How Big of a Deal is Cold Fusion/LENR?

Thanks to all the readers who have helped identify the various companies and organizations working in the cold fusion/LENR field. Some were new, others were familiar, and some just forgotten. When I put them all in a list, I was quite surprised with the number of groups involved. It shows that there is considerable interest in the field, which seems to be growing. One thing’s for sure — there are many serious people willing to put time, energy, and money into cold fusion, because they think that despite the field largely being ignored and/or ridiculed it is something worth pursuing.

It has all made me wonder about the big picture. Just how big of a deal is cold fusion, anyway? We talk about it day in, day out here, and in some ways I am so immersed in the day-to-day news and discussion that I’m not sure if I’m in a position to easily evaluate its potential.

Some people have talked about cold fusion as being the most important scientific/technological discovery in the history of the planet, others see it as being significant, but not on such a grand scale. Still others see LENR as being so far an interesting phenomenon, but not as terribly useful as we have yet to see any practical application springing from it.

So my question to throw out to the ECW readership is how important a discovery is cold fusion? How do you think it measures in terms of importance for the human race? Throughout history there have been certain discoveries and invention that have changed history, and profoundly affected the lives of billions of people — fire, gunpowder, the movable type printing press, the steam engine, the internal combustion engine, aviation, telegraphy, telephony, photography, radio, television, nuclear fission, computers, and the internet are some watershed inventions that come to mind.

My personal opinion is that cold fusion has the potential to be a major discovery that could transform our world in very important ways if the reaction can be successfully controlled and stabilized, and if it can attain significant temperatures and COPs. I think Mike McKubre made an important point when he said that cold fusion would be come really useful and economically viable if a system could attain a COP of 10 (producing ten times more energy than is input) at a temperature of around 500 C, This would allow for the production of enough electricity to self sustain a cold fusion system with some energy left over.

I know it’s very, very early days for cold fusion (despite it being out in the public consciousness for almost 25 years), but when you think of its potential, how do you think it could compare to some of the major discoveries we have seen throughout history — and why?


  • Billy Jackson

    A lot of this will be hard to answer, your going to get everything from hope and dreams for free energy to space flight. cold fusion has a lot of benefits. how will we benefit from it? who knows. but its a bright future and I’m sure there are possibilities we haven’t even thought of yet.

  • Billy Jackson

    A lot of this will be hard to answer, your going to get everything from hope and dreams for free energy to space flight. cold fusion has a lot of benefits. how will we benefit from it? who knows. but its a bright future and I’m sure there are possibilities we haven’t even thought of yet.

  • Billy Jackson

    A lot of this will be hard to answer, your going to get everything from hope and dreams for free energy to space flight. cold fusion has a lot of benefits. how will we benefit from it? who knows. but its a bright future and I’m sure there are possibilities we haven’t even thought of yet.

  • Billy Jackson

    A lot of this will be hard to answer, your going to get everything from hope and dreams for free energy to space flight. cold fusion has a lot of benefits. how will we benefit from it? who knows. but its a bright future and I’m sure there are possibilities we haven’t even thought of yet.

  • Kim

    I see it as the only possibility left for humanity.

    Its a yes or no question. There is no in between on this.

    Respect
    Kim

    • Bob

      I think you mean, “Do or do not. There is no try.” (Yoda)

  • winebuff

    When the diapers come off cold fusion
    it will be a paradym shift in energy, transport,
    And most of all geopolitics will be turned on its head.
    😮

    • Quiet Wine Guy

      It will certainly change how people talk about wine and compare the different wineries.

      • The world isn’t ready for such a revolution…

        • Quiet Wine Guy

          LOL … 😉 . . . my point is that the implementation of LENR will have a deep effect on our culture. It will enable us to change what we focus on, what we value as meaningful and worthy of pursuing, and what we now choose to assign to the dark history of bad and destructive ideals. And, as we are social creatures, we will talk about it and act upon what we value.

          Wine just happens to be one core element of our civilization. It is an iconic element of poetry, a component of religious ritual, and a part of a wonderful dinner with family and friends on a Saturday night.

          Compared to the implementation of LENR, changing how we talk about wine is meaningless, but it reflects the fundamental change in our culture created by the implementation of LENR. It will happen . . . it just sounds funny and irrelevant to say so.

          If you were choosing a wine, one was made by a founder who used $$$ from owning large coal mines to build the winery, worked fervently to delay LENR and political supporter of Steve Forbes owner of the news organization where Mark Gibbs was fired, the other was made by a family which focused upon renewable farming and energy including solar panels at the winery, which would you choose?

          • Roger Bird

            I am hoping that LENR will help more people to grow their own food. This will increase the pressure on our current producers to grow food more healthfully.

          • Quiet Wine Guy

            +1

  • nathan

    I think, that cold Fusion will change everything.

    Just think of the future possibillities for (almost) free energy everywhere. No need anymore to shut down the lights or any thinking about how you can save the world by saving more energy.

    You have a CF car? Great, no need anymore to fuel your car. Endless miles / kilometers. Want to travel around the world with your camper? Just have fun! Full comfort, just like in a real home. Next question: Why _should_ I even live in a house? Not really necessary anymore.

    People are getting empowerd, even the poorest ones should benefit in a fairly short time. Its not just the access to power for their homes. Now they are probably able to produce.

    Like the posters before me said: Geopolitical change everywhere. OPEC will fall for sure. Countrys will fall, if they are not prepared. But maybe its even a chance for starting a world peace progress, because this equals us everywhere.

    The environment will recover. No need anymore to pollute the world, because with free power, there is no excuse to install saftey and cleaning mechanisms. No smog from burning coal or fuel cars.

    And all this is just scrathing at the surface….

    Hope is high 😀

  • Simone

    I am sure LENR will be game changing.. what we are seeing now is nothing else than the tip of the iceberg. We will be able to optimise LENR and achieve results we can’t even think of right now. We could in maybe 20 years achieve energy power outputs that normal Industrial Gas Turbine Plants with just a small container maybe? Who knows!.. the only thing I am sure of, is that if we start looking outside our mind borders, thinking outside the box and not inside the rules we get thought at school. We might make a breakthrough revolution in all fields and possibly discover also other greats things.
    We are already studying mind breaking things like superconductivity using graphene, quantum entanglement and quantum computer.. all are studied at the border or physis and quantum meccanics, but what we should start to do is experiment in the unknown. What we do believe is true, is nothing else than a simplified model of the real world. These simplified models are limited to specific conditions but everything we discover something outside these models we claim it is a fraud and block it.

  • dbg

    I recall reading a few years back ‘The Physics of Star Trek’ by Lawrence Krauss. A lot of the technology in Star Trek is theoretically possible, but dependent on huge amounts of energy and processing power being available, iirc (I’m not proposing we’ll be teleporting to Mars any time soon though…).

    The development of the internet has brought information and communication to vast numbers of people, who are increasingly aware of democracy, human rights and the power structures that oppress them. I’m almost certain CF/LENR would never have seen the light of day if it weren’t for the instant communication and documentation the internet allows.

    CF/LENR has the potential to bring cheap and clean heating and electricity to the masses by decentralising energy grids and breaking down the monopolies enjoyed by oil companies and their bankers. It may provide the energy to run cars, planes, boats and trains. Transport costs make up something like 60% of the cost of food.

    http://oilprice.com/Energy/Oil-Prices/How-Oil-Prices-Affect-The-Price-Of-Food.html

    More importantly, CF/LENR may help to address global pollution and climate change. I’m with the 99% on AGW. We are largely responsible and it may already be too late.

    Worldwide, unrestricted availability of the internet; oodles of processing power and memory; and abundant, cheap energy like CF/LENR would most definitely change everything. Maybe our descendants will get to live in a version of Banks’ The Culture. I hope so!

  • Sandy

    LENR-powered heating, lighting, harvesting and transportation systems will make it economical to grow fruits and vegetables all year long in greenhouses. Those fruits and vegetables will not have to be sprayed with fungicides, so cancer rates will drop substantially. People will live longer and healthier lives.

    • Omega Z

      Cancer may decline but,
      If one lives long enough, they will develop cancer.
      It can be triggered by the Oxygen we need to live in the 1st place.
      It’s inevitable. Not If. Just When…

  • George N

    Probubly going to be a necessary double edged sword. Will eventually enable space expansion, but may eventually lead to advanced weapons such as tesla’s death ray if the COP is high enough

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    It’s gonna take a HOT product. A close to 100% repeatable/reliable product.
    When & if that hits the market, it’ll be calamity in the boardroom.
    I wish Steve Jobs was around to launch it, with the ringing of a giant gong.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    It’s gonna take a HOT product. A close to 100% repeatable/reliable product.
    When & if that hits the market, it’ll be calamity in the boardroom.
    I wish Steve Jobs was around to launch it, with the ringing of a giant gong.

  • Bitplayer

    As big as the initial commercialization of electricity? Or, relative to that, as big as the shift from mainframes to personal computers? Perhaps, relative to the initial commercialization of electricity, as big as the change from mainframes too smart phones. That was a big change.

  • Bitplayer

    As big as the initial commercialization of electricity? Or, relative to that, as big as the shift from mainframes to personal computers? Perhaps, relative to the initial commercialization of electricity, as big as the change from mainframes too smart phones. That was a big change.

  • Ophelia Rump

    The difference which LENR could make on Earth.
    ____________________________________

    If man does not get off this planet in a meaningful way:
    The effort toward global civilization which we are some where about one half of the way toward achieving for most of humanity cannot survive more than a few human lifespans. The Technological Era would either end or become a novelty to the then diminishing numbers of humanity.

    The difference LENR could make for Space:
    ____________________

    With LENR man could actually live “In Space itself, off planet. , if we had the other technology to do so. Traveling freely across vast distances or simply inhabiting space.

    Without LENR man could not travel very far in space, the trips would be destination trips, local exploration and one way short distance trips. Fuel and power would always the limiting factor.

  • Ophelia Rump

    The difference which LENR could make on Earth.
    ____________________________________

    If man does not get off this planet in a meaningful way:
    The effort toward global civilization which we are some where about one half of the way toward achieving for most of humanity cannot survive more than a few human lifespans. The Technological Era would either end or become a novelty to the then diminishing numbers of humanity.

    The difference LENR could make for Space:
    ____________________

    With LENR man could actually live “In Space itself, off planet. , if we had the other technology to do so. Traveling freely across vast distances or simply inhabiting space.

    Without LENR man could not travel very far in space, the trips would be destination trips, local exploration and one way short distance trips. Fuel and power would always the limiting factor.

  • Christopher Calder

    It’s as big a deal as man learning how to make fire at will and to grow crops instead of just picking wild berries and hunting wild animals. LENR will redefine the human race.

    The next major turning point after LENR will be human genetic engineering. I predict that revolution will start in China and spread around the world over time.

  • It’s as big a deal as man learning how to make fire at will and to grow crops instead of just picking wild berries and hunting wild animals. LENR will redefine the human race.

    The next major turning point after LENR will be human genetic engineering. I predict that revolution will start in China and spread around the world over time.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Making a judgement is premature, but its potential is hard to overestimate. One point of view is that man and other life needs three ingredients: energy flux, liquid water and nutrients (rock). The ingredients are common, but the triple combination is rare and is currently realised only on relatively few spots on Earth. For example, ocean surface waters have water and energy flux, but lack nutrients whereas deep water has nutrients and water but lacks energy flux, deserts have energy flux and nutrients, but lack water, etc. If LENR makes it possible to produce energy flux anywhere, it may also make life possible everywhere.

    • Justin Church

      I agree with you whole heartily. In my opinion, the practical uses and low cost of this technology will become the single most important technology to the progression and maturity of the human race. All the basic necessities and means of providing them can be obtained with LENR. At the end of the day it can really only be thought of as a tool. The Human Factor has and will always be the primary reason people on this planet suffer, go hungry, thirsty, or remain cold. Until the day we as individual human beings decide we are going to embrace open development and study of LENR research, I’m afraid the real problems we face today will never be solved even if we have the technology to bring a utopia to planet earth doesn’t mean humanity as a whole is ready to embrace that idea. I’m ready for that Utopia and I’m doing something about it, Are You? That is the real questions we should be asking…

      • orsobubu

        Justin: I’m enthusiast for your work. However, will not help develop a revolutionary technology if you do not revolutionize the social relations of production, class relations between the exploiters and the exploited. These relationships, which lead regularly to overproduction, unemployment, economic crises and wars, are unaffected by coal plants, nuclear plants or LENR generators. Obviously, scientific progress is a powerful accelerator of social dynamics, as seen in the case of the steam engine and the development of the capitalist system. According to materialism (as opposed to religious idealism), are the factors of production,(ie the technologies, property relations, capital, social classes, etc.) that determine everything else, but you must enter dialectically into the equation the direct and organized action by man, who changes rivolutionizing, these relationships, so making progress on his conscience and history itself and gradually freeing him from the chains that nature and physical evolution of his intellect have imposed (historical materialism -dialectical). You could say that open-source distribution will be a powerful trigger for a change. Yes, but will the capitalist owners of the large means of production permit it, if they warn a danger for the ruling class to which they belong? Imagine that cold fusion is the key to the creation of a new society would be like to have believed that electricity would have put an end to inequality, hunger and conflicts in the world. Everyone can see that the opposite has occurred.

  • jousterusa

    How important is cold fusion? That depends on the leading scientists who make it happen in practical ways. If one of them ever manages to turn on a light bulb – something that $60 billion of hot fusion research has failed to do – acceptance will come very rapidly. I believe it was a mistake for Dr. Randell Mills not to develop the magnetohydrodynamic converter that is needed to convert thermal energy into electricity before his Jan. 28 hydrino demonstration, and there’s been no sign Andrea Rossi and the E Cat’s new owners are doing that, either. However, until they do so, it’s all basically pie in the sky. You can tell me I can go 1,500 miles on a liter of water only so many times until I have to say, “Do it. Prove it.” The day that happens, cold fusion will be like UFOs, unexplained and out of sight, out of mind.

    • nightcreature3

      I think it will take more than an MHD convertor to get breakeven, if the COP per bang is truly only 2.
      Graneau’s experiments were similar and the COP’s he registered were even less than that.

      One thing is for certain. I cannot imagine a garage tinkerer setting up something as elaborate as that!

      I think Mills’ earlier work had more in common with Moller’s atomic hydrogen generator, and the setups required, in practice, easier to achieve.

      http://jlnlabs.online.fr/mahg/index.htm

      • Fortyniner

        “The only hope for LENR is to be open-source..” I agree, but I’m reasonably sure that this phase of LENR deployment is quite a long way in the future, especially as we now have related processes that produce neutrons (it’s *nuclear* – so its *dangerous* – so only the *right people* can use it and keep the sheeple safe). First the energy cartels will ‘seize and squeeze’ and will use their political/media glove puppets to ensure that their cozy monopoly is undisturbed for as long as possible. IMO of course – I hope to be proven wrong as quickly as possible.

        btw – thats a brilliant ‘Munchian’ icon you’re using!

        • Allan Shura

          LENR is not the only process so cost effective domestic energy such as hydrogen (HHO) and others (note Hondas at home hydrogen generator for their cars could be expensive at first) can be a bridge
          to develop an private domestic application industry. The natural gas replacing biofuels is a bridge.

      • Fortyniner

        As you say, an MHD generator would be only a part of the answer at best. According to Wikipedia (probably accurate on this occasion) the best efficiency so far obtained is 32% of available enthalpy, so there would still be plenty of ‘waste’ heat to deal with.

        If Mills can better this by a significant margin, he could put his virtual reactor on the back burner while he made a fortune on the high efficiency MHD generator. Unfortunately at present that seems to be even more ‘virtual’ than the water vapour reactor.

        • Allan Shura

          I have been looking at the MHD process with not big a transformative innovation in the world since the mid 1970s. However there is a new conceptual path forward and that is redesign with plasma.

        • Allan Shura

          The internal combustion engine is only 50% efficient in those terms yet they are used in domestic generators. What is important is the cost of the input. There is also the reduced environmental impact and that is desired.

        • Omega Z

          Peter

          32% isn’t that bad. Especially if starting with a COP>80 on the energy output. It could work quite well. That would still provide 25 times over input. Right?

          1Kw gets 80Kw. 32% of 80 would be 25.6Kw

          • Fortyniner

            Its useable if the COP justifies it, but don’t forget that an MHD device producing a megawatt of power would require not only a constant supply of liquid He and N to keep the magnets cold, but also massive water cooling to prevent the device casing overheating, possibly melting. All this could push the overall efficiency down massively due to energy wastage, and could cost a fortune in liquid He in particular. The stuff is so expensive that blimp designers are now looking at He/H mixtures or even pure hydrogen again, despite the obvious dangers and difficulty in containing this gas.

            However I was really referring to the 60-70% not used and how it would it be managed. At current efficiencies you would have two megawatts of heat to dispose of for every MW from the MHD device. If the answer is ‘use it to boil water’ then why bother with MHD technology at all – just make the boiler/turbine/alternator a little larger and you would still get comparable efficiency of conversion to electricity, without all the complication of an MHD generator and its liquid gas supplies..

          • Omega Z

            Sorry, Not aware of what it takes for the MHD, But as for the waste heat, most power plants waste 60% or so of the generated heat.

            However higher efficiencies are always a good goal to shoot for.

    • Doktor Bob

      Dear Jousterusa

      Welcome into the discussion
      http://www.hydrobetatron.org/

      I do not know if you are new here in the community or active for a while but that link I posted is quite impressive because its basically a high school project – or originated from that. Their working with nickel nano powder and I think their COP is around 3 right now. (not sure)

      While there is several actors with “lightbuld” capacity its also important getting the information out there.
      It has to be delivered in a credible way so that people can tell the difference between one of many worthless “free energy technologies” or one that holds relevance that end up into something commercial.
      (also of course there are a few scammers out there)

      People are still waiting for the 1 mega watt open for visitors plants but we dont know when that will happen if ever so what we could do it set together a group that visits event – or – put together a set of equipment that can be transported around the world for different groups wanting to do demonstrations capable of also communicating at least the basics of the technologies.

      This would cost a bit of money

      For me personally I have not went into a crowd sourcing face because basically I do not have the social network needed – im afraid.

      When it comes to the cf community – possible we could pitch in 20 euros each a month and make a project like this come alive – on the other side of things MFMP does serious professional dedicated research driving progress forward and even they are not getting much money.

      *my loose thoughts*

      • Fortyniner

        Personally I’m just waiting to see what IH does next. If someone else beats them to the marketplace – even better. It’s a very big marketplace.

        I would rather like to see MFMP check out Mr Church’s ‘HHO’/catalyser thing though, under controlled conditions. I don’t think Celani wire is going anywhere as a power source, and it may be time for them to begin to look elsewhere for more easily verifiable systems.

        • US_Citizen71

          I would love to see some scientific research done on Justin Church’s experiment as well either to eliminate it or show that it is worth further study. If it produces more energy than it consumes it would be the ideal demo they are looking for due to its energy level.

          • Omega Z

            Interesting project, but if they want to get more people behind them, they need some numbers indicating a net gain.

        • Omega Z

          It would appear that the Nanor will be shipped for people to work with thus MFMP’s goal will have been preempted. So I agree they need to redirect their efforts.

  • jousterusa

    How important is cold fusion? That depends on the leading scientists who make it happen in practical ways. If one of them ever manages to turn on a light bulb – something that $60 billion of hot fusion research has failed to do – acceptance will come very rapidly. I believe it was a mistake for Dr. Randell Mills not to develop the magnetohydrodynamic converter that is needed to convert thermal energy into electricity before his Jan. 28 hydrino demonstration, and there’s been no sign Andrea Rossi and the E Cat’s new owners are doing that, either. However, until they do so, it’s all basically pie in the sky. You can tell me I can go 1,500 miles on a liter of water only so many times until I have to say, “Do it. Prove it.” Until the day that happens, cold fusion will be like UFOs, unexplained and out of sight, out of mind. Here’s a link to a US military paper on the MHD converter:
    http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=getRecord&metadataPrefix=html&identifier=AD0779594

    • nightcreature3

      I think it will take more than an MHD convertor to get breakeven, if the COP per bang is truly only 2.
      Graneau’s experiments were similar and the COP’s he registered were even less than that.

      One thing is for certain. I cannot imagine a garage tinkerer setting up something as elaborate as that!

      I think Mills’ earlier work had more in common with Moller’s atomic hydrogen generator, and the setups required, in practice, easier to achieve.

      http://jlnlabs.online.fr/mahg/index.htm

      • As you say, an MHD generator would be only a part of the answer at best. According to Wikipedia (probably accurate on this occasion) the best efficiency so far obtained is 32% of available enthalpy, so there would still be plenty of ‘waste’ heat to deal with.

        If Mills can better this by a significant margin, he could put his virtual reactor on the back burner while he makes a fortune on the high efficiency MHD generator. Unfortunately at present that seems to be even more ‘virtual’ than the water vapour reactor.

        • Allan Shura

          I have been looking at the MHD process with not big a transformative innovation in the world since the mid 1970s. However there is a new conceptual path forward and that is redesign with plasma.

        • Allan Shura

          The internal combustion engine is only 50% efficient in those terms yet they are used in domestic generators. What is important is the cost of the input. There is also the reduced environmental impact and that is desired.

        • Allan Shura

          The internal combustion engine is only 50% efficient in those terms yet they are used in domestic generators. What is important is the cost of the input. There is also the reduced environmental impact and that is desired.

        • Omega Z

          Peter

          32% isn’t that bad. Especially if starting with a COP>80 on the energy output. It could work quite well. That would still provide 25 times over input. Right?

          1Kw gets 80Kw. 32% of 80 would be 25.6Kw

          • Its useable if the COP justifies it, but don’t forget that an MHD device producing a megawatt of power would require not only a constant supply of liquid He and N to keep the magnets cold, but also massive water cooling to prevent the device casing overheating, possibly melting. All this could push the overall efficiency down significantly due to the energy required to compress and refine the liquid gases (even if that is done off site it would still be a part of the energy audit), and would cost a fortune in liquid He in particular. The stuff is so expensive that airship/blimp designers are now looking at He/H mixtures or even pure hydrogen again, despite the obvious dangers and difficulty in containing this gas.

            However I was really referring to the 60-70% enthalpy not used and how the ‘waste’ energy would it be managed. At current efficiencies you would have two megawatts of heat to dispose of for every MW from the MHD device. If the answer is ‘use it to boil water’ then why bother with MHD technology at all – just make the boiler/turbine/alternator a little larger and you would still get comparable efficiency of conversion to electricity, without all the complication of an MHD generator and its liquid gas supplies..

          • Omega Z

            Sorry, Not aware of what it takes for the MHD, But as for the waste heat, most power plants waste 60% or so of the generated heat.

            However higher efficiencies are always a good goal to shoot for.

    • Dear Jousterusa

      Welcome into the discussion
      http://www.hydrobetatron.org/

      I do not know if you are new here in the community or active for a while but that link I posted is quite impressive because its basically a high school project – or originated from that. Their working with nickel nano powder and I think their COP is around 3 right now. (not sure)

      While there is several actors with “lightbuld” capacity its also important getting the information out there.
      It has to be delivered in a credible way so that people can tell the difference between one of many worthless “free energy technologies” or one that holds relevance that end up into something commercial.
      (also of course there are a few scammers out there)

      People are still waiting for the 1 mega watt open for visitors plants but we dont know when that will happen if ever so what we could do it set together a group that visits event – or – put together a set of equipment that can be transported around the world for different groups wanting to do demonstrations capable of also communicating at least the basics of the technologies.

      This would cost a bit of money

      For me personally I have not went into a crowd sourcing face because basically I do not have the social network needed – im afraid.

      When it comes to the cf community – possible we could pitch in 20 euros each a month and make a project like this come alive – on the other side of things MFMP does serious professional dedicated research driving progress forward and even they are not getting much money.

      *my loose thoughts*

      • Personally I’m just waiting to see what IH does next. If someone else beats them to the marketplace – even better. It’s a very big marketplace.

        I would rather like to see MFMP check out Justin Church’s ‘HHO’/catalyser thing though, under controlled conditions. I don’t think Celani wire is going anywhere as a power source, and it may be time for them to begin to look elsewhere for more easily verifiable systems.

        • US_Citizen71

          I would love to see some scientific research done on Justin Church’s experiment as well either to eliminate it or show that it is worth further study. If it produces more energy than it consumes it would be the ideal demo they are looking for due to its energy level.

          • Omega Z

            Interesting project, but if they want to get more people behind them, they need some numbers indicating a net gain.

        • Omega Z

          It would appear that the Nanor will be shipped for people to work with thus MFMP’s goal will have been preempted. So I agree they need to redirect their efforts.

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        … Emilio Del Giudice, scientist at Hydrobetatron.org, passed away on January 31st….. It is a terrible loss for the LENR and the scientific community in general…

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        … Emilio Del Giudice, scientist at Hydrobetatron.org, passed away on January 31st….. It is a terrible loss for the LENR and the scientific community in general…

  • Fortyniner

    We’ve built a complex technological society that is utterly dependent on fossil fuels in order to function. Almost everything we do uses power in one way or another, and the contribution of non-fossil fuels (including nuclear) is very small in a world context. Without such fuels this incredibly complex structure would/will collapse progressively, and the loss of adequate food supplies alone would result in the deaths of billions, including within the ‘advanced’ nations. Yet these fuel supplies – with the possible exception of coal – are running out fast, and at some point production will begin to fall below demand, prices will begin to escalate beyond many people’s ability to pay, and human society would/will collapse from the bottom up (the poor first).

    Cold fusion or some comparable new energy source is therefore literally the only way that our current culture can continue to exist through and past the fossil fuel crisis. I would therefore rate it as more important than any single discovery ever made. Other inventions allowed societies to evolve in various ways, but this one will allow it to continue to survive – at least until the next crisis.

