Will Government Regulations Speed Up E-Cat Adoption?

I thought Steven Karels made a very good point on the Journal of Nuclear Physics in response to a question I put to Andrea Rossi there. My question to Rossi was about how long he estimated it would take for a power plant to achieve a return on investment it switched from coal power to E-Cat power.

Rossi did not answer the question, saying that calculation could only be made after the current testing was completed, but Steve Karels responded to me saying:

In my opinion, the conversion to eCat technology for coal-fired electricity production plants will be more driven by the need to upgrade the plants to meet carbon emission reduction requirements. These modifications are estimated to increase electricity costs by between 60% and 80% of current price.

So it is a complex problem and more than a simple cost of fuel saved averaged over so many years. The carbon sequestration technology is not mature and may not be so for another 10 or 20 years. Yet governments and consumers are demanding carbon emission reductions. I think this will be the driving force for LENR insertion into electricity plants.

If this is correct, government regulations putting heavy pressure on power producers to cut carbon emissions could turn out to be a very strong incentive for the power industry to adopt E-Cat technology in large power plants. I would think that would be very welcome news to all of us who rely on the grid for our electricity, as power companies are bound to pass on any increases in production costs in higher bills to energy consumers.

And once consumers realize that technology is available to produce cheap and clean electricity they will most likely put additional pressure on the power producers to switch over to the E-Cat. What possible objections could the power producers have? Of course, as Andrea Rossi says, this is all dependent on a positive outcome from validation testing.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Waiting for the dam to burst.
    What is the current rate of production for the E-Cat?
    Is there a sales projection for 2014?
    Tax or other records for Industrial Heat 2013?

    • clovis ray

      Hi, O.R
      yep we need a investigating reporter, that knows how to look into public files, we might could figure out
      a little more about what is going on, i suspect there is a huge amount of manufacturing going on as we speak,, so to speak. with a little snooping we could figure out what is really going on, the testing could just be a false flag in order to stall for time, i think i would be building like crazy, 24/7, if that’s the case we could see some movement over at the factory, actually i think there may be two factory’s, one as a decoy.

    • GreenWin

      Documentation (screen shots are best) of Weakipedia’s behavior will continue to accumulate, making a irrefutable case against private and public censorship. Eventually, the “editors” of journals, Weakipedia, mass media, etc. will be called to answer for their actions. Even under a national security order, they will have to answer to First Amendment and prior restraint violations. It will make a riveting Supreme Court case, testing the same arguments found in The New York Times v Richard Nixon re the Pentagon Papers (1971.) In that case, MIC whistle blower Daniel Ellsberg provided the NYT a classified DOD report on failures of the Vietnam War.

      “The reasons are very clearly domestic political reasons, not national
      security at all. The reasons for the prolonged secrecy are to conceal
      the fact that so much of the policy making doesn’t bear public
      examination. It’s embarrassing, or even incriminating.”
      Ellsberg and the NYT won the case when the Court ruled public benefit of disclosure out weighed the Administration’s claim to privilege or national security. i.e. The role of a free press as watchdog over government was confirmed at the highest level. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/08/us/08pentagon.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

  • Ophelia Rump

    Waiting for the dam to burst.
    What is the current rate of production for the E-Cat?
    Is there a sales projection for 2014?
    Tax or other records for Industrial Heat 2013?

    • clovis ray

      Hi, O.R
      yep we need a investigating reporter, that knows how to look into public files, we might could figure out
      a little more about what is going on, i suspect there is a huge amount of manufacturing going on as we speak,, so to speak. with a little snooping we could figure out what is really going on, the testing could just be a false flag in order to stall for time, i think i would be building like crazy, 24/7, if that’s the case we could see some movement over at the factory, actually i think there may be two factory’s, one as a decoy.

      • Broncobet

        I’m guessing there is very little manufacturing going on.

  • theBuckWheat

    Speed up? Since liberals object to anything that allows humanity to enjoy greater prosperity, any day now environmentalists will express “concern” over the harmful effects of LENR. I suspect that the folks at BlackLight should brace for the EPA to demand they stop experiments until they can prove that hydrinos are not harmful to the ozone layer or to endangered birds being killed by wind turbines. If that fails, LENR must be scrutinized for how it might threaten the “already fragile urban heat balance”, or some such nonsense.

    • Brokeeper

      Yes, that may be true. Environmentalist’s/EPA’s power will decrease and no PTB’s likes to loose power.

    • CancunKurt

      Only in america can liberals object to something that brings more freedom. Since liberal there does not mean what liberal means anywhere else.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        In Russia there is also Vladimir Zhirinovski’s “Liberal-Democratic Party”

        • We also have a ‘Liberal Democratic’ party in the UK – a nominally left-of-center party that became so desperate for power that it tossed any principles it may have had aside and allowed an unelected right wing ‘conservative’ party to grab power by forming a ‘coalition’ with them.

          • Pekka Janhunen

            If “liberal” means “anything goes” then they lived up to their name I guess.

          • 🙁 Sadly so.

    • Donk970

      You are saying humanity when you really mean just a very tiny handful of people who enjoy the fruits of everyone else’s labor. Us liberals don’t object to prosperity we object to a few people becoming massively wealthy while everyone else is being ground into dust. All one has to do to figure out who will fight the introduction of LENR tooth and nail is to figure out who stands to loose the most money.

    • robyn wyrick

      Wow, start right out of the gate with a ideological attack. So, let me counter by saying your un-civil comment is abusive and hostile. And more to the point, inaccurate to the history of the environmental movement and liberalism in America generally.

      Environmentalists have a strong history of fighting environmental pollution, usually after decades of suffering environmental abuse. Arsenic in water is a carcinogen, fought by environmentalists, put there by industry. Benzine, Dioxin, Hex-Chromium, etc., all were introduced by toxic practices and led to the deaths of American citizens. Stillborn babies, mutagens, teratogens, cancers, reduced life expectancy – all the results of radioactive isotopes, airborne pollutants, toxic spills, and on and on. These abuses took the lives of American Citizens. It is simply unpatriotic, inhumane, and an insult to injury to dismiss them.

      It has been environmentalists who fought against these, who pushed the Clean Water Act (over Nixon’s Presidential Veto), who pushed the Clean Air Act, who push for forest conservation, animal protection, energy conservation – AND SPECIFICALLY, CLEAN ENERGY.

      So, rather than pick a fight with us, why no celebrate that we’re on the same team now. You want clean energy – we want clean energy.

      • theBuckWheat

        With the left, it is never about the cause that is claimed on the surface, it is always about the agenda of the hive mind. If what you say is true, then why did environmentalists attempt to stop solar power plants from being built in the Mojave desert? We have numerous quotes over the years that the Endangered Species Act is most useful at stopping projects, meaning that protecting the ecosystem is a means to an end.

        Time will tell about the claim that I made in my previous post. But in fact I already saw the concern being floated on leftist blogs (which is where the “delicate urban heat balance” came from) , so the issue will not be if the left tries to stop LENR, but if their opposition becomes sufficient to get any broad traction in the left hive mind and thus to rise into the political arena. That sadly is the state of our society and body politic today. The left has politicized every aspect of human existence. It is a fact of life that the rest of us have to live with and try to work around in order to get on with our lives without ending up in jail or freezing in the dark.

        • heath

          Ugh…the left. Liberals. Socialists. Hive mind. Paint everything with broad conspiratorial strokes, huh? A lot of these government regulations and agencies, though flawed, were born out of the need to strike a balance between companies wanting to make profits at the lowest cost in whatever industry and making sure they do not go too far in their narrow profit focus so as to harm American citizens, American land, air and water, and the animals and plant live onin America soil and water. Ask yourself if you would want to live in modern communist China where greed is king and the people suffer from the unrestrained pollution. If you want to see a current example in America of when these regulations are weakened by a government that believes there is too much regulation on these poor profitable energy companies, look at what is going on in North Carolina with the coal ash pollution all over the state and a government agency that has not held them accountable for their laziness.

          You should fear the fringe right just as much as the fringe left because they are just as dangerous. But for the rest of us, you can rest assured that the government must strike the balance on these things because corporate America will not, especially if it does not improve their profit margin.

      • Obvious

        The extreme left or right polarization of politics is an artefact of the mass media using, for decades, extreme opposite viewpoints as foils in falsely “balanced” arguments, because extreme arguments are sensational and sell papers (old days) and increase viewership to TV and internet pages.
        Moderate viewpoints are boring, and don’t sell media subscriptions or generate advertising viewers, and rarely do they get anyone off their couch to vote or participate in a rally.

        • bachcole

          Right Arm!!! Power to the Center. No, seriously, I agree with you. I was just trying to win a couple of humor points. It is usually the extreme that causes problems. I often listen to the extremes, but I rarely will vote for them. And when I listen to them I try to find what has value in what they are saying, but I usually don’t adopt wholesale what they have to say.

          • Obvious

            Part of the problem is the center is occupied by fence sitters that also fail to affect change. The truth is most likely somewhere between one extreme and the center. Unfortunately consensus usually involves a nearly equal number of beliefs to the opposite side of the center of a “truth”. The more controversial a “fact” is, the more the off-center truth portion is marginalized, because the majority rule by numbers, even if they are wrong.
            Just because the majority of people believe something, it does not make it true. Ochlocracy is the Achilles heel of democracy.

          • Obvious

            I will also point out that when the consensus does actually meet the truth at the center, then fence sitting is appropriate, since change from the truth is undesirable.

          • bachcole

            (:->) Will I seem wishy-washy if I agree?

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Right I agree, being a registered independent is the only way to go.

      • Broncobet

        I’m with you on the clean air and water acts.Can Nixon be any more liberal? He instituted wage and price controls.Liberasls are the worst for the enviroment,as they are against clean nuclear power,now I’m not saying all of them.James Hanson,Stuart Brand have after causing a great deal of damage have come to to right side and support fission energy.I think you and I agree that CO2 etc is really very damaging to the earth..On the other hand although I’m a Christian, the attack on evolution is so wrong and I support women’s rights to their bodies.So I suppose I’m liberal in those areas.I would like to see a LENR devise marketed but predict it will be longer than you think.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      Have you seen the pictures from China where it looks like you can cut the pollution with a knife? If it was not for our EPA that is what Chicago and New York would look like.

      • Omega Z

        Actually Bernie, If not for the People….

        The EPA is/was just a tool for those people, but it has now fallen under the influence of Special Interests of all flavors…
        They merely promote 1 view over the other depending on their current benefactor. Good/Bad doesn’t really have much to do with it. Only what direction the Political winds blow at present.

