LENR — 'A Dragon With Many Tails'

I thought I would feature this post from ECW reader Neanderthal today as it seems to give a glimpse into the kind of thinking and discussion about LENR that may be going on behind the scenes in scientific (and other) institutions.

Today Neanderthal wrote this comment in another thread:

I work for one of the most prestigious Scientific Institutes in the UK.

We have been keeping a very close eye on this particular development. We know that the Lenr phenomena is real — we have studied literature in their abundance and have concluded this new science is a dragon with many tails. Let’s say that the general attitudes and direction among our colleagues have more weight than mere whispers in the refreshment rooms.

Mats Lewan’s book An Impossible Invention mentions that there are people in science and industry watching developments in LENR who are not wanting to come forward yet to publicize their interest, mainly because of fear of being ridiculed if the whole field turns out to be bogus, but also not wanting to be left behind if it takes off. We know very little about discussions going on in private in science and industry, but Neanderthal’s comment indicates that serious interest is indeed being given to LENR.

  • LENR G

    That comment caught my attention as well.

    I wonder if Neanderthal would expand upon his comments a bit? I take it to mean that if the Uppsala (?) validation is persuasive that it will kick off a flurry of scientific investigation — at least at his place of work. That LENR work would suddenly have enough credibility to go mainstream and compete for funding. Am I reading that right Neanderthal?

    • Ophelia Rump

      There would need to be funding available.

      • LENR G

        I would think that once the wall of disbelief is breached that LENR will be quite competitive wrt getting funding. It’s the perfect blend of important scientific mystery and potential applications.

        • Ophelia Rump

          I dare say the tide has already turned, just performing the testing.
          The core institutions involved are sufficient breach.

          • LENR G

            Feels like the tipping point. But only if the results are unambiguously positive and the circle of acceptance grows sufficiently large.

            The second point about the circle is important and is still very much in doubt. LENR is still very vulnerable to FUD. A lot will depend on how those involved behave after the report’s release. Is there more secrecy and more shadow moves? Or do we finally see a full fledged offense, to include working installations/products.

          • Ophelia Rump

            I think you are over cautious in this.
            The field need only be large enough to launch commercial acceptance in one country, or from one major provider, acceptance from one institution. That would be the point of no return. Product visibly and undeniably run by any large credible body would be unimpeachable. They then need only turn away and laugh when challenged.

          • friendlyprogrammer

            Yes. Let us hope that day comes soon. Once they see this plane fly, LENR manufacturers will need to turn down investors when they converge en masse.

  • That comment caught my attention as well.

    I wonder if Neanderthal would expand upon his comments a bit? I take them to mean that if the Uppsala (?) validation is persuasive that it will kick off a flurry of scientific investigation — at least at his place of work. That LENR work would suddenly have enough credibility to go mainstream and compete for funding. Am I reading that right Neanderthal?

    • Ophelia Rump

      There would need to be funding available.
      I dare say that any funding available is highly sought after in this environment, it is not the subject which limits research, it is the funding available for it.

      The people who manage funding are no less interested than those who do the research.

      The case must be made, the proofs overwhelming.

      From the sounds and ruminations surrounding this latest test, I sense the movement of institutions preparing to overwhelm.

      • I would think that once the wall of disbelief is breached that LENR will be quite competitive wrt getting funding. It’s the perfect blend of important scientific mystery and potential applications.

        • Ophelia Rump

          I dare say the tide has already turned, just performing the testing.
          The core institutions involved are sufficient breach.

          • Feels like the tipping point. But only if the results are unambiguously positive and the circle of acceptance grows sufficiently large.

            The second point about the circle is important and is still very much in doubt. LENR is still very vulnerable to FUD. A lot will depend on how those involved behave after the report’s release. Is there more secrecy and more shadow moves? Or do we finally see a full fledged offense, to include working installations/products.

          • Ophelia Rump

            I think you are over cautious in this.
            The field need only be large enough to launch commercial acceptance in one country, or from one major provider, acceptance from one institution. That would be the point of no return. Product visibly and undeniably run by any large credible body would be unimpeachable. They then need only turn away and laugh when challenged.

          • friendlyprogrammer

            Yes. Let us hope that day comes soon. Once they see this plane fly, LENR manufacturers will need to turn down investors when they converge en masse.

    • bachcole

      Remember that most research must necessarily follow funding, because young researchers have to pay their mortgage and support their families. So, the old farts that decide about the funding will be the ones deciding if there is a flurry of research. Businesses will do it first because the old farts in business just want to be rich; they don’t care if we the people like them. But the academic old farts will wait because they are still getting paid and they would lose their jobs if they did something that made them look stupid, like reverse themselves on everything that they have been saying for the past 25 years.

  • I confirm, that it can go as high as CTO of to planet companies.. but they are afraid of physicist and journalist gossip.
    Not everybody is named James Truchard.

  • I confirm, that it can go as high as CTO of to planet companies.. but they are afraid of physicist and journalist gossip.
    Not everybody is named James Truchard.

  • fritz194

    There are quite conservative layers within science trying to control funding and progress.
    Disruptive discoveries and technologies are highly unwanted – as long as they are not under control.
    Science is the church of progress, wealth and truth – and as long there is no need to discover something disruptive – nobody will risk his position in that game.
    There is quite enough awareness in higher circles to lenr and even CF – but as long as its possible to retard that development without loosing too much face in the end – thats modus operandi.
    And if you are not compliant with that process – you will be discredited and banned.
    Few clever folks hide a bit in remote faculties – and figure out how to arrange with that system..
    Next big thing after LENR will be gravity shielding if science is “ready” for it.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Sorry Fritz but I think large scale lighter than air solid construction materials will come before gravity shielding.
      Already there are vacuum solids which are little more than glass shells around a vacuum, which are lighter than air.
      Soon there may be airplanes which are lighter than air.

      You may look up to the sky and see floating aircraft carriers or bases for making launch into space less difficult.

  • Charles

    Neander writes: “Let’s say that the general attitudes and direction among our colleagues have more weight than mere whispers in the refreshment rooms.”
    I believe this statement to be emblematic of the English tendency to understate.

    Now to the hyperbole: Every executive in the Petrol, Coal, NGas, Uranium and power generating industries are quaking in their boots. E-mails are flying between execs, lobbyists, Congressmen and bureaucRats, “how we gonna stop this dragon. Where is our St. George?”. I’ll bet everyone of them is separating themselves from their investments in their industry, I sure would be doing so.

    • I don’t think it is a problem with business…
      Not yet… in next phase there will be panic over business, and over workers union and state companies…

      Currently it is just people who are afraid individually to be insulted, fired, demoted, ridiculed, not promoted, not published, not nobelized…

      currently it is academic and mediatic terror… not (yet) business and corporatist manipulations.

  • Charles

    Neander writes: “Let’s say that the general attitudes and direction among our colleagues have more weight than mere whispers in the refreshment rooms.”
    I believe this statement to be emblematic of the English tendency to understate.

    Now to the hyperbole: Every executive in the Petrol, Coal, NGas, Uranium and power generating industries are quaking in their boots. E-mails are flying between execs, lobbyists, Congressmen and bureaucRats, “how we gonna stop this dragon. Where is our St. George?”. I’ll bet everyone of them is separating themselves from their investments in their industry, I sure would be doing so.

    • I don’t think it is a problem with business…
      Not yet… in next phase there will be panic over business, and over workers union and state companies…

      Currently it is just people who are afraid individually to be insulted, fired, demoted, ridiculed, not promoted, not published, not nobelized…

      currently it is academic and mediatic terror… not (yet) business and corporatist manipulations.

      • bachcole

        I think that Alain as usual has got it right, even if he still hasn’t taken that English as a second language course that I ordered him to take. (:->)

        • Comment votre français est long à venir, Roger?

          • bachcole

            Pas très bon. Mais je n’essaie pas de faire des commentaires sur un site très majoritairement anglophone, suis-je? Je suis ni si politiquement correct que je suis inquiet que je vais les sentiments de douleur ou Alain lui faire sentir exclu. J’ai été joshing Alain à ce sujet pendant des années et il m’aime encore. (: ->)

          • ok, ok, désolé de massacrer autant l’anglais tous les jours.

  • Loni Hull

    With due respect, I think everyone here is missing the really disturbing question: If this round of testing validates E-Cat and LENR, how quickly and through which maneuvers will Big Energy move to take the reigns and ensure that we end up buying LENR from them at the rates we already pay (or higher) as they slowly roll it out over the course of 50 years amid ads touting their fantastic environmental stewardship?

    • overthetop

      At the same pace and manner as when the public was forced to beg for decades highly restricted, monopolistic and ever more costly electrical, telephone, television, rail, airline, and computer services starting immediately after their introduction and continuing ever since?

    • Fortyniner

      That can only happen if the energy cartels can gain exclusive control of the technology. Probably the only route to that is through scare tactics – playing the ‘nuclear’ card – in order to force LENR into the highly controlled area occupied by fission and nuclear materials in general. This phase will probably commence immediately following a public announcement of a working plant by any party, and has probably already have been prepared in outline.

      Once enough propaganda had been fed into the tame media to turn the public against a technology they hadn’t heard of a few weeks before, and especially if some kind of LENR related accident were to hit the headlines, then retained politicians would be in a position to enact appropriate legislation to bring the ‘threat’ under control by creating a state/corporate monopoly.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Did Ma Bell quash mobile? No, she died. SWBell bought the name.
      Did Smith-Corona quash computers?
      What ever happened to Kodak?
      Did Detroit quash Toyota & Honda?

      • friendlyprogrammer

        Bell was prevented by court order. They had a big enough shoe but anti Monopoly laws made them stay out of it.

        Kodak got squashed by digital photos. Guess nobody needs film..
        Toyota and Honda Squashed Detroit.

        I agree though. I think instead of squashing a good tech, it would be better to invest in it. It is hard to say though. A lot of politics over oil, and that means favoritisms.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Several things… LENR devices really do seem quite simple and are mostly just tubes. Dollar store flashlights seem to be much more complicated. It seems the magic is in the ingredients. If this is true we will see a LENR manufacturer in the basement of a house in every subdivision. It will be the most “stolen/pirated” tech in history. Even if the police pulled you over with a dozen LENR units in your car there would be nothing illegal about it.

      So… whoever controls LENR will likely license it cheap enough or they will be bypassed.

      The second thing I’d mention here is that this validation will likely likely smolder for a month in our forums and bring some conviction to the cause, but it will likely not be as convincing or interesting to the public as anything Kim Kaedashian might say to her manicurist.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I share your perspective on this. I happened to the invention of large scale roll printable solar cells. The entire venture went from the intent of selling low cost solar to homeowners to building low cost power farms to sell the electricity at standard prices.

      And yet I hope, this is the thing I like about Rossi the man. I think he has family values.
      I also think he has a benevolent nature.

      • Loni Hull

        I clearly remember being excited about large-scale printable PV and a few other technologies that were subverted, shelved, or ended up being vaporware. Fool me fifty times, I guess I become a realist.

        My expectation of LENR (given that it meets benchmarks for output) is that average utility customers will NOT see a substantial decrease in costs in my lifetime unless there are a few revolutions/upheavals in society and industry. That being said, I take some (very limited) comfort from the fact that technologies such as LENR and large-scale PV decrease the amount of fossil fuel traded, shipped, consumed, and stolen at military gunpoint.

        And of course I’ll build an E-Cat in my basement…

  • Loni Hull

    With due respect, I think everyone here is missing the really disturbing question: If this round of testing validates E-Cat and LENR, how quickly and through which maneuvers will Big Energy move to take the reigns and ensure that we end up buying LENR from them at the rates we already pay (or higher) as they slowly roll it out over the course of 50 years amid ads touting their fantastic environmental stewardship?

    • overthetop

      At the same pace and manner as when the public was forced to beg for decades highly restricted, monopolistic and ever more costly electrical, telephone, television, rail, airline, and computer services starting immediately after their introduction and continuing ever since?

      • Loni Hull

        Rossi seems determined not to let that happen, but as I understand it, if Cherokee was undermined by big enough bribes the technology could be taken entirely out of his control and rolled out (or not) at the discretion of a “re-motivated” board of directors. Is that not how things stand already, or does Rossi maintain the right to compete if they shelve his work?

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          Rossi has the edge but doesn’t own the entire field of LENR. If IH drags its feet, other companies will prevail. Japan & Korea are not beholding to Big Energy.

    • bachcole

      Unless they want to break the law, I doubt that so-called Big Energy are going to have much to say about the matter. MANY small companies have become big companies in the last 140 years. I told my wife yesterday that Industrial Heat in her lifetime would become the biggest, most powerful company in the history of the world. Of course, she just sat there wondering if I was going to do the laundry or not.

    • That can only happen if the energy cartels can gain exclusive control of the technology. Probably the only route to that is through scare tactics – playing the ‘nuclear’ card – in order to force LENR into the highly controlled area occupied by fission and nuclear materials in general. This phase might commence immediately following a public announcement of a working plant by any party, and has probably already have been prepared in outline.

      Once enough propaganda had been fed into the tame media to turn the public against a technology they hadn’t heard of a few weeks before, and especially if some kind of LENR related accident were to hit the headlines, then retained politicians would be in a position to enact legislation in order to bring the ‘threat’ under control by creating a multinational state/corporate monopoly (i.e., the same as fission).

      Continuing high electricity prices could be ‘justified’ by claiming that a higher profit margin is required in order to underwrite the costs of replacing or retrofitting existing ‘dirty’ power stations ‘to cut CO2 emissions as quickly as possible’, decommissioning nuclear and so on. And of course in order to provide ongoing – and probably increased – energy taxes for government, although less might be made of this aspect in public.

      Smile as you pay through the nose – it will be for the good of the planet you know.

      • Loni Hull

        That is absolutely plausible. We need to keep discussion levels high and promote the hell out of LENR as soon as mainstream science concedes its validity (should they do so). My advice is to share, share, share, with technologically illiterate friends and family and emphasize that the process has nothing to do with fission or radioactivity, is no more dangerous than existing (non-nuclear) utility equipment, and will require similar levels of training for technicians.

        Other suggestions?