    • Donk970

      Not only that but all of this energy and technology has allowed us to create a completely unsustainable economic model that is collapsing now as we speak.

    • Job001

      It’s not so much energy as energy dependant resources we’re running out of. Everything has an energy component to mine or pump or heat or cool or process. Most materials can be produced from recycle or landfills or the Ocean given automation with cheap energy.

  • We’ve built, layer on layer, a complex technological society that is utterly dependent on fossil fuels in order to function, but which is literally unsustainable beyond a couple more decades, using available resources. Almost everything we do uses power in one way or another, and the contribution of non-fossil fuels (including nuclear) is very small in a world context. Without such fuels this incredibly vulnerable structure would/will collapse progressively, and the loss of adequate food and water supplies and their distribution systems alone would result in the deaths of billions, including within the ‘advanced’ nations. Yet these fuel supplies – with the possible exception of coal – really are running out quickly, and at some point production will begin to fall below demand, prices of everything necessary to stay alive will begin to escalate beyond many people’s ability to pay, and human society would/will collapse from the bottom up (the poorest first).

    The introduction of cold fusion or some comparable new energy source is therefore simply the only way that our current culture can continue to exist through and past the fast approaching fossil fuel crisis. I would therefore rate it as more important than any other discovery or invention ever made. Other inventions allowed societies to evolve in various ways, and have permitted our numbers to reach present levels, but only this one will allow that process to continue, and provide a way for the billions of people on the planet to survive without oil and gas – at least until the next crisis.

    • Donk970

      Not only that but all of this energy and technology has allowed us to create a completely unsustainable economic model that is collapsing now as we speak.

    • Job001

      It’s not so much energy as energy dependant resources we’re running out of. Everything has an energy component to mine or pump or heat or cool or process. Most materials can be produced from recycle or landfills or the Ocean given automation with cheap energy.

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

    World equilibria are managed by a restricted group of human beings, who exploit and allow the destruction of limited natural resources for the economic benefit of very few.
    Internet is a first step towards the improvement of humanity.
    LENR can be a major breakthrough thanks to the possibility of communicating, sharing experiences and applications, informing and updating.
    Clean and abundant, cheap energy for everyone seems like a very “leftie” idea in today’s global economic picture.
    The only hope for LENR is to be open-source, so that scientists and competent people worldwide can develop and apply different uses for the technology, then communicate, market it.
    When the technology will find one or more undeniable practical applications, the internet can do the rest.
    As we all have seen with the unfair dismissal of Fleischmann and Pons, without communication LENR is dead.

    • “The only hope for LENR is to be open-source..” I agree if we’re talking about private/domestic applications, but I’m reasonably sure that this phase of LENR deployment is quite a long way in the future, especially as we now have reports of related processes that produce neutrons (it’s *nuclear* – so its *dangerous* – so only the *right people* can use it and keep the sheeple safe). In the first phase, the energy cartels will ‘seize and squeeze’ and will use their political/media glove puppets to ensure that their cozy monopoly is undisturbed for as long as possible. IMO of course – I hope to be proven wrong as quickly as possible.

      btw – thats a brilliant ‘Munchian’ icon you’re using!

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        I agree completely with most (if not all) of your thoughtful comments.

        You are correct, power companies (and everyone else behind them) will not forfeit direct control (through energy supply, and bills) on us citizens. It is probably only through these large companies that we will see LENR implemented on any larger scale at its inception.

        As you say, the assumption of “danger” is likely/liable to be exploited in propaganda to protect the status quo ante.
        The Munchian icon (nuclear scream) I use was taken from activism (I have not seen it registered, not sure who originated it or I’d post the link) that I have found online after Fukushima for a referendum against “nuclear” – it does convey the concept for me.

        Just like your “mushroom” – at least in the way I have interpreted your icon.

        • “Kept in the dark and fed on…”

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        Power companies have direct control on people through energy supply and billing, with the necessary blessing of governmental bodies (who can be, we have witnessed i.a. with the NSA scandal, corruptible and shady in their publicly funded activities).
        In order to see LENR implemented, we shall probably be obliged to go through the existing large power supply companies and grid, and not before they are ready.
        Change, however, can be brought about more quickly if people with interests different than those predominant in restricted lobbies (call it passion, altruism, egocentricity, individual ambition, idealism) share their information for all applications of LENR.
        Hence, I still believe our only hope (as individual and to some extent autocratic citizens) is open sourcing.
        The person who has an idea should not fear being copied.
        There is money to be made even (I would argue more so) with open sourcing, both for he/she who has the idea and for the pupil surpassing the master (Tesla vs Edison?).

        • Donk970

          It seams to me that any business person with an ounce of common sense and enough understanding of LENR will have a business model that assumes loss of profitability over maybe a decade. Once a single LENR power plant goes into operation it will remove all doubt and all business risk to pursuing LENR and that will create a stampede of new R&D which in turn will drive down prices as more and more companies try to get in on the action. Basically a LENR power plant going into operation will be firing the starting gun at the biggest technology race in human history and all of the companies that are currently pursuing LENR know it.

      • Allan Shura

        LENR is not the only process so cost effective domestic energy such as hydrogen (HHO) and others (note Hondas at home hydrogen generator for their cars could be expensive at first) can be a bridge
        to develop an private domestic application industry. The natural gas replacing biofuels is a bridge.

      • Allan Shura

        LENR is not the only process so cost effective domestic energy such as hydrogen (HHO) and others (note Hondas at home hydrogen generator for their cars could be expensive at first) can be a bridge
        to develop an private domestic application industry. The natural gas replacing biofuels is a bridge.

    • Warthog

      ANY invention becomes “open source” after 28 years…..IF it is patented. Otherwise, key details will be kept as trade secrets, and possibly lost, as inventors die unexpectedly. That was the norm for all of history UNTIL the idea of recognizing “intellectual property” AS PROPERTY evolved.

      This is already being reversed, as the propensity of China to “expropriate” any and all technology without license causes a reversion to “trade secrets”.

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        …about inventors dying “unexpectedly”…. Martin Fleischmann passed away at 85, presumably of old age.
        Senectus ipsa morbus.
        Emilio Del Giudice (1/1/1940 – 31/1/2014) and Giuliano Preparata (1942-2000) “both died prematurely” according to the caption on the Hydrobetatron blog page.
        Interesting facts.

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        …about inventors dying “unexpectedly”…. Martin Fleischmann passed away at 85, presumably of old age.
        Senectus ipsa morbus.
        Emilio Del Giudice (1/1/1940 – 31/1/2014) and Giuliano Preparata (1942-2000) “both died prematurely” according to the caption on the Hydrobetatron blog page.
        Interesting facts.

    • Donk970

      Think about fire for a minute. Is there any company that controls fire? Even if there were patents on fire how would you enforce them? What about fuel? How could you control the use of fire through limiting access to combustable materials when those materials are everywhere? Profiting from an energy technology requires that either the fuel be difficult to acquire like oil or uranium or the technology itself is difficult to implement. All the indications are that LENR, like fire, has no natural choke point. Once LENR is understood it will be easy enough for a weekend diy project and the fuel, hydrogen and nickel are everywhere. There will be a brief period of time when a few corporations will control the technology but the simple fact that LENR exists and CAN be made to work will inspire countless people to start experimenting with it and before you know it everyone will be doing it.

  • Christina

    Aww c’mon, not this question again! Hasn’t lenr already been established as providing 10X the energy of gasoline engines? (Even if it does it initially only 2X, isn’t that great?)

    And aren’t people saying that with lenr we can actually have enough energy in engines to have flying cars?

    Seeing that some researchers’ engines’ are producing steam from engines running on lenr or related stuffs, isn’t it obvious that something good is happening?

    I know that when it comes to math, I missed the handing-out-brains stork, but really–We should be discussing how to excite our ninth graders to plan on going into lenr-research to produce who-knows-what a la Edison, Tesla, Einstein, etc.

    We should be giving children who are math and science savvy free rides. My upper-middle-class sister-in-law and her husband supported all their kids through college (non were STEM majors) because they noticed their friends’ children never made it through college because their upper-middle-class friends expected their own children to pay their own way through college.

    College is hard for STEM students; if you want your children to succeed in the future, encourage an education that includes math and science and then support your kid through college. (That should work if we ever get out of this recession/depression-fiasco.)

    Okay, I’m talking to the upper middle class, I know. Poor people like my parents were couldn’t do that. But this nation needs science and math majors. And ASAP!!!

    So if the child has the talent of math and science, the money for their education should be found and they should not have to pay it back; they should be asked to pay it forward by paying for college for some other worthy STEM major after they get well established in their fields.

    And then innovators should be supported, not scorned. Some of us are the children of the pioneers. What happened to us? Are we so busy supporting our sixties life style of love ’em and leave ’em especially if there’s a child that we can’t even pay attention to the fact that the country’s people are getting poorer and poorer every year–or so it seems.

    Get with the old plan. The plan our American ancestors had. Take government out of our lives. Support the work of the inventors by protecting it. And for goodness sakes, Patent Office, patent what comes in. Don’t tell scientists that their inventions don’t work until you’ve run the experiments. Otherwise it’s like telling God that His universe doesn’t work and isn’t that really dumb?

    Just a thought, my beloved United States of America.

    • Omega Z

      excite our ninth graders to plan on going into lenr-research

      Good Luck with that.
      There are kids that do & Kids that Don’t.
      Don’ts tend to greatly out number the Does.
      Most are waiting for someone else to do things for them.

      math and science savvy
      Yes, I know someone like that. Parents paid for it all.
      1 semester from graduating as an Engineer.
      Just Dropped out.
      Likes getting high & partying better. Such a Waste.

  • JJE

    I think the most important consequence will be the reduction of military conflicts. Indeed, the starting point of most wars are access to energy resources. If energy becomes available almost free to all…
    JJE

  • Job001

    As our energy source becomes 1,000,000 times more dense and ubiquitious our devastating footprint on Earth can be reduced maybe 100 times;
    Mine landfills and rebuild mountains rather than level mountains
    Raise aquaponic/hydroponic food rather than burn rainforest or disrupt Ocean populations
    Obtain Ocean minerals and water rather than disrupting continents ecosystems and weather
    Provide entirely local water and sanitation
    Terri-farm to avoid calamities as “Snowball or Scorched Earth”
    Permit fast aerial automated delivery anywhere anytime
    Permit mankind automated well-being to maximize wise choice
    Gradually reduce greed and crime as these become unnecessary.

    • Private Citizen

      This sword has two edges. 1,000,000 times more dense and ubiquitous weapons and armies will become commensurately cheaper and stronger. Individual psychos may well be able to make homemade LENR weapons. The carrying capacity of the earth will increase by orders of magnitude, until it hits the next disgusting equilibrium point of unsustainability, as it always has. Human greed will continue apace as it has since the beginning of man, along with inequality.

      By all means, welcome LENR, but refuse to be a Pollyanna. Those who think that plenty will fall from heaven and no one will want in their LENR utopia have a right to that opinion. Did the green farming revolution lead to a utopian world of peace and plenty? How about the advent of electricity? Steam? Domesticated animals? Bronze? Stone tools?

      From what I’ve tasted of desire, I hold with those who favor fire.

      • Job001

        Understand, it’s a long term non-pollyanna view presuming everyone gets above the $36,000/yr maximum for contented cows due to productivity. That may take at least 30 years from the world wide $12,400/yr at 3.6% present growth rate. $12,400 x 1.036^31 = $37,000/yr.
        For reduction in crime and greed, I presume it will take another generation or two past that point.

        • Private Citizen

          Sounds like unfalsifiable pollyanna prediction vs. equally unfalsifiable mixed pessimism/optimism.

          Readers may cite a history of mixed outcomes for tech advances, vs no history of utopia ever as support for the various arguments.

          only time will tell, assuming we get LENR

          • Job001

            Yep, humans love unfalsifiable utopias.
            i.e. Anti-CF pseudo-science status quo monopoly wealth extraction.
            i.e.Violates the LAWS OF SCIENCE BS.
            i.e.Corrupt political parties(both at least).
            My fault and the communication limits of blogs, I’m not trying to propose some utopia nor ideal but use reasonable science to understand where society is going.
            For instance, maximum happiness occurs around $36,000/yr, a level never before achieved world wide. New opportunities we can start to predict based upon places where these have been achieved exist once basic needs and maximum happiness are achieved.

          • Private Citizen

            Please elaborate on “Anti-CF pseudo-science status quo monopoly wealth extraction.” Is this some kind of movement you have discovered? Who are it’s members? Where can we find out more?

            Do you think welfare housing projects, where basic needs are met, are achieving maximum happiness? Maybe all they need are LENR heaters?

          • Job001

            Has their been an anti CF effort? Has this group used pseudo-science claims of impossible, incompetence, scam and fraud? Does wealth bias support wealth inequality and the status quo. Most assuredly.

            Welfare is not about meeting basic needs nor achieving maximum happiness, it’s about power and privilege and subsistence misery.

            LENR energy will be used by those who can afford it and will likely create great profits after obsolete investment write-offs.

      • Donk970

        It seams to me that any business person with an ounce of common sense and enough understanding of LENR will have a business model that assumes loss of profitability over maybe a decade. Once a single LENR power plant goes into operation it will remove all doubt and all business risk to pursuing LENR and that will create a stampede of new R&D which in turn will drive down prices as more and more companies try to get in on the action. Basically a LENR power plant going into operation will be firing the starting gun at the biggest technology race in human history and all of the companies that are currently pursuing LENR know it.

  • Job001

    As our energy source becomes 1,000,000 times more dense and ubiquitious our devastating footprint on Earth can be reduced maybe 100 times;
    Mine landfills and rebuild mountains rather than level mountains
    Raise aquaponic/hydroponic food rather than burn rainforest or disrupt Ocean populations
    Obtain Ocean minerals and water rather than disrupting continents ecosystems and weather
    Provide entirely local water and sanitation
    Dispose of chemicals by reduction to elements
    Terri-farm to avoid calamities as “Snowball or Scorched Earth”
    Permit fast aerial automated delivery anywhere anytime
    Permit mankind automated well-being to maximize wise choice
    Gradually reduce greed and crime as these become unnecessary bad habits.

    • Private Citizen

      This sword has two edges. 1,000,000 times more dense and ubiquitous weapons and armies will become commensurately cheaper and stronger. Individual psychos may well be able to make homemade LENR weapons. The carrying capacity of the earth will increase by orders of magnitude, until it hits the next disgusting equilibrium point of unsustainability, as it always has. Human greed will continue apace as it has since the beginning of man, along with inequality.

      By all means, welcome LENR, but refuse to be a Pollyanna. Those who think that plenty will fall from heaven and no one will want in their LENR utopia have a right to that opinion. Did the green farming revolution lead to a utopian world of peace and plenty? How about the advent of electricity? Steam? Domesticated animals? Bronze? Stone tools?

      From what I’ve tasted of desire, I hold with those who favor fire.

      • Job001

        Understand, it’s a long term non-pollyanna view presuming everyone gets above the $36,000/yr maximum for contented cows due to productivity. That may take at least 30 years from the world wide $12,400/yr at 3.6% present growth rate. $12,400 x 1.036^31 = $37,000/yr.
        For reduction in crime and greed, I presume it will take another generation or two past that point.

        • Private Citizen

          Sounds like unfalsifiable pollyanna prediction vs. equally unfalsifiable mixed pessimism/optimism.

          Readers may cite a history of mixed outcomes for tech advances, vs no history of utopia ever as support for the various arguments.

          only time will tell, assuming we get LENR

        • Private Citizen

          Sounds like unfalsifiable pollyanna prediction vs. equally unfalsifiable mixed pessimism/optimism.

          Readers may cite a history of mixed outcomes for tech advances, vs no history of utopia ever as support for the various arguments.

          only time will tell, assuming we get LENR

          • Job001

            Yep, humans love unfalsifiable utopias.
            i.e. Anti-CF pseudo-science status quo monopoly wealth extraction.
            i.e.Violates the LAWS OF SCIENCE BS.
            i.e.Corrupt political parties(both at least).
            My fault and the communication limits of blogs, I’m not trying to propose some utopia nor ideal but use reasonable science to understand where society is going.
            For instance, maximum happiness occurs around $36,000/yr, a level never before achieved world wide. New opportunities we can start to predict based upon places where these have been achieved exist once basic needs and maximum happiness are achieved.
            http://phys.org/news/2013-11-economic-happiness-sweet-gdp-person.html

          • Private Citizen

            Please elaborate on “Anti-CF pseudo-science status quo monopoly wealth extraction.” Is this some kind of movement you have discovered? Who are it’s members? Where can we find out more?

            Do you think welfare housing projects, where basic needs are met, are achieving maximum happiness? Maybe all they need are LENR heaters?

          • Job001

            Has their been an anti CF effort? Has this group used pseudo-science claims of impossible, incompetence, scam and fraud? Does wealth bias support wealth inequality and the status quo. Most assuredly.

            Welfare is not about meeting basic needs nor achieving maximum happiness, it’s about power and privilege and subsistence misery.

            LENR energy will be used by those who can afford it and will likely create great profits after obsolete investment write-offs.

          • Job001

            Yep, humans love unfalsifiable utopias.
            i.e. Anti-CF pseudo-science status quo monopoly wealth extraction.
            i.e.Violates the LAWS OF SCIENCE BS.
            i.e.Corrupt political parties(both at least).
            My fault and the communication limits of blogs, I’m not trying to propose some utopia nor ideal but use reasonable science to understand where society is going.
            For instance, maximum happiness occurs around $36,000/yr, a level never before achieved world wide. New opportunities we can start to predict based upon places where these have been achieved exist once basic needs and maximum happiness are achieved.
            http://phys.org/news/2013-11-economic-happiness-sweet-gdp-person.html

  • Clearly LENR have a huge impact on the long term.
    I’m quite concerned today that the industrialization may be slower than expected, reaching the usual average of 5 years from lab to shelves, thus in 2016-2017.

    Anyway it will have a huge impact on our minds, on economic anticipations. Western world today is lost in depression, convinced that all is getting worse, not aware of emerging countries getting out of poverty at an historical pace.

    LENR is only energy, thus only 10% of our GDP. it seems a very small impact compared to the impact of agrarian revolutions, of industrialization… But I suspect it will free many domain of our productivity , our comfort, allowing much more gains than the initial 10%. LENR have huge impact on autonomy, density, pollution, locality, economic freedom, political independence…

    just see the impact of moving from horse transport to steam locomotive… not much if you just look at the consumption of horse transportation at that time…

    • malkom700

      I think you are very underestimated the impact of LENR. Only reduce pollution is essential. Perhaps oblivious to the fact that energy is present in all spheres of the economy, and the impact this may have the character of a geometric series.

  • Clearly LENR have a huge impact on the long term.
    I’m quite concerned today that the industrialization may be slower than expected, reaching the usual average of 5 years from lab to shelves, thus in 2016-2017.

    Anyway it will have a huge impact on our minds, on economic anticipations. Western world today is lost in depression, convinced that all is getting worse, not aware of emerging countries getting out of poverty at an historical pace.

    LENR is only energy, thus only 10% of our GDP. it seems a very small impact compared to the impact of agrarian revolutions, of industrialization… But I suspect it will free many domain of our productivity , our comfort, allowing much more gains than the initial 10%. LENR have huge impact on autonomy, density, pollution, locality, economic freedom, political independence…

    just see the impact of moving from horse transport to steam locomotive… not much if you just look at the consumption of horse transportation at that time…

    • malkom700

      I think you are very underestimated the impact of LENR. Only reduce pollution is essential. Perhaps oblivious to the fact that energy is present in all spheres of the economy, and the impact this may have the character of a geometric series.

  • Louis Liebenberg

    Recent evidence of methane release in the Arctic suggest that we may face Runaway Global Warming resulting in human extinction within a few decades – potentially as soon as 2030 – see http://arctic-news.blogspot.com/ The only way to reverse Runaway Global Warming will be to rapidly implement new forms of clean energy that can provide an economically viable means of extracting carbon from the atmosphere. LENR may well prevent the extinction of humans.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Planet Earth will get along nicely regardless of what man does. How do you think the methane got deposited in the Arctic? We’re overdue for an ice age and that’s when LENR will really be appreciated. We’re overdue for a destructive solar flare and that’s when we’ll appreciate distributed power.

      • Marc Irvin

        Popular Science Fiction (sci-fi) is the best place to look for a clear predictions of the importance of LENR technology. A long time ago (maybe 90 years) Isaac Asimov described a technological Renaissance (Foundation Trilogy) that lead to Galactic colonization. The center piece, in contrast to his Robot tech predictions, was a miniature nuclear power plant that could fit in the palm of your hand. Recent sci-fi epics like Star Wars, Star Trek, and Star Gate all have examples impactful high density energy generator that make tons of electricity. Nasa knows how to make many things today that are Sci-fi like, they only lack the watts needed to make them happen. Couple robotics and limitless energy and you have the world where only creative minds need work, and the rest of the population gets living wages from the taxes levied on robot productivity. That’s in the back ground social descriptions of life in the Star Trekkers universe.

        • Donk970

          …”Couple robotics and limitless energy and you have the world where only creative minds need work, and the rest of the population gets living wages from the taxes levied on robot productivity.”… Here you hit on a crucial issue in our current socio/economic/political debate. The mechanical slave (automated assembly lines, robotics etc.) has enabled increases in productivity with simultaneous decreases in labor. Bottom line is that we don’t need to fully employ our workforce for companies to make a profit. This reality is at odds with our deep seated nineteenth century belief that only lazy people don’t work and lazy people don’t deserve our help. The question everyone needs to answer is how to accommodate the mechanical slave (or even human quasi slave) in our society in such a way that nobody starves.

          • Job001

            “Lazy people bias” goes back thousand of years. It maybe a tough nut to crack.

            I suspect if everyone can “own” their productivity this “bias” will be overcome.

            Evidence, when families owned “servants”(i.e. specialized labor) in Rome and other societies family productivity was sufficient to “make a respectable living”. Near future, owning intelligent adaptable robots likely will provide “local”, “sustainable” smart productivity with benefits.

            Why not, it worked in the past by ignoring servant people needs, it should work much better when we ignore robot needs-which are minimal.

          • Omega Z

            Until the Robots turn on Us.

            Then decide we are an unnecessary burden to be rid from their world.

          • Job001

            No need to anthropomorphize robots. I’ve owned them and told them what to do, they honestly don’t mind anything.

        • Daniel Maris

          LENR will not be free or even, for many decades, super-cheap. But it will provide clean energy at a very competitive price.

          There may well be a worldwide movement to abandon carbon based energy – especially coal – and replace with LENR.

          • Job001

            Evidence to the contrary is;
            Less than 1 year for introduction of the iPhone.
            Energy research “Intense”.
            Intense interest by young people in “sustainable”, “Local”.
            Political pressure for “freedoms”, “Low taxes”, “Anti corruption”, “Banking reform”
            International competition, “Intense”.
            Government stability worldwide “Shaky”.
            Sources “International”
            LENR providers “Highly Competitive”
            Many decades, na, it’s going to be a world shaking “happening”.

          • Daniel Maris

            A lot of statements. Not a lot of evidence. Rossi wasn’t giving his 1 MW reactors away for free.

          • Job001

            The statements are just circumstantial evidence we are likely to be surprised by the speed of transition. A typical human bias to think change will be slow or “normal”.

          • Omega Z

            It Will take decades.
            However, 30 years from now, people will be saying it happened quite fast tho even then it may not be complete..

            Apple actually spent 6 years just developing the I-phone. Cell phones had actually been around quite a while before they became mainstream, several decades before debut I-phones.

          • Job001

            Granted views will vary, especially based upon sad stories. Commercialization is being directed toward utilities initially in the US.
            World wide, it may happen faster where insurance and other corruptions take different forms.
            Energy producing units may be best in separate buildings if US insurance finds excessive risk to facilities and homes. Even NG causes 500 annual deaths per year from carbon monoxide, although usually due to poverty(not having CO detection or doing necessary furnace repair).
            Likewise, utilities will be formed that better deal with local needs, and existing utilities, if they adapt and survive will be forced to lower rates.

          • friendlyprogrammer

            Rossi’s LENR reactor is a glorified Lead Tube. Dollar store flashlights are much more complicated. None of the devices we have seen have been complicated. Blacklight Power, Jet energy, Andrea Rossi, HHO, etc.

            There will be a Million unemployed Solar and Wind scientists out there more than happy to build you a device in their basement.

            Whoever brings this to market should sell licensing stickers to approved home made Units. Otherwise people will simply Pirate the technology and leave them out.

            Many decades? If LENR is verified car companies will spend billions to convert their cars within a few years. Would you buy a gas car after LENR is verified? No… Hmmmmm

          • Omega Z

            Aside from the fact their more complex then you think,(If they were simple they’d be available already) You should study liability laws.
            Anyone who builds these & anyone who uses them are 100% liable for anything that should go wrong.

            My father, a small farmer had a wood stove in his garage. It was about -30` and high winds (About 50mph) created a draft(Damper fully closed) that sounded like a jet engine.
            Burnt everything to the Ground. Car-His cost. Garage-His cost, $1000’s in equipment-His costs. Fire department on premises($500)-His cost. Fire department watched it burn as at those temps & winds, all that came from the hoses was Snow Flakes. Insurance paid Zero. Had he had a neighbor & they had suffered damage, it would have been on him. Seems most Insurance will not cover heating systems of this nature even if purchased & installed commercially. They will cover a built-in fireplace with surcharges added & records of having it serviced are up to date.

            Incidentally, I have a friend who’s wife took out a loan for remodeling their Kitchen. Thus the Insurance company had to inspect the job for the loan requirements.
            He has a manufactured high efficiency wood stove. They Cancelled his Insurance. The Loan company has given him 30 days to find an Insurance company that will cover it for a fee or remove the wood-stove so he can get coverage, Or pay off the loan. If Not, they will start procedures to foreclose on the property to recover the loan.