        • Bernie koppenhofer

          Just like everything else in Washington these days. So partisan nothing is accomplished.

    • Steve Peterson

      If it weren’t for those pesky Liberals they just may have gotten away with it!

      Just a SMALL sample of recent spills in America. (Exxon, Gulf Cost, 3-mile Island, Love Canal, asbestos, lead paint not even listed below)

      Duke Energy – Feb 2014: 82,000 tons of toxic coal and 27 million gallons of contaminated water into the river.

      West Virginia American Water Supple – Jan 2014: Over 3,000 gallons of highly toxic chemical spilled into the Elk River. WV banned water for 300,000 people. Symptoms include: severe burning in throat, severe eye irritation, non-stop vomiting, trouble breathing or severe skin irritation such as skin blistering.

      Picher, Okla: Most toxic place in America. The town — home to 14,000 abandoned mine shafts, 70 million tons of mine tailings and 36 million tons of mill sand and sludge — was deemed too toxic to clean up, and a federal buyout program paid people to leave. The city’s post office closed in July 2009, and the city ceased operations as a municipality on Sept. 1, 2009.

      Duke Energy – Sep 2009: Crystal River Power Plant severely cracked resulting in permanent closure. Cost $1 billion+

      TVA Kingston Fossil Plant – Dec 2008: 1.1 Billion gallons of coal fly ash released. Created 5.4 million cubic yards of sludge.

      Nuclear Fuel Services – March 2006: Plant spills 35 litres of highly enriched uranium, necessitating 7-month shutdown.

      Entergy – Indian Point Plan leaks tritium and strontium into underground lakes from 1974 to 2005.

      • theBuckWheat

        Wind turbines get a waiver from government over the problem that they kill tens of thousands of federally protected migratory birds a year. The federal fines that one department could have been levied would have totally consumed the federal subsides that another department was paying to turbine operators.

        • bachcole

          Don’t you just love government? I am inclined to think that the people ruling us should be more together and smarter than we are. Otherwise, what is the point?

          • Omega Z

            They are no smarter then the average population.
            Problem is a portion of them think they are much smarter then the General Population thus running ruff shod over everyone else reeking havoc on society.

            A Compilation of studies says that providing everyone in the World with an education to PhD level would only result in about a 1 point average increase in IQ.

            Thus, Tho Education is important in ones field of study/expertise, It is not a determining Factor in Intelligence level….

            The myth of Education=Intelligence is promoted by the Educational System & the Elite. It adds to their self importance/Prestige in an effort to separate themselves from the masses & increasing their Funding & their portfolio’s. $1 Trillion in Student loan debt…

            An important point. Nothing wrong with Education. It has undeniable benefits.
            It’s just the Education system is Gamed/Abused by a few for personal benefit/gain just like all other well intended Institutions & Systems in Society.

    • Broncobet

      I think we agree on something.I am a fan of advanced nuclear reactors(garden variety fission) and the liberals and “enviromentalists” are always against it,which makes them bad for the enviroment.BTW I’m also looking forward to the fusion plants from the Skunk Works.So we all agree that coal power is bad for the atmosphere and climate?

  • Mr. Moho

    I believe “carbon emissions” won’t be that much of a problem anymore once LENR will start becoming a widespread energy source. I’m unable to elaborate on this without getting too much political, though.

    • ecatworld

      Politics in this thread is bound to come up, and I don’t have a problem so long as people are respectful of one another.

      • Mr. Moho

        To put it very simply, the greens’ war on carbon emissions has long become a war against the wealthy. This is very conveniently similar to the manifestos of left-leaning political parties in USA and in Europe especially. Wealth is usually associated with energy consumption which is in turn associated with pollution. Once the green movements started getting vocal and political it was only a matter of time before the slowly failing left parties started joining the cause — they shared the same goal after all. While in the USA the socialist, left leaning roots of the prominent green movements are somewhat downplayed, in Europe they aren’t at all; green parties is unmistakably associated with left winged political parties and politicians, in most cases. Thats one of the reasons why they’re sometimes jokingly referred as “watermelons” (“green outside, red inside”) in right wing circles.

        Now, what would happen if what I usually define “almost ideal energy source” as LENR is, gets introduced to the market? Suddenly, energy consumption won’t be that much of polluting affair anymore. In many cases energy efficiency could be disregarded in favor of less expensive systems/appliances which have a lower purchase price, lower total cost of ownership and require less expensive (and possibly, less polluting) materials to produce. Most people could use as much energy as they wanted, without need to get worried about the environment or carbon emissions, since there wouldn’t be any. For all intents and purposes, on the long run it would help decreasing the gap between the wealthy and the poor, by increasing significantly the poor’s standards of living, not the other way round.

        Without much leverage anymore against energy consumption, the green cause and the political support against carbon emission reduction would likely quickly fall apart. Money/tax concerned politicians would probably have to find a different scare to hype up. Meanwhile, since over time nobody would want to keep using fossil fuels for uses other than manufacturing (plastics, lubricants, etc) as LENR would be a much more attractive choice for energy production, anthropogenic carbon emissions will eventually fall without need for added tax schemes and disincentives.

        I have many reasons to believe that LENR would not only be incredibly disruptive for the economy and the entire industry, but it would for politics too.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          “While in the USA the socialist, left leaning roots of the prominent green movements are somewhat downplayed, in Europe they aren’t at all; green parties is unmistakably associated with left winged political parties and politicians, in most cases.“

          Sorry, but at least regarding Germany I can definitely say that this is not true. Rather the opposite is the case: The members of the Green party here are usually more conservative than the Social Democrats. The other way round, during the last decade the Conservative party has developed affinities to basic ideas of the Green party (although there are still major differences).

          • Mr. Moho

            With “more conservative” do you mean “less left-leaning” or “right-leaning”? I’ve had a different experience with other green political groups. I guess things works differently in some countries. Could it be that you’re referring to the view of the “not tampering with nature” idea as conservative, by any chance? You would be right logically speaking, but politically speaking I don’t think you would.

            At least on the Internet my impression is that green movements around the world are mostly left-leaning, though. I can’t imagine otherwise.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            I think that the terms “left” and “right” are increasingly losing relevance. Surely you will always find some groups who try to polarize, but in my experience most people have meanwhile realized that this makes not much sense. We are all sitting in the same boat. Regarding the Green party in Germany: Yes, they had a distinctive “left” wing in the early times, but they had to assert themselves against unreasonable governments and a strong industrial lobby. Today, there is a dialogue between all involved parties, which is also not always a picnic, but obviously better than mutual destruction.

          • Fortyniner

            ‘Right’ = inclining towards capitalist fascism. ‘Left’ = inclining towards socialist fascism. This dichotomy is necessary in order to create the illusion of choice in nominally democratic societies.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Admin, “Politics in this thread is bound to come up, and I don’t have a problem so long as people are respectful of one another.” Are you sure?

    • Frank Acland

      Sure, if you can say what you want without insulting someone else.

  • barty

    First Industrial Heat should start selling AND delivering Reactors to his customers.
    Then we can talk about adoption.

  • barty

    First Industrial Heat should start selling AND delivering Reactors to his customers.
    Then we can talk about adoption.

    • Broncobet

      How?

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Speeding up the adoption of the E-cat is a test to governments. As always, the outcome could be positive but also negative…

  • Buck

    Frank, for me, the simple answer to your question is that Government regulations, specifically the air pollution regulations centered on the coal fired power plants, have, strangely enough, sped up the pending adoption of LENR. It is my understanding that upwards of 1,000 coal fired power plants are negatively impacted here in the USA, forcing the issue of finding an economically feasible replacement. IMO, without these types of public safety regulations, you would have to wait for decades before LENR made an appreciable impact because the global fossil fuel industry, among other vested interests, would provide the financial backing and political influence for protecting their turf and delaying the introduction of such a powerful solution.

    Further, IMO the question of “full speed ahead” versus “delay” centers upon the question of the safe operation of a commercially installed LENR device. As we are discussing the use of a fundamentally unknown (at this point in time) physical phenomena, no one to my understanding can provide a Physics based theoretical argument of certainty about the safety of a LENR device. The only argument available would be through the experience of successful operation across a large quantity of hours (100’s of thousands, millions, billions) where failure did not result in loss of life or excessive loss of property.

    Currently, per Rossi, the Hot-Cat is being stress tested at a “stable” operating temperature of 1100C with no stories of people being hurt or killed or buildings being blown up. Similarly, Brillouin/SRI has apparently not experienced any similar negative issues.

    To me, because of the dramatic benefits provided by a LENR power source, this ‘forces’ the Governments of the industrialized nations to allow ‘experimental’ retrofitting of some number of coal-fired power plants for a period of time. Previously, I suggested a 5 year experimental time frame before the number of LENR retrofitted power plants is expanded. And I suggested the number of ‘experimental’ power plants to be in the range of 100-400 across the globe due to the challenges of obtaining the financing for leasing and retrofitting all the power plants. Personally, I would like to see this number increased by a factor of at least 10-25.

    IMO, the above scenario forces a compromise between the ‘friends’ and ‘enemies’ of LENR, with the Governments acting as the “Public Good” policy balancing point.

    So, in the end, I see Government regulation speeding up the adoption of a technology already treated as a bastard child over the last 25 years.

  • mcloki

    China will just mandate it’s use.

    • Buck

      And that will force other countries to face the decisive question of “accelerate or delay?”

    • Broncobet

      Nasty as they are otherwise,I like their energy policies.They build about a coal plant every other day,which is poisining the earth with mercury,and the CO2,but I would do the same as their people need the electricity. They try,copy,steal,buy,and develop every type of energy device ,so if an e-cat could work it would be working in China.I like that they try all the nuclear reactor types. HTR high temperature helium reactor,LFTR,and the FHR which we are also working on but too slowly.They built the AP1000 on time on budget which no one else has,they will build thousands of fission reactors and this will clear their air,of course if e cat works they’d use that too.They are also big in wind and solar,they need and will start installing storage which is an exciting new field.They have their own hot fusion program and steal the ITER tech every day(it would be a miracle to see that work).

  • mcloki

    China will just mandate it’s use.

    • Buck

      And that will force other countries to face the decisive question of “accelerate or delay?” and IMO, there is only one rational answer: accelerate.

    • Broncobet

      Nasty as they are otherwise,I like their energy policies.They build about a coal plant every other day,which is poisining the earth with mercury,and the CO2,but I would do the same as their people need the electricity. They try,copy,steal,buy,and develop every type of energy device ,so if an e-cat could work it would be working in China.I like that they try all the nuclear reactor types. HTR high temperature helium reactor,LFTR,and the FHR which we are also working on but too slowly.They built the AP1000 on time on budget which no one else has,they will build thousands of fission reactors and this will clear their air,of course if e cat works they’d use that too.They are also big in wind and solar,they need and will start installing storage which is an exciting new field.They have their own hot fusion program and steal the ITER tech every day(it would be a miracle to see that work).

