Conversation with Justin Church about the 'H-Cat'

I spent a very interesting hour or so this evening talking on the phone with Justin Church about his ‘H-Cat’ system which came to my attention earlier today. I have spent some time trying to learn as much as I can about the experiments he is doing, and after talking with Justin I have a clearer idea of what he is doing, and what his hopes are. Below are some of the main points we covered in our conversation. Justin, if you read this and need to make any corrections, please do so!

I was interested in the setup he is using in the video I posted earlier of Justin injecting HHO gas into the catalytic converter. These are the main specs.

Power supply: 400 W power supply orignally intended for ham radio. 12 volts DC connected to grid.

HHO gas production: Justin Church’s ‘LiL Water Torch 1.0’ electrolysis system (can be seen here)

Catalytic converter: a used catalytic converter (didn’t get the brand). Justin said it is much better to used a new cc as there is a carbon build-up in the used ones that needs to be scraped away for the experiment to operate well.

Safety system: Justin said that he uses a water-filled tube (a ‘bubbler’) to run the gas through, and also a ‘flashback arrester’ which is a porous piece of plastic or metal (can’t remember which)

I think Justin mentioned that the flashback arrester acted as a diffusor for the gas, so that it is spread out when it hits the substrate in the catalytic converter. The surface area of active material inside the cc is about 8-12 square inches.

In Justin’s ‘H-Cat’ system, the gas is injected onto the substrate of catalytic converter from a distance of between 3-6 inches. The gas is ‘raw’, meaning it is not ignited into a flame. However when it hits the substrate, it causes it to produce heat. Justin has said he has measured temperatures of over 900 F.

I asked Justin the longest time that the experiment had run, producing heat, and he said 6-8 hours.

He mentioned there were times when he reduced the gas flow, but the temperature of the cc did not decrease.

I asked him how much it might cost a person to get the necessary equipment to run this experiment, and he estimated around $800 if you bought everything at retail prices — considerably less if you used homemade and/or used equipment.

Justin said his motivation for doing this work is so he doesn’t have to pay for propane or electricity to heat his home, and find a way to help humanity with this technology. He says he believes it’s time that people in the LENR community (business and science) should stop being so secretive and so concerned with making money. He wants to see more people involved in testing this system; so far he has been disappointed with the lack of interest.

I brought up the subject of safety. Justin said that the bubbler and flasback arrester help with safety.

My takeway from all I have learned about this system today: This seems to be an open-source, possibly LENR system that mechanically- and experimentally-inclined people might be interested in trying to replicate, since it uses off-the shelf parts that can be obtained relatively inexpensively. I think it is important to bring up the issue of safety. Proper safety precautions should be used in any experiment, and experimenters should carefully study all safety issues surrounding this particular experiment, and take all necessary precautions.

I have created a new category in the E-Cat World Forum called ‘H-Cat Topics’ where readers might like to discuss issues pertaining to this system, including reports and results of experimentation.

  • Owen Geiger

    Way to go Frank. This is exciting. Assuming the claimed measurements are true (I have no reason to disbelieve Justin, just saying), can anyone explain the heat output based on standard chemistry and physics? Is there another explanation other than LENR? What else could it be?

    • Mr. Moho

      That is the question.
      Any chemist or otherwise well versed people in catalysis should be able to answer whether this apparently anomalous heating reaction is actually expected and not surprising.

  • Owen Geiger

    Way to go Frank. This is exciting. Assuming the claimed measurements are true (I have no reason to disbelieve Justin, just saying), can anyone explain the heat output based on standard chemistry and physics? Is there another explanation other than LENR? What else could it be?

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    I was informed by a hands on experimenter, a non-academic, but a highly educated electro-chemical engineer whom I have the greatest respect for, that HHO only exists in the unpaired state for milliseconds. So maybe HHO is a factor in the eCat, where it’s immediately embedded in the nickel lattice, but not a factor the H-Cat. That’s not to say that H2 + O isn’t operative in the H-Cat.

    • Neal Ward

      How can hho stay unpaired for milliseconds, I have stored it for hours , and it has remained unpaired.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        How do you know when hydrogen is HH vs H2 ?
        How do you know that it has remained unpaired?
        I’m not arguing, just asking.

        • Neal Ward

          I have no way of knowing if the 2 atoms are sharing electrons (joined or not ), Most people seem to think that the hho gas will recombine to water H2O,
          I was conveying that the hho gas will remain explosive for a long time, leading me to that conclusion.

        • Neal Ward

          Have you seen our video’s , they are pretty much self explanatory…We don’t hide anything, we want everyone to have this technology for free…I have uploaded quite a few videos so far….Oh what a beautiful world it would be…..

    • Andreas Moraitis

      HHO gas is a mixture of H2 and O2. Undoubltedly not the ideal terminology, but “H2O2 gas” would be still more misleading.

  • Lou Pagnucco

    Perhaps related to the hypothesis described in the following Lattice Energy LLC presentation?

    Low Energy Neutron Reactions (LENRs) in Automotive Catalytic Converters
    Are “green” LENRs occurring in common devices?
    http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/WL/slides/20100625LatticeEnergySlides.pdf

    • Justin Church

      Very wonderful pdf. I never knew about this. Sort of backs up the concept of the H-Cat. Thank you for sharing this. I posted it over at the H-Cat forums for the guys to review…

    • david55

      I don’t believe in Widom-Larsen Theory for me randell mills theory is most compelling theory to explain what is happening in lenr
      because of its other prediction and success like prediction of expansion accelerating of universe (dark energy) before that even being discovered and explanation for dark matter (hydrino) and millsian software based on mills theory that in itself could be biggest evidence that mills theory is right . and independent discovery of hydrino in 2009 ‘Ultra-dense deuterium’

      Ultra-dense deuterium
      http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/05/university-of-gothenberg-making.html
      http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/01/winterberg-on-ultradense-deuterium.html

      • Justin Church

        No bother to me what the theory is and who’s theory is correct, can I use it as a heater or not? Yes I can, and yes I will lol

        • david55

          You right, but with wrong theory skeptic can debunk us as crackpot .that’s annoying

          • Justin Church

            Don’t you realize at this point in time anyone that follows LENR research is a crackpot not to mention 95 percent of the people on the planet have never heard of it. Build something tangible that works and the rest will follow. If you build it they will come….lol

          • david55

            It is not all about skeptic most impotant part about having a correct theory is that we ourself know what is process
            and how we can optimize it..

          • friendlyprogrammer

            LENR is being done by unrelated labs on at least 20 fronts. They all claim to have working LENR.

            Mitsubishi, Toyota, NASA, Brillouin, Miley, Patterson Cell, BLP, Rossi, Piantelli, Hagelstein, Athanor device, Celani, MFMP, just to name a dozen.

            One could become convinced of LENR just by listening to NASA’s Chief Research Scientist at Langley Dennis Bushnell, or from listenning to ant of the above make adamant LENR claims.

            There are theories, but nothing that makes a lot of sense yet.

            Pons and Fleischmann did perform a nuclear reaction and Fleischmann went to his grave unvindicated, but we know the reaction is there.

            I find it odd that you would dismiss LENR so outright when you yourself are involved in energy research that 99.99999999999% of the world has never heard of.

            LENR may not be stable or perfected in many cases, but the reaction must be real as the alternative would be complicit fraud across the board within many companies and universities. It would not make much sense.

            Good luck with your device however.

          • david55

            friendlyprogrammer
            Justin himself believe in lenr but his point is that from mainstream science point of view we all are crackpot.

          • friendlyprogrammer

            i see. oops then.

            @ Greenwin,
            Yes. thanks for adding those. I did say more than 20 and listed 13, but I try to stick with ones i know can be googled with LENR. I mentioned NASA and Dennis Bushnell.

            I do not grasp why various US agencies would all work separately on the same project.

          • GreenWin

            You and me both fp… The more we see behind some of these curtains the more confused this area becomes. From what I can gather, it’s not just US agencies that are highly competitive. Compartmentalization of research often means different units do the same research but are unaware of each other – due to security issues. This duplication of effort is counterproductive to taxpayers – but may be necessary in defense related projects.

          • GreenWin

            You left out DARPA, NASA GRC, Italian Energy Dept. ENEA, EPRI, ELFORSK/Vattenfall, USAF, US Navy, and other ABC Agencies in Asia, EU, US, Russia. There is a lot of effort going here now – though most efforts are cloaked in secrecy by Pinky and the Brain thoughts of “Trying to take over the world.”

        • Mr. Moho

          You can certainly use it as a heater if you wish. But is it actually advantageous to? You probably need to know before investing more time and money on it. That’s why I suggested before that people who already have some experience in measuring heat, like those from MFMP, should test this.

        • Job001

          Justin, since you like to experiment, here is a suggestion. It is cheap to build an insulated “chimney box” flow calorimeter. Foil face coated house insulation is cheap. Measure the air temperature in at the bottom and out at the top(suggest accurate mercury bulb thermometers). Put the cat hearer and an electric heater inside.
          Test temperatures with cat on, cat off, heater on, heater off, both on, both off. Switch thermometers, test again. Wait three times longer than it takes thermometers to adjust. Heat output is roughly proportional to temperature rise. This setup would be ok for rough estimates of how much extra heat is produced. Graph the results.
          Do your testing like a skeptic so you don’t fool yourself.
          Calculate COP.
          Good Luck.

    • Sanjeev

      Very valuable information. Thanks. This increases the chances of lenr happening in catalytic converters.
      The slides say that a temperature of 600-800 C and electric charge on the monolith are favorable for lenr. Pure H instead of HHO might also help (but dangerous). A heat gradient and some pressure also helps. This should be tried. Perhaps Rossi and DGT are already doing it.

      The slides are dated June 2010. Is it possible that Rossi took an inspiration from this info and experimented with a cat converter ?, heating it with resistive wires and applying a pulsed high voltage to the monolith. A good reason to call it an E-Cat. Very amusing to think of that …..

      • david55

        ”The slides say that a temperature of 600-800 C and electric charge on the monolith are favorable for lenr.”
        This show my point about having a correct theory and how this paper can be misleading .there is no need for
        electric charge or temperature of 600-800 C to lenr happen you can see this in Justin Church video .they just see
        some Anomaly and meltdown in Catalytic Converters and based on their own theory conclude that how it happened that is totally wrong and never bother to conduct experiment to see if it is correct.

  • Lou Pagnucco

    Perhaps related to the hypothesis described in the following Lattice Energy LLC presentation?

    Low Energy Neutron Reactions (LENRs) in Automotive Catalytic Converters
    Are “green” LENRs occurring in common devices?
    http://newenergytimes.com/v2/sr/WL/slides/20100625LatticeEnergySlides.pdf

    • Justin Church

      Very wonderful pdf. I never knew about this. Sort of backs up the concept of the H-Cat. Thank you for sharing this. I posted it over at the H-Cat forums for the guys to review…

    • david55

      I don’t believe in Widom-Larsen Theory for me randell mills theory is most compelling theory to explain what is happening in lenr
      because of its other prediction and success like prediction of expansion accelerating of universe (dark energy) before that even being discovered and explanation for dark matter (hydrino) and millsian software based on mills theory that in itself could be biggest evidence that mills theory is right . and independent discovery of hydrino in 2009 ‘Ultra-dense deuterium’

      Ultra-dense deuterium
      http://nextbigfuture.com/2009/05/university-of-gothenberg-making.html
      http://nextbigfuture.com/2010/01/winterberg-on-ultradense-deuterium.html

      • Justin Church

        No bother to me what the theory is and who’s theory is correct, can I use it as a heater or not? Yes I can, and yes I will lol

        • david55

          You right, but with wrong theory skeptic can debunk us as crackpot .that’s annoying

          • Justin Church

            Don’t you realize at this point in time anyone that follows LENR research is a crackpot not to mention 95 percent of the people on the planet have never heard of it. Build something tangible that works and the rest will follow. If you build it they will come….lol

          • david55

            It is not all about skeptic most impotant part about having a correct theory is that we ourself know what is process
            and how we can optimize it..

          • friendlyprogrammer

            LENR is being done by unrelated labs on at least 20 fronts. They all claim to have working LENR.

            Mitsubishi, Toyota, NASA, Brillouin, Miley, Patterson Cell, BLP, Rossi, Piantelli, Hagelstein, Athanor device, Celani, MFMP, just to name a dozen.

            One could become convinced of LENR just by listening to NASA’s Chief Research Scientist at Langley Dennis Bushnell, or from listenning to ant of the above make adamant LENR claims.

