Wild Speculation E-Cat Test Guessing Thread

I’m a little nervous to do this, because I think it’s wise not to expect too much of this current testing regimen — but since we are in the dark about so much, I thought it would be interesting and maybe entertaining to put a thread up where people can discuss their expectations about the results of the long-term testing in terms of the expected performance of the Hot Cat. I am posting a comment just received from ECW reader Lilylover to kick off this thread:

Dear E-Catters:

Omega Z’s calculation will indicate that Dr. Rossi has the best quality of fans that are not only smart but also very tenacious, like himself, in following him.

So, COP 35 is the educated guess. I’ll make an emotional guess of COP 60 along with the prediction that the report-makers will totally depart from the “COP” terminology.

Sorry to overanalyze Rossi’s words… If a long term test was less than satisfactory for first half of the test, expecting that to improve in the later half of the test on its own will fit the popular definition of insanity.
Therefore, the first half of the test must have been “good enough” or “investment grade” or “about 10% ROI (for a new small firm)”.

Only then would the IH continue to support perpetuation of the test despite contracts. Because, as smart as Rossi is, team of IH lawyers can always advise to bankrupt the “LLC” to exit the obligations to save money. Stretching this a little further, if first 1/3rd of the test was bad, then the later 2/3rd would have to be exceptionally good to make up for it. That also means, the first 2/3rd has to be at acceptable level. Since magic won’t happen between first 1/3rd and second 1/3rd – they would have stopped the “long term” test after the failure of the first 1/3rd. They did not. It simply means – to IH, so far, it must mean – “investment grade” success. That is good enough. Not great, but good enough. They’ll take that.

Now, if things have gone wrong in the long term test, what can Rossi possibly do to fix it in 3 days? Nothing.
The 0.99 vs 1.01 is great academic discussion but we all ‘know’ our interest is in proof of at least 2.5 or say 6, like he likes to claim.

If the team is competent, and the dispute is between 5.5 vs 5.8 it does not matter to us. That can be resolved in 3 days. If the dispute is between 2.5 vs 5.0 – there is a big error on part of the calculators which Rossi can help rectify in 3 days. For that to happen, he must have the true data without sabotage. His lawyers must have tried for milestone-data of the ongoing test to better equip him in his ongoing R&D and future defence.

But, like Rossi says, he has had no data. Then he must have installed some mechanism that will yield him true data. If the data is true, he can analyze it in 3 days.

The biggest question becomes – How does Rossi know that the exact replica of the real data is provided to him? How will that happen? The good data will be used to raise capital and not so good data will be used to bargain Rossi’s rights. How can we know – if that will not happen?

I believe if a man as smart as Rossi can trust IH, I’ll let IH have my goodwill. If the dispute is between 0.99 vs 6, we (I) know IH is sabotaging Rossi to delay the E-Cat. In the event that IH cheats Rossi, my last shred of faith in humanity (lawyers) will evaporate.
I’ll still continue to trust Rossi.

So, as a guessing game, I request you to make COP guesses or any other guesses (Admin – good topic to poll?) that will make you feel happy about the “Official Long-Term Independent Report”. I say COP 60 for heat … And an extra prediction for his other current work — COP 6 for direct electricity.

Have a good day!


So the question at hand is — what result will make you feel happy about prospects for E-Cat technology?

  • Christopher Calder

    I speculate that Defkalion’s new reactor design will have a COP over 30. I would be very happy if Rossi’s Hot-Cat reaches a COP of 10. I think Rossi’s design is really made for hybrid, co-generation energy systems to use with natural gas. Rossi still uses heat to control the reaction while Defkalion uses electric sparks, which require much less energy input.

    • that was their claims.

      Nelson found no more than COP3 with acceptable excuses (low temp), and from exchanging with him, he confirms his report but consider it was not enough to be sure of the results.

      The demo of last summer was a nice pony show. there is no evidence of fraud from public data, nor enough data to be sure of anything either. Gamberale is not convinced, and his behavior (ending Defkalion Europe) is challenging the claims of Defkalion, more than any skeptic theory. There is a credible hypothesis for both sides, and many buzz and private claims.There is big ego, big money, big attorneys in that story, I’m afraid it is complicated and unpredictable, with no possible conclusion that can be excluded. I expect the worst and cannot exclude the best. As I said to cimpy when I was more optimistic, there is no reason to be sure of a problem, but we need more data. Since then Defkalion gave no data, which is their right, which may be rational, but which may hide huge problems.

      Evidence and behaviors are more instructive than claims, and here we have weak evidence and challenging behaviors.

      best is to ignore them until they communicate with real data. We have enough good data with E-cat, Brillouin, Mizuno, Nanortech, ENEA…

  • I speculate that Defkalion’s new reactor design will have a COP over 30. I would be very happy if Rossi’s Hot-Cat reaches a COP of 10. I think Rossi’s design is really made for hybrid, co-generation energy systems to use with natural gas. Rossi still uses heat to control the reaction while Defkalion uses electric sparks, which require much less energy input.

    • that was their claims.

      Nelson found no more than COP3 with acceptable excuses (low temp), and from exchanging with him, he confirms his report but consider it was not enough to be sure of the results.

      The demo of last summer was a nice pony show. there is no evidence of fraud from public data, nor enough data to be sure of anything either. Gamberale is not convinced, and his behavior (ending Defkalion Europe) is challenging the claims of Defkalion, more than any skeptic theory. There is a credible hypothesis for both sides, and many buzz and private claims.There is big ego, big money, big attorneys in that story, I’m afraid it is complicated and unpredictable, with no possible conclusion that can be excluded. I expect the worst and cannot exclude the best. As I said to cimpy when I was more optimistic, there is no reason to be sure of a problem, but we need more data. Since then Defkalion gave no data, which is their right, which may be rational, but which may hide huge problems.

      Evidence and behaviors are more instructive than claims, and here we have weak evidence and challenging behaviors.

      best is to ignore them until they communicate with real data. We have enough good data with E-cat, Brillouin, Mizuno, Nanortech, ENEA…

      • Mark Smylie

        I suspect the mouse has become more of a throttle than an exciter in the e cat .
        The power required for the mouse is therefore less as a percentage of total power.
        The COP could be very high 20 to 40 or above.

        • Ophelia Rump

          Thermal mass is the ultimate stabilizer for temperature.
          You need to match the thermal mass and regulate the heat exchange.
          This is low tech. Any other instability would have been caused by the reaction consisting of intermittent bursts of energy and the size of the reaction site not being large enough to ensure statistically homogeneous energy bursts. This was probably overcome when they turned up the power for the Hot-Cat.

          Here is a guess, they will only produce one model of core, it will be the Hot-Cat.

          • catman

            From what I know, a really good guess.

  • Billy Jackson

    4.5 cop

    • Christopher Calder

      “4.5 COP”

      You could be right. If it is less than COP 6 Rossi’s design will be questioned in terms of economic viability. COP 6 would be acceptable.

  • Billy Jackson

    4.5 cop

    • “4.5 COP”

      You could be right. If it is less than COP 6 Rossi’s design will be questioned in terms of economic viability. COP 6 would be acceptable.

  • artefact

    17.7

    • orsobubu

      Good observation, going together with the question of LENRs capitalistic sustainability (fall of profits). Another corollary is which would be the impact of increasing (very cheap) energy production on biosphere: the heat barrier is a limit independently by carbon-induced greenhouse effect. The phenomenon is analysed in the well-known book “Human colonies in space” by late professor Gerard K. O’Neill; he would be very pleased to know about an energy source like E-Cat and its possible applications in space environments, where he envisioned to transfer large parts of inhabitants and production plants.

  • artefact

    17.7

  • astralprojectee

    With a COP high enough that skeptical scientists will acknowledge that if that this is real, then we have something very special here. Whatever COP that is IDK. And of course a COP any higher would be great.

  • Barry8

    6 cop (there’s never a cop around when you need one). By the way Frank, what do we win?

    • ecatworld

      I think a Barry Simon CD.

  • 6 cop (there’s never a cop around when you need one). By the way Frank, what do we win?

    • Frank Acland

      I think a Barry Simon CD.

      • bachcole

        I don’t want a Barry Simon CD, whoever he is. I want a ticket to the press conference. (:->)

        • orsobubu

          Bwahhahha!

          • artefact

            🙂

  • parallelB

    We know nothing about the two stage Mouse and Cat. IF the mouse is small and it’s output can be used for the Cat, I presume the COP will be over 6. From the first test it looks like it was below 6 for the Hot Cat alone. Much hinges on the development of the control system.

  • AdrianAshfield

    We know nothing about the two stage Mouse and Cat. IF the mouse is small and it’s output can be used for the Cat, I presume the COP will be over 6. From the first test it looks like it was below 6 for the Hot Cat alone. Much hinges on the development of the control system as the COP depends on getting close to losing stability.

  • Obvious

    Rossi has claimed repeatedly that the output has been intentionally limited for safety fail-safe reasons. The output/input ratio should be around 8:1 which is the design rate. At later times he also claimed around 6:1 for production units. He has claimed that above 10:1 run away power problems become more common. Over 30:1 has been claimed in test units not intended for production.
    Chris below mentioned the electrical input. Rossi’s response to this is that is not required per se, but is necessary for safety reasons, to ensure shut down. It is a sort of “dead man switch”. He may have adjusted the safety input power to run in pulses, to reduce input consumption but still maintain a safety shut down protocol. That may slightly increase the 6:1 output to the 8:1 figure.

    • Omega Z

      That was before the Cat/Mouse design.

  • Obvious

    Rossi has claimed repeatedly that the output has been intentionally limited for safety fail-safe reasons. The output/input ratio should be around 8:1 which is the design rate. At later times he also claimed around 6:1 for production units. He has claimed that above 10:1 run away power problems become more common. Over 30:1 has been claimed in test units not intended for production.
    Chris below mentioned the electrical input. Rossi’s response to this is that is not required per se, but is necessary for safety reasons, to ensure shut down. It is a sort of “dead man switch”. He may have adjusted the safety input power to run in pulses, to reduce input consumption but still maintain a safety shut down protocol. That may slightly increase the 6:1 output towards the 8:1 figure.

    • Omega Z

      That was before the Cat/Mouse design.

  • Daniel Maris

    I think anything over 2 observed over many days would be of interest and unlikely to result from measurement error.

  • Teemu Soilamo

    I want to believe, but the E-Cat is too good to be true. So, I’ll play the Devil’s Advocate. What could be motivating Rossi? I believe it’s more than money. It’s not God, that’s simply a way for the con man to invoke the religious among us. When Rossi was in prison, he ate off his hatred. He wanted to get back at the world. And what a better way to have revenge than to waste many people’s time by giving them false hope and then crushing their dreams?

    If the E-Cat works, I’ll be ecstatic. But if it doesn’t, maybe, just maybe I’ll have the solace of being right. Like anyone will care, heh.

    • Kwhilborn

      The President of The United States gave Rossi a United States Visa prior to The Mafia (apparently Italy has a Mafia also) moving in on his waste management business by having laws changed, etc. Andrea Ross could have simply stayed in the United States to avoid charges but returned to face them like a man and the charges were beaten (Except a bit on tax evasion).

      It would have to be a ridiculous con to fool so many academics (Focardi) who actually participated in the experiments. A Con just does not make sense.

      • bachcole

        Such a con would shame Bernie Madoff, not financially, yet, but the number and range of the participants.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        Focardi was already old and possibly senile by the time Rossi met him. He could’ve easily been taken advantage of. I’m not saying I’m right, I’m just trying to think of plausible reasons why Rossi has continued to “work” on the E-Cat for so long. Where did you get the information regarding the persecution?

        • bachcole

          Teemu, I up voted you not because you are right but because you are polite and persistent. If you are going to look at the social evidence, then you have to look at the gestalt, all of the social evidence at once. You can’t pick just away at this datapoint and then that datapoint and then this other datapoint. If you look at Focardi and Lewans and Rossi winning the European long distance championship and Levi and Essen etc. etc. etc. etc., then you see a pattern that is simply undeniable.

        • Kwhilborn

          I think Krivit (Rossi arch enemy # 1/Head snake) carries a Rossi Biography. Rossi also sponsored a Formula 3 Racing team, and was the fastest runner in his class (worldwide) for several years.

      • Daniel Maris

        All Italians evade taxes – and that includes just about all the lawmakers who impose them!

    • Ophelia Rump

      Wow Teemu, you are a deeply disturbed individual.

