be legal public relations jargon such as the statement I can neither confirm nor deny.

  • blanco69

    Why does he continually tell us that results could be negative? If you thought the results were negative then why continue at all. We’ve never seen an ecat with a cop of less than 3 so why would anyone suspect that this generation of ecats would suddenly become endothermic? I know that Rossi has been keen in the past to distance himself from the 3rd party testing by continually highlighting the prospect of a negative result. But what about his own work? I don’t believe that he doesn’t know after all this time. It would be a huge slap in the face for Levi et all if the results were negative. Let’s face it a negative result just ain’t going to happen.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      I think he has to distance himself in any way possible from the third party reports. So he keeps mentioning that any outcome is possible since he himself has no control at all over the third party test.
      It’s just politics because I also believe the only outcome is positive. I mean, the guy is working in the kilowatt to megawatt range. It really shouldn’t’ be difficult to test his devices for input / output energy gain.

      • Frank Acland

        He made similar statements before the publication of the Levi report last year.

        • winebuff

          I almost think he is sticking his finger in the eye of the skeptics. Keep the pot stirred as it were.

        • Omega Z

          Keep the competition Guessing???

    • roseland67

      Maybe because he hasn’t figured out how to scale or control the “reaction” yet.
      The consistant hedging here is cause for concern.

    • Allan Shura

      Possibly this type of wording could be legal public relations jargon such as the statement I can neither confirm nor deny.

  • f sedei

    I firmly believe that NASA and the military secretive R&D probably are more advanced in the testing process than Rossi than is their Rossi counterpart.

    • Probably. We’ll find out when they’ve got something even better – perhaps in a decade or so.

  • Allan Shura

    From what I understand Rossi has diverted attention from the domestic e-cat. The suggestion is he is focusing
    on refitting existing electrical power generation boilers. Interestingly many boilers used in large industrial plants
    are not used for electrical generation but rather to simply provide steam for processes. As for the turbine fitting
    Frank, yes for an integrated generating unit. With retrofitting there is no complication at all. The heat needs
    be applied to or set into the center of the existing boiler in power plants replacing the conventional fuel fireball.
    In power plants the existing superheated steam tubes are already attached to the generators.

  • Allan Shura

    From what I understand Rossi has diverted attention from the domestic e-cat. The suggestion is he is focusing
    on refitting existing electrical power generation boilers. Interestingly many boilers used in large industrial plants
    are not used for electrical generation but rather to simply provide steam for processes. As for the turbine fitting
    Frank, yes for an integrated generating unit. With retrofitting there is no complication at all. The heat needs
    be applied to or set into the center of the existing boiler in power plants replacing the conventional fuel fireball.
    In power plants the existing superheated steam tubes are already attached to the generators.

  • Tom59

    Let Rossi and his Partners stick with the heat generating e-cat as core competence and only product – to get that right is more then enough of a challenge. Let experts in energy conversion handle electricity generation, propulsion etc.

    • Fortyniner

      The performance of any device is dependent on the conditions it is required to work under. If the e-cat is required to boil water for instance, it will need to work even while being actively cooled. As the rate of cooling is likely to be critical, then as a minimum a complete boiler unit c/w reactors would need to be developed. It’s also likely that different cores and boilers will need to be developed for various applications, and all these various configurations will need to be designed and tested as complete assemblies at source, i.e. Rossi’s R&D facility.

      • GreenWin

        This is why I think it interesting to consider using E-Cat heat to drive the hot side of a Stirling engine. Especially a piston-less engine like NASA’s thermo-acoustic engine that needs only heat and electronics to shape its standing wave. These engines are very new and scaled down to 3-4kWe size – but look promising for an small appliance type CHP system.

        My feeling is that Kamen has built a Stirling for his Beacon 10 system and it may be that before trying to build a multi-megawatt Ecat + boiler + turbine — a simple E-Cat plus Stirling may require far less temperature control.

  • Tom59

    Let Rossi and his Partners stick with the heat generating e-cat as core competence and only product – to get that right is more then enough of a challenge. Let experts in energy conversion handle electricity generation, propulsion etc.

    • The performance of any device is dependent on the conditions it is required to work under. If the e-cat core is required to boil water directly or to heat a primary coolant such as a liquid salt for instance, it will need to work at acceptable efficiency while being actively cooled. As the rate of cooling is likely to be critical, then as a minimum a complete boiler/primary heater unit c/w reactors and control system would need to be developed together. It’s also likely that different cores and boilers/heaters will need to be developed for various applications, and each configuration will need to be separately designed and thoroughly tested as a complete assembly before drawings can be signed off and manufacture can begin.