            Also, with 1000’s of people building different variations, There will be no standard thus no standard systems to make economical use of these devices for electricity & such.

            So a smart person will wait until a major manufacturer produces them & has spent the millions to have them certified in a manor that liabilities fall on them rather then the consumer. And as there will be a standard, after market add-ons(Generators Etc..) & parts for repair & maintenance will be readily available rather then days or weeks waiting on your friend to come up with something.

            Aside from peace of mind & convenience, Being Mass produced, It will be much cheaper then anyone could build himself. Also, it will be guaranteed to work instead of possibly being an oversized paperweight.

          • friendlyprogrammer

            An electric Motor and generator are very simple to build and yet we did not have electricity for millions of years. It is simply the concept that needs to be understood.

            I am not suggesting everyone will build their own, but no company today could even license enough companies to keep up with the demand. I did say there would be a million unemployed Solar and Wind scientists making safe and efficient models.

            The Chinese are known to ignore copyright law. Maybe they will also sell them.

            If the Government charges too much for cigarettes, booze, or anything you see a bunch of Black Market items. Do you think this technology will not be copied?

            It is sad your dad had misfortune, but even he would likely power a car using a pirated tech than spend 20 years on a waiting list.

            Rossi reaction occurs in a simple chamber, and his earlier models used a sealed pipe. It is the ingredients that make it work.

            I understand law very well. I was always strong in English and took many law courses at the college level as that seemed a logical progression.

            I am arguing that any manufacturer of a cheap energy source must stay competitive or risk market saturation by competition.

            It certainly won’t take “Many Decades” to work its way into our lives as suggested in the post I am responding to.

        • Anthony Richards

          Surely not 90 years ago, Marc ? I thought theFoundation trilogy was written in the ’50s.

          • Marc Irvin

            Yes. It was me writing off the top of my head and an exaggeration for sure. Good to know someone bothered to consider my point. Foundation was first published in 1951, making it 60 years ago. Sixes and nines thing.

      • Donk970

        Ummm, the fossil record suggests that planet earth is always just one disaster away from another mass extinction. The infestation of humans on planet earth is the currently looming disaster.

        • Bruce Williams

          CF/LENR will cause the following (minimum list) to happen :
          1)Coal-fired power stations will be closed
          2)Then Gas
          3)Then nuclear
          4)No more Wind turbines will be approved
          5)Solar will scale down/stop (unless a solution is found to the cell efficiency problem)
          6)Coal mines will be shut
          7)The middle eastern countries currently bloated financially on their oil exports to the rest of the world will find that the only thing they can sell will be a small %age of their current production for chemical use (mainly plastics).
          ( I make no comment on the political implications of this).
          8)The power distribution networks (both gas and electricity) we use at present will have to be totally re-thought/abandoned.
          9)There will be a massive impact on employment with a change in job/profession for the majority of people, both workers and professionals.
          10)Cars /transport in general will become all electric………….probably the same for shipping : air travel ? not sure?

          etc.etc…..etc HOWEVER, the good news is that the world will be a better place, with lots of low/no cost energy available this will impact every aspect of our lives : health, leisure, travel,employment……..
          Unfortunately the time scale on this is going to be quite long and many vested interests will try to stop it/slow it down,but I personally believe it is unstoppable, the critical point has been passed.
          I hope this is a useful contribution to the discussion on this site which I have been following with great interest for some time.

        • Manuel Cruz

          The fossil record suggests that mass extinctions and glaciations are evenly placed in time, suggesting that they are caused by certain phases of the galactic year (probably the solar system passes near a giant comet belt at some step). It’s also known that Earth poles shift their polarity as the Earth gets more or less inclined during the translation of the solar system around our galaxy.
          Thinking of humans as a pest/virus is catalogued as a disease of the mind, by the way. It only looks like there are too many humans because medical and scientific advances in the XXth century have allowed several generations of humans to co-exist for the first time. Actually, it’s great that we have so many people, because that means we reached the critical mass of geniuses (0.2% of the population) that has brought us all those fantastic innovations that will soon end famines and poverty from the world.

  • Louis Liebenberg

    Recent evidence of methane release in the Arctic suggest that we may face Runaway Global Warming resulting in human extinction within a few decades – potentially as soon as 2030 – see http://arctic-news.blogspot.com/ The only way to reverse Runaway Global Warming will be to rapidly implement new forms of clean energy that can provide an economically viable means of extracting carbon from the atmosphere. LENR may well prevent the extinction of humans.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Planet Earth will get along nicely regardless of what man does. How do you think the methane got deposited in the Arctic? We’re overdue for an ice age and that’s when LENR will really be appreciated. We’re overdue for a destructive solar flare and that’s when we’ll appreciate distributed power.

      • Donk970

        Ummm, the fossil record suggests that planet earth is always just one disaster away from another mass extinction. The infestation of humans on planet earth is the currently looming disaster.

        • Manuel Cruz

          The fossil record suggests that mass extinctions and glaciations are evenly placed in time, suggesting that they are caused by certain phases of the galactic year (probably the solar system passes near a giant comet belt at some step). It’s also known that Earth poles shift their polarity as the Earth gets more or less inclined during the translation of the solar system around our galaxy.
          Thinking of humans as a pest/virus is catalogued as a disease of the mind, by the way. It only looks like there are too many humans because medical and scientific advances in the XXth century have allowed several generations of humans to co-exist for the first time. Actually, it’s great that we have so many people, because that means we reached the critical mass of geniuses (0.2% of the population) that has brought us all those fantastic innovations that will soon end famines and poverty from the world.

  • Gerard McEk

    Everyone will agree that we cannot maintain our crowded world without energy. Our existing energy sources are drying up and we need to find other resources quickly. Forty years ago I put all my hope on nuclear fusion and it looks like there is still 40 years to go before something usable is developed. I have lost my hope for that. Then I put my hope on the traveling wave reactor, but that will also take many years to develop en then I hoped for the thorium reactor. The last two have a good potential, but it will take too much time to develop. In 2011 I coincidentally became aware that Cold Fusion may arise from the ash of F&P. 22 years before that I followed every word of information I could find on Fleischmann and Pons and I was quite depressed that they were totally burned off by the scientific community.

    Now CF or LENR is life again and I believe in it: It will emerge! If it so easy to make (compared to Hot Fusion, the Traveling Wave Reactor and the Thorium Reactor) then it will put every invention in its shadow and it will give all people on earth a future. If LENR is not developed and we do not find another proper energy source, our world and way of living will be diminished to barbarism. So let us put our shoulders under LENR and bring it to life. Let’s give our children a future!

    • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

      Liberally quoting Alien Scientist, the scientific community that “burned off” the experiments of Fleischmann & Pons 20 years ago will bear the historical responsibility of having thrown human potential development (through a disruptive new – gagged and ridiculed – scientific discovery) 20 years back.
      Names, please. That’s what the public will be thirsty to know.

      • US_Citizen71

        Energy is the great equalizer that makes virtually any place habitable. With enough energy you can condense enough water out of the atmosphere in the middle of the desert to support a small city or provide heat and light to grow coconuts indoors in Siberia. The greatest promise that LENR has is making life livable any where we want to live. Tierra Del Fuego could become a thriving area if you could only grow enough food indoors, LENR could give you the energy to do so. LENR/Cold Fusion will likely be viewed and valued historically as being as big as the discovery of fire.

        • Marc Irvin

          Ian Douglas goes you one better in his Science Fiction epics. With enough energy we could design recycle based habitats any where including outer space. He described people owning homes in high Earth orbits, around our moon, and Mars even.

          • Omega Z

            Whatever we do, We need to generate gravity. Low or No Gravity isn’t healthy.

        • BroKeeper

          We should conquer these accessible lands before attempting to populate inhabitable ones millions of miles away.

          • US_Citizen71

            I agree, but we must never forget the likelihood of an asteroid out there with our name on it as well. For the survival of the species we should continue to strive to leave this rock in a permanent way.

          • BroKeeper

            Yep, just strap an inverted LENR powered rocket to it and let it fly-by. #===>

          • NT

            A better question; What good is Congress these days?

          • Omega Z

            No Offense, But you would be wrong.
            Much is going on behind the scenes that Few here are aware of. Petrodollar is just a tool for wealth redistribution. The U.S. has all the necessary resources to be totally self sufficient. It’s No accident that Brillouin is dealing with S. Korea & Cherokee is getting involved with Chinese Investors. Those controlling the situation are already implementing their plans to allow this new technology to come to market & People in the U.S. Government are already involved.

          • Job001

            It may be logical that the PTB aren’t acting out of ignorance but based upon a model of change. What evidence do you have?

      • Omega Z

        No, The vast majority of people will pay it no never mind. Only in the distant future when it matters no more will it possibly be discussed. Just as we discuss past discretion’s today. It no longer matters.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      We’re not crowded and our energy sources are not running out.
      If you are crowded it’s because you choose to live in a crowd.
      But you are correct that cold fusion will a great leap forward.

      • Gerard McEk

        Let us just hope that it will take a while before the demand of energy products exceeds the production of those.

      • Donk970

        Iggy, how do you get the sand out of your ears when your head is buried in the stuff all day?

        • Christina

          In the ’90’s, a book was published (Can’t remember its name) which was the result of research conducted by a bunch of Catholic scientists. They determined that this planet can sustain 90 billion–yes, with a “b”–people.

          It wasn’t a fly-by-night research project; it was good science; it did not please the media, so it was never brought to everyone’s attention.

          I read about it; I never got to read it. But the blurb said that all those people could live on this planet at the income and economic security that Japan had in the recession they had had at that time or shortly before.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          The World is safe for Radical life extension – We can research life extension to rejuvenate the old because we will use technology that is over 100 years old to provide food for over 100 billion people
          http://nextbigfuture.com/2014/02/we-could-use-technology-that-is-over.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2Fadvancednano+%28nextbigfuture%29

          • Roger Bird

            I wonder what we are going to do with all of that extra food for the 90 billion people who are not going to inhabit the Earth along with the 10 billion that are because women are rapidly moving towards having only 2 children each. http://www.gapminder.org/

    • jousterusa

      I have my doubts that the several companies, each worth about a trillion dollars, who collectively control the energy business will give up their central place in our economic life without violence. Along with violence will come vast waves of ridicule and huge warnings about disaster. There is no easy way to part a giant from its candy. The one viable route, which is person-to-person transmission – i.e., E-Cats and hydrino reactors that take the house next door off the grid – are not an inviting target for the myopic folks who can look at Atlantans freezing to death and not see a vast market for their heating devices. In the meantime, the giants will say, “If these things are so great, why didn’t they make them for the millions who lost power in this year’s winter storms?” There’s no good answer except that the inventors think they can go gigascale overnight when they get everything perfected. It’s the power of that illusion that keeps the status quo in place. Damn! My tin foil hat fell off!

      • Omega Z

        Jouster

        Remind yourself that None are ready yet. Not even Rossi.

        I recall when Reagan proposed spending of $2 Billion a year on Aids Research. Advocates were in an Uproar. He should Budget $8 Billion a year.

        A Researcher came forward & said, People, $10 Billion a year will not bring a cure any faster. Research takes time AND $2 Billion a year was “Far More” then they could use as it was.

        The Time to push was back in 89. Then it could have made a big difference. There was researchers who would have worked it if the funding had been available. But there was None.

        • Omega Z

          excite our ninth graders to plan on going into lenr-research

          Good Luck with that.
          There are kids that do & Kids that Don’t.
          Don’ts tend to greatly out number the Does.
          Most are waiting for someone else to do things for them.

          math and science savvy
          Yes, I know someone like that. Parents paid for it all.
          1 semester from graduating as an Engineer.
          Just Dropped out.
          Likes getting high & partying better. Such a Waste.

  • Gerard McEk

    Everyone will agree that we cannot maintain our crowded world without energy. Our existing energy sources are drying up and we need to find other resources quickly. Forty years ago I put all my hope on nuclear fusion and it looks like there is still 40 years to go before something usable is developed. I have lost my hope for that. Then I put my hope on the traveling wave reactor, but that will also take many years to develop en then I hoped for the thorium reactor. The last two have a good potential, but it will take too much time to develop. In 2011 I coincidentally became aware that Cold Fusion may arise from the ash of F&P. 22 years before that I followed every word of information I could find on Fleischmann and Pons and I was quite depressed that they were totally burned off by the scientific community.

    Now CF or LENR is life again and I believe in it: It will emerge! If it so easy to make (compared to Hot Fusion, the Traveling Wave Reactor and the Thorium Reactor) then it will put every invention in its shadow and it will give all people on earth a future. If LENR is not developed and we do not find another proper energy source, our world and way of living will be diminished to barbarism. So let us put our shoulders under LENR and bring it to life. Let’s give our children a future!

    • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

      Liberally quoting Alien Scientist, the scientific community that “burned off” the experiments of Fleischmann & Pons 20 years ago will bear the historical responsibility of having thrown human potential development (through a disruptive new – gagged and ridiculed – scientific discovery) 20 years back.
      Names, please. That’s what the public will be thirsty to know.

      • Omega Z

        No, The vast majority of people will pay it no never mind. Only in the distant future when it matters no more will it possibly be discussed. Just as we discuss past discretion’s today. It no longer matters.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      We’re not crowded and our energy sources are not running out.
      If you are crowded it’s because you choose to live in a crowd.
      But you are correct that cold fusion will a great leap forward.

      • Gerard McEk

        Let us just hope that it will take a while before the demand of energy products exceeds the production of those.

      • Donk970

        Iggy, how do you get the sand out of your ears when your head is buried in the stuff all day?

        • Christina

          In the ’90’s, a book was published (Can’t remember its name) which was the result of research conducted by a bunch of Catholic scientists. They determined that this planet can sustain 90 billion–yes, with a “b”–people.

          It wasn’t a fly-by-night research project; it was good science; it did not please the media, so it was never brought to everyone’s attention.

          I read about it; I never got to read it. But the blurb said that all those people could live on this planet at the income and economic security that Japan had in the recession they had had at that time or shortly before.

          • Christina

            That book is another thing that the media ignored just like they’re ignoring lenr. Hmmm!

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          The World is safe for Radical life extension – We can research life extension to rejuvenate the old because we will use technology that is over 100 years old to provide food for over 100 billion people
          http://nextbigfuture.com/2014/02/we-could-use-technology-that-is-over.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+blogspot%2Fadvancednano+%28nextbigfuture%29

          • Roger Bird

            I wonder what we are going to do with all of that extra food for the 90 billion people who are not going to inhabit the Earth along with the 10 billion that are because women are rapidly moving towards having only 2 children each. http://www.gapminder.org/

    • jousterusa

      I have my doubts that the several companies, each worth about a trillion dollars, who collectively control the energy business will give up their central place in our economic life without violence. Along with violence will come vast waves of ridicule and huge warnings about disaster. There is no easy way to part a giant from its candy. The one viable route, which is person-to-person transmission – i.e., E-Cats and hydrino reactors that take the house next door off the grid – are not an inviting target for the myopic folks who can look at Atlantans freezing to death and not see a vast market for their heating devices. In the meantime, the giants will say, “If these things are so great, why didn’t they make them for the millions who lost power in this year’s winter storms?” There’s no good answer except that the inventors think they can go gigascale overnight when they get everything perfected. It’s the power of that illusion that keeps the status quo in place. Damn! My tin foil hat fell off!

      • Omega Z

        Jouster

        Remind yourself that None are ready yet. Not even Rossi.

        I recall when Reagan proposed spending of $2 Billion a year on Aids Research. Advocates were in an Uproar. He should Budget $8 Billion a year.

        A Researcher came forward & said, People, $10 Billion a year will not bring a cure any faster. Research takes time AND $2 Billion a year was “Far More” then they could use as it was.

        The Time to push was back in 89. Then it could have made a big difference. There was researchers who would have worked it if the funding had been available. But there was None.

  • Fortyniner

    “Kept in the dark and fed on…”

  • Warthog

    ANY invention becomes “open source” after 28 years…..IF it is patented. Otherwise, key details will be kept as trade secrets, and possibly lost, as inventors die unexpectedly. That was the norm for all of history UNTIL the idea of recognizing “intellectual property” AS PROPERTY evolved.

    This is already being reversed, as the propensity of China to “expropriate” any and all technology without license causes a reversion to “trade secrets”.

  • Thomas Florek

    How big of a deal was the development of personal computing? How has cheap information processing affected our society? LENR will be that big.

    • Donk970

      Right now LENR is slowly and with great effort, pushing it’s way into mainstream thought. Even if the only thing that is achieved in the next five or ten years is acceptance in the mainstream that LENR is real, the world will change. Even now well known corporations like Toyota, Mitsubishi, STMicroelectronics as well as NASA and other government agencies are looking at LENR. LENR is just way to tempting to pass up even now when there is still so much doubt about it. Imagine when all doubt has been banished. LENR will prove to be very much like fire. Everyone will be doing it and nobody will be able to keep it for themselves because there’s no way to control access to the technology or the fuel.

  • Thomas Florek

    How big of a deal was the development of personal computing? How has cheap information processing affected our society? LENR will be that big.

  • tq

    In a few centuries, overpopulation will be a real problem in this planet,
    but free energy will allow us to double the available land by lowering the sea
    level destroying physically the water molecules. The Hydrogen will escape our
    atmosphere and the oxygen will enrich it making high altitudes more breathable.
    Lower count of red blood cells should be expected in future earthlings though.
    Anyway, easier than terraforming mars.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      I disagree about overpopulation. The Malthusians are ALWAYS wrong.

      Study: World Population to Stop Growing
      Despite a growth burst that more than doubled the global human population over the past 50 years, a study released today predicts it will peak at 9 billion by the year 2070 and then begin to decline. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=98371

      • tq

        I should have said could be instead of will be.

      • Omega Z

        And the Likely reason it will reach that point(9 Billion) will be because people will be living longer.

    • Donk970

      So in other words cheap energy will allow us to continue overpopulating the planet until we collide with some other resource limitation. Then what?

      • Omega Z

        “other resource limitations”
        Will follow quicker then we think when LENR is available.
        Luckily, “I Hope”, LENR will make recycling more economical & offset this.

  • tq

    In a few centuries, overpopulation will be a real problem in this planet,
    but free energy will allow us to double the available land by lowering the sea
    level destroying physically the water molecules. The Hydrogen will escape our
    atmosphere and the oxygen will enrich it making high altitudes more breathable.
    Lower count of red blood cells should be expected in future earthlings though.
    Anyway, easier than terraforming mars.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      I disagree about overpopulation. The Malthusians are ALWAYS wrong.

      Study: World Population to Stop Growing
      Despite a growth burst that more than doubled the global human population over the past 50 years, a study released today predicts it will peak at 9 billion by the year 2070 and then begin to decline. http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=98371

      • tq

        I should have said could be instead of will be.

      • Omega Z

        And the Likely reason it will reach that point(9 Billion) will be because people will be living longer.

    • Donk970

      So in other words cheap energy will allow us to continue overpopulating the planet until we collide with some other resource limitation. Then what?

      • tq

        Thats the good point with lenr. Nikel and hydrogen are everywhere and being a nuclear reaction (matter to energy conversion) millions of times more efficient than chemical reactions, cities in space slowly but surely travelling to other stars are within our reach.

      • tq

        Thats the good point with lenr. Nikel and hydrogen are everywhere and being a nuclear reaction (matter to energy conversion) millions of times more efficient than chemical reactions, cities in space slowly but surely travelling to other stars are within our reach.

      • Omega Z

        “other resource limitations”
        Will follow quicker then we think when LENR is available.
        Luckily, “I Hope”, LENR will make recycling more economical & offset this.

  • Stephen Savage

    It is the biggest thing to ever happen to our species by a huge margin…. nothing else even close.

    Metamorphosis .. We leave the worm body behind and spread our wings .. All things become possible!

    • dreamer

      When you pair unlimited energy with robotics you get incredible things. Picture a robot running through a field of corn burning every weed with a laser or a drone delivering your groceries in a cool box or a pizza in a hot box.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      If an electricity producing HotCat (or equivalent device) comes to existence and Rossi’s statements hold in terms of no radioactive residue, 6 month running time, no harmful other effects, then I certainly agree with you: nothing comes even close. If in addition they improve the controllability timescale so that applications in cars and such become possible, it’s a bonus on top of it. If, however, they cannot make electricity but only heat, then the impact is less; still impressive, but comparable to other inventions.

      • Omega Z

        Electricity is no problem. In fact easy. Economical as in more out then in is the issue. Much harder to accomplish.

  • Stephen Savage

    It is the biggest thing to ever happen to our species by a huge margin…. nothing else even close.

    Metamorphosis .. We leave the worm body behind and spread our wings .. All things become possible!

    • Pekka Janhunen

      If an electricity producing HotCat (or equivalent device) comes to existence and Rossi’s statements hold in terms of no radioactive residue, 6 month running time, no harmful other effects, then I certainly agree with you: nothing comes even close. If in addition they improve the controllability timescale so that applications in cars and such become possible, it’s a bonus on top of it. If, however, they cannot make electricity but only heat, then the impact is less; still impressive, but comparable to other inventions.

      • Omega Z

        Electricity is no problem. In fact easy. Economical as in more out then in is the issue. Much harder to accomplish.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      If an electricity producing HotCat (or equivalent device) comes to existence and Rossi’s statements hold in terms of no radioactive residue, 6 month running time, no harmful other effects, then I certainly agree with you: nothing comes even close. If in addition they improve the controllability timescale so that applications in cars and such become possible, it’s a bonus on top of it. If, however, they cannot make electricity but only heat, then the impact is less; still impressive, but comparable to other inventions.

  • Dennis Lynn

    My wife and I were fortunate enough to go to the African nation of Tanzania (the Serengiti) 2-1/2 years ago. 26 hours after leaving Tampa, Florida, and as we were approaching the runway at the airport in Kilimajaro (a major airport) at about 8:00 pm Tanzanian time, the KLM pilot gave us a “cockpit view” of the runway and surrounding area. Other than runway lights, total darkness. We had anticipated this, but it was still shocking to see. As we departed the plane (stairs, no tunnel), we were then struck by the pervasive smell of smoke in the air and we were told it was Tanzanians cooking their evening meals with fire. Ever since, I have thought about how the truly impoverished nations of this planet would benefit from having a clean, inexpensive source of energy. And even though Tanzania is one of the poorest nations on the planet, we witnessed a strong attempt by the people to recycle, conserve (dung used for fires, not wood) and use solar to heat water and recharge the few electronic devices they have.

    • GreenWin

      It is a great disappointment that large NGO health and environmental organizations e.g. WWF, GreenPeace, Sierra Club, NRDF, DWB, Gates, WHO, Audubon, etc. continue to ignore solutions to deforestation (cutting forest for cookstoves), drought, water borne disease, education, and much more. Why is this? There is little record of human nature being so lock-step ignorant on a global scale. There is usually one or two “rogue” nations or well funded groups who go their own way. Only one comes to mind with Cold Fusion – Sidney Kimmel.

      But funds and foundations charged with assisting the poor and the meek on planet, act as though under some threat against their person or family. Very few act with courage, integrity, decency – requirements for those who care more about doing what is good and right for their fellow man… than their organized fellows.

      • LookMoo

        Guess what.. NGO listed in you reply is big business. LENR is a threat to their business concept. And just think about it.. in Europe most governments tax people and justifies it with “we needs to do that to protect the environment”… what if I can reply “my lifestyle is carbon Natural”. Many NGO’s and parties will face huge problems to generate money for their clients..

  • Dennis Lynn

    My wife and I were fortunate enough to go to the African nation of Tanzania (the Serengiti) 2-1/2 years ago. 26 hours after leaving Tampa, Florida, and as we were approaching the runway at the airport in Kilimajaro (a major airport) at about 8:00 pm Tanzanian time, the KLM pilot gave us a “cockpit view” of the runway and surrounding area. Other than runway lights, total darkness. We had anticipated this, but it was still shocking to see. As we departed the plane (stairs, no tunnel), we were then struck by the pervasive smell of smoke in the air and we were told it was Tanzanians cooking their evening meals with fire. Ever since, I have thought about how the truly impoverished nations of this planet would benefit from having a clean, inexpensive source of energy. And even though Tanzania is one of the poorest nations on the planet, we witnessed a strong attempt by the people to recycle, conserve (dung used for fires, not wood) and use solar to heat water and recharge the few electronic devices they have.

    • GreenWin

      It is a great disappointment that large NGO health and environmental organizations e.g. WWF, GreenPeace, Sierra Club, NRDF, DWB, Gates, WHO, Audubon, etc. continue to ignore solutions to deforestation (cutting forest for cookstoves), drought, water borne disease, education, and much more. Why is this? There is little record of human nature being so lock-step ignorant on a global scale. There is usually one or two “rogue” nations or well funded groups who go their own way. Only one comes to mind with Cold Fusion – Sidney Kimmel.

      But funds and foundations charged with assisting the poor and the meek on planet, act as though under some threat against their person or family. Very few act with courage, integrity, decency – requirements for those who care more about doing what is good and right for their fellow man… than their organized fellows.

      • LookMoo

        Guess what.. NGO listed in you reply is big business. LENR is a threat to their business concept. And just think about it.. in Europe most governments tax people and justifies it with “we needs to do that to protect the environment”… what if I can reply “my lifestyle is carbon Natural”. Many NGO’s and parties will face huge problems to generate money for their clients..

  • Donk970

    Right now LENR is slowly and with great effort, pushing it’s way into mainstream thought. Even if the only thing that is achieved in the next five or ten years is acceptance in the mainstream that LENR is real, the world will change. Even now well known corporations like Toyota, Mitsubishi, STMicroelectronics as well as NASA and other government agencies are looking at LENR. LENR is just way to tempting to pass up even now when there is still so much doubt about it. Imagine when all doubt has been banished. LENR will prove to be very much like fire. Everyone will be doing it and nobody will be able to keep it for themselves because there’s no way to control access to the technology or the fuel.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    Snopes confirms that Al Gore was born 9 months after the UFO crash at Roswell.