        • orsobubu

          LENRs technologies could considerably lower the profit margin of energy companies. This, because of the fewer people needed to be put at work, with consequently smaller extracted surplus value. Fall of the profit sage is a regularity in any capitalistic system. This process is not automatically balanced by increases in other production areas, see, i.e., what extensive automation made to the automotive industry, relatively to the raise of the new branch of computer technologies in the ’80s. Classic countermeasures represented by tariffs, taxes, cartels, trusts, protectionism, etc are detrimental for functionality or a market society, but their are the reality of current state-capitalism and imperialistic political economy. As always, all the losses of the capital’s reproduction scheme are charged on
          workers’ shoulders, while corporations and bureaucratic parasites
          privatize the profits, but in the particular phase of production overcapacity, diminishing profits, unemployment, inflation or deflation, often the outcome in history are catastrophic crisis, fascism and wars. So my suggestion is to keep constantly active your critics on the economic and political system, more then on specific technologic issues, because these depends on those. Material interests -exchange value, or money – and not the user value in the general interests of people, will surely dictate the way LENRs wil be used – if proved real – in peace and in war.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      Did Ma Bell quash mobile? No, she died. SWBell bought the name.
      Did Smith-Corona quash computers?
      What ever happened to Kodak?
      Did Detroit quash Toyota & Honda?

      • friendlyprogrammer

        Bell was prevented by court order. They had a big enough shoe but anti Monopoly laws made them stay out of it.

        Kodak got squashed by digital photos. Guess nobody needs film..
        Toyota and Honda Squashed Detroit.

        I agree though. I think instead of squashing a good tech, it would be better to invest in it. It is hard to say though. A lot of politics over oil, and that means favoritisms.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Several things… LENR devices really do seem quite simple and are mostly just tubes. Dollar store flashlights seem to be much more complicated. It seems the magic is in the ingredients. If this is true we will see a LENR manufacturer in the basement of a house in every subdivision. It will be the most “stolen/pirated” tech in history. Even if the police pulled you over with a dozen LENR units in your car there would be nothing illegal about it.

      So… whoever controls LENR will likely license it cheap enough or they will be bypassed.

      The second thing I’d mention here is that this validation will likely likely smolder for a month in our forums and bring some conviction to the cause, but it will likely not be as convincing or interesting to the public as anything Kim Kaedashian might say to her manicurist.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I share your perspective on this. I happened to the invention of large scale roll printable solar cells. The entire venture went from the intent of selling low cost solar to homeowners to building low cost power farms to sell the electricity at standard prices.

      And yet I hope, this is the thing I like about Rossi the man. I think he has family values.
      I also think he has a benevolent nature.

      • Loni Hull

        I clearly remember being excited about large-scale printable PV and a few other technologies that were subverted, shelved, or ended up being vaporware. Fool me fifty times, I guess I become a realist.

        My expectation of LENR (given that it meets benchmarks for output) is that average utility customers will NOT see a substantial decrease in costs in my lifetime unless there are a few revolutions/upheavals in society and industry. That being said, I take some (very limited) comfort from the fact that technologies such as LENR and large-scale PV decrease the amount of fossil fuel traded, shipped, consumed, and stolen at military gunpoint.

        And of course I’ll build an E-Cat in my basement…

  • Donk970

    The fact that research into LENR can be done without tens of billions of dollars to build a giant machine that might go over unity if you squint your eyes just right when reading the data is what has the powers that be quaking in their boots. There has been tremendous profit motivation to retard the progress of LENR research but it hasn’t worked because it can be done on a shoe string budget. We are quickly reaching a tipping point where even the most hardened deniers will have to admit that LENR is real. Very soon now there will be a rush to get in on the LENR game before it becomes too prolific to make big profits on.

    • bachcole

      LOL = “might go over unity if you squint your eyes just right when reading the data” (:->)

  • Christopher Calder

    Some people foolishly keep saying that the fossil fuel industry will try to block LENR. This is nonsense and contradicted by historical fact. Oil companies have wasted billions of their own dollars on biofuels, windmills, and solar projects, just like our governments. We are going to need oil as an automotive fuel for at least another 20 to 30 years no matter what happens with LENR. The enemies of LENR are the wind, solar, and biofuel industries, and the cultists who have made “renewable” into a religion, despite the fact that in the real world only hydroelectric power and, to a much lesser extent, geothermal power are of any true value for large scale energy production. All those windmills will be torn down long before they rust and decay because the cost of upkeep will be far higher than switching to LENR. The oil companies will invest in and make money with LENR, and they will use LENR energy to make oil from tar sands and shale. Sell your stocks in renewable energy companies, not in oil companies.

    • Loni Hull

      To be clear, I’m not worried about them blocking LENR, but I don’t want them to control its development or implementation in my neighbourhood, either. Sadly, what I want doesn’t matter one iota.

    • LENR G

      Energy companies, be it oil, gas, or renewable that see themselves as primarily energy companies and act accordingly will survive and perhaps flourish in the LENR era.

      Companies that resist and stubbornly hold on to diminishing returns in technologies that are being eclipsed will struggle and some will eventually go bankrupt.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Natural gas, the present go-to fuel for HEAT, will be devastated.

    • Private Citizen

      Fossil fuel stocks will crash once LENR is verified. CEO’s and other vested interests will lose billions overnight. Even if the world will need oil for a while longer, the fact that a low cost alternative exists greatly will diminish the worth of oil reserves.

      LENR will make extraction and refinement of fossil products cheaper/more profitable as well, so there might be some cushion in that effect.

      LENR is so disruptive, it boggles the mind to sort out the implications.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Fossil fuel stocks may initially crash but oil will rebound when the market
        realizes it will be decades before cars & trucks will be powered by LENR.

        • GreenWin

          Iggy, don’t forget how fast we adopted the automobile once the Model T made it economical. Ford went from 10k auto sales to 500k in ONE year (due to assembly line efficiency.) Electric vehicles will do the same once initially cost is reduced. http://cleantechnica.com/2013/12/06/11-electric-cars-prices-lower-average-new-car/

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            Electric cars pose a bigger threat to oil than does LENR.

            Karl Benz build his car in 1886. 22 years later, Henry Ford made them affordable.

            I bet it’ll take at least 10 years for LENR to be a force in the electric generating industry. Military in 5 years.

            I bet the 1st large LENR electric generator will be in a U.S. Navy ship.

          • Billy Jackson

            theirs no doubt about that.. our military isn’t stupid and oil/fuel is the weakest link in the chain at the moment. they normally have a 30-60 day supply, if we ever have a shortage.. they will have millions and millions of tons of equipment that become lawn ornaments.

            LENR will transform us.. consumer demand for it will push it into the market faster than you expect.. after that it will just be a matter of watching efficiencies and features of the product go up every year just as we do now with TV’s and cellphones.

            i don’t think it will take decades, but the roll out isnt going to happen in a year or two.. not enough plants not enough infrastructure to support em even if they did.

            you’ll see large energy companies and industrial complexes benefit first. with a few consumer products slowly coming onto the market over time. ramping up faster and faster as infrastructure is built.. your talking more than just the USA here.. were talking world wide even if plant kicked out 100,000 a week you would still need 100’s of plants and years before we had enough devices to fill the requests.

          • GreenWin

            Yep. The Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, and Plug-in Prius are all selling well. The Mitsubishi-i starts at $15.5k. With LENR generated electric rates will go to <$.01 (1 cent) per kWh. This means the "fuel" for battery powered EVs will cost essentially ZERO.

            Oilco's attempt to replace gasoline with H2 is doomed at this price level. In fact H2 will never fly as a "fuel." Reformed NG (to H2) will power micro-CHP FC systems like the Bosch SOFC unit selling in EU.

            If the BLP SF-CIHT water-plasma system can be streamlined, it may be first to power a naval vessel. Why? BLP holds a very broad patent on hydrino energy – and has a history of work with military.

          • Fortyniner

            “H2 will never fly as a “fuel.””

            It has some drawbacks, but storage is being solved by means of hydride cannisters. A battery and resistance would be needed to begin the release of gas at a modest pressure, but exhaust heat (from either IC or a fuel cell) could be diverted to sustain it. A network of quick exchange stations would be needed, where standard cannisters could be automatically exchanged from below the vehicle.

            I agree about water plasma being a likely future vehicle power source, whether this comes from Mills or from one of the many similar technologies which claimed to harness water as a fuel:

            https://2012thebigpicture.wordpress.com/tag/stanley-meyers-water-fuel-cell/

          • BuildItNow

            Gas turbines currently generating electricity could be easy to convert to LENR, see NASA seedling talk in Feb this year and this twitter feed, Rossi is working on converting a gas turbine to gas / LENR as we sit behind our keyboards. The correct name might be “air LENR turbine”. I’ll bet Rossi has an air LENR turbine generating electricity with his hot cat very soon. Siemens is working with Rossi. Siemens makes large gas turbines for electricity generation that could be fairly easy to convert to air LENR. Gas turbines were converted to use air and conventional nuclear back in the 60’s 70’s in the experimental nuclear powered planes, see NASA seedlings talk so it’s essentially proven technology.

            It could be conceivable that a tiny (30kw) air LENR turbine could be a retrofit to electric cars or battery plug in hybrids, in short order. No plugging in any more, if it has enough power, drive continuously without refueling except for a few replacement LENR cartridges each year or so.

            Consider buying your plug in hybrid now before they get really scarce.

          • Private Citizen

            Toyota plans to release a 500 mile range hydrogen fuel cell car next year. With advancements in cheaper fuel cells and LENR-generated hydrogen, adoption could come very rapidly.

        • Christopher Calder

          I agree. How many oil propelled cars and trucks are there in the world? How long would it take to replace all of them even if we did have an affordable replacement?

          • friendlyprogrammer

            Just sell everyone a trailer that has LENR to electric conversion, and if they have a gas vehicle add a hydrogen step to that process. Conversions lose energy, but would still be far cheaper than any of us can remember driving for.

          • Fortyniner

            Ever tried reversing a trailer into a parking place?! Maybe a roof pod instead.

        • Private Citizen

          If a low cost, virtually endless mileage, LENR car is possible, and by the specs that looks highly likely, adoption will be incredibly fast. We live in an era of increasingly, ridiculously fast technology adoption. As the future market share for oil burners will look anemic, so will the value of many decades worth of of oil reserves–especially with LENR causing cheaper biofuels, electricity, and other alternatives. There might even be LENR retrofit car engines. Average age of a car is only about a decade.

          Oil will crash and stay crashed, in my humble.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            In the automotive industry with its high demands on reliability and safety it takes a very long time to bring a new propulsion system to market maturity – 20 years of development are not unusual. And even if the customers accept the new technology, it would take more than a decade until most of the old models have been replaced. When the first reliable LENR reactors will be available, we might see relatively soon some experimental cars. You won’t be able to get one from your dealer around the corner. But it will be interesting enough to observe and compare the different concepts: Steam cars, electric cars with a LENR-driven battery charger, or even more futuristic concepts, perhaps similar to the Papp engine. In any case, we will have no reason to complain about a lack of stuff for interesting discussions…

          • Fortyniner

            Comment votre français est long à venir, Roger?

      • friendlyprogrammer

        Yes. It is likely a crash could occur, and this is why I think LENR is meeting some resistance. It is labeled a disruptive tech for a reason. I think it will prove positive however.

        • discussion with innovators I learned a different kind of disruption effect.

          most people imagine that the new technology will destroy the old market as it replace existing technology…

          in fact innovator know that it is much much more violent :
          the day people learn that LENR is real and can probably replace oil, nuke, wind, co2 quota, shale, smartgrid…
          they will instantly stop any investment in those technology, stop any buying of long lasting equipent…
          nobody will buy an expensive car, and expensive plane, and expensive powerplant.

          stupidly it will be time to invest in coal powerplant manufacturing, in old nearly exhausted oil fields, in old refineries, in old cargo, old planes…

          everybody will wait for the LENr plane.
          my advice is that all industries prepare a 3 phase plan, stating simultaneously, and delivering in sequence :
          – develop cheap/short-life variant of old tech devices
          – develop old-tech devices which can be retrofitted with LENR when available, and then develop the retrofit
          – develop full-blood LENR devices to normalize the market

          with that you can survive.
          It seems some companies prepare for that, but sure they don’t tell it not to look crazy.

          • Donk970

            You’re probably right, I remember how Microsoft used to kill off competitors in a particular market by announcing their own product even if they hadn’t even started work on it yet. People really would just sit and wait for years for MS to get the product done instead of buying something that was already on the market with the result being no more competition.

          • friendlyprogrammer

            Yes. I am tempted to buy a 200′ ship now with Engine trouble in hopes I can make it electric someday.

            I think one thing that will save us though is even though the technology is announced, it does not seem to sink in fast these days. Nobody cares about science until it affects them.

            I agree with that scenario though and I have recently said I am in favor of smog producing coal at the moment because LENR seems so close.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      I believe natural gas and renewable energy will be hurt 1st.

    • Stanny Demesmaker

      I really don’t see how the energy companies will survive in a period of 10/15 years. When the technology matures and you have a 30kW reactor which gives you continous heat/airco/electricity with a cartridge of a year. How can they make a profit with that perspective?

      Wasn’t there a article a week back that the Navy could create oil from seawater? With LENR this technology becomes immediately economical feasible for the rest of us.

      The stock prices of all the energy companies will crash, but it will take a while before LENR will start to fundamentally change the real economy.

      • friendlyprogrammer

        You seem to be discussing Electrical Power. How would a 30kW electrical generator affect any fossil fuel company (aside from hybrid/electric cars)?

        If LENR powered Cars/Trucks/Trains/Planes then transportation costs would be cut in half (minimum). This means every nut, bolt, and widget in your television will not only be manufactured in a factory heated or AC by LENR, but every component will be reduced in price. This means if it cost them $300 to build a tv now they will be able to make it for $100 once LENR hits. How would cheaper everything not affect the economy?

        Even desalination would become very cheap and we might see Arizona become prime farmland with a few water pipelines.

        The governments normally run the type of energy companies you discuss (electrical). This means the governments will not have reason to maintain as heightened an infrastructure, but they can downsize and save billions as well. Unemployed Hydro workers can get jobs installing LENR.

        I think LENR will create a building boom where prosperity is forced upon even the poor to some extent. The rich will all want their 100″ monitors/televisions, but the poor won’t even remember 29″ screens. With more production and cheaper transportation food can become healthier and cheaper at the same time.

        Champagne to all..