      • GreenWin

        This is why I think it interesting to consider using E-Cat heat to drive the hot side of a Stirling engine. Especially a piston-less engine like NASA’s thermo-acoustic engine that needs only heat and electronics to shape its standing wave. These engines are very new and scaled down to 3-4kWe size – but look promising for an small appliance type CHP system.

        My feeling is that Kamen has built a Stirling for his Beacon 10 system and it may be that before trying to build a multi-megawatt Ecat + boiler + turbine — a simple E-Cat plus Stirling may require far less temperature control.

  • bachcole

    Remember that just because a Hot-Cat can glow in a brightly lit room does not mean that it can withstand being submerged in a lot of cold water, which would rob it of heat.

  • bachcole

    Remember that just because a Hot-Cat can glow in a brightly lit room does not mean that it can withstand being submerged in a lot of cold water, which would rob it of heat.

    • Christina

      Pardon me, bachcole, I don’t understand. If the Hot-Cat is surrounded by water-impenetrable material, such as perhaps graphene, are you saying that the cold could extinguish the Hot-Cat even though the water isn’t touching it. I mean, they must have a way of protecting engines from even the cold of space or we wouldn’t have made it to Luna.

      Thank you very much for clearing this up for me.

      • bachcole

        My left brain illustration: Think of the Hawaiian volcano dripping red hot lava into the Pacific Ocean. You’ve seen those pictures. Which one wins, the Pacific Ocean or the lava? If the E-Cat drops below a certain temperature, it MIGHT not have enough heat to continue the process. Remember that the E-Cat needs an electrical input to get started. My thought assumes that the electricity is used primarily or at least partially to generate heat. This, of course, is my semi-educated speculation. (:->)

        • Christina

          bachcole, thank you very much.

      • Spacecraft reaction engines have to use materials such as titanium, ceramics and graphite or molybdenum disulphide lubricants, so that they can function at almost any temperature. As power sources, spacecraft use fuel cells and batteries, which must be kept warm in order to function. Unmanned craft sometimes use small plutonium reactors to generate electricity using thermoelectric converters, but these provide their own heat under any conditions.

        E-cats used in space would probably be more similar to fuel cells, in that they would need to be heavily insulated and kept warm by continuous operation. Thermoelectric converters would only draw off heat at a relatively limited rate, and there would be little damping effect, although efficiency would be fairly low.

        However to make steam, a coolant (water or some other liquid in a 2-stage system) has to pass over the reactor skin in order to remove large amounts of heat by conduction, and it seems possible that this could cool the reactor core below the point where the CF reaction occurs. Its just a question of degree – how much heat you are removing in any given time. It is possible that Rossi still has problems in this area.

        • Christina

          Fortyniner, thank you very much.

    • Bob

      This was an argument used years ago when it was suggested the most reliable test for the original but now seemingly deceased e-cat was to simply heat a bucket of water.
      It was said the cold water would extinguish the reaction and therefore could not be used to test the energy output.
      It was a false argument, and I think it was used only to justify the use of a measuring technique which could be more convincingly fiddled, thus we had all that attached hardware of heat exchangers and ridiculously high flow rates of coolant for the semi public testings as shown in the videos released.
      The fact is, the water can be as cold as you like and so long as it is in a thermally separated cooling jacket it would have no possibility of quenching any len reaction. provided of course that the supposed reaction was generating some heat/energy.
      The thermal separation could be something as simple as an air gap.
      The present testing of the hot-cat is going through the same procedure using test methods which are always going to end up in controversy due to claims of emissivity errors and measurement errors of something which is quite difficult to measure accurately.
      So the original question remains, why not simply surround the hot-cat with an enclosed water jacket with a suitable thermally insulating gap between the device and the water jacket such that the supposed reaction is not quenched?
      The science needed to test the device is then reduced to a matter of utmost simplicity, reliability and transparency to the point where most people would have no trouble accepting the results.
      Will it be done? I doubt it, for the same reason it was not done in the October 2012 test of the e-cat.

      • I agree that there was a lot wrong with early test methods, that made the results questionable to one degree or another. Belief or otherwise tended to come down to judgement calls based on rather soft evidence. However these early public tests were performed at a time when Rossi needed to attract interest and support despite the technology being in its infancy, and the situation is now very different.

        It shouldn’t need saying yet again that at this stage, Rossi no longer needs to prove his devices to you or anyone else outside his circle of R&D associates and potential investors. Nevertheless he has subjected prototypes to two rounds of completely independent tests, and we will hopefully learn the results of the second round soon.

        Who knows – they may even have incorporated something like the air gap system you propose, this time. I personally hope that some form of direct calorimetry has been used, simply because of the opening that IR emission measurements provide for skeptics to cast doubt on the calculated output. Perhaps it would be wise to reserve judgment until we learn more about the experimental design and results.