    • GreenWin

      Correct Iggy. The Roswell Daily Record reported “RAAF captures Flying Saucer” on July 8th, 1947. Algore was born just nine months later on March 31, 1948. Creepy, right? And that suggests the whole climate campaign may be the work of ET’s with a poor driving record. http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/daily_record.html

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    Snopes confirms that Al Gore was born 9 months after the UFO crash at Roswell.

    • GreenWin

      Correct Iggy. The Roswell Daily Record reported “RAAF captures Flying Saucer” on July 8th, 1947. Algore was born just nine months later on March 31, 1948. Creepy, right? And that suggests the whole climate campaign may be the work of ET’s with a poor driving record. http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1/daily_record.html

  • dreamer

    When you pair unlimited energy with robotics you get incredible things. Picture a robot running through a field of corn burning every weed with a laser or a drone delivering your groceries in a cool box or a pizza in a hot box.

  • US_Citizen71

    Energy is the great equalizer that makes virtually any place habitable. With enough energy you can condense enough water out of the atmosphere in the middle of the desert to support a small city or provide heat and light to grow coconuts indoors in Siberia. The greatest promise that LENR has is making life livable any where we want to live. Tierra Del Fuego could become a thriving area if you could only grow enough food indoors, LENR could give you the energy to do so. LENR/Cold Fusion will likely be viewed and valued historically as being as big as the discovery of fire.

    • Marc Irvin

      Ian Douglas goes you one better in his Science Fiction epics. With enough energy we could design recycle based habitats any where including outer space. He described people owning homes in high Earth orbits, around our moon, and Mars even.

      • Omega Z

        Whatever we do, We need to generate gravity. Low or No Gravity isn’t healthy.

    • Christina

      How about we all own a share of the companies that make these things. The buying into them is going to be tricky, though. Ought we elect Congressmen/women and Senators who are economists and scientists. What good is an all-lawyers Congress these days?

      • NT

        A better question; What good is Congress these days?

      • Omega Z

        You Know that scientists & economists advise the politicians now, Right??? 🙂

    • Christina

      How about we all own a share of the companies that make these things. The buying into them is going to be tricky, though. Ought we elect Congressmen/women and Senators who are economists and scientists. What good is an all-lawyers Congress these days?

    • Brokeeper

      We should conquer these accessible lands before attempting to populate inhabitable ones millions of miles away.

      • US_Citizen71

        I agree, but we must never forget the likelihood of an asteroid out there with our name on it as well. For the survival of the species we should continue to strive to leave this rock in a permanent way.

        • Brokeeper

          Yep, just strap an inverted LENR powered rocket to it and let it fly-by. #===>

  • Marc Irvin

    Popular Science Fiction (sci-fi) is the best place to look for a clear predictions of the importance of LENR technology. A long time ago (maybe 90 years) Isaac Asimov described a technological Renaissance (Foundation Trilogy) that lead to Galactic colonization. The center piece, in contrast to his Robot tech predictions, was a miniature nuclear power plant that could fit in the palm of your hand. Recent sci-fi epics like Star Wars, Star Trek, and Star Gate all have examples impactful high density energy generator that make tons of electricity. Nasa knows how to make many things today that are Sci-fi like, they only lack the watts needed to make them happen. Couple robotics and limitless energy and you have the world where only creative minds need work, and the rest of the population gets living wages from the taxes levied on robot productivity. That’s in the back ground social descriptions of life in the Star Trekkers universe.

    • Donk970

      …”Couple robotics and limitless energy and you have the world where only creative minds need work, and the rest of the population gets living wages from the taxes levied on robot productivity.”… Here you hit on a crucial issue in our current socio/economic/political debate. The mechanical slave (automated assembly lines, robotics etc.) has enabled increases in productivity with simultaneous decreases in labor. Bottom line is that we don’t need to fully employ our workforce for companies to make a profit. This reality is at odds with our deep seated nineteenth century belief that only lazy people don’t work and lazy people don’t deserve our help. The question everyone needs to answer is how to accommodate the mechanical slave (or even human quasi slave) in our society in such a way that nobody starves.

      • Job001

        “Lazy people bias” goes back thousand of years. It maybe a tough nut to crack.

        I suspect if everyone can “own” their productivity this “bias” will be overcome.

        Evidence, when families owned “servants”(i.e. specialized labor) in Rome and other societies family productivity was sufficient to “make a respectable living”. Near future, owning intelligent adaptable robots likely will provide “local”, “sustainable” smart productivity with benefits.

        Why not, it worked in the past by ignoring servant people needs, it should work much better when we ignore robot needs-which are minimal.

        • Omega Z

          Until the Robots turn on Us.

          Then decide we are an unnecessary burden to be rid from their world.

          • Job001

            No need to anthropomorphize robots. I’ve owned them and told them what to do, they honestly don’t mind anything.

    • Anthony Richards

      Surely not 90 years ago, Marc ? I thought theFoundation trilogy was written in the ’50s.

      • Marc Irvin

        Yes. It was me writing off the top of my head and an exaggeration for sure. Good to know someone bothered to consider my point. Foundation was first published in 1951, making it 60 years ago. Sixes and nines thing.

  • robyn wyrick

    My guess is that LENR will become important, but the question is how much. There are any number of things that can go wrong. However, if it does in fact produce a revolution in energy, as we hope – one that renders fossil fuels and fission power essentially obsolete – then the impact will be enormous.

    1 – It could disrupt the global power structure now based on fossil fuels,
    2 – It could potentially end carbon-based climate change.
    3 – It could reduce the ability to use control of energy as a tool of intimidation or oppression.

    However, even if it disrupts the current power structure, that doesn’t mean it won’t replace it with another one, not based on who owns the energy, but on who owns the food or water or bombs. So, changing the energy sector will not make geopolitics go away any more than did the invention of electric or coal power. And generally that applies to the other benefits: there are many other pitfalls out there, and clean/abundant energy solves only a few.

    Nevertheless, LENR doesn’t arrive in a vacuum: there are disruptive revolutions occurring in fields like:
    * Materials science,
    * Robotics,
    * Artificial intelligence,
    * Communication, and
    * Biotech/medicine

    So, where the impact of Cold Fusion might be limited, it will work disruptively with fifty other technologies to change the face of the world in ways that are simply too great to imagine.

    • AdrianAshfield

      Robyn,
      I was going to write something about this but you beat me to it.
      There are so many disruptive technologies on the horizon I think the major problem will be political/economics. These things should herald near utopia but how is the government going to handle >40% unemployed? Will the present economic system break down?

      The best solution I have seen dates back to the 60s and was revived recently in Switzerland, that is to pay every adult citizen a living wage (the Swiss referendum suggested $2,800/month.) Can you see the US government doing that? I can’t.

      Maybe it will all happen so slowly the system will evolve. Certainly near free energy will make a lot of these other things possible and should do much to end poverty in the world, Lots of new consumers for a while at least. Probably the government will tax LENR in a desperate effort to stay alive. I think I am still paying PECO compensation in my monthly power bill for them not building/completing a nuclear power station, thanks to the Utilities Commission. So possibly we will be made to compensate the oil companies for loss of business. LOL.

      Adrian Ashfield

      • MasterBlaster7

        “Probably the government will tax LENR in a desperate effort to stay alive”

        Exactly, and not a potentially bad thing. The US spends like 1/2 a trillion on non-mobile energy a year and another 1/2 trillion on automotive energy. I bet that the US government will tax this energy, so that you are paying about the same amount in utilities and at the pump. I think the US will use those taxes….say somewhere around a trillion a year….to pay off the national debt. So, 20 or so years later….we can talk about, truly, free energy after the national debt has been paid off.

        • Omega Z

          “Probably the government will tax LENR in a desperate effort to stay alive”

          They may Try, But in reality, they shouldn’t have to. With Economic growth due to cheap energy, Demand for Welfare Etc, should decline as they should be working for a living & Paying Income taxes rather then collecting them.

          We’ll see when the time comes.

          • Governments tend to want our money right now rather than in a few years time.

      • Roger Bird

        Cultures can be very different. Giving everyone in Switzerland $2,800 per month sounds like a great idea. The Swiss are a very responsible people. Giving everyone in the USA $2,800 per month sounds like a disaster. Many of our people think that they are victims and would not be scurrying to find productive [painting, rock climbing, reading, weight lifting, poetry, cooking classes, gardening, a regular job, volunteering, etc. etc.] activity like the Swiss; they would be looking for drugs and alcohol.

        • AdrianAshfield

          The problem is far fewer people will be working due to automation and those who don’t have jobs won’t be able to afford to buy all the new goodies, health and food without something changing.
          It doesn’t really matter if the masses don’t choose to do the uplifting things you mention. Took me a while to get used to the idea.

          You can see the problem even now in the US where real wages are decreasing an many are living from hand to mouth, the real unemployment rate is probably ~20% Who is going to pay for the new factories, automated health diagnosis & treatment, vertical automated farming, houses and cars for the masses when there are few manufacturing jobs and even the professional classes are automated out of existence?
          Adrian Ashfield

        • robyn wyrick

          Sorry, but “The Swiss are a very responsible people” is some bitter ethnocentrism. There are so many ways that Swiss “responsibility” could be challenged (not the least, Swiss policies towards sheltering the fortunes of dictators). The issue is, if you think the Swiss to be responsible, do you base that on their nature or the policies that make up their society. Because, if it is their policies, then you should be all in favor of expanding those policies to other places. If you think it’s something intrinsic to their ethnicity, then you’re really off base. Either way, as an American, I take fair umbrage with your repugnant insult.

          With all due respect.

      • Job001

        The way to handle unemployment is by making people owners of automation that takes care of them. Two hundred years ago it was “160 acres and a herd of cows”, then it became “40 acres and a mule”, now it is “640 acres+ and automated farming”, soon it can be “1/2 acre of aquaponics and a robot”. In other words, local automation is evolving.
        First, large scale automation evolved. Next, small scale automation is evolving to meet expensive needs like elder care, child care, and family needs.
        It is difficult to imagine smart ideas before they are invented so, the future falsely seems less certainty than the past, a mistake of Malthusians(who ignore productivity gains and proven human adaptability).

        • Roger Bird

          Malthusians also ignore falling birth rates and the reason why. Malthusian-ism assumes constant positive population growth, and it just ain’t so.

      • Job001

        The way to handle unemployment is by making people owners of automation that takes care of them. Two hundred years ago it was “160 acres and a herd of cows”, then it became “40 acres and a mule”, now it is “640 acres+ and automated farming”, soon it can be “1/2 acre of aquaponics and a robot”. In other words, local automation is evolving.
        First, large scale automation evolved. Next, small scale automation is evolving to meet expensive needs like elder care, child care, and family needs.
        It is difficult to imagine smart ideas before they are invented so, the future falsely seems less certainty than the past, a mistake of Malthusians(who ignore productivity gains and proven human adaptability).

      • Omega Z

        It will be gradual & the Economic system will slowly adapt.
        Minimum wage is somewhat akin to a minimum living & will also be adjusted with automation. However that’s farther down the road as with the aging population, a shortage of workers will likely be experienced 1st. Automation will likely have to catch up/offset the shortage 1st.

        • Omega Z

          Note: When you purchase a product that latter is disposed of, You then pay for disposal service.
          So Yes, you will pay for the dismantling of the old. Either thru the New system(Surcharge) or higher taxes. In the U.S., there is a decommission fee built into the Energy costs of Nuclear Plants, But many of them are short of what will actually be needed so you’ll pay that also.

  • Donk970

    Think about fire for a minute. Is there any company that controls fire? Even if there were patents on fire how would you enforce them? What about fuel? How could you control the use of fire through limiting access to combustable materials when those materials are everywhere? Profiting from an energy technology requires that either the fuel be difficult to acquire like oil or uranium or the technology itself is difficult to implement. All the indications are that LENR, like fire, has no natural choke point. Once LENR is understood it will be easy enough for a weekend diy project and the fuel, hydrogen and nickel are everywhere. There will be a brief period of time when a few corporations will control the technology but the simple fact that LENR exists and CAN be made to work will inspire countless people to start experimenting with it and before you know it everyone will be doing it.

  • Bruce Williams

    CF/LENR will cause the following (minimum list) to happen :
    1)Coal-fired power stations will be closed
    2)Then Gas
    3)Then nuclear
    4)No more Wind turbines will be approved
    5)Solar will scale down/stop (unless a solution is found to the cell efficiency problem)
    6)Coal mines will be shut
    7)The middle eastern countries currently bloated financially on their oil exports to the rest of the world will find that the only thing they can sell will be a small %age of their current production for chemical use (mainly plastics).
    ( I make no comment on the political implications of this).
    8)The power distribution networks (both gas and electricity) we use at present will have to be totally re-thought/abandoned.
    9)There will be a massive impact on employment with a change in job/profession for the majority of people, both workers and professionals.
    10)Cars /transport in general will become all electric………….probably the same for shipping : air travel ? not sure?

    etc.etc…..etc HOWEVER, the good news is that the world will be a better place, with lots of low/no cost energy available this will impact every aspect of our lives : health, leisure, travel,employment……..
    Unfortunately the time scale on this is going to be quite long and many vested interests will try to stop it/slow it down,but I personally believe it is unstoppable, the critical point has been passed.
    I hope this is a useful contribution to the discussion on this site which I have been following with great interest for some time.

    • RR

      11)Russia goes bankrupt (30% of the Russian gdp comes from energy exports).
      12)Maybe disintegration of Russia on small countries.
      13)USA goes bankrupt (without petrodollar they can’t export a debt abroad).
      14)The new global economic crisis associated with the bankruptcy of the USA and Russia.
      15)After the crisis new, better world.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        13) EASY, just pay off debt with funny-money.

        • US_Citizen71

          The US could just print the money, but the resulting tsunami through the world financial markets wouldn’t be pretty.

          • Omega Z

            Citizen71

            Between Debt increase & QE, the U.S. has pumped about $15 Trillion plus into the Economy in the last 5 years.

            How do you not have a Robust U.S. Economy with that kind of money. When it is being distributed around the World. Note articles in the Financials have been published that should the U.S. Stop the QE right now all at once, Asian Housing markets would collapse & lose 50% or more value almost Immediately.

            So much going on & so few see it. The U.S., & Entities in the EU, Germany, France, UK, & a few others are propping up the World Economy.

            When the World Economy crashed, Well over $30 trillion dollars worth of assets Vaporized over night. Poof. (Asset Values are subjective more then real) Everything has been geared to re-inflate those assets. Because much debt is backed by those assets & should they disappear, technically all debts backed by them are in default.

            While Publicly everyone has been focused on spots like Greece Etc, the real Crisis has been much bigger & going on Quietly behind closed doors. Lest the World go into major panic & Collapse… Example-They’ve even allowed (6/1) up to $6 in debt to be temporarily covered by $1 in assets.

        • Roger Bird

          Aren’t we already do that?

      • friendlyprogrammer

        Just a bit pessimistic. I think it will create a boom unlike any in history. Everything will be made cheaper. Cheaper Supply, Cheaper delivery, Cheaper heating, cheaper A/C will apply to every nut and bolt in every widget. People will have more of the money siphoned off to the middle east to shop at home and hire local.

        • RR

          Point 13 is pessimistic other are realistic.

          US citizen use 250kwh, UE citizen use 125kwh energy per day (electricity, heating, transport, production etc.) if we reduce energy costs by for example 50% people will have more money to spend on products and services.
          So you’re right but cheap energy can cause havoc on the stock market (shares of oil companies fall) and this may result in a crisis.

      • Omega Z

        No Offense, But you would be wrong.
        Much is going on behind the scenes that Few here are aware of. Petrodollar is just a tool for wealth redistribution. The U.S. has all the necessary resources to be totally self sufficient. It’s No accident that Brillouin is dealing with S. Korea & Cherokee is getting involved with Chinese Investors. Those controlling the situation are already implementing their plans to allow this new technology to come to market & People in the U.S. Government are already involved.

        • RR

          I hope I’m wrong 🙂 but I like to consider all options.

          I think that cheap energy can cause chaos in the stock market, and this can cause a crisis.

          I also think that Petrodollar is important for the U.S., but I’m not an economist but a random guy from the internet.

          • Omega Z

            The Petrodollar is important for the U.S., but as a tool to transfer wealth to other countries.
            Look to where the most of Oil comes from in General, These countries have little else to generate a healthy economy. The intent is to provide Capital to these countries to build their economies.

            There is a method to TPTB Madness. to bring these countries to parity with the developed World. Raise the Standard of living in the middle east & alleviate the suffering makes it really hard for fanatic groups to recruit members. Not Impossible. Just very hard.

        • Job001

          It may be logical that the PTB aren’t acting out of ignorance but based upon a model of change. What evidence do you have?

  • Bruce Williams

    CF/LENR will cause the following (minimum list) to happen :
    1)Coal-fired power stations will be closed
    2)Then Gas
    3)Then nuclear
    4)No more Wind turbines will be approved
    5)Solar will scale down/stop (unless a solution is found to the cell efficiency problem)
    6)Coal mines will be shut
    7)The middle eastern countries currently bloated financially on their oil exports to the rest of the world will find that the only thing they can sell will be a small %age of their current production for chemical use (mainly plastics).
    ( I make no comment on the political implications of this).
    8)The power distribution networks (both gas and electricity) we use at present will have to be totally re-thought/abandoned.
    9)There will be a massive impact on employment with a change in job/profession for the majority of people, both workers and professionals.
    10)Cars /transport in general will become all electric………….probably the same for shipping : air travel ? not sure?

    etc.etc…..etc HOWEVER, the good news is that the world will be a better place, with lots of low/no cost energy available this will impact every aspect of our lives : health, leisure, travel,employment……..
    Unfortunately the time scale on this is going to be quite long and many vested interests will try to stop it/slow it down,but I personally believe it is unstoppable, the critical point has been passed.
    I hope this is a useful contribution to the discussion on this site which I have been following with great interest for some time.

  • Paul

    No, wind turbine will continue to be approved if their price will be competive with LENR (remember that wind energy is free, or COP equal to infinite). History teaches us that new technologies are put on the market at lower prices but not enough lower to beat the alternatives and so often they result loosers. This has always been an error in a huge number of case, not least Solyndra technology. So, we will see if the new LENR pioneers will learn from the errors of the past inventors of new technologies or not.

    • US_Citizen71

      If and when LENR is adopted for electrical production it will spell then of the bird blenders. Beyond their danger to wildlife, they are ugly, use a large amount of materials to produce, require dangerous maintenance to keep them running, they cannot be counted on to produce power at all times and generally are not able to be located near where the power they generate is needed requiring miles of cables and towers to bring their power to market.

      • GreenWin

        Correct. At least the windmills of old delivered their energy directly to work. Same with water mills. In those cases technology was built in-situ and converted to work on site. The idea of transmitting energy from distant locals to perform work locally is far outdated. The joke is, if Edison returned today, he would find little new in the grid infrastructure from when he died.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      A wind Turbine costs millions of dollars. I am talking of the big Government ones worth 2 million each. If a power source comes out that can be built for a few hundred dollars and can power cars and homes… Who do you think will win?

      Every LENR/Blacklight Power/HHO tech we have seen could be reproduced with off the shelf parts in someones Garage if they knew the theory and technique.

      Nobody will wait on a 10 year waiting list for LENR and people will just do it themselves.

  • Paul

    No, wind turbine will continue to be approved if their price will be competive with LENR (remember that wind energy is free, or COP equal to infinite). History teaches us that new technologies are put on the market at lower prices but not enough lower to beat the alternatives and so often they result loosers. This has always been an error in a huge number of case, not least Solyndra technology. So, we will see if the new LENR pioneers will learn from the errors of the past inventors of new technologies or not.

    • US_Citizen71

      If and when LENR is adopted for electrical production it will spell the end of the bird blenders. Beyond their danger to wildlife, they are ugly, use a large amount of materials to produce, require dangerous maintenance to keep them running, they cannot be counted on to produce power at all times and generally are not able to be located near where the power they generate is needed requiring miles of cables and towers to bring their power to market.

      • GreenWin

        Correct. At least the windmills of old delivered their energy directly to work. Same with water mills. In those cases technology was built in-situ and converted to work on site. The idea of transmitting energy from distant locals to perform work locally is far outdated. The joke is, if Edison returned today, he would find little new in the grid infrastructure from when he died.

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        Right. So many complain that windmills are ugly…
        Coal plants, gas plants, nuclear plants are so aesthetically pleasing! Emissions are so picturesque.
        A windmill is ugly for some, peaceful to watch for others – if obtaining energy without emissions or waste in the environment (coal, nuclear, gas, etc) is at all an objective.
        Windmills are a bridge technology, until something more efficient can be developed. The war of dislikes against windmills is incomprehensible.

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        Right. So many complain that windmills are ugly…
        Coal plants, gas plants, nuclear plants are so aesthetically pleasing! Emissions are so picturesque.
        A windmill is ugly for some, peaceful to watch for others – if obtaining energy without emissions or waste in the environment (coal, nuclear, gas, etc) is at all an objective.
        Windmills are a bridge technology, until something more efficient can be developed. The war of dislikes against windmills is incomprehensible.

    • US_Citizen71

      If and when LENR is adopted for electrical production it will spell the end of the bird blenders. Beyond their danger to wildlife, they are ugly, use a large amount of materials to produce, require dangerous maintenance to keep them running, they cannot be counted on to produce power at all times and generally are not able to be located near where the power they generate is needed requiring miles of cables and towers to bring their power to market.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      A wind Turbine costs millions of dollars. I am talking of the big Government ones worth 2 million each. If a power source comes out that can be built for a few hundred dollars and can power cars and homes… Who do you think will win?

      Every LENR/Blacklight Power/HHO tech we have seen could be reproduced with off the shelf parts in someones Garage if they knew the theory and technique.

      Nobody will wait on a 10 year waiting list for LENR and people will just do it themselves.

  • Paul

    No, wind turbine will continue to be approved if their price will be competive with LENR (remember that wind energy is free, or COP equal to infinite). History teaches us that new technologies are put on the market at lower prices but not enough lower to beat the alternatives and so often they result loosers. This has always been an error in a huge number of case, not least Solyndra technology. So, we will see if the new LENR pioneers will learn from the errors of the past inventors of new technologies or not.

  • dickyaesta

    Alien DNA Identified In Paracas Elongated Skulls
    http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com.es/2014/02/alien-dna-identified-in-paracas.html

    A final proof of existence of aliens seems to have been proven here!
    Can we now begin with the second stage?
    We are NOT alone! And adapt our religions accordingly, maybe we can now leave behind the narrow-mindedness
    of religion, science and general human interaction and begin to expand our knowledge without these clutches and become real world/universe citizens, surely LENR investigation will not be a problem then: It has already been
    proven and can now be expanded and financed properly not with only 11 million dollars, ah WOW, what an enormous amount 😉

  • dickyaesta

    Alien DNA Identified In Paracas Elongated Skulls
    http://globalwarming-arclein.blogspot.com.es/2014/02/alien-dna-identified-in-paracas.html

    A final proof of existence of aliens seems to have been proven here!
    Can we now begin with the second stage?
    We are NOT alone! And adapt our religions accordingly, maybe we can now leave behind the narrow-mindedness
    of religion, science and general human interaction and begin to expand our knowledge without these clutches and become real world/universe citizens, surely LENR investigation will not be a problem then: It has already been
    proven and can now be expanded and financed properly not with only 11 million dollars, ah WOW, what an enormous amount 😉

  • AstralProjectee

    One thing is for sure. it will be the biggest discovery, and lesson to be learned in the history of science thus far.

    • Warthog

      You haven’t studied deeply enough. It is known for the Pd/D2 system that the overall reaction (balanced) is 2D2–>1He4. This from direct analysis of both electrodes and off-gas. Sufficient experiments have been successfully done to show that the energy output “per formed nucleon” is a good match for the 24MEV that would result from the indicated reaction. At this time, there is not sufficient data available to say what is happening in the Ni/H2 systems.

      • Investor

        I believe that fusion can take place, especially in the lattice Pd/D2 system. To the extent that hydrinos are involved it will take place more often. MIT may very well be getting excess heat from fusion. They clearly have strong evidence of fusion taking place. Are there hydrinos in their system? We don’t know and we don’t know enough to see if there are the appropriate catalysts present. Mills is getting excess heat and there is no fusion going on. Could be entirely different systems the merger of which would be even better.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      I still think computers has to rate among or as the best discovery. They are why we are even close to Cold Fusion at present.

  • AstralProjectee

    One thing is for sure. it will be the biggest discovery, and lesson to be learned in the history of science thus far.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      I still think computers has to rate among or as the best discovery. They are why we are even close to Cold Fusion at present.

      • Roger Bird

        Unfortunately, computers do not provide an epistemological kick in the pants for the science establishment. If anything, computers have exacerbated the problem with all of that climate modeling garbage.

        • friendlyprogrammer

          Wow! I never thought I’d hear such a statement from anybody sane.

          20 years ago the main method of acquiring information was hoping a book had been published on it. Books were made of PAPER back then and often required a publisher who must feel there would be a market for that opinion. You would be hard pressed to find alternative theories.

          Stan Meyers, HHO, even LENR would be obscure with less than 1/1000 of the LENR crowd even knowing of such a thing.

          THANKS TO COMPUTERS/INTERNET we all have instant access to a myriad of alternative theories and legitimate science that we might not have known as much about.

          Garage Scientists like those posting HHO videos on youtube can demonstrate effects that even if you had read about 20 years ago you likely would not have taken as seriously.

          The internet is precisely why we are now leaping forward in science. A young girl learns about harmonics on the Internet and then comes up with an idea to detect buried mines by making them resonate with sound. This kind of genius is seen everywhere now in this information age.

          How many LENR/HHO videos do you think would exist without the Internet? Maybe one or two? How many do we have? Hundreds/Thousands.