    • BroKeeper

      “When Rossi was in, prison, he ate off his hatred. He wanted to get back at the world”,
      really? Now who is invoking a God complex to who only possess such mind/heart reading powers? A word of experiential advice – stay with your own observations – it’s much safer.

      • Billy Jackson

        i choose 4.5 for the following reason. the last test they claimed at least a COP of 10 for the 100+ hour test. i think that over a 6 month period that the COP would go down due to wear on the material making it less and less effective without renewal.

    • Daniel Maris

      I’d say it was inherently implausible that a scammer who had already had four years in prison would choose to base themselves in the USA, where – if they got convicted for another of their scams they could end up serving a decade or more in prison – given that there is no particular reason why he needed to do that to perpetrate the scam.

      Either Rossi is near unique sort of individual – a genius of illusion and trickery, a world class charmer who can bamboozle hundreds of highly intelligent people with some fiendishly clever bogus devices – or he is genuine. The odds are on him being genuine I would say.

      But you are right in the sense that this is still an open question.

      • he did not pass 4 years in jail at all…

        few month in many periond if I remember well

        maybe it is said in the evidence I gathered

        http://www.lenr-forum.com/old-forum/showthread.php?2384-History-of-Rossi-E-cat

        • Daniel Maris

          Yep – I wondered about that. I checked it out on Wikipedia. Maybe the info there is wrong.

          • all the information about cold fusion is fraud on wikipedia.

            they refuse to cite critics of their pretended rebuttal, theiy refused to admit Rossi was innocented by Italian court on last trial.

            it is like reading a wikipedia made by Greenpeace on nuclear powerplant design.

            you should read the report in “il couriere della sierra”, which is very negative but finally get factual on checkable facts.

      • Omega Z

        Note Scammers never let people get or look to close at their project either let alone assemble it themselves.

  • Teemu Soilamo

    I want to believe, but the E-Cat is too good to be true. So, I’ll play the Devil’s Advocate. What could be motivating Rossi? I believe it’s more than money. It’s not God, that’s simply a way for the con man to invoke the religious among us. When Rossi was in prison, he ate off his hatred. He wanted to get back at the world. And what a better way to have revenge than to waste many people’s time by giving them false hope?

    If the E-Cat works, I’ll be ecstatic. But if it doesn’t, maybe, just maybe I’ll have the solace of being right. Like anyone will care, heh.

    • bachcole

      I did not believe in the E-Cat until the evidence was in, not because Rossi had emotional problems.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        There is still no evidence, strictly speaking. I’m hoping that Levi is not involved this time, because he could be a cohort of Rossi’s. This is nothing personal against Dr. Levi, but he’s a “wild card” in that he’s been present during all the important tests, and moreover, provided the instrumentation.

        • Omega Z

          Dr. Levi was a Friend of Focardi. He introduced Levi to Rossi in order to have Levi do his own evaluations.
          Note that Levi & about a half dozen others(Including Focardi) had spent several years doing their Own Nickle/Hydrogen experiments at the University of Bologna.

          They had their own excess heat results, but couldn’t keep it stable & running for long. I think I recall they even obtained very high temps for very short periods. They had pretty much given up.

    • Kwhilborn

      The President of The United States gave Rossi a United States Visa prior to The Mafia (apparently Italy has a Mafia also) moving in on his waste management business by having laws changed, etc. Andrea Ross could have simply stayed in the United States to avoid charges but returned to face them like a man and the charges were beaten (Except a bit on tax evasion).

      It would have to be a ridiculous con to fool so many academics (Focardi) who actually participated in the experiments. A Con just does not make sense.

      • bachcole

        Such a con would shame Bernie Madoff, not financially, yet, but the number and range of the participants.

      • Teemu Soilamo

        Focardi was already old and possibly senile by the time Rossi met him. He could’ve easily been taken advantage of. I’m not saying I’m right, I’m just trying to think of plausible reasons why Rossi has continued to “work” on the E-Cat for so long. He could’ve just taken the money and ran. Where did you get the information regarding the persecution?

        • bachcole

          Teemu, I up voted you not because you are right but because you are polite and persistent. If you are going to look at the social evidence, then you have to look at the gestalt, all of the social evidence at once. You can’t pick just away at this datapoint and then that datapoint and then this other datapoint. If you look at Focardi and Lewans and Rossi winning the European long distance championship and Levi and Essen etc. etc. etc. etc., then you see a pattern that is simply undeniable.

        • Kwhilborn

          I think Krivit (Rossi arch enemy # 1/Head snake) carries a Rossi Biography. Rossi also sponsored a Formula 3 Racing team, and was the fastest runner in his class (worldwide) for several years.

          As far as Focardi goes. Rossi may have “used” him (he did pay), but the Nickel/Hydrogen reaction Rossi is claiming originated from Piantelli/Focardi. The focus lately on Hydrogen/Nickel is mostly due to Rossi, although we could trace it back as far as the Patterson Cell.

          You can see Focardi discuss the reactor while alive via Youtube. He appears to have all of his wits.

          Also.. All of Rossi’s work has theme of environmental science. He cont’d to work when he was worth $30 million (USD). He had funded Ecat on his own and hired space and Focardi. etc for at least 5 years. I do not think he was ever “poor” in terms some of us think.

    • Brokeeper

      “When Rossi was in, prison, he ate off his hatred. He wanted to get back at the world”. Now who is invoking a God complex, to who only possess such mind/heart reading powers? A word of experiential advice – stay with your own limited observations – it’s much safer.

  • Vlk

    Rossi is still saying, the test is not finished on JONP

  • kasom

    COP will be above 10 for sure.

    What nobody has mentioned before is, that not only the providers of energy will suffer from LENR but everyone who sells a product which is an ENERY SAVER anyhow.

    Why shall anyone invest in insolation of buildings, mobile homes, industrial premises or even in energy saving processes and materials, when the cost of heat decreases significantly?

    • LilyLover

      Think of it as parallel redundancy, with an option to axe grid. This is the modern form of revolution. Corner the small guy into scarcity based paradigm represents today’s grid. Energy grid and banking gridlocks are synonymous. If the grid/matrix conforms to your will, it may live. If it does not, it’s abandoned. There is no need to isolate. But a point will come when people will – just because they can. Empty-nesters’ independent children. Freedom.
      As of now people are scared of automation vs jobs, they are scared of abundance based paradigm shift. Crying in famine is natural. The “Grid” has artificially taught us to cry in surplus. The revolution of isolated cheap energy is the biggest threat to Controllers of the World. Think of this as chemical precipitation or color change in titration. It has enormous significance. The bulk of the change is unnoticed. After the color change – there is sudden awareness. Then, people will learn to enjoy abundance. They’ll compete to produce the most efficient bulb for the sake of fun/competition/Science regardless of the investment needed. Unhindered progress. Take that bulb as an example and think about everything amazon sells. Apply abundance. Humanity will be free from bondage of needless “work”.

    • orsobubu

      Good observation, going together with the question of LENRs capitalistic sustainability (fall of profits). Another corollary is which would be the impact of increasing (very cheap) energy production on biosphere: the heat barrier is a limit independently by carbon-induced greenhouse effect. The phenomenon is analysed in the well-known book “Human colonies in space” by late professor Gerard K. O’Neill; he would be very pleased to know about an energy source like E-Cat and its possible applications in space environments, where he envisioned to transfer large parts of inhabitants and production plants.

    • Christina

      As someone has written here before, it’s not good for the environment to have large amounts of heat escaping, so there will still be insulation because of that.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I truly hope you are incorrect. I hope that we have learned something by now.

      Because if you believe in Global Warming, you ain’t seen nothing yet, until you see an entire planet go hog wild on a virtually limitless supply of virtually no cost power.

      Honestly if I believed you were right, I would be screaming for someone to stop Rossi before it is too late. Without restraint humanity would par boil this entire plant and drink the last drop of organic matter.

      • GreenWin

        Ophelia, you make several pejorative assumptions by such speculation. First, inexpensive, clean, abundant electricity raises global standards of living – empowering the 2.5 billion humans who have no access to electricity now. Energy is key to healthcare, education, nutrition, and lower birthrates. When standards of living rise, birthrates descend. We have no social studies (I’m aware of) that indicate a higher standard of living results in “hog wild” behavior. However, this may be a reason for elites PTB to fight so hard against abundance and energy in particular.

        For some, the idea of an empowered proletariat is frightening and dismissive of a convenient hierarchy. The introduction of abundance will distribute power more equitably and require several generations. It is highly doubtful humanity will par boil the planet – any more than AGW has raised global temperatures.

      • bachcole

        Do the math. If everyone of 12 billion people have a 10 kW e-cat, and . . . . . Do the math. I’ve already done the math, and I don’t want to do it again. The addition of heat via 10,000,000,000 10kW e-cats is insignificant. I’ll take CO2 emissions as a threat over that, and I don’t take CO2 emissions.

      • Omega Z

        OR
        I have no doubt that this technology will bring down all energy costs & the cost of all products that require energy to produce.
        But I think most are going to be disappointed when they find out the cost of having an off grid system in their homes.

        They will find they have traded High Energy bills for High Payments for their system. At least for the foreseeable future.
        The additional components to make this happen are not cheap. Some will cost substantially more then what it would replace.

        There’s just so many things we take for granted. In a harsh winter It would require 2 hot cats to heat my home.(Many would need more) 1 Hot cat would barely supply on demand low volume hot water for a shower. Therefore an Insulated holding tank would be required. Guess that would be the same place the present water heater sits.

        If one were gone at work all day, It wouldn’t be that big a problem, but once you get home & start using things, Then you have a problem. A 10Kw Hot cat isn’t going to cut it.

    • Billy Jackson

      because as of now the device still has to be powered. (made up numbers) if your putting 300 watts in and getting 1000 watts out.. you still gotta pay for those 300 watts to the electric company.

      Also consider another prospective please.

      the energy companies that serve you also stand to make decent money off this too. they will be the early adopters applying electricity in mass. its not like we can go to home depot and buy one day one. its going to take years to catch up with demand once they go on sale.

      i can see the electric companies moving to a service based business model instead of supply. they will supply you your ecat with a 2-5 year agreement plan. which includes service, and maintenance all with little to no out of pocket expenses to you. (think cellphone contract but with the energy companies instead)

      there are going to be A LOT of people who just wont be able to hook these things up and maintain them.. i don’t wanna call them stupid people.. but lets just say.. willfully ignorant with no inclination to improve.. (doing so also removes overhead and frees up resources for the energy companies.. will they survive in their present form? no.. but don’t rule out them changing and jumping on an advantageous plan that works for them.

      I can see ways just with that model of maintaining most utilities at or near thier current level of profits.
      Savings for them.
      Less fuel needed to power the grid (savings)
      Less Line Maintenance needed due to lower demand
      Service infrastructure for the consumer (think cell phone rates but use electricity instead of minutes)
      excess electricity ran back from your house to the grid thus giving even more of a savings..

      • Omega Z

        Hadn’t thought about the Phone type of plan. Maybe.
        I look for it to be a local Grid system. With Cats for base heating/cooling systems.
        That being because a complete system would be out of reach for most people.
        Hot-cat, Turbines, Generators, Heat exchangers, Etc..
        Likely $20K to $30K or more. Add to that, 10Kw Hot-cat wont cover all the demand for a single dwelling. Most will need 2 or 3 Cats. The price just went up.

        • Billy Jackson

          http://www.eia.gov/tools/faqs/faq.cfm?id=97&t=3

          In 2012, the average annual electricity consumption for a U.S.
          residential utility customer was 10,837 kWh, an average of 903
          kilowatthours (kWh) per month. Louisiana had the highest annual
          consumption at 15,046 kWh and Maine the lowest at 6,367 kWh.

          (not saying your wrong just providing numbers to look at) 😛

          • Omega Z

            Hey Billy

            Yes, I’m aware of those numbers.
            The problem is we use little electricity part of the time and a lot at other times.
            That peek demand is the problem. Energy companies can actually produce less power per household then an individual needs to produce.

    • Omega Z

      They will insulate for comfort.
      Believe me. It makes a big difference & I’m not talking about the cost of heating.
      Without Insulation, you have hot & cold spots. No equilibrium. You’ll either be to warm or to cool. Kind of like standing by a campfire at night. You cook the side next to the fire while the back side freezes. Your body doesn’t know what to do. Shiver or spin.

  • bachcole

    Lilylover brings up a good point. A COP of 1.1 should make academia wildly enthusiastic and interested (but it doesn’t seem to be.) But a COP of 1.1 would be a complete yawn for business people. Business people don’t give a fig if there is a COP of 1.1.