  • Wowbagger

    And allow LENR to bury the oil tycoons?
    It will come in like a swarm of bees and promptly squashed with a “BTU tax”.
    The best political system money can buy.

    • bachcole

      I see no reason why the need for tax money wouldn’t just be shifted to income tax or something else.

      Why not just reduce the power of government, but so many people have demonized the Tea Party movement when from the get-go, first and last, it was all about reducing the size of government.

      • Wowbagger

        REDUCE the size of government?
        You aren’t paying attention, are you?
        There will be new:
        Electron capture czar
        Hydrino czar
        Hyperion czar
        and any number of newly formed bureaus.

        • bachcole

          If perhaps we would stop whining and playing the victim card we might be able to organize into a group called say the Tea Party or something akin to that and make an effort to get the tyrannical bureacracy off of our backs.

          • Obvious

            Lets instead become the tyrannical bureaucracy and we can ride on the backs of the unwashed masses. So much easier…

        • Obvious

          Czars would reduce the size of government effectively, since they need no supporters, only followers. Czars abhor bureaucrats. Except tax collectors and treasurers.

          • Jimr

            Not true with current admin. The 43 czars plus staff most likely run into the 30-50 million catagory.

          • Obvious

            The low redefinition of czar from supreme ruler to civil servant debases the term to the point of meaninglessness.

      • Broncobet

        Yes if you put it like that they(the Tea Party) are heroes,but they hurt the mainstream Republicans and so help the Democrats who are pretty far left.It’s not what you are for it’s how you effect the politics of the country,we can have no more sequestor,it hurt the military badly,and stopped scientific work which is my favorite especially in the energy area.

  • Mr. Moho

    Of course the green gurus and political leaders are wealthy. It’s their voting base that isn’t.

  • Mr. Moho

    Let’s put this bluntly: I think the “carbon emission” issue is a politically overhyped one and will stop being a problem when it will not be able to be exploited anymore to raise votes (= political power), taxes or carbon reduction grants. LENR will speed up this process.

  • clovis ray

    hi, everyone,

    You know i have said for years, that we needed to get the environmentalist, involved, i too believe this will help big time.

    hey admin, we should ask Steven karlelrs, to post here, or give an interview to yourself, he’s been around the Rossi site for awhile, and should have some keen insights in to the LENR discovery,

    • Charles

      Let’s give algore credit for the invention of LENR and it will take off like a rocket. Has anyone explained his new invention to him yet?

      • GreenWin

        LOL!! Al’s kinda busy twerking his internet invention. Be persistent.

  • clovis ray

    hi, everyone,

    You know i have said for years, that we needed to get the environmentalist, involved, i too believe this will help big time.

    hey admin, we should ask Steven karlelrs, to post here, or give an interview to yourself, he’s been around the Rossi site for awhile, and should have some keen insights in to the LENR discovery,

    • Charles

      Let’s give algore credit for the invention of LENR and it will take off like a rocket. Has anyone explained his new invention to him yet?

      • GreenWin

        LOL!! Al’s kinda busy twerking his internet invention. Be persistent.

  • Bernie777

    Right I agree, being a registered independent is the only way to go.

  • Credo

    I don’t expect federal carbon emission regulations to have much effect on the adoption rate of LENR for multiple reasons primarily that U.S. carbon emissions have already peaked and are have declined 10% in just a few years even with the current level of regulation.[1]

    U.S. .carbon emissions have already declined due to a. slower economy, b. less use of coal and greater use of natural gas in electricity generation, c. technology improvements decrease usage and thus emissions etc.

    For this and other reasons I think the support for expanding government carbon controls has already peaked.

    In addition we are years away from LENR being used as a basis for centralized public power generation. It’s hard for me to see that happening until there is a theoretical understanding of how this works (which clearly is not the case – just look at the highly divergent theories proposed by the leading players today) or else at least years of practical usage that demonstrates its efficiency and reliability and safety.

    LENR will have to make its mark first in the private industrial sphere where individual companies are willing to take on risk to gain the cost benefits the technology will provide. 5 years after that maybe some smaller public installations could take place.

    Remember Rossi is offering a 1MW plant at best. A typical coal fired utility plant is 50MW to 750MW in size.[2] And neither Rossi nor his investors are anywhere near the scale of company that could possibly install in such a plant. There is just a lot of work to be done before the technology is ready and the business is developed around it and the legal framework it will have to operate in is established.

    Remember the airplane was first demonstrated in 1903 and the first semi-commercial flights weren’t until around 1920. It takes time. Now in this highly regulated highly litigious age there is little reason to think LENR would be faster.

    Also, there is a risk that eventually LENR, once accepted as real, is officially and legally labeled “nuclear” and fall under the oversight of the U.S. Nuclear Regulatory Commission and then you can guarantee that federal regulation will make LENR adoption much much slower rather than faster. At that point, it is more likely LENR comes to real practical usage faster in some other country like China, IMO.

    ————

    1. http://theenergycollective.com/jemillerep/197616/natural-gas-reducing-carbon-emissions.

    2. http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Existing_U.S._Coal_Plants

    • Charles

      “Remember the airplane was first demonstrated in 1903 and the first semi-commercial flights weren’t until around 1920.”
      Good point. Their main problem was, however, that their computers were really slow tube types that hadn’t even been invented yet and couldn’t be made because there were only 1-D printers called pencils. And besides that, they were assured that heavier-than-air flight was impossible.

      • GreenWin

        “…they were assured that heavier-than-air flight was impossible.”

        By none other than the President of the high brow Royal Society, Lord Kelvin.

      • bachcole

        Referee Intervention: Your last point is officially disallowed because we have the same problem with modern mainstream physicists saying that LENR is impossible.

        However, as a consolation prize, your main point is so well presented with flair and humor that you get an extra point.

        Around here, presentation counts. (:->)

    • bachcole

      I doubt if “peaked” is going to satisfy the environmental people.

      a. The economy is picking up.
      b. Another word borrowed from geography is “plateaued”, which is exactly what emissions from natural gas are going to do.
      c. Technology improvements can only go just so far. Then they start to cost energy and money. The sequestration idea (which is a really great word to say) is very expensive and in my view a profoundly stupid thing to do. No one even knows what sequestration is going to do to the Earth. Will we get earthquakes? No one knows. Will we poison the water supply? No one know. And on this account it would be way too late by the time we found out.

      • Broncobet

        Agree.CO2 sequestration is too expensive.

    • Steve H

      A typical coal fired power station in the UK is 1000 to 2000 MW and I don’t think we’re unique. So lots of Rossi reactors will be required to replace those installations. Also many more technicians and engineers to monitor and maintain them.
      A typical 2000 MW station will have eight steam turbines and associated boilers. That takes considerably less manpower to operate and maintain than two thousand Rossi devices and eight turbines.

      The way forward for LENR is therefore to de-centralise. Either way it’s good for employment but that will also impact on the running costs/MW.

      There is also a world shortage of industrial technicians and engineers – all the bright kids with those aptitudes chose IT as a career and have been doing so since the late 1990’s.
      These choices have had a huge impact in the present oil & gas industry – where there is a shortage of experienced technicians and engineers with the right skills.

      • Job001

        LENR implementation will not likely be based on prior art. Research underway is achieving significant progress in control, theory, scale, and design it seems. I expect LENR+ to be surprisingly large scale when implemented.

  • Obvious

    The only regulations needed are to help ensure that the things don’t cause excessive harm to the voters. Good, low-cost, clean tech sells itself to the public.
    I look forward to when “Powershiners” (analogous to Moonshiners) are on TV, hiding in the bush, avoiding cops and nosey neighbors, making LENR “stills” to sell power below utility cost…

    • GreenWin

      That’s just where we’re headed if government drags feet. The benefit to risk factor is just too great. We saw how fast the IBM personal PC was cloned. Micro-CHP energy appliances will follow the same trajectory. “Pssst… wanna buy a thousand E-CatHT clones? Meet me midnight, Pier 26.”

      • Obvious

        If the cheap copies melt and burn houses down, or hydrinos react with drywall causing chunks of houses to vaporize, you can bet that both legitimate manufacturers and the general public will demand regulations be put in place.

  • Obvious

    The only regulations needed are to help ensure that the things don’t cause excessive harm to the voters. Good, low-cost, clean tech sells itself to the public.
    I look forward to when “Powershiners” (analogous to Moonshiners) are on TV, hiding in the bush, avoiding cops and nosey neighbors, making LENR “stills” to sell power below utility cost…

    • GreenWin

      That’s just where we’re headed if government drags feet. The benefit to risk factor is just too great. We saw how fast the IBM personal PC was cloned. Micro-CHP energy appliances will follow the same trajectory. “Pssst… wanna buy a thousand E-CatHT clones? Meet me midnight, Pier 26.”

      • Obvious

        If the cheap copies melt and burn houses down, or hydrinos react with drywall causing chunks of houses to vaporize, you can bet that both legitimate manufacturers and the general public will demand regulations be put in place.

  • Chris I

    I quite agree with this guy; as soon as May Yugo will have retired, everybody will be pushing for the replacement of coal fired, then of oil fired.

  • Chris, Italy

    I quite agree with this guy; as soon as Mary Yugo will have retired, everybody will be pushing for the replacement of coal fired, then of oil fired.

    • Broncobet

      Yeah but you guys have never shown her to be in error,however much we’d like to see this actually work.

      • Chris, Italy

        Firstly, she’s in error because she often states false facts and I’ve seen paralogism in her arguments.

        Last but not least, I don’t have to prove it. Who cares about her?

  • GreenWin

    With regard to safety… billions drive cars fueled with highly toxic, flammable/explosive gasoline. Our homes are heated with poisonous highly flammable/explosive methane gas. An open electric light socket can electrocute a child. We regularly are scanned by low dosage X-ray, Magnetic NUCLEAR Resonance Imaging, microwaves from home ovens, and cell phones. We accept all these dangers because the benefit to danger ratio is ~100/1.

    We use superconducting elements (e.g. MRI) without completely understanding how they work. We are on the verge of admitting we don’t understand how the atom really works, since LENR challenges accepted theory. So, arguments that E-Cats and other CF devices must be delayed due to lack of theory and or safety issues — ring hollow. These devices are going to be EASY to build and manufacture. China, Malaysia, Singapore, Japan, Russia – any one enterprising startup could build a blackmarket LENR device which will cause a cascade of similar clones and knockoffs.