      • bachcole

        I’m busted. I am really a troll working for hot-fusionists trying to undermine Rossi and his credibility. (:->)

        Actually, when those conversations that you are referring to took place, I was probably rolling my glazing eyes and skipping over comments that go way too far into technical detail to maintain my interests.

        I still think that there may be issues of the temperature range within which the reaction can occur.

    • Roy O’Neil

      If the ecat will heat water at a lower life cycle cost than any other method, it will be cost effective. Even if its output is only used as boiler feedwater.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    Former Sec of Energy, Gov Bill Richardson, spoke tonight on FoxNews about the need for distributed power generation.

    • BroKeeper

      The attack will come as distributed E-Cats terrorizing McScrooge.

  • Mr. Moho

    Interesting. It might be worth keeping an eye on this.
    Also, in a further update:

    http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=news/politics&id=9387529
    Obama to visit North Carolina State University for event on economy

  • bachcole

    My left brain illustration: Think of the Hawaiian volcano dripping red hot lava into the Pacific Ocean. You’ve seen those pictures. Which one wins, the Pacific Ocean or the lava? If the E-Cat drops below a certain temperature, it MIGHT not have enough heat to continue the process. Remember that the E-Cat needs an electrical input to get started. My thought assumes that the electricity is used primarily or at least partially to generate heat. This, of course, is my semi-educated speculation. (:->)

  • Marc Ellenbroek

    The main difficulty with e-cat in relation to steam production for a generator is, that the E-cat is temperature controlled. The control of the LENR process directly depends on the heat input. That makes the E-cat not very suitable to connect it directly to a steam turbine. A hybrid system could be considered to overcome varying load situations (especially during start-up). Possibly the Brillouin and Defkalion designs are more suitable.

    • bachcole

      I believe that this could be the problem. If I leave wooden matches in my freezer, and then try to light one, will they light? I assume so. But what if they would only light between the temperatures of 85 degrees F and 55 degrees F. Above 85 degrees F they burst into flames spontaneously. And below 55 degrees F they won’t light. They wouldn’t be very practical. No matches would ever be sold in Tucson or Minneapolis. If the E-Cat gets too hot, it runs away. And if it gets too cold, it shuts down. What about that? So many people are getting impatient with Rossi, but what if this is the problem. If so, he has proven that we have a fantastic new energy source but he can’t commercialize it, at least not yet, because of the engineering difficulties.

      • Tom59

        This is when more exhaustive fundamental work would need to come in – to stepwise expand the workable range of operation, tailor the system for specific needs. I hope this day is not too far away (after the second independent testing report?)

      • georgehants

        “…He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken
        up. His work is like that of the planter — for the future. His duty is
        to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He
        lives and labors and hopes.”

        Nikola Tesla

  • Marc Ellenbroek

    The main difficulty with e-cat in relation to steam production for a generator is, that the E-cat is temperature controlled. The control of the LENR process directly depends on the heat input. That makes the E-cat not very suitable to connect it directly to a steam turbine. A hybrid system could be considered to overcome varying load situations (especially during start-up). Possibly the Brillouin and Defkalion designs are more suitable.

    • bachcole

      I believe that this could be the problem. If I leave wooden matches in my freezer, and then try to light one, will they light? I assume so. But what if they would only light between the temperatures of 85 degrees F and 55 degrees F. Above 85 degrees F they burst into flames spontaneously. And below 55 degrees F they won’t light. They wouldn’t be very practical. No matches would ever be sold in Tucson or Minneapolis. If the E-Cat gets too hot, it runs away. And if it gets too cold, it shuts down. What about that? So many people are getting impatient with Rossi, but what if this is the problem. If so, he has proven that we have a fantastic new energy source but he can’t commercialize it, at least not yet, because of the engineering difficulties.

      • Tom59

        This is when more exhaustive fundamental work would need to come in – to stepwise expand the workable range of operation, tailor the system for specific needs. I hope this day is not too far away (after the second independent testing report?)

      • georgehants

        “…He does not expect that his advanced ideas will be readily taken
        up. His work is like that of the planter — for the future. His duty is
        to lay the foundation for those who are to come, and point the way. He
        lives and labors and hopes.”

        Nikola Tesla

    • Paul

      I don’t think that an high-temperature E-Cat is controlled by heat, it would be largely unstable. The mouse should be a nuclear controller, not a thermal one. You have not to be confused by the fact the mouse has a COP, even near to 1. Some of the products of the unkwnown Lenr reactions occurring in the mouse very probably trigger the reactions in the main reactor, or mice.This is the real function of the mouse.

  • Fortyniner

    Spacecraft reaction engines have to use ceramic bearings and lubricants such as graphite, so that they can function at almost any temperature. As power sources spacecraft normally use fuel cells, which must be kept warm in order to function, and this means that they are normally in continuous operation. The same would probably apply to e-cats used in space, although as well as being heavily insulated, these would probably generate electricity by means of thermoelectric converters which would only draw off heat at a limited rate.