      • Billy Jackson

        your under the assumption that people are going to magical get this device installed, serviced, and upkeep into the house all by itself. the energy companies will survive by going to the same type of service plan that a cellphone uses.

        as of right now the ecat still needs 1/3rd of its energy from the grid to be controllable so its not free from the energy companies yet. you still gotta pay the energy companies that cost.

        conversion alone wont be simple as plugging this in. you’ll need electricians for that.

        I think personally the energy companies will stay around.. you will see them become more profitable as the large overhead of bringing in train loads of coal or other fuels to power the power plant slowly diminish in use.

        you have a crazy amount of people that know NOTHING about electricity and thus will want a service to handle it for them for installation. maintenance. and upgrades. the energy companies will be the first adopters offering a premium to the makers of the E-CAT simply to reduce their overhead (maximize profits)

        (free e-cat for your home by signing a 2 year contract for 79.99 per month) coverage consists of, free installation, service, warranty, and product upgrades in the future.

        sound familiar?

        the future will be almost all mobile machines will be powered by electric because its cheaper than fossil fuel. trains, boats, airplanes, your car, the construction equipment down at the yard.. everything mobile will go electric, the only reason it hasn’t is the price of gas is cheaper AT THE MOMENT than electricity.

        i think the electric companies may see a BOOM in usage if they play their cards right.

        • Job001

          Na, one can get energy from a battery bank through an inverter and then put steady battery charge back in. No utility will be necessary except for us who don’t want to run our own utility if energy is cheap.

          Most likely controllability will not require more than 1/6 to 1/12 of the energy produced, that’s what research is for.

          Agree utilities may find usage goes up dramatically for new uses like mining landfills, refinery made fuel, producing water, indoor greenhouses, and other uses yet undreamed of.

      • winebuff

        I think what u will see is a reduction in oil prices (price shock) then stabilize back at normal pre lenr levels and then as lenr gains market share and affects the auto market (personally I think it will be hydrogen in cars) then prices will rise steeply with reduced exploration and demand. There are fixed costs to oil and they wont be met by a much smaller market.

        • Quiet Wine Guy

          This ignores the effect of slowing and actual reduction of total demand. High cost producers will not be able to compete with low cost producers like Saudi Arabia and high cost producers will be ‘pushed’ out of the market into bankruptcy or buyouts. The high fixed costs will leave the market.

          And, as has been mentioned, the Military’s new technology of synthesizing oil from sea water will be dramatically impacted by the dramatic change in cost of energy, i.e., LENR energy. The cost of synthesizing ‘carbon neutral’ oil will drop materially.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      If an Ecat was released coupled with a generator and everything was able to fit into the back of a 5 ton truck… I think we would see mass research into scaling it down for autos.
      Even if it lost 75% of its power during conversion and another 75% if we expanded this to a hydrogen conversion truck it would still be far cheaper than gas. Either way… An Electric or hydrogen truck running on Nickel would start an auto fuel race.

      I guess Im disagreeing with your timeline. 20-30 years in an information age is more than double what I would guess.

      I am not sure how oil would react to LENR. I thought it would not pose a problem, but LENR seems to have many artificial obstacles such as patent rejections. It is interesting how completely LENR seems to be ignored. This article shows hope is on the horizon.

      Thanks Neanderthal.

      • BuildItNow

        Alainco “work change” is key to understanding how fast the transition to LENR could occur. Consider if there is even a mild doubt in the minds of people interested in installing solar on their roof, putting in a fracking well, investing in wind power, building a new power plant, could not the doubt “put off doing more work” until LENR is evaluated?

        Could there be a lot of people looking for work that once worked for all the businesses put “now” on hold while LENR is evaluated?
        Could these people looking for work, jump at the new opportunity, LENR conversion of vehicles, power plants, home units, etc. etc. ?

        How many people could this be?
        How fast will the innovation be, I’ve read that 1 year after the Wright Brothers flew over Paris, it was estimated millions were working on aircraft, and, that’s the early 1900, how many would work on LENR today?

        My conclusion is that, when / if LENR breaks into the public consciousness as real, all bets are off as to how fast the transition will be.

        20 years to convert existing cars could be very pessimistic.

        • my vision is that the new LENr cars will be developed in total panic, will be unreliable, but all unreliable… then they will be improved in 20 years…

          • friendlyprogrammer

            I think they will simply be trailers pulled behind electric cars in the beginning or trailers that can convert LENR to ELECTRIC to HYDROGEN.

            I do not envision steam powered cars for at least a decade, but Electric cars already have the abilities, just not the size. Nobody will want a tiny electric car. They will want a huge electric motorhome.

            My thoughts on the future of this are all over the place, but in a concise place here.

            http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/02/12/a-vision-of-a-cold-fusion-future-how-to-adapt-to-abundance/

        • friendlyprogrammer

          Yes. I was arguing against the 20-30 year timeline in my post. I think once this goes mainstream people will be driving Electric Cars powered by LENR in 5 years. I also think anybody driving a new gas car will have an on board hydrogen plant (LENR Powered) to fuel their tank.

          I predicted a LENR vehicle within 10 years back in 2011. That gives me another 7 years..

          I have also said the LENR devices look less complicated than dollar store flashlights and everyone displaced from the Solar/Wind industries (and NEWENRGYTIMES WEBSITE Narf!) will be making LENR devices in their basements. I have predicted this will be the most widely copied device in history and the patent owners would be wise simply to make authenticating stickers for recognized units.

          • Kola

            Years pass and not one product brought to market … Not even a boiler for a steam engine.

          • LENR G

            The technology has only become commercially viable in the past 3 years when Rossi was able to get a handle on the E-Cat temperature and control. In between a newly discovered viable technology and a product there are many barriers. These include R&D, prototype development, long term reliability testing, industrial certifications and verification, business formation/expansion — and seeking capital to support all the above.

            It is typical for start-ups to take many years to get a product to market — and that’s for well understood stuff like processors and software.

            Rossi is clearly following the path to a commercial product — found a partner, got some money to accelerate R&D, created and tested prototypes, and entered long term product reliability testing in the Fall of 2013. For which we all currently await the results.

          • Ophelia Rump

            Rossi brought the 1 MW E-cat plant to market last year.
            Scrape up 1.5 Million and you can have one.
            Try to keep up.

          • bachcole

            I can’t keep up. I skip over the heavy calculations and the DIY LENR+ at home comments.

          • Ophelia Rump

            Lol, I am pretty sure that some of these recent comments are just word echos from research papers found online. Nonsense phrases designed to impress.

            Which is exactly how I replied to that one by Neanderthal.
            To each in kind.

          • Neanderthal

            I will take your test Ophelia. If need be I will derive those correctional terms step by step I am speaking about the Monte Carlos sampling. A foot note you are in the wrong ball park. Clue number one do not think about discrete methods. Let me see your prowess. Look at all the piece s that I gave. You should be able from there to catch my drift. And run the simulation in Chemworks. You seem to be very sharp 😉
            I had to reply.
            P.s. I am not a fraud

          • jonnyb

            Don’t worry Neanderthal it sounds like your organisation may be able to produce some new papers on the subject soon, maybe then you can come back at tell them ‘I told you so’ It is pretty obvious that you know quite a bit about the subject, more that most of us. Genuine as you can get in my mind.

          • Neanderthal

            We are working in one direction in our theoretical proof. You may or may not be aware that this is a multi body problem. I can not speak for rossi in his upcomingTheoretical proof. But it does seem plausibe that he is going in the realms of the Quantum ring theory.Which I support strongly. Yes Chubbs mechanism is only half the story. This is not a small issue but moreso a unification mechanism in our intinsic laws. Our Theory brings a concept of a term/s that lie in in the complex frequency domain it requires a beautiful term that is a modular function already discovered by an indian mathematician. Any Mathematical physicist can verify our publications for its sincerity when it is released .The dragon has a beautiful side.

          • LENR G

            I thought you couldn’t say any more.

            I guess jonnyb has your 6 though so it’s safe to come back in the water.

          • jonnyb

            I’m just very interested in the whole subject, if I disbelieved every positive thing said on this site I would have left long ago. Open mind and the realisation that others know so much more about this than I do, as I’m just a washed up electronics engineer, who has left the industry as the work coming my way was too boring.

          • Neanderthal

            We will submit our publications to the big journals in the UK. Around about July time frame. However we have competition in Japan. Who are a very big player. There they may beat us to it. The person in Storms lecture who was very vocal at the end. We are keeping close eyes on this person.

          • jonnyb

            The best of luck to you and your team

          • LENR G

            Now this I can grok. You have committed to something specific: publication ~July.

            Given all the secrets being kept by all the players in LENR my tolerance for anyone who comes along and hints at wonderful marvelous things without being specific is zero. Thanks you for being specific.

            More specifics are welcome.

          • jonnyb

            Can you tell us when and where the publications will be published?

          • Ophelia Rump

            Too late. Now you need to prove yourself on your own. Then benefit of first doubt is lost to you.

          • Gerrit

            Engineering reliable devices which utilize effects not yet fully described in scientific literature might well take just a bit longer than flinging together another novelty digital gadget.

    • to what you say I will add that the worst enemy of LENr, beside greenergies, CO2 companies, Climate searchers, will be the electric grid workers union and the governments who will try to save their electors from a work change…

  • Some people foolishly keep saying that the fossil fuel industry will try to block LENR. This is nonsense and contradicted by historical fact. Oil companies have wasted billions of their own dollars on biofuels, windmills, and solar projects, just like our governments. We are going to need oil as an automotive fuel for at least another 20 to 30 years no matter what happens with LENR. The enemies of LENR are the wind, solar, and biofuel industries, and the cultists who have made “renewable” into a religion, despite the fact that in the real world only hydroelectric power and, to a much lesser extent, geothermal power are of any true value for large scale energy production. All those windmills will be torn down long before they rust and decay because the cost of upkeep will be far higher than switching to LENR. The oil companies will invest in and make money with LENR, and they will use LENR energy to make oil from tar sands, shale, and *coal*. [I added coal as an edit – It is easy to make all kinds of synthetic fuels from coal if heat and electricity are cheap.] Sell your stocks in renewable energy companies, not in oil companies.

    • Loni Hull

      To be clear, I’m not worried about them blocking LENR, but I don’t want them to control its development or implementation in my neighbourhood, either. Sadly, what I want doesn’t matter one iota.

    • Energy companies, be it oil, gas, or renewable that see themselves as primarily energy companies and act accordingly will survive and perhaps flourish in the LENR era.

      Companies that resist and stubbornly hold on to diminishing returns in technologies that are being eclipsed will struggle and some will eventually go bankrupt.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Natural gas, the present go-to fuel for HEAT, will be devastated.

        • bachcole

          Iggy, you otherwise witty and insightful fellow, natural gas is the least expansive and cleanest of all of the fossil fuels, and it will not be hit first and hardest. Coal and/or oil will be hit first and hardest. They are both dirty as hell and the most expensive.

    • Private Citizen

      Fossil fuel stocks will crash once LENR is verified. CEO’s and other vested interests will lose billions overnight. Even if the world will need oil for a while longer, the fact that a low cost alternative exists greatly will diminish the worth of oil reserves.

      LENR will make extraction and refinement of fossil products cheaper/more profitable as well, so there might be some cushion in that effect.

      LENR is so disruptive, it boggles the mind to sort out the implications.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Fossil fuel stocks may initially crash but oil will rebound when the market
        realizes it will be decades before cars & trucks will be powered by LENR.

        • GreenWin

          Iggy, don’t forget how fast we adopted the automobile once the Model T made it economical. Ford went from 10k auto sales to 500k in ONE year (due to assembly line efficiency.) Electric vehicles will do the same once initially cost is reduced. http://cleantechnica.com/2013/12/06/11-electric-cars-prices-lower-average-new-car/

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            Electric cars pose a bigger threat to oil than does LENR.

            Karl Benz build his car in 1886. 22 years later, Henry Ford made them affordable.

            I bet it’ll take at least 10 years for LENR to be a force in the electric generating industry. Military in 5 years.

            I bet the 1st large LENR electric generator will be in a U.S. Navy ship.

          • Billy Jackson

            theirs no doubt about that.. our military isn’t stupid and oil/fuel is the weakest link in the chain at the moment. they normally have a 30-60 day supply, if we ever have a shortage.. they will have millions and millions of tons of equipment that become lawn ornaments.

            LENR will transform us.. consumer demand for it will push it into the market faster than you expect.. after that it will just be a matter of watching efficiencies and features of the product go up every year just as we do now with TV’s and cellphones.

            i don’t think it will take decades, but the roll out isnt going to happen in a year or two.. not enough plants not enough infrastructure to support em even if they did.

            you’ll see large energy companies and industrial complexes benefit first. with a few consumer products slowly coming onto the market over time. ramping up faster and faster as infrastructure is built.. your talking more than just the USA here.. were talking world wide even if plant kicked out 100,000 a week you would still need 100’s of plants and years before we had enough devices to fill the requests.

          • GreenWin

            Yep. The Nissan Leaf, Chevy Volt, and Plug-in Prius are all selling well. The Mitsubishi-i starts at $15.5k. With LENR generated electric rates will go to <$.01 (1 cent) per kWh. This means the "fuel" for battery powered EVs will cost essentially ZERO.

            Oilco's attempt to replace gasoline with H2 is doomed at this price level. In fact H2 will never fly as a "fuel." Reformed NG (to H2) will power micro-CHP FC systems like the Bosch SOFC unit selling in EU.

            If the BLP SF-CIHT water-plasma system can be streamlined, it may be first to power a naval vessel. Why? BLP holds a very broad patent on hydrino energy – and has a history of work with military.

          • “H2 will never fly as a “fuel.””

            It has some drawbacks, but the main one – storage – is being solved by means of hydride cannisters. A battery and resistance would be needed to begin the release of H2 gas from a light metal hydride at a modest pressure, but exhaust heat (from either IC or a fuel cell) could be diverted to sustain it. A network of quick exchange stations would be needed, where discharged standard cannisters could be automatically exchanged from underneath a vehicle.

            Duty and standby cannisters plus a smaller manually-replacable emergency unit (the equivalent of a spare can of fuel in the boot) would ensure continuity. Of course, you would need to make sure that your spouse doesn’t empty the ‘spare’ without bothering to refill it or even to tell you, leaving you high and dry in a country lane in the middle of nowhere (does that sound bitter?).