    • Fibber McGourlick

      A scientifically proven cop of 1.1 would be the equivalent of a thousand times the first heavier than air flight. The world will stop breathing for a second, and when the second was over it would begin the transformation into Eden.

    • Obvious

      Since I put a range on it originally, I’ll go with 6.8 as my final guess.

      • bachcole

        I think that we should bet on it, not that I actually have any money. But the rest of you bet on it and I’ll watch.

  • bachcole

    My guess is a COP of 13.5.

  • jonnyb

    I would go for COP of 36. 6 for the mouse 6 for the cat, assuming there are no losses coupling them together.

    • Omega Z

      The Mouse only has a COP=1.1
      It’s rated 1Kw output, but requires approximately 910 watts input. Functions only 25% of the time.
      The Cat has no COP of it’s own. It’s Rated to output 10Kwh.
      However, as long as the Mouse keeps triggering the effect it could be rated infinite or until it exhausts it’s Charge.

      • jonnyb

        Oh well there goes my guess then. Any one seen BLP’s latest mock up diagram? What do you think?

      • Ophelia Rump

        I laughed when I read that! You should get a prize for enthusiasm for saying that.

        Yes, yes it would indeed, but I think you will find any COP over ten will eventually make it possible. Without a serious energy replacement mankind is falling back to earth to stay.
        like a failed seed.

        An early hope of the space program was to farm hydrogen in space to fuel the space program and mankind, then it shifted to the hope that Helium 3 could be harvested on the moon. Maybe LENR will make both possible, then all we need to do is stabilize this planet while we still have one.

  • jonnyb

    I would go for COP of 36. 6 for the mouse 6 for the cat, assuming there are no losses coupling them together.

    • Omega Z

      The Mouse only has a COP=1.1
      It’s rated 1Kw output, but requires approximately 910 watts input. Functions only 25% of the time.
      The Cat has no COP of it’s own. It’s Rated to output 10Kwh.
      However, as long as the Mouse keeps triggering the effect it could be rated infinite or until it exhausts it’s Charge.

      • jonnyb

        Oh well there goes my guess then. Any one seen BLP’s latest mock up diagram? What do you think?

        • bachcole

          Aren’t I the official spiritual New Age air-head around here, yet I seem to be one of the few that demand actual, physical demonstrations and not plans and diagrams and models and theories. When Mills comes up with a real demo with real energy burning real fingers, then I will get interested in anything that they (BLP) have to say. I promise. Otherwise, it is ZZZZZZZZZ.

  • LilyLover

    Think of it as parallel redundancy, with an option to axe grid. This is the modern form of revolution. Corner the small guy into scarcity based paradigm represents today’s grid. Energy grid and banking gridlocks are synonymous. If the grid/matrix conforms to your will, it may live. If it does not, it’s abandoned. There is no need to isolate. But a point will come when people will – just because they can. Empty-nesters’ independent children. Freedom.
    As of now people are scared of automation vs jobs, they are scared of abundance based paradigm shift. Crying in famine is natural. The “Grid” has artificially taught us to cry in surplus. The revolution of isolated cheap energy is the biggest threat to Controllers of the World. Think of this as chemical precipitation or color change in titration. It has enormous significance. The bulk of the change is unnoticed. After the color change – there is sudden awareness. Then, people will learn to enjoy abundance. They’ll compete to produce the most efficient bulb for the sake of fun/competition/Science regardless of the investment needed. Unhindered progress. Take that bulb as an example and think about everything amazon sells. Apply abundance. Humanity will be free from bondage of needless “work”.

  • Dods
  • Dods
  • Teemu Soilamo

    There is still no evidence, strictly speaking. I’m hoping that Levi is not involved this time, because he could be a cohort of Rossi’s. This is nothing personal against Dr. Levi, but he’s a “wild card” in that he’s been present during all the important tests, and moreover, provided the instrumentation.

    • Omega Z

      Dr. Levi was a Friend of Focardi. He introduced Levi to Rossi in order to have Levi do his own evaluations.
      Note that Levi & about a half dozen others(Including Focardi) had spent several years doing their Own Nickle/Hydrogen experiments at the University of Bologna.

      They had their own excess heat results, but couldn’t keep it stable & running for long. I think I recall they even obtained very high temps for very short periods. They had pretty much given up.

      • Omega Z

        They could Note the extended longevity of it in the final report.
        It would need to be noted that the Data itself is of the Base test.
        If careless in how they report it, it could call into question of the validity of the entire test.

  • orsobubu

    jonnyb 36
    bachcole 13,5
    kasom 10
    obvious 8
    parallelb 6
    barry8 6
    daniel maris 2
    artefact 17,7
    billy jackson 4,5
    christopher calder 10
    mark smylie 40

    Since all the wisest have already made their prediction, I deleted the higher and the lower, made the average and I say COP is absolutely 12,41. No story.

    As usual, most dangerous contender for me is Bachcole, but he already said he doesn’t want the prize anyway

    • Billy Jackson

      i choose 4.5 for the following reason. the last test they claimed at least a COP of 10 for the 100+ hour test. i think that over a 6 month period that the COP would go down due to wear on the material making it less and less effective without renewal.

    • Guru

      My guess is CoP = 16

    • Broncobet

      I’ll bet there won’t be an anouncement for a week.

  • jousterusa

    I don’t think many of us can “concretely” imagine how much a COP of 36 would impact the world around us. It would utterly transform the worlds of electricity, manufacturing (where power is a huge expense), electronics, aviation, automobiles – I mean, it’s just endless. But I think the author is building up false hopes to create a wave of disappointment when the real figure – 6 or something – finally is revealed. For the oil boys, that would be a useful strategy. Even though it’s far better than anytrhing they can do, it’s still not those glorious promontories the author suggests and they could publicize the “huge letdown” of people who hoped for more. I think Frank was very wise to warn us of that.

    • Omega Z

      Well, According to Rossi’s numbers-
      250Wh in & 10Kwh out according to the stated component ratings.
      But I guess I should state that we have zero Test Data to back this up. So it’s just theoretical according to the numbers. Thus just speculating.

  • jousterusa

    I don’t think many of us can “concretely” imagine how much a COP of 36 would impact the world around us. It would utterly transform the worlds of electricity, manufacturing (where power is a huge expense), electronics, aviation, automobiles – I mean, it’s just endless. But I think the author is building up false hopes to create a wave of disappointment when the real figure – 6 or something – finally is revealed. For the oil boys, that would be a useful strategy. Even though it’s far better than anything they can do, it’s still not those glorious promontories the author suggests and they could publicize the “huge letdown” of people who hoped for more. I think Frank was very wise to warn us of that.

    • bachcole

      Perhaps, but I am still stuck on 13.5. What people want and what people expect has nothing to do with my GUESS. I am GUESSING 13.5 because of a feeling of how much progress can be made in a year with something that it utterly new.

    • Omega Z

      Well, According to Rossi’s numbers-
      250Wh in & 10Kwh out according to the stated component ratings.
      But I guess I should state that we have zero Test Data to back this up. So it’s just theoretical according to the numbers. Thus just speculating.

  • bfast

    COP-shmeopee. Is it replicable!? Can engineers other than Rossi go into their lab, mix a little of this and a little of that and make one? Can this thing be be mass-manufactured, with each product outputting the same energy level as the last? Lastly, most importantly, when is the assembly line going to be turned on to make the things? These are the great questions!

    • deleo77

      I think it will definitely be a black box test. There is no way that IH will divulge their trade secrets in this process. Surely this will give fuel to the skeptics, who will say that if it can’t be replicated it doesn’t matter. But this is different than Pons and Fleischmann and the attempts that followed to replicate at Cal Tech and MIT. IH is a private company that is looking to eventually sell or license their technology. It will interesting to see if the mainstream media and scientific establishment accept the results even without replication. My guess is that a few will this time, and it will be a much bigger deal than the last test results. Will 60 Minutes come calling? Perhaps.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Rossi and friends have been there, and done that.
        Rossi transferred the technology to Industrial Heat as an instruction set and they took over manufacturing from there, Industrial Heat has replicated.

        • Omega Z

          The Skeps do not except this.
          The believe Rossi hoodwinked them.

          • bachcole

            Please, “skeptopaths”, thank you, “skeptopaths”. I happen to be a skeptic. I assume that you are also. I don’t believe impossible inventors unless they have earned my trust, which Rossi has. Mills has not.

          • Omega Z

            Sorry Roger.

            Skeptopaths is what I meant. I just abbreviated it..
            I also believe Rossi has the goods.
            However, a small part of me leaves open the possibility that it could be problematic to deploy. But I’d guess, it could be overcome in time.

    • jousterusa

      You asked, “Can engineers other than Rossi go into their lab, mix a little of this and a little of that and make one? ” Not without access to the patent, which – not being granted -is inaccessible. Except for licensing, of course.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    I think it will have a higher COP than hot fusion.

    A happy April 4th to everyone.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeHCP5Pwie8

  • Alan DeAngelis

    I think it will have a higher COP than hot fusion.

    A happy April 4th to everyone.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CeHCP5Pwie8

  • rj

    Why the focus on COP?
    The power output per dollar is the key issue.
    And for devices that can be built in quantity.
    This is the point that Rossi makes himself many times
    (not in those words of course)
    I have just read first few chapters of Mats book.
    The thermoelectric saga is interesting.
    Nobody doubted that Rossi himelf could make a useful thermoelectric device.
    Bur they couldnt be made in volume.
    Let us hope that the e-cat isnt a repeat.

    • Ophelia Rump

      rj To answer your question “Why the focus on COP?”

      Converting heat to electricity is not very efficient.

      With a COP of about ten, the device can produce more dollars out than dollars you feed in. Picture this, at about 20 percent efficiency in converting the heat to electricity, you feed one hundred dollars in and get two hundred dollars of electricity out.
      (And contribute $800 worth of heat to global warming. Hint: Someone is already doing it for you.)

      You put one in your basement at a cost of eight thousand dollars, for six months you feed in a total of two thousand dollars and the electric company sends you a check for ten thousand dollars, every six months for the next five years you double the number of these generation systems you have in your basement.
      1,2,4,8,16,32,64,128,256,512

      Questions:
      1, After five years, how big is the check the electric utility sends you every six months?
      2, How big was your investment?

      (There are some real world limits that come in, like how much electricity can you put in the wire before your house burns down.)

      (Answers 1: $5,120,000 every six months. 2: $10,000 invested) All dollar values used were for illustration only.

      Without this concept, you could completely fail to understand the revolution which is about to occur. Now picture everyone doing that, and play what’s wrong with this picture.

      • Billy Jackson

        there are already several states voting that the electric company doesnt have to pay you for what you contribute to the grid.. and there was something about solar panels in california being taxed or paying a fee to the grid for use?

        • Omega Z

          Yes, If everyone followed suit, there would be no customer to feed the energy to. No market for your product, They wont purchase it.
          Utility company comes out. Cut Wire. Sell copper for scrap.

      • Hi Ophelia, “Picture this, at about 20 percent efficiency” did you mean 200%? A COP of 10 would be 1000%.

        • artefact

          Ophelia means 20 percent heat to electricity conversion

  • Ophelia Rump

    I would not go past 12 on guessing the COP, at this stage there is no motivation to push the COP to extremes. COP can be thought of as proportionate to reaction control. I think that by now the control is marketable and well above the COP 6 which Rossi was getting at lower temperatures and stability.

    Once the process is understood at an atomic level, I expect to see manufactured materials make a major contribution increasing the COP.

    Consider the volume of insight gained in the last decade regarding hydrogen production.
    I expect that no less time and effort will go into perfecting this technology.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    I want a result so undeniably good, that the world can no longer deny Rossi or CF.

    I want media attention the world has never seen before.

    • Frank Acland

      I would really like to see the same, ZZZ, but I’m not sure that you can count on the media to cover CF or the E-Cat fairly, and give it the attention that most of us here believe it deserves.

      I really hope I’m wrong this time — because I believe for the majority of the public, if their favorite big media outlet doesn’t mention it, it didn’t happen.

      • Billy Jackson

        it really just comes down to one thing.. does it work. and does it provide at least 50% more energy out than in? if so.. it will sell.. it may take a few years to catch on if its not reported by the media.. but with sites such as this and simple word of mouth.. a successful device will be nearly impossible to keep quiet at this stage.

        i believe that the e-cat represents another Pandora’s box not just for us but for the world at large its one of those things that once discovered, you cant “undiscover” it.

        on top of that. despite regulations and control in the USA.. they wont have a choice but to adopt this technology or be left behind. to many uses for 50% more electricity at the same cost as current. to many uses for it to be applied.. big bucks to be made.