    The only way government stands a chance to get ahead of such a viral LENR blackmarket is to accept, embrace and accelerate the introduction of LENR at large and small scale. That means admitting they’ve been wrong all these years. It means government (like UK Ministry Defense) will have to acknowledge a science they’ve told us for 25 years does not exist. That’s a lot of egg. The alternative is to lose control of the technology entirely and let the blackmarket rule. Time to grow up… IMO.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      ChemE, over at vortex, thinks that Doppler radar is slowly incubating cancer in millions of people.

      • US_Citizen71

        I think fallout from above ground nuclear testing likely plays bigger a factor than doppler radar currently. Salt in the US was and still is iodized because of fallout. The red scare has long died out but the iodine remains.

        • bachcole

          Salt was iodized long before anyone ever heard of Hiroshima outside of Japan.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Officials will say that they did the right thing with the information available then. “Converted” sceptics will say the same. By the way methane is not poisnous, only asphyxiant.

      • GreenWin

        Thank you for the correction Pekka. Those who put their heads in ovens, die of oxygen deprivation aka asphyxiation. Either way, NG is explosive and deadly if mismanaged.

  • Brokeeper

    One element that always muck future predictions is the human factor. We would like to think we are altruistic by nature, but history stands to tell a different story over and over again: In many layers of society distrust breeds fear, fear breeds protectionism, protectionism breeds Inequalities, inequalities breeds control, control breeds greed, greed breeds power, power breeds corruption, corruption breeds greater distrust. How can this cycle be broken?

    We have discussed many of these links of the ‘human condition’ chain with comments of differing avenues by which this new energy will effect social imbalances (not human nature). From what I can perceive from the consensus of discussion it appears power is the weakest link by which LENR can fracture this chain. Power is an accumulative energy confined centrally and if energy is distributed more evenly then power loses its effect not only in physics but also in life. Energy is a common denominator for both. Maybe this is why we have so much hope for the E-Cat thanks to Rossi’s foresightedness in distributing cheap energy.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Only envious haters lose sleep over greed. As Milton Friedman said, “It’s always the other guy that is greedy.” You and I are simply ambitious, but that super achiever is GREEDY. Greed is good and greed is what makes the world go around. Greed is why you try to pay the least price and why the seller tries to extract the highest price. Capitalism works and it’s the only system that does work. People are dying the Venezuelan streets today, protesting against the communists.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RWsx1X8PV_A

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Govt motorcycle goons riding the streets shooting anyone that might be a protester.

        http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvhLYFazp2E

        • bachcole

          Understand all ye politically minded people, those who think that everything can be placed on a continuum from left to right, that when it comes to the government vs. the people, there is no left or right. There is only the government vs. the people.

      • Brokeeper

        Greed: is the inordinate desire to possess wealth, goods, or objects of abstract value with the intention to keep it for one’s self, far beyond the dictates of basic survival and comfort. It is applied to a markedly high desire for and pursuit of wealth, status, and power. Greed is not good, It cultivates pain on others.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          BroKeeper….thank you, the voice of reason, my blood pressure just dropped to normal. (:

          • Brokeeper

            Your welcome Bernie777. It’s interesting how TRUTH sets one free. Those are my numbers too – born 7lbs. 7oz. on the 7th of SEPTember but then someone pointed out it adds up to 666. 🙂

      • Job001

        Life is good.
        Metaphorically pure survival needs are absolutely not greed.
        Pure greed is wasteful, destructive, rent seeking, monopolizing, enslaving and life destroying.
        In-between is a neutral productivity maximum.
        We normally fail to define hill climbing success vs slippery slope decline.
        Example, the false rhyming slogan:
        “Greed is good” i.e. 1987 movie
        Illustrates US recent failure to define success in terms of life and we obtained obviously poor results (2008 great recession)for our failure to think.

      • Broncobet

        All good people are on the side of the opposition in Venezuela and your comment is very well written and true but unlikely to get the reception it deserves,people want to label others “greedy”.

    • AstralProjectee

      I know exactly what the answer is to what you are talking about. The biggest thing I see on the horizon to break this cycle is seasteading. seasteading.org Seasteading is the key, especially with cold fusion right around the corner. The reason why is that it allows government, politics, economic ideas to evolve much much faster than our current societies and countries. Many don’t get it. But I, and others get it, just like cold fusion. So in a nut shell in a seasteading society you can look at government economies, etc like a technology that must evolve or be phased out. I know it will be a LONG time before the world starts doing that, but seasteading will eventually force them to do that. And the technologies, and the seasteading societies that don’t make it will pass away. In 100-200 years from now seasteading will allow the world to look at government, politics, and economics as a technology that needs to evolve least it loses it’s population to another seastead or country. allows us as a world to start to evolve much faster. There is too much control in the world. And I can see in the next 200 years counties and ideologies fighting to keep their population through evolving their ideals from government, to politics and economics. It’s a game changer, you evolve, or you loose your population.

      Peace.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        I am 73, good luck with that. (:

  • Charles

    “Remember the airplane was first demonstrated in 1903 and the first semi-commercial flights weren’t until around 1920.”
    Good point. Their main problem was, however, that their computers were really slow tube types that hadn’t even been invented yet and couldn’t be made because there were only 1-D printers called pencils. And besides that, they were assured that heavier-than-air flight was impossible.

    • GreenWin

      “…they were assured that heavier-than-air flight was impossible.”

      By none other than the President of the high brow Royal Society, Lord Kelvin.

  • Obvious

    Lets instead become the tyrannical bureaucracy and we can ride on the backs of the unwashed masses. So much easier…

  • theBuckWheat

    Wind turbines get a waiver from government over the problem that they kill tens of thousands of federally protected migratory birds a year. The federal fines that one department could have been levied would have totally consumed the federal subsides that another department was paying to turbine operators.

  • jousterusa

    My guess is that given the current prodding by CalTech’s Dr. Weinberg, getting off the grid will come sooner from hydrino reactors than from home E-Cats.

    • Obvious

      New (3rd) report link now on the Blacklight validation thread.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Yes. Appearances deceive though. BLP has a long list of impressive third party verifications over the years, but after 25 years he cannot even put on a decent firework display. His “Demo” (Mills) was disturbingly far from production. Maybe his grandchildren can finish it for him.

    • Bernie777

      jousterusa…..Hydrino…..an “energy state below ground level”, sorry but I just cannot get my head around that one.

      • Obvious

        The general problem I have with fractional hydrogen states is that Mills predicts more of them than there are known elements. There also then is a problem potentially with the n=0 state, since it would be part of a continuum between integer and fractional states and also the less than the n = 1/137 state. The n=0 state (between n=1 and n=1/2) would be less energetic than the n=0 below the smallest 1/137 state? (I think I got that not right). If it could be demonstrated that the majority of these mathematically predicted states are non-physical, due to some resonance-cancelling method (or something to that effect), I would be more inclined to give the theory more credit.

        That said, it doesn’t mean he isn’t gaining excess energy.

  • jousterusa

    My guess is that given the current prodding by CalTech’s Dr. Weinberg, getting off the grid will come sooner from hydrino reactors than from home E-Cats.

    • Obvious

      New (3rd) report link now on the Blacklight validation thread.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Yes. Appearances deceive though. BLP has a long list of impressive third party verifications over the years, but after 25 years he cannot even put on a decent firework display. His “Demo” (Mills) was disturbingly far from production. Maybe his grandchildren can finish it for him.

    • bachcole

      No. Although I suppose that hydrino reactors may yet win the race, and may yet get to powering the grid first (I doubt it), right now they are way too noisy for home use. I don’t even want them anywhere near my neighborhood. And I don’t want 12,000 amps anywhere near my neighborhood. I could see hydrino reactors powering the grid and E-Cats powering people’s homes. But, who knows what the future will bring, except for sure things are going to change in ways that mainstream physicists deny.

      • Omega Z

        Roger
        As pointed out to me, Mills intends to do this in a vacuum, thus no sound.

        However, as of yet they don’t have a device for the repeated firing process & no MHD device to convert that to electricity.
        Long on singular aspects(Effect) & Theory, But way short on a working device for a convincing test.
        I actually have a positive view of his work. Still waiting for it to be harnessed in a manner that is useful.

        Note the Post by who appears to be Dr. Brian Ahern
        ECW
        http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/02/blacklight-power-publishes-new-validation-document-confirming-excess-energy-production/

        • There doesn’t even appear to be any real proof that the arc event is O/U. BLP doesn’t seem to be impressing anyone except a small group of apparently long-standing investors, who must by now be having some anxious moments. Mills may have charisma and he may be theoretically brilliant, but seen from a distance he comes across more as a salesman with a glossy pitch than as an inventor, and personally I don’t expect BLP to play any role in the initial emergence of CF (other than perhaps a contribution towards developing a working theory to explain LENR).

          In the page you link back to, I was much more interested in the link posted by Sandy to the MIST device, which seems to be a mechanically initiated plasma engine related to sonofusion, Stanley Meyer’s work and the various other water plasma devices that are appearing everywhere.

          I was a little surprised by the lack of comment on what looks like an extraordinary machine that could probably be fairly quickly developed for automotive use, perhaps even as a ‘drop-in’ replacement for small IC engines.

          http://mistenergysystems.com/19059/dsp_agent_page.php/195884/The_Engine/The_Engine

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      jousterusa…..Hydrino…..an “energy state below ground level”, sorry but I just cannot get my head around that one.

      • Obvious

        The general problem I have with fractional hydrogen states is that Mills predicts more of them than there are known elements. If it could be demonstrated that the majority of these mathematically predicted states are non-physical, due to some resonance-cancelling method (or something to that effect), I would be more inclined to give the theory more credit.

        That said, it doesn’t mean he isn’t gaining excess energy.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Looks like MFMP found yet another way to raise money. Are they just professional fundraisers or are they trying to do something?

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Looks like MFMP found yet another way to raise money. Are they just professional fundraisers or are they trying to do something?

    • Veblin

      Yes, they are trying to do something.
      No, they are not professional fundraisers.

      What is this “another way to raise money”?
      Why don’t you troll us what that is and what the hell you are complaining about..

      20 months of experiments.
      220+ donors.
      Donations $21,570.
      Expenses $33,115.
      Balance -$11,545 probably paid by Paul Hunt.

      • Omega Z

        +1, I agree
        Also Note: Most of those at MFMP also have day jobs.
        1000’s of hours of their own time donated without any compensation.

      • friendlyprogrammer

        Do expenses include Wages, Travel, Beer, Movies, Dining out?