            I agree about water plasma being a likely future vehicle power source if the current suppression is ever lifted, whether this comes from Mills or from one of the many similar technologies which claim/claimed to harness water as a fuel:

            https://2012thebigpicture.wordpress.com/tag/stanley-meyers-water-fuel-cell/

          • BuildItNow

            Gas turbines currently generating electricity could be easy to convert to LENR, see NASA seedling talk in Feb this year and this twitter feed, Rossi is working on converting a gas turbine to gas / LENR as we sit behind our keyboards. The correct name might be “air LENR turbine”. I’ll bet Rossi has an air LENR turbine generating electricity with his hot cat very soon. Siemens is working with Rossi. Siemens makes large gas turbines for electricity generation that could be fairly easy to convert to air LENR. Gas turbines were converted to use air and conventional nuclear back in the 60’s 70’s in the experimental nuclear powered planes, see NASA seedlings talk so it’s essentially proven technology.

            It could be conceivable that a tiny (30kw) air LENR turbine could be a retrofit to electric cars or battery plug in hybrids, in short order. No plugging in any more, if it has enough power, drive continuously without refueling except for a few replacement LENR cartridges each year or so.

            Consider buying your plug in hybrid now before they get really scarce.

          • Private Citizen

            Toyota plans to release a 500 mile range hydrogen fuel cell car next year. With advancements in cheaper fuel cells and LENR-generated hydrogen, adoption could come very rapidly.

        • I agree. How many oil propelled cars and trucks are there in the world? How long would it take to replace all of them even if we did have an affordable replacement?

          • friendlyprogrammer

            Just sell everyone a trailer that has LENR to electric conversion, and if they have a gas vehicle add a hydrogen step to that process. Conversions lose energy, but would still be far cheaper than any of us can remember driving for.

          • Ever tried reversing a trailer into a parking place?! Maybe a roof pod instead.

        • Private Citizen

          If a low cost, virtually endless mileage, LENR car is possible, and by the specs that looks highly likely, adoption will be incredibly fast. We live in an era of increasingly, ridiculously fast technology adoption. As the future market share for oil burners will look anemic, so will the value of many decades worth of of oil reserves–especially with LENR causing cheaper biofuels, electricity, and other alternatives. There might even be LENR retrofit car engines. Average age of a car is only about a decade–and that is without incentive to buy a far cheaper alternative.

          Heating oil also will become a buggy whip commodity, with low cost LENR heating.

          Oil will crash and stay crashed, in my humble.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            In the automotive industry with its high demands on reliability and safety it takes a very long time to bring a new propulsion system to market maturity – 20 years of development are not unusual. And even if the customers accept the new technology, it would take more than a decade until most of the old models have been replaced. When the first reliable LENR reactors will be available, we might see relatively soon some experimental cars. You won’t be able to get one from your dealer around the corner. But it will be interesting enough to observe and compare the different concepts: Steam cars, electric cars with a LENR-driven battery charger, or even more futuristic concepts, perhaps similar to the Papp engine. In any case, we will have no reason to complain about a lack of stuff for interesting discussions…

      • friendlyprogrammer

        Yes. It is likely a crash could occur, and this is why I think LENR is meeting some resistance. It is labeled a disruptive tech for a reason. I think it will prove positive however.

        • discussion with innovators I learned a different kind of disruption effect.

          most people imagine that the new technology will destroy the old market as it replace existing technology…

          in fact innovator know that it is much much more violent :
          the day people learn that LENR is real and can probably replace oil, nuke, wind, co2 quota, shale, smartgrid…
          they will instantly stop any investment in those technology, stop any buying of long lasting equipent…
          nobody will buy an expensive car, and expensive plane, and expensive powerplant.

          stupidly it will be time to invest in coal powerplant manufacturing, in old nearly exhausted oil fields, in old refineries, in old cargo, old planes…

          everybody will wait for the LENr plane.
          my advice is that all industries prepare a 3 phase plan, stating simultaneously, and delivering in sequence :
          – develop cheap/short-life variant of old tech devices
          – develop old-tech devices which can be retrofitted with LENR when available, and then develop the retrofit
          – develop full-blood LENR devices to normalize the market

          with that you can survive.
          It seems some companies prepare for that, but sure they don’t tell it not to look crazy.

          • Donk970

            You’re probably right, I remember how Microsoft used to kill off competitors in a particular market by announcing their own product even if they hadn’t even started work on it yet. People really would just sit and wait for years for MS to get the product done instead of buying something that was already on the market with the result being no more competition.

          • friendlyprogrammer

            Yes. I am tempted to buy a 200′ ship now with Engine trouble in hopes I can make it electric someday.

            I think one thing that will save us though is even though the technology is announced, it does not seem to sink in fast these days. Nobody cares about science until it affects them.

            I agree with that scenario though and I have recently said I am in favor of smog producing coal at the moment because LENR seems so close.

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      I believe natural gas and renewable energy will be hurt 1st.
      International chemical & fertilizer companies will benefit, but domestic companies might be hurt because the U.S. will lose its comparative advantage due to its cheap energy costs (the entire world will eventually enjoy a level playing field).

      Cheap labor countries will benefit once LENR is used to power container ships.

    • Stanny Demesmaker

      I really don’t see how the energy companies will survive in a period of 10/15 years. When the technology matures and you have a 30kW reactor which gives you continous heat/airco/electricity with a cartridge of a year. How can they make a profit with that perspective?

      Wasn’t there a article a week back that the Navy could create oil from seawater? With LENR this technology becomes immediately economical feasible for the rest of us.

      The stock prices of all the energy companies will crash, but it will take a while before LENR will start to fundamentally change the real economy.

      • bachcole

        The human beings who work and own energy companies will adapt and get involved in something else, like the distribution and maintenance of LENR+. That is how that works.

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          What if the secret silent investors at IH turned out to be the Koch Brothers?

          • bachcole

            Iggy, you are just too wonderful words. You are like a highly intelligent and witty version of my beloved dog Tango who is always doing naughty things but I love her so much that she gets away with it without too much chastisement. I certainly hope that the silent investors at IH turn out to be the Koch brother and Dingy Harry chokes on it. (:->) But it would be way too much to hope for. That would be like bringing down two birds with one stone or something like that, putting a hot coal in the shorts of the liberals and saving the world from the problems of fossil fuels. It would be a fantasy come true.

          • winebuff

            Those oxygen thieves!!!! Lets hope not

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            Their subsidiary, Georgia-Pacific, generates jillions of tons of oxygen. Don’t be hoodwinked by the liberal propaganda machine.

          • GreenWin

            Heh heh… Iggy, I notice PBS Science show “NOVA” gets tons of $$ from David Koch and ExxonMobile. Almost every Nova episode regardless of subject, mentions climate gloom & doom.

      • friendlyprogrammer

        You seem to be discussing Electrical Power. How would a 30kW electrical generator affect any fossil fuel company (aside from hybrid/electric cars)?

        If LENR powered Cars/Trucks/Trains/Planes then transportation costs would be cut in half (minimum). This means every nut, bolt, and widget in your television will not only be manufactured in a factory heated or AC by LENR, but every component will be reduced in price. This means if it cost them $300 to build a tv now they will be able to make it for $100 once LENR hits. How would cheaper everything not affect the economy?

        Even desalination would become very cheap and we might see Arizona become prime farmland with a few water pipelines.

        The governments normally run the type of energy companies you discuss (electrical). This means the governments will not have reason to maintain as heightened an infrastructure, but they can downsize and save billions as well. Unemployed Hydro workers can get jobs installing LENR.

        I think LENR will create a building boom where prosperity is forced upon even the poor to some extent. The rich will all want their 100″ monitors/televisions, but the poor won’t even remember 29″ screens. With more production and cheaper transportation food can become healthier and cheaper at the same time.

        Champagne to all..

      • Billy Jackson

        your under the assumption that people are going to magical get this device installed, serviced, and upkeep into the house all by itself. the energy companies will survive by going to the same type of service plan that a cellphone uses.

        as of right now the ecat still needs 1/3rd of its energy from the grid to be controllable so its not free from the energy companies yet. you still gotta pay the energy companies that cost.

        conversion alone wont be simple as plugging this in. you’ll need electricians for that.

        I think personally the energy companies will stay around.. you will see them become more profitable as the large overhead of bringing in train loads of coal or other fuels to power the power plant slowly diminish in use.

        you have a crazy amount of people that know NOTHING about electricity and thus will want a service to handle it for them for installation. maintenance. and upgrades. the energy companies will be the first adopters offering a premium to the makers of the E-CAT simply to reduce their overhead (maximize profits)

        (free e-cat for your home by signing a 2 year contract for 79.99 per month) coverage consists of, free installation, service, warranty, and product upgrades in the future.

        sound familiar?

        the future will be almost all mobile machines will be powered by electric because its cheaper than fossil fuel. trains, boats, airplanes, your car, the construction equipment down at the yard.. everything mobile will go electric, the only reason it hasn’t is the price of gas is cheaper AT THE MOMENT than electricity.

        i think the electric companies may see a BOOM in usage if they play their cards right.

        • Job001

          Na, one can get energy from a battery bank through an inverter and then put steady battery charge back in. No utility will be necessary except for us who don’t want to run our own utility if energy is cheap.

          Most likely controllability will not require more than 1/6 to 1/12 of the energy produced, that’s what research is for.

          Agree utilities may find usage goes up dramatically for new uses like mining landfills, refinery made fuel, producing water, indoor greenhouses, and other uses yet undreamed of.

      • winebuff

        I think what u will see is a reduction in oil prices (price shock) then stabilize back at normal pre lenr levels and then as lenr gains market share and affects the auto market (personally I think it will be hydrogen in cars) then prices will rise steeply with reduced exploration and demand. There are fixed costs to oil and they wont be met by a much smaller market.

        • Quiet Wine Guy

          This ignores the effect of slowing and actual reduction of total demand. High cost producers will not be able to compete with low cost producers like Saudi Arabia and high cost producers will be ‘pushed’ out of the market into bankruptcy or buyouts. The high fixed costs will leave the market.

          And, as has been mentioned, the Military’s new technology of synthesizing oil from sea water will be impacted by the dramatic change in cost of energy, i.e., LENR energy. The cost of synthesizing ‘carbon neutral’ oil will drop materially from the current low end estimate of $3/gallon.

          The overall point being: fixed costs will leave the market and low costs producers will stay in the market as long as their reserves last.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      If an Ecat was released coupled with a generator and everything was able to fit into the back of a 5 ton truck… I think we would see mass research into scaling it down for autos.
      Even if it lost 75% of its power during conversion and another 75% if we expanded this to a hydrogen conversion truck it would still be far cheaper than gas. Either way… An Electric or hydrogen truck running on Nickel would start an auto fuel race.

      I guess Im disagreeing with your timeline. 20-30 years in an information age is more than double what I would guess.

      I am not sure how oil would react to LENR. I thought it would not pose a problem, but LENR seems to have many artificial obstacles such as patent rejections. It is interesting how completely LENR seems to be ignored. This article shows hope is on the horizon.

      Thanks Neanderthal.

      • BuildItNow

        Alainco “work change” is key to understanding how fast the transition to LENR could occur. Consider if there is even a mild doubt in the minds of people interested in installing solar on their roof, putting in a fracking well, investing in wind power, building a new power plant, could not the doubt “put off doing more work” until LENR is evaluated?

        Could there be a lot of people looking for work that once worked for all the businesses put “now” on hold while LENR is evaluated?
        Could these people looking for work, jump at the new opportunity, LENR conversion of vehicles, power plants, home units, etc. etc. ?

        How many people could this be?
        How fast will the innovation be, I’ve read that 1 year after the Wright Brothers flew over Paris, it was estimated millions were working on aircraft, and, that’s the early 1900, how many would work on LENR today?

        My conclusion is that, when / if LENR breaks into the public consciousness as real, all bets are off as to how fast the transition will be.

        20 years to convert existing cars could be very pessimistic.

        • my vision is that the new LENr cars will be developed in total panic, will be unreliable, but all unreliable… then they will be improved in 20 years…

          • friendlyprogrammer

            I think they will simply be trailers pulled behind electric cars in the beginning or trailers that can convert LENR to ELECTRIC to HYDROGEN.

            I do not envision steam powered cars for at least a decade, but Electric cars already have the abilities, just not the size. Nobody will want a tiny electric car. They will want a huge electric motorhome.

            My thoughts on the future of this are all over the place, but in a concise place here.

            http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/02/12/a-vision-of-a-cold-fusion-future-how-to-adapt-to-abundance/

        • friendlyprogrammer

          Yes. I was arguing against the 20-30 year timeline in my post. I think once this goes mainstream people will be driving Electric Cars powered by LENR in 5 years. I also think anybody driving a new gas car will have an on board hydrogen plant (LENR Powered) to fuel their tank.

          I predicted a LENR vehicle within 10 years back in 2011. That gives me another 7 years..

          I have also said the LENR devices look less complicated than dollar store flashlights and everyone displaced from the Solar/Wind industries (and NEWENRGYTIMES WEBSITE Narf!) will be making LENR devices in their basements. I have predicted this will be the most widely copied device in history and the patent owners would be wise simply to make authenticating stickers for recognized units.

    • to what you say I will add that the worst enemy of LENr, beside greenergies, CO2 companies, Climate searchers, will be the electric grid workers union and the governments who will try to save their electors from a work change…

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    Rossi has the edge but doesn’t own the entire field of LENR. If IH drags its feet, other companies will prevail. Japan & Korea are not beholding to Big Energy.

  • Andrew

    What I’d like to know is what’s the general feel between scientists on the miss treatment cold fusion received? I know that there was problems replicating and what not but P&F shouldn’t have been treated the way they were.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Giordano Bruno was burned at the stake for suggesting the Sun was a star (which it is). History will owe Pons/Fleischmann an apology for sure. The eagerness of scientist wanting to Profit from this is also staggering. I think I would be inclined to give this to the world and hope I get a middle school named “friendlyprogrammer”.

      • Loni Hull

        My girlfriend and I are going to establish a school in Southeast Asia (a long-time dream of hers). I think we’ll call it Friendlyprogrammer Polytechnic Institute just to keep people guessing.