          I recognize you from your frequent comments on the LENR threads, but if you seriously think computers and the Internet are holding science back I must revamp my entire opinion of you.

          Drink a coffee and rethink your position.

          • Roger Bird

            I am “misunderstoodprogrammer”; I was a computer programmer for 20 years. I am not criticizing computers. I know that the Internet has been amazing and will continue to be amazing. I am communicating with you via a computer and the Internet. I am saying that real world LENR burning someone’s finger is going to be the only way to kick the science establishment in the pants epistemologically speaking. You are not being “friendlyprogrammer”. You are being “defensiveprogrammer” and those two are not compatible. (:->)

          • friendlyprogrammer

            I think if you read the statement I was replying to you will see how I misconstrued your attitude as you were pretty harsh on computers. I also was surprised as your comments on LENR forums are usually noteworthy.

            I think we are witnessing a science trend that has never been noted before. Perhaps someone could do a Thesis on this.

            It is like there is a science overload with so much new science much of it is being ignored, especially anything once considered pathological science.

            I imagine LENR will go the way of the aircraft with science still denying its possibility in some sectors years after it has taken off and is running energy.

            We need media and shows like 60 minutes now as opposed to 2009, but what we really need is a LENR unit in Home Depot.

  • AstralProjectee

    One thing is for sure. it will be the biggest discovery, and lesson to be learned in the history of science thus far.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Your car will be big enough to hold a bathroom because lets face it, all the service stations have closed.

    With travel becoming so cheap it will become the experience instead of the mode to reach an experience.

    A look to the skies will see Helium/hot air blimps that are floating hotels with no explosion risks. The rich will dispose of their sailing yachts (hint sell your sailboat now), and the poor will convert them to new energy. Someone with a 35′ sailboat known for ease of operation will now be comfortable driving a 200′ ship with a garden and a pool..

    Cities will need to limit vehicle sizes or everyone and their dog will drive a motor home to work. Why not go big if fuel costs are nothing.

    LENR/HHO will be UBER cheap very quickly, because the processes involved are less complicated than a dollar store flashlight, and a million unemployed from the Solar and Wind Energy sector will start building cheap knock offs in their basement. There will be no way to stop the pirating of this technology because of its simplicity. The demand will obviously outweigh any production capacity. i.e. would you go on a 10 year waiting list or build one yourself?

    600 million less smog producing vehicles will mean fresh country air in the heart of major cities. Less health damage equals longer lives for all.

    It will take some time for car manufacturers to adapt. Small electric cars will be too small. Big gas cars wont run on electricity so the solution will be hydrogen conversions to gas vehicles (possibly a trailer unit). Some suggest Steam cars will come first, but any car manufactured today is a result of a decade of research (more) and steam prototypes will be years off.

    Nobody will shovel their driveways or roads. Cars will have heaters under them to melt snow and ice. You can move your car around your driveway or just install heaters in the asphalt. Roofs will melt the snow the same way.

    Every roof and road will be white. With all our extra energy capacity even the solar effects of black roof shingles will be too much, and we will be better off reflecting that heat back into space. Artificial cloud cover might be created for similar effects.

    Off grid living will become popular. Since everyone has a huge ship and motor home why live in a house. I’m sure there are reasons, but I’ll be in the South Pacific Catching fish, Breeding Chickens, Desalinating water, and making my own wine aboard The HMS Friendlyprogrammer. I will be surrounded by a million others doing the same thing.

    Everything, everything, everything, will become cheaper. A $500 television will be much cheaper to produce. Imagine,,,, Every manufacturer of every nut, bolt, wire, chip, will pay less for transport (supplies and delivery), less for electricity, less for A/C, less for heat and these cheaper bolts will pass on savings to the next manufacturer so that $500 television is now in an ecat (or other) heated store selling for $75.
    IMAGINE THE BUILDING BOOM. We will all have wall sized televisions for cheap.

    The Middle east will see a poverty strike them as their dependence on Oil Cash fails them. They will need to compete in a global market place and be forced to educate their women and adapt more responsible laws regarding religious tolerance. They will need to be liked for a change.

    Starvation will dissipate as cheap desalination provides clean water not only to people but can cheaply pump clean water into the soils of the earth. Cities in risk of collapsing into sinkholes (like Mexico City) can replenish their underwater reserves.

    A slow moving cruise ship will be replaced by hydrofoils or at least quadruple their speeds.

    I’d invest in electric motor companies. Magnet manufacturers. Boat builders. RV Builders, and avoid any energy investing. I would not invest in AR Rossi in case Blacklight wins. I would not invest in Brillouin in case Rossi wins. I would not invest in any of them until a winner is announced. Maybe its HHO.

    The days of burying a technology is over. Too many know about LENR/HHO/Blacklight Power (or whatever).. Internet has been a game changer in that regard. A mere 20 years ago we would be trying to find non existent library books about LENR as our only source of information.

    Bus shelters will be air conditioned and heated. Every park will have a play fountain.

    This is only a fraction of how I see the world in 10 years.

    • Christina

      Wow! Write a book like Mr. Rothwell did. At least, a short e-book to acquaint ‘everyman’ with this.

      • friendlyprogrammer

        Thanks for compliment. I have been published, but not on this topic.

    • NT

      “Your car will be big enough to hold a bathroom because lets face it, all the service stations have closed.”

      Had not thought of that, but you just described another possible niche business that will be necessary down the ‘road’ (pun intended)…

    • Omega Z

      People will still shovel snow. They just wont need salt to keep the Ice off the sidewalk.
      And who will worry about snow on roads. Computer controlled flying or hover craft wont be bother by snow/ice on the roads.
      🙂

      • friendlyprogrammer

        Why would a sane person shovel snow with electricity costs ridiculously cheap? If you want exercise go to a Gym. Iceland uses Geothermal Energy to keep some of their sidewalks and roads heated. Ask them if they would rather shovel.

        I have a foot of snow outside my house and just pulled my recycle container up and over a snowbank for morning pick up.

        We are talking about power so cheap some people may melt their lawns and garden year round.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        And indoor sports without heavy cost of heating or cooling!

        • friendlyprogrammer

          Yes. Nice addition. Maybe we can ski in summer like dubai.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        And indoor sports without heavy cost of heating or cooling!

    • HS61AF91

      Pretty uplifting, many thanks!

      • friendlyprogrammer

        Thanks. I think the future will look like this.

    • Donk970

      I really really want the 200 foot yacht with the garden and pool that never needs fuel.

      • 150 feet is adequate.

        • friendlyprogrammer

          @ Donk and 49’er..
          Yes. An extra 50 feet could be for livestock like chickens,,, Even a 50 foot sailboat these days is quite comfortable to sail the world. I’m thinking your own private self contained country, but this would be my dream. I will do it with sails if I need to, but I hope LENR boats come soon.

  • georgehants

    Wonderful page of comments, but only good scientists on page, where are our establishment hugging, Dogma worshipping scientists, are they getting so desperate that they have taken time off from censoring Wiki-rubbish and polluting Websites to consult their establishment high priests, on the seeming failure of their “opinion”experts, concerning Cold Fusion and a hundred other important scientific subjects.
    I am sure their priests are assuring them that their god will shortly send down bolts of lightning and plagues of nasty toads to punish all open-minded people and their normal belief in nothing beyond a steam engine can soon resume in all it’s glory.

    • Hope4dbest

      “…where are our establishment hugging, Dogma worshipping scientists,…”

      They have been censored in this Forum.

      • georgehants

        Hope4dbest, Ha, yes, must say though that I occasionally enjoy one of these wally’s turning up to laugh at their warped sense of reality.

        • Hope4dbest

          Censorship shows fear and fosters a herd mentality.

          • georgehants

            Hope4dbest, here is not censorship of the kind used by so called premier scientific journals etc. that remove anything not agreeing with the established religious Dogma and which has clearly led to the ” fear and fosters a herd mentality.” in scientists that you describe.
            Here anybody is free to put up fair comment undisturbed both pro and con, only clearly troublemaking irrational tripe is rightfully removed to allow people who are actually capable of thinking beyond debunking and blind denial to discuss in peace the TRUTH on all subjects.
            I am sure you will agree that is a very good policy that all science Websites should employ immediately.

          • Hope4dbest

            I disagree, George. “…clearly troublemaking irrational tripe…” is a matter of opinion. Profanity, vicious personal attacks or threats should lead to banning, independently of the poster’s position on the matter, but short of that, even the most rabid skeptic or the dumbest believer should be allowed to express their opinion.

          • ecatworld

            There are certain types of posts that I often delete here: Personal insults, profanity, spam, and pathoskeptical posts. I want E-Cat World to be a troll-free zone. I have to make a judgment call between honest skepticism, and trolling, and I may not always get that right, but I try to be fair.

          • Hope4dbest

            The question is, Admin, have you ever censored a pathobeliever post?

          • ecatworld

            Yes, I have.

  • georgehants

    Wonderful page of comments, but only good scientists on page, where are our establishment hugging, Dogma worshipping scientists, are they getting so desperate that they have taken time off from censoring Wiki-rubbish and polluting Websites to consult their establishment high priests, on the seeming failure of their “opinion”experts, concerning Cold Fusion and a hundred other important scientific subjects.
    I am sure their priests are assuring them that their god will shortly send down bolts of lightning and plagues of nasty toads to punish all open-minded people and their normal belief in nothing beyond a steam engine can soon resume in all it’s glory.

    • BuildItNow

      Perhaps they are turning their minds to mining the asteroid belt and then colonizing it. After all, who is going to own the asteroid belt. To do that, they better place shorts on the oil companies, etc. … fast. No time for these silly blog pages any more … Quick Quick Quick …

      • georgehants

        BuildItNow, yes while NASA wastes billions sending toy trucks to Mars etc. that can’t detect water, can’t detect life and who’s wheels are falling apart, just for publicity to raise the cash for the massive scientists welfare fund that they have put together, millions still die and suffer on this Earth from lack of food or clean water.
        Could something just be a little wrong.
        ——
        The Global Elite is Insane
        http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/06-02-2014/126767-global_elite-0/

        • Roger Bird

          Rudolf Steiner pointed out that human beings are thought, will, and feelings, which correspond to the Hindu thing of wisdom, power, and love or the Sat, Chit, and Ananda of God (although I am unsure if I have the Hindu thing in the right order). Modern people have the will part down good {hard case business people, soldiers, athletes, politicians, etc.} and the thought part good {academics, etc}, but our feeling part is relegated to stay-at-home moms watching soap operas in the early afternoon and the “boys don’t cry” mentality. Compassion is seen as weakness; and it doesn’t make much of a profit. “Serious” people think that sending toy trucks (I love that idea) to Mars is going to accomplish something of real value.

    • Roger Bird

      Dear George, don’t hold back. Tell us what you really think. (:->)

      Here’s the deal. I think that Columbus might be a most excellent example. The establishment believed that the world was 24,000 miles in circumference. Columbus believed that the world was 17,000 mile in circumference. The establishment felt that no one could sail west and not die or thirst and starvation long before they got to Japan. The establishment was CORRECT, in theory, just as the establishment is correct with regard to the Coulomb Barrier today. Columbus was WRONG. But who looks like the FOOL from the perspective of hindsight? Who is the goat and who is the hero?

      • georgehants

        Roger, Ha, I have no problem with people being wrong, just closed-minded fools that deny and debunk without ever looking at Evidence and theory and not demanding Research, instead of believing worthless “opinion”
        The fools that deny UFO’s and many other esoteric scientific subjects, not from the Evidence but simply because they have been led like sheep to that conclusion by corrupt and incompetent propaganda come to mind.

        • Roger Bird

          Denying and debunking without looking at the evidence can be very frustrating. But often times they (and sometimes we) do personal attacks; that is a whole lower level of evil. In many sites, even those devoted to LENR, I see these personal attacks so much that I simply don’t “go” there.

    • Hope4Dbest

      “…where are our establishment hugging, Dogma worshipping scientists,…”

      They have been censored in this Forum.

    • Hope4Dbest

      “…where are our establishment hugging, Dogma worshipping scientists,…”

      They have been censored in this Forum.

      • georgehants

        Hope4dbest, Ha, yes, must say though that I occasionally enjoy one of these wally’s turning up to laugh at their warped sense of reality.

        • Hope4Dbest

          Censorship shows fear and fosters a herd mentality.

          • georgehants

            Hope4dbest, here is not censorship of the kind used by so called premier scientific journals etc. that remove anything not agreeing with the established religious Dogma and which has clearly led to the ” fear and fosters a herd mentality.” in most scientists that you describe.
            Here anybody is free to put up fair comment undisturbed both pro and con, only clearly troublemaking irrational tripe is rightfully removed to allow people who are actually capable of thinking beyond debunking and blind denial to discuss in peace the TRUTH on all subjects.
            I am sure you will agree that is a very good policy that all science Websites should employ immediately.

          • Hope4Dbest

            I disagree, George. “…clearly troublemaking irrational tripe…” is a matter of opinion. Profanity, vicious personal attacks or threats should lead to banning, independently of the poster’s position on the matter, but short of that, even the most rabid skeptic or the dumbest believer should be allowed to express their opinion.

          • Frank Acland

            There are certain types of posts that I often delete here: Personal insults, profanity, spam, and pathoskeptical posts. I want E-Cat World to be a troll-free zone. I have to make a judgment call between honest skepticism, and trolling, and I may not always get that right, but I try to be fair.

          • Hope4Dbest

            The question is, Admin, have you ever censored a pathobeliever post?

          • Roger Bird

            Dear Hope, I have never seen a true believer here. I remained skeptical of Rossi for 19 months, until the May 2013 Levi, et. al. report. Partly I remained skeptical for so long because I listened to disbelievers and took note of their good points. This I believe is why I don’t just now accept Mills hook, line and sinker. As far as I can tell, everyone here is driven by the evidence, not wishful thinking, whether they are believers or disbelievers or somewhere in between.

            There are people here who talk way over my head with regard to nuclear physics. I am usually the smartest person in the room. NO ONE among my friends and family comes close to my intelligence. I am not bragging; it is simply a fact. [I am socially retarded; see, I am not bragging.] I am not used to being to the left of the peak of the normal curve when it comes to intelligence. But here I am one of the students, not one of the teachers, and I consider myself to be lucky to be wise enough and nimble enough to have discovered that LENR, LENR+, and the E-Cat are real.

          • Frank Acland

            Yes, I have.

      • Roger Bird

        Thank God for that. I wouldn’t be here if they weren’t. All I care about is clarity of thought and civility if not even camaraderie. People don’t have to agree with me.

  • Chris I

    Googling, blogging. These verbs of the English language were nonexistent 15 years ago and only little bird were ever tweeting. Email appeared in 1982. Now these things are on everybody’s lips and they have changed the world. 20 years ago a 2 kilobaud modem was getting to be next to useless but a DOS user who did only text might still have one; today even 100 kilobaud is pretty risible. Kings and popes would never be caught dead without a Facebook account and a Twitter hashtag; the same goes for today’s Ghandis and Ches..

    Counting from the day of Mary Yugo’s retirement, I think the pace will be much faster then that. Everybody and their great granny will be either scratching paper with pencils or tinkering and vying to be the coolest dude in town.

  • Chris, Italy

    Googling, blogging. These verbs of the English language were nonexistent 15 years ago and only little birdies were ever tweeting. Email appeared in 1982 but few folks heard about it much before the end of the millennium. Now these things are on everybody’s lips and they have changed the world. 20 years ago a 2 kilobaud modem was getting to be next to useless but a DOS user who did only text might still have one; today even 100 kilobaud is pretty risible. Kings and popes would never be caught dead without a Facebook account and a Twitter hashtag; the same goes for today’s Ghandis and Ches..

    Counting from the day of Mary Yugo’s retirement, I think the pace will be much faster than that. Everybody and their great granny will be either scratching paper with pencils or tinkering and vying to be the coolest dude in town.

  • Investor

    Greetings. I am the Blacklight Power investor who posted earlier. I was not so familiar with LENR technologies but I have gone through the processes and have come to some tentative conclusions. In every case I see that the processes are in fact misunderstood hydrino forming reactions previously demonstrated by Mills. This fact is hidden by the interpretation of the reactions as deriving from nuclear fusion. In all cases the supposed catalysts, secret sauces, pixie dust, or more plainly, electrolyte, is in fact a hydrino forming catalyst long ago identified in BLP papers. The key to hydrino creation is a resonant, non-radiative energy transfer from atomic hydrogen to a catalyst capable of accepting energy equal to an integer multiple of of the potential energy of atomic hydrogen which is 27.2 eV. Relevant Mills papers, available on the BLP website include the following:
    a. Commercializable Power Source Using Heterogeneous Hydrino Catalysts, b. Catalyst Induce Hydrino Transition (CIHT) Electrochemical Cell, c. Solid Fuels that Form HOH Catalyst.
    Going all the way back to Pons and Fleischmann it turns out the their electrolyte was Liithium dioxide. It was identified that Lithium deposits formed on both the cathode and anode. Mills identified Alkali Metal Hydrides such as LiH, NaH, and KH as key catalysts along with many others all having the appropriate energy multiple. Hydrinos are formed by the energy transfer from H to Li under appropriate conditions. Reports indicate that the Rossi and Defkalion processes use a potassium or potassium carbonate. Potassium carbonate was used as the electrolyte in Mills 1991 cell tested at Thermacore. Brillioun appears to be using a more advanced system but already identified by Mills in paper c. above.

    How do we know that fusion is not what is driving the measured energy gains? Because these experiments can be designed to yield excess energy with or without fusion products. In fact Mills has written that hydrinos, under the right conditions, have a statistically measurable probability of fusion due to the reduced electron orbit sphere. However the excess energy can be created without any fusion by-products proving that fusion is not the driving source of energy.
    Thus all the frustration in finding consistent fusion signatures and also the non optimized experiments that try to maximize fusion while ignoring the real source of the excess energy. Mills has long ago understood what is going on here, hence his continued insistence that this is not cold fusion. This was not due to any fear that he would be tarred with the cold fusion label but rather because he understood that the statistically small fusion signatures were irrelevant to the process. These other firms are really where Mills was years ago but still without any real understanding and hence flying blind so to speak. In the meantime Mills has been seeking to optimize a commercially viable system by finding ways to regenerate the catalysts. Thermal regeneration was thought to be the key but this has now been replaced with regeneration by rehydration – a significant breakthrough. That along with the ability to create a high velocity plasma which can efficiently be converted directly into electrical energy puts him way ahead.

    From a broad perspective I do not see this so much as a contest as a wonderful gift to the world. I am actually pleased to discover that these LENR experiments share quite a bit with earlier Blacklight Power experiments.
    Reading these pages I get a sense that commenters are picking favorites based upon the mistaken belief that one company will seek to control the energy marketplace. The ideal is that energy production will be liberated from the large corporations and given to the people. I believe that is actually Blacklight’s intention – to widely license and joint venture the technology at very reasonable cost and to encourage new applications and further technical innovation. That model would provide ample return to BLP investors while making energy as widely and cheaply available as possible. If control of, or God forbid, suppression of new energy technology is to come about, its source will not be from BLP or any of these other small firms, but rather governments and the existing powers that control them.

    • Warthog

      You haven’t studied deeply enough. It is known for the Pd/D2 system that the overall reaction (balanced) is 2D2–>1He4. This from direct analysis of both electrodes and off-gas. Sufficient experiments have been successfully done to show that the energy output “per formed nucleon” is a good match for the 24MEV that would result from the indicated reaction. At this time, there is not sufficient data available to say what is happening in the Ni/H2 systems.

      • AB

        There is also a substantial number of reports of tritium production in Pons & Fleischmann style “cold fusion”.

        Here is a list compiled by Ed Storms:

        1. Bertalot, L., et al. Analysis of tritium and heat excess
        in electrochemical cells with Pd cathodes. in Second Annual Conference
        on Cold Fusion, “The Science of Cold Fusion”. 1991. Como, Italy:
        Societa Italiana di Fisica, Bologna, Italy. p. 3.

        2. Chien, C.-C., et al., On an electrode producing massive
        quantities of tritium and helium. J. Electroanal. Chem., 1992. 338: p.
        189-212.

        3. Claytor, T.N., et al. Tritium and neutron measurements
        of a solid state cell. in NSF/EPRI Workshop on Anomalous Effects in
        Deuterated Materials. 1989. Washington, DC: LA-UR-89-39-46. p.

        4. Claytor, T.N., et al. Tritium production from palladium
        alloys. in The Seventh International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1998.
        Vancouver, Canada: ENECO, Inc., Salt Lake City, UT. p. 88-93.

        5. Fleischmann, M., S. Pons, and M. Hawkins,
        Electrochemically induced nuclear fusion of deuterium. J. Electroanal.
        Chem., 1989. 261: p. 301-308 and errata in Vol. 263, 187-188.

        6. Gozzi, D., et al. First results from a ten electrolytic
        cells experiment. in Anomalous Nuclear Effects in Deuterium/Solid
        Systems, “AIP Conference Proceedings 228”. 1990. Brigham Young Univ.,
        Provo, UT: American Institute of Physics, New York. p. 481.

        7. Gozzi, D., et al., Nuclear and thermal effects during
        electrolytic reduction of deuterium at palladium cathode. J. Fusion
        Energy, 1990. 9(3): p. 241.

        8. Guruswamy, S. and M.E. Wadsworth. Metallurgical Aspects
        in Cold Fusion Experiments. in The First Annual Conference on Cold
        Fusion. 1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah:
        National Cold Fusion Institute. p. 314.

        9. Itoh, T., et al. Observation of nuclear products under
        vacuum conditions from deuterated palladium with high loading ratio.
        in 5th International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1995. Monte-Carlo,
        Monaco: IMRA Europe, Sophia Antipolis Cedex, France. p. 189.

        10. Iyengar, P.K. Cold fusion results in BARC experiments.
        in Fifth International Conf. on Emerging Nucl. Energy Ststems. 1989.
        Karlsruhe, Germany. p.

        11. Iyengar, P.K. and M. Srinivasan, BARC studies in cold
        fusion. 1989, BARC, India: Bombay.

        12. Iyengar, P.K. and M. Srinivasan. Overview of BARC
        Studies in Cold Fusion. in The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion.
        1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah: National
        Cold Fusion Institute. p. 62.

        13. Iyengar, P.K., et al., Bhabha Atomic Research Centre
        studies on cold fusion. Fusion Technol., 1990. 18: p. 32.

        14. Matsumoto, O., et al. Detection of neutron and tritium
        during electrolysis of D2SO4-D2O solution. in Third International
        Conference on Cold Fusion, “Frontiers of Cold Fusion”. 1992. Nagoya
        Japan: Universal Academy Press, Inc., Tokyo, Japan. p. 495.

        15. Notoya, R. Alkali-hydrogen cold fusion accompanied by
        tritium production on nickel. in Fourth International Conference on
        Cold Fusion. 1993. Lahaina, Maui: Electric Power Research Institute
        3412 Hillview Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94304. p. 1.

        16. Notoya, R., Y. Noya, and T. Ohnishi, Tritium generation
        and large excess heat evolution by electrolysis in light and heavy
        water-potassium carbonate solutions with nickel electrodes. Fusion
        Technol., 1994. 26: p. 179.

        17. Notoya, R., Alkali-hydrogen cold fusion accompanied by
        tritium production on nickel. Trans. Fusion Technol., 1994. 26(#4T):
        p. 205-208.

        18. Packham, N.J.C., et al., Production of tritium from D2O
        electrolysis at a palladium cathode. J. Electroanal. Chem., 1989. 270:
        p. 451.

        19. Ramamurthy, H., et al. Further studies on excess heat
        generation in Ni-H2O electrolytic cells. in Fourth International
        Conference on Cold Fusion. 1993. Lahaina, Maui: Electric Power
        Research Institute 3412 Hillview Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94304. p. 15.

        20. Ray, M.K.S., et al., The Fleischmann-Pons phenomenon – a
        different perspective. Fusion Technol., 1992. 22: p. 395.

        21. Sankaranarayanan, M., et al. Investigation of low level
        tritium generation in Ni-H2O electrolytic cells. in Fourth
        International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1993. Lahaina, Maui: Electric
        Power Research Institute 3412 Hillview Ave., Palo Alto, CA 94304. p. 3.

        22. Sankaranarayanan, T.K., et al., Investigation of low-
        level tritium generation in Ni-H2O electrolytic cells. Fusion
        Technol., 1996. 30: p. 349.

        23. Sánchez, C., et al., Nuclear products detection during
        electrolysis of heavy water with titanium and platinum electrodes.
        Solid State Commun., 1989. 71: p. 1039.

        24. Sánchez, C., et al. Cold fusion during electrolysis of
        heavy water with Ti and Pt electrodes. in Understanding Cold Fusion
        Phenomena. 1989. Varenna. p.

        25. Scott, C.D., et al., A preliminary investigation of cold
        fusion by electrolysis of heavy water. 1989, Oak Ridge National
        Laboratory: Oak Ridge.

        26. Srinivasan, M., et al. Tritium and excess heat
        generation during electrolysis of aqueous solutions of alkali salts
        with nickel cathode. in Third International Conference on Cold Fusion,
        “Frontiers of Cold Fusion”. 1992. Nagoya Japan: Universal Academy
        Press, Inc., Tokyo, Japan. p. 123.

        27. Srinivasan, M., et al., Excess heat and tritium
        measurements in Ni-H2O electrolytic cells, in preprint. 1994.

        28. Storms, E.K. and C.L. Talcott. A study of electrolytic
        tritium production. in The First Annual Conference on Cold Fusion.
        1990. University of Utah Research Park, Salt Lake City, Utah: National
        Cold Fusion Institute. p. 149.