        Vertical Farming (i think will be huge)
        Desalinization (fresh water)
        Advanced Propulsion for all types of craft from car to space.
        Sustainable Environments with a lower foot print.
        with all electric cars, planes, ships and industrial factories.. think of how much pollution potentially is about to be null and voided.

        • roseland67

          Billy Jackson
          I believe Deslaination should be the first use,
          it could be implemented globally by small
          seaside villages to large urban locations.
          This would be a simple central site
          only producing heat to vaporize water,
          similar to utility generation, but no electricity,
          few personnel needed, actual verifiable input/output ratios by Water/Waste/Water professionals.
          This data could be shared by the WWW industry
          and best practices improved upon.
          Insane improvement in health/lifestyle/food production
          for the globe.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        I share your worries. Deeply…

        I also believe the cat is out of the bag in that the phenomenon cannot be denied anymore. However MSM can still be manipulated and told not to write about it or just write negatively about it. It can be delayed, but not denied anymore.

  • Christopher Calder

    What do you think this is the current situation?

    1) The test is complete?
    2) The report has been submitted to a major journal for publication?
    3) Rossi gets his copy of the report at completion of the test or only after the paper is accepted for publication?

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Since this is the guessing thread, my guesses are:

      1) Yes; Rossi hinted that the test would be finished end of march
      2) No; I think the report is still being written and internally reviewed. The paper will probably be published at archivx again. Big science
      magazines will only touch CF when it cannot be denied any longer.
      3) He gets a copy after completion and at least 3 days before the paper is published so as to prepare a defense should the report not be favorable

      Hope I’m wrong about 2 though…

      • Omega Z

        Physical Test is done.
        Pre-Draft report at this time.
        1 or 2 months for proofing/review by all parties involved with the test.
        The paper will be published at archivx again.

  • What do you think this is the current situation?

    1) The test is complete?
    2) The report has been submitted to a major journal for publication?
    3) Rossi gets his copy of the report at completion of the test or only after the paper is accepted for publication?

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Since this is the guessing thread, my guesses are:

      1) Yes; Rossi hinted that the test would be finished end of march
      2) No; I think the report is still being written and internally reviewed. The paper will probably be published at archivx again. Big science
      magazines will only touch CF when it cannot be denied any longer.
      3) He gets a copy after completion and at least 3 days before the paper is published so as to prepare a defense should the report not be favorable

      Hope I’m wrong about 2 though…

      • Omega Z

        Physical Test is done.
        Pre-Draft report at this time.
        1 or 2 months for proofing/review by all parties involved with the test.
        The paper will be published at archivx again.

      • Francisnocab

        A) Measurements: over

        B) Report: still being written

  • roseland67

    I predict:
    Results will be the same as the last test.
    Much more energy out than energy in but the test will not be conclusive
    because no one outside the Rossi coven will be able to confirm the data.
    Some additional mis-directions will be introduced to try to placate the masses,
    but only 1 thing will do that.
    Yawn, on to the next “test”.

    • Perhaps you could try to explain why an independent group working separately from Rossi could be considered to be part of some imaginary (and now very large) group of conspirators – which is what I presume you mean by ‘Rossi coven’?

      The time for that sort of nonsense has long gone. The shills of this world will need to come up with something a bit more effective than feigned ennui when the test results are published – but I suppose you’ve gotta go with what you have, no matter how weak it is.

      • GreenWin

        I’m pretty sure the next wave of pathoskep FUD will center on fusion frying. To wit, if billions have home/industry “fusion” generators, it’ll make AGW look like a clam bake. Waste heat will exceed dastardly CO2 in fomenting thermal disaster! Hurricanes, typhoons, tidal waves, drought, heat rash, sterility, and lower SAT scores are imminent! Fusion Apocalypse – it’s not gonna be cool.

        • peter shwartz

          Ah, well be able to fix that global warning thing – just turn up the air-conditioners 🙂

        • Omega Z

          GW,
          You missed It will make you Fat, Raise your Cholesterol levels & screw with your blood sugar. It’s a serious health menace. 🙂
          Probably more issues to follow.

      • roseland67

        Fortyniner,
        1. I can’t explain why
        2. Why is time long gone?
        3. I Predict is what I wrote, how did you interpret it?
        4. My prediction is no less weak than believeing what you’re told to believe

    • Ophelia Rump

      Hah, you call that a prediction, thats nothing, I predicted your post!

  • Ophelia Rump

    Thermal mass is the ultimate stabilizer for temperature.
    You need to match the thermal mass and regulate the heat exchange.
    This is low tech. Any other instability would have been caused by the reaction consisting of intermittent bursts of energy and the size of the reaction site not being large enough to ensure statistically homogeneous energy bursts. This was probably overcome when they turned up the power for the Hot-Cat.

    Here is a guess, they will only produce one model of core, it will be the Hot-Cat.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I truly hope you are incorrect. I hope that we have learned something by now.

    Because if you believe in Global Warming, you ain’t seen nothing yet, until you see an entire planet go hog wild on a virtually limitless supply of virtually no cost power.

    Honestly if I believed you were right, I would be screaming for someone to stop Rossi before it is too late.

    • GreenWin

      Ophelia, you make several pejorative assumptions by such speculation. First, inexpensive, clean, abundant electricity raises global standards of living – empowering the 2.5 billion humans who have no access to electricity now. Energy is key to healthcare, education, nutrition, and lower birthrates. When standards of living rise, birthrates descend. We have no social studies (I’m aware of) that indicate a higher standard of living results in “hog wild” behavior. However, this may be a reason for elites PTB to fight so hard against abundance and energy in particular.

      For some, the idea of an empowered proletariat is frightening and dismissive of a convenient hierarchy. The introduction of abundance will distribute power more equitably and require several generations. It is highly doubtful humanity will par boil the planet – any more than AGW has raised global temperatures.

    • bachcole

      Do the math. If everyone of 12 billion people have a 10 kW e-cat, and . . . . . Do the math. I’ve already done the math, and I don’t want to do it again. The addition of heat via 10,000,000,000 10kW e-cats is insignificant. I’ll take CO2 emissions as a threat over that, and I don’t take CO2 emissions.

    • Daniel Maris

      (a) It’s not going to be “virtually no cost” power. If it comes in better than 2 cents per KwH I’ll be surprised.

      (b) It will tend to reduce population growth.

      (c) Cheaper energy will allow us to pursue more complex recycling and reuse technologies, because they tend to be energy intensive.

      (d) If LENR energy is a real phenomenon then LENR transmutation is likely to be not far behind. We might see an end to the environmental damage caused by mining.

      • Omega Z

        You were OK until (D).
        Transmutating could Never replace mining other then maybe some exotic materials for small scale operations.
        No Offense, but people tend to grossly under estimate the things we use. Only when directly confronted to we go wait what.

        I’ve witnessed product production where my 1st thought was OMG, What are you going to do with all this. Of which they respond. What, We can’t keep up with the demand. Oh- And by the way, this is just 1 operation. There’s a 100 other plants producing the same thing.

        Or watch a 100 coal cars roll thru to a power plant. That will last a while. Yep. Another 100 tomorrow, & the next day &….

        • Daniel Maris

          Omega Z – Not sure what points you are making here.

          If LENR transmutation is for real, then I see no reason why it might not compete positively with mining which is a highly costly activity.

          LENR of itself should eliminate the need for mining for coal, gas, and other energy sources.

          I don’t think I do underestimate the things we use at all. That’s the sort of thing I look at all the time.

          • Omega Z

            The transmutation are of such small quantity that except possibly for specialty exotic materials, it would likely never be economical.

            The Hot cat uses approximately 1 gram of nickle cooked for over 4K hours in 6 months to produce a 1/10 of a gram of mutated material.

    • Omega Z

      OR
      I have no doubt that this technology will bring down all energy costs & the cost of all products that require energy to produce.
      But I think most are going to be disappointed when they find out the cost of having an off grid system in their homes.

      They will find they have traded High Energy bills for High Payments for their system. At least for the foreseeable future.
      The additional components to make this happen are not cheap. Some will cost substantially more then what it would replace.

      There’s just so many things we take for granted. In a harsh winter It would require 2 hot cats to heat my home.(Many would need more) 1 Hot cat would barely supply on demand low volume hot water for a shower. Therefore an Insulated holding tank would be required. Guess that would be the same place the present water heater sits.

      If one were gone at work all day, It wouldn’t be that big a problem, but once you get home & start using things, Then you have a problem. A 10Kw Hot cat isn’t going to cut it.

  • George Miley said he was getting 12 cop with the home unit he is working on (which still needs more work) I’ve been waiting for Ruby to put up his lecture on CF Now to draw attention to it. She has audio but the video is in process. It was one of the most fascinating of the lectures (to me) at the MIT Colloquium. It is good to know there are other CF devices in the horse race. I was also glad the result of Rossi’s Ecat is coming out after the Colloquium. Alot of the folks there seemed ready to retire. May have been their last big CF bash.

    • Omega Z

      As McKubre & a few others have pointed out.
      Only those Old enough to have nothing to lose or that can be taken from them can risk involvement in this technology. It’s a near end of career indeavor.
      I’m sure if need be, others will follow when they reach this stage.

  • Christopher Calder

    So anyone who tests the Hot-Cat and says it works automatically becomes part of the Rossi coven?

  • So anyone who tests the Hot-Cat and says it works automatically becomes part of the Rossi coven?

  • Obvious

    Since I put a range on it originally, I’ll go with 6.8 as my final guess.

    • bachcole

      I think that we should bet on it, not that I actually have any money. But the rest of you bet on it and I’ll watch.

  • LukeDC

    I think we will be looking at a coefficient of performance approaching 8. This is roughly what I need to make it a cost permissive component in my datacentre thermal transfer designs. Depending on the final product it could completely revolutionise DC space, provide power and cooling…

  • LukeDC

    I think we will be looking at a coefficient of performance approaching 8. This is roughly what I need to make it a cost permissive component in my datacentre thermal transfer designs. Depending on the final product it could completely revolutionise DC space, provide power and cooling…

  • blanco69

    Of course the test results will be positive. Can you really imagine the alternative. Rossi spends 10 years developing a potentially wonderous invention but even after this time he cannot determine if it works or not. So he decides to submit the invention for detailed, long term, independent testing. I think not. This maybe yes, maybe no, stuff is Rossi vigorously trying to distance himself from the testers. You’ve got to ask yourself why he feels the need to do this. It’s either an attempt to add weight to a patent application or, it’s another investment carrot t lure would be investors. What it’s not is an attempt to see if the ecat works or not. Rossi already knows that – it either does or it doesn’t.

    • Argon

      Exactly my thoughts also. If Rossi would be con, heck long period to try to fool knvestors. It is clear that nobody gives him money, before independent tests completed. So i think it is matter of time when report gets published and big buzz starts.
      What i see still open, is Rossis technology suitability to more random use like e-cars aeroplanes etc. where other research branch like Brilliouin, Blacklight Power or even HHO could take over e-cat. I’m fine with that as long as they help to save the earth.
      It has been long journey, which I’ve followed with great interest, both Flesichman&Pons annoncement, and now Rossi sice mid-January 2011. I’m exited again, but can wait few more weeks, since this report either makes or breaks it for me. Just hoping COP>10 . That would really change everything for good.

    • Fortyniner

      I think Rossi’s apparent uncertainty may depend on the meaning he places on the terms ‘positive’ and ‘negative’ in the context of the purpose of the tests. If the question to be answered by the tests is, ‘Is there anomalous heat?’ I have no doubt at all that the outcome will be ‘positive’. However if the question is, ‘Is there sufficient heat gain and longevity of output to replace fossil or nuclear energy sources?’ the outcome might be less certain, especially since the devices on test will be fairly early ‘cat/mouse’ prototypes.

      As for why he (or more probably IH) is doing this, it could be in order to attract investment from one or more ‘mega players’, or possibly for the more subtle reason that IH have decided to make their introduction of CF in many small steps, rather than all in one (i.e., by announcing that a generator plant of theirs driven by a CF reactor has been successfully running for X months and that it is now open for inspection by qualified people). At some point the game may get rough, but by letting the idea of unlimited cheap energy slip into public awareness drip by drip, they might hope to avoid triggering Schopenhauer’s ‘second stage’.

      • Omega Z

        Peter

        We need to Note one of Rossi’s recent responses on JONP.
        They have Very stable High Temps. 11??`C.
        They have improved the Power Density.
        So Much SO, That they are studying it’s use for a Jet Engine (as in Aircraft).
        Question? Who would put time & effort into something like this if these Tests were such an Iffy Proposition?
        Not You. Not I, And I doubt Rossi & IH.