        • friendlyprogrammer

          Perfect! Now I don’t have to invent LENR. TY

  • Andrew

    What I’d like to know is what’s the general feel between scientists on the miss treatment cold fusion received? I know that there was problems replicating and what not but P&F shouldn’t have been treated the way they were.

  • Ophelia Rump

    There will be a race to own all the nickle on the planet. Watch the price.

    Even if there is enough to power the planet for a billion years, if you can inflate the price by blocking the supply, you can control the power supply of the world, and own a percent of every profit on the planet.

    • my quick computation say that to power the planet we need % of yearly nickel production… but maybe the nickel trader will bet on mainstream belief…

      note that palladium is 2 years top price… probably not related…

      • US_Citizen71

        I believe automotive catalytic converters are the reason for the high price of palladium currently. As more countries try to clean up their air, while at the same time attempt to increase their standard of living by creating and maintaining more roads more catalytic converters are manufactured.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Nickel is the fifth most common element on the planet. LENR could exist for hundreds of years and not affect nickel prices.

      Based on some guesstimates we have seen, a pound of Nickel would be equal to over 2200 barrels of oil, and likely to improve over time.

      Better to invest in a company that produces generators or something. Cornering the Nickel market would be pointless, and make broke the richest of corporations.

    • Sanjeev

      My prediction is exactly opposite. Nickel prices, and prices of everything else will go down, very gradually, as the lenr tech rises. May take 15-20 years.

      You can see that there is no race to own all the Silicon on the planet, which is the main element in all the electronics we use. Like Nickel, its too abundant and is needed in a minute quantity.
      The rise of electronics has made a lot of people moderately rich rather than making a handful of people filthy rich and powerful. The same can happen with lenr.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        “Prices of everything else will go down, very gradually, as the lenr tech rises.”

        ‘cept for fixed supply stuff like real estate.
        With self-sufficiency, who would want to live in a city?

        • Sanjeev

          I predict the real estate will also go down. Land will cost dirt, which it is actually. There will be no compulsion to live in pigeon boxes in crowded tiny areas. Even bottom of the ocean will do. There will be no desert regions. Mountains will not be a problem. Antarctica will get populated. Of course, it all can take time, like 100-200 years.

  • Ophelia Rump

    There will be a race to own all the nickle on the planet. Watch the price.

    Even if there is enough to power the planet for a billion years, if you can inflate the price by blocking the supply, you can control the power supply of the world, and own a percent of every profit on the planet.

    • my quick computation say that to power the planet we need % of yearly nickel production… but maybe the nickel trader will bet on mainstream belief…

      note that palladium is 2 years top price… probably not related…

      • US_Citizen71

        I believe automotive catalytic converters are the reason for the high price of palladium currently. As more countries try to clean up their air, while at the same time attempt to increase their standard of living by creating and maintaining more roads more catalytic converters are manufactured.

      • Bobcat

        Probably more a result of the Russian intervention in Ukraine Alain

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Nickel is the fifth most common element on the planet. LENR could exist for hundreds of years and not affect nickel prices.

      Based on some guesstimates we have seen, a pound of Nickel would be equal to over 2200 barrels of oil, and likely to improve over time.

      Better to invest in a company that produces generators or something. Cornering the Nickel market would be pointless, and make broke the richest of corporations.

    • Sanjeev

      My prediction is exactly opposite. Nickel prices, and prices of everything else will go down, very gradually, as the lenr tech rises. May take 15-20 years.

      You can see that there is no race to own all the Silicon on the planet, which is the main element in all the electronics we use. Like Nickel, its too abundant and is needed in a minute quantity.
      The rise of electronics has made a lot of people moderately rich rather than making a handful of people filthy rich and powerful. The same can happen with lenr.

      • bachcole

        I think that everyone is doing better thanks to the rise of electronics, but you are right, everyone is not absurdly and filthy rich thanks to electronics. Just a few. But unless governments pass laws saying that LENR must centralized, I think that the effect will be more level with LENR. Even the Inuit will benefit.

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        “Prices of everything else will go down, very gradually, as the lenr tech rises.”

        ‘cept for fixed supply stuff like real estate.
        With self-sufficiency, who would want to live in a city?

        • Sanjeev

          I predict the real estate will also go down. Land will cost dirt, which it is actually. There will be no compulsion to live in pigeon boxes in crowded tiny areas. Even bottom of the ocean will do. There will be no desert regions. Mountains will not be a problem. Antarctica will get populated. Of course, it all can take time, like 100-200 years.

  • orsobubu

    LENRs technologies could considerably lower the profit margin of energy companies. This, because of the fewer people needed to be put at work, with consequently smaller extracted surplus value. Fall of the profit sage is a regularity in any capitalistic system. This process is not automatically balanced by increases in other production areas, see, i.e., what extensive automation made to the automotive industry, relatively to the raise of the new branch of computer technologies in the ’80s. Classic countermeasures represented by tariffs, taxes, cartels, trusts, protectionism, etc are detrimental for functionality or a market society, but their are the reality of current state-capitalism and imperialistic political economy. As always, all the losses of the capital’s reproduction scheme are charged on
    workers’ shoulders, while corporations and bureaucratic parasites
    privatize the profits, but in the particular phase of production overcapacity, diminishing profits, unemployment, inflation or deflation, often the outcome in history are catastrophic crisis, fascism and wars. So my suggestion is to keep constantly active your critics on the economic and political system, more then on specific technologic issues, because these depends on those. Material interests -exchange value, or money – and not the user value in the general interests of people, will surely dictate the way LENRs wil be used – if proved real – in peace and in war.

  • drjohngalan

    The vast majority of people are completely unaware of the demolition job done on Fleischmann and Pons in 1989. If they remember it at all, they think of cold fusion as junk science.

    Since 1989, there has been negligible doubt in my mind that cold fusion is a real phenomenon. The arguments used against it were, for example: bad measurements (by one of the top electrochemists in the world at the time?); it’s too good to be true (hardly science!); it goes against “established” theory (which do you choose if observations and theory disagree?); it cannot always be replicated (it only needs one independent replication to scotch malpractice or fraud). Once it had been replicated (that happened in 1989), observations of excess heat were there, albeit kept well under wraps (including MIT’s manipulated data and the NASA paper which found no neutrons, but did find excess heat).

    There is no doubt in my mind that governments and big business have been well aware of what’s going on in this field for a long time now. Look at the patent situation in the USA – still a problem. I believe it is a good thing that small enterprises are developing LENR products. My fear is that there are plans in place to control its impact on the world so as not to upset the status quo. All of the companies currently involved could be bought out with loose change.

    All we can do is to hope that somewhere there is a brave
    enough main stream journalist who is prepared to tell this story. In my view, it is a scandal of the highest
    order that this technology has been stifled for so long (and could continue to
    be so).

    • The demolution work is well described by Beaudette in his book:

      http://iccf9.global.tsinghua.edu.cn/lenr%20home%20page/acrobat/BeaudetteCexcessheat.pdf

      It was mostly inability to admit they were wrong when good solid replication were finished few years after.

      “Unfortunately, physicists did not generally claim expertise in calorimetry, the measurement of calories of heat energy. Nor did they countenance clever chemists declaring hypotheses about nuclear physics. Their outspoken commentary largely ignored the heat measurements along with the offer of an hypothesis about unknown nuclear processes. They did not acquaint themselves with the laboratory procedures that produced anomalous heat data. These attitudes held firm throughout the first decade, causing a sustained controversy.

      The upshot of this conflict was that the scientific community failed to give anomalous heat the evaluation that was its due. Scientists of orthodox views, in the first six years of this episode, produced only four critical reviews of the two chemists’ calorimetry work. The first report came in 1989 (N. S. Lewis). It dismissed the Utah claim for anomalous power on grounds of faulty laboratory technique. A second review was produced in 1991 (W. N. Hansen) that strongly supported the claim. It was based on an independent analysis of cell data that was provided by the two chemists. An extensive review completed in 1992 (R. H. Wilson) was highly critical though not conclusive. But it did recognize the existence of anomalous power, which carried the implication that the Lewis dismissal was mistaken. A fourth review was produced in 1994 (D. R. O. Morrison) which was itself unsatisfactory. It was rebutted strongly to the point of dismissal and correctly in my view. No defense was offered against the rebuttal. During those first six years, the community of orthodox scientists produced no report of a flaw in the heat measurements that was subsequently sustained by other reports.

      The community of scientists at large never saw or knew about this minimalist critique of the claim. It was buried in the avalanche of skepticism that issued forth in the first three months. This skepticism was buttressed by the failure of the two chemists’ nuclear measurements, the lack of a theoretical understanding of how their claim could work, a mistaken concern with the number of failed experiments, a wholly unrealistic expectation of the time and resource the evaluation would need, and the substantial ad hominem attacks on them. However, their original claim of measurement of the anomalous power remained unscathed during all of this furor. A decade later, it was not generally realized that this claim remained essentially unevaluated by the scientific community. Confusion necessarily arose when the skeptics refused without argument to recognize the heat measurement and its corresponding hypothesis of a nuclear source. As a consequence, the story of the excess heat phenomenon has never been told.

      you can add to that the inability for some outspoken critics to admit they were simply incompetent making them thus dishonest.

      well described by Jed

      http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusion.pdf#page=4

  • drjohngalan

    The vast majority of people are completely unaware of the demolition job done on Fleischmann and Pons in 1989. If they remember it at all, they think of cold fusion as junk science.

    Since 1989, there has been negligible doubt in my mind that cold fusion is a real phenomenon. The arguments used against it were, for example: bad measurements (by one of the top electrochemists in the world at the time?); it’s too good to be true (hardly science!); it goes against “established” theory (which do you choose if observations and theory disagree?); it cannot always be replicated (it only needs one independent replication to scotch malpractice or fraud). Once it had been replicated (that happened in 1989), observations of excess heat were there, albeit kept well under wraps (including MIT’s manipulated data and the NASA paper which found no neutrons, but did find excess heat).

    There is no doubt in my mind that governments and big business have been well aware of what’s going on in this field for a long time now. Look at the patent situation in the USA – still a problem. I believe it is a good thing that small enterprises are developing LENR products. My fear is that there are plans in place to control its impact on the world so as not to upset the status quo. All of the companies currently involved could be bought out with loose change.

    All we can do is to hope that somewhere there is a brave
    enough main stream journalist who is prepared to tell this story. In my view, it is a scandal of the highest
    order that this technology has been stifled for so long (and could continue to
    be so).

    • bachcole

      Dr. John, I just love your reasons for believing since 1989 that cold fusion is real, and not one of those reasons is based upon hard science, just like me. Like, how could accomplished scientists make measurement errors? It just doesn’t make any sense. Every one of your reasons is not “scientific”, but every one is very well reasoned. Not all epistemology is science.

      However, a private company cannot be bought out unless it is voluntary, and I guarantee that Rossi/Darden/Vaughn won’t be selling out for any reason whatsoever, ever, until perhaps their grandchildrens’ grandchildren die.

      • GreenWin

        Roger, private companies are bought out all the time. That’s exactly what VC money does – buy 51% in exchange for funding development. All that’s needed is the majority shareholder to sell his/her shares.

        • bachcole

          But it still has to be voluntary for those holding the majority of the shares. If only 12 people are shareholders, and they were smart enough to “buy” Rossi in the first place, I doubt that they are going to be so stupid as to sell the greatest business opportunity in the history of the world. I would live in my car before I would sell my shares of Industrial Heat.

          • GreenWin

            What kinda car you talking about? Those vans with roll out canopy can be comfortable. On a beach in Florida. 🙂

      • drjohngalan

        Every one of your reasons is not “scientific”:

        “Accomplished scientists making measurement errors?” (which they all do from time to time) is very different from five years’ careful investigation resulting in an announcement which they knew would have a profound reaction. Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons were as sure as anyone could be that their measurements of excess heat were correct. That provides, for me, the distinction between justified belief and opinion regarding their measurements.

        Too good to be true – as I said in my post, hardly science.

        Which part of “it goes against ‘established’ theory”, is not scientific? Surely, the very essence of science is that observations which contradict a theory mean the theory is wrong (unless you include the post-modern version favoured by the climate scientists).

        On replication, what is the issue here? Others observed excess heat, including MIT and NASA who were both strongly sceptical. Not reproducible 100% of the time is different from not replicable.

        • what you say is just common sense.
          so evident that rational educated people when seeing the skepticism of mainstream,fall in incredulity, estimating that it have to be more complicated than clear unscientific mind and evident incompetence in calorimetry. in fact it is only that…

          It is funny to see that both Nature/Science editors, nuclear physicist and crackpot physicist of alternative energy focus on theory so much, while they neglect experimental evidence that are overwhelming, and the incompetence and dishonesty of critics so visible.

          incredible

        • bachcole

          Dr. John, I am pretty sure that you are misunderstanding me.

          If I accept the opinions of many scientists, that is not scientific. That would be “social” of me. I am using my social skills to discern that it is unlikely that a bunch of scientists from different countries would all be mistaken or corrupt.

          If I work out the formulas for how to overcome the Coulomb barrier or some other scientific or mathematical calculation, that would be “scientific” of me. I am not capable of working out the formulas and I don’t really want to be bothered with it.

          So, my approach has been entirely “social” by my definition. And I see that in your approach.

    • The demolution work is well described by Beaudette in his book:

      http://iccf9.global.tsinghua.edu.cn/lenr%20home%20page/acrobat/BeaudetteCexcessheat.pdf

      It was mostly inability to admit they were wrong when good solid replication were finished few years after.

      “Unfortunately, physicists did not generally claim expertise in calorimetry, the measurement of calories of heat energy. Nor did they countenance clever chemists declaring hypotheses about nuclear physics. Their outspoken commentary largely ignored the heat measurements along with the offer of an hypothesis about unknown nuclear processes. They did not acquaint themselves with the laboratory procedures that produced anomalous heat data. These attitudes held firm throughout the first decade, causing a sustained controversy.

      The upshot of this conflict was that the scientific community failed to give anomalous heat the evaluation that was its due. Scientists of orthodox views, in the first six years of this episode, produced only four critical reviews of the two chemists’ calorimetry work. The first report came in 1989 (N. S. Lewis). It dismissed the Utah claim for anomalous power on grounds of faulty laboratory technique. A second review was produced in 1991 (W. N. Hansen) that strongly supported the claim. It was based on an independent analysis of cell data that was provided by the two chemists. An extensive review completed in 1992 (R. H. Wilson) was highly critical though not conclusive. But it did recognize the existence of anomalous power, which carried the implication that the Lewis dismissal was mistaken. A fourth review was produced in 1994 (D. R. O. Morrison) which was itself unsatisfactory. It was rebutted strongly to the point of dismissal and correctly in my view. No defense was offered against the rebuttal. During those first six years, the community of orthodox scientists produced no report of a flaw in the heat measurements that was subsequently sustained by other reports.