            There are theories, but nothing that makes a lot of sense yet.

            Pons and Fleischmann did perform a nuclear reaction and Fleischmann went to his grave unvindicated, but we know the reaction is there.

            LENR may not be stable or perfected in many cases, but the reaction must be real as the alternative would be complicit fraud across the board within many companies and universities. It would not make much sense.

            Good luck with your device Church.

          • david55

            friendlyprogrammer
            Justin himself believe in lenr but his point is that from mainstream science point of view we all are crackpot.

          • friendlyprogrammer

            i see. oops then.

            @ Greenwin,
            Yes. thanks for adding those. I did say more than 20 and listed 13, but I try to stick with ones i know can be googled with LENR. I mentioned NASA and Dennis Bushnell.

            I do not grasp why various US agencies would all work separately on the same project.

          • Christina

            Inter-agency rivalry?

            Although, more likely, they all started this ignorant of the others’ work and later it became inter-agency rivalry.

          • GreenWin

            You and me both fp… The more we see behind some of these curtains the more confused this area becomes. From what I can gather, it’s not just US agencies that are highly competitive. Compartmentalization of research often means different units do the same research but are unaware of each other – due to security issues. This duplication of effort is counterproductive to taxpayers – but may be necessary in defense related projects.

          • GreenWin

            You left out DARPA, NASA GRC, Italian Energy Dept. ENEA, EPRI, ELFORSK/Vattenfall, USAF, US Navy, and other ABC Agencies in Asia, EU, US, Russia. There is a lot of effort going here now – though most efforts are cloaked in secrecy by Pinky and the Brain thoughts of “Trying to take over the world.”

          • homersage

            Yes, in addition, these trans-national corporations are increasingly
            beholden to government and they know how the game is played. It is naïve to
            think otherwise.

            One only has to look at the pace of change in the technological realm and
            ask themselves why we are still using 100 year old technology as energy for so
            many processes. By that logic we should still be using the telegraph to
            communicate!

            The patent system is one of the tools
            used to suppress:

            35 U.S.C. 181 – Secrecy of certain inventions and withholding of patent

            http://www.gpo.gov/fdsys/granule/USCODE-2011-title35/USCODE-2011-title35-partII-chap17-sec181/content-detail.html

            I have read that over 5,000 patents have had this code applied to them and disappeared.
            If that does not work they have more nefarious means to maintain control.

            Another litmus is Nikola Tesla’s story; Wardenclyffe Tower? Please go beyond
            Wikipedia if you wish to learn more. Why would a man that gave so much to
            humanity be relegated to obscurity the margins of history while others were credited
            with his contributions in the mainstream?

            The rabbit hole goes very deep… it’s time “We the People” wake up from the
            “programing” on the TeeVeee and take back our power, pun intended.

            We need to think critically and overcome the normalcy bias and cognitive
            dissonance so prevalent with “mainstream” citizens. These theories are no
            longer conspiracy.

            Honestly, how can anyone be so naïve to think that vested interest do not
            conspire (to breath together) to maintain their interests! The media has
            programmed everyone to denounce “conspiracy theorists” lest they be judged by
            their peers as a nut job. The “theories” are to a large degree fact.

            Free energy is a game changer… I agree with Justin; it needs to be open
            source and the sooner the better as the technological grip of tyranny is
            closing fast. Hi NSA…

          • The Making Of The Term “Conspiracy Theorist”

            http://personaladvisory.com/2013/08/20/the-making-of-the-term-conspiracy-theorist/

            “Recent studies by psychologists and social scientists in the US and UK suggest that contrary to mainstream media stereotypes, those labeled “conspiracy theorists” appear to be saner than those who accept the official versions of contested events:”

            http://beforeitsnews.com/conspiracy-theories/2013/07/cia-invention-of-the-phrase-conspiracy-theory-to-block-questions-on-jfks-assassination-is-one-of-the-most-successful-propaganda-initiatives-of-all-time-2453052.html

          • homersage

            Thanks for the validation Fortyniner. It takes much courage to swim against the mainstream in an attempt to convince others that the golden age is upstream of the manufactured current they are all unknowingly floating down-chasing all the “bright and shiny hings” placed before them, in a state of manufactured fear (terrorism), separation/division (religion/politics/race//class), and scarcity (suppressed free energy and cures for disease).

            Not that courage is necessary to do this in the comment section of a website, but certainly with family and friends. It can be a pretty lonely journey, but it’s getting easier as the mass awakening gathers pace. I have been on it for going on ten years now after concluding 911 is not what we have been told. The collapse of building 7 makes it easy. Few even remember it fell as though in a controlled demolition-despite the fact that it was not impacted by an airliner. The war on “terror” was the objective all along. Search “Major General Smedley Butler, war is a racket”-very telling.

            I can give many search terms for those who wish to inform themselves and draw their own conclusions…

            If we want to take back our power it begins with our family, friends and neighbors. Then our community and local governments. They prefer we took to the streets-this is NOT the answer. All we really need to do is opt out of the system by removing our consent. Simple to conceive, difficult to do, but the stakes are so high we must.

            Justin is trying to take back his power and I salute him for having the courage to do so.

        • Guest
    • Sanjeev

      Very valuable information. Thanks. This increases the chances of lenr happening in catalytic converters.
      The slides say that a temperature of 600-800 C and electric charge on the monolith are favorable for lenr. Pure H instead of HHO might also help (but dangerous). A heat gradient and some pressure also helps. This should be tried. Perhaps Rossi and DGT are already doing it.

      The slides are dated June 2010. Is it possible that Rossi took an inspiration from this info and experimented with a cat converter ?, heating it with resistive wires and applying a pulsed high voltage to the monolith. A good reason to call it an E-Cat. Very amusing to think of that …..

      • david55

        ”The slides say that a temperature of 600-800 C and electric charge on the monolith are favorable for lenr.”
        This show my point about having a correct theory and how this paper can be misleading .there is no need for
        electric charge or temperature of 600-800 C to lenr happen you can see this in Justin Church video .they just see
        some Anomaly and meltdown in Catalytic Converters and based on their own theory conclude that how it happened that is totally wrong and never bother to conduct experiment to see if it is correct.

  • Mr. Moho

    Here’s a short list of youtube channels of people who attempted replicating this “H-Cat” experiment and showing experimental results on video over the past few weeks:

    http://www.youtube.com/user/delvis11
    http://www.youtube.com/user/hydrofuelincanada
    http://www.youtube.com/user/woopyjump
    http://www.youtube.com/user/jdcproducts (this is Justin Church’s channel)

    I would like to see a proper energy balance calculation and output energy measurements made though.
    Also, again, if from a conventional chemistry standpoint this is actually not an anomalous reaction at all. It might turn out to simply appear that way for non-experts.

    • david55

      You now become part of “Peanut Gallery” lol .this is very easy experiment to conduct, do it yourself .more than anything it is fun and exciting.

      • Mr. Moho

        Anybody can try, but not just anybody can perform this experiment a scientifically proper manner. Also, it’s might not be that inexpensive to conduct for people who don’t already have the right skills, tools and/or don’t have ready access to a small workshop to physically do it. That’s why I would like to see experts do it in my place. To clarify, I’m not implying that I want only people from eminent institutions to validate this. Such people would likely dismiss this as a simple curiosity/pseudoscience to not be bothered with.

    • Mr. Moho

      The french swiss guy with the channel named “woopyjump” also participates in this forum here:
      http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/16500-hho-gas-injected-into-catalytic-converter-yields-extreme-heat-lenr-we-dont-know.html

  • Job001

    Justin, since you like to experiment, here is a suggestion. It is cheap to build an insulated “chimney box” flow calorimeter. Foil face coated house insulation is cheap. Measure the air temperature in at the bottom and out at the top(suggest accurate mercury bulb thermometers). Put the cat hearer and an electric heater inside.
    Test temperatures with cat on, cat off, heater on, heater off, both on, both off. Switch thermometers, test again. Wait three times longer than it takes thermometers to adjust. Heat output is roughly proportional to temperature rise. This setup would be ok for rough estimates of how much extra heat is produced. Graph the results.
    Do your testing like a skeptic so you don’t fool yourself.
    Calculate COP.
    Good Luck.

  • david55

    Guys first priority must be safety we don’t know what exactly is happening in this process and there is high probability that you
    put yourself in danger by exposing to unknown radiation in this experiment so a Geiger counters is first thing that you must have http://www.gammascout.com/.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      I second that. LENR has killed in experiments, and Michael McKubre still has glass embedded in his face from that blast.

      Please be careful. The above post warns of radiation, but explosions can occur at high temperatures.

    • Neal Ward

      Thats a nice counter, but we are amatuer Garage people , or so we are called ,
      we both have a family to provide for, we only have very little money left over after the system
      cleans us out each and every month.

      We will get there , just takes a lot longer than these so called professional labs with dirty investment money.

      • friendlyprogrammer

        Geiger counters can be rented. It also does not hurt to be conscious of claimed radioactivity by others and have lead shields. i.e. The ecat emits low gamma (slightly above normal room levels) but Rossi put plenty of lead shielding on earlier models.

  • david55

    Guys first priority must be safety we don’t know what exactly is happening in this process and there is high probability that you
    put yourself in danger by exposing to unknown radiation in this experiment so a Geiger counters is first thing that you must have http://www.gammascout.com/.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      I second that. LENR has killed in experiments, and Michael McKubre still has glass embedded in his face from that blast.

      Please be careful. The above post warns of radiation, but explosions can occur at high temperatures.

    • Neal Ward

      Thats a nice counter, but we are amatuer Garage people , or so we are called ,
      we both have a family to provide for, we only have very little money left over after the system
      cleans us out each and every month.

      We will get there , just takes a lot longer than these so called professional labs with dirty investment money.

      • friendlyprogrammer

        Geiger counters can be rented. It also does not hurt to be conscious of claimed radioactivity by others and have lead shields. i.e. The ecat emits low gamma (slightly above normal room levels) but Rossi put plenty of lead shielding on earlier models.

  • RKTect

    From Mr Moho: ‘That’s why I suggested before that people who already have some experience in measuring heat, like those from MFMP, should test this.’

    Most intelligent comment so far!

    • Guest

      ..

      • Justin Church

        I agree. The past six months I have become hip to the game that is being played out by most of these so called “cold fusion” research groups. It seems to me to be more of a dog and pony show. MFMP may not be funded by the government but they have sunk a ton of donated and invested money into a tiny whiny wire cell. Not very impressive and not very useful other than taking some measurements. It all seems to be a grand science experiment with no motivation to do anything with the technology other than probe it with thousands of dollars of testing equipment that was bought with donated money from the people. People need to wake up and realize these groups are not in it to build us useful devices. It seems to me they are only in it to waste as much money as possible and to ohh and ahh the public with the fancy tests. No meat on the bone with any of them. As I said before none of the groups are interested in what I’m trying to do with the technology. What do they need a heater for? the gullible people or the government pays their heating bills, all they have to do is wake up, go the lab then poke and prod the reactors for years on end. Ain’t nothing changed but the rent. You want that fusion heater or boiler, your going to have to build it yourself and stop giving your money and time to these people.

        • Bob Greenyer

          Dear Justin,

          I already suggested a few days ago we would consider putting metrics on the best configuration your (and your co-researchers) valuable work can suggest to be tested. We are only doing this to put definite reality to the claims of researchers in this space, we want a better future for our kids. We have done research into nano powders, plasma, rock crushing, CR-39 experiments in addition to Celani’s wire in our short 16 month history. Part of our purpose is to stimulate others to research openly, we have said from the beginning, we don’t care how or who does this, just that it does get done and the people can start reaping the benefits. When it is openly proved, there is a wall of money waiting to invest. You are doing great stuff!

          As ever we would open the design of any experiment up to public scrutiny before any money was committed, all of the experience your group could bring to ensure the best results possible would be awesome. We view the equipment we have bought with public donations as public property, we don’t own it, the MFMP does. Even still, consumables cost money and so there will be a cost (over and above donated time) to running effective and accurate tests. If you have an expert near our site in Minnesota or Southern France, then it would be really good to have them run the experiments for a few weeks or a month – they could then appreciate the nature of the people donating their time to the project. We might even be able to provide accommodation for free to the individual also.

          We are having a group meeting tomorrow and will discuss what we can do to assist this research.