        Just to Add, I think from Rossi’s earlier posts, The physical tests are done & possibly a rough draft of the report. Regardless of Rossi’s profuse statements otherwise. I think he dost protest to much.

        I think the physical tests were probably done or about done when he recently reported that they told him they had achieved over a Million Data (Points) That’s when they probably started wrapping things up & pulling hard drives.

        Final Report probably needs proofed by all involved. 1 maybe 2 months.

    • bachcole

      But blanco69, we all already know that it works. Is it commercializable is the question. Can IH make money off of it? Can they make a lot of money off of it? If it has a COP of 69 and it turns on and off immediately and is safe and stable, they can make TONS of money off of it. If it has a COP of 6.9 and is unstable, then not so much. (:->)

  • blanco69

    Of course the test results will be positive. Can you really imagine the alternative. Rossi spends 10 years developing a potentially wonderous invention but even after this time he cannot determine if it works or not. So he decides to submit the invention for detailed, long term, independent testing. I think not. This maybe yes, maybe no, stuff is Rossi vigorously trying to distance himself from the testers. You’ve got to ask yourself why he feels the need to do this. It’s either an attempt to add weight to a patent application or, it’s another investment carrot t lure would be investors. What it’s not is an attempt to see if the ecat works or not. Rossi already knows that – it either does or it doesn’t.

    • Argon

      Exactly my thoughts also. If Rossi would be con, heck long period to try to fool knvestors. It is clear that nobody gives him money, before independent tests completed. So i think it is matter of time when report gets published and big buzz starts.
      What i see still open, is Rossis technology suitability to more random use like e-cars aeroplanes etc. where other research branch like Brilliouin, Blacklight Power or even HHO could take over e-cat. I’m fine with that as long as they help to save the earth.
      It has been long journey, which I’ve followed with great interest, both Flesichman&Pons annoncement, and now Rossi sice mid-January 2011. I’m exited again, but can wait few more weeks, since this report either makes or breaks it for me. Just hoping COP>10 . That would really change everything for good.

    • I think Rossi’s apparent uncertainty may depend on the meaning he places on the terms ‘positive’ and ‘negative’ in the context of the purpose of the tests. If the question to be answered by the tests is, ‘Is there anomalous heat?’ I have no doubt at all that the outcome will be a strong ‘positive’. However if the question is, ‘Is there sufficient heat gain and longevity of output to allow replacement of fossil or nuclear energy sources?’ the outcome might be less certain, especially since the devices on test were probably fairly early ‘cat/mouse’ prototypes.

      As for why he (or more probably IH) is doing this, it could be in order to attract investment from one or more ‘mega players’ (and so gain both money and protection), or possibly for the more subtle reason that IH have decided to make their introduction of CF in many small steps, rather than all in one (i.e., by announcing that a generator plant of theirs driven by a CF reactor has been successfully running for X months and that it is now open for inspection by qualified people). At some point the game may get rough, but by letting the idea of unlimited cheap energy seep into public awareness drip by drip, they might hope to avoid triggering Schopenhauer’s ‘second stage’ all at once.

      • Omega Z

        Peter

        We need to Note one of Rossi’s recent responses on JONP.
        They have Very stable High Temps. 11??`C.
        They have improved the Power Density.
        So Much SO, That they are studying it’s use for a Jet Engine (as in Aircraft).
        Question? Who would put time & effort into something like this if these Tests were such an Iffy Proposition?
        Not You. Not I, And I doubt Rossi & IH.

        Just to Add, I think from Rossi’s earlier posts, The physical tests are done & possibly a rough draft of the report. Regardless of Rossi’s profuse statements otherwise. I think he dost protest to much.

        I think the physical tests were probably done or about done when he recently reported that they told him they had achieved over a Million Data (Points) That’s when they probably started wrapping things up & pulling hard drives.

        Final Report probably needs proofed by all involved. 1 maybe 2 months.

    • bachcole

      But blanco69, we all already know that it works. Is it commercializable is the question. Can IH make money off of it? Can they make a lot of money off of it? If it has a COP of 69 and it turns on and off immediately and is safe and stable, they can make TONS of money off of it. If it has a COP of 6.9 and is unstable, then not so much. (:->)

  • dickyaesta

    About two weeks ago, I just brushed up on my icon, see to the left. Now it seems another prevision of the dream I had about one and a half year ago of Rossi carrying an ecat burning in the center. (Frank I lost the thread, I would like to know the exact date of my dream to place it on my time-line of events surrounding ECAT)

    Rossi was depicted, in my dream, as an upper-highpriest in a beautiful very richly decorated hall. Carying his ecat, don’t know how he could carry his ecat in his bare hands, but then again it was a dream and that part didn’t seem significant.

    He walked in front of a group of highpriests and he walked towards the emperor who sat on a splendid throne at the end of this enormous hall, with very beautifully dressed persons aligning the path. Prof. Rossi (the stride was unmistakenly that of Rossi, remember it was a dream mixing facts with fiction(?)) was walking towards the emperor to offer him his ecat.

    The setting was Atlantean a detail which was mentioned specifically to me in the dream and which in my opinion coincedes very well with what we seem to know about Atlantis (abundant energy and very rich). The technology was lost later, although the existence of eternal lamps (ecat technology a good spinoff perhaps!) were still mentioned much later like in the 12th century AD.

    This dream did make me believe in the technology and I am speculating a cop of 30 at least, because an empire, like Atlantis, cannot be built on much less.

    • Antonio Saavedra Narváez

      I can’t even imagine which kind of brand-new inventive laws will our government throw at us to avoid everyone having one of these e-cats in our spanish homes. They took our sun but they won’t take our freedom!

      • dickyaesta

        Being originally from Holland I like all the sun I can get, as of now they haven`t taken that away yet.

        Although for me living in Cataluña, where they are now busy digging a virtual canal to separate us from the rest of Spain and surely later they need all the money they can get to form a new army, customs at all the borders with the rest of Spain, embassies all over the world more luxurious ofcourse than those of the rest of Spain etc. etc. I am afraid, I most likely, have to go the bootleggers way and install an ecat illegally in my garden and paint ice-flakes on my windows to simulate the cold I am suffering in my house.

        Saludos a ti Antonio, I hope though we pull thru 🙂

    • bachcole

      And I thought that I was the only New Age whack-job around here. (:->) I see the hand of God in this, a tsunami of God’s grace sweeping across the world. I do believe that if we don’t get a steady COP of 30 out of this test, we will before I die.

      • dickyaesta

        Well ‘eternal’ lamps from ecat technology should not cost much more than 15 bucks and would at least light up Africa like a Christmas tree. It is all in where you start with this technology and has little to do with New Age!

  • dickyaesta

    About two weeks ago, I just brushed up on my icon, see to the left. Now it seems another prevision of the dream I had about one and a half year ago of Rossi carrying an ecat burning in the center. (Frank I lost the thread, I would like to know the exact date of my dream to place it on my time-line of events surrounding ECAT)

    Rossi was depicted, in my dream, as an upper-highpriest in a beautiful very richly decorated hall. Carying his ecat, don’t know how he could carry his ecat in his bare hands, but then again it was a dream and that part didn’t seem significant.

    He walked in front of a group of highpriests and he walked towards the emperor who sat on a splendid throne at the end of this enormous hall, with very beautifully dressed persons aligning the path. Prof. Rossi (the stride was unmistakenly that of Rossi, remember it was a dream mixing facts with fiction(?)) was walking towards the emperor to offer him his ecat.

    The setting was Atlantean a detail which was mentioned specifically to me in the dream and which in my opinion coincedes very well with what we seem to know about Atlantis (abundant energy and very rich). The technology was lost later, although the existence of aeternal lamps (ecat technology(?) a good spinoff perhaps!) were still mentioned much later like in the 12th century AD.

    This dream did make me believe more so in the technology than before and I am speculating on a cop of 30 at least, because an empire, like Atlantis, could not be built on much less. 😉

    Saludos from Spain it does get a bit better here again, thanks God.

    • Antonio Saavedra Narváez

      I can’t even imagine which kind of brand-new inventive laws will our government throw at us to avoid everyone having one of these e-cats in our spanish homes. They took our sun but they won’t take our freedom!

      • dickyaesta

        Being originally from Holland I like all the sun I can get, as of now they haven`t taken that away yet.

        Although for me living in Cataluña, where they are now busy digging a virtual canal to separate us from the rest of Spain and surely later they need all the money they can get to form a new army, customs at all the borders with the rest of Spain, embassies all over the world more luxurious ofcourse than those of the rest of Spain etc. etc. I am afraid, I most likely, have to go the bootleggers way and install an ecat illegally in my garden and paint snow-flakes on my windows to simulate the cold I am suffering inside my house.

        Saludos a ti Antonio, I hope though, we pull thru 🙂

    • bachcole

      And I thought that I was the only New Age whack-job around here. (:->) I see the hand of God in this, a tsunami of God’s grace sweeping across the world. I do believe that if we don’t get a steady COP of 30 out of this test, we will before I die.

      • dickyaesta

        Well ‘eternal’ lamps from ecat technology should not cost much more than 15 bucks and would at least light up Africa like a Christmas tree. It is all in where you start with this technology and has little to do with New Age! I remember from my youth, gas lamps with a type of white cotton sock, which lit up a barn for my boy scout troop.

        A bit of adaption with some ecat tech and there you have your ‘ECAT ETERNAL LAMP’ it might at least have an enormous impact directly. It is how Korea and Japan became big economically (simplified), selling cheap toy cars, that even had a little flywheel in them, to innocent dutch boys, and then they repeated that with cars etc.

  • artefact

    🙂

  • Andreas Moraitis

    There are two factors that might have influenced Rossi’s decision on which version of the Hot-Cat he should send to the examiners. First, the COP has to be high enough to be attractive for potential customers. I guess that a COP of 6, as in the old 1 MW plants, would not be that attractive if the input is electrical, due to the significantly higher price of electricity in comparison to gas. For that reason, I assume that the reactor has been adjusted in a way that the expected COP exceeded this value. I’m going here with McKubre, who has given a minimum value of 10 for economically practicable applications.
    Secondly, Rossi had to ensure stability and safety over the whole test period. That’s why he has surely not chosen a setting which would allow a COP near the possible maximum. There is also no reason to surpass the required minimum significantly. Therefore, one could expect a COP close to 10, perhaps somewhat above.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      I should add that with this result the electric energy for the input could presumably be generated from the output, so that the COP would be virtually infinitive.

      • Omega Z

        With a single 10Kw E-cat, you could use batteries in “A” loop.
        Larger systems would need an External Power supply.

        Note Info: Should a large power outage occur shutting down large portions of the grid- Generators need power to be fired up to actually Generate Electricity. The Circuts within the generators themselves need to be what they call primed or charged.

        Only a few Power Plants in the U.S. can be started up with standby generators. And Most of them are Hydro. Their called Feeders. From these they send power through the Grid to start up other power plants in stages.

        I have an Ex-Brother in-law who used to work at & help build these big power plants. And According to him, It takes MEGA-Watt’s to fire them up. And according to him, They can build generators that require less energy to activate, but the cost of such systems are apparently Very Expensive.

        • Kwhilborn

          If we expect cars, etc., to run by ecats then we must imagine the ecat of today contorted by billions of dollars of research and understanding. The resulting “ecats” will need to provide on board electrical generation and possible even a step further (in conversion models) to create hydrogen.

          Batteries are not needed, as Rossi claims any heat source works well so a bunsen burner (gas method) could start his reaction.

          Your discussion about COP needing to offset costs of the reactor/apparatus is premature. All they need now is proof of effect despite any costs. This is meant to show CF/LENR exists, not whether it is practical. The First computers were the size of warehouses with less memory than a modern calculator. They were not practical

          • Omega Z

            Regardless, Some batteries will be needed to operate the controls. Even if a gas burner was used.(This would require fill-ups just as Gasoline vehicles do.) Also indications are that some type of RF wave or magnetic field used would require electricity.

            I see Electric cars for the foreseeable future. The LENR technology is a long way from running basic transportation. At least for the present.

          • Kwhilborn

            LENR is a long way from running transportation as long as research budgets stay this low. The $5 Million Kimmel grant is being heralded as huge at the MIT meeting. Transportation would move a lot closer to reality if mainstream acceptance occurred and billions of dollars showed up.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          If a plant would be composed of a large number of small reactors, it should be enough to start the first reactor with input from the grid or a diesel generator. Then one could use its output to start the second reactor, and so on until the whole plant is in operation. That would require some time, but only little energy from external sources.