      The community of scientists at large never saw or knew about this minimalist critique of the claim. It was buried in the avalanche of skepticism that issued forth in the first three months. This skepticism was buttressed by the failure of the two chemists’ nuclear measurements, the lack of a theoretical understanding of how their claim could work, a mistaken concern with the number of failed experiments, a wholly unrealistic expectation of the time and resource the evaluation would need, and the substantial ad hominem attacks on them. However, their original claim of measurement of the anomalous power remained unscathed during all of this furor. A decade later, it was not generally realized that this claim remained essentially unevaluated by the scientific community. Confusion necessarily arose when the skeptics refused without argument to recognize the heat measurement and its corresponding hypothesis of a nuclear source. As a consequence, the story of the excess heat phenomenon has never been told.

      you can add to that the inability for some outspoken critics to admit they were simply incompetent making them thus dishonest.

      well described by Jed

      http://www.lenr-canr.org/acrobat/RothwellJcoldfusion.pdf#page=4

  • Iggy Dalrymple

    What if the secret silent investors at IH turned out to be the Koch Brothers?

    • winebuff

      Those oxygen thieves!!!! Lets hope not

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        Their subsidiary, Georgia-Pacific, generates jillions of tons of oxygen. Don’t be hoodwinked by the liberal propaganda machine.

    • GreenWin

      Heh heh… Iggy, I notice PBS Science show “NOVA” gets tons of $$ from David Koch and ExxonMobile. Almost every Nova episode regardless of subject, mentions climate gloom & doom.

  • meme007

    Many forget that most of the price of oil is created by market speculation. Once an alternative energy source is introduced the price of oil will plummet. Speculator will permanently leave the game and oil prices may recover slightly but never come anywhere near current prices. I would guess prices to settle in 1980’s level.

    • US_Citizen71

      They won’t leave until they have made their money shorting options first. ; )

    • bachcole

      I doubt it. Speculators can only make the market go up and down. They can’t force prices up permanently because there is always someone who will try to short the price and competition forces the price to the very lowest that people can tolerate without going out of business.

  • Neanderthal

    If this is of any interest but Control theorist will need to revise a new and ultra fast algorithm in the higher derivatives for mastery of this dragon. 🙂

    • jonnyb

      Are the differential equations linear or non-linear? Have you cracked the stability issues, or it the dragon producing flames?

      • Neanderthal

        Pertubation theory is the key. However they have to be fast and dynamic.

        • jonnyb

          Does the state of matter change at any time during the process, if so does the feedback system need to alter to take account of this. What are the reference inputs and outputs or are you not allow to say.

          • Neanderthal

            Jonnyb you are astute. I am not allowed to disclose this any longer. Btw to thse that question my sincerity. I work in a establishment that specialise in chemistry and we are fortunate to have at our disposal the instrumentation and computational to be well equipped to tame this. However. The many tails of the dragon is metaphorical.
            Japan coincidentally is doing a dandy job.I can not mention names or name.Storms expression is in the classical sense.

          • Neanderthal

            Field emission .. We arrived at one of the tails but to our dismay we were beaten.
            RoutRKphenomena.pdf. We decided to go for the head of the dragon.Lenr is only the beginning. If i speak in riddles do not be alarmed. Theirs a valid reason. You deserve to know the mechanisms involved. I will happy reveal the tails of lenr. The main dragon I will not disclose. One other gem. The Nobel prize has a nice ring to it dont you think but who really takes credit.The practitioner or theorist or both.I may add We are not interested in excess heat.That is sigma 5.but the head. this is my last post

          • Frank Acland
          • Quiet Wine Guy

            Frank,

            can you explain why Neanderthal is being so obscure so as to leave us feeling obtuse or slow witted?

          • Frank Acland

            Sorry, QWG, I can’t help — I’m trying to understand it myself!

          • Quiet Wine Guy

            This is one of the challenges of anonymous comments coming from someone who does not have a history here.

          • Exchanges like this make me leery. We’re to believe an advanced chemist/quantum expert has been studying LENR+, understands it to be amazing to the 6th power of which only one aspect is excess heat, and has time to drop some obtuse hints about it all.

            And then clams up and leaves.

            Bored PhD wanting to share his excitement about LENR or teenage troll seeing how gullible we are? I guess we’ll never know.

          • Quiet Wine Guy

            Being conservative, I think the style of his communication only suggests that his comments should be ignored as they don’t really come together to hold any water. They only intimate, triggering the emotion of hope.

          • I agree. It doesn’t add up for me either. The motivation, attitude, claims, coyness, sudden need to disappear, possible sockpuppet support, riddles, spelling… lots of red flags.

          • His comments remind me of someone calling himself ‘Chan’, who posted a series of CF replication claims in 2011. The style was excitable, written in poor English, and full of scientific-sounding terminology and a number of technical ‘holes’.

            I found a lengthy comment I made about Chan’s claims at the time, still online:

            http://e-catsite.com/2011/12/28/plan-x-i-want-my-future-back/

          • GreenWin

            An excellent disassembly of the Chan rants, Peter. Interesting that the “explosive” meme propped up recently with Brian Ahern claiming his HV power supply blew a door off his house… (or the like.) Yet we have no hard evidence of anything more than Rossi’s melted reactors and H2 hazards (SRI accident.)

          • jonnyb

            I’m surprised Neanderthal has been able to say so much, just confirmed my hope that the U.K. has been taking this seriously, Expect miracles from this bunch, if it is who I think it is then they are cleaver bunny’s however normally very secretive by law.

          • jonnyb

            Sounds fun, could you say if it is a new field of science or within the established Quantum world, Is the Quantum world going to be turned on it’s head, hope you can say. Is Santilli on the correct path? Then I will read his papers.

          • Frost*

            Neanderthal,

            I’m, going to make a guess that English is not your first language and that you work at the chemistry dept of Imperial College London.

        • Neanderthal

          Talbot Chubb in one the right path however he would need to add a term that would have term for a different term that like richardson law.Field electron emission has an very important direction in this arrea

          • Neanderthal

            I apologise for the incoherence in my typing. Talbot Chubb is going in the correct direction the term in his hamilonian should be similar to the correctional term in the Richardson law.Field electron emission is also an area that would suffice to complete the theory

          • Ophelia Rump

            Were Metropolis adjusted Langevin and Hamiltonian Monte Carlo sampling methods applied to the Riemann manifold to resolve the shortcomings of existing Monte Carlo algorithms?

      • Edmund storms propose a simple model of LENR+ reactor

        http://lenr-canr.org/acrobat/StormsEexplaining.pdf

        Power generated = K*[X*A*C*exp(-B/RT)]

        X = a value determined by which hydrogen isotope is reacting. If mostly deuterium is present, this number will be large. If mostly protium is used, the number will be small and variable, with a gradual increase as deuterium forms and fuses with either p or other d. (See Table 1 on previous page,)

        A = number of NAE. The greater the number of sites in which the fusion reaction can occur, the faster energy can be generated.

        C = concentration of hydrogen isotope in the material surrounding the NAE. This value depends on the chemical characteristics of the surrounding material, temperature, applied hydrogen activity, and rate at which the hydrogen can enter the material through the surface. Use of surface activation, ion bombardment, and high pressure (activity) will increase the concentration.

        B = energy required to move hydrogen within the material. Several different conditions can be used to move hydrogen ions. This equation is based on the movement being enhanced by temperature as a driver for diffusion. Concentration gradients or application of an electric field will increase the rate of movement, thereby increasing power production by making the hydrogen more available to the NAE.[28, 29]

        T = temperature (K) of the material surrounding the NAE.

        K= constant used to resolve the measurement units for the different variables.

        R= gas constant

        mostly T is Rossi variable, but X,A,B,C can evolve with time and maybe be controlled.

        my former courses have taught me how to control that, but since I never practiced in the industry, there is probably better methods today.

        my method would be an adaptative MPC if the system is not too chaotic… or simpler and quickly adaptative if too complex. anyway a professional can do a better job than me just by looking at the model.

    • LCD

      Who is Neanderthal? Why do we believe him/her? No disrespect intended.

      • jonnyb

        Who knows but I have my suspicions of where he or she works, and if so then believe. My earlier post saying it seemed to go missing. Don’t forget Neanderthals had very big brains and where probably very very intelligent.

        • Iggy Dalrymple
        • GreenWin

          Believe why? Neanderthals clearly are not fluent in English. And perturbation theory is math hocus-pocus to approximate answers. Perturbation experts live in abandoned vehicles on riverbanks, according to combobulation theory.

          • Ophelia Rump

            Can you track that on Google Maps?

            I bet they are very perturbed about that!

          • GreenWin

            Neander Valley, Neandertal Reserve, alongside the Düssel River. Site preferred by hermitic mathematicians and Milli Vanilli outcasts:
            http://bit.ly/1neCr3E

          • jonnyb

            It will be blanked off!!!

          • Ophelia Rump

            .

          • jonnyb

            In my opinion the perturbation only applies to the controlling feedback loop. An iterative process? Speed is of essence, not absolute accuracy? maybe prediction? I suspect that the drive is RF (or modulated electron field), if Rf then you have frequency, amplitude and phase. However if there is a resonance property then you could alter the fundamental and harmonics, a form of spread spectrum. I was a bit disapointed when Neanderthal said they were not interested in excess heat, but also excited as there is more to come. Sorry I am posting as a guest as I can’t get remember my password ECW is welcome to send me it.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Iterative (feedback) processes tend to become chaotic. Before they do that, they often exhibit specific oscillation patterns. Maybe Rossi must meet exactly that small zone between ‘controlled’ and ‘chaotic’ behavior in order to maintain the operation.

          • jonnyb

            Maybe that is why it has been so difficult to control, and why we are still waiting? So I suspect the DIY model is out of the question for now

          • Perhaps a fast-response stimulation such as an oscillatimg EM field can also be used to dampen such oscillations (phonons?) by resonating towards the lower end of the range? I still have problems with the idea of applying more heat to control output.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            My speculative guess is that oscillations resulting from a feedback could be essential for the reaction. Something like a Jimi-Hendrix-effect. Maybe the required frequencies are very high (in the Terahertz-range), so that you cannot produce them by ordinary means. Rossi’s unknown internal device could indeed be necessary for damping them if they tend to go out of control.

          • GreenWin

            Johnny, this is why Phased Locked Loop was introduced to FM radio.

          • jonnyb

            Similar but much more complex if you believe Neanderthal. The iteration process would be to arrive at the feedback result and not an iterative feedback system. PLL are fairly simple compared to what Neanderthal is suggesting, if only it were that simple.

          • Quiet Wine Guy

            Your answer about passwords stretches my desire to respond politely.

            The Disqus comment software has a simple password retrieval/reset function, a generic function that is universal to all internet websites that I have used. Your claim of inability is too much for me.

      • bachcole

        I am 3% Neanderthal. Does that count? And not everyone is.

      • Neanderthal has been around for a long time.

  • ok, ok, désolé de massacrer autant l’anglais tous les jours.

  • LukeDC

    I have alternative solidworks designs for Datacentre deployments that integrate a LENR heat source. The implementation will be up to the fridgies & sparkies but none the less the designs are ready to go. We have a patent app ready in the wings as well….

    • Ophelia Rump

      You want to heat all those cold cold computers in datacenters?

      I would market test that idea before going public!

      • LukeDC

        http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator
        if the efficiencies of the hot cat are high enough it could potentially be used for bi or tri gen to take the whole show offline.

        • Ophelia Rump

          Thermo-electric spot conversion would return the existing heat as power, without dumping massive quantities of additional heat into the environment.

          Do you want to save the whales by canning them, thereby giving them longer shelf lives?

          • LukeDC

            Excess heat is dumped to ground, or is piped locally in the form of hot water to industry.

          • Ophelia Rump

            LENR to heat at site for co-generation, electricity pumped to data-centers, heat converted to electricity and no dumping. Get it? Got it? Good.
            The world has enough wrong already. Take pride in doing things right.

            Every resource has it’s limits, except stupid, that appears to be limitless.

          • LukeDC

            What’s a data-center?

          • Ophelia Rump

            The mid point between two pieces of data. DUH.

  • LukeDC

    I have alternative solidworks designs for Datacentre deployments that integrate a LENR heat source. The implementation will be up to the fridgies & sparkies but none the less the designs are ready to go. We have a patent app ready in the wings as well….

    • Ophelia Rump

      You want to heat all those cold cold computers in datacenters?

      I would market test that idea before going public!

      • LukeDC

        http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Absorption_refrigerator
        if the efficiencies of the hot cat are high enough it could potentially be used for bi or tri gen to take the whole show offline.

        • Ophelia Rump

          Thermo-electric spot conversion would return the existing heat as power, without dumping massive quantities of additional heat into the environment.

          Do you also want to save the whales by canning them, thereby giving them longer shelf lives?

          • LukeDC

            Excess heat is dumped to ground, or is piped locally in the form of hot water to industry.

          • Ophelia Rump

            LENR to heat at site for co-generation, electricity pumped to data-centers, heat converted to electricity and no dumping. Get it? Got it? Good.
            The world has enough wrong already. Take pride in doing things right.

            Every resource has it’s limits.

          • LukeDC

            What’s a data-center?

          • Ophelia Rump

            The mid point between two pieces of data.

  • bachcole

    I just realized that it is a big hassle for society to decide whether it is going to go with gasoline or electric or hydrogen or whatever, because there has to be a source. But with LENR+, it won’t matter. You want an LENR+ to electric, oh, those are over there. You want an LENR+ to steam, oh, those are over there. There won’t be this big worry that if you get out of step you will be caught short with 8 track when everyone else is switching to CDs, or whatever.

  • Kola

    Years pass and not one product brought to market … Not even a boiler for a steam engine.

    • The technology has only become commercially viable in the past 3 years when Rossi was able to get a handle on the E-Cat temperature and control. In between a newly discovered viable technology and a product there are many barriers. These include R&D, prototype development, long term reliability testing, industrial certifications and verification, business formation/expansion — and seeking capital to support all the above.