        Every page of their website seems like begging for money, and they seem to be front and center of every donation scheme. These are the reasons they do not seem Legit. I’d rather donate to some of the HHO guys.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    If you think that govt regs are for the benefit and safety of the public, think again. The greatest diabetes drug ever developed, metformin, was invented in the 1920s. It was approved for use in the UK in 1958. The US didn’t approve metformin until 1995, citing the need for further studies. What better study than millions of safe efficacious prescriptions in Europe? The real reason was that US pharmaceutical companies pressured the FDA to hold off because they (the companies) were on the verge of developing a safer and more effective drug. Guess what? When the US drugs were released they were so harmful they had to be recalled. A needless 70 year wait, causing untold millions of premature deaths.

    “Some exciting research from the University of Montreal has found that the drug metformin, commonly prescribed for diabetes and polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS), has the potential to slow aging and fight cancer. The study, published inAging Cell, found that metformin reduces the body’s production of inflammatory cytokines, which accelerate aging.”
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/melaniehaiken/2013/03/27/common-drug-found-to-slow-aging-boost-cancer-recovery/

    • Obvious

      That settles it for me. Regulations are empirically equivalent to murder.

      • Veblin

        Regulations are just regulations.Some are good and some are bad. Some are made with good intentions and others obviously are not.Things are only black and white in Fox Wingnut bubble world. I’m glad I don’t live there.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          OK, most regs are bad but some are good, like when they punish Fox Wingnuts. Most people aren’t too fond of the IRS, but they turn their head when it’s used as a partisan political weapon against those they disagree with. Sic the IRS on every Fox Wingnut. Allow nonprofit status to only those organizations that you agree with.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        When the right kills thousands, it’s murder. When left kills millions, it’s ideology.

    • Bernie777

      I agree regulation can be used in a negative way, like most creations of man. But, although I believe capitalism/ free markets is the best system devised by man, if it is not effectively regulated it turns into anarchy.

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    If you think that govt regs are for the benefit and safety of the public, think again. The greatest diabetes drug ever developed, metformin, was invented in the 1920s. It was approved for use in the UK in 1958. The US didn’t approve metformin until 1995, citing the need for further studies. What better study than millions of safe efficacious prescriptions in Europe? The real reason was that US pharmaceutical companies pressured the FDA to hold off because they (the companies) were on the verge of developing a safer and more effective drug. Guess what? When the US drugs were released they were so harmful they had to be recalled. A needless 70 year wait, causing untold millions of premature deaths.

    “Some exciting research from the University of Montreal has found that the drug metformin, commonly prescribed for diabetes and polycystic ovary syndrome (PCOS), has the potential to slow aging and fight cancer. The study, published inAging Cell, found that metformin reduces the body’s production of inflammatory cytokines, which accelerate aging.”
    http://www.forbes.com/sites/melaniehaiken/2013/03/27/common-drug-found-to-slow-aging-boost-cancer-recovery/

    • Obvious

      That settles it for me. Regulations are empirically equivalent to murder.

      • bachcole

        Obvious, it is usually polite to write “(sarcasm)” when one is being sarcastic. (;->)

        • Obvious

          Thanks, bachcole, I will try that. I usually put “…” at the end when I wander into sarcasm.

          On the other hand, why criticize “black and white in Fox Wingnut bubble world” when unicorn tales fill this website like nowhere I have ever seen. IE: currently 83 comments about government regs for tech that doesn’t exist yet, 109 more on the British thinking about tech that doesn’t exist yet, and less than 70 comments on reports “validating” actual tech that was recently tested that might turn from unicorn tale vaporware into actual useable tech? (I won’t bother with a topic with >200 posts that wandered off topic about evolving humans a few days ago.)…
          Cheers,
          O

          • psi2u2

            This is all obvious, Obvious.

      • Veblin

        Regulations are just regulations.Some are good and some are bad. Some are made with good intentions and others obviously are not.Things are only black and white in Fox Wingnut bubble world. I’m glad I don’t live there.

        • AstralProjectee

          I’m totally with you on this one. I use to see the world in black and white but now I can see the world in color. My views are hardly black and white yet are subject to change according to the things I study. I was once very narrow minded, but now I see in HD, color, panoramic. 😉

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          OK, most regs are bad but some are good, like when they punish Fox Wingnuts. Most people aren’t too fond of the IRS, but they turn their head when it’s used as a partisan political weapon against those they disagree with. Sic the IRS on every Fox Wingnut. Allow nonprofit status to only those organizations that you agree with.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        When the right kills thousands, it’s murder. When left kills millions, it’s ideology.

    • Bernie Koppenhofer

      I agree regulation can be used in a negative way, like most creations of man. But, although I believe capitalism/ free markets is the best system devised by man, if it is not effectively regulated it turns into anarchy.

  • Steve H

    A typical coal fired power station in the UK is 1000 to 2000 MW and I don’t think we’re unique. So lots of Rossi reactors will be required to replace those installations. Also many more technicians and engineers to monitor and maintain them.
    A typical 2000 MW station will have eight steam turbines and associated boilers. That takes considerably less manpower to operate and maintain than two thousand Rossi devices and eight turbines.

    The way forward for LENR is therefore to de-centralise. Either way it’s good for employment but that will also impact on the running costs/MW.

    There is also a world shortage of industrial technicians and engineers – all the bright kids with those aptitudes chose IT as a career and have been doing so since the late 1990’s.
    These choices have had a huge impact in the present oil & gas industry – where there is a shortage of experienced technicians and engineers with the right skills.

    • Job001

      LENR implementation will not likely be based on prior art. Research underway is achieving significant progress in control, theory, scale, and design it seems. I expect LENR+ to be surprisingly large scale when implemented.

  • MrHattie

    If Ecat passes it’s next set of tests no incentive will be needed for the world to move to an infinite source of clean, cheap power. If ecat fails the test (which Rossi has said it might do) and it moves back to square one, then I’m sure some other cold fusion device such as Brillouin will come into play and conquer the earth while the Rossi scientific team trys again to get a workable device.

    • Remember that these tests are just a series of ‘black box’ tests on a prototype device or devices extracted from the development process six months or more ago. Development at IH has been continuous since then and probably greatly accelerated by the resources now available. The 3rd party tests are actually not that important, whatever the results – what matters is what is going on in Industrial Heat’s R&D labs right now.

      • barty

        And when well paid messurement experts are investing 6 months or more of their precious time in ecat-tests, I gues there has to be an effect or something else they are very interested in.

        So I think the tests were and are still very positive for the their party. I see no other reason why they should messure a black box which isn’t realy interesting such a long time…

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Ecat already passed a test as close to distancing himself from the Ecat as possible. Rossi won’t let an ecat out of his sight so we know any subsequent validations by him will just be open to Parody and promises of Next Year.

      I’m afraid we will need to get LENR from Jet Energy or Miley.

      • Omega Z

        FP
        No doubt, their are representatives present during the test.
        However, It would be representatives from “IH” watching over the Pixy Dust. Not Rossi.

        Truth- It is absolutely not necessary for anyone to know what the Pixy Dust is composed of in order to determine if the technology is Viable, Or Not.

        If they require this knowledge, Then they are not qualified to be doing the test to begin with.

        Elforsk is already aware of far more then we are.(They have all the Data, Not the snippet we’ve seen.) If this present test over a much longer period validates the previous test, What any of us think is irreverent. It’s not meant to convince Us. Just those who will be developing it further for market.

        • friendlyprogrammer

          You need to educate yourself what happened during his last . Simply having KNOWN some of the testers put the results in a negative view. The other complaints were that because Rossi owned the testing facility some monkey in the rafters was training a high energy laser on it.

          You can say these things do not matter, but nobody took the report or updated report seriously aside from us here.

          The qualifications of the testers were impeccable, and yet the Ecat is still not accepted.

          No.. You clearly missed all the drama surrounding his past verification. It was a circus. Ask anyone here if they think a third party verification will succeed on Rossi premises.

          • bachcole

            “Simply having KNOWN some of the testers put the results in a negative view” That could be a problem for many people. It was NOT a problem for me. I also “knew” the testors and I had every reason to believe them and NO reason to disbelieve them. In fact, disbelieving them never crossed my mind.

            The fact that it was a problem with other people is not a problem for me. This is called thinking for oneself.

          • friendlyprogrammer

            If you agree the Verification Results were tainted by Rossis friendships with the tester, or you also feel the verification was also tainted by having it done in his facility then you are agreeing with me and not Omega Z.

            I had no qualms accepting the results, and found them very impressive, especially the fact that it needed to be switched off and did not go unstable and have the process collapse.

            Omega Z is arguing as if I am criticizing the report, and your notice of Omega Z spelling and Grammar makes me think possibly this person is second Language English and does not understand my view.

            The comments just above from Omega Z are FAR from Pivitol, and if anything are absurd.

            You said yourself having colleagues on the testing panel could be a problem for many people. This is correct. A lot of people DID HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ROSSI HAVING KNOWN some of the TESTERS.

            The verification was very impressive, yet the Pathoskeptics still point to those two facts the most.
            A) The Testing occurred on Rossi property
            B) Some of the Validaters knew Rossi prior to test.

            I have no problem believing the report, but I am not mainstream science or press. I am just an Engineer who likes the Ecat.

          • bachcole

            My understanding of both you and Omega Z is that you both believe as I do that the 2013 Levi et. al. report was the gospel truth with no taint whatsoever.
            The only problem with 2013 Levi et. al. report for me is that they didn’t bother to fly me and my family to the site to enjoy the sight of the test and have a nice Italian or Swedish or whatever dinner with the testers and talk about what was going on. (:->) Other than that, it was great for me.
            Is “nice dinner” and Swedish in the same sentence good grammar? (:->)
            Roger

            Subject: Re: New comment posted on Will Government Regulations Speed Up E-Cat Adoption?

          • Omega Z

            FP Apologies.

            I did take your post as an attack on the report.

            Many of those who attack the report are misinformed or just antagonistic trolls.
            The Report could have been impeccable & would still have suffered the same attacks.

            Rossi did now a couple involved in the tests, but that was by way of them having been present at previous tests. Rossi met Levi thru Focardi inviting him to look into the E-cat. They were not life long Friends. Levi was sceptical & ran many tests of his own before taking Rossi serious.

            As for sloppy posts. To many interruptions on my end. A hit & miss proposition. Many of my posts are done over multiple interruptions.
            4 while reading your response & making this post.

          • friendlyprogrammer

            Thanks. I was assuming (see last post) we had our wires crossed, as I have written many lengthy posts defending the past verification much more emphatically than you have and with as much information.