    However to make steam, a coolant (water or some other liquid) has to pass over the reactor skin in order to remove large amounts of heat, and it seems possible that this could cool the reactor below the point where the reaction occurs. Its just a question of degree – how much heat you are removing. It is possible that Rossi still has problems in this area.

  • Fortyniner

    I agree that there was a lot wrong with early test methods, that made the results questionable to one degree or another. However these early public tests were performed at a time when Rossi needed to attract interest and support despite the technology being in its infancy, and the situation is now very different.

    It shouldn’t need saying yet again that at this stage, Rossi no longer needs to prove his devices to you or anyone else outside his circle of R&D associates and potential investors. Nevertheless he has subjected his devices to two rounds of completely independent tests, and we will learn the results of the second round soon.

    Who knows – they may even have incorporated something like the air gap system you propose, this time. I personally hope that this is the case, simply because of the opening that radiative measurements provide for skeptics to cast doubt on the measuring methods. Perhaps it would be wise to reserve judgment until we learn more about the experimental design and results.

  • bachcole

    I’m busted. I am really a troll working for hot-fusionists trying to undermine Rossi and his credibility. (:->)

    Actually, when those conversations that you are referring to took place, I was probably rolling my glazing eyes and skipping over comments that go way too far into technical detail to maintain my interests.

    I still think that there may be issues of the temperature range within which the reaction can occur.

  • bachcole

    Bob, Christina brings God into the social aspect of this forum, NOT anything else. Rossi doesn’t. I am just defending Christina’s right to bring God into the social aspect of this forum. That is a huge way from anything that you are talking about.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      I can’t imagine anyone having a problem with the social aspect of it. A blessing from someone is a lovely gesture and for me isn’t the problem at all. But a seemingly innocent phrase like “for God would want us to” is. I cannot literally go to God and ask him if he really would want that. So it’s best not to use arguments based on that.

      If you cannot see that, maybe it’s best to agree to disagree.

      • bachcole

        I see that. I just skip over that sort of thing since it is meaningless and I skip over a lot of things.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          That’s fine then Roger, but you may have noticed that you cannot really expect the same from the others who may not find that meaningless. Anyway, it’s always good to exchange points of view.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    I wonder if they’ve tried controlling the temperature by reducing the pressure of the hydrogen gas in the reactor as it heats up. They probably have.

    • Fortyniner

      Somewhere in the annals, someone mentioned hydrogen pressure modulation. I think it may have been DGT.

      • Marc Ellenbroek

        Would be nice if that is also possible. However, controlling pressure without a flow and in a closed pipe is not easy. Especially not with Hydrogen. You will need some kind of pressure release and you can’t do that to the environment.

        • Fortyniner

          That’s especially the case if a hydride compound is still being used to provide H2 (as it must have been in the crudely sealed hot cat prototypes). I suppose that venting hydrogen might be acceptable if it just passed into a second, larger chamber, and/or was immediately oxidised by some kind of catalysed reaction.

          The venting could take place to an evacuated chamber via a solenoid valve or breakable seal, in which case H2 pressure might be suddenly and drastically reduced.

          • Ivone

            Hydrogen is perfectly safe to release to an open space. It drifts up into the upper atmosphere where it leaks into space.

          • Fortyniner

            So it may be, but the elfin safety people probably wouldn’t see it that way, especially since it would be at about 1,000C as it emerged under high pressure – easily hot enough to spontaneously ignite! There’s also the chance that vented gas might carry out nickel nanoparticles with it – not too good to breathe.

          • Ivone

            If the hydrogen is at 1000C and carrying nickel particles, then I agree with the elfin safety people. Best kept trapped.

          • Ivone

            I retract the former statement.

          • Sandy

            A low-temperature E-Cat could be connected to this turbine (invented by Ridgway Banks) and that combination could produce enough electricity to charge an electric automobile overnight.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKmYqUSDch8&list=PL2TlR2kH5KZ6ozRQrf0-kMlRhNpqCkNAd

          • Alan DeAngelis

            Yeah, because it’s a nuclear reaction hardly any hydrogen is needed. It would be safer than doing a chemical hydrogenation and there’s equipment for that.
            http://www.scimed.co.uk/parr-pressure-vessels/

          • Alan DeAngelis

            PS Hydrogenation of vegetable oils has been carried out on an industrial scale since the 1920s. Tons of hydrogen are used. With a nuclear reaction picograms are consumed (next to nothing).
            http://www.bantransfats.com/abouttransfat.html

        • kdk

          They’ve used lasers to do cooling of Bose-Einstein condensates now.

          http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2013/11/28/3900284.htm

          Bursting laser-cooling at them occasionally or some sort of EM counter-modulation (de-excitation) might be possible too.