          • Justin Church

            Forgive me for being cynical about the entire research community but this is not a game we are playing. Real people are dying and suffering while the research labs can only perform bench-top experiments and crunch numbers using high dollar fancy equipment. You of all people should know how long this research has been going on. I can provide documentation to suggest it goes back 60+ years. I also know trillions of dollars have been used to do it which was stolen from the American people in the form of taxes or stolen from other countries the American Military likes to invade. The “Data” already exists and all the heavy hitters in the corporate and government side of this research already “KNOW” its a reality. They already know it works, and they already know how to implement it, they already know how to make it safe. I am an engineer myself and I’m tired of waiting around for everyone to crunch numbers. Its time for the research labs to start thinking about how to install the reactors into useful product line. Heaters, boilers, steam engines, electrical generators ect. I am fed up with it. If I can build this stuff out of junk yard parts to be sure you guys and everyone else can do something amazing with all that money and equipment. You guys have my fusion heater on probes and I want to use it now. Its not fair and its highly disappointing.

          • Adam Lepczak

            I think Bob is agreeing with you Justin, but the facts that in order to start “building stuff” you need to attach a price tag to it and the specific ROI for the end users. You have build something special that caught the attention of the community. I think that with a little bit of cooperation on everybody’s end (incl. you) all of us will be able to enjoy a new, interesting project with a great potential. Work with Bob and his team, they’re good people and on your side man!

          • Justin Church

            I hope your right and I hope Bob is sincere. As you can probably tell from my comments I am a really bitter person when it comes to this research. Seems like its been going on too long to still be locked up inside the laboratories. I’m not concerned what people say about me or how I am portrayed. I am concerned about the people on this planet that need these technologies. If I have to get the parts out of the junk yard to build the same technology and tell everyone else how to do it, I will. I want peace and prosperity for everyone.

  • guga

    I think these experiments are difficult. You would need a good calorimetry to test for overunity. It is not surprising that HHO gas heats up a catalytic converter. That’s what a catalytic converter is for: to catalyze the transformation of chemicals into their most stable form. It will make H20 from HHO gas and release heat.

    • Mr. Moho

      True, but if you think about it, most LENR experiments aren’t that different. You’ve got the H2 (or D2), a catalytic surface, some form of input energy applied. Then somehow magic happens and you get more output energy than the input.

  • guga

    I think these experiments are difficult. You would need a good calorimetry to test for overunity. It is not surprising that HHO gas heats up a catalytic converter. That’s what a catalytic converter is for: to catalyze the transformation of chemicals into their most stable form. It will make H20 from HHO gas and release heat.

    • Herb Gillis

      Why not just eliminate the O2 and use only H2? Is there still indication of excess heat? Run some tests with the CC pre-heated to various temperatures. Or; steadily increase the ratio of H2 to O2 in the existing system until it is 100% H2.

    • Guest
  • friendlyprogrammer

    Very interesting. I viewed some of the HHO videos by Church and others. Does anybody have a more explanatory video link or PDF explaining what is occurring. I can only garner so much from “Yup! That’s an engine.”. Thanks.

    • Mr. Moho

      I’m not sure what you watched, but I think for the time being, when looking for HHO info, you should disregard videos discussing about applying this to cars and focus on those about the simplest implementation, which is also the closest to current LENR claims: a heater.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Very interesting. I viewed some of the HHO videos by Church and others. Does anybody have a more explanatory video link or PDF explaining what is occurring. I can only garner so much from “Yup! That’s an engine.”. Thanks.

    God bless the internet. Less than 20 years of it and Science is leaping instead of walking, and garage science cannot be as easily suppressed. The Patterson Cell is a sad story of how we may have had LENR years ago. If I wanted ANY information on alternative Energy 20 years ago I would need to get my local library to reserve a book for me with a windmill on the cover and no mention of anything controversial. Now a few finger taps can show us any topic and their alternative views.

    I predicted in 2011 we would all be driving LENR cars within 10 years and I still stand by that claim. Even if it takes another 5 years to come to market, it would still be jumped on by those who hate gas prices.

    • Guest

      I’m not sure what you watched, but I think for the time being, when looking for HHO info, you should disregard videos discussing about applying this to cars and focus on those about the simplest implementation, which is also the closest to current LENR claims: a heater.

  • david55

    Randell mills new paper about soft x-ray continuum radiation from hho catalysts.

    http://www.blacklightpower.com/wp-content/uploads/papers/ContHOH.pdf

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Thanks.

      I would like something a bit easier to grasp as Hydrinos are a new concept, but thanks for the link.

    • Daniel Maris

      He’s got a cheek hasn’t he?

  • david55

    Randell mills new paper about soft x-ray continuum radiation from hho catalysts.

    http://www.blacklightpower.com/wp-content/uploads/papers/ContHOH.pdf

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Thanks.

      I would like something a bit easier to grasp as Hydrinos are a new concept, but thanks for the link.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Some considerations on cost effectiveness:

    The production of 1m^3 H2 by technical electrolysis requires ~ 4.5 kWh electrical energy.
    The heating value of H2 at 26°C/1bar is ~ 3 kWh/m^3.
    Electricity is here where I live ~ 4.5 times more expensive than natural gas (related to energy yield).
    If you would generate hydrogen by electrolysis and use it for heating by combustion under the given conditions, the costs would be about 4.5*(4.5/3) ~ 6.8 times higher than the costs for heating with natural gas. The COP of an economically useful reactor should lie significantly above that value.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      May be that’s note quite correct, since the COP is related to energy but not to costs. It would have to be at least relatively high.

  • Steve H

    We’ll done Justin. – great piece of real-world experimental science.
    Many thanks also to david55 and Frank for bringing this to our attention.
    I’m almost tempted to assemble and run some experiments myself. The Nanor also sounds promising.

    This new era of open, easy access information could propel the human race to a better future for all.

    Many thanks.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Some considerations on cost effectiveness:

    The production of 1m^3 H2 by technical electrolysis requires ~ 4.5 kWh electrical energy.
    The heating value of H2 at 26°C/1bar is ~ 3 kWh/m^3.
    Electricity is here where I live ~ 4.5 times more expensive than natural gas (related to energy yield).
    If you would generate hydrogen by electrolysis and use it for heating by combustion under the given conditions, the costs would be about 4.5*(4.5/3) ~ 6.8 times higher than the costs for heating with natural gas. The COP of an economically useful reactor should lie significantly above that value.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      May be that’s note quite correct, since the COP is related to energy but not to costs. It would have to be at least relatively high.

  • Gerard McEk

    There is a patent : Method and apparatus for injecting hydrogen into a catalytic converter US 5845485 A.
    You can use this privately, but not commercially. I will be more interested if over-unity is proven. Be aware, Justin, a proper calorimeter is not easy to build

    • david55

      We are talking about hho gas not H2 (hydrogen), injection of H2 into catalytic converter just release some heat and some water but hho reaction look totally different that create a plasma with a lot of heat and maybe some hydrino .so that patent is invalid.

  • Gerard McEk

    There is a patent : Method and apparatus for injecting hydrogen into a catalytic converter US 5845485 A.
    You can use this privately, but not commercially. I will be more interested if over-unity is proven. Be aware, Justin, a proper calorimeter is not easy to build

    • Guest

      ..

    • Robert Ellefson

      That is an interesting patent, one worth reading. One key point to note, however, is that all of the claims relate to use of the apparatus in conjunction with an internal combustion engine. No claims appear to cover the use of HHO and catalytic heating in the absence of an ICE. I’m not a patent lawyer, but what little I do know about patents suggests that it would not cover the current line of investigation that Justin et al are following. Also, their hydrogen generator differs from the current round of HHO (Brown’s gas) generators because they use a Proton Exchange Membrane and other filtering to assist in obtaining pure hydrogen.

  • Neal Ward

    We need to be aware on this site Brother, there are a lot of watchers, and no doers….I am not sure how much longer i will entertain this , I am just a dirty garage builder to these higher uppitties …..But I am building and testing though, they can keep their extra money for what ever, i will spend mine on trying, TRYING to make it a better world for my children and their children….

    Neal

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Nice. Best of luck to you, and use care.

    • Justin Church

      I agree bro. Anybody who has been at this for long enough and has got their hands dirty knows that most of the comments come from back seat drivers. Nobody builds anymore. Thats ok though, we are going to move forward with the project no matter the chatter. This has got to be one of the easiest experiments to do and yet, looks like we are the only ones playing with it. Its time for people to get out from in front of the computer and put a wrench in their hands….

      • Neal Ward

        You know it bro, full speed ahead , with or without anyone.
        The clientelle here seem to be too rich or too good to mingle with the likes
        of us dirty garage builders, and your cheap products, Not sure if they meant that
        as in cheap to buy or cheap shit……Either way, they can jump on the train or watch
        as it pulls out of the station, I don’t care. But one thing is for sure Justin Church and Neal Ward
        will be in the history books.

        Cheers Mate.

  • Guest

    We need to be aware on this site Brother, there are a lot of watchers, and no doers….I am not sure how much longer i will entertain this , I am just a dirty garage builder to these higher uppitties …..But I am building and testing though, they can keep their extra money for what ever, i will spend mine on trying, TRYING to make it a better world for my children and their children….

    Neal

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Nice. Best of luck to you, and use care.

    • Justin Church

      I agree bro. Anybody who has been at this for long enough and has got their hands dirty knows that most of the comments come from back seat drivers. Nobody builds anymore. Thats ok though, we are going to move forward with the project no matter the chatter. This has got to be one of the easiest experiments to do and yet, looks like we are the only ones playing with it. Its time for people to get out from in front of the computer and put a wrench in their hands….

      • Neal Ward

        You know it bro, full speed ahead , with or without anyone.
        The clientelle here seem to be too rich or too good to mingle with the likes
        of us dirty garage builders, and your cheap products, Not sure if they meant that
        as in cheap to buy or cheap shit……Either way, they can jump on the train or watch
        as it pulls out of the station, I don’t care. But one thing is for sure Justin Church and Neal Ward
        will be in the history books.

        Cheers Mate.

    • Owen Geiger

      Sorry, I don’t understand. From what I see, people here are intrigued by your ideas, researching the subject, asking questions and offering suggestions. We have a thousand times more in common than the masses out there who have no clue.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Nobody here discusses this, but with new outlooks at the nuclear process I sometimes wonder if we will find ways to split more stable atoms. Technology is not always good.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Nobody here discusses this, but with new outlooks at the nuclear process I sometimes wonder if we will find ways to split more stable atoms. Technology is not always good.

  • Robert Ellefson

    This paper about Langmuir’s research seems pertinent to the experiments being carried out currently. Note that Langmuir found trace amounts of water or oxygen to be “poison” to the high-thermal-output hydrogen recombination reactions, and was employing heated wires rather than the complex modern catalyst element used by Justin which is effective starting at room temperature and in the presence of substantial oxygen and water vapor. Nonetheless, I found this paper to be a good read…
    http://gifnet.org/articles/Langmuir%20&%20Atomic%20Hydrogen.pdf

  • bachcole

    I have been impressed and happy with what Justin Church has said, but his constant complaining about corporate people who know all about this and yet refuse to allow it to come out really hurts his credibility for me. Corporate people don’t know about this, or at least there is no way that we could know what they know, and if they did know they would make every effort to make money off of it. “Corporate people” are not monolithic. They are all people just like you and me who would love to make lots of money and don’t really care if the other “corporate person” is hurt by it or not.

    • Guest

      .

    • Justin Church

      Constant complaining about the corporate people? Shouldn’t we all be doing this and getting angry at them at the same time? David55 said it all in his comment back to you on this. Believe me the high ups in a lot of these corporations already know about this technology. Read the some of the other comments in this thread…one of being a response of who actually knows about this technology and who has been developing it.

      “You left out DARPA, NASA GRC, Italian Energy Dept. ENEA, EPRI, ELFORSK/Vattenfall, USAF, US Navy, and other ABC Agencies in Asia, EU, US, Russia. There is a lot of effort going here now – though most efforts are cloaked in secrecy by Pinky and the Brain thoughts of “Trying to take over the world.””

      The largest players in the United States would be the Military and Military Defense Contractors as well as Nasa. Don’t think for one second they don’t already know about this technology and use it on a regular basis. Sure Private John isn’t going to know about it and still drives a hummer that is fueled by diesel and is issued a rifle that uses gun powder to propel a piece of metal but there is another side to the Military that most never get a chance to see. Sure most people inside of the corporate structure are kind hearted people who are just trying to make a living and of course they probably don’t know about the technology. There is a couple of words to explain why. Secrecy and Compartmentalization. If you do some digging you can find all kinds of declassified documents from the United States Military that prove they have been working on these technologies since the 50’s.