    • Omega Z

      A High COP value would be necessary to offset the price of the reactor/apparatus also. I suspect a COP>6 has questionable Economics to it. The Price of the H-Cat apparatus could eat Deeply into the energy/fuel savings.

      The price of a Gas control valve & a few of brass orifices equivalent to “3” 10Kwh Hot-cats would be much cheaper.
      All that cost difference needs to be offset by high COP #’s

  • Andreas Moraitis

    There are two factors that might have influenced Rossi’s decision on which version of the Hot-Cat he should send to the examiners. First, the COP has to be high enough to be attractive for potential customers. I guess that a COP of 6, as in the old 1 MW plants, would not be that attractive if the input is electrical, due to the significantly higher price of electricity in comparison to gas. For that reason, I assume that the reactor has been adjusted in a way that the expected COP exceeded this value. I’m going here with McKubre, who has given a minimum value of 10 for economically practicable applications.
    Secondly, Rossi had to ensure stability and safety over the whole test period. That’s why he has surely not chosen a setting which would allow a COP near the possible maximum. There is also no reason to surpass the required minimum significantly. Therefore, one could expect a COP close to 10, perhaps somewhat above.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      I should add that with this result the electric energy for the input could presumably be generated from the output, so that the COP would be virtually infinitive.

      • Omega Z

        With a single 10Kw E-cat, you could use batteries in “A” loop.
        Larger systems would need an External Power supply.

        Note Info: Should a large power outage occur shutting down large portions of the grid- Generators need power to be fired up to actually Generate Electricity. The Circuts within the generators themselves need to be what they call primed or charged.

        Only a few Power Plants in the U.S. can be started up with standby generators. And Most of them are Hydro. Their called Feeders. From these they send power through the Grid to start up other power plants in stages.

        I have an Ex-Brother in-law who used to work at & help build these big power plants. And According to him, It takes MEGA-Watt’s to fire them up. And according to him, They can build generators that require less energy to activate, but the cost of such systems are apparently Very Expensive.

        • Kwhilborn

          If we expect cars, etc., to run by ecats then we must imagine the ecat of today contorted by billions of dollars of research and understanding. The resulting “ecats” will need to provide on board electrical generation and possible even a step further (in conversion models) to create hydrogen.

          Batteries are not needed, as Rossi claims any heat source works well so a bunsen burner (gas method) could start his reaction.

          Your discussion about COP needing to offset costs of the reactor/apparatus is premature. All they need now is proof of effect despite any costs. This is meant to show CF/LENR exists, not whether it is practical. The First computers were the size of warehouses with less memory than a modern calculator. They were not practical

          • Omega Z

            Regardless, Some batteries will be needed to operate the controls. Even if a gas burner was used.(This would require fill-ups just as Gasoline vehicles do.) Also indications are that some type of RF wave or magnetic field used would require electricity.

            I see Electric cars for the foreseeable future. The LENR technology is a long way from running basic transportation. At least for the present.

          • Kwhilborn

            LENR is a long way from running transportation as long as research budgets stay this low. The $5 Million Kimmel grant is being heralded as huge at the MIT meeting. Transportation would move a lot closer to reality if mainstream acceptance occurred and billions of dollars showed up.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          If a plant would be composed of a large number of small reactors, it should be enough to start the first reactor with input from the grid or a diesel generator. Then one could use its output to start the second reactor, and so on until the whole plant is in operation. That would require some time, but only little energy from external sources.

    • Omega Z

      A High COP value would be necessary to offset the price of the reactor/apparatus also. I suspect a COP>6 has questionable Economics to it. The Price of the H-Cat apparatus could eat Deeply into the energy/fuel savings.

      The price of a Gas control valve & a few of brass orifices equivalent to “3” 10Kwh Hot-cats would be much cheaper.
      All that cost difference needs to be offset by high COP #’s

  • Fortyniner

    Perhaps you could explain why an independent group working separately from Rossi could be considered to be part of some imaginary group of conspirators – which is what I presume you mean by ‘Rossi coven’?

    I think the shills of this world may need to come up with something a bit more effective than feigned boredom when the test results are published – but maybe before then it’s still worth a try?

    • GreenWin

      I’m pretty sure the next wave of pathoskep FUD will center on fusion frying. To wit, if billions have home/industry “fusion” generators, it’ll make AGW look like a clam bake. Waste heat will exceed dastardly CO2 in fomenting thermal disaster! Hurricanes, typhoons, tidal waves, drought, heat rash, sterility, and lower SAT scores are imminent! Fusion Apocalypse – it’s not gonna be cool.

      • peter shwartz

        Ah, well be able to fix that global warning thing – just turn up the air-conditioners 🙂

      • Omega Z

        GW,
        You missed It will make you Fat, Raise your Cholesterol levels & screw with your blood sugar. It’s a serious health menace. 🙂
        Probably more issues to follow.

  • neanderthal

    Looks like I am starting to believe this is actually real. I thought this was a hoax. It seems we need a new area of physics . So does all doctorates in nuclear physics are only need reassessing or would we need to take an extra module.i.e. quantum tunneling and the couloumb effect. I could make a model with this probability would collapse but need to introduce another tensor matrix factor with a different intrinsic force carrier which has a commutating factor that is assymetrical.

    • MMK

      From Matt’s blog on quantum tunnelling

      “maryyoghurts permalink

      Hi Matt
      Nice book, I love it
      I’m a physicist and I believe the Rossi effect is real and it has something to do with quantum tunnelling. Rossi has some how increased the internal system entropy and degree of freedom therefore making the effect more reliable and also amplified .”

      “maryyoghurts permalink

      I think, during the Rossi effect, the hydrogen protons come very close to the Ni lattice protons but not close enough to overcome the couloum barrier such the way hot fusion reaction would work. Instead they get really close and sort of grindding each others to produce gamma rays and heat in the confined spaces within the lattice. QT allows this- like two cars travel in opposite Direction and scrape one and another, the result is not one lump of fused metal but two cars with bits and pieces falling off everywhere, those are heat and gamma rays. The particles will lose momentum after The grindding and so external heating is required to speed them up again. If one can increase the entropy and degree of freedom of the process that will increase the effect.”

      • Andreas Moraitis

        Hot fusion in the sun requires quantum tunneling as well. Therefore, the above-mentioned hypothesis is not that new.

        • MMK

          Rossi once said his reactor does not require new physics. Quantum tunnelling can get the protons through the coulomb barrier at lower energy level. Perhaps Rossi’s secret is to providing a greater number those tunnelling then that the basis of operation of his Ecats.
          How would one produce more tunnelling at <1000C?

          • bachcole

            Longer proximity would help quantum tunneling, wouldn’t it. And once one proton kissed another proton, greater heat/energy would help other proton pairs make-out.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            By coordinating the wave functions of the involved particles, perhaps?

      • There is also the possibility that EM-induced magnetostrictive effects might cause movements in the Ni lattice that could ‘crush’ H nuclei closer to Ni Nuclei wherever there are faults/discontinuities within the lattice, or perhaps within the lattice itself. This could be the purpose of the ‘frequencies generator’ Rossi mentioned.

    • MMK

      I’m quite intrigued by this quantum tunnelling idea for Rossi reactor basic operation.

    • Omega Z

      Well according to Rossi, It doesn’t break any laws but rather a better/deeper understanding of those existing.
      Of course, many of us here are becoming aware that Things can work differently at the micro/nano level. Actually, I had pretty much concluded this decades ago when I was still a teenager.

    • Chris, Italy

      The tunnel effect itself is not being overlooked by those who disbelieve it. It’s just that, by the Gamow computation, they don’t believe there could remotely be a significant rate. Even Focardi found the matter puzzling but, of course, just concluded that better understanding is called for.

      My take is that the Gamow computation maybe doesn’t apply as these things aren’t collisions.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Hot fusion in the sun requires quantum tunneling as well. Therefore, the above-mentioned hypothesis is not that new.

    • MMK

      Rossi once said his reactor does not require new physics. Quantum tunnelling can get the protons through the coulomb barrier at lower energy level. Perhaps Rossi’s secret is to providing a greater number those tunnelling then that the basis of operation of his Ecats.
      How would one produce more tunnelling at <1000C?

      • Andreas Moraitis

        By coordinating the wave functions of the involved particles, perhaps?

  • Omega Z

    This was something I think I tagged onto one of 49er’s posts. If I recall, I think I stated I was just Speculating. To explain where this came from- Goes quite a ways back when we were discussing COP on a Regular bases.
    When Rossi 1st brought up his mouse/cat configuration. And indicated that the mouse was active 1/3 of the time & the Cat was in self-sustain 2/3rd’s of the time. Later 25/75

    Many people posted here & on JONP that this was a COP-3 & some posted COP-10 even up to COP-20. For some Odd Reason, Rossi kind of let speculation go wild. Maybe he just left it confuse any competitors watching from the shadows,

    Regardless, Many didn’t take into account that the Hot-cat is rated at 10Kwh. & the Mouse 1Kwh, or 250watts spread over an hour based on Rossi’s stated being active 25% of the time.
    Based on a 1 hour snap shot of full power would indicate a possible COP=40. However with a 3-4 hour start up, I posted COP-35. Because you will never make up all the loss in that start up period. It’s like compound interest in reverse. Ever diminishing returns.

    Speculating can be fun. But when you get to a high enough COP, It gets very tricky in actual operation. This may be the Reason Rossi is uncommitted to giving COP numbers now.
    A small change in watts in or out can have a Major impact on COP #’s.

  • Omega Z

    Well according to Rossi, It doesn’t break any laws but rather a better/deeper understanding of those existing.
    Of course, many of us here are becoming aware that Things can work differently at the micro/nano level. Actually, I had pretty much concluded this decades ago when I was still a teenager.

  • Ophelia Rump

    rj To answer your question “Why the focus on COP?”

    Converting heat to electricity is not very efficient.

    With a COP of about ten, the device can produce more dollars out than dollars you feed in. Picture this, at about 20 percent efficiency in converting the heat to electricity, you feed one hundred dollars in and get two hundred dollars of electricity out.

    You put one in your basement at a cost of ten thousand dollars, for six months you feed in a total of two thousand dollars and the electric company sends you a check for ten thousand dollars, every six months for the next five years you double the number of these generation systems you have in your basement.

    Questions:
    After five years, how big is the check the electric utility sends you every six months?
    How big was your investment?

    (There are some real world limits that come in, like how much electricity can you put in the wire before your house burns down.)

    • Billy Jackson

      there are already several states voting that the electric company doesnt have to pay you for what you contribute to the grid.. and there was something about solar panels in california being taxed or paying a fee to the grid for use?

      • Omega Z

        Yes, If everyone followed suit, there would be no customer to feed the energy to. No market for your product, They wont purchase it.
        Utility company comes out. Cut Wire. Sell copper for scrap.

  • Neanderthal

    quantum tunnelling is indeed the mechananism however going through the equations there is something that i can not seem to correct. i will have to try and use some pertubation in my theory. I am quite rigorous is my techniques. however i there is one person i have to admit is better than me. and confident will solve it. Richard Wiles. where are you!

    • MMK

      Add this into your model, one tunnelling occurrence will setup avalanche of tunnelling of neighbouring protons due to REFLECTIONS in the tight spaces of the lattice. seem I got it. It must be the reflections that cascade the reactions – at least on my computer model here.

  • Neanderthal

    quantum tunnelling is indeed the mechananism however going through the equations there is something that i can not seem to correct. i will have to try and use some pertubation in my theory. I am quite rigorous is my techniques. however i there is one person i have to admit is better than me. and confident will solve it. Richard Wiles. where are you!

    • MMK

      Add this into your model, one tunnelling occurrence will setup avalanche of tunnelling of neighbouring protons due to REFLECTIONS in the tight spaces of the lattice. seem I got it. It must be the reflections that cascade the reactions – at least on my computer model here.

  • Neanderthal

    Sorry Andrew Wiles i meant

  • Neanderthal

    Sorry Andrew Wiles i meant

    • MMK

      Get Peter Hagelstein, I would

  • Neanderthal

    Edward Witten would also be a good candidate

  • Omega Z

    As McKubre & a few others have pointed out.
    Only those Old enough to have nothing to lose or that can be taken from them can risk involvement in this technology. It’s a near end of career indeavor.
    I’m sure if need be, others will follow when they reach this stage.