          • Fortyniner

            Probably. We’ll find out when they’ve got something even better – perhaps in a decade or so.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Thanks Fortyniner. Yeah, I think there would be fewer hydrogen gas molecules (H2) bouncing around in the chamber to impart their energy to the nickel-hydride bond (like hitting a tuning fork with a hammer).

    • Donk970

      In the context of a pressurized water jacket for steam generation just changing the rate at which water is introduced to the boiler should do a good job of modulating the working temperature. What’s more important is to have a way to quickly SCRAM the reactor in an emergency.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    I wonder if they’ve tried controlling the temperature by reducing the pressure of the hydrogen gas in the reactor as it heats up. They probably have.

    • Somewhere in the annals, someone mentioned hydrogen pressure modulation. I think it may have been DGT.

      • Marc Ellenbroek

        Would be nice if that is also possible. However, controlling pressure without a flow and in a closed pipe is not easy. Especially not with Hydrogen. You will need some kind of pressure release and you can’t do that to the environment.

        • That’s especially the case if a hydride compound is still being used to provide H2 (as it must have been in the crudely sealed hot cat prototypes). I suppose that venting hydrogen might be acceptable if it just passed into a second, larger chamber, and/or was immediately oxidised by passing through a catalytic device.

          The venting could take place to an evacuated chamber via a solenoid valve or breakable seal, in which case H2 pressure could be suddenly and drastically reduced without any release to atmosphere.

          • Ivone

            Hydrogen is perfectly safe to release to an open space. It drifts up into the upper atmosphere where it leaks into space.

          • So it may be, but the elfin safety people probably wouldn’t see it that way, especially since it would be at about 1,000C as it emerged under high pressure – easily hot enough to spontaneously ignite in air! There’s also the chance that vented gas might carry out nickel nanoparticles with it – not too good to breathe.

          • Ivone

            If the hydrogen is at 1000C and carrying nickel particles, then I agree with the elfin safety people. Best kept trapped.

          • Ivone

            I retract the former statement.

          • Alan DeAngelis

            Yeah, because it’s a nuclear reaction hardly any hydrogen is needed. It would be safer than doing a chemical hydrogenation and there’s equipment for that.
            http://www.scimed.co.uk/parr-pressure-vessels/

          • Alan DeAngelis

            PS Hydrogenation of vegetable oils has been carried out on an industrial scale since the 1920s. Tons of hydrogen are used. With a nuclear reaction picograms are consumed (next to nothing).
            http://www.bantransfats.com/abouttransfat.html

        • kdk

          They’ve used lasers to do cooling of Bose-Einstein condensates now.

          http://www.abc.net.au/science/articles/2013/11/28/3900284.htm

          Bursting laser-cooling at them occasionally or some sort of EM counter-modulation (de-excitation) might be possible too.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        Thanks Fortyniner. Yeah, I think there would be fewer hydrogen gas molecules (H2) bouncing around in the chamber to impart their energy to the nickel-hydride bond (like hitting a tuning fork with a hammer).

    • Donk970

      In the context of a pressurized water jacket for steam generation just changing the rate at which water is introduced to the boiler should do a good job of modulating the working temperature. What’s more important is to have a way to quickly SCRAM the reactor in an emergency.

  • BroKeeper

    Maybe. Eventually. Another potential phase of development from the unexpected strong magnetic byproduct. Good point.

  • BroKeeper

    Yes, that is one of the inherent weaknesses of the E-Cat, at least a year ago. Cooling appears to disrupt maintaining a sustainable reaction within. I’m sure this has been the number one issue the team has been developing since. But like you indicted “proof is in the pudding”. I’m hoping it will be delivered with whip cream and a cherry on top.

  • bachcole

    There is a perfect laboratory to compare the socialistic ideal with the capitalist model. The Korean peninsula. The culture on the Korean peninsula is the most closely to uniform as any on Earth. But North Korea followed the socialist ideal and South Korea followed the capitalist modal with all of it’s faults. Neither is perfect or even close to it.

    All those who prefer to live in North Korea rather than South Korea please raise your hands. <> I rest my case.

    • Pedro

      Same experiment has been done in east and west germany… Same outcome.

    • georgehants

      bachcole, your argument is like saying their is only nuclear fission or coal for energy production and we must make our choice.
      Well now you have to open your mind like Mr. Rossi and others to find a new way, that includes all the advantages of the old but none of the drawbacks.
      Why are you so stuck in thinking that says, what we have is all there is, No, we can always move on and improve things if we have the desire to do so.