      “Corporate people don’t know about this, or at least there is no way that we could know what they know, and if they did know they would make every effort to make money off of it”

      I just explained to you why most of the corporate structure is uneducated about this technology but let me explain to you why they are not making every effort to make money off it.

      When this technology is finally released, there will be trillions of dollars in profit made but only at first. In a few short years we could have everything converted over to these energy technologies completely getting rid of oil and the electric grid. Then what happens? Everybody on the planet is self sufficient. Your no longer buying gasoline because your car never really needs refueling, Your never going to break down again because the automobile is well built and isn’t made of millions of parts that will eventually break, Your not going to be paying for electricity anymore so you won’t be paying for centralized grid power, it will cost next to nothing to transport goods and services and the energy needed to produce them will be dirty cheap as well, You will not need as much propane and natural gas to heat during the winter if any at all, I could go on and on. My point is that monthly income the corporate structure depends on to keep the oil machine turning is going to come to a halt. Money in itself will become of little to no use. These multi trillion dollar industries, governments and corporations are going to see a massive dip in profits, to the point where most of them will seize to exists. The energy technologies haven’t been allowed to hit the market because the entire power and money structure our society is based upon will crumble very fast. People that are in power now will lose every bit of power they once had. Now why on earth would any of them want that to happen? lol

      Someone needs to complain and shout these facts because no one else is. They are ignoring the facts. Its time we stand up and do something about this mess. I ain’t here for credibility my friend. I’m here to give away important information and let the world know most of us are fed up. All these technologies could have been on the market decades ago. Even some of the traditional forms of the Hydrogen technologies could have made it to market as well. But you know what…it ain’t happening.

      Don’t kid yourself bro, this technology ain’t new. None of these open cold fusion research groups are doing anything that hasn’t been done before….Thats a fact Jack

  • Mike Phalen

    Hi everyone. As if E-catworld wasn’t already exciting enough in the last six weeks. The amazing new H-cat effect came out of nowhere yesterday. Frank has created a H-Cat section in the E-catworld forum. In an attempt to keep track of the new H-cat subject I’ve created a discussion for H-cat effect videos and a discussion on catalytic converter research, how they work and some LENR/catalytic converter related research. http://www.e-catworld.com/foru

  • david55

    Half of world wealth are owned by 86 people do you think that is normal ? they aren’t like you and me .in my opinion democracy in 95% of world is just a illusion created by two party system owned by tease guys all of these puppet show is taking place so they can shift world wealth upward toward these guys.

  • Justin Church

    Constant complaining about the corporate people? Shouldn’t we all be doing this and getting angry at them at the same time? David55 said it all in his comment back to you on this. Believe me the high ups in a lot of these corporations already know about this technology. Read the some of the other comments in this thread…one of being a response of who actually knows about this technology and who has been developing it.

    “You left out DARPA, NASA GRC, Italian Energy Dept. ENEA, EPRI, ELFORSK/Vattenfall, USAF, US Navy, and other ABC Agencies in Asia, EU, US, Russia. There is a lot of effort going here now – though most efforts are cloaked in secrecy by Pinky and the Brain thoughts of “Trying to take over the world.””

    The largest players in the United States would be the Military and Military Defense Contractors as well as Nasa. Don’t think for one second they don’t already know about this technology and use it on a regular basis. Sure Private John isn’t going to know about it and still drives a hummer that is fueled by diesel and is issued a rifle that uses gun powder to propel a piece of metal but there is another side to the Military that most never get a chance to see. Sure most people inside of the corporate structure are kind hearted people who are just trying to make a living and of course they probably don’t know about the technology. There is a couple of words to explain why. Secrecy and Compartmentalization. If you do some digging you can find all kinds of declassified documents from the United States Military that prove they have been working on these technologies since the 50’s.

    “Corporate people don’t know about this, or at least there is no way that we could know what they know, and if they did know they would make every effort to make money off of it”

    I just explained to you why most of the corporate structure is uneducated about this technology but let me explain to you why they are not making every effort to make money off it.

    When this technology is finally released, there will be trillions of dollars in profit made but only at first. In a few short years we could have everything converted over to these energy technologies completely getting rid of oil and the electric grid. Then what happens? Everybody on the planet is self sufficient. Your no longer buying gasoline because your car never really needs refueling, Your never going to break down again because the automobile is well built and isn’t made of millions of parts that will eventually break, Your not going to be paying for electricity anymore so you won’t be paying for centralized grid power, it will cost next to nothing to transport goods and services and the energy needed to produce them will be dirty cheap as well, You will not need as much propane and natural gas to heat during the winter if any at all, I could go on and on. My point is that monthly income the corporate structure depends on to keep the oil machine turning is going to come to a halt. Money in itself will become of little to no use. These multi trillion dollar industries, governments and corporations are going to see a massive dip in profits, to the point where most of them will seize to exists. The energy technologies haven’t been allowed to hit the market because the entire power and money structure our society is based upon will crumble very fast. People that are in power now will lose every bit of power they once had. Now why on earth would any of them want that to happen? lol

    Someone needs to complain and shout these facts because no one else is. They are ignoring the facts. Its time we stand up and do something about this mess. I ain’t here for credibility my friend. I’m here to give away important information and let the world know most of us are fed up. All these technologies could have been on the market decades ago. Even some of the traditional forms of the Hydrogen technologies could have made it to market as well. But you know what…it ain’t happening.

    Don’t kid yourself bro, this technology ain’t new. None of these open cold fusion research groups are doing anything that hasn’t been done before….Thats a fact Jack

  • Andreas Moraitis

    One proposal regarding safety: Perhaps you could use two separate pipes for the supply of hydrogen and oxygen and mix the gases immediately before they reach the reaction zone?

    • david55

      Result of hydrogen and oxygen mixer isn’t hho it is H2O after reaction with catalyst. without hho gas this reaction can’t happen.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        It should be at least a good test for the HHO theory. I would be much more confident if that setup wouldn’t work, as you predict.

      • david55

        nc42 write
        ”Are you making the claim that H2 and O2 mixed together at a 2:1 ration
        is different the the 2 molecules of H2 and 1 molecule of O2 produced by
        electrolysis of water?”

        There is no 2 molecules of H2 and 1 molecule of O2 in hho gas.hho is 2 unbound hydrogen ion plus 1 ion of oxygen so you can write HHO as HOH not H2O2H2 . this is why hho can go under hydrino reaction with catalyst because hydrogen exist as ion in hho gas . and please don’t go to wikirubbish for information .

        Randell mills new paper about soft x-ray continuum radiation from hho catalysts.
        http://www.blacklightpower.com/wp-content/uploads/papers/ContHOH.pdf

  • Andreas Moraitis

    One proposal regarding safety: Perhaps you could use two separate pipes for the supply of hydrogen and oxygen and mix the gases immediately before they reach the reaction zone?

    • Guest

      .

      • Andreas Moraitis

        It should be at least a good test for the HHO theory. I would be much more confident if that setup wouldn’t work, as you predict.

      • nc42

        Are you making the claim that H2 and O2 mixed together at a 2:1 ration is different the the 2 molecules of H2 and 1 molecule of O2 produced by electrolysis of water?

        • Andreas Moraitis

          I did not make that claim, but HHO theorists seemingly do so. Apparently some of the comments here have been deleted.

      • Guest

        .

        • nc42

          I went to a thing called chemistry class. I am quite intrigued by the effects of blowing the out put from a electrolysis cell on the CC and achieving heat. That said I’m not willing to accept that oxygen and hydrogen will flow off the electrodes, through the flash back suppressor and down the delivery tube with out combining into H2 molecules and O2 molecules.

  • US_Citizen71

    I must admit that this thread and the one that proceeded it has lowered my opinion of E-Catworld a few notches. I’ve been following this forum for a couple of years and at times the topics become thin and the time between exciting and interesting news can be long, but this is the first time the topics have become so ridiculous that I feel I must wear tinfoil hat to read them. If I wanted to read about a shill of garage made devices spouting unsupported conspiracy theories and bad science like gospel I would be over at youtube. I hope the content improves in the coming weeks.

    • Mr. Moho

      Sadly, at this point I have to agree. Church et al. have no interest whatsoever in scientific verification or any sort of constructive criticism and are badmouthing people who tried to help them with potentially useful information and suggestions. While given claims by researchers/inventors involved with LENR (or LENR-like) experiments such as Mills or Santilli there might still be something more than meets the eye in this “HHO” controversy, my conclusion after reading elsewhere their discussions on what they’re up to is that the guys either have no clue at all and/or just want to have fun messing around. I’ll keep watching silently for some more time, but my confidence that they have something is dropping by the minute.

      I would suggest admin to let them have fun, but don’t bother with them for the time being. Let’s keep going with actual LENR news and discussions instead.

      • NT

        Yes, I/we understand their excitement and also their frustrations. We have discussed these here for years and how that has affected all cold fusion research. I encourage them to take a deep breath, keep their experiments going, and to stay with our discussions (with civility and respect). Who knows they may just learn something here that can really help them to better mankind, a goal we all want to see happen. I believe 2014 will be the year that the lid blows off and the light shines in, these guys may just help that to happen – if they calm down a bit…

      • Justin Church

        Looks like the previous comment I made to Us_Citizen was deleted, even though I did not use foul language, only trying to defend myself. Your comment was highly disrespectful and so far from the truth its not even funny. We got a “clue” as to what is going on and we do NOT do this stuff for fun.

        “To be fair, though, Rossi started with ridiculous looking garage-made devices too”
        Now that is a very cheap shot full of disrespect and hurt. Its hard for me to bite my tongue when writing this comment back to you.

        All I can say is you are ill-informed about myself and what I’m trying to accomplish…

        • Mr. Moho

          Now that is a very cheap shot full of disrespect and hurt. Its hard for
          me to bite my tongue when writing this comment back to you.

          I didn’t mean to be disrespectful. It was in answer to US_Citizen71’s “garage made devices”. What I meant was that Rossi started with those too, yet he’s [supposedly] come a long way. Prototypes aren’t usually meant to be beautiful, as long as they’re useful.

    • Justin Church

      Ohh please, take your blinders off for god sakes. After chatting with you a little bit on the other page here I can tell you are nothing but a backseat driver with nothing but the smell of lavender lotion on your hands. Put your helmet and seat-belt back on. Your drooling on my shag carpet and your going to be slammed right into the windshield.

  • US_Citizen71

    I must admit that this thread and the one that proceeded it has lowered my opinion of E-Catworld a few notches. I’ve been following this forum for a couple of years and at times the topics become thin and the time between exciting and interesting news can be long, but this is the first time the topics/threads have become so ridiculous that I feel I must wear tinfoil hat to read them. If I wanted to read about a shill of garage made devices spouting unsupported conspiracy theories and bad science like gospel I would be over at youtube. I hope the content improves in the coming weeks.

    • bachcole

      I presented a very reasonable counter argument to Justin’s (and others’) conspiracy theory, but it was like talking to a brick wall.

      I also think that that 86 people owning 50% of the world’s wealth is probably false. I might believe 860, but not 86. If we start with that dude in Mexico who owns $60 billion, and richest man in the world, and we multiply that times 86, we come up with 5.16 trillion. The USA alone is worth, in private assets, in the multiple $10s of trillions. And my estimate was assuming that there were 86 people in the world with $60 billion, which is an obvious extreme overestimate. There is only ONE person in the world worth $60 billion. So that 86 people in the world own 50% of the is a BIG, FAT Progressive lie.

      I am intrigued by Justin’s experiments, but I would certainly like better measurements and some replication (and measurement of the replications)

      • Guest

        .

  • ecatworld

    I’ve started these threads because I think Justin’s videos have shown an interesting phenomenon that I think bears investigating. I am completely new to this idea of energy from an HHO/Catalyzer, as I would guess many readers Here are, and I haven’t studied it enough yet to draw conclusions, but I am interested to learn more.

    On this site we have looked at a number of different ‘LENR’ technologies (in the broad sense), and if something new comes up that looks credible and interesting, I’ll cover it — and we’ll see how it pans out.

    I don’t think it makes much of a difference if the work is done in a garage or a well-equipped laboratory, or whether a mechanic or a highly degreed scientist is doing the work. Truth is truth.

    I think that making suggestions and asking questions is fine, we’ve been doing that for years here. Criticism is fine, too — but let’s stick to basic standards of decency and respect in the comments here.