  • observer

    Just because the six month test is over does not mean they turned the e-cat off. To my knowledge, no one knows how long the reaction can last in the hot cat.

  • observer

    Just because the six month test is over does not mean they turned the e-cat off. To my knowledge, no one knows how long the reaction can last in the hot cat.

    • observer

      If they plan to publish in a peer reviewed publication, they should keep the e-cat running during peer review, then update the total run time in the last draft.

      • Omega Z

        They could Note the extended longevity of it in the final report.
        It would need to be noted that the Data itself is of the Base test.
        If careless in how they report it, it could call into question of the validity of the entire test.

  • Omega Z

    They will insulate for comfort.
    Believe me. It makes a big difference & I’m not talking about the cost of heating.
    Without Insulation, you have hot & cold spots. No equilibrium. You’ll either be to warm or to cool. Kind of like standing by a campfire at night. You cook the side next to the fire while the back side freezes. Your body doesn’t know what to do. Shiver or spin.

  • Omega Z

    Consider this.

    The Mouse only has a COP=1.1
    It’s rated 1Kwh output, but requires approximately 910 watts input. Functions only 25% of the time. 250 watts per hour used.

    The Cat has “No” COP of it’s own. It has No Power Input.
    It’s Rated to output 10Kwh heat.
    However, as long as the Mouse keeps triggering the effect it could be rated infinite or until it exhausts it’s Charge. The Only Power Used is the 250watts hour of the Mouse…

    Thus I use the 25% activation phase of the Mouse-250watt over the entire hour & take into account the 10Kw output.
    That indicates a possible COP=40 less loss to start up.

    The Mouse rating & time interval would seem a solid number to work with.
    The Solid Data we are missing is the actual output of the Hot-Cat Reactor.
    Does it put out 10kwh of heat. More? Less?
    This will determine the Actual COP…

    • guga

      Last thing I know is Rossi wrote the Hot Cat had 1 kW output, not 10 kW. The regular eCat modules were 10 kW. I don’t remember he mentioned 10 kW for the Hot Cat.
      That’s why a COP of around 3 or 4 was calculated. If the Hot Cat output was 10 kW, these calculations would of course have been a lot different.

      • guga

        I looked up the 1 kW thing, Rossi wrote it on May 12th, 2013. And I don’t remember that he ever disagreed later when people mentioned 1 kW Mouse/Cat systems.

        • Omega Z

          The Mouse is 1Kw. The Cat Reactor is rated 10Kw, but has no power input. It is triggered & controlled by the mouse.

          The Test showed a COP of 2.6 to 5.2 or somewhere in that range of the two test runs.
          According to Rossi, the reasons for the lower COP readings were
          1- Very conservative data readings. Verified in the report.
          2. They were run at much lower temps to avoid having another Core melt down as they had in December.

          As to reason 1- Accordingly, The COP readings were actually higher then that stated in the report.

          As to reason 2- If I recall, The tests were ran in the range of 300 to 400`C. At Higher temps say 1000`C will produce a higher COP reading.

          • guga

            No, OmegaZ, according to Rossi the Hot Cat is a 1 kW reactor, not 10 kW. Where do you have the 10 kW number from? 10 kW was for the normal eCat, the HotCat with the mouse was always 1 kW (please see Rossi’s comments on May 12th 2013, I can paste them here if necessary). If you find a different number, please cite it, I would be happy to find out that I’m wrong.

  • Omega Z

    Consider this.

    The Mouse only has a COP=1.1
    It’s rated 1Kwh output, but requires approximately 910 watts input. Functions only 25% of the time. 250 watts per hour used.

    The Cat has “No” COP of it’s own. It has No Power Input.
    It’s Rated to output 10Kwh heat.
    However, as long as the Mouse keeps triggering the effect it could be rated infinite or until it exhausts it’s Charge. The Only Power Used is the 250watts hour of the Mouse…

    Thus I use the 25% activation phase of the Mouse-250watt over the entire hour & take into account the 10Kw output.
    That indicates a possible COP=40 less loss to start up.

    The Mouse rating & time interval would seem a solid number to work with.
    The Solid Data we are missing is the actual output of the Hot-Cat Reactor.
    Does it put out 10kwh of heat. More? Less?
    This will determine the Actual COP…

    • guga

      Last thing I know is Rossi wrote the Hot Cat had 1 kW output, not 10 kW. The regular eCat modules were 10 kW. I don’t remember he mentioned 10 kW for the Hot Cat.
      That’s why a COP of around 3 or 4 was calculated. If the Hot Cat output was 10 kW, these calculations would of course have been a lot different.

      • guga

        I looked up the 1 kW thing, Rossi wrote it on May 12th, 2013. And I don’t remember that he ever disagreed later when people mentioned 1 kW Mouse/Cat systems.

        • Omega Z

          The Mouse is 1Kw. The Cat Reactor is rated 10Kw, but has no power input. It is triggered & controlled by the mouse.

          The Test showed a COP of 2.6 to 5.2 or somewhere in that range of the two test runs.
          According to Rossi, the reasons for the lower COP readings were
          1- Very conservative data readings. Verified in the report.
          2. They were run at much lower temps to avoid having another Core melt down as they had in December.

          As to reason 1- Accordingly, The COP readings were actually higher then that stated in the report.

          As to reason 2- If I recall, The tests were ran in the range of 300 to 400`C. At Higher temps say 1000`C will produce a higher COP reading.

          • guga

            No, OmegaZ, according to Rossi the Hot Cat is a 1 kW reactor, not 10 kW. Where do you have the 10 kW number from? 10 kW was for the normal eCat, the HotCat with the mouse was always 1 kW (please see Rossi’s comments on May 12th 2013, I can paste them here if necessary). If you find a different number, please cite it, I would be happy to find out that I’m wrong.

  • Christopher Calder

    I wish someone would explain to me why the Mouse only has a COP of 1.1. Why not a COP of 6?

    • Omega Z

      Chris

      It is just My Opinion that it’s never in operation long enough to exceed that point.
      It is only used to trigger & control the reactor core.
      Running it longer would likely cause the reactor to run away & self destruct.

  • I wish someone would explain to me why the Mouse only has a COP of 1.1. Why not a COP of 6?

    • Omega Z

      Chris

      It is just My Opinion that it’s never in operation long enough to exceed that point.
      It is only used to trigger & control the reactor core.
      Running it longer would likely cause the reactor to run away & self destruct.

  • Argon
    • Argon

      After second reaqd, maybe not @Thu was response to previous comment , I think. Sorry for confusion (Damn Google translate).

  • Argon
    • Argon

      After second reaqd, maybe not @Thu was response to previous comment , I think. Sorry for confusion (Damn Google translate).

  • Andrew

    I’m not going to speculate on performance but one thing is for certain., as time passes the efficiency will increase as the knowledge base on how it works grows. I’m wondering how far the effect goes how many different combinations of elements will this be effective with. Or we call this LENR+ maybe Rossis device is a very crude way of doing whatever it’s doing.. As is it will change the world , the next couple of decades will be very interesting.

  • Roy O’Neil

    I, like most people here, would like the e-cat have a very high COP. But it seems to me that an e-cat powered by natural gas could have a relatively low COP (eg 2) and still be cost effective because it would heat water more cheaply than coal or natural gas. What’s wrong with my thinking? Please set me straight.

    • ecatworld

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with your thinking. A gas-powered E-Cat could be more cost effective than an electricity powered one in many situations, if natgas is cheap.

    • bachcole

      There is nothing wrong with your thinking. But a higher COP, one that gets past that magic number ‘3’ will make electricity generation cost effective. I would love to have an E-Cat of COP = 2 in my basement heating the house and water. It would save me about $70 per month. And in a big industrial situation, it would be very beneficial.

    • Fortyniner

      The only problem, especially for small scale applications, might be the ‘start up’ time of 30 minutes or so before the e-cat heat kicks in. Many gas-fired applications (such as central heating boilers) need to switch on/off under thermostatic control, so unless that problem has been fixed, ‘gas cats’ would only be suitable for process heating, space heating, base load powergen etc. But as you say, in this kind of situation almost any significant power gain would be useful, so long as the overall costs (capital cost plus consumables and maintenance) made running such a system competitive with gas.

  • Roy O’Neil

    I, like most people here, would like the e-cat have a very high COP. But it seems to me that an e-cat powered by natural gas could have a relatively low COP (eg 2) and still be cost effective because it would heat water more cheaply than coal or natural gas. What’s wrong with my thinking? Please set me straight.

    • Frank Acland

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong with your thinking. A gas-powered E-Cat could be more cost effective than an electricity powered one in many situations, if natgas is cheap.

    • bachcole

      There is nothing wrong with your thinking. But a higher COP, one that gets past that magic number ‘3’ will make electricity generation cost effective. I would love to have an E-Cat of COP = 2 in my basement heating the house and water. It would save me about $70 per month. And in a big industrial situation, it would be very beneficial.

    • The only problem, especially for small scale applications, might be the ‘start up’ time of 30 minutes or so before the e-cat heat kicks in. Many gas-fired applications (such as central heating boilers) need to switch on/off under thermostatic control, so unless that problem has been fixed, ‘gas cats’ would only be suitable for process heating, space heating, base load powergen etc. But as you say, in this kind of situation almost any significant power gain would be useful in the ‘right’ application, so long as the overall costs (capital cost plus consumables and maintenance) made running such a system competitive with gas.

  • Chris I

    The tunnel effect itself is not being overlooked by those who disbelieve it. It’s just that, by the Gamow computation, they don’t believe there could remotely be a significant rate. Even Focardi found the matter puzzling but, of course, just concluded that better understanding is called for.

    My take is that the Gamow computation maybe doesn’t apply as these things aren’t collisions.

  • Sandy

    I will be “happy about the Official Long-Term Independent Report” if it reports a COP of 100 or more because that much power will make it easy for us to colonize the Solar System.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I laughed when I read that! You should get a prize for enthusiasm for saying that.

      Yes, yes it would indeed, but I think you will find any COP over ten will eventually make it possible. Without a serious energy replacement mankind is falling back to earth to stay.
      like a failed seed.

      An early hope of the space program was to farm hydrogen in space to fuel the space program and mankind, then it shifted to the hope that Helium 3 could be harvested on the moon. Maybe LENR will make both possible, then all we need to do is stabilize this planet while we still have one.

    • Ophelia Rump

      You make me wonder about how dense the power output could be with LENR.
      The power to weight ratio is far beyond that of rocket fuel, could it power rockets?
      How could you dump that much heat quickly enough?

      • bachcole

        Perhaps this is very early in the development of LENR+ to say, but I worry about the power to volume density. That little cell might be very powerful, but with all of that plumbing, I can’t see it lifting anything off of the Earth.

      • ‘How could you dump that much heat…’ Only by continuously vapourising a liquid such as water over a very large heat exchange surface area I think.

        Perhaps each core could be embedded in a solid metal lump with a number of holes bored through it, into which water is pumped under pressure and ejected as superheated steam from the opposite end. Without phase change cooling I think the core would just melt.

        Unfortunately, as Roger says, the weight of the reaction mass (water) plus heat exchangers and pumps would probably make such a system too heavy to be of any practical use, except perhaps as a replacement for gas turbines in fixed generators.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      I’d say that would be possible, even very likely but not for the immediate future. Once we understand the theory it might be easy to reach COP 100 or 1000.

      For now Rossi reached a COP of 200, but as I understand it that’s not stable at all. It seemed more like a runaway reaction to me, ending in an explosion. At that reaction rate, possibly neutrons are released also. And those buggers are really dangerous…

      I do agree with your sentiment. We need to begin and colonize the Solar System.

  • Ophelia Rump

    You make me wonder about how dense the power output could be with LENR.
    The power to weight ratio is far beyond that of rocket fuel, could it power rockets?

    • Fortyniner

      ‘How could you dump that much heat…’ Only by continuously vapourising a liquid such as water on a very large surface area I think. Perhaps each core could be embedded in a solid metal lump with a number of holes bored through it, into which water is pumped under pressure and ejected as superheated steam from the opposite end. Without phase change cooling I think the core would just melt.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    I’d say that would be possible, even very likely but not for the immediate future. Once we understand the theory it might be easy to reach COP 100 or 1000.

    For now Rossi reached a COP of 200, but as I understand it that’s not stable at all. It seemed more like a runaway reaction to me, ending in an explosion. At that reaction rate, possibly neutrons are released also. And those buggers are really dangerous…

    I do agree with your sentiment. We need to begin and colonize the Solar System.