      • bachcole

        georgehants, you are exactly right, but the change in thought comes first, then the change in political/social structure. See if you can convince the vast majority of people even in the USA if they would like to adopt your ideas.

        • georgehants

          bachcole, seemingly unlike you I will try.
          According to your thinking Mr. Rossi should have given up before he started because change is impossible.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Your assumption North Korea is a socialist state is wrong. It is a dictatorship: “Although the DPRK officially describes itself as a Juche Korean-style socialist republic[11] and elections are held, it is widely considered a dictatorship that has been described as totalitarian and Stalinist[20][2][21] with an elaborate cult of personality around the Kim family, which in 2013 were constitutionally enshrined as the country’s hereditary rulers.”
      No sane person would want to live in North Korea.

      I wonder however what this has got to do with the ongoing discussions? Did I miss something?

      • bachcole

        But this situation that you describe so well in North Korea is always how these overly idealistic experiments end up.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Just re-read the whole discussion but I still don’t see where your example is relevant to.

          It isn’t important anyway, so I will let it rest as will I do myself in an hour or so. Good night, good morning, good afternoon or good evening wherever you are!

          • GreenWin

            The immortal words from the Truman Show.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        OK Zed, how bout Cuba?

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          I could give an answer, but I still don’t know why this discussion.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Socialism is not about “power to the people”, it’s about “controlling people”. Controlling what they can buy, what they can sell, and what they can say on this site.

        • Chris I

          That depends on whether you’re talking about Socialism, or about Socialism.

          “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” LOL

    • Chris I

      I’ll repeat a question already asked.

      What’s this got to do with hooking hot cats up to turbines for thermoelectric generation? I mean, even in the thread about Proia who mentioned China and Korea, it would still be out of place.

    • Iggy Dalrymple
      • GreenWin

        Iggy, humans should be free to choose. Light, or dark. For some, living in a cave may seem a better choice.

        • bachcole

          I don’t mind the dark. I don’t even mind so much living in a cave. My problem with North Korea is some Stalinist jerk beating on me and forcing me to worship Kim ill Dung.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          That’s true, and why they like treebark salad totally escapes me, but they should be free to choose.

    • Donk970

      Think of a country like China or North Korea as being a big single corporation with a big monopoly on everything. The government is the executive team and board of directors. A corporation wants to maximize the profits for the owners so it does what it can to minimize expenses. Feeding and housing people and paying them for work is an expense so, of course, being essentially a big corporation these countries do as little as possible. If Walmart ran the United States we’d look just like North Korea.

      Of course the big advantage a mega-corp like China or North Korea has is that if something like LENR looks like it could give them a competitive advantage in the world market they can pursue it without anyone getting in their way. That’s why any big energy revolution will start in a place like China. Probably not North Korea since the CEO is completely nuts but who knows.

  • bachcole

    There is a perfect laboratory to compare the socialistic ideal with the capitalist model. The Korean peninsula. The culture on the Korean peninsula is the most closely to uniform as any on Earth. But North Korea followed the socialist ideal and South Korea followed the capitalist modal with all of it’s faults. Neither is perfect or even close to it.

    All those who prefer to live in North Korea rather than South Korea please raise your hands. <> I rest my case.

    • Pedro

      Same experiment has been done in east and west germany… Same outcome.

    • georgehants

      bachcole, your argument is like saying there is only nuclear fission or coal for energy production and we must make our choice.
      Well now you have to open your mind like Mr. Rossi and others to find a new way, that includes all the advantages of the old but none of the drawbacks.
      Why are you so stuck in thinking that says, what we have is all there is, No, we can always move on and improve things if we have the desire to do so.
      Now you will have to reopen your case.

      • bachcole

        georgehants, you are exactly right, but the change in thought comes first, then the change in political/social structure. See if you can convince the vast majority of people even in the USA if they would like to adopt your ideas.

        • georgehants

          bachcole, seemingly unlike you I will try.
          According to your thinking Mr. Rossi should have given up before he started because change is impossible.

          • bachcole

            In my comment that you just responded to, I did not say try to convince me. I said try to convince 310 million other people. But your task is much worse than that. If we took a vote on Einstein’s famous E = MC2, we could probably get a majority vote. But E = MC2 requires a change in thought, not character, personality, spiritual development, etc. etc. etc. Many peoples have been convinced of the superior ideas of kum ba ya. But socialism still failed because there was no deeper change. When we have a deeper change to character, personality, spiritual development, then kum ba ya will happen naturally. And it already happens on an individual basis with people like you working to help disadvantaged people in Ghana. The only reason that you don’t have more people helping you is not because they don’t THINK that it is a good idea; it is because they don’t intuit and feel like doing it themselves; their personalities, characters, and spiritual development, etc. are still locked in self-centeredness, thinking that they will become more happy if they have more financial security, more poon-tang, more chocolate, etc. more selfish pursuits.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Your assumption North Korea is a socialist state is wrong. It is a dictatorship: “Although the DPRK officially describes itself as a Juche Korean-style socialist republic[11] and elections are held, it is widely considered a dictatorship that has been described as totalitarian and Stalinist[20][2][21] with an elaborate cult of personality around the Kim family, which in 2013 were constitutionally enshrined as the country’s hereditary rulers.”
      No sane person would want to live in North Korea.