  • Frank Acland

    I’ve started these threads because I think Justin’s videos have shown an interesting phenomenon that I think bears investigating. I am completely new to this idea of energy from an HHO/Catalyzer, as I would guess many readers Here are, and I haven’t studied it enough yet to draw conclusions, but I am interested to learn more.

    On this site we have looked at a number of different ‘LENR’ technologies (in the broad sense), and if something new comes up that looks credible and interesting, I’ll cover it — and we’ll see how it pans out.

    I don’t think it makes much of a difference if the work is done in a garage or a well-equipped laboratory, or whether a mechanic or a highly degreed scientist is doing the work. Truth is truth.

    I think that making suggestions and asking questions is fine, we’ve been doing that for years here. Criticism is fine, too if it’s constructive and not personal — but let’s stick to basic standards of decency and respect in the comments here.

  • david55
  • Justin Church

    I am going to step back from the comments section here and let others draw their own conclusions or take it upon their-self to run the experiments and document the numbers. My main goal of all of this is to build a heater and not to get heavily involved in the efficiency measurements. No heater exists based on this principle so therefore its much more important to me to build a functional device than to spend time and money on taking measurements. I will take the measurements once I tidy up the design. I can be a real prick when responding back to comments that I feel are directly or indirectly attacking my work or the work of others, especially when I realize the person making the comments has never got their hands dirty. Its one thing to provide constructive criticism but its another to word it in a way that belittles or frowns upon it. No smoke and mirrors with me. Everything is out in the open. I have given away the information so others can join in. What if Rossi started his work in the same manner. Is it right he kept it a secret when it was so simple? I feel what Justin Church and Neal Ward did was very thoughtful and deserving of some respect. I will admit I do not know it all but I can tell you this is important and deserves more experimentation and respect. I am not just some ignorant conspiracy theorist. I have spent over a decade in deep study of all of these technologies and I have gathered enough knowledge to know the research is much older than some of us think. I have also come to the conclusion its not as hard to build as some people think. I am thankful Frank decided to post the information because regardless of what anyone thinks of myself at this point in time, I gave you the information to begin running the tests for yourself. No million dollar lab needed. Over the course of the next few weeks and months, I will be fine tuning my project and I hope by then others will be posting experiments and measurements as well. I cannot do this alone. I have a short fuse and I do not like getting caught up in the comment section of these posts because it brings out the bitterness in me. I am a humanitarian looking for answers. That is all. Thank you all for participating and do not take anything I have said to you or anyone else as disrespect. I’m hurt, I’m disappointed, and I’m angry. Its very hard for me to control those emotions but I hope my work is enough to inspire someone else to take a path for the better of mankind…

    • ecatworld

      Thanks, Justin. I believe you certainly deserve respect for putting your work out there for the world to examine. I know you have gotten some serious people interested with your demonstrations, and I am sure there will be further investigation based on what you have presented. I’m one whose interest in LENR and other like technologies is based on the benefits they offer to the average person and hope it is the average person who wins out in the long run.

      • bachcole

        I also thank Justin for being here and showing us these very interesting demonstrations.

        I just don’t agree with the idea that corporate meanie heads are trying to suppress good ideas and technologies, and I think going on and on about it is not good strategy.

    • NT

      Good luck Justin, and PLEASE report back to us as you fine tune and further develop your heater. I am very much interested in your gas generators, as my better half is now very excited in applying this unique gas welding to her jewelry making business/hobby. Stay safe!

    • Omega Z

      So you have HHO reacting to ? Any Idea which of the following Cat components?
      Palladium, Platinum, rhodium, Cerium, iron, manganese and nickel(U.S), Copper(NA-U.S)

  • Justin Church

    I am going to step back from the comments section here and let others draw their own conclusions or take it upon their-self to run the experiments and document the numbers. My main goal of all of this is to build a heater and not to get heavily involved in the efficiency measurements. No heater exists based on this principle so therefore its much more important to me to build a functional device than to spend time and money on taking measurements. I will take the measurements once I tidy up the design. I can be a real prick when responding back to comments that I feel are directly or indirectly attacking my work or the work of others, especially when I realize the person making the comments has never got their hands dirty. Its one thing to provide constructive criticism but its another to word it in a way that belittles or frowns upon it. No smoke and mirrors with me. Everything is out in the open. I have given away the information so others can join in. What if Rossi started his work in the same manner. Is it right he kept it a secret when it was so simple? I feel what Justin Church and Neal Ward did was very thoughtful and deserving of some respect. I will admit I do not know it all but I can tell you this is important and deserves more experimentation and respect. I am not just some ignorant conspiracy theorist. I have spent over a decade in deep study of all of these technologies and I have gathered enough knowledge to know the research is much older than some of us think. I have also come to the conclusion its not as hard to build as some people think. I am thankful Frank decided to post the information because regardless of what anyone thinks of myself at this point in time, I gave you the information to begin running the tests for yourself. No million dollar lab needed. Over the course of the next few weeks and months, I will be fine tuning my project and I hope by then others will be posting experiments and measurements as well. I cannot do this alone. I have a short fuse and I do not like getting caught up in the comment section of these posts because it brings out the bitterness in me. I am a humanitarian looking for answers. That is all. Thank you all for participating and do not take anything I have said to you or anyone else as disrespect. I’m hurt, I’m disappointed, and I’m angry. Its very hard for me to control those emotions but I hope my work is enough to inspire someone else to take a path for the better of mankind…

    • Frank Acland

      Thanks, Justin. I believe you certainly deserve respect for putting your work out there for the world to examine. I know you have gotten some serious people interested with your demonstrations, and I am sure there will be further investigation based on what you have presented. I’m one whose interest in LENR and other like technologies is based on the benefits they offer to the average person and hope it is the average person who wins out in the long run.

      • bachcole

        I also thank Justin for being here and showing us these very interesting demonstrations.

        I just don’t agree with the idea that corporate meanie heads are trying to suppress good ideas and technologies, and I think going on and on about it is not good strategy.

    • NT

      Good luck Justin, and PLEASE report back to us as you fine tune and further develop your heater. I am very much interested in your gas generators, as my better half is now very excited in applying this unique gas welding to her jewelry making business/hobby. Stay safe!

    • Well put Justin. thanks for sharing your work.

    • Omega Z

      So you have HHO reacting to ? Any Idea which of the following Cat components?
      Palladium, Platinum, rhodium, Cerium, iron, manganese and nickel(U.S), Copper(NA-U.S)

  • bachcole

    According to Forbes, the richest person on Earth is Carlos Slim Helu and family of Mexico at $73 billion. The 86th richest person on Earth is Zong Qinghou of China at $11.2 billion. If we add those two together, divide by 2 and multiple by 86, we will get the ballpark figure for the total worth of the 86 richest people on Earth. This is their assets, not their cash flow. The total ballpark figure for these 86 people (and their families in some cases) is $3.6206 trillion.

    According Wikipedia, the gross world product in 2012 was $84.97 trillion. This is the cash flow, which would be much less than the worth of all of the world’s assets. So, although I am dividing apples by oranges, this comparison makes the rumor that 86 people own 50% of the wealth look absurd.

    The final percentage for these 86 people and their families is closer to 4.26%, which is about 11.7 times less than the lie. I stand firmly on the belief that large income disparity is harmful to society, but I am keener about being honest. And “exaggeration” is only a longer way of spelling “lie”.

    • Veblin

      What rumor are you debunking? The rumor that 86 people own 50% of the wealth? Did you make that one up in your own mind.

      Are we discussing the Oxfam report? It does not say that.
      http://www.oxfam.org/en/policy/working-for-the-few-economic-inequality

      It does say.

      Almost half of the world’s wealth is now owned by just one percent of the population. (about 71 million people)
      The wealth of the one percent richest people in the world amounts to $110 trillion.
      That’s 65 times the total wealth of the bottom half of the world’s population. (about 3.5 billion people)
      The bottom half of the world’s population owns the same as the richest 85 people in the world.

      • bachcole

        I don’t know where it is made-up, whether in my mind as a misunderstanding, or in someone else’s mind. Apparently, these 86 dudes make has much as the poorest 1/2 of the population. But I interpreted it or heard it as these 86 dudes owned 1/2 of the wealth in the world, and these are two entirely different things. I apologize for either promoting a lie or setting up a strawman and shooting it down. I did shoot it down pretty well, didn’t I? (:->)

        There is also the confusion between cash flow and ownership of assets, but I won’t go into that.

        • Omega Z

          Roger, Lots of propaganda in the Class warfare’s.
          No doubt there’s a serious income gap, But Middle class Americans own $70 Trillion in assets. (There Homes after deducting Debt.) And excluding any other assets.
          They also have $30 trillion in private pensions.

          In class warfare you’ll find a lot of cherry picking of Data. Like there isn’t enough difference already.

          Politicians & certain groups Love to promote class warfare. Pay no attention to those guys behind that curtain in D.C.

      • Omega Z

        Oxfam speaking of assets as money is Ignorant.
        Most assets are already inflated in value & they inflate them more as part of an agenda. Best that could be said is that their promoting class warfare.

        Note: In the U.S., A net income of $250K makes you part of the 1%.

        A $150K dollar home in 1 part of the country can be worth a Million plus in another area.
        I have a Friend that’s a Farmer that is technically a Millionaire, (About $20 Mill in assets) But net income places him in the middle class. About 75K-80K on a good year. All else goes just to keep the assets going for 1 more year.

        Point is numbers can easily be manipulated to ones agenda.
        But for sure, Assets only have value as long as there is someone else with the financial means(Cash) to purchase them. When not, they quickly become worthless & if you try to take these assets to convert to cash, that’s about all you get. a little bit of nothing.

        But as long as people are distracted & argue about silly nonsense, The Income Gap can never seriously be fixed. And (Income Gap) is the point.. Not Assets.

        • you are right.
          Most asset are working asset that owner cannot sell, and the income as cash are great but not as big as the asset value.

          As said here another asset are ignored, the comitment in retirement fund, the comitment in social aid.
          Of course it is only for wealthy countries.

          anothe things noticed by some, is that the top most wealthy people are changing more and more quickly.
          Less and less economic rents. They looked at the fortune 500 and found that the top are changing every few years…
          Less and less son of dad, or century old companies.

          and you will find the the few squaters are installed in an economic rent…

          of course there are huge difference between poor countries, where elite are poor compared to a middle class in western country, but incredibly rich compared to local.

          in tact it seems the optimal wealth for happiness is around 100k$/Eur per year.
          above is troubles.

          I’m not sure it is the good ratio, as today you have to divide by head.. a kid of 3 cost as much as a teenager, as much as a wife, as much as the husband.

          50k$ for a single allow big saving.
          divide it by 4 and you only have the minimum (provided you are not helped).

    • schruefer

      “There’s class warfare, all right, () but it’s my class, the rich class, that’s making war, and we’re winning.”

      Warren Buffett

  • Veblin

    What rumor are you debunking? The rumor that 86 people own 50% of the wealth? Did you make that one up in your own mind.

    Are we discussing the Oxfam report? It does not say that.
    http://www.oxfam.org/en/policy/working-for-the-few-economic-inequality

    It does say.

    Almost half of the world’s wealth is now owned by just one percent of the population. (about 71 million people)
    The wealth of the one percent richest people in the world amounts to $110 trillion.
    That’s 65 times the total wealth of the bottom half of the world’s population. (about 3.5 billion people)
    The bottom half of the world’s population owns the same as the richest 85 people in the world.

    • bachcole

      I don’t know where it is made-up, whether in my mind as a misunderstanding, or in someone else’s mind. Apparently, these 86 dudes make has much as the poorest 1/2 of the population. But I interpreted it or heard it as these 86 dudes owned 1/2 of the wealth in the world, and these are two entirely different things. I apologize for either promoting a lie or setting up a strawman and shooting it down. I did shoot it down pretty well, didn’t I? (:->)

      There is also the confusion between cash flow and ownership of assets, but I won’t go into that.

      • Omega Z

        Roger, Lots of propaganda in the Class warfare’s.
        No doubt there’s a serious income gap, But Middle class Americans own $70 Trillion in assets. (There Homes after deducting Debt.) And excluding any other assets.
        They also have $30 trillion in private pensions.

        In class warfare you’ll find a lot of cherry picking of Data. Like there isn’t enough difference already.

        Politicians & certain groups Love to promote class warfare. Pay no attention to those guys behind that curtain in D.C.