  • Paul

    I think the report could show a COP in the range 6-30, but it is not so important because Rossi has written in one of the last comments that they are working to a snake. This should mean that the Hot Cat are in series, reaching a COP as high as I want, provided that enough units in series are used. Perhaps every unit of the snake could be a mouse-mice couple.

  • Paul

    I think the report could show a COP in the range 6-30, but it is not so important because Rossi has written in one of the last comments that they are working to a snake. This should mean that the Hot Cat are in series, reaching a COP as high as I want, provided that enough units in series are used. Perhaps every unit of the snake could be a mouse-mice couple.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I think this is the perfect power source for space elevators.

    The US and Australia believe that manufacturing the ribbon will become feasible in about five years, and want to place one 500 miles south of Perth.

    Race on to build world’s first space elevator
    http://www.news.com.au/news/race-to-build-worlds-first-space-elevator/story-fna7dq6e-1111118059040

    • BroKeeper

      I think they have overshot their five year prediction a few months from the time this was written on November 17, 2008. Maybe they are close to a big announcement as well.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Nice catch. I wonder? overshot maybe, I need to research that.

      • US_Citizen71

        No not an over shoot, it was just a guess as to when materials science would advance to the point to offer up a material strong and light enough, it was not a guess as to when the cable would be done being manufactured. Graphene might be strong enough to make the cable so they are probably on target.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      “We identified that the Indian Ocean, about 500km off of Perth, was a prime location to site the Earth end of the cable,” Mr Ragan said.

      Could Malasia Airlines 370 have collided with the Space Elevator?
      What if they collided with the “Up Button”?

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    The reactor will have an “Indipendent Switch”, with two positions, Negative & Positive.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I think this is the perfect power source for space elevators.

    The US and Australia believe that manufacturing the ribbon will become feasible in about five years, and want to place one 500 miles south of Perth.

    Race on to build world’s first space elevator
    http://www.news.com.au/news/race-to-build-worlds-first-space-elevator/story-fna7dq6e-1111118059040

    • Brokeeper

      I think they have overshot their five year prediction a few months from the time this was written on November 17, 2008. Maybe they are close to a big announcement as well.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Nice catch. I wonder? overshot maybe, I need to research that.

      • US_Citizen71

        No not an over shoot, it was just a guess as to when materials science would advance to the point to offer up a material strong and light enough, it was not a guess as to when the cable would be done being manufactured. Graphene might be strong enough to make the cable so they are probably on target.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      “We identified that the Indian Ocean, about 500km off of Perth, was a prime location to site the Earth end of the cable,” Mr Ragan said.

      Could Malasia Airlines 370 have collided with the Space Elevator?
      What if they collided with the “Up Button”?

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    The reactor will have an “Indipendent Switch”, with two positions, Negative & Positive.

  • Barry8

    The catalyst that Rossi is using (according to Tom Wind, great vids by the way) “nickel coated with iron oxide.”

    • Fortyniner

      Oddly quiet response to this information, Barry – at one time this was the ‘Great Secret’ that would allow the garage experimenters to replicate the plumbing fittings reactor (assuming Tom Wind is accurate). There is still the ‘frequencies generator’ part to unravel I suppose, but if this was present in the prototype it was probably just a 50/60Hz induction coil.

  • The catalyst that Rossi is using (according to Tom Wind, great vids by the way) “nickel coated with iron oxide.”

    • Oddly quiet response to this information, Barry – at one time this was the ‘Great Secret’ that would allow the garage experimenters to replicate the plumbing fittings reactor (assuming Tom Wind is accurate). There is still the ‘frequencies generator’ part to unravel I suppose, but if this was present in the prototype it was probably just a 50/60Hz induction coil.

  • Daniel Maris

    OK, if you insist and have no moral objection to bigamy.

  • NT

    “Black Light Power, Inc latest press release is quite astonishing: http://www.blacklightpower.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/Press_Release_040214.pdf

    • JCK

      If it is true, PV panel technology is ready available up to 40% efficiency. This will beat Rossi to the market.

      • jonnyb

        The unit is so small I doubt that you could get enough PV arrays around it, unless they were far away, also it is so bright would it not destroy them? hummmmm The demo video I saw that they produced did not seem that bright, the same as my old wielder?

        • BroKeeper

          Agreed, to configure it into smaller confinement areas (cars) a more robust solar cell to collect and transform “500 times the earth’s surface sunlight” otherwise the circuits within would fry. Because of this I think this press release is based more on theoretical vs. experimental.

          The last public demo February was not convincing enough to demonstrate
          the conversion of its plasma into useful forms of power. I wish the best for BLP’s success along with Rossi’s E-Cat and the other LENR devices for the social economical reformation following will be enormous. The race to the finish line could be close but all contenders will be winners.

          • jonnyb

            Correct me if I’m wrong but it says 50,000 times the Sun’s intensity on the earth surface, assumed clear sky, day light etc, that’s a lot of Watts per Square meter. It would melt? burn, blind, evaporate, etc.

          • BroKeeper

            No, I stand corrected which makes the point stronger. Thanks Bro!!

          • US_Citizen71

            I agree I do not think a PV panel could handle 50 MW per square meter, that would be an intensity close to an industrial cutting laser.

    • blanco69

      Good find NT. 12000 amps input. I wonder at what voltage. Then of course are the out numbers from the PV array. Are they higher or lower than the input numbers. Why are these key stats always missing from these things?

    • Alan DeAngelis

      I know Mills gets really pissed off when you refer to his reaction as LENR but could you get all that energy from just dropping to a lower energy level (a chemical reaction)?

      Could it be due to the following LENR reactions?

      H(1) + O(17) > He(4) + N(14) 1.19 MeV

      H(1) + O(18) > He(4) + N(15) 3.98 MeV

      H(2) + O(16) > He(4) + N(14) 3.11 MeV

      H(2) + O(17) > He(4) + N(15) 9.80 MeV

      H(2) + O(18) > He(4) + N(16) 4.80 MeV

      H(2) + O(16) > H(1) + O(17) 1.92 MeV

      H(2) + O(17) > H(1) + O(18) 5.82 MeV

      H(2) + O(18) > H(1) + O(19) 1.73 MeV

      • Alan DeAngelis

        PS
        The electrons from the beta decays would be in MeVs

        N(16) > O(16) + e- 10.42 MeV

        O(19) > F(19) + e- 4.82 MeV

        D2O and oxygen -18 water, heavy water are commercially available.

  • NT

    “Black Light Power, Inc latest press release is quite astonishing: http://www.blacklightpower.com/wp-content/uploads/pdf/Press_Release_040214.pdf

    • JCK

      If it is true, PV panel technology is ready available up to 40% efficiency. This will beat Rossi to the market.

      • jonnyb

        The unit is so small I doubt that you could get enough PV arrays around it, unless they were far away, also it is so bright would it not destroy them? hummmmm The demo video I saw that they produced did not seem that bright, the same as my old wielder?

        • Brokeeper

          Agreed, to configure it into smaller confinement areas (cars) a more robust solar cell to collect and transform “500 times the earth’s surface sunlight” otherwise the circuits within would fry. Because of this I think this press release is based more on theoretical vs. experimental.

          The last public demo February was not convincing enough to demonstrate
          the conversion of its plasma into useful forms of power. I wish the best for BLP’s success along with Rossi’s E-Cat and the other LENR devices for the social economical reformation following will be enormous. The race to the finish line could be close but all contenders will be winners.

          • jonnyb

            Correct me if I’m wrong but it says 50,000 times the Sun’s intensity on the earth surface, assumed clear sky, day light etc, that’s a lot of Watts per Square meter. It would melt? burn, blind, evaporate, etc.

          • Brokeeper

            No, I stand corrected which makes the point stronger. Thanks Bro!!

          • US_Citizen71

            I agree I do not think a PV panel could handle 50 MW per square meter, that would be an intensity close to an industrial cutting laser.

          • bachcole

            Mills should get an honest job and stop jobbing people. 50,000 times the Sun’s intensity on the Earth’s surface, assuming clear skies, day light, etc., let’s see, <> “put down the zero, carry the zero . . . . . .” That comes to exactly 50,000 watts per square meter. This is WELL past vaporizing anything known to man. It might reach the level of a nuclear event, with some nuclei being torn asunder and some fusing. The waste heat alone would blow the surrounding area to smithereens. So, do we still think that Randall Mills has something? In a world of 100% honest people, at least Rossi’s first demos looked credible and real, even if he had no theory that he told us about. Only if one assumes dishonest people can one say that Rossi’s first demos were crooked. But Mills’ demos were so bad that it requires a great deal of effort to believe him, and now his words don’t make any sense.

            Wake me from my Mills nap when he has a credible demonstration. I don’t need lofty professors making sure that there is no cheating. I will be willing to listen to him when his demonstrations and/or his words make sense.

          • bachcole

            I won’t be expecting BLP to be across or anywhere near the finish line.

    • blanco69

      Good find NT. 12000 amps input. I wonder at what voltage. Then of course are the out numbers from the PV array. Are they higher or lower than the input numbers. Why are these key stats always missing from these things?

    • Alan DeAngelis

      I know Mills gets really pissed off when you refer to his reaction as LENR but could you get all that energy from just dropping to a lower energy level (a chemical reaction)?

      Could it be due to the following LENR reactions?

      H(1) + O(17) > He(4) + N(14) 1.19 MeV

      H(1) + O(18) > He(4) + N(15) 3.98 MeV

      H(2) + O(16) > He(4) + N(14) 3.11 MeV

      H(2) + O(17) > He(4) + N(15) 9.80 MeV

      H(2) + O(18) > He(4) + N(16) 4.80 MeV

      H(2) + O(16) > H(1) + O(17) 1.92 MeV

      H(2) + O(17) > H(1) + O(18) 5.82 MeV

      H(2) + O(18) > H(1) + O(19) 1.73 MeV

      • Alan DeAngelis

        PS
        The electrons from the beta decays would be in MeVs

        N(16) > O(16) + e- 10.42 MeV

        O(19) > F(19) + e- 4.82 MeV

        D2O and oxygen -18 water, heavy water are commercially available.

    • Hasn’t Blacklight been making claims for the last ten years. Where’s the beef?

  • artefact

    Ophelia means 20 percent heat to electricity conversion

    • Omega Z

      Sorry Roger.

      Skeptopaths is what I meant. I just abbreviated it..
      I also believe Rossi has the goods.
      However, a small part of me leaves open the possibility that it could be problematic to deploy. But I’d guess, it could be overcome in time.

      • Christopher Calder

        The demonstrations Blacklight presents just do not look credible to me. They look like just a spark machine run by high voltage electricity. I hope I am wrong. If I had money to invest, I would invest first in Defkalion, second in Rossi, and third in Brillouin.

        • jonnyb

          Have the feeling Rossi has it cracked, don’t discount Santilli and Thunder Fusion though.

  • Fortyniner

    There is also the possibility that EM-induced magnetostrictive effects might cause movements in the Ni lattice that could ‘crush’ H nuclei closer to Ni Nuclei wherever there are faults/discontinuities within the lattice, or perhaps within the lattice itself. This might be the purpose of the ‘frequencies generator’.

  • The demonstrations Blacklight presents just do not look credible to me. They look like just a spark machine run by high voltage electricity. I hope I am wrong. If I had money to invest, I would invest first in Defkalion, second in Rossi, and third in Brillouin.

    • jonnyb

      Have the feeling Rossi has it cracked, don’t discount Santilli and Thunder Fusion though.

    • bachcole

      A good reason not to invest in Rossi right now is that other people already have a lock on that one. The other two, yes. BLP, give me a break. I don’t like my intelligence insulted.

  • neanderthal

    To cut a long story short. Non of the mathematical papers I have read explain the mechanism intrinsically. I propose a subtle mechanism. The Coulomb barrier is not breached The hot nuclear physicist are correct Huzienga was right. However another process is at work. Similar to quantum tunnelling but not strictly. Particles have a virtual trajectory that move in a harmonised superwave. However the entropy of the system drops when in the vicinity of that system and increases but here the catch .entropy is a combined Hamiltonian combined meaning it is high and low due to its position . It creates its own virtual particle and bypasses the coulumb barrier.the columb barrier with respect to the virtual particle .I would need to explain it mathematical.Massive gauge bosons relating to gauge invariance. That what I meant earlier about the symmetry breaking SU2xU1.

  • neanderthal

    Someone just contacted me and showed me a paper .Scott R Chubb you beat me to it . Congratulations. Just browsing through his equations they seem correct

  • neanderthal

    Bose condesates could also be another mechanism there seem to be different types of lenrs