        29. Storms, E. and C.L. Talcott, Electrolytic tritium
        production. Fusion Technol., 1990. 17: p. 680.

        30. Storms, E., My life with cold fusion as a reluctant
        mistress. Infinite Energy, 1999. 4(24): p. 42.

        31. Szpak, S., P.A. Mosier-Boss, and J.J. Smith. Reliable
        procedure for the initiation of the Fleischmann-Pons effect. in Second
        Annual Conference on Cold Fusion, “The Science of Cold Fusion”. 1991.
        Como, Italy: Societa Italiana di Fisica, Bologna, Italy. p. 87.

        32. Szpak, S., P.A. Mosier-Boss, and J.J. Smith, On the behavior
        of Pd deposited in the presence of evolving deuterium. J. Electroanal.
        Chem., 1991. 302: p. 255.

        33. Szpak, S., P.A. Mosier-Boss, and J.J. Smith. Comments on
        methodology of excess tritium determination. in Third International
        Conference on Cold Fusion, “Frontiers of Cold Fusion”. 1992. Nagoya
        Japan: Universal Academy Press, Inc., Tokyo, Japan. p. 515.

        34. Szpak, S., P.A. Mosier-Boss, and R.D. Boss, Comments on the
        analysis of tritium content in electrochemical cells. J. Electroanal.
        Chem., 1994. 373: p. 1.

        35. Szpak, S. and P.A. Mosier-Boss, Nuclear and thermal events
        associated with Pd + D co-deposition. J. New Energy, 1996. 1(3): p. 54.

        36. Szpak, S., et al., On the behavior of the Pd/D system:
        evidence for tritium production. Fusion Technol., 1998. 33: p. 38.

        37. Szpak, S. and P.A. Mosier-Boss, On the release of n/1H from
        cathodically polarized palladium electrodes. Fusion Technol., 1998.
        34: p. 273.

        38. Talcott, C.L., et al. Tritium measurements: Methods,
        pitfalls, and result. in EPRI/NSF Planning Workshop. 1989. Washington,
        DC. p.

        39. Violante, V., et al. X-ray emission during electrolysis
        of light water on palladium and nickel thin films. in The 9th
        International Conference on Cold Fusion, Condensed Matter Nuclear
        Science. 2002. Tsinghua Univ., Beijing, China: Tsinghua Univ. Press.
        p. 376.

        40. Will, F.G., et al. Studies of electrolytic and gas phase
        loading of palladium with deuterium. in Second Annual Conference on
        Cold Fusion, “The Science of Cold Fusion”. 1991. Como, Italy: Societa
        Italiana di Fisica, Bologna, Italy. p. 373.

        41. Will, F.G., K. Cedzynska, and D.C. Linton. Tritium
        generation in palladium cathodes with high deuterium loading. in
        Fourth International Conference on Cold Fusion. 1993. Lahaina, Maui:
        Electric Power Research Institute 3412 Hillview Ave., Palo Alto, CA
        94304. p. 8.

        42. Will, F.G., K. Cedzynska, and D.C. Linton, Reproducible
        tritium generation in electrochemical cells employing palladium
        cathodes with high deuterium loading. J. Electroanal. Chem., 1993.
        360: p. 161.

        43. Wolf, K.L., et al. A Search for neutrons and gamma rays
        associated with tritium production in deuterated metals. in NSF/EPRI
        Workshop on Anomalous Effects in Deuterated Metals. 1989. Washington,
        DC. p.

      • Investor

        I believe that fusion can take place, especially in the lattice Pd/D2 system. To the extent that hydrinos are involved it will take place more often. MIT may very well be getting excess heat from fusion. They clearly have strong evidence of fusion taking place. Are there hydrinos in their system? We don’t know and we don’t know enough to see if there are the appropriate catalysts present. Mills is getting excess heat and there is no fusion going on. Could be entirely different systems the merger of which would be even better.

    • Stephen Savage

      Investor brings up many great points, and I have to say I am mostly in agreement. I do think Mills theory will prove the winner, based upon my amateur reading of the science.

      I would love to see another thread started to discuss the evidence pro/con on whether we have discovered (simultaneously … over the past 20+ years) two/many separate phenomena yielding significant excess energy, or if the underlying theory will turn out to be the same.

      Does it not seem unlikely that there would more than 1 major discovery… ???

  • clovis ray

    hi , guys,”boy’ what good comments today, you’all have just about said it , but i will say i think lenr will be as great a discovery, as fire itself, i love the name for it, the new fire, so just get your popcorn and your big easy chair, and enjoy the coming year, it should be exciting, it’s like an old rumbling steam engine gradually gaining speed, when you hear the whistle blowing , it will time to ride the lenr train, lol.

    • Omega Z

      Cancer may decline but,
      If one lives long enough, they will develop cancer.
      It can be triggered by the Oxygen we need to live in the 1st place.
      It’s inevitable. Not If. Just When…

  • clovis ray

    hi , guys,”boy’ what good comments today, you’all have just about said it , but i will say i think lenr will be as great a discovery, as fire itself, i love the name for it, the new fire, so just get your popcorn and your big easy chair, and enjoy the coming year, it should be exciting, it’s like an old rumbling steam engine gradually gaining speed, when you hear the whistle blowing , it will time to ride the lenr train, lol.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    13) EASY, just pay off debt with funny-money.

    • US_Citizen71

      The US could just print the money, but the resulting tsunami through the world financial markets wouldn’t be pretty.

      • Omega Z

        Citizen71

        Between Debt increase & QE, the U.S. has pumped about $15 Trillion plus into the Economy in the last 5 years.

        How do you not have a Robust U.S. Economy with that kind of money. When it is being distributed around the World. Note articles in the Financials have been published that should the U.S. Stop the QE right now all at once, Asian Housing markets would collapse & lose 50% or more value almost Immediately.

        So much going on & so few see it. The U.S., & Entities in the EU, Germany, France, UK, & a few others are propping up the World Economy.

        When the World Economy crashed, Well over $30 trillion dollars worth of assets Vaporized over night. Poof. (Asset Values are subjective more then real) Everything has been geared to re-inflate those assets. Because much debt is backed by those assets & should they disappear, technically all debts backed by them are in default.

        While Publicly everyone has been focused on spots like Greece Etc, the real Crisis has been much bigger & going on Quietly behind closed doors. Lest the World go into major panic & Collapse… Example-They’ve even allowed (6/1) up to $6 in debt to be temporarily covered by $1 in assets.

  • MasterBlaster7

    “Probably the government will tax LENR in a desperate effort to stay alive”

    Exactly, and not a potentially bad thing. The US spends like 1/2 a trillion on non-mobile energy a year and another 1/2 trillion on automotive energy. I bet that the US government will tax this energy, so that you are paying about the same amount in utilities and at the pump. I think the US will use those taxes….say somewhere around a trillion a year….to pay off the national debt. So, 20 or so years later….we can talk about, truly, free energy after the national debt has been paid off.

    • Omega Z

      “Probably the government will tax LENR in a desperate effort to stay alive”

      They may Try, But in reality, they shouldn’t have to. With Economic growth due to cheap energy, Demand for Welfare Etc, should decline as they should be working for a living & Paying Income taxes rather then collecting them.

      We’ll see when the time comes.

      • Fortyniner

        Governments tend to want our money right now rather than in a few years time.

  • hempenearth

    Excess helium will make everyone talk funny

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Some have started practising

  • hempenearth

    Excess helium will make everyone talk funny

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Some have started practising

  • BroKeeper

    In the beginning I’m envisioning a place for each of these unique LENR devices filling society’s specific needs. E-Cat providing massive heat/power capabilities to drive large utility electrical turbines, sterling generated power for local mini grids and powering Cyclone engines for vehicles; the BLP’s SF-CIHT Cell for unlimited fed H2O fuel and replenished catalyst for home/business electrical needs; a Nanor/Eneco thermo-electric chip hybrid to surpass 1.5-9v battery’s longevity by magnitudes for small and mobile applications; Brillioun and DGT filling the gaps; but all eventually in the game for the whole spectrum of uses.

  • Brokeeper

    In the beginning I’m envisioning a place for each of these unique LENR devices filling society’s specific needs. E-Cat providing massive heat/power capabilities to drive large utility electrical turbines, sterling generated power for local mini grids and powering Cyclone engines for vehicles; the BLP’s SF-CIHT Cell for unlimited fed H2O fuel and replenished catalyst for home/business electrical needs; a Nanor/Eneco thermo-electric chip hybrid to surpass 1.5-9v battery’s longevity by magnitudes for small and mobile applications; Brillioun, DGT and the rest filling the gaps; but all eventually in the game for the whole spectrum of uses – my favorite to provide clean water, heat and electricity to remote impoverished areas.

  • Chris Marshalk

    When you have articles like this one, it makes you wondering if it’s all a big waste of money. It also makes me wonder when or if LENR will come to market. http://cleantechnica.com/2014/02/10/saudi-government-sunedison-undertaking-feasibility-study-6-4-billion-dollar-pv-manufacturing-complex/

  • Roger Bird

    IMHO, LENR will be the biggest deal in technological history, next to fire, the steam engine, etc.

    • Donk970

      I think that LENR will occupy the same place in history as fire. Nothing else compares.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Thanks for compliment. I have been published, but not on this topic.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Just a bit pessimistic. I think it will create a boom unlike any in history. Everything will be made cheaper. Cheaper Supply, Cheaper delivery, Cheaper heating, cheaper A/C will apply to every nut and bolt in every widget. People will have more of the money siphoned off to the middle east to shop at home and hire local.

  • Omega Z

    How significant on a grand scale.

    Fossil fuels are limited. They “WILL” become economically exhausted.
    Wind, Solar & Even wave action all have their dark sides which aren’t yet evident to the masses. The Economic & Environmental costs are far beyond what is told should they become the primary source of Energy. Yes, You are being passively lied to by default of them not disclosing information.

    According to NASA studies, If the U.S. used every last blade of grass for bio-fuels, It would never exceed 25/30% of current energy use & we will ignore the facts of starvation.

    Fukushima’s are forever forbidden zones. How many of those can we deal with. According to Physicist, Dr. Michio Kaku, The Nuclear hazard there has a 700 Million year half life. The Earth will be enveloped/En-wrapped by our dying Sun long before it’s safe to re-inhabit.

    None of the Above can sustain a population of 8/9 Billion in the long term even in a patch work system. And many of us are aware of those few who subscribe to eliminating all but a few million people. What is it, Agenda 21 or whatever.

    So yes, This is Huge. And if these reactions are sustainable in Space, It would be the single greatest development in our History.

    • GreenWin

      The massive BLP patent application includes sections on using CIHT energy for a variety of propulsion systems including mag confined ion thrust, directed plasma thrust, and some form of MHD thrust. This energy density would also enable a MHD wavecrest propulsion system, potentially for submersible vessels.

      • Omega Z

        I believe these LENR devices will work in space or ultimately can be designed to, But until they take 1 up to the space station & test it we can’t be certain.

        I allow that Zero gravity could be a problem.
        But no reason they couldn’t build a centrifuge platform to compensate.

      • Obvious

        People generally fail to be Darwinized by their stupidity or bad choices, since they most often breed before their bad habits and choices can catch up with them. Only in the most harsh environments do humans have a chance at physically evolving.

        • Roger Bird

          But it is beneficial to the “clan” to have old people around, to help raise children and pass on the wisdom. This is where cultural selection of the optimal diet comes into play with traditional diets.

    • BroKeeper

      Perhaps LENR rockets could propel those nuclear hazards to the sun.

  • Omega Z

    How significant on a grand scale.

    Fossil fuels are limited. They “WILL” become economically exhausted.
    Wind, Solar & Even wave action all have their dark sides which aren’t yet evident to the masses. The Economic & Environmental costs are far beyond what is told should they become the primary source of Energy. Yes, You are being passively lied to by default of them not disclosing information.

    According to NASA studies, If the U.S. used every last blade of grass for bio-fuels, It would never exceed 25/30% of current energy use & we will ignore the facts of starvation.

    Fukushima’s are forever forbidden zones. How many of those can we deal with. According to Physicist, Dr. Michio Kaku, The Nuclear hazard there has a 700 Million year half life. The Earth will be enveloped/En-wrapped by our dying Sun long before it’s safe to re-inhabit.

    None of the Above can sustain a population of 8/9 Billion in the long term even in a patch work system. And many of us are aware of those few who subscribe to eliminating all but a few million people. What is it, Agenda 21 or whatever.

    So yes, This is Huge. And if these reactions are sustainable in Space, It would be the single greatest development in our History.

    • GreenWin

      The massive BLP patent application includes sections on using CIHT energy for a variety of propulsion systems including mag confined ion thrust, directed plasma thrust, and some form of MHD thrust. This energy density would also enable a MHD wavecrest propulsion system, potentially for submersible vessels.

      • Omega Z

        I believe these LENR devices will work in space or ultimately can be designed to, But until they take 1 up to the space station & test it we can’t be certain.

        I allow that Zero gravity could be a problem.
        But no reason they couldn’t build a centrifuge platform to compensate.

        • Roger Bird

          I said it before: I think that zero gravity would intensify the reaction to any LENR based upon a metallic dust since the dust would be revealing more surface to the hydrogen since it would be suspended, floating. But like you said, we can’t be sure until we try it.

    • Brokeeper

      Perhaps LENR rockets could propel those nuclear hazards to the sun.

  • Job001

    The way to handle unemployment is by making people owners of automation that takes care of them. Two hundred years ago it was “160 acres and a herd of cows”, then it became “40 acres and a mule”, now it is “640 acres+ and automated farming”, soon it can be “1/2 acre of aquaponics and a robot”. In other words, local automation is evolving.
    First, large scale automation evolved. Next, small scale automation is evolving to meet expensive needs like elder care, child care, and family needs.
    It is difficult to imagine smart ideas before they are invented so, the future falsely seems less certainty than the past, a mistake of Malthusians(who ignore productivity gains and proven human adaptability).

  • georgehants

    BuildItNow, yes while NASA wastes billions sending toy trucks to Mars etc. that can’t detect water, can’t detect life and who’s wheels are falling apart, just for publicity to raise the cash for the massive scientists welfare fund that they have put together, million still die and suffer on this Earth.
    Could something just be a little wrong.
    ——
    The Global Elite is Insane
    http://english.pravda.ru/opinion/columnists/06-02-2014/126767-global_elite-0/

  • georgehants

    Roger, Ha, I have no problem with people being wrong, just closed-minded fools that deny and debunk without ever looking at Evidence and theory and demanding Research, not “opinion”
    The fools that deny UFO’s and many other esoteric scientific subjects, simply because they have been led like sheep to that conclusion by corrupt and incompetent propaganda come to mind.

  • Omega Z

    It will be gradual & the Economic system will slowly adapt.
    Minimum wage is somewhat akin to a minimum living & will also be adjusted with automation. However that’s farther down the road as with the aging population, a shortage of workers will likely be experienced 1st. Automation will likely have to catch up/offset the shortage 1st.

    • Omega Z

      Note: When you purchase a product that latter is disposed of, You then pay for disposal service.
      So Yes, you will pay for the dismantling of the old. Either thru the New system(Surcharge) or higher taxes. In the U.S., there is a decommission fee built into the Energy costs of Nuclear Plants, But many of them are short of what will actually be needed so you’ll pay that also.

  • Omega Z

    You Know that scientists & economists advise the politicians now, Right??? 🙂

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Yes. Nice addition. Maybe we can ski in summer like dubai.

  • Gordon Docherty

    Looking at Hydrinos and LENR, it may well not be a question of which is the more fundamental effect, but rather, whether there is a more fundamental effect still – a source or Quelle theory (Quelle is German for source) of which LENR and Hydrinos are but manifestations.

    Anyone following the Hydrino and LENR developments for long enough have probably also come across work in the Zero Point field and the interesting effects surrounding “Casimir cavities” – so named after the Dutch physicist Hendrik Casimir. Now, the Casimir force is something that even Wikipedia admits to as being real!

    Now, although a few years old, the blog of one “Francis Froarty” (exact identity unknown):

    http://froarty.scienceblog.com/

    and articles reached from that blog:

    http://froarty.scienceblog.com/32155/relativistic-interpertation-of-casimir-effect-expanded/
    http://froarty.scienceblog.com/29738/hydrino-patent-based-on-catalyst-denied-while-later-patent-for-relativistic-hydrogen-based-on-casimir-cavity-granted/
    http://froarty.scienceblog.com/tag/jan-naudts/
    http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0507193v2
    http://www.byzipp.com/animaTime.htm

    see Hydrinos, LENR reactions and ZPEnergy capture (as per Haisch and Moddel’s patent) as a relativistic effect, after work done by Jan Naudts (who “squares” (sorry for the pun) the contradition inherent between the Klein-Gordon equation of the hydrogen atom, which allows for a low-lying eigenstate, called the hydrino state, with square integrable wavefunction and the corresponding spinor solution of Dirac’s equation, which is not square integrable – this was mentioned elsewhere on this site as a reason why Hydrinos “can’t” exist even though experimental evidence says otherwise,), another name that may be familiar to those who have been following these developments with interest.

    So, the real Quelle effect may well be down to the relativistic effects resulting from the constricted space geometry of Casimir cavities causing changes in the “time” dimension, which appear to us from the outside as if many reactions have occurred near simultaneously, while from the inside they appear to be happening at their usual much slower rate… this would also finally explain the mystery of why (and how) catalysts actually work, that is, why a chemical reaction in the presence of a catalyst suddenly “speeds up”, something that has been, until now still ultimately a mysterious process…

    So, I have a strong suspicion we are entering a new era of exploration – exploiting space-time in new ways. As the referenced articles point out, if a time piece approaches a super-massive object (such as a huge star or black hole), to the outside observer the time piece appears to slow down: in a Casimir cavity, the reverse is held to be true – to the outside observer time appears to speed up, with time getting ever faster as the cavity narrows. To an observer within the cavity, however, if such were possible, time would appear to remain the same and the cavity would appear to stay the same size.

    So, just as a man approaching a black hole is held not see his time getting any slower, so the man in the cavity is held not notice his time getting any faster. Outside of the cavity, the clock being held by the man approaching the black hole appears to slow down, while the clock being held by the man in cavity appears to speed up.

    This has implications not just for energy generation, of course, but also for chemical reactions – oh, wait, we already use that effect: it is known as the catalytic effect – and space warping – inside the warp cavity, time ticks along as normal, whereas outside, the craft in the warp appears to be moving faster than light: go fast enough and keep opening up the cavity before you and this could be the basis of a warp drive. Now, how you engineer a Casimir cavity big enough, well that’s a whole ball game in itself, and may not even be possible, but it is certainly possible for streaming atoms through pockets (provided they are monatomic, a precondition of both Hydrinos and LENR)

    This also means that the theoretical limit for energy production for
    LENR or Hydrinos would be similar, meaning Randy Mills’ claims of 10
    billion watts per second per liter are far from outrageous, but may
    actually just be the starting point. Wow.

    So, is LENR consistent with what has been observed in other ways? Yep. Is LENR a big deal? YOU BET!!!

  • Gordon Docherty

    Looking at Hydrinos and LENR, it may well not be a question of which is the more fundamental effect, but rather, whether there is a more fundamental effect still – a source or Quelle theory (Quelle is German for source) of which LENR and Hydrinos are but manifestations.

    Anyone following the Hydrino and LENR developments for long enough have probably also come across work in the Zero Point field and the interesting effects surrounding “Casimir cavities” – so named after the Dutch physicist Hendrik Casimir. Now, the Casimir force is something that even Wikipedia admits to as being real!

    Now, although a few years old, the blog of one “Francis Froarty” (exact identity unknown):

    http://froarty.scienceblog.com/

    and articles reached from that blog:

    http://froarty.scienceblog.com/32155/relativistic-interpertation-of-casimir-effect-expanded/
    http://froarty.scienceblog.com/29738/hydrino-patent-based-on-catalyst-denied-while-later-patent-for-relativistic-hydrogen-based-on-casimir-cavity-granted/
    http://froarty.scienceblog.com/tag/jan-naudts/
    http://arxiv.org/abs/physics/0507193v2
    http://www.byzipp.com/animaTime.htm

    see Hydrinos, LENR reactions and ZPEnergy capture (as per Haisch and Moddel’s patent) as a relativistic effect, after work done by Jan Naudts (who “squares” (sorry for the pun) the contradition inherent between the Klein-Gordon equation of the hydrogen atom, which allows for a low-lying eigenstate, called the hydrino state, with square integrable wavefunction and the corresponding spinor solution of Dirac’s equation, which is not square integrable – this was mentioned elsewhere on this site as a reason why Hydrinos “can’t” exist even though experimental evidence says otherwise,), another name that may be familiar to those who have been following these developments with interest.

    So, the real Quelle effect may well be down to the relativistic effects resulting from the constricted space geometry of Casimir cavities causing changes in the “time” dimension, which appear to us from the outside as if many reactions have occurred near simultaneously, while from the inside they appear to be happening at their usual much slower rate… this would also finally explain the mystery of why (and how) catalysts actually work, that is, why a chemical reaction in the presence of a catalyst suddenly “speeds up”, something that has been, until now still ultimately a mysterious process…

    So, I have a strong suspicion we are entering a new era of exploration – exploiting space-time in new ways. As the referenced articles point out, if a time piece approaches a super-massive object (such as a huge star or black hole), to the outside observer the time piece appears to slow down: in a Casimir cavity, the reverse is held to be true – to the outside observer time appears to speed up, with time getting ever faster as the cavity narrows. To an observer within the cavity, however, if such were possible, time would appear to remain the same and the cavity would appear to stay the same size.

    So, just as a man approaching a black hole is held not see his time getting any slower, so the man in the cavity is held not notice his time getting any faster. Outside of the cavity, the clock being held by the man approaching the black hole appears to slow down, while the clock being held by the man in cavity appears to speed up.

    This has implications not just for energy generation, of course, but also for chemical reactions – oh, wait, we already use that effect: it is known as the catalytic effect – and space warping – inside the warp cavity, time ticks along as normal, whereas outside, the craft in the warp appears to be moving faster than light: go fast enough and keep opening up the cavity before you and this could be the basis of a warp drive. Now, how you engineer a Casimir cavity big enough, well that’s a whole ball game in itself, and may not even be possible, but it is certainly possible for streaming atoms through pockets (provided they are monatomic, a precondition of both Hydrinos and LENR)

    This also means that the theoretical limit for energy production for
    LENR or Hydrinos would be similar, meaning Randy Mills’ claims of 10
    billion watts per second per liter are far from outrageous, but may
    actually just be the starting point. Wow.

    So, is LENR consistent with what has been observed in other ways? Yep. Is LENR a big deal? YOU BET!!!

  • Quiet Wine Guy

    +1

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Wow! I never thought I’d hear such a statement from anybody sane.

    20 years ago the main method of acquiring information was hoping a book had been published on it. Books were made of PAPER back then and often required a publisher who must feel there would be a market for that opinion. You would be hard pressed to find alternative theories.

    Stan Meyers, HHO, even LENR would be obscure with less than 1/1000 of the LENR crowd even knowing of such a thing.

    THANKS TO COMPUTERS/INTERNET we all have instant access to a myriad of alternative theories and legitimate science that we might not have known as much about.

    Garage Scientists like those posting HHO videos on youtube can demonstrate effects that even if you had read about 20 years ago you likely would not have taken as seriously.

    The internet is precisely why we are now leaping forward in science. A young girl learns about harmonics on the Internet and then comes up with an idea to detect buried mines by making them resonate with sound. This kind of genius is seen everywhere now in this information age.

    How many LENR/HHO videos do you think would exist without the Internet? Maybe one or two? How many do we have? Hundreds/Thousands.

    I recognize you from your frequent comments on the LENR threads, but if you seriously think computers and the Internet are holding science back I must revamp my entire opinion of you.

    Drink a coffee and rethink your position.

    • Roger Bird

      I am “misunderstoodprogrammer”; I was a computer programmer for 20 years. I am not criticizing computers. I know that the Internet has been amazing and will continue to be amazing. I am communicating with you via a computer and the Internet. I am saying that real world LENR burning someone’s finger is going to be the only way to kick the science establishment in the pants epistemologically speaking. You are not being “friendlyprogrammer”. You are being “defensiveprogrammer” and those two are not compatible. (:->)

      • friendlyprogrammer

        I think if you read the statement I was replying to you will see how I misconstrued your attitude as you were pretty harsh on computers. I also was surprised as your comments on LENR forums are usually noteworthy.

        I think we are witnessing a science trend that has never been noted before. Perhaps someone could do a Thesis on this.

        It is like there is a science overload with so much new science much of it is being ignored, especially anything once considered pathological science.

        I imagine LENR will go the way of the aircraft with science still denying its possibility in some sectors years after it has taken off and is running energy.

        We need media and shows like 60 minutes now as opposed to 2009, but what we really need is a LENR unit in Home Depot.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    “Former Duke Energy CEO Jim Rogers predicts that nearly every single power plant operating today — aside from some hydro and perhaps a few nuclear plants — will be replaced by the middle of the century. He called it a “blank sheet of paper” that opens up the possibility of a major transformation for utilities.” http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/former-duke-ceo-jim-rogers-the-u.s.-grid-will-be-a-blank-sheet-of-paper?utm_source=Daily&utm_medium=Headline&utm_campaign=GTMDaily

    • GreenWin

      Iggy, it is these guys — utility CEO’s that are a far better metric for the energy renaissance than stodgy old physicists. While physicists fret over the loss of the Coulomb barrier, leaders like David Crane are predicting the end of the utility industry as we know it.

      “Crane ultimately believes many utilities will resist the energy transition and new players will take their place. Technology titans such as Google and Apple, as well as home
      technology service companies like Comcast, Crane says, could capitalize
      on the opportunity.

      Google has “shown the most interest” thus far, Crane notes, but
      “Apple has a history of showing no interest in an area and suddenly
      dominating it.”

      http://www.utilitydive.com/news/nrg-ceo-thinks-google-can-replace-utilities/190135/

      • Owen Geiger

        It’s very easy for me to believe that Apple and other huge corporations have secret LENR projects in the works. They have plenty of money so why not investigate the effect?