    • Omega Z

      Oxfam speaking of assets as money is Ignorant.
      Most assets are already inflated in value & they inflate them more as part of an agenda. Best that could be said is that their promoting class warfare.

      Note: In the U.S., A net income of $250K makes you part of the 1%.

      A $150K dollar home in 1 part of the country can be worth a Million plus in another area.
      I have a Friend that’s a Farmer that is technically a Millionaire, (About $20 Mill in assets) But net income places him in the middle class. About 75K-80K on a good year. All else goes just to keep the assets going for 1 more year.

      Point is numbers can easily be manipulated to ones agenda.
      But for sure, Assets only have value as long as there is someone else with the financial means(Cash) to purchase them. When not, they quickly become worthless & if you try to take these assets to convert to cash, that’s about all you get. a little bit of nothing.

      But as long as people are distracted & argue about silly nonsense, The Income Gap can never seriously be fixed. And (Income Gap) is the point.. Not Assets.

      • you are right.
        Most asset are working asset that owner cannot sell, and the income as cash are great but not as big as the asset value.

        As said here another asset are ignored, the comitment in retirement fund, the comitment in social aid.
        Of course it is only for wealthy countries.

        anothe things noticed by some, is that the top most wealthy people are changing more and more quickly.
        Less and less economic rents. They looked at the fortune 500 and found that the top are changing every few years…
        Less and less son of dad, or century old companies.

        and you will find the the few squaters are installed in an economic rent…

        of course there are huge difference between poor countries, where elite are poor compared to a middle class in western country, but incredibly rich compared to local.

        in tact it seems the optimal wealth for happiness is around 100k$/Eur per year.
        above is troubles.

        I’m not sure it is the good ratio, as today you have to divide by head.. a kid of 3 cost as much as a teenager, as much as a wife, as much as the husband.

        50k$ for a single allow big saving.
        divide it by 4 and you only have the minimum (provided you are not helped).

  • Sverker

    Most interesting! This is almost exactly what my Swedish friend Peter Storm (http://www.hyway1.com/) built in his workshop in Thailand. I bought 2 of his “boxes”. Good quality, and very good looks also.
    The theory behind it was pretty good understood by Peter, but the real inventor, in his mind, was of course Stan Meyer, who´s document´s and patents Peter had studied.

    Stan Meyer died mysteriously 1998. Last year Peter Storm also suddenly died. I was in contact with him just the day before he died. He mentioned that he had got a flu that was bugging him.He was only 50 years old.

    Justin, are you familiar with either of those two men, and their inventions?

  • david55

    NEW video from H-cat experiment

    Starting Up The H-CAT From Room Temperature
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jczBXmr7yo

    Mixture of shop air and hho prevent flashback
    https://www.youtube.com/results?filters=week&search_query=h-cat&lclk=week

  • david55

    NEW video from H-cat experiment

    Starting Up The H-CAT From Room Temperature
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9jczBXmr7yo

    Mixture of shop air and hho prevent hho flame in close contact of torch with catalyst
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CYGRNmwIDNY
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F2q0Yrlm368

  • fritz194

    Burning HHO without a flame using a catalytic converter is not too special.

    Johann Wolfgang Doebereiner invented such “Lamp” 150 years ago.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_D%C3%B6bereiner

    • david55

      Can you link a video or paper for this claim?

      • US_Citizen71
        • david55

          ” zinc metal reacts with sulfuric acid to produce hydrogen gas. When a valve is opened, a jet of hydrogen is released and bursts into flame. The ignition is catalyzed by platinum metal.”

          “Incidentally, one could have imagined that either H2 or O2
          (but not both) first bond to the surface and break up. And then water
          might be formed directly, the Pt-H(a) or Pt-O(a) approached by a gas
          phase O2 or H2 molecule, respectively, without the
          latter bonding to the surface. This apparently does not happen; can you
          think of an experiment to test such a mechanism?”

          I don’t know why you can’t understand H2 and HHO are different gas your link is about h2 reaction not hho

          Flameless Reaction of Hydrogen and Oxygen forming water catalyzed by platinum metal
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ7b7TKoOC4

          • US_Citizen71

            “HHO gas

            HHO gas is a purported “new form of water” created using “pulsed electrolysis” equipment. While “HHO” may look like a synonym for water (HOH), in papers by fringe physicist Ruggero Santilli, it is claimed that HHO is a unique form of matter, made up of “magnecules” of hydrogen gas (HH) connected to lone oxygen atoms (O) by “magnecular bonds”.

            Although Santilli’s revolutionary theories about “hadronic mechanics” and “magnecules” are too cool for the lamestream scientific establishment, he still publishes articles about them in scientific journals that coincidentally happen to be owned and operated by himself. Naturally, he also wants to sell you things.[1]” – http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/HHO_gas

            “Fringe science and fraud

            “Brown’s Gas” is oxyhydrogen with a 2:1 molar ratio of H2 and O2 gases, the same proportion as in water. It is named after Yull Brown, who claimed that it could be used as a fuel for the internal combustion engine.[4][14] It’s also called “HHO gas” after the claims of fringe physicist[15] Ruggero Santilli, who claims that his HHO gas, produced by a special apparatus, is “a new form of water”, with new properties, based on his fringe theory of “magnecules”.[14]

            Many other pseudoscientific claims have been made about Brown’s Gas’s pretended ability to neutralize radioactive waste, weld metals, help plants to germinate, etc.[14]

            Oxyhydrogen is also often mentioned in conjunction with vehicles that claim to use water as a fuel. The most common and decisive counter-argument against producing this gas on board to use as a fuel or fuel additive is that more energy is needed to split water molecules than is recouped by burning the resulting gas.[4][16] Additionally, the number of liters per minute of gas that can be produced for on-demand consumption through electrolysis is very small in comparison to the liters per minute consumed by an internal combustion engine.[17]

            An article in Popular Mechanics reports that Brown’s Gas cannot even increase the miles per gallon (MPG) of your vehicle, and that the only real savings come from tampering with your engine, which may confuse the anti-smog controls.[18]

            “Water-fueled” cars should not be confused with hydrogen-fueled cars where the hydrogen is produced elsewhere and used as fuel or where it is used as fuel enhancement. ” – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen

          • david55

            According to wikipedia Randell mills ,Santilli ,rossi ,lenr ,cold fusion , hho are fringe science and fringe scientist if not fraud , do you have something more to add ? why you even come here to read about fringe science ?

          • US_Citizen71

            I don’t consider LENR fringe science. I consider it cutting edge. There are multiple
            scientific papers to back it up from all over the world from government
            sponsored and private labs.

            HHO Gas on the other hand does not have the same backing of
            multiple scientific papers. Tested and accepted science show the creation of H2
            and O2 molecules when electrolysis is done. Please show a reputable paper
            showing HHO to be the product of electrolysis of water. Videos showing ‘look
            bro it caught on fire’ do not count as H2 and O2 burn when mixed. Electrolysis
            of water is a 200 year old technology that currently has been abandoned outside
            of high school chemistry classes due to its inefficiency when compared with
            processes like steam reformation of methane to produce hydrogen.

            Passing a mixture of H2 and O2 over a metallic catalyst such
            as palladium or platinum is not a new discovery (class demonstration plan from
            the University of Minnesota circa March 2000 – http://www.chem.umn.edu/services/lecturedemo/info/Hydrogen_and_Platinum.html).

          • david55

            whole work of Randell mills and Santilli are based on hho gas they are two big player
            and highly knowledgeable and educated guy in LENR field and their technology is near to commercialization and you say hho are fringe science but you believe in lenr, can you say to me what is lenr ?

          • US_Citizen71

            Don’t mix Mills with Santilli. Santilli is claiming creation of HHO from electrolysis. Mills is subjecting water to a high current spark which heats water to the point that the bonds break and form mono-atomic H and O. Apples and oranges.

          • david55

            So randell mills doesn’t believe in hho according to you but still he write paper about it.

            Randell mills new paper about soft x-ray continuum radiation from HOH catalyst
            http://www.blacklightpower.com/wp-content/uploads/papers/ContHOH.pdf

          • US_Citizen71

            HOH is just another way of writing H2O or water it is not HHO/Brown’s gas. HOH shows the bonding of a water molecule two hydrogen atoms bonded to a single oxygen atom. HHO would describe a hydrogen atom bonded to hydrogen atom that is also bonded to an oxygen atom. This would mean that hydrogen atom in the middle is bonded to both an oxygen atom and a hydrogen atom. This would exceed the number of available ionic bonds that a single hydrogen atom has, hence Santilli’s creation of the “magnecular bond”, which has not been proven to exist by anyone other than Santilli.

            My original request was “Please show a reputable paper showing HHO to be the product of electrolysis of water.” Mills doesn’t use electrolysis so please move on to another example.

          • david55
          • US_Citizen71

            A couple of exchanges on Vortex does not equal a paper. For evidence they are nothing but anecdotes and conjecture.

          • david55

            Mike Carrell is a close friend of randell mills and study his theory for 20 years

            http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/Mallove/DrEugeneMallove-MC.shtml

          • US_Citizen71

            Your link goes to an article titled ‘Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove’ and doesn’t mention electrolysis at all.

          • david55
          • US_Citizen71

            BLP’s process is not electrolysis, so I guess I have to assume you have nothing to backup the HHO from electrolysis claim.

            Having used electrolysis in AP Chemistry years ago in high school as a source for hydrogen and oxygen in several different experiments it is not a magical mystery to me. If the top of your container used for electrolysis is separated you get H2 on one half and O2 on the other. We determined this with various indicators and chemicals reactions that required one or the other. We never found the mythical magical HHO gas in all of the hours of electrolysis we did. All I’m asking is for evidence not extraordinary evidence to counter the experiments I did with my own two hands. But you do not seem to be able to that. instead you pull in strawmen and unrelated topics.

          • david55

            Your problem is that you think only way to generate hho is electrolysis,another way to generate hho is high voltage spark that is what happening in lightening everyday . i think you didn’t read
            Mike Carrell explanation about HOH

            ”It is easy to see BLP’s HOH as ‘really’ Browns’ Gas, written HHO. Brown’s
            Gas is that collected from the electrolysis of water, which when ignited
            seemed to yield more energy than required to electrolyze it. If one
            **studies** Mills’ work with the catalysis of H, there is a curious
            relationship. It happens that under certain circumstances, ionized O can
            catalyze hydrino production, and H can auto-catalyze. An electric spark
            produces a brief plasma. Mills’ HOH is an abbreviation for *nascent* H2O, a
            free molecule not involved in any liquid. Mills’ ‘solid fuels’ achieve this
            by sophisticated chemistry. It is conceivable that nascent H2O is created
            by the spark in burning Browns’ Gas. The ‘excess energy’ phenomenon could be
            hard to reproduce without an understanding of the BLP phenomena.”

          • US_Citizen71

            I’m not going to wade into Mills’ theory. There is an old saying ‘blind them with brilliance or baffle them with BS’ I do not have the training or knowledge to tell which he is doing. I can tell his process has nothing to do with electrolysis, so attempts to attach HHO creation via electrolysis to his process to me appears to be using the 2nd half of that old saying. I can tell I will not likely ever convince you of my view nor will you likely ever convince me, so I will agree to disagree.

          • david55

            I don’t know whether this convince you or not but as you know whole cold fusion saga
            started by fleischmann pons experiment with electrolysis of water inside a bottle containing platinum metal, what is result of water electrolysis ? hho gas so you see whole cold fusion effect
            was becouse of hho gas bubble reacting with platinum metal but becouse this reaction was inside of water it was so weak and limited .if fleischmann thought about that he could invent h-cat 2 decade ago.

          • Mr. Moho

            As much as I don’t find this whole HHO debate/hypothesis very convincing, you have a point there. The original Fleischmann-Pons experiment consisted in a glass jar with a palladium rod as an anode and a platinum rod as a cathode, submerged in a heavy water solution. As of today the general explanation for the excess heat is that as the D (deuterium) from the heavy water (D2O) by getting adsorbed and loaded on the surface of the palladium anode during electrolysis, causes nuclear reactions to eventually occur by unknown processes, but who knows what actually happens exactly.

            There have been successful attempts recently by the italian DoE (ENEA) of replicating the excess heat during such experiments by doping (enriching) the palladium anode with platinum, as reported here:

            http://www.enea.it/it/Ufficio-Bruxelles/documenti/eventi/new-advancements-on-the-fleischmann-pons-effect/2-vittorio-violante-pdf

            I’m very skeptical that ‘HHO’ is involved (I guess it would have to be ‘DDO’ in the linked document since heavy water is used), but one has to admit that the “ingredients” for something to potentially happen are there. That’s why I’ve written in past comments that even though it doesn’t appear it could do anything useful, there might be something worth investigating in the home-made catalytic [converter] heater by Church et al.