            You just said,
            “The Report could have been impeccable & would still have suffered the same attacks.”

            Which was my roundabout point when I said,
            “Rossi won’t let an ecat out of his sight so we know any
            subsequent validations by him will just be open to Parody”

            Rossi admits he has been rejected (based only on rejected science) from obtaining various patents. This means he has no rights to his invention and he cannot allow one to leave his premises. I know I would chop it up and look inside.

            I believe in the ecat but feel they have some heavy challenges if they do not take a more proactive stance at getting LENR verified.

            There are many who are close to his level and BLP may be beyond it, so Rossi may end up losing the idea in this patent race.

            We know for Instance Toyota hired Martin Fleischmann after he was shamed out of the US because mainstream science rejected the Pons/Fleischmann 1989 reveal. We also know Toyota verified Mitsubishi LENR results using their own lab and equipment/supplies. They are just one example of a company that might jump out of woodwork and own all rights to LENR.

            We also can now name 20 or more producers of independent LENR.

            I hope for Rossi, because he did draw attention to it worldwide (Especially Nickel Hydride versions)with his 2011 public demonstrations. Some of his competitors (i.e. Defkalion) would not be in the running had he not done that.

            Rossi/Cherokee/IH should allow several of the more prominent Universities/labs in the world (whom he does not know the validation team) and allow the ecats to be tested under supervision (through a glass wall) of a Rossi aid to prevent tampering. I hope this is what his next verification looks like.

            As you say,
            “The Report could have been impeccable & would still have suffered the same attacks.”
            and I still have hopes Rossi team will win..

          • Omega Z

            This is actually all a moot point, As Industrial Heat now owns this technology. Further Criticisms are no longer Just about Rossi, But Cherokee/IH & a growing number of individuals. but…

            Ignore what the character assassins said about these people. Over a dozen very respectable experts in multiple disciplines Tested the Hot-Cat, “7” of whom put their name on the report. They have nothing to gain by providing flawed data & everything to lose if they should do so. Neither would Elforsk waste their money hiring unqualified people for such an important test.

            They brought their own equipment. They tested the mains, monitored for wireless energy transfer & every other possibility including ruling out DC voltage. They even used their Own Wire’s from the mains to connect Rossi’s power box.

            The Debunkers mostly parroted the same old claims including the secret voltage thru the ground wire. Proof they didn’t even study the report. If they had, they would have known that the Ground was unconnected laying on the bench. At least 1 of those debunkers is feeding at the Hot Fusion money train. It is his livelihood & career. You could question if his expert opinion is unbiased? He has much to lose if the E-cat works.

            This test was convincing enough to bring about 2 things. 1. A longer term test financed by Elforsk. 2. Convinced Darden to replicate the E-cat with his own people from scratch using only Rossi’s instructions & brought in an Outside Expert to audit the test for verification.

            In Effect, A 3rd party “Independent” Replication & verification of Rossi’s E-cat has taken place. This 3rd party Cherokee/IH then Purchased Rossi’s Technology & it’s secret sauce. They have been in full possession of the E-cat for more then 10 months & continue forward. They have been in contact with People involved in a Research Park in China. Questioning the Rossi Effect is sooo Last Year. Pun intended.

            The on going tests is just additional Data for Industrial Heat.
            We now face New Questions as to whether this is a viable product. Dependability, Reliability, Safety issues & Can it be Economically Harnessed. The reality of Effect itself is no longer of question.

          • bachcole

            Frank should set up a gallery of exceedingly excellent comments, pivotal comments. This your comment here Omega Z could be in that gallery, but only if someone edits the spelling and grammar. (:->) And I would volunteer to do the editing.

          • friendlyprogrammer

            I am not arguing against Rossi or LENR.

            Some of us here have been following since 2011 or before and when Rossi released a very nice Third Party Verification it was Ripped to shreds by critics (krivits (pun) arguing the test was void because it occurred on property he owned.

            People Won’t even believe NASA is invested and I have heard Zawodnt/Bushnell called renegade scientists on their own agenda and dime, but we know Nasa has invested and Bushnell/Zawodny are still employed.

            So I will say again…
            “You need to educate yourself what happened during his last . Simply
            having KNOWN some of the testers put the results in a negative view.
            The other complaints were that because Rossi owned the testing facility
            some monkey in the rafters was training a high energy laser on it.

            You can say these things do not matter, but nobody took the report or updated report seriously aside from us here.”

            There were all kinds of criticisms and none of them will be rested by having colleague scientists or verification on their premises. Any here who disagree are not familiar with the controversy surrounding his last verification.

            You can claim all the skepticism was debunked, but if that were true It would be Front Page of Nature Magazine (Praised Peer Reviewed Magazine, if it gets published there it is accepted as fact).

            I accept it as true. You accepted it as true. Now we need to convince Mainstream Science.

            You say,
            “Over a dozen very respectable experts in multiple disciplines Tested the
            Hot-Cat, “7” of whom put their name on the report. They have nothing to
            gain by providing flawed data & everything to lose if they should
            do so.”

            I will say you are preaching to the choir. I have never argued against that report, and just your tone in speaking of it implies you do not grasp the reports overall ineffectiveness, nor what I have said of it.

            Anybody with a hint of sense will realize no Third Party Verification by Rossi/Cherokee/IH will be accepted if it occurs on their premises, or if they have friends sitting on the verification team. There is too much fraud accusations in these instances.

        • bachcole

          To expand upon OZ’s 3rd paragraph starting with the word “Truth”, we already know that we don’t know how the E-Cat works, assuming that it does work. So having to know what the Pixy Dust is in order to verify that it works is bull$h!T. Knowing what the Pixy Dust is won’t help ANY AT ALL, unless it is NOT a new heat source process and the single most important technological discovery in the history of the world.

          • friendlyprogrammer

            You two are missing the point. It does NOT MATTER WHAT PIXIE DUST RUNS THE ECAT.. IT MATTERS THAT ROSSI RISKS EXPOSING SAID PIXIE DUST IF A RENAGADE SCIENTIST (LIKE ME) GETS AHOLD OF ONE AND DISSECTS IT.

            This means that Rossi/Cherokee/IH risks their catalyst if they allow off premises validation.

            This means any validation from Rossi will have the same taint on it because of the Premises issue.

            There is a much larger list of people who reject this verification for that reason than accept it.

            NOTE: I am not rejecting it. I accept it as real. I am saying as matter of Factly as possible that Verifications by Third Parties are tainted and less effective if they are done in his lab using his equipment with friends of his conducting the tests. I AM FINE WITH THIS.

          • bachcole

            And your point would be . . . . ?

            I get your point. I don’t give a rat’s ass about what other scientists think. They have already lost their credibility with me. I just care that government and mobsters (is that me being redundant?) leave Rossi and IH alone so that they can develop a product that any clear headed person who has looked at all of the evidence knows to be real.

  • Obvious

    Thanks, bachcole, I will try that. I usually put “…” at the end when I wander into sarcasm.

    On the other hand, why criticize “black and white in Fox Wingnut bubble world” when unicorn tales fill this website like nowhere I have ever seen. IE: currently 83 comments about government regs for tech that doesn’t exist yet, 109 more on the British thinking about tech that doesn’t exist yet, and less than 70 comments on actual tech that was recently tested that might turn from unicorn tale vaporware into actual tech? (I won’t bother with a topic with >200 posts that wandered off topic about evolving humans a few days ago.)…
    Cheers,
    O

    • psi2u2

      This is all obvious, Obvious.

  • Observer

    Coal saved the Forrest’s of Europe. Petroleum oil saved the whales from extinction. Just as when we depended on wood and whale oil, we have out grown our current solutions. The E-Cat will take us to the next level.

    • psi2u2

      Very nice historical contextualization.

  • Omega Z

    +1, I agree
    Also Note: Most of those at MFMP also have day jobs.
    1000’s of hours of their own time donated without any compensation.

  • Fortyniner

    Remember that these tests are just a series of ‘black box’ tests on a prototype device or devices extracted from the development process six months or more ago. Development at IH has been continuous since then and probably greatly accelerated by the resources now available. The 3rd party tests are actually not that important, whatever the results – what matters is what is going on in Industrial Heat’s R&D labs right now.

    • barty

      And when well paid messurement experts are investing 6 months or more of their precious time in ecat-tests, I gues there has to be an effect or something else they are very interested in.

      So I think the tests were and are still very positive for the their party. I see no other reason why they should messure a black box which isn’t realy interesting such a long time…

  • Omega Z

    Roger
    As pointed out to me, Mills intends to do this in a vacuum, thus no sound.

    However, as of yet they don’t have a device for the repeated firing process & no MHD device to convert that to electricity.
    Long on singular aspects(Effect) & Theory, But way short on a working device for a convincing test.
    I actually have a positive view of his work. Still waiting for it to be harnessed in a manner that is useful.

    Note the Post by who appears to be Dr. Brian Ahern
    ECW
    http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/02/blacklight-power-publishes-new-validation-document-confirming-excess-energy-production/

    • Fortyniner

      There doesn’t even appear to be any real proof that the arc event is O/U. BLP doesn’t seem to be impressing anyone except a small group of investors, who must by now be having some anxious moments. Mills may have charisma and he may be theoretically brilliant, but seen from a distance he comes across more as a salesman with a glossy pitch than as an inventor.

      In the page you link back to, I was much more interested in the link posted by Sandy to the MIST device, which seems to be a mechanically initiated plasma engine. I was a little surprised by the lack of comment on what looks like an extraordinary machine that could probably be fairly quickly developed for automotive use, perhaps even as a ‘drop-in’ replacement for small IC engines.

      http://mistenergysystems.com/19059/dsp_agent_page.php/195884/The_Engine/The_Engine

  • MikeP

    I don’t think that regulations will help speed anything… the original purpose of the regulations was to kill coal for the benefit of big oil… that’s why big oil has been one of the major funders…

  • MikeP

    I don’t think that regulations will help speed anything… the original purpose of the regulations was to kill coal for the benefit of big oil… that’s why big oil has been one of the major funders…

  • SteveW

    Here’s a nice little article on what our government and big business have done to help (sarcasm).

    http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/02/19/quest-free-free-energy/

    • GreenWin

      This should be a featured post here and elsewhere IMO. The stranglehold on energy invention held by the government/fossil/fission lobby may be the greatest fraud perpetrated against human beings. More power to Brad Olson et al for writing these books and discussing the travesty.