      I wonder however what this has got to do with the ongoing discussions? Did I miss something?

      • bachcole

        But this situation that you describe so well in North Korea is always how these overly idealistic experiments end up.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Just re-read the whole discussion but I still don’t see where your example is relevant to.

          It isn’t important anyway, so I will let it rest as will I do myself in an hour or so. Good night, good morning, good afternoon or good evening wherever you are!

          • bachcole

            It is very easy to lose the meaning in a detailed and involved and emotion discussion. Let’s just drop it.

          • GreenWin

            The immortal words from the Truman Show.

      • Iggy Dalrymple
        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          I could give an answer, but I still don’t know why this discussion.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Socialism is not about “power to the people”, it’s about “controlling people”. Controlling what they can buy, what they can sell, and what they can say on this site.

        • Chris, Italy

          That depends on whether you’re talking about Socialism, or about Socialism.

          “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.” LOL

    • Chris, Italy

      I’ll repeat a question already asked.

      What’s this got to do with hooking hot cats up to turbines for thermoelectric generation? I mean, even in the thread about Proia who mentioned China and Korea, it would still be out of place.

    • Iggy Dalrymple
      • GreenWin

        Iggy, humans should be free to choose. Light, or dark. For some, living in a cave may seem a better choice.

        • bachcole

          I don’t mind the dark. I don’t even mind so much living in a cave. My problem with North Korea is some Stalinist jerk beating on me and forcing me to worship Kim ill Dung.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          That’s true, and why they like treebark salad totally escapes me, but they should be free to choose.

    • Donk970

      Think of a country like China or North Korea as being a big single corporation with a big monopoly on everything. The government is the executive team and board of directors. A corporation wants to maximize the profits for the owners so it does what it can to minimize expenses. Feeding and housing people and paying them for work is an expense so, of course, being essentially a big corporation these countries do as little as possible. If Walmart ran the United States we’d look just like North Korea.

      Of course the big advantage a mega-corp like China or North Korea has is that if something like LENR looks like it could give them a competitive advantage in the world market they can pursue it without anyone getting in their way. That’s why any big energy revolution will start in a place like China. Probably not North Korea since the CEO is completely nuts but who knows.

  • Sandy

    A low-temperature E-Cat could be connected to this turbine (invented by Ridgway Banks) and that combination could produce enough electricity to charge an electric automobile overnight.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKmYqUSDch8&list=PL2TlR2kH5KZ6ozRQrf0-kMlRhNpqCkNAd

    • Wholewitt

      This seems hopeless for an e-cat. Development was started in 1973, if it was viable we would have had these low temp converters everywhere by now and we don’t. Cyclone Power has a waste heat converter that is very compact and can produce up to 10KW. I think the issue with using Nitinol is the low temperature difference which is basically low energy density.

  • Jonnyb

    I wonder how they are achieving self sustain mode, I would of thought a power feedback loop from a turbine?

    • Fortyniner

      According to rossi, the hybrid e-cat he is working on self-sustains for 75% of the operating cycle, and needs powering from an external source at a modest level for the remaining 25%. I don’t think we have any information on the duration of the complete cycle. He has not yet used the output power to drive any kind of generator, so self-looping is not yet possible.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        How about this for a 2 reactor system (mouse and e-cat): I wonder if he could use the mouse in 25/75 self-sustaining mode also. Then if one could time the moments the mouse needs to drive the e-cat in non-sustaining mode (25% of the time) and visa verse, you would only ever need electricity for every start-up. After that it would be self sustaining like your 4 reactor idea.

        Another idea would be the take say three mouse cats, each on a little bit bigger and install them in serial mode. Assuming mouses having a COP of 6, you could start with say 10 watt electrical => 60 watt thermal output for the first mouse, 60 watt thermal input => 360 watt thermal output for the second mouse, 360 watt thermal input => 2160 watt thermal output for the third mouse. So you only need 10 watt electrical energy to generate 2160 watt thermal energy. That could be enough to drive a full hot-cat. Now apart from the very simplistic example, this just can’t be right. What mistake am I making here?

        • Fortyniner

          The idea of ‘Daisy chaining’ in this way has come up on several occasions, and maybe Rossi used the concept in his ‘cat and mouse’ arrangment. I’m sure that even now, his team will only be at the beginning of exploring all possible configurations.