            If cold fusion/LENR turns out to be a real effect, it’s very likely that it occurs more often than previously thought and in environments one would have never expected before. Perhaps it’s already even been often directly observed in other fields, but dismissed or mistook as something else instead.

          • Guest

            .

          • david55

            Whole point about hho gas is that hydrogen in form of hho can easily go under hydrino reaction but for H2 you need a very complicated process to that happen and more than just
            one kind of catalyst . this process is one that need preheating to active catalyst and you can notice resemblance of this process to e-cat .

            Catalysts recipes from Dr.Randell mills (for hydrino reaction of H2)
            http://www.buildecat.com/blog_detail/catalysts-recipes-from-dr-randell-mills-18.html

    • Neal Ward

      150 years ago ???
      You don’t see an issue with this ??
      150 years to develop it under the carpet ?
      Time to wake up people……

  • fritz194

    Burning HHO without a flame using a catalytic converter is not too special.

    Johann Wolfgang Doebereiner invented such “Lamp” 150 years ago.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Johann_Wolfgang_D%C3%B6bereiner

    • david55

      Can you link a video or paper for this claim?

      • US_Citizen71
        • david55

          ” zinc metal reacts with sulfuric acid to produce hydrogen gas. When a valve is opened, a jet of hydrogen is released and bursts into flame. The ignition is catalyzed by platinum metal.”

          “Incidentally, one could have imagined that either H2 or O2
          (but not both) first bond to the surface and break up. And then water
          might be formed directly, the Pt-H(a) or Pt-O(a) approached by a gas
          phase O2 or H2 molecule, respectively, without the
          latter bonding to the surface. This apparently does not happen; can you
          think of an experiment to test such a mechanism?”

          I don’t know why you can’t understand H2 and HHO are different gas your link is about h2 reaction not hho

          Flameless Reaction of Hydrogen and Oxygen forming water catalyzed by platinum metal
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ7b7TKoOC4

          • US_Citizen71

            “HHO gas

            HHO gas is a purported “new form of water” created using “pulsed electrolysis” equipment. While “HHO” may look like a synonym for water (HOH), in papers by fringe physicist Ruggero Santilli, it is claimed that HHO is a unique form of matter, made up of “magnecules” of hydrogen gas (HH) connected to lone oxygen atoms (O) by “magnecular bonds”.

            Although Santilli’s revolutionary theories about “hadronic mechanics” and “magnecules” are too cool for the lamestream scientific establishment, he still publishes articles about them in scientific journals that coincidentally happen to be owned and operated by himself. Naturally, he also wants to sell you things.[1]” – http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/HHO_gas

            “Fringe science and fraud

            “Brown’s Gas” is oxyhydrogen with a 2:1 molar ratio of H2 and O2 gases, the same proportion as in water. It is named after Yull Brown, who claimed that it could be used as a fuel for the internal combustion engine.[4][14] It’s also called “HHO gas” after the claims of fringe physicist[15] Ruggero Santilli, who claims that his HHO gas, produced by a special apparatus, is “a new form of water”, with new properties, based on his fringe theory of “magnecules”.[14]

            Many other pseudoscientific claims have been made about Brown’s Gas’s pretended ability to neutralize radioactive waste, weld metals, help plants to germinate, etc.[14]

            Oxyhydrogen is also often mentioned in conjunction with vehicles that claim to use water as a fuel. The most common and decisive counter-argument against producing this gas on board to use as a fuel or fuel additive is that more energy is needed to split water molecules than is recouped by burning the resulting gas.[4][16] Additionally, the number of liters per minute of gas that can be produced for on-demand consumption through electrolysis is very small in comparison to the liters per minute consumed by an internal combustion engine.[17]

            An article in Popular Mechanics reports that Brown’s Gas cannot even increase the miles per gallon (MPG) of your vehicle, and that the only real savings come from tampering with your engine, which may confuse the anti-smog controls.[18]

            “Water-fueled” cars should not be confused with hydrogen-fueled cars where the hydrogen is produced elsewhere and used as fuel or where it is used as fuel enhancement. ” – http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxyhydrogen

          • david55

            According to wikipedia Randell mills ,Santilli ,rossi ,lenr ,cold fusion , hho are fringe science and fringe scientist if not fraud , do you have something more to add ? why you even come here to read about fringe science ?

          • US_Citizen71

            I don’t consider LENR fringe science. I consider it cutting edge. There are multiple
            scientific papers to back it up from all over the world from government
            sponsored and private labs.

            HHO Gas on the other hand does not have the same backing of
            multiple scientific papers. Tested and accepted science show the creation of H2
            and O2 molecules when electrolysis is done. Please show a reputable paper
            showing HHO to be the product of electrolysis of water. Videos showing ‘look
            bro it caught on fire’ do not count as H2 and O2 burn when mixed. Electrolysis
            of water is a 200 year old technology that currently has been abandoned outside
            of high school chemistry classes due to its inefficiency when compared with
            processes like steam reformation of methane to produce hydrogen.

            Passing a mixture of H2 and O2 over a metallic catalyst such
            as palladium or platinum is not a new discovery (class demonstration plan from
            the University of Minnesota circa March 2000 – http://www.chem.umn.edu/services/lecturedemo/info/Hydrogen_and_Platinum.html).

          • david55

            whole work of Randell mills and Santilli are based on hho gas they are two big player
            and highly knowledgeable and educated guy in LENR field and their technology is near to commercialization and you say hho are fringe science but you believe in lenr, can you say to me what is lenr ?

          • US_Citizen71

            Don’t mix Mills with Santilli. Santilli is claiming creation of HHO from electrolysis. Mills is subjecting water to a high current spark which heats water to the point that the bonds break and form mono-atomic H and O. Apples and oranges.

          • david55

            So randell mills doesn’t believe in hho according to you but still he write paper about it.

            Randell mills new paper about soft x-ray continuum radiation from HOH catalyst
            http://www.blacklightpower.com/wp-content/uploads/papers/ContHOH.pdf

          • US_Citizen71

            HOH is just another way of writing H2O or water it is not HHO/Brown’s gas. HOH shows the bonding of a water molecule two hydrogen atoms bonded to a single oxygen atom. HHO would describe a hydrogen atom bonded to hydrogen atom that is also bonded to an oxygen atom. This would mean that hydrogen atom in the middle is bonded to both an oxygen atom and a hydrogen atom. This would exceed the number of available ionic bonds that a single hydrogen atom has, hence Santilli’s creation of the “magnecular bond”, which has not been proven to exist by anyone other than Santilli.

            My original request was “Please show a reputable paper showing HHO to be the product of electrolysis of water.” Mills doesn’t use electrolysis so please move on to another example.

          • david55
          • US_Citizen71

            A couple of exchanges on Vortex does not equal a paper. For evidence they are nothing but anecdotes and conjecture.

          • david55

            Mike Carrell is a close friend of randell mills and study his theory for 20 years

            http://newenergytimes.com/v2/news/Mallove/DrEugeneMallove-MC.shtml

          • US_Citizen71

            Your link goes to an article titled ‘Tribute to Dr. Eugene Mallove’ and doesn’t mention electrolysis at all.

          • david55
          • US_Citizen71

            BLP’s process is not electrolysis, so I guess I have to assume you have nothing to backup the HHO from electrolysis claim.

            Having used electrolysis in AP Chemistry years ago in high school as a source for hydrogen and oxygen in several different experiments it is not a magical mystery to me. If the top of your container used for electrolysis is separated you get H2 on one half and O2 on the other. We determined this with various indicators and chemicals reactions that required one or the other. We never found the mythical magical HHO gas in all of the hours of electrolysis we did. All I’m asking is for evidence not extraordinary evidence to counter the experiments I did with my own two hands. But you do not seem to be able to that, instead you pull in strawmen and unrelated topics.

          • david55

            Your problem is that you think only way to generate hho is electrolysis,another way to generate hho is high voltage spark that is what happening in lightning everyday . i think you didn’t read
            Mike Carrell explanation about HOH

            ”It is easy to see BLP’s HOH as ‘really’ Browns’ Gas, written HHO. Brown’s
            Gas is that collected from the electrolysis of water, which when ignited
            seemed to yield more energy than required to electrolyze it. If one
            **studies** Mills’ work with the catalysis of H, there is a curious
            relationship. It happens that under certain circumstances, ionized O can
            catalyze hydrino production, and H can auto-catalyze. An electric spark
            produces a brief plasma. Mills’ HOH is an abbreviation for *nascent* H2O, a
            free molecule not involved in any liquid. Mills’ ‘solid fuels’ achieve this
            by sophisticated chemistry. It is conceivable that nascent H2O is created
            by the spark in burning Browns’ Gas. The ‘excess energy’ phenomenon could be
            hard to reproduce without an understanding of the BLP phenomena.”

          • US_Citizen71

            I’m not going to wade into Mills’ theory. There is an old saying ‘blind them with brilliance or baffle them with BS’ I do not have the training or knowledge to tell which he is doing. I can tell his process has nothing to do with electrolysis, so attempts to attach HHO creation via electrolysis to his process to me appears to be using the 2nd half of that old saying. I can tell I will not likely ever convince you of my view nor will you likely ever convince me, so I will agree to disagree.

          • david55

            I don’t know whether this convince you or not but as you know whole cold fusion saga
            started by fleischmann pons experiment with electrolysis of water inside a bottle containing platinum metal, what is result of water electrolysis ? hho gas so you see whole cold fusion effect
            was because of hho gas bubble reacting with platinum metal but because this reaction was inside of water it was so weak and limited .if fleischmann thought about that he could invent h-cat 2 decade ago.

    • Guest

      150 years ago ???
      You don’t see an issue with this ??
      150 years to develop it under the carpet ?
      Time to wake up people……

  • Obvious

    The efficiency of the auto catalytic convertor, with hardy any PGEs compared to the mass of substrate, to me is most surprising part. Has anyone tried this with catalytic heater material?

    This lighter link has some more details of Pt auto ignition. http://www.toledo-bend.com/VCL/articles/index.asp?request=catalytic

  • Fortyniner

    The Making Of The Term “Conspiracy Theorist”

    http://personaladvisory.com/2013/08/20/the-making-of-the-term-conspiracy-theorist/

    “Recent studies by psychologists and social scientists in the US and UK suggest that contrary to mainstream media stereotypes, those labeled “conspiracy theorists” appear to be saner than those who accept the official versions of contested events:”

    http://beforeitsnews.com/conspiracy-theories/2013/07/cia-invention-of-the-phrase-conspiracy-theory-to-block-questions-on-jfks-assassination-is-one-of-the-most-successful-propaganda-initiatives-of-all-time-2453052.html

    • homersage

      Thanks for the validation Fortyniner. It takes much courage to swim against the mainstream in an attempt to convince others that the golden age is upstream of the manufactured current they are all unknowingly floating down-chasing all the “bright and shiny hings” placed before them, in a state of manufactured fear (terrorism), separation/division (religion/politics/race//class), and scarcity (suppressed free energy and cures for disease).

      Not that courage is necessary to do this in the comment section of a website, but certainly with family and friends. It can be a pretty lonely journey, but it’s getting easier as the mass awakening gathers pace. I have been on it for going on ten years now after concluding 911 is not what we have been told. The collapse of building 7 makes it easy. Few even remember it fell as though in a controlled demolition-despite the fact that it was not impacted by an airliner. The war on “terror” was the objective all along. Search “Major General Smedley Butler, war is a racket”-very telling.

      I can give many search terms for those who wish to inform themselves and draw their own conclusions…

      If we want to take back our power it begins with our family, friends and neighbors. Then our community and local governments. They prefer we took to the streets-this is NOT the answer. All we really need to do is opt out of the system by removing our consent. Simple to conceive, difficult to do, but the stakes are so high we must.

      Justin is trying to take back his power and I salute him for having the courage to do so.