      • bachcole

        I like the opening quote: ““If these new energy technologies were to be set free worldwide, the
        change would be profound. It would affect everybody. It would be
        applicable everywhere. These technologies are absolutely the most
        important thing that has happened in the history of the world.” ~Dr.
        Brian O’Leary (Ph.D. in Astronomy, UC-Berkeley), NASA Astronaut,
        adjunct lecturer at Princeton, Cal. Tech., Cornell, expert on
        breakthrough energy technologies.”

        And I thought that perhaps I was being a little overly dramatic. It is the most physical or technological thing that has (or will soon happen) in the history of the world.

    • bachcole

      Oops, that wakingtimes.com article is advocating the reality of free energy, the real unreal free energy, not LENR or BLP or anything else that, to me, makes sense. My “Oops” is because I included the quote at the beginning of the article (good) with a link to the rest of the article (not good) that I sent to all of my friends. That is embarrassing and embarrassing for our cause.

      Free energy is bunk. You can’t get something for nothing. If it is true, then prove it. If it is true, then why hasn’t anyone made it happen in the past 100 years, even though we have a plethora of believers. If it is true, and if those who have developed it have been disappeared, then why haven’t their relatives complained “Johnny was working on free energy and now he has disappeared.” I haven’t heard or read that news story. Occam is whispering in my ear and telling me that such a well suppressed conspiracy is a little too complicated to believe. A simpler answer is that true free energy is untrue.

  • SteveW

    Here’s a nice little article on what our government and big business have done to help (sarcasm).

    http://www.wakingtimes.com/2014/02/19/quest-free-free-energy/

    • GreenWin

      This should be a featured post here and elsewhere IMO. The stranglehold on energy invention held by the government/fossil/fission lobby may be the greatest fraud perpetrated against human beings. More power to Brad Olson et al for writing these books and discussing the travesty.

      • bachcole

        I like the opening quote: ““If these new energy technologies were to be set free worldwide, the
        change would be profound. It would affect everybody. It would be
        applicable everywhere. These technologies are absolutely the most
        important thing that has happened in the history of the world.” ~Dr.
        Brian O’Leary (Ph.D. in Astronomy, UC-Berkeley), NASA Astronaut,
        adjunct lecturer at Princeton, Cal. Tech., Cornell, expert on
        breakthrough energy technologies.”

        And I thought that perhaps I was being a little overly dramatic. It is the most physical or technological thing that has (or will soon happen) in the history of the world.

    • bachcole

      Oops, that wakingtimes.com article is advocating the reality of free energy, the real unreal free energy, not LENR or BLP or anything else that, to me, makes sense. My “Oops” is because I included the quote at the beginning of the article (good) with a link to the rest of the article (not good) that I sent to all of my friends. That is embarrassing and embarrassing for our cause.

      Free energy is bunk. You can’t get something for nothing. If it is true, then prove it. If it is true, then why hasn’t anyone made it happen in the past 100 years, even though we have a plethora of believers. If it is true, and if those who have developed it have been disappeared, then why haven’t their relatives complained “Johnny was working on free energy and now he has disappeared.” I haven’t heard or read that news story. Occam is whispering in my ear and telling me that such a well suppressed conspiracy is a little too complicated to believe. A simpler answer is that true free energy is untrue.

  • psi2u2

    Very nice historical contextualization.

  • jousterusa

    Whatever the government does, the E-Cat must still await the production of a magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) thermal converter to produce electricity. That’s the same issue stopping commercial deployment of the hydrino reactor from BlackLight Power. There are schematics on the Internet for MHDs, including one developed by the government that ought to be free to US consumers since taxpayers paid for it. I would like to be in the MHD business right now, because it seems to be the only thing that stands in the way of a bright new era of electricity generation that is safe, clean and cheap. As such, I suspect some mfrs. will be tryng to hold inventors like Dr. Mill and Andrea Rossi hostage to a very small supply of the devices, at least at first. Like computers, I suspect they will be ubiquitous in 5 or 10 years, and dirt cheap, too.

    • ecatworld

      I don’t think Rossi is planning using MHD converters to produce electricity for now. He says the path they are pursuing is using the Carnot cycle via turbines.

      • Jimr

        Perhaps something like Green Turbines mini 1.2kw generator, ideally a 3kw unit would be ideal if reliable.

        • Jimr

          Above referring to a home unit

        • US_Citizen71

          I wonder if IH and Rossi know about them. Their little turbine looks like a good match for single ECats.

  • jousterusa

    Whatever the government does, the E-Cat must still await the production of a magnetohydrodynamic (MHD) thermal converter to produce electricity. That’s the same issue stopping commercial deployment of the hydrino reactor from BlackLight Power. There are schematics on the Internet for MHDs, including one developed by the government that ought to be free to US consumers since taxpayers paid for it. I would like to be in the MHD business right now, because it seems to be the only thing that stands in the way of a bright new era of electricity generation that is safe, clean and cheap. As such, I suspect some mfrs. will be tryng to hold inventors like Dr. Mill and Andrea Rossi hostage to a very small supply of the devices, at least at first. Like computers, I suspect they will be ubiquitous in 5 or 10 years, and dirt cheap, too.

    • Frank Acland

      I don’t think Rossi is planning using MHD converters to produce electricity for now. He says the path they are pursuing is using the Carnot cycle via turbines.

    • bachcole

      I don’t see what MHD has to do with the E-Cat.

  • off topic-

    As of Jan. 2014 Wikipedia added “DOE ARPA-E Funding Opportunity Announcement (FOA)” to their Cold Fusion definition. When I pointed this out to Popular Mechanics, http://www.popularmechanics.com/science/energy/next-generation/why-dont-we-have-fusion-power-15480435 who wrote- “Once a promising theoretical goal, the field was largely written off as pseudoscience the late1980s, when electrochemists Stanley Pons and Martin Fleischmann …..A Departmentof Energy review panel debunked the evidence, and met again in 2004 to draw the
    same conclusion. “ My comment (below) was deleted within an hour.

    “I’m amazed how science writers often rely on outdated news like 1989 or 2004. Cold Fusion or LENR is like astronomy or technology which must be updated. Just recently Hawkins declared black holes are not what we thought they were.
    As far as LENR and the Department of Energy look a little further down in Wikipedia and you’ll see the 2014 statement- In Jan, 2014 Forbes reported that “The Department of Energy included low energy nuclear reactions—which NASA
    scientists have said could fuel home nuclear reactors—among other representative technologies in a $10 million funding opportunity it announced last fall.”[16] Figure 3 of the FOA includes : “3.6chemo nuclear reactors, low-energy nuclear reactions, nuclear fuel chemistry”.

    • GreenWin

      Documentation (screen shots are best) of Weakipedia’s behavior will continue to accumulate, making a irrefutable case against private and public censorship. Eventually, the “editors” of journals, Weakipedia, mass media, etc. will be called to answer for their actions. Even under a national security order, they will have to answer to First Amendment and prior restraint violations. It will make a riveting Supreme Court case, testing the same arguments found in The New York Times v Richard Nixon re the Pentagon Papers (1971.) In that case, MIC whistle blower Daniel Ellsberg provided the NYT a classified DOD report on failures of the Vietnam War.

      “The reasons are very clearly domestic political reasons, not national
      security at all. The reasons for the prolonged secrecy are to conceal
      the fact that so much of the policy making doesn’t bear public
      examination. It’s embarrassing, or even incriminating.”
      Ellsberg and the NYT won the case when the Court ruled public benefit of disclosure out weighed the Administration’s claim to privilege or national security. i.e. The role of a free press as watchdog over government was confirmed at the highest level. http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/08/us/08pentagon.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

  • Bernie777

    I am 73, good luck with that. (:

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Do expenses include Wages, Travel, Beer, Movies, Dining out?

    Every page of their website seems like begging for money, and they seem to be front and center of every donation scheme. These are the reasons they do not seem Legit. I’d rather donate to some of the HHO guys.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Ecat already passed a test as close to distancing himself from the Ecat as possible. Rossi won’t let an ecat out of his sight so we know any subsequent validations by him will just be open to Parody and promises of Next Year.

    I’m afraid we will need to get LENR from Jet Energy or Miley.

    • Omega Z

      FP
      No doubt, their are representatives present during the test.
      However, It would be representatives from “IH” watching over the Pixy Dust. Not Rossi.

      Truth- It is absolutely not necessary for anyone to know what the Pixy Dust is composed of in order to determine if the technology is Viable, Or Not.

      If they require this knowledge, Then they are not qualified to be doing the test to begin with.

      Elforsk is already aware of far more then we are.(They have all the Data, Not the snippet we’ve seen.) If this present test over a much longer period validates the previous test, What any of us think is irreverent. It’s not meant to convince Us. Just those who will be developing it further for market.

      • friendlyprogrammer

        You need to educate yourself what happened during his last . Simply having KNOWN some of the testers put the results in a negative view. The other complaints were that because Rossi owned the testing facility some monkey in the rafters was training a high energy laser on it.

        You can say these things do not matter, but nobody took the report or updated report seriously aside from us here.

        The qualifications of the testers were impeccable, and yet the Ecat is still not accepted.

        No.. You clearly missed all the drama surrounding his past verification. It was a circus. Ask anyone here if they think a third party verification will succeed on Rossi premises.

        • Omega Z

          This is actually all a moot point, As Industrial Heat now owns this technology. Further Criticisms are no longer Just about Rossi, But Cherokee/IH & a growing number of individuals. but…

          Ignore what the character assassins said about these people. Over a dozen very respectable experts in multiple disciplines Tested the Hot-Cat, “7” of whom put their name on the report. They have nothing to gain by providing flawed data & everything to lose if they should do so. Neither would Elforsk waste their money hiring unqualified people for such an important test.

          They brought their own equipment. They tested the mains, monitored for wireless energy transfer & every other possibility including ruling out DC voltage. They even used their Own Wire’s from the mains to connect Rossi’s power box.

          The Debunkers mostly parroted the same old claims including the secret voltage thru the ground wire. Proof they didn’t even study the report. If they had, they would have known that the Ground was unconnected laying on the bench. At least 1 of those debunkers is feeding at the Hot Fusion money train. It is his livelihood & career. You could question if his expert opinion is unbiased? He has much to lose if the E-cat works.

          This test was convincing enough to bring about 2 things. 1. A longer term test financed by Elforsk. 2. Convinced Darden to replicate the E-cat with his own people from scratch using only Rossi’s instructions & brought in an Outside Expert to audit the test for verification.

          In Effect, A 3rd party “Independent” Replication & verification of Rossi’s E-cat has taken place. This 3rd party Cherokee/IH then Purchased Rossi’s Technology & it’s secret sauce. They have been in full possession of the E-cat for more then 10 months & continue forward. They have been in contact with People involved in a Research Park in China. Questioning the Rossi Effect is sooo Last Year. Pun intended.