      It is typical for start-ups to take many years to get a product to market — and that’s for well understood stuff like processors and software.

      Rossi is clearly following the path to a commercial product — found a partner, got some money to accelerate R&D, created and tested prototypes, and entered long term product reliability testing in the Fall of 2013. For which we all currently await the results.

    • Yo Hobie

      I completely agree with you Kola. 40+ years and billions of dollars spent and not one hot fusion product brought to market!

      • Robyn Wyrick

        Well, that has to be Rossi’s fault too.

        Face it: Rossi hasn’t brought even one – not even one world-changing-save-the-planet-free-power-for-everyone-revolutionary-energy-system to my personal basement.

        Not even one.

        He must be a fraud. (He also caused the 2008 financial melt-down.)

    • Ophelia Rump

      Sigh.

      • bachcole

        I can’t keep up. I skip over the heavy calculations and the DIY LENR+ at home comments.

        • Ophelia Rump

          Lol, I am pretty sure that some of these recent comments are just word echos from titles of research papers key word searched. Nonsense phrases designed to impress.

          Which is exactly how I replied to that one by Neanderthal.
          A challenge which he did not step up to. Had he been legitimate I would have expected to be either caught or dragged a level deeper.

          To each in kind.

          Beware BS artists trying to give the impression of intellectual supremacy.

          • Neanderthal

            I will take your test Ophelia. If need be I will derive those correctional terms step by step I am speaking about the Monte Carlos sampling. A foot note you are in the wrong ball park. Clue number one do not think about discrete methods. Let me see your prowess. Look at all the piece s that I gave. You should be able from there to catch my drift. And run the simulation in Chemworks. You seem to be very sharp 😉
            I had to reply.
            P.s. I am not a fraud

          • jonnyb

            Don’t worry Neanderthal it sounds like your organisation may be able to produce some new papers on the subject soon, maybe then you can come back at tell them ‘I told you so’ It is pretty obvious that you know quite a bit about the subject, more that most of us. Genuine as you can get in my mind.

          • Neanderthal

            We are working in one direction in our theoretical proof. You may or may not be aware that this is a multi body problem. I can not speak for rossi in his upcomingTheoretical proof. But it does seem plausibe that he is going in the realms of the Quantum ring theory.Which I support strongly. Yes Chubbs mechanism is only half the story. This is not a small issue but moreso a unification mechanism in our intinsic laws. Our Theory brings a concept of a term/s that lie in in the complex frequency domain it requires a beautiful term that is a modular function already discovered by an indian mathematician. Any Mathematical physicist can verify our publications for its sincerity when it is released .The dragon has a beautiful side.

          • I thought you couldn’t say any more.

            I guess jonnyb has your 6 though so it’s safe to come back in the water.

          • jonnyb

            I’m just very interested in the whole subject, if I disbelieved every positive thing said on this site I would have left long ago. Open mind and the realisation that others know so much more about this than I do, as I’m just a washed up electronics engineer, who has left the industry as the work coming my way was too boring.

          • Neanderthal

            We will submit our publications to the big journals in the UK. Around about July time frame. However we have competition in Japan. Who are a very big player. There they may beat us to it. The person in Storms lecture who was very vocal at the end. We are keeping close eyes on this person.

          • jonnyb

            The best of luck to you and your team

          • Now this I can grok. You have committed to something specific: publication ~July.

            Given all the secrets being kept by all the players in LENR my tolerance for anyone who comes along and hints at wonderful marvelous things without being specific is zero. Thanks you for being specific.

            More specifics are welcome.

          • jonnyb

            Can you tell us when and where the publications will be published?

    • Gerrit

      Engineering reliable devices which utilize effects not yet fully described in scientific literature might well take just a bit longer than flinging together another novelty digital gadget.

    • heath

      Um…something that people have witnessed overheating to thousands of degrees in a runaway reaction–I would want them to make sure the control system on that thing to be flawless.

  • Steve H

    After reading most of the comments here – I will add my prediction:-

    The big energy companies of the future will be forward thinking technology companies who are willing to take a risk.

    • Neanderthal

      I am positive that this will happen.The first that invest will cause an avalanche effect. That will destabilise the market for other alternative green energies. However the oscillatory period should come to an equilibrium. I say the October to November time frame when you will hear the giants stirring. Btw there is considerable interests in other departments around the UK not just science.

  • Steve H

    After reading most of the comments here – I will add my prediction:-

    The big energy companies of the future will be forward thinking technology companies who are willing to take a risk.

    • Neanderthal

      I am positive that this will happen.The first that invest will cause an avalanche effect. That will destabilise the market for other alternative green energies. However the oscillatory period should come to an equilibrium. I say the October to November time frame when you will hear the giants stirring. Btw there is considerable interests in other departments around the UK not just science.

  • hunfgerh
    • Andreas Moraitis

      Interesting, I did not know that such a request had been addressed do the German Kanzleramt. However, I’m not surprised about the answer. They are totally dependent on mainstream science. No publication in Nature or Science – no public funding. That would be no problem if private persons or companies were allowed to develop their own technology. As you say in your comment on the same site, the German Atomic Energy Act forbids it. But are you really sure that it is applicable to LENR reactors? Look at the definition of “Kernbrennstoffe” in §2(1):

      http://www.buzer.de/s1.htm?g=AtG&a=1,2

      They are only talking about the usual isotopes of plutonium and uranium. Furthermore, they mention substances that can be used to “maintain a chain reaction”. Nothing is said about nickel, palladium, or hydrogen.

      • hunfgerh

        Authorities people from the area of atomic energy act have threatend me with a report to police. For this they could use the term “Nuclear facility”. (Fusion can only made in a “Nuclear facility”). For the operation of a “Nuclear facility” in Germany a permit is necessary. The approval process is very complicated and long. I gave up.

      • hunfgerh

        I post again! Same one befor 3 hours.
        Authorities people from the area of Atomic Energy Act threatened me with a report to police. For that could use the term “Kerntechnische Anlage”. (For fusion you need a “Nuclear facility”.)
        For the operation in germany a permit is necessary. The approval process is very complicated and long. I gave up.

  • Star_A_Star

    Regarding Neanderthals, yes, European descendants are a little Neanderthal and Asian descendants are a little Denisovan. Not to mention another two or more likely three more admixtures, one of which is only known by genetics, probably in Africa, making us about fifteen per cent hybrid and the rest homo sapiens. We know far far more about Neanderthals than Denisovans. Neanderthals were certainly intelligent and could speak, had jewellery and paint and decoration and in some case even practised board deformation of infant skulls much like the Maya and Inca. However, it has been pointed out that there was less evolution of stone technology (stone flaking) with the Neanderthals and less variation of spear technology. It may be that Neanderthal adaptation to Ice Age conditions gave them a slight disadvantage with regard to aspects of some high level intelligence. This is not to suggest that this would be an overwhelming factor in their extinction as a separate species, this is likely to be a combination of a variety of factors, including their diet (especially the lack of hunting of small birds and waterlife) and changing climatic conditions. While there is much evidence for Neanderthal sophistication and they had abstraction, cultural concepts and language, I would see little evidence for cultural sophistication at the level of the Inuit. It must also be remembered that it is highly likely that all hominids have had speech since Homo Heidelbergensis if not Homo Ergaster based on recent re-analysis of fossil records of throat structures.

    • US_Citizen71

      It has been my opinion that neanderthals likely died out from disease(s) re-emerging from a thawing landscape. After all there is proof of them living side by side and apparently interbreeding with modern man.

      • USC, some of my friends from high school convinced me of the inbreeding theory.

  • ivanc

    Hi all, We have some indication LENR is real, about Rossi? the field is as murky as ever, two years ago we were speculating about every thing, and today we still do.
    I see the Rossi business as cold as ever.

    • robyn wyrick

      Then – with due respect – you haven’t been paying attention. Rossi claimed there were big advances in the E-Cat, and then we go leaked photos of the Hot-Cat. Rossi claimed that there was a 3rd party test going on by an independent group, and then we see the Elforsk study. Rossi claimed that the Hot-Cat had a certain output, and the 3rd party test confirmed that. Rossi claimed that there would be another, long-term test, and by every indication, we will see those results this season. Rossi claimed that he had sold his IP to a new company, and then we learn about Industrial Heat.

      Essentially, of the ones that can be verified, all his recent claims (past year and a half) have borne out. The Rossi business is hot like a cat.

      • As Greenwin says, they are running seriously low on ammo, poor souls.

      • ivanc

        This is exactly what I said “Rossi claimed!”

  • Star_A_Star

    Sorry I meant “another two or more likely three more admixtures, all of which are only known by genetics”.

  • Star_A_Star

    There is some speculation there is some Homo erectus within us but the other one (or two) has (or have) produced no fossil records as yet.

  • hunfgerh
  • drjohngalan

    Every one of your reasons is not “scientific”:

    “Accomplished scientists making measurement errors?” (which they all do from time to time) is very different from five years’ careful investigation resulting in an announcement which they knew would have a profound reaction. Martin Fleischmann and Stanley Pons were as sure as anyone could be that their measurements of excess heat were correct. That provides, for me, the distinction between justified belief and opinion regarding their measurements.

    Too good to be true – as I said in my post, hardly science.

    Which part of “it goes against ‘established’ theory”, is not scientific? Surely, the very essence of science is that observations which contradict a theory mean the theory is wrong (unless you include the post-modern version favoured by the climate scientists).

    On replication, what is the issue here? Others observed excess heat, including MIT and NASA who were both strongly sceptical. Not reproducible 100% of the time is different from not replicable.

    • what you say is just common sense.
      so evident that rational educated people when seeing the skepticism of mainstream,fall in incredulity, estimating that it have to be more complicated than clear unscientific mind and evident incompetence in calorimetry. in fact it is only that…

      It is funny to see that both Nature/Science editors, nuclear physicist and crackpot physicist of alternative energy focus on theory so much, while they neglect experimental evidence that are overwhelming, and the incompetence and dishonesty of critics so visible.

      incredible

    • bachcole

      Dr. John, I am pretty sure that you are misunderstanding me.

      If I accept the opinions of many scientists, that is not scientific. That would be “social” of me. I am using my social skills to discern that it is unlikely that a bunch of scientists from different countries would all be mistaken or corrupt.

      If I work out the formulas for how to overcome the Coulomb barrier or some other scientific or mathematical calculation, that would be “scientific” of me. I am not capable of working out the formulas and I don’t really want to be bothered with it.

      So, my approach has been entirely “social” by my definition. And I see that in your approach.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    I think they mean that all sorts of different LENR have been found. Many different kinds of reactions taking place in palladium (d-d fusion, O-P reactions with isotopic shifts, Mitsubishi’s transmutation reactions). Reactions in titanium. Even different hydrogen-nickel reactions (Rossi’s reaction seems to be different from Piantelli’s). Et cetera….

  • Alan DeAngelis

    I think they mean that all sorts of different LENR have been found. Many different kinds of reactions taking place in palladium (d-d fusion, O-P reactions with isotopic shifts, Mitsubishi’s transmutation reactions). Reactions in titanium. Even different hydrogen-nickel reactions (Rossi’s reaction seems to be different from Piantelli’s). Et cetera….

    • Neanderthal

      You are correct .

  • Andrew

    Has anyone read the wiki on the Ecat lately? It sounds like krivit and wright got together to write it….

  • robyn wyrick

    Then – with due respect – you haven’t been paying attention. Rossi claimed there were big advances in the E-Cat, and then we go leaked photos of the Hot-Cat. Rossi claimed that there was a 3rd party test going on by an independent group, and then we see the Elforsk study. Rossi claimed that the Hot-Cat had a certain output, and the 3rd party test confirmed that. Rossi claimed that there would be another, long-term test, and by every indication, we will see those results this season. Rossi claimed that he had sold his IP to a new company, and then we learn about Industrial Heat.

    Essentially, of the ones that can be verified, all his recent claims (past year and a half) have borne out. The Rossi business is hot like a cat.

    • Fortyniner

      As Greenwin says, they are running seriously low on ammo, poor souls.

    • ivanc

      This is exactly what I said “Rossi claimed!”

  • Robyn Wyrick

    Well, that has to be Rossi’s fault too.

    Face it: Rossi hasn’t brought even one – not even one world-changing-save-the-planet-free-power-for-everyone-revolutionary-energy-system to my personal basement.

    Not even one.

    He must be a fraud. (He also caused the 2008 financial melt-down.)

    • Ophelia Rump

      OH god, you have three friggin accounts on here, please.

      Seek professional help.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Yo bubba how many personalities do you have in that noggin?

  • GreenWin

    A sure sign of E-Cat success is the new wave of pseudo-skeptics arriving on the shores of ECW regularly. Like most failed despots, the pseudo-leadership has elected to send its remaining forces (in the end, women and children) on a final assault. These haggard adolescents arrive with little ammunition. Flimsy complaints like “It’s been two years… Where’re the robots…? No patent? etc.”

    This reinforces the sharp contrast Earth’s science overseers appear in. Their entire administration is a colossal failure. From the pathetic results of 60 years hot fusion research, to vain attempts to quash energy invention, to the fear-mongering claims of AGW. Since the end of the Second World War, Earth’s overseers and cabal of greedy toadies have done more damage to the planet than a thousand “super storms.”

    Today, is a good day. Happy Easter! 🙂

    • georgehants

      I have certainly met a few dodgy characters on here recently.
      No logic, no sense, usual run of the mill scientists I suppose.
      One or two years ago they would have been following dumb scientific doctrine that Cold Fusion was for crackpots and boasting to all their colleagues that they are “experts” on Cold Fusion and they know it is rubbish.
      Now when it looks like it is going to turn out genuine, they turn up making out they always knew it was so and giving everybody their new “expert opinions” on everything.
      Thank goodness we have always had some real scientists on page.
      ——-
      Study: US is an oligarchy, not a democracy
      http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-echochambers-27074746

      • GreenWin

        Good article George. But the problem exceeds even the oligarchy. The fear mongering, intel-paranoia, Constitution-destroying fascism that Snowden whistles about has alienated humans. Happily, there are good forces supporting LENR and its courageous band of researchers. Makes the journey worthwhile.