  • david55

    According to randell mills paper only radiation in HHO reaction with catalyst is “Soft X-rays”.
    that partly is harmless, Hard x-rays can penetrate skin and soft x–rays can hardly
    penetrate your skin “Soft X-rays have energies in the 0.09 to 2.5 keV range,
    whereas hard X-rays are in the 1-20 keV range”

    http://classblogmeister.com/blog.php?blog_id=1113063&mode=comment&blogger_id=280343

  • david55

    According to randell mills paper only radiation in HHO reaction with catalyst is “Soft X-rays”.
    that partly is harmless, Hard x-rays can penetrate skin and soft x–rays hardly
    penetrate your skin “Soft X-rays have energies in the 0.09 to 2.5 keV range, whereas
    hard X-rays are in the 1-20 keV range”

    http://classblogmeister.com/blog.php?blog_id=1113063&mode=comment&blogger_id=280343

  • HiggsFied

    This is really mind blowing bad science. Justin makes the statement that he believes his H-Cat is over unity without doing any proper scientific testing like calorimetry. What he is doing is akin to burning a hole in a piece using a magnifying glass and the sun. When using the magnifying glass you get fire, without it there is just gentle radiant heat. Because I can set fire to the paper is not proof that the magnifying glass is an over unity device. It’s all about power density; that is he is focusing his 23W of electrical energy – 75W (electrical input) x 30% (HHO conversion efficiency) – on to a small spot in the catalytic converter. Over time it will get quite hot as you are integrating the input energy and it’s being stored inside a little metal oven. Which brings me back to the sun and its use to power solar ovens, which get very hot and are really quite small. Get my drift!

  • HiggsFied

    This is really mind blowing bad science. Justin makes the statement that he believes his H-Cat is over unity without doing any proper scientific testing like calorimetry. What he is doing is akin to burning a hole in a piece using a magnifying glass and the sun. When using the magnifying glass you get fire, without it there is just gentle radiant heat. Because I can set fire to the paper is not proof that the magnifying glass is an over unity device. It’s all about power density; that is he is focusing his 23W of electrical energy – 75W (electrical input) x 30% (HHO conversion efficiency) – on to a small spot in the catalytic converter. Over time it will get quite hot as you are integrating the input energy and it’s being stored inside a little metal oven. Which brings me back to the sun and its use to power solar ovens, which get very hot and are really quite small. Get my drift!

    • Guest

      You are right !
      We should just quit, right? we should not even try to better the shitty world we live in?
      This analogy of yours is absolute Rubbish,

      • Higgsfield

        Your missing the point. This sort of a false claim from Justin does nothing to advance LENR. Have you looked at his video and seem the red spot. Please explain why my analogy it’s rubbish.

    • bachcole

      I get your drift, most of which has merit, except the harsh part. If we can’t do anything without scientific proof, then we wouldn’t get anywhere. The explorers and discoverers MUST necessarily do many things WITHOUT scientific proof.

  • Higgsfield

    Your missing the point. This sort of a false claim from Justin does nothing to advance LENR. Have you looked at his video and seem the red spot. Please explain why my analogy it’s rubbish.

  • Spyrit

    The peer review process is corrupt, like everything else in society. I wondered what would happen if all these scientists got together and created an open source aspect with LENR, the internet was open source and look how successful it is today. I mean why does the peer review process stop at critques? Wouldn’t it be more useful to spot the flaws of an experiment and try to correct them? LENR seems to function in different processes, different approach’s, wouldn’t it be better if all the scientists could work together on the different approach’s, under a creative common’s license.

    At present, human beings are being held back in progress by the system of scarcity, when scarcity isn’t real, any more, these days we end up wasting more then we consume, demand has to be manipulated via advertising, and seems like the advancements in technology these day tend to be disruptive to the system, and all these new discoveries work poorly with an outdated way of doing things, outdated infrastructure, and so on.

    The problem isn’t supply or demand but distribution of not only goods and services but of people as well, we don’t need to live by a water source any more, we can put water where ever we want it. Mechanization of most industries, means people are free to do better things with their lives, however the system of scarcity won’t allow for people to be educated in something else (without a huge debt) when their jobs have been mechanized. Open source could benefit society in a number of aspects, but greed only benefits a few, in only 1 way.

    • I don’t see general corruption, but big structure that cause unproductive behavior.

      The peer-review process is structurally leading to groupthink, because you depend on the opinion of your peer. it works well when the consensus is good, which is frequent in low productivity period.
      During highly productive revolution it block all.

      In that period, the wild wild west spirit of business is creating incentive to innovate despite the peer-pressure.
      this is why I defent the freedom of people like Rossi to file patents, to sell licence, to make money… otherwise nobody will try to be rich by raising his finger in front of the consensus.

      many people think that business is bad , kill freedom. in fact the problem is not business, is that some people because of powerful others, are prevented to be economically free. democracy, anti-trust law, anti-corruption laws, patents laws, land ownership, protect the freedom of weak economic actors against powerful people.

      we should give freedom to people to make their own science, to make their own industry, to make their own job, without asking to big corps or big government, just asking to random interested partners… we can even protect them from the consequence of their failure, not totally, but enough for them to try again and be more careful. we can even help them to fail early and retry quickly.
      the opposite of current policies.

      • Spyrit

        You need to think outside the box, the carrot on the stick mentality, is flawed, scientific evidence shows that monetary gain adds no incentive to creativity. it’s relevance, not greed that motivates, did Einstein pursue physics because he was getting paid for it? Business is bad for science, it’s also bad for human progress, if business was as good as you say would we be facing the problems we face today? Would American children be forced to starve even though the fast food industry wastes 1.3 billion tons of food every year? That’s enough food to feed every man,woman, and child on the planet, let alone American children, by using Aeroponics, (which is much more efficient) instead of agriculture we could increase food production 10 fold, we could grow indoors, no need for pesticides.

        3 D printing as it evolves, people will have the means to create the things they use, build homes, Industry has been mechanized, tell me how does a socio-economic system like the scarcity system going to survive that, as people become displaced by machines? Or will progress be defeated by greed? And more and more people will find themselves in a state of poverty. The monetary system doesn’t free people, or science, or creativity, or progress, it only holds everything back.

        The biggest wasted resource in the world today, is the human resource, imagine if 7 billion+ informed people were working on the common goal of progress. Maybe someday we will get past the greed, move towards creating resources we use rather than depleting the planet of them.

        • The problem of cold fusion denial is that Einstein was deified, and not Edison of Bell labs or Breguet or Wright Brothers…

          An I’m not observing that we are less safe, in lower health than our parents. It seems the specificity of current period is that we love theory, we hate progress, we want to go back to ideal and thus to the past we don’t know… A definition of fundamentalism.

          http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/events/reith_99/week3/week3.htm

          there is less and less poors, environement is better and better managed despite increase of population. fecundity is lowering quickly with wealth. poverty is decreasing quickly, violence and wars are having less and less impact…
          however we are more and more aware of those problems… making the wealthy of us feel that things get worse.

          we are in a pre-totalitarian integrist Malthusian crisis… I’m waiting for the next Maslow window for us to discover the progress we enjoyed, especially for the poorest.

          I know a mix couple. the wife, farmers family, discovered that she would not have to sell few of her children to improve the family lifestyle… was not evidence, and she was happy to learn that. Thanks to China opening economy and minds.

  • Spyrit

    The peer review process is corrupt, like everything else in society. I wondered what would happen if all these scientists got together and created an open source aspect with LENR, the internet was open source and look how successful it is today. I mean why does the peer review process stop at critques? Wouldn’t it be more useful to spot the flaws of an experiment and try to correct them? LENR seems to function in different processes, different approach’s, wouldn’t it be better if all the scientists could work together on the different approach’s, under a creative common’s license.

    At present, human beings are being held back in progress by the system of scarcity, when scarcity isn’t real, any more, these days we end up wasting more then we consume, demand has to be manipulated via advertising, and seems like the advancements in technology these day tend to be disruptive to the system, and all these new discoveries work poorly with an outdated way of doing things, outdated infrastructure, and so on.

    The problem isn’t supply or demand but distribution of not only goods and services but of people as well, we don’t need to live by a water source any more, we can put water where ever we want it. Mechanization of most industries, means people are free to do better things with their lives, however the system of scarcity won’t allow for people to be educated in something else (without a huge debt) when their jobs have been mechanized. Open source could benefit society in a number of aspects, but greed only benefits a few, in only 1 way.

    • I don’t see general corruption, but big structure that cause unproductive behavior.

      The peer-review process is structurally leading to groupthink, because you depend on the opinion of your peer. it works well when the consensus is good, which is frequent in low productivity period.
      During highly productive revolution it block all.

      In that period, the wild wild west spirit of business is creating incentive to innovate despite the peer-pressure.
      this is why I defent the freedom of people like Rossi to file patents, to sell licence, to make money… otherwise nobody will try to be rich by raising his finger in front of the consensus.

      many people think that business is bad , kill freedom. in fact the problem is not business, is that some people because of powerful others, are prevented to be economically free. democracy, anti-trust law, anti-corruption laws, patents laws, land ownership, protect the freedom of weak economic actors against powerful people.

      we should give freedom to people to make their own science, to make their own industry, to make their own job, without asking to big corps or big government, just asking to random interested partners… we can even protect them from the consequence of their failure, not totally, but enough for them to try again and be more careful. we can even help them to fail early and retry quickly.
      the opposite of current policies.

      • Spyrit

        You need to think outside the box, the carrot on the stick mentality, is flawed, scientific evidence shows that monetary gain adds no incentive to creativity. it’s relevance, not greed that motivates, did Einstein pursue physics because he was getting paid for it? Business is bad for science, it’s also bad for human progress, if business was as good as you say would we be facing the problems we face today? Would American children be forced to starve even though the fast food industry wastes 1.3 billion tons of food every year? That’s enough food to feed every man,woman, and child on the planet, let alone American children, by using Aeroponics, (which is much more efficient) instead of agriculture we could increase food production 10 fold, we could grow indoors, no need for pesticides.

        3 D printing as it evolves, people will have the means to create the things they use, build homes, Industry has been mechanized, tell me how does a socio-economic system like the scarcity system going to survive that, as people become displaced by machines? Or will progress be defeated by greed? And more and more people will find themselves in a state of poverty. The monetary system doesn’t free people, or science, or creativity, or progress, it only holds everything back.

        The biggest wasted resource in the world today, is the human resource, imagine if 7 billion+ informed people were working on the common goal of progress. Maybe someday we will get past the greed, move towards creating resources we use rather than depleting the planet of them.

        • The problem of cold fusion denial is that Einstein was deified, and not Edison of Bell labs or Breguet or Wright Brothers…

          An I’m not observing that we are less safe, in lower health than our parents. It seems the specificity of current period is that we love theory, we hate progress, we want to go back to ideal and thus to the past we don’t know… A definition of fundamentalism.

          http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/static/events/reith_99/week3/week3.htm

          there is less and less poors, environement is better and better managed despite increase of population. fecundity is lowering quickly with wealth. poverty is decreasing quickly, violence and wars are having less and less impact…
          however we are more and more aware of those problems… making the wealthy of us feel that things get worse.

          we are in a pre-totalitarian integrist Malthusian crisis… I’m waiting for the next Maslow window for us to discover the progress we enjoyed, especially for the poorest.

          I know a mix couple. the wife, farmers family, discovered that she would not have to sell few of her children to improve the family lifestyle… was not evidence, and she was happy to learn that. Thanks to China opening economy and minds.

          • Spyrit

            You’re not observing as well as you think. The denial of access to the things people need is running rampant, if things in the world were as peachy as you allow yourself to believe, the global rash of uprisings, due to a manipulated system of scarcity would beg to differ.

            I’ll consider your point of reference to the farmer’s family, had the wife been informed (educated) would she even be in the position of having to consider sacrifice of her family? Sacrifice in of itself is a scarcity system value, that is highly unacceptable, given our current state of technology, the detriment of one for the benefit of another, is a bit psychotic, don’t you think?

            Fundamentalism is prevalent in those very few who control much of the world’s resources, they believe without question that we are still in a state of scarcity, which isn’t the case. The next time you go shopping observe the products that are being made, that just don’t sell, a huge waste of resources, which the people, who do without are forced to pay for those mistakes.

            In order to maintain this system we have to consume and consume, but what happens to this system when people make the shift from consumer to prosumer? When people no longer feel the need to buy things they don’t need? Ask yourself do you live with only the things you need, or do you hoard more than you need? How many things do you have actually serve a purpose? Do you attach identity of others to things? Think about how at even the personal level to exist without questioning the system itself, would in fact be what fundamentalism really is.

            In the case of cold fusion, it wasn’t Einstein’s theory they were checking, it was their wallets, let’s face it the hot fusion people stood to loose a lot, if they allowed cold fusion to progress.