          The on going tests is just additional Data for Industrial Heat.
          We now face New Questions as to whether this is a viable product. Dependability, Reliability, Safety issues & Can it be Economically Harnessed. The reality of Effect itself is no longer of question.

          • friendlyprogrammer

            I am not arguing against Rossi or LENR.

            Some of us here have been following since 2011 or before and when Rossi released a very nice Third Party Verification it was Ripped to shreds by critics (krivits (pun) arguing the test was void because it occurred on property he owned.

            People Won’t even believe NASA is invested and I have heard Zawodnt/Bushnell called renegade scientists on their own agenda and dime, but we know Nasa has invested and Bushnell/Zawodny are still employed.

            So I will say again…
            “You need to educate yourself what happened during his last . Simply
            having KNOWN some of the testers put the results in a negative view.
            The other complaints were that because Rossi owned the testing facility
            some monkey in the rafters was training a high energy laser on it.

            You can say these things do not matter, but nobody took the report or updated report seriously aside from us here.”

            There were all kinds of criticisms and none of them will be rested by having colleague scientists or verification on their premises. Any here who disagree are not familiar with the controversy surrounding his last verification.

            You can claim all the skepticism was debunked, but if that were true It would be Front Page of Nature Magazine (Praised Peer Reviewed Magazine, if it gets published there it is accepted as fact).

            I accept it as true. You accepted it as true. Now we need to convince Mainstream Science.

            You say,
            “Over a dozen very respectable experts in multiple disciplines Tested the
            Hot-Cat, “7” of whom put their name on the report. They have nothing to
            gain by providing flawed data & everything to lose if they should
            do so.”

            I will say you are preaching to the choir. I have never argued against that report, and just your tone in speaking of it implies you do not grasp the reports overall ineffectiveness, nor what I have said of it.

            Anybody with a hint of sense will realize no Third Party Verification by Rossi/Cherokee/IH will be accepted if it occurs on their premises, or if they have friends sitting on the verification team. There is too much fraud accusations in these instances.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Three days to this event at Triangle Park. I wonder if Industrial Heat will have anything to say there?
    With Obama’s recent endorsement of Triangle Park, this would go a long way, not exactly Govt Regulation but a start.

    http://www.rtp.org/nc-clean-tech-summit

    NC Clean Tech Summit

    Date

    2/26/2014

    Time

    7:00 AM – 5:00 PM

    Description

    Now home to 200 firms specializing in smart grid, efficient water management, and efficient transportation, North Carolina’s Research Triangle region is emerging as a global leader in clean technology. Recognizing the potential this sector has to promote sustainable economic development across the state of North Carolina, the University of North Carolina Institute for the Environment and Center for Sustainable Enterprise at the UNC Kenan-Flagler Business School, in partnership with the Research Triangle Cleantech Cluster and Strata Solar, are convening this summit to advance the development of the clean technology sector in North Carolina.

    • GreenWin

      It would be great if IH had a newly completed round of positive tests to publish. But it’s too soon and I suspect the disclosure format via ArXiv pre-publish server will remain. IH might want to discuss their current round of funding of E-Cat and plans to retrofit a stranded asset coal/NG power plant for demo purposes.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Three days to this event at Triangle Park. I wonder if Industrial Heat will have anything to say there?
    With Obama’s recent endorsement of Triangle Park, this would go a long way, not exactly Govt Regulation but a start.

    http://www.rtp.org/nc-clean-tech-summit

    NC Clean Tech Summit

    Date

    2/26/2014

    Time

    7:00 AM – 5:00 PM

    Description

    Now home to 200 firms specializing in smart grid, efficient water management, and efficient transportation, North Carolina’s Research Triangle region is emerging as a global leader in clean technology. Recognizing the potential this sector has to promote sustainable economic development across the state of North Carolina, the University of North Carolina Institute for the Environment and Center for Sustainable Enterprise at the UNC Kenan-Flagler Business School, in partnership with the Research Triangle Cleantech Cluster and Strata Solar, are convening this summit to advance the development of the clean technology sector in North Carolina.

    • GreenWin

      It would be great if IH had a newly completed round of positive tests to publish. But it’s too soon and I suspect the disclosure format via ArXiv pre-publish server will remain. IH might want to discuss their current round of funding of E-Cat and plans to retrofit a stranded asset coal/NG power plant for demo purposes.

  • Omega Z

    They are no smarter then the average population.
    Problem is a portion of them think they are much smarter then the General Population thus running ruff shod over everyone else reeking havoc on society.

    A Compilation of studies says that providing everyone in the World with an education to PhD level would only result in about a 1 point average increase in IQ.

    Thus, Tho Education is important in ones field of study/expertise, It is not a determining Factor in Intelligence level….

    The myth of Education=Intelligence is promoted by the Educational System & the Elite. It adds to their self importance/Prestige in an effort to separate themselves from the masses & increasing their Funding & their portfolio’s. $1 Trillion in Student loan debt…

    An important point. Nothing wrong with Education. It has undeniable benefits.
    It’s just the Education system is Gamed/Abused by a few for personal benefit/gain just like all other well intended Institutions & Systems in Society.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    If you agree the Verification Results were tainted by Rossis friendships with the tester, or you also feel the verification was also tainted by having it done in his facility then you are agreeing with me and not Omega Z.

    I had no qualms accepting the results, and found them very impressive, especially the fact that it needed to be switched off and did not go unstable and have the process collapse.

    Omega Z is arguing as if I am criticizing the report, and your notice of Omega Z spelling and Grammar makes me think possibly this person is second Language English and does not understand my view.

    The comments just above from Omega Z are FAR from Pivitol, and if anything are absurd.

    You said yourself having colleagues on the testing panel could be a problem for many people. This is correct. A lot of people DID HAVE A PROBLEM WITH ROSSI HAVING KNOWN some of the TESTERS.

    The verification was very impressive, yet the Pathoskeptics still point to those two facts the most.
    A) The Testing occurred on Rossi property
    B) Some of the Validaters knew Rossi prior to test.

    I have no problem believing the report, but I am not mainstream science or press. I am just an Engineer who likes the Ecat.

    • Omega Z

      FP Apologies.

      I did take your post as an attack on the report.

      Many of those who attack the report are misinformed or just antagonistic trolls.
      The Report could have been impeccable & would still have suffered the same attacks.

      Rossi did now a couple involved in the tests, but that was by way of them having been present at previous tests. Rossi met Levi thru Focardi inviting him to look into the E-cat. They were not life long Friends. Levi was sceptical & ran many tests of his own before taking Rossi serious.

      As for sloppy posts. To many interruptions on my end. A hit & miss proposition. Many of my posts are done over multiple interruptions.
      4 while reading your response & making this post.

      • friendlyprogrammer

        Thanks. I was assuming (see last post) we had our wires crossed, as I have written many lengthy posts defending the past verification much more emphatically than you have and with as much information.

        You just said,
        “The Report could have been impeccable & would still have suffered the same attacks.”

        Which was my roundabout point when I said,
        “Rossi won’t let an ecat out of his sight so we know any
        subsequent validations by him will just be open to Parody”

        Rossi admits he has been rejected (based only on rejected science) from obtaining various patents. This means he has no rights to his invention and he cannot allow one to leave his premises. I know I would chop it up and look inside.

        I believe in the ecat but feel they have some heavy challenges if they do not take a more proactive stance at getting LENR verified.

        There are many who are close to his level and BLP may be beyond it, so Rossi may end up losing the idea in this patent race.

        We know for Instance Toyota hired Martin Fleischmann after he was shamed out of the US because mainstream science rejected the Pons/Fleischmann 1989 reveal. We also know Toyota verified Mitsubishi LENR results using their own lab and equipment/supplies. They are just one example of a company that might jump out of woodwork and own all rights to LENR.

        We also can now name 20 or more producers of independent LENR.

        I hope for Rossi, because he did draw attention to it worldwide (Especially Nickel Hydride versions)with his 2011 public demonstrations. Some of his competitors (i.e. Defkalion) would not be in the running had he not done that.

        Rossi/Cherokee/IH should allow several of the more prominent Universities/labs in the world (whom he does not know the validation team) and allow the ecats to be tested under supervision (through a glass wall) of a Rossi aid to prevent tampering. I hope this is what his next verification looks like.

        As you say,
        “The Report could have been impeccable & would still have suffered the same attacks.”
        and I still have hopes Rossi team will win..

  • friendlyprogrammer

    You two are missing the point. It does NOT MATTER WHAT PIXIE DUST RUNS THE ECAT.. IT MATTERS THAT ROSSI RISKS EXPOSING SAID PIXIE DUST IF A RENAGADE SCIENTIST (LIKE ME) GETS AHOLD OF ONE AND DISSECTS IT.

    This means that Rossi/Cherokee/IH risks their catalyst if they allow off premises validation.

    This means any validation from Rossi will have the same taint on it because of the Premises issue.

    There is a much larger list of people who reject this verification for that reason than accept it.

    NOTE: I am not rejecting it. I accept it as real. I am saying as matter of Factly as possible that Verifications by Third Parties are tainted and less effective if they are done in his lab using his equipment with friends of his conducting the tests. I AM FINE WITH THIS.

  • mickd

    EPAs carbon regulation will have a big effect because small lenr plants added to coal plants will reduce total carbon just enough to meet gradually tougher emissions. Utilities preserve their existing capital investment in coal by adding incremental small lenr augmenting plants to keep up with phased in regulation.

  • mickd

    EPAs carbon regulation will have a big effect because small lenr plants added to coal plants will reduce total carbon just enough to meet gradually tougher emissions. Utilities preserve their existing capital investment in coal by adding incremental small lenr augmenting plants to keep up with phased in regulation.

    • bachcole

      You are right, and that looks good for LENR. But as a political science comment/lesson, those regulations will stay on the books for 1,000 years.

      • MickD

        If you mean that the augmented coal plant will remain forever, the: Carbon restrictions on existing plants will probably be modest at first and then get tougher as technology improves. Eventually as added LENR power capability approaches the coal generator output, companies may shut down the coal plant.

  • Chris I

    Firstly, she’s in error because she often states false facts and I’ve seen paralogism in her arguments.

    Last but not least, I don’t have to prove it. Who cares about her?

  • MickD

    If you mean that the augmented coal plant will remain forever, the: Carbon restrictions on existing plants will probably be modest at first and then get tougher as technology improves. Eventually as added LENR power capability approaches the coal generator output, companies may shut down the coal plant.