        • GreenWin

          A reasoned observation Owen. That is usually how companies stay ahead of competitors. To that end, check my recent comment “Google Enters Home Energy Management” in the Always Open Thread. This $3.2B acquisition of “Energy Appliance” maker Nest Labs is a strong indication that distributed energy is replacing centralized power and grid. Google and Apple ARE in the game.

          http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/10/always-open-e-cat-world-thread/

        • Donk970

          I’m not sure about these days but in the past Apple ran many skunk works projects for years that absolutely nobody knew anything about. For example, it was a complete shock when Apple announced that they would start shipping computers that used Intel processors. They had obviously been working on it for years but nobody knew about it. I fully expect that there are at least a couple companies like Apple or Google that have had skunk works projects in LENR going for years. Imagine the benefit to Apple if they could announce that the new iPhone never needed recharging. Same with Google.

        • I don’t know any interest by apple& other IT innovators.
          There are already some discrete public information about others Fortune 500 non-IT innovators.
          And not everything done is public in life.

          • Owen Geiger

            “Not everything done is public.” Right. That’s the key point. Surely these big corporations have read the research papers by Toyota, etc.They’re hugely successful because they’re on the cutting edge and plan to keep it that way (stay on top).

    • psi2u2

      Very interesting and telling quotation, Iggy!

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    “Former Duke Energy CEO Jim Rogers predicts that nearly every single power plant operating today — aside from some hydro and perhaps a few nuclear plants — will be replaced by the middle of the century. He called it a “blank sheet of paper” that opens up the possibility of a major transformation for utilities.” http://www.greentechmedia.com/articles/read/former-duke-ceo-jim-rogers-the-u.s.-grid-will-be-a-blank-sheet-of-paper?utm_source=Daily&utm_medium=Headline&utm_campaign=GTMDaily

    • GreenWin

      Iggy, it is these guys — utility CEO’s that are a far better metric for the energy renaissance than stodgy old physicists. While physicists fret over the loss of the Coulomb barrier, leaders like David Crane are predicting the end of the utility industry as we know it.

      “Crane ultimately believes many utilities will resist the energy transition and new players will take their place. Technology titans such as Google and Apple, as well as home
      technology service companies like Comcast, Crane says, could capitalize
      on the opportunity.

      Google has “shown the most interest” thus far, Crane notes, but
      “Apple has a history of showing no interest in an area and suddenly
      dominating it.”

      http://www.utilitydive.com/news/nrg-ceo-thinks-google-can-replace-utilities/190135/

      • Owen Geiger

        It’s very easy for me to believe that Apple and other huge corporations have secret LENR projects in the works. They have plenty of money so why not investigate the effect?

        • Roger Bird

          (1) They have never heard of it. (2) They don’t believe it. (3) They don’t want to look foolish. There are three good reasons why they are not investigating it, yet. (:->) They will; I guarantee it.

          It is nice to have a certainty in life. Short of nuclear war or an asteroid slamming into the Earth, LENR is going to happen.

        • GreenWin

          A reasoned observation Owen. That is usually how companies stay ahead of competitors. To that end, check my recent comment “Google Enters Home Energy Management” in the Always Open Thread. This $3.2B acquisition of “Energy Appliance” maker Nest Labs is a strong indication that distributed energy is replacing centralized power and grid. Google and Apple ARE in the game.

          http://www.e-catworld.com/2013/10/always-open-e-cat-world-thread/

        • Donk970

          I’m not sure about these days but in the past Apple ran many skunk works projects for years that absolutely nobody knew anything about. For example, it was a complete shock when Apple announced that they would start shipping computers that used Intel processors. They had obviously been working on it for years but nobody knew about it. I fully expect that there are at least a couple companies like Apple or Google that have had skunk works projects in LENR going for years. Imagine the benefit to Apple if they could announce that the new iPhone never needed recharging. Same with Google.

        • I don’t know any interest by apple& other IT innovators.
          There are already some discrete public information about others Fortune 500 non-IT innovators.
          And not everything done is public in life.

          • Owen Geiger

            “Not everything done is public.” Right. That’s the key point. Surely these big corporations have read the research papers by Toyota, etc.They’re hugely successful because they’re on the cutting edge and plan to keep it that way (stay on top).

    • psi2u2

      Very interesting and telling quotation, Iggy!

  • Omega Z

    The Petrodollar is important for the U.S., but as a tool to transfer wealth to other countries.
    Look to where the most of Oil comes from in General, These countries have little else to generate a healthy economy. The intent is to provide Capital to these countries to build their economies.

    There is a method to TPTB Madness. to bring these countries to parity with the developed World. Raise the Standard of living in the middle east & alleviate the suffering makes it really hard for fanatic groups to recruit members. Not Impossible. Just very hard.

  • Da Phys

    Interesting discussions here. Yesterday I read again the articles published by Fleischmann&Pons in the 1980/1990’s and I had a mixed feeling. These articles reassured me that CF is real (that was good science!) but they also show that CF has not advanced much since the 1990’s. The MIT seminar and the publication of the videos is an excellent thing, every skeptic should have a look at them, but the fact that a good loading with D2/H2 is key is not news and does not excuse the lack of progress simply because a good loading was already known and claimed by Fleischmann back in 1990.

    At the exception of the work by Piantelli & Focardi and a few other groups, no progress was made during more than 15 years. These last years have been more promising with a renewed interest in CF/LENR but the way Rossi is communicating about the E-cat as well as the bad quality of the “3rd party independent report” are not encouraging. Something (or someone…) is still missing to launch the revolution that we are all waiting for. The issue is not about the production and reporting of “anomalous heat”, it is and always has been the lack of reproducibility. And as of today I’m still waiting for a single group to solve this issue.

    • SteveW

      “-but the way Rossi is communicating about the E-cat as well as the bad quality of the “3rd party independent report are not encouraging.”

      This isn’t a science project- it’s business. Rossi has no responsibility to communicate anything.

      • Karl

        Steve I agree…

        To my mind Rossi uses fairly unorthodox communications methods
        and I must admit I admire him for it. It is not very easy to come through with such
        a message in this field nor get any serious funding. He has been successful with
        both.

        Rossi is an innovator and entrepreneur and behave like one.
        He has been clever and thanks to him there has been a raised awareness that
        have gained the people and companies involved in research and development in
        the field, to the benefit of humanity in large.

        Those who disqualified the first report by the 10 fold
        professors from reputed universities that are working with the verification of the
        Rossi claims are to my mind mostly pseudo sceptics that we have seen too much
        of in the past. Let’s wait and see what they are possible to show in the next
        report and take further critics from there.

        • Da Phys

          Why do you think the scientists who support CF did not react positively to the publication of the report? Simply because the report is crap.

          The report did only convince the non-scientists who were already convinced by the E-Cat. Please have a look at the reports written for BLP, they are in a different league.

          • GreenWin

            “Simply because the report is crap.” And by what authority or expertise do you conclude this Da Phys??” There is a huge staff of scientists who work with various Elforsk utilities in Scandanavia – Vattenfall for example. And Vattenfall published a featured article on Dr. Rossi and the Elforsk-Levi report which was extremely positive. Further testing is underway according to Elforsk/Vattenfall statements.

          • Roger Bird

            GreenWin, I salute your cool and self-control!

      • Da Phys

        Therefore it would have been better to have no report than a report that gives food to the skeptics. In comparison the reports wrote for BLP
        http://www.blacklightpower.com/technology/validation-reports/

        are of much better quality.

        • what was wrong with that draft report.

          what were the critics ? The only written critic of Pomp&Eriksson is full of errors and unscientific comments .

          The skeptic don’t need reason to criticize the Levi report…

          they just sell doubt on the people, without evidence, then doubts on the instruments, without evidences, then forget many details in the reports, critics on possible errors without asking first some checking…

          this ONLY critical paper is a shame

          http://ecatnews.com/?p=2620
          http://it.ibtimes.com/articles/52396/20130708/fusione-fredda-gravi-critiche-test-indipendenti-intervista-bo-hoistad.htm

          moreover many critics were simply based on missing data on non-scientific points (yet interesting). Most were addressed by asking the testers(P&E dis not), who seems to have been more “independent” from each others than what you could imagine.
          Many points were ridiculed by common sense or by reading the report.

          http://www.pureenergyblog.com/2013/05/26/1232/8502322_qa-with-hanno-essen-regarding-recent-e-cat-test/

          it is like the critics against F&P experiments, as Beaudette explained…

          there are only 4 and all are debunked, either are sign of incompetence of the authors (Nathan Lewis, Hansen,Morrison), or… as a confirmation and rebuttal of others critics (Wilson).

          http://iccf9.global.tsinghua.edu.cn/lenr%20home%20page/acrobat/BeaudetteCexcessheat.pdf

          the tragedy of that is that some incompetent guys says the report is bad, say there are evidence of errors, of frauds…

          and EVERYBODY BELIEVE without checking…

          they should world as salesmen for magnetic motors.

          Levi report is peer-reviewed in a way : because it was published, and no serious critics was raised.

          the only credible point is possibility of DC offset that you can ruleout only by using game theory : since (and it is proven by the link shown) the testers were allowed to do all they wanted out of the blackbox, bring their instruments, the DC offset could be detected easily and Rossi could not take the risk to do that kind of fraud.

          the good point is that because of teh draft publication, the testers know now what to check.

          No doubt their final report will be rejected. You cannot convince the pope that Jesus was a man, or a physicist that LENR is possible.

    • Karl

      It is not surprising because F&P were obviously so far
      ahead of their time. As is is successively more and more convincing that the
      phenomena can be used in real products it is likely one of the most remarkable
      discoveries in the history of mankind.

      In fact the effect of Cold Fusion is to my judgement far
      beyond the innovation of any innovation and even bigger than the fire.

      I think it is unfair to judge those who have tried hard to
      come further working under unreasonable hard conditions, ridiculing and unable
      to attain proper funding.

      Personally I think that major reasons for the difficulties to
      present a reasonable theory to describe the phenomena is based on limitation in
      the present main stream Quantum Mechanics physical theory.

      I’m just a layman in this field but I think BlackLightPower
      is on the right track when they conclude how they explain it. E.g. like Mills
      briefly explained basic components are free from magic and building structures
      of part of elementary particles, elementary particles and molecules is logically
      built up.

      This is to my understanding much in line with the BSM model
      developed by Stoyan Sarg. I must admit is fascinating view that indicate that
      there might be a need for a fairly complete renewal of the physical theories in
      a macro as well as micro scale.

      • I disagree.
        F&P were simply extremely competent in an old technology that was not fashion (unlike nuclear physics).
        They were scientific, and reported the facts despite it did not respect deified theory.
        They did mistake, and had bad luck (the book of Beaudette does not ignore their errors, and explain their cause). Lack of Internet, problem of competition in academic funding, deification of physicist after Manhattan Project, gap in culture between experimental (chemistry) and theoretical (physics) sciences, media submission to authorities…

        The tragedy for me is linked to globalization of science, where US nuclear physicist, with nature&Science, decided alone that Cold Fusion was bunk…
        Asia, chemistry, EU, had no way to dissent…

        F&P were good, but I reject neomania… they were good, but not new.
        New was the evil in that story. theory was the evil in that story. “Improvement” and “fight against bad science” was the evil in that story.

        Trying to make thing better by centralization of criteria, by consensus, made science BROKEN!

        it is the classic the Cathedral and the Bazar battle…

  • Da Phys

    Interesting discussions here. Yesterday I read again the articles published by Fleischmann&Pons in the 1980/1990’s and I had a mixed feeling. These articles reassured me that CF is real (that was good science!) but they also show that CF has not advanced much since the 1990’s. The MIT seminar and the publication of the videos is an excellent thing, every skeptic should have a look at them, but the fact that a good loading with D2/H2 is key is not news and does not excuse the lack of progress simply because a good loading was already known and claimed by Fleischmann back in 1990.

    At the exception of the work by Piantelli & Focardi and a few other groups, no progress was made during more than 15 years. These last years have been more promising with a renewed interest in CF/LENR but the way Rossi is communicating about the E-cat as well as the bad quality of the “3rd party independent report” are not encouraging. Something (or someone…) is still missing to launch the revolution that we are all waiting for. The issue is not about the production and reporting of “anomalous heat”, it is and always has been the lack of reproducibility. And as of today I’m still waiting for a single group to solve this issue.

    • SteveW

      “-but the way Rossi is communicating about the E-cat as well as the bad quality of the “3rd party independent report are not encouraging.”

      This isn’t a science project- it’s business. Rossi has no responsibility to communicate anything.

      • Karl

        Steve I agree…

        To my mind Rossi uses fairly unorthodox communications methods
        and I must admit I admire him for it. It is not very easy to come through with such
        a message in this field nor get any serious funding. He has been successful with
        both.

        Rossi is an innovator and entrepreneur and behave like one.
        He has been clever and thanks to him there has been a raised awareness that
        have gained the people and companies involved in research and development in
        the field, to the benefit of humanity in large.

        Those who disqualified the first report by the 10 fold
        professors from reputed universities that are working with the verification of the
        Rossi claims are to my mind mostly pseudo sceptics that we have seen too much
        of in the past. Let’s wait and see what they are possible to show in the next
        report and take further critics from there.

        • Da Phys

          Why do you think the scientists who support CF did not react positively to the publication of the report? Simply because the report is crap.

          The report did only convince the non-scientists who were already convinced by the E-Cat. Please have a look at the reports written for BLP, they are in a different league.

          • GreenWin

            “Simply because the report is crap.” And by what authority or expertise do you conclude this Da Phys??” There is a huge staff of scientists who work with various Elforsk utilities in Scandanavia – Vattenfall for example. And Vattenfall published a featured article on Dr. Rossi and the Elforsk-Levi report which was extremely positive. Further testing is underway according to Elforsk/Vattenfall statements.

          • Roger Bird

            GreenWin, I salute your cool and self-control!

        • Da Phys

          Why do you think the scientists who support CF did not react positively to the publication of the report? Simply because the report is crap.

          The report did only convince the non-scientists who were already convinced by the E-Cat. Please have a look at the reports written for BLP, they are in a different league.

      • Da Phys

        Therefore it would have been better to have no report than a report that gives food to the skeptics. In comparison the reports wrote for BLP
        http://www.blacklightpower.com/technology/validation-reports/

        are of much better quality.

        • Roger Bird

          The report was for Vattenfallen and Cherokee Partners and perhaps for the peanut gallery. It wasn’t for scientists or skeptopaths or politicians or anyone else. Being a member of the peanut gallery for 19 months, it worked REALLY well for me.

        • what was wrong with that draft report.

          what were the critics ? The only written critic of Pomp&Eriksson is full of errors and unscientific comments .

          The skeptic don’t need reason to criticize the Levi report…

          they just sell doubt on the people, without evidence, then doubts on the instruments, without evidences, then forget many details in the reports, critics on possible errors without asking first some checking…

          this ONLY critical paper is a shame

          http://ecatnews.com/?p=2620
          http://it.ibtimes.com/articles/52396/20130708/fusione-fredda-gravi-critiche-test-indipendenti-intervista-bo-hoistad.htm

          moreover many critics were simply based on missing data on non-scientific points (yet interesting). Most were addressed by asking the testers(P&E dis not), who seems to have been more “independent” from each others than what you could imagine.
          Many points were ridiculed by common sense or by reading the report.

          http://www.pureenergyblog.com/2013/05/26/1232/8502322_qa-with-hanno-essen-regarding-recent-e-cat-test/

          it is like the critics against F&P experiments, as Beaudette explained…

          there are only 4 and all are debunked, either are sign of incompetence of the authors (Nathan Lewis, Hansen,Morrison), or… as a confirmation and rebuttal of others critics (Wilson).

          http://iccf9.global.tsinghua.edu.cn/lenr%20home%20page/acrobat/BeaudetteCexcessheat.pdf

          the tragedy of that is that some incompetent guys says the report is bad, say there are evidence of errors, of frauds…

          and EVERYBODY BELIEVE without checking…

          they should world as salesmen for magnetic motors.

          Levi report is peer-reviewed in a way : because it was published, and no serious critics was raised.

          the only credible point is possibility of DC offset that you can ruleout only by using game theory : since (and it is proven by the link shown) the testers were allowed to do all they wanted out of the blackbox, bring their instruments, the DC offset could be detected easily and Rossi could not take the risk to do that kind of fraud.

          the good point is that because of teh draft publication, the testers know now what to check.

          No doubt their final report will be rejected. You cannot convince the pope that Jesus was a man, or a physicist that LENR is possible.

      • Da Phys

        Therefore it would have been better to have no report than a report that gives food to the skeptics. In comparison the reports wrote for BLP
        http://www.blacklightpower.com/technology/validation-reports/

        are of much better quality.

    • Karl

      It is not surprising because F&P were obviously so far
      ahead of their time. As is is successively more and more convincing that the
      phenomena can be used in real products it is likely one of the most remarkable
      discoveries in the history of mankind.

      In fact the effect of Cold Fusion is to my judgement far
      beyond the innovation of any innovation and even bigger than the fire.

      I think it is unfair to judge those who have tried hard to
      come further working under unreasonable hard conditions, ridiculing and unable
      to attain proper funding.

      Personally I think that major reasons for the difficulties to
      present a reasonable theory to describe the phenomena is based on limitation in
      the present main stream Quantum Mechanics physical theory.

      I’m just a layman in this field but I think BlackLightPower
      is on the right track when they conclude how they explain it. E.g. like Mills
      briefly explained basic components are free from magic and building structures
      of part of elementary particles, elementary particles and molecules is logically
      built up.

      This is to my understanding much in line with the BSM model
      developed by Stoyan Sarg. I must admit is fascinating view that indicate that
      there might be a need for a fairly complete renewal of the physical theories in
      a macro as well as micro scale.

      • I disagree.
        F&P were simply extremely competent in an old technology that was not fashion (unlike nuclear physics).
        They were scientific, and reported the facts despite it did not respect deified theory.
        They did mistake, and had bad luck (the book of Beaudette does not ignore their errors, and explain their cause). Lack of Internet, problem of competition in academic funding, deification of physicist after Manhattan Project, gap in culture between experimental (chemistry) and theoretical (physics) sciences, media submission to authorities…

        The tragedy for me is linked to globalization of science, where US nuclear physicist, with nature&Science, decided alone that Cold Fusion was bunk…
        Asia, chemistry, EU, had no way to dissent…

        F&P were good, but I reject neomania… they were good, but not new.
        New was the evil in that story. theory was the evil in that story. “Improvement” and “fight against bad science” was the evil in that story.

        Trying to make thing better by centralization of criteria, by consensus, made science BROKEN!

        it is the classic the Cathedral and the Bazar battle…

  • Donk970

    I think that LENR will occupy the same place in history as fire. Nothing else compares.

  • Donk970

    I wonder what it was like when man first discovered fire. I imagine that the first reaction was fear; run away or God will punish us. Then there was curiosity about what it was, maybe a younger person who didn’t believe the village elders decided to play with fire when he found it. Maybe that person discovered a dead animal that had been burned and realized that that tasted better than the raw meat he’d been eating or he discovered that on a cold night it felt pretty good to sit near a fire that was burning. When did someone figure out how to start a fire or keep an ember burning? Did the village elders react with fear and shun the wayward youngster because he was messing with something he shouldn’t?

    It seams to me that LENR research parallels the discovery of fire pretty well. Right now the village elders are fearful of this new thing. Right now we know it exists but haven’t figured out how to control it. Right now we can think of all the things that fire does that we could replace with LENR but we haven’t even begun to think of all the things we could do with LENR in the future. We are right on the cusp of history where this new fire bursts onto the scene and changes everything.

    • Roger Bird

      I have not seen much here of any discussion about how some people will fear LENR like they STILL fear microwave ovens, because microwave ovens are not “natural”. I am a natural food fanatic, but I do not fear microwave ovens, and not just because I am lazy and geared towards instantaneous gratification, but because I have not seen any evidence that microwave ovens are inherently harmful. But it is not just regulators and the alleged PTB that are often fear driven. Many people simply WILL NOT buy LENR units for their homes because of fear, ever.

      • Fortyniner

        Microwaving food destroys vitamins, alters proteins and forms more carcinogenic nitrosamines and similar compounds than oven cooking. They also leak microwave radiation to a greater extent than is often supposed, especially when grease gets into the door seals and/or microswitches, and it’s a good idea to stand clear when they are operating. It’s not a question of ‘fearing’ microwave ovens, just being aware that they damage food and emit some damaging radiation, and their use should probably be minimised if you want to eat healthily.

        http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/05/18/microwave-hazards.aspx

        • Owen Geiger

          I heard somewhere that if you put microwaved water in a fish bowl the fish will die. This would be easy to prove. And, if true, all the proof I’d need. Besides, raw fresh food is often healthier than cooked food.

          • compare with a real blank, boiled water from gas stove, or IR heating, or electric boiler.
            heating (microwave or not) water may degas, and fish need O2.

            I know many bad experiments done t accuse wifi, glyphosates, GMO…

            note that many accusation (vitamins…) against microwave are simply true for any heating, and perfectly real.

  • Donk970

    I wonder what it was like when man first discovered fire. I imagine that the first reaction was fear; run away or God will punish us. Then there was curiosity about what it was, maybe a younger person who didn’t believe the village elders decided to play with fire when he found it. Maybe that person discovered a dead animal that had been burned and realized that that tasted better than the raw meat he’d been eating or he discovered that on a cold night it felt pretty good to sit near a fire that was burning. When did someone figure out how to start a fire or keep an ember burning? Did the village elders react with fear and shun the wayward youngster because he was messing with something he shouldn’t?

    It seams to me that LENR research parallels the discovery of fire pretty well. Right now the village elders are fearful of this new thing. Right now we know it exists but haven’t figured out how to control it. Right now we can think of all the things that fire does that we could replace with LENR but we haven’t even begun to think of all the things we could do with LENR in the future. We are right on the cusp of history where this new fire bursts onto the scene and changes everything.

    • Roger Bird

      Donk999, you need a short lesson in the history of religion. When fire first appeared, it was “run away or the spirits will punish us.”

    • Roger Bird

      I have not seen much here of any discussion about how some people will fear LENR like they STILL fear microwave ovens, because microwave ovens are not “natural”. I am a natural food fanatic, but I do not fear microwave ovens, and not just because I am lazy and geared towards instantaneous gratification, but because I have not seen any evidence that microwave ovens are inherently harmful. But it is not just regulators and the alleged PTB that are often fear driven. Many people simply WILL NOT buy LENR units for their homes because of fear, ever.

      • Microwaving food destroys vitamins, alters proteins and forms more carcinogenic nitrosamines, nitrosodienthanolamines and similar compounds than oven cooking. The ovens also leak microwave radiation to a greater extent than is often supposed, especially when grease gets into the door seals and/or microswitches, and it’s a good idea to stand clear when they are operating. It’s not a question of ‘fearing’ microwave ovens, just being aware that they damage food and emit some damaging radiation, and their use should probably be minimised if you want to eat healthily.

        http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/05/18/microwave-hazards.aspx

        From another site dealing with a Russian investigation:

        “The following is a summary of the Russian investigations published by the Atlantis Raising Educational Center in Portland, Oregon. Carcinogens were formed in virtually all foods tested. No test food was subjected to more microwaving than necessary to accomplish the purpose, i.e., cooking, thawing, or heating to insure sanitary ingestion. Here’s a summary of some of the results:

        Microwaving prepared meats sufficiently to insure sanitary ingestion caused formation of d-Nitrosodienthanolamines, a well-known carcinogen.
        Microwaving milk and cereal grains converted some of their amino acids into carcinogens.
        Thawing frozen fruits converted their glucoside and galactoside containing fractions into carcinogenic substances.
        Extremely short exposure of raw, cooked or frozen vegetables converted their plant alkaloids into carcinogens.
        Carcinogenic free radicals were formed in microwaved plants, especially root vegetables.
        Decrease in nutritional value

        Russian researchers also reported a marked acceleration of structural degradation leading to a decreased food value of 60 to 90% in all foods tested. Among the changes observed were: Deceased bio-availability of vitamin B complex, vitamin C, vitamin E, essential minerals and lipotropics factors in all food tested.”

        • Tony R

          I’m sorry to say this but the story about a Russian ban on microwave ovens is an urban legend, avidly promoted by Joe Mercola, a rabid anti-vaxxer who also believes that cancer is a fungus that can be cured with injections of baking soda!

          • Perhaps you should read what Dr Mercola *actually* says about microwave cooking, before posting inaccurate and misleading Wikipedia-style dismissals:

            http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/05/18/microwave-hazards.aspx

            The fungus (Candida) theory is actually promoted by Dr. Tullio Simoncini, who suggests using sodium bicarbonate as an anti-fungal agent. Dr Mercola generally agrees with the mainstream about the nature of cancer and blames increased incidence on environmental toxins, exposure to x-rays, radioactive contamination and dietary deficits, but I have not been able to find any direct suggestions for remedies on his site, only advice for avoidance:

            The increasingly widely used sugar/bicarbonate remedy is based on the idea that strong localised tissue pH shifts towards increased alklinity interfere with respiration in cancerous cells and eventually result in apoptosis. There is a great deal of anecdotal evidence to support this treatment.

            http://www.cancertutor.com/kelmun/

          • Tony R

            I’m fully aware that the fungus theory comes from Simoncini (another quack) and btw, you don’t deny that Mercola is a rabid anti-vaxxer. And no, I have nothing to do with Wikipedia. I stand by my comment about the alleged Russian ban on microwave ovens, regardless of what Mercola says about them.