    • georgehants

      GreenWin I have replied to your answer to me on previous page (bringing Cold Fusion forward )would appreciate your thoughts sometime.
      Best

  • Jonnyb

    I wonder how they are achieving self sustain mode, I would of thought a power feedback loop from a turbine?

    • According to Rossi, the hybrid e-cat he is working on self-sustains for 75% of the operating cycle, and needs a modest amount of electrical power input from an external source for the remaining 25%. I don’t think we have any information on the overall COP or the duration of the complete cycle. He has apparently not yet used the output power to drive any kind of generator, so self-looping isn’t possible as yet.

      If that’s correct, then it should be possible to construct a 4-reactor system that would not need electrical power except for initial start-up. Heat would simply be transferred from a self-sustaining reactor to a ‘resting’ one using a suitable mechanical arrangement of thermal conductors or some other heat transfer medium, making the system as a whole permanently self-sustaining. If that isn’t possible, then it may be because at least some of the electrical power is required by some kind of modulated ‘driver’ (current flow, arcing, EM or RF stimulation etc) that is the central secret of Rossi’s e-cat.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        How about this for a 2 reactor system (mouse and e-cat): I wonder if he could use the mouse in 25/75 self-sustaining mode also. Then if one could time the moments the mouse needs to drive the e-cat in non-sustaining mode (25% of the time) and visa verse, you would only ever need electricity for every start-up. After that it would be self sustaining like your 4 reactor idea.

        Another idea would be the take say three mouse cats, each on a little bit bigger and install them in serial mode. Assuming mouses having a COP of 6, you could start with say 10 watt electrical => 60 watt thermal output for the first mouse, 60 watt thermal input => 360 watt thermal output for the second mouse, 360 watt thermal input => 2160 watt thermal output for the third mouse. So you only need 10 watt electrical energy to generate 2160 watt thermal energy. That could be enough to drive a full hot-cat. Now apart from the very simplistic example, this just can’t be right. What mistake am I making here?

        • The idea of ‘Daisy chaining’ in this way has come up on several occasions on this and other forums – maybe such discussions inspired Rossi to build his ‘cat and mouse’ arrangment. I’m sure that even now, his team will only be at the beginning of exploring all possible configurations.

    • georgehants

      GreenWin I have replied to your answer to me on previous page (bringing Cold Fusion forward) would appreciate your thoughts sometime.
      Best

  • marcsimus

    How can any one not read this as damning and disappointing. After all we’ve been through the inventor says that the current “results might prove negative”. That’s the real story here. Rossi does not believe in his own systems. OMG what a colossal waste of every ones time if Rossi’s intimation come to pass. Moreover, Rossi voices this possibility routinely. Quite a contrast to his early days.

    • bachcole

      marcsimus, the E-Cat IS a success in that LENR+ has already been proven with the Levi, Essen et. al. May 2013 Report. Rossi’s current configuration could still be a failure in that it won’t withstand the cooling effect of the cold water entering a boiler OR some other problem. All such a failure means is that Rossi will have to find some other way to implement LENR+ or Defkalion or Brillouin or someone else will beat Rossi to market. It is not and cannot be a failure for LENR+ since LENR+ has already been proven.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Heat to electricity, Rossi does not have to know anything about Turbines

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Heat to electricity, Rossi does not have to know anything about Turbines

  • GreenWin

    It needs to be regularly emphasized. The generation of electricity from a new hydrogen reaction has, and continues to demand rigorous honesty in the form of “Informed Consent.” Unless, or until this basic human right is addressed, the demand for human acquiescence is flawed. Abide one’s own scripture?

  • GreenWin

    It needs to be regularly emphasized. The generation of electricity from a new hydrogen reaction has, and continues to demand rigorous honesty in the form of “Informed Consent.” Unless, or until this basic human right is addressed, the demand for human acquiescence is flawed. Abide one’s own scripture?

  • LCD

    The fact that he keeps saying the results could also be negative is really disturbing. Is he saying that this whole thing could be a waste of time or that variant might not work? Just weird.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      If they were really negative Rossi would not be posting, period.

  • LCD

    The fact that he keeps saying the results could also be negative is really disturbing. Is he saying that this whole thing could be a waste of time or that variant might not work? Just weird.

    • bachcole

      Please, have a little faith and get some perspective. He is very close to the action and the financing. It is very important to him that the E-Cat not only run for 4 days and produce gobs of excess energy but also that it should not croak when it gets splashed with a little cold water. He needs it to be able to run turbines. That is not so important to you and me because we already know that LENR+ is real and we don’t have any money in the game. He is not talking about the entire staircase failing. He is talking about the next step failing. Understand?

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      If they were really negative Rossi would not be posting, period.