          • If you know that the fungus theory comes from Simoncini rather than Mercola, then your assertion was clearly disingenuous and intended as a smear. As far as vaccines go – or more specifically over-vaccination and the dangers of adjuvants and viral contamination – Dr Mercola is not alone:

            http://www.naturalnews.com/042012_vaccine_facts_vaccine-damaged_children_cdc.html

            “The world today has 6.8 billion people… that’s headed up to about 9 billion. Now if we do a really great job on new vaccines, health care, reproductive health services, we could lower that by perhaps 10 or 15 percent.” Bill Gates – TED speech, 2010.

            http://21stcenturywire.com/2013/03/06/bill-gates-and-polio-new-vaccines-can-help-reduce-population-by-10-15/

          • Tony R

            Disingenuousness has nothing to with this conversation. The origin of the fungus theory is irrelevant to the point I was making, i.e., that if Mercola believes the fungus theory, he’ll believe ANYTHING.

          • Roger Bird

            It is OK to toy with ideas, to be 90% certain of something, to think that one theory applies to one person with cancer and another theory applies to someone else, given that cancer may not even always be the same disease. Medical so-called science defines various cancers according to their location, which may very well be useless and even bogus. Given medical so-called science’s success rate with cancer and indeed with all chronic degenerative diseases, I would say that they really aren’t in a position to decide what is real and what is not real.

            While I am getting results, you are paying your bill. Have fun paying your bill. I bet that I am having more fun getting results.

          • Tony R

            “Medical so-called science” does NOT simply define cancers “according to their location”. You obviously have a very simplistic view of cancer research if you really believe that.

          • Roger Bird

            I don’t need to be an expert in the details of the Cultural Revolution, Nazi Germany, or the Armenian Genocide to know that they were wrong.

          • Obvious

            The full nutrient value of many foods cannot be realized without cooking. The molecules composing some foods simply cannot be digested unless altered by cooking. They just go right through a person.
            Having an association with a busy school, I have seen the results of the “no vaccination” crowd. Massive increases in sick days for the unvaccinated, and considerable spread of sickness to others (usually the families of other no vaccination parents). You can guess with a high accuracy which families are non-vaccinators based on sick days alone. (And sadly families where hygiene is not taught or encouraged). Nothing like a case of adult Chickenpox to smarten some of them up.

          • Roger Bird

            NO vaccination EVER built health in a person. They are NOT designed to build health. They are designed to build immunity for that one target disease. Your observation is based upon the very uncertain report of a sick day. My child has often taken sick days when he was perfectly healthy. Perhaps anti-vaccine people don’t believe that schools are all-knowing and all-powerful and absolutely the only way that a child can learn, so they take time off now and then.

          • Obvious

            So are you suggesting that a double blind, crossover, randomized study of vaccination use should be employed to refute my (certainly) anecdotal assertion? =)
            I would suggest that less sick = more healthful.
            I also suggest we agree to disagree, and get this thread back on the rails.
            Respectfully,
            O

          • Roger Bird

            Let Frank keep us on the rails. In the meantime, I doubt that vaccines are doing a whole lot of good with regard to the target diseases; there is some dispute about that. Plus the fact that the very people who are doing the testing and whose word we are supposed to accept are the worst bottom-feeding, scum-sucking, bags of human excrement in the world, the pharmaceutical companies, so I don’t really trust them. But there is a lot of good reasons to believe that vaccines may harm the background level of health.

            When my son had a bad reaction (but not a permanently disabling reaction, thank God) to a polio vaccine, we were done.

            Obvious, I deeply trust the pharmaceutical companies to lie and lie and lie and say ANYTHING in order to promote their own profits. ANYTHING.

          • Obvious

            I get your point with that.

          • Roger Bird

            Obvious, it is obvious that I really have a lot of passion locked up in this matter. I also have 45 years of study and experience and more study and more experience locked up into it. I gave you a plus for being nice enough to not challenge me and to show me that you are a real gentleman, even if you are right and I am wrong. The clicking plus shows up as “Guess” because my knowledge of Disqus is not a much as my knowledge of this contentious issue, so I had to leave another comment to let you know that I will put down my intellectual machine gun and go on to other subjects. (:->)

            Now, if I could figure out how to make Disqus see me as a login rather than a guest, that would make my day.

          • KareemAbdul
          • Roger Bird

            I am open to the idea of the fungus theory, but I am not open to ANYTHING. Certainly the theory that the lamestream cancer establishment has isn’t worth a shit, so if I were you I would also be open to new ideas.

          • Roger Bird

            The only leg that the pro-vaccine people have to stand on is that everyone else including the pharmaceutical companies are doing it and the anti-vaccine people do not have double-blind, crossover, randomized, VERY expensive studies/tests that prove (a negative) that vaccines are harmful. This is ALWAYS their defense. And they redefine all knowing as being ONLY double-blind, crossover, randomized, VERY expensive studies/tests. You cannot know anything because you are inherently stupid (sort of like the doctrine of original sin) and only double-blind, crossover, randomized, VERY expensive studies/tests can be the basis of any knowing.

            But the two worst things about the alternative healing movement is that it says that you can think for yourself and you can heal yourself. These two are the great crimes of alternative healing. This is what they really mean when they use the word “quack”.

            And underlying all this is that the real foundation of all knowing is that someone must make a lot of money off of it for it to be any good. So money = knowing. Our epistemology is bought and sold like a commodity. And only MDs can know the truth and speak the truth, because they make money doing so, lots and lots of money, so they must be very, very wise and insightful and wonderful. It is surprising to me that they don’t levitate when we see them. I guess we should be genuflecting when we see them; perhaps then they would bestow their glory upon us by levitating.

          • Tony R

            Typical ignorant stereotyping of any physician who dares to speak out in favour of immunization programs.

          • KareemAbdul

            Guest: To distill what you wrote –

            Cui bono?

            Follow the money.

            Two basic premises move the masses: Fear and greed.

          • Tony R

            “Naturalnews”? Oh, wow! Now you’re REALLY scraping the bottom of the barrell!

          • Tony R

            Now there’s an intended smear if ever I saw one: are you implying that Bill Gates is using vaccines to lower the population by killing their recipients, or are you saying that family planning is a bad thing? Do you think it’s desirable for impoverished parents in the developing world to be burdened with huge families?

          • Roger Bird

            All medical so-called science is quackery since it all violates and ignores the Theory of Evolution and says nothing about the overly processed, unbalanced diets and farming techniques that modern people kill themselves with. So I wouldn’t throw that ugly and extremely offensive word “quack” around because it makes you look like a skeptopath.

          • Tony R

            Please tell me how “medical so-called science” violates the theory of evolution.

          • Roger Bird

            1st, medical science is strictly evidence based, so it has no vision and gives no advice to eat foods that are paleo indicated. 2nd, ALL pharmaceutical drugs are deliberately unnatural and therefore the body has no adaptation for them, so when a person takes a pharmaceutical drug, their bodies have lots of trouble knowing how to deal with such utterly unnatural and strange substances. NO ONE ever suffered or died because of a deficiency of a pharmaceutical drug. 3rd, the body has been healing itself for hundreds of millions of years, yet modern medical so-called science does not work with this magic; it works against the body with surgery, radiation, & pharma drugs (see above).

            Any more questions?

          • Obvious

            The only thing that is unequivocally designed for humans to eat is human breast milk. Everything else is a foreign, “unnatural” substance to a human body.
            Most natural foods currently available were not available to early humans: since they are not indigenous to where humans evolved, so they too, are unnatural diet items.
            I have no idea what this subject has to do with coping with cold fusion/LENR.
            By your argument, taken to it’s logical end, excess heat and electricity are unnatural to humans, so they should not be used.
            I do respect your right to your opinions, however I do disagree with many of your assertions.

          • Roger Bird

            Some foods are farther from “designed for humans to eat” than others. The standard American diet is just too far for me and many other people to consider being healthful.

          • Tony R

            Your first assertion about things being “paleo indicated” sounds more like an article of religious dogma than a scientific statement, and your definition of evidence-based medicine makes no sense at all. Evidence based studies depend on the observation of, in this case, various diets and their impact on growth and nutrition. Where is the absence of “vision” resulting from that approach? Your second assertion about molecules being “deliberately unnatural” also begs the question. I could be facetious and say that humans are part of the natural world, and anything we synthesize is made of atoms that we happen to have put together, often with the help of “natural” enzymes or catalysts, so there is no such thing as an “unnatural” molecule. Our immune systems are able, by means of genetic recombination, to make antibodies against billions of molecules we have never encountered before, and might even never existed on earth until now. So our bodies are always “adapting” to these foreign molecules by making totally novel molecules (antibodies), while research chemists are making novel molecules in the outside world (admittedly not always with beneficial results).

          • Obvious

            People generally fail to be Darwinized by their stupidity or bad choices, since they most often breed before their bad habits and choices can catch up with them. Only in the most harsh environments do humans have a chance at physically evolving.

          • Roger Bird

            But it is beneficial to the “clan” to have old people around, to help raise children and pass on the wisdom. This is where cultural selection of the optimal diet comes into play with traditional diets.

          • Tony R

            Ah yes, “skeptopath”— a label presumably intended to cut off any further debate. In my books a quack is someone who tells a whole bunch of lies and inserts a little bit of science and a few verifiable truths here and there. That way, his/her audience becomes so confused that they no longer know what to believe. Then the quack presents himself as either a martyr or a saviour.

          • Roger Bird

            “skeptopath” cuts off debate just like the word you used: “quack”. But you started with the Q word.

            The issue with conventional medicine vs. alternative healing is EXACTLY the same as the issue with Big-Hot Fusion vs. cold fusion. Big money dictates who gets all of the attention, who can afford the big experiments, who can afford the sophisticated equipment, who can hire the most employees and the most shills, who can impress and pay the most so-called reporters. Also it is about theory vs. observation. The difference is that there WILL be a resolution with the hot fusion vs. cold fusion debate, because it will be solidly provable. With conventional medicine vs. alternative healing, I don’t see a resolution. EXCEPT that when the fusion debate is resolved, people will be much more likely to see that the so-called experts aren’t always right, that big-money is no indicator of validity, that theory is sometimes wrong and observation is sometimes right. This is one reason why I am so excited about the imminent triumph of cold fusion over hot fusion. (:->)

          • Tony R

            No, the issue with conventional medicine vs. alternative healing is that the former is scientific and the latter is usually not (note also your tacit assumption that only “alternative” treatments “heal”, when in actuality, neither modality “heals”— the body heals itself).
            BTW, I am not here as a troll, if you can believe that. I very much believe in the reality and imminent implementation of LENR. I hope this information doesn’t cause you too much cognitive dissonance.

          • Roger Bird

            Tony, the body always heals itself, but so-called alternative healing works with the body to help the body to heal itself, while conventional medicine focuses on ONLY the symptoms and ignores the whole person and its inherent healing power.

            What you called religious thinking else where (I could not find the blog entry) is what we call deductive reasoning. I know that deductive reasoning is sort of dead in the science enthralled world, but it still has value. It is what you do when the you know that the light switch is in a certain direction but the lights are off and you can’t see the light switch. I know that natural selection is true, so I deduce that generally speaking foods that have been around for 1 million years we are adapted to, and foods that have been around for only 25 years we probably are not be adapted to. With cultural selection, foods that have been passed down from generation to generation for 1000 years are probably OK because those families and clans that ate that cuisine are still here to tell us about those foods.

            Tony, I know that nothing I say will convince you because you are an unreasoning skeptopath, but I like the practice and I know that other people will read my messages and see the clear logic of what I am saying. And you can just on eating your Skittles.

          • Obvious

            When one actually manages to shift their body pH from the norm, they usually end up dead.

          • Tony R

            Amen to that. Anyone who thinks that you can treat diseases by manipulating the pH of body fluids is deluding themselves, and does not understand the behaviour of buffered solutions.

          • Roger Bird

            The so-called norm is the result of eating funky foods, over-cooked, not enough raw fruits and veggies, too much salt, too much protein, just plain ol’ “too much”, additives, artificial this and that, depleted soils, no exercise, etc. etc. etc. The Theory of Evolution and Weston A. Price are my guides. You are free to do whatever you like. I am getting results; you are paying your doctor bills.

            And the people who do raise their pH to higher levels aren’t dead; they are thriving.

          • Obvious

            Evolution is a poor guide to a healthy diet. Humans often ate badly, due to scarcity and lack of knowledge for millennia. Humans evolved, instead, to manage/thrive even with a poor diet. Note that humans are taller on average than 200 years ago. Not because of evolution, but due to a sustained, improved overall diet.

            What also comes to mind is the poor state of health of the founders of the Royal Society. They constantly experimented with chemicals in order to purge “bad humors” (from any orifice possible) due to a faulty theory of illness and medicine.

          • Roger Bird

            But the humans that survived and reproduced best and most must necessarily have been the ones that ate foods in their environment. The evolved to fit their environment. It does not matter if they did not live very long. It only matters that they evolved to adapt to their environment. I will grant you that being strict about the paleo diet is wrong, that is why I use the term paleo indicated. NO pharmaceutical drug is paleo indicated. Turmeric is paleo indicated.

          • Obvious

            Sorry, one last comment and I will move along…
            Humans probably did not evolve to fit their environment. They most likely evolved to equip themselves for success in a changing environment, or they would have failed to prosper, since the natural environment is usually inconstant.

            An organism that fits its environment perfectly has no pressure to change. That leaves only random variation in gene transfer, and if an organism is already maximized for its environment, these random changes would most likely be deleterious.

          • Roger Bird

            “Humans probably did not evolve to fit their environment.” I rest my case about the conventional medical cult. It is not scientific. Humans obviously evolved to develop all kinds of tools as you say, but LONG before they did that and while they did that, they still had to eat, and a really poor diet did not bode well for passing their genes along.

            But this is all hot air next to my successes and Weston A. Prices examples and the successes of hundreds of thousands of people who are doing what I am doing, etc.

          • Tony R

            Would you care to tell us how this raise in pH is measured in people on your diet? Can you give us the average numerical value of their pH while on this diet?

          • Tony R

            The “so-called norm” for serum pH is not something that was dreamed up by the medical establishment. The serum pH is very slightly alkaline and is very tightly controlled over a range of 7.35 to 7.45, largely by the action of the lungs and kidneys. It remains in this range regardless of your diet. If you want to see how you’d “thrive” with a pH just a little more alkaline than 7.45, just try hyperventilating for a minute and see how you feel. Very soon, the muscles in your hands and feet will start to spasm; you will feel unpleasant tingling sensations all over your body, and if you’re able to continue hyperventilating beyond this point you may actually start to convulse. All this is because the carbon dioxide you’ve blown off leaves you with a relative excess of bicarbonate in your blood stream, which leads to an alkalosis, so that your enzymes and other proteins don’t function normally and the calcium ions in your serum are mopped up by one of your serum proteins (albumin). When this happens, your muscles and nerves no longer function properly.

          • Tony R

            Exactly.

        • Owen Geiger

          I heard somewhere that if you put microwaved water in a fish bowl the fish will die. This would be easy to prove. And, if true, all the proof I’d need. Besides, raw fresh food is often healthier than cooked food.

          • Roger Bird

            Owen, that would be the experiment that I would want to see. But I haven’t. Rumors can’t stand up to my desire/need for instantaneous gratification. (:->)

            As to the other, I am a paleo/traditionalist thinker. Natural selection selects for genes that fit the diet, and cultural selection selects for the diets that fit the genes. So I am both interested in what paleo thinkers think and what Weston A. Price thinkers think.

            Human beings have been cooking foods for a very long time; the latest evidence shows 300,000 years. It is absolutely true that most people don’t get enough raw foods. Many nutrients are destroyed by cooking. And many nutrients are released by cooking, like in soups, which have a reputation for being healthful.

            My advice is to get plenty of homemade soups and lots of raw veggies. (:->)

            Roger Bird, going on 45 years as a health researcher

          • Tony R

            Well that’s hardly surprising. The same thing would happen if you put them in water that had previously been heated by ANY means, because the oxygen concentration in boiled water would be too low for the fish to survive.

          • compare with a real blank, boiled water from gas stove, or IR heating, or electric boiler.
            heating (microwave or not) water may degas, and fish need O2.

            I know many bad experiments done t accuse wifi, glyphosates, GMO…

            note that many accusation (vitamins…) against microwave are simply true for any heating, and perfectly real.

      • Microwaving food destroys vitamins, alters proteins and forms more carcinogenic nitrosamines, nitrosodienthanolamines and similar compounds than oven cooking. The ovens also leak microwave radiation to a greater extent than is often supposed, especially when grease gets into the door seals and/or microswitches, and it’s a good idea to stand clear when they are operating. It’s not a question of ‘fearing’ microwave ovens, just being aware that they damage food and emit some damaging radiation, and their use should probably be minimised if you want to eat healthily.

        http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2010/05/18/microwave-hazards.aspx

        From another site dealing with a Russian investigation:

        “The following is a summary of the Russian investigations published by the Atlantis Raising Educational Center in Portland, Oregon. Carcinogens were formed in virtually all foods tested. No test food was subjected to more microwaving than necessary to accomplish the purpose, i.e., cooking, thawing, or heating to insure sanitary ingestion. Here’s a summary of some of the results:

        Microwaving prepared meats sufficiently to insure sanitary ingestion caused formation of d-Nitrosodienthanolamines, a well-known carcinogen.
        Microwaving milk and cereal grains converted some of their amino acids into carcinogens.
        Thawing frozen fruits converted their glucoside and galactoside containing fractions into carcinogenic substances.
        Extremely short exposure of raw, cooked or frozen vegetables converted their plant alkaloids into carcinogens.
        Carcinogenic free radicals were formed in microwaved plants, especially root vegetables.
        Decrease in nutritional value

        Russian researchers also reported a marked acceleration of structural degradation leading to a decreased food value of 60 to 90% in all foods tested. Among the changes observed were: Deceased bio-availability of vitamin B complex, vitamin C, vitamin E, essential minerals and lipotropics factors in all food tested.”

      • Tony R

        Well, at least you and I agree on something!

  • Fortyniner

    Wrong. The fungus (Candida) theory is promoted by Dr. Tullio Simoncini, who suggests using sodium bicarbonate as an anti-fungal agent. Dr Mercola generally agrees with the mainstream about the nature of cancer and blames increased incidence on environmental toxins, exposure to x-rays, radioactive contamination and dietary deficits, but I have not been able to find any direct suggestions for remedies on his site, only advice for avoidance:

    http://articles.mercola.com/sites/articles/archive/2013/08/03/natural-cancer-treatment.aspx.

    The increasingly widely used sugar/bicarbonate remedy is based on the idea that strong localised tissue pH shifts towards increased alklinity interfere with respiration in cancerous cells and eventually result in apoptosis. There is a great deal of anecdotal evidence to support this treatment.

    http://www.regenerativenutrition.com/content.asp?id=490

    You don’t edit any health topics on Wikipedia I suppose?

    • Tony R

      I’m fully aware that the fungus theory comes from Simoncini (another quack) and btw, you don’t deny that Mercola is a rabid anti-vaxxer. And no, I have nothing to do with Wikipedia. I stand by my comment about the alleged Russian ban on microwave ovens, regardless of what Mercola says about them.

      • Fortyniner

        If you know that the fungus theory comes from Simoncini rather than Mercola, then your assertion was clearly disingenuous and intended as a smear. As far as vaccines go – or more specifically over-vaccination and the dangers of adjuvants and viral contamination – Dr Mercola is not alone:

        http://www.naturalnews.com/042012_vaccine_facts_vaccine-damaged_children_cdc.html

        • Tony R

          Disingenuousness has nothing to with this conversation. The origin of the fungus theory is irrelevant to the point I was making, i.e., that if Mercola believes the fungus theory, he’ll believe ANYTHING.

          • Obvious

            So are you suggesting that a double blind, crossover, randomized study of vaccination use should be employed to refute my (certainly) anecdotal assertion? =)
            I would suggest that less sick = more healthful.
            I also suggest we agree to disagree, and get this thread back on the rails.
            Respectfully,
            O

        • Tony R

          “Naturalnews”? Oh, wow! Now you’re REALLY scraping the bottom of the barrell!

        • Tony R

          Now there’s an intended smear if ever I saw one: are you implying that Bill Gates is using vaccines to lower the population by killing them, or are you saying that family planning is a bad thing? Do you think it’s desirable for impoverished parents in the developing world to be burdened with huge families?

    • Obvious

      When one actually manages to shift their body pH from the norm, they usually end up dead.

      • Roger Bird

        The so-called norm is the result of eating funky foods, over-cooked, not enough raw fruits and veggies, too much salt, too much protein, just plain ol’ “too much”, additives, artificial this and that, depleted soils, no exercise, etc. etc. etc. The Theory of Evolution and Weston A. Price are my guides. You are free to do whatever you like. I am getting results; you are paying your doctor bills.

        And the people who do raise their pH to higher levels aren’t dead; they are thriving.

        • Obvious

          Evolution is a poor guide to a healthy diet. Humans often ate badly, due to scarcity and lack of knowledge for millennia. Humans evolved, instead, to manage/thrive even with a poor diet. Note that humans are taller on average than 200 years ago. Not because of evolution, but due to a sustained, improved overall diet.

          What also comes to mind is the poor state of health of the founders of the Royal Society. They constantly experimented with chemicals in order to purge “bad humors” (from any orifice possible) due to a faulty theory of illness and medicine.

        • Tony R

          Would you care to tell us how this raise in pH is measured in people on your diet? Can you give us the actual average numerical value of their pH?

  • Obvious

    The full nutrient value of many foods cannot be realized without cooking. The molecules composing some foods simply cannot be digested unless altered by cooking. They just go right through a person.
    Having an association with a busy school, I have seen the results of the “no vaccination” crowd. Massive increases in sick days for the unvaccinated, and considerable spread of sickness to others (usually the families of other no vaccination parents). You can guess with a high accuracy which families are non-vaccinators based on sick days alone. (And sadly families where hygiene is not taught or encouraged). Nothing like a case of adult Chickenpox to smarten some of them up.

  • Obvious

    The only thing that is unequivocally designed for humans to eat is human breast milk. Everything else is a foreign, “unnatural” substance to a human body.
    Most natural foods currently available were not available to early humans: since they are not indigenous to where humans evolved, so they too, are unnatural diet items.
    I have no idea what this subject has to do with coping with cold fusion/LENR.
    By your argument, taken to it’s logical end, excess heat and electricity are unnatural to humans, so they should not be used.
    I do respect your right to your opinions, however I do disagree with many of your assertions.

  • Roger Bird

    With regard to health, I get results. As far as I can see, my opponents from the conventional medical cult get ego boosting, the satisfaction of being right, and the opportunity to slam people who don’t restrict their thinking to their left brains, all based upon theory and the word of authority figures. My results are so legion that I couldn’t list them all, but include the healing of: depression (saved my marriage); depression (saved me); endometriosis (gave me 2 wonderful children); ugly, unhealthy age spots; allergies; great progress with a pinched nerve; constipation, insomnia, etc. etc. So, how is that perspective working out for you, the “conventional medicine has a monopoly on healing” perspective. I pay close to exactly nothing for my results; are your medical bills bill making you feel even better, knowing that you are paying for treatment from people who actively disbelieve in the body’s own healing power.

    • Tony R

      Dream on in your fantasy world. You have no idea about what I do with my own health care or what I understand about the body’s regenerative powers. Why do you assume that I have ANY medical bills? My impression from reading your posts is that you are the one who thinks that you have “a monopoly on healing”. When someone thinks as simplistically as you apparently do, it’s so easy to pigeon-hole people you actually know nothing about.

  • Obvious

    Sorry, one last comment and I will move along…
    Humans probably did not evolve to fit their environment. They most likely evolved to equip themselves for success in a changing environment, or they would have failed to prosper.
    An organism that fits its environment perfectly has no pressure to change. That leaves only random variation in gene transfer, and if an organism is already maximized for its environment, these random changes would most likely be deleterious.

    • Roger Bird

      “Humans probably did not evolve to fit their environment.” I rest my case about the conventional medical cult. It is not scientific. Humans obviously evolved to develop all kinds of tools as you say, but LONG before they did that and while they did that, they still had to eat, and a really poor diet did not bode well for passing their genes along.

      But this is all hot air next to my successes and Weston A. Prices examples and the successes of hundreds of thousands of people who are doing what I am doing, etc.

  • Obvious

    I get your point with that.

    • Roger Bird

      Obvious, it is obvious that I really have a lot of passion locked up in this matter. I also have 45 years of study and experience and more study and more experience locked up into it. I gave you a plus for being nice enough to not challenge me and to show me that you are a real gentleman, even if you are right and I am wrong. The clicking plus shows up as “Guess” because my knowledge of Disqus is not a much as my knowledge of this contentious issue, so I had to leave another comment to let you know that I will put down my intellectual machine gun and go on to other subjects. (:->)

      Now, if I could figure out how to make Disqus see me as a login rather than a guest, that would make my day.

  • Tony R

    Your first assertion about things being “paleo indicated” sounds more like an article of religious dogma than a scientific statement, and your definition of evidence-based medicine makes no sense at all. Evidence based studies depend on the observation of, in this case, various diets and their impact on growth and nutrition. Where is the absence of “vision” resulting from that approach? Your second assertion about molecules being “deliberately unnatural” also begs the question. I could be facetious and say that humans are part of the natural world, and anything we synthesize is made of atoms that we happen to have put together, often with the help of “natural” enzymes or catalysts, so there is no such thing as an “unnatural” molecule. Our immune systems are able, by means of genetic recombination, to make antibodies against molecules we have never encountered before, and might even never existed on earth until now. So our bodies are always “adapting” to these foreign molecules by making totally novel molecules (antibodies), while research chemists are making novel molecules in the outside world (admittedly not always with beneficial results).

  • Tony R

    No, the issue with conventional medicine vs. alternative healing is that the former is scientific and the latter is not (note also the tacit assumption that only “alternative” treatments “heal”, when in actuality, neither modality “heals”— the body heals itself).

  • Roger Bird

    I don’t need to be an expert in the details of the Cultural Revolution, Nazi Germany, or the Armenian Genocide to know that they were wrong.