        • georgehants

          But to have it reported by the BBC is like having honest accounts of Cold Fusion reported in one of the premier scientific comics.
          When even such an establishment mouthpiece reports such things, it must be a good sign that even they have a limit to how much they will distort the Truth.

          • GreenWin

            The Beeb does appear to wag the dog on this. Wouldn’t it be bubbly time should CF appear in the funny pages!

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          If govt was small enough, it wouldn’t matter what ‘ocracy it was. Some Latin American countries with corrupt govts are great places to live because everyone just ignores the govt.

          There is some evidence that bribery and corruption is more efficient than govt by law. With “law” you must pay off a bunch of lawyers. With “corrupt”, you just bribe Boss Hog. Boss Hog is quicker and cheaper.

          People with enlarged “envy buttons” are never happy. They commiserate all day, in agony over the fact that someone has more than they, or that the system is “unfair”. I advocate “Free Botox for Enlarged Envy Buttons”.

          Both “law” and “corrupt” can get out of hand. With LENR, govt & ‘ocracy will be less relevant.

          • bachcole

            Smaller government, yes. North Korea, no.

          • Ophelia Rump

            Government and crime syndicate are more famiglia than most people would be capable of accepting if they had any idea at all. Money and power is money and power. The rest is presentation and style.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        Hi George, offtopic: you have criticised reductionism at some point. Lenny Susskind seems to think the same, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NZ-ElsvYKyo

        • georgehants

          Pekka, you may be surprised that there are quite a few flowers surviving in amongst the overwhelming carpet of strangling weeds in the scientific World.
          If only any scientist could tear themselves away from the confines of their restrictive reductionist thinking, that is only a very small part of our reality, they may learn a great deal.

      • Neanderthal

        Not all of us think this way if they did then they would not fit into the ethics of a true sciencist. There is a shift happening right has you speak.

        • georgehants

          Of course I realise that there are just a few very capable scientists able to still think in a scientific way, where Facts and Evidence are the holy grail and a constant search for new Evidence is the norm, not closing ones eyes and worshiping established Dogma.
          And certainly not out of place “expert opinion” replacing them.
          I am interested in your posts and as always have a completely open-mind on everything including your position.
          Perhaps you would just answer one question for me in the shortest possible words, for me to judge your thinking.
          What does science know of the meaning of the Quantum World that leads to the observed but illusional reality we know as the classical World?
          Many thanks

          • Neanderthal

            I appreciate your response. In response to your question. Observables do give us an indication of how we try to make sense of our world. But it depend on who your asks. And how we interpret them. As it stands our Nuclear understanding in the quantum realm is incomplete. However QRT seems to cast a positive light and explains anomalies that can not be answer with our existing tool kits .

          • georgehants

            Neanderthal, thank you very much for your reply, unfortunately there was only one correct scientific answer.
            Science knows absolutely nothing regarding the meaning etc. of my above question.
            One day perhaps scientists will learn to use the words, we/I do not know, instead of having the unfortunate arrogant psychological block preventing them admitting that they know almost nothing about our or any reality beyond ours and of course absolutely nothing regarding any meaning to these realities.
            Best wishes.

          • Neanderthal

            Synchronicity? 🙂

          • georgehants

            Neanderthal, sorry I can be a little slow at times, could you expand just a little.

          • georgehants

            I must point out that the posters name on my page changes from time to time, (gremlins) so if it is not you replying please disregard.

          • Neanderthal

            Sometimes observable have a complexity that involve entanglement and synchronicity is one such area that is very difficult to quantify in the classical sense. no matter how much maths we chuck at it. group theory gets close but only uses initial assumptions. and constraints the more we know the less we understand

          • georgehants

            Well that is a new piece of scientific code (mumbo jumbo) (SCIgen) to avoid admitting, we don’t have a clue.
            I was hoping for just a little more from one of our top institutions.
            Your bluff has been called my friend.
            Best

          • Quiet Wine Guy

            you are not the only one who has observed this name change phenomenon

          • Obvious

            I have seen it too. That’s why I’m staying out of this.

          • Quiet Wine Guy

            Do you have a guess as to the cause?

            My guess is that if a PC with a given IP address creates multiple anonymous comments with different unregistered aliases, then there may be name changes like ‘magic’. But, this is just a guess.

          • artefact

            I have seen a comment from Ophelia Rump under the name of Pekka for example . After refresh it was ok. I guess it is just a bug in browsers handling the disqus code.

          • Obvious

            Roger’s name flited around a bit, but he did have two names. It is feasible that two people could have the same IP for a while, causing a conflict with Disqus. Disqus does have a function to reset posts by multiple IDs to a chosen ID, which I saw when I went fron Guest posts to my Obvious ID. I’m not sure if that is based on IP or email address though.

          • bachcole

            For me it never was about deception. Disqus misbehaved and I didn’t want to lose my handle and it is complicated. I am Roger Bird and I am bachcole. <>

          • Obvious

            I didn’t mean to imply anything about you or your handle, Roger. We discussed that earlier and I’m fine with it. It was an example of Disqus recognizing the IP address of the handle owner and dealing with it strangely. I suspect that the flipping ID thingy is a an IP conflict related issue.

          • Vio Phile

            Dr Brian Josephson, Nobel prize winner, very much part of the “scientific establishment” you so adamantly abhor, is one of the first people to believe in Rossi. I wish you would not categorize all mainstream science as ignorant or unwilling to explore unknown or new areas of science.

    • heath

      Look: people are forming opinions on bits of information, timelines, infrequent tests, and the blogs of supporters and deniers. I can see how people have a negative view of this especially when they do not dig much further and think about the thingsevents that may have been surrounding Rossi’s saga that we have no idea of. This is why I love Lewan’s book–he gives you an account of what was going on because he was there in person or communicating with those involved. It also gives a great view of Rossi’s personality. And there is probably a lot that Mats doesn’t even know. If the skeptics would just stand back for a second and think about how difficult is must be to play the part of scientist and engineer for an invention that everyone would want to claim for themselves (perhaps steal) with a technology that can be hard to replicate or control and then spend all of one’s fortune doing it, it puts things in a better perspective when looking at the bits of information, timelines, etc over the last several years. Trial and error, failed and positive tests, politics and then having internet trolls spouting all sorts of libel against you cannot be easy. That is why I cannot easily dismiss this saga as a scam. But people have to be willing to look at the big picture. It makes sense to question anything that comes along this big from an eccentric guy like Rossi, but to form an opinion on this being a complete scam based on little information is a very bad idea. I wish they understood that.

      • GreenWin

        heath, anyone still shilling the word “scam” has not looked at or absorbed the evidence. The blackout of a free press is criminal. All of which points to a markedly compromised simulation.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Admittedly, I know little about the history of hot fusion research. But I could imagine that the motives for that research have initially been honest. The structures might have become problematic with the availability of huge amounts of governmental funding. Maybe we should be happy that CF/LENR has not already reached this stage. At least, there are currently no lucrative positions that could be occupied by the wrong people.

      • GreenWin

        Andreas, fusion development was motivated by Truman’s fear of Soviet fission weapons in 1949. Ed Teller, Stanislaw Ulam and a team of weapons experts started developing an H bomb in 1950, confirming the nuclear arms race. This sent an red flag throughout the entire community. Since then “clean, unlimited” fusion energy has been a beard for weapons programs. Controlling and confining a thermonuclear reaction is far more complex than an explosive reaction.

        A similar weapons application must be explicitly ruled out of use and development of LENR – as it appears to be by physical evidence from the reaction.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          I should have been more precise: Actually, I meant the research in controlled hot fusion, as in the ITER project, for instance. LENR will surely be utilized by the military in some way, but even if it were possible there is no need to think of new bombs, since there are already more than enough of them. Military LENR research will hopefully focus on energy generation technologies, which would also be useful for the civil sector. Apart from the financial aspect, the military has the advantage that they don’t have to care about permissions and certifications, which are otherwise a serious obstacle as soon as the word “nuclear” appears somewhere.

  • GreenWin

    What kinda car you talking about? Those vans with roll out canopy can be comfortable. On a beach in Florida. 🙂

  • US_Citizen71

    It has been my opinion that neanderthals likely died out from disease(s) re-emerging from a thawing landscape. After all there is proof of them living side by side and apparently interbreeding with modern man.

    • Barry8

      USC, some of my friends from high school convinced me of the inbreeding theory.

  • GreenWin

    heath, anyone still shilling the word “scam” has not looked at or absorbed the evidence. The blackout of a free press is criminal. All of which points to a markedly compromised simulation.

  • ecatworld

    I am deleting posts that accuse other posters of having multiple identities here.

    • Quiet Wine Guy

      You are exercising good judgment and doing the right thing.

  • Frank Acland

    I am deleting posts that accuse other posters of having multiple identities here.

    • Guest

      .

  • observer

    The true reality does not require the suspension of disbelief or for that matter belief itself. What is, is. It is the ultimate hubris to think one’s belief defines reality.

    • Neanderthal

      I have heard that philosophy and science can be one anothers illegitimate offspring .

    • AB

      It’s a common human illusion though. One need only look at psychology, religion, new age philosophy or the way some people view the placebo effect to see examples of people believing they can shape reality with their mere thoughts.

      • Quiet Wine Guy

        AB,
        Does the simple thought process of mindfully meditating upon one’s symbol of compassion change the physical structure of the brain?

        • AB

          So does juggling, but one doesn’t see people practising juggling to cure their cancer, find the perfect partner or whatever dreams they want to become reality.

          • Quiet Wine Guy

            You are contradicting yourself. You said that Man does not have the capacity to shape reality with one’s mere thoughts. Now you agree they can.

            IMO, your generalization is incorrect.

          • AB

            > You are contradicting yourself.

            Am I? I do not equate changes in brain structure to “shaping reality”.

          • Quiet Wine Guy

            Then, we disagree. I consider the physical world, with all its constituents, an aspect of reality. And, man has the capacity to shape reality, even if it is only a small aspect, with a mere thought . . . even excluding the practice effect of juggling.

            QM, with the ‘newly’ discovered phenomena of action at a distance w/o material intermediaries, has opened the eyes of those willing to see a very strange reality.

          • bachcole

            The problem is that you and 99.99% of the human race think that they are living in REALITY. This is the illusion. The closest we come to reality is the fact of our experiencing it.

          • Quiet Wine Guy

            Roger, I’m certain I’m living in the ‘Here and Now’ of reality. It is my perceptions which are one step removed as they are the results of the conditioning my senses and brain impose upon the stimuli. It is like Plato’s metaphor of the Cave.

          • bachcole

            QWG, have you ever notice how philosophers can never seem to agree about the nature of reality or pretty much anything else? Have you ever noticed how no one can really agree about everything with anyone else?

            I have been outside of the Cave.

        • bachcole

          Of course.

    • GreenWin

      Does the “true reality” conform to laws of QM?

      • bachcole

        The world is an illusion. God alone is real.

      • Quiet Wine Guy

        I thought your question quite straight forward. It seems you won’t get an answer from Observer or his friend AB.

      • AB

        Yes, quantum mechanics are “magical” and real. It doesn’t mean other “magical” things are automatically real as well.

        • Quiet Wine Guy

          AB, I believe your answer is fundamentally incorrect as it does not really answer GW’s question.

          Man has created a theory, which he injudiciously calls “Laws of QM”. This theory, with its equations, is fundamentally a metaphor for ‘True Reality’. ‘True Reality’ does not conform to man’s QM theory . . . Man’s QM metaphor conforms to ‘True Reality’ only because of the discipline of Bacon’s creation, the discipline of the scientific method.

          A good example of this point is Newton’s theory of Gravity with its supporting equations. The truth of it only being a metaphor was made clear by the planet Mercury; its orbit does not conform to Newton’s Law of Gravity. It was only until Einstein’s better metaphor for the theory of Gravity that the reason for the non-conformity was made clear: Newton’s “Law” breaks down when you get too close to such a massive object like the sun.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Interesting, I did not know that such a request had been addressed do the German Kanzleramt. However, I’m not surprised about the answer. They are totally dependent on mainstream science. No publication in Nature or Science – no public funding. That would be no problem if private persons or companies were allowed to develop their own technology. As you say in your comment on the same site, the German Atomic Energy Act forbids it. But are you really sure that it is applicable to LENR reactors? Look at the definition of “Kernbrennstoffe” in §2(1):

    http://www.buzer.de/s1.htm?g=AtG&a=1,2

    They are only talking about the usual isotopes of plutonium and uranium. Furthermore, they mention substances that can be used to “maintain a chain reaction”. Nothing is said about nickel, palladium, or hydrogen.

  • Neanderthal

    I have heard that philosophy and science can be one anothers illegitimate offspring .

  • AB

    It’s a common human illusion though. One need only look at psychology, religion, new age philosophy or the way some people view the placebo effect to see examples of people believing they can shape reality with their mere thoughts.

    • Quiet Wine Guy

      Does the simple thought process of mindfully meditating upon one’s symbol of compassion change the physical structure of the brain?

      • AB

        So does juggling, but one doesn’t see people practising juggling to cure their cancer, find the perfect partner or whatever dreams they want to become reality.

        • Quiet Wine Guy

          You are contradicting yourself. You said that Man does not have the capacity to shape reality with one’s mere thoughts. Now you agree they can.

          Your and Observer’s point doesn’t hold water.

          • AB

            > You are contradicting yourself.

            Am I? I do not equate changes in brain structure to “shaping reality”.

          • Quiet Wine Guy

            Then, we disagree. I consider the physical world an aspect of reality.

          • GreenWin

            Neander consider the sub-conscious idea that your “Dragon” might refer to the Space X Dragon and Elon Musk’s high tech empire. Wouldn’t that make for a great ride! http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/04/140418212927.htm

          • Neanderthal

            🙂 That made me smile. 🙂 On a serious note. In my opinion

            I think what is being overlooked and underestimated is the ability of LENR i.e. (hot_cat) to do useful work and maximize profits for less cost. Then we will see the big companies starting to ask questions. “How is this particular company doing this?”

            LENR will cause a boom in profits in whoever invests in it.
            If it makes you rich they will accept it. It seems a certainty.
            Money and Greed will take this into the mainstream more quickly than we can anticipate.
            I believe that there needs to be some regulating body that’s if there isn’t one already. In the wrong hands it could be dangerous e.g. a fringe group using it for more heinous purposes

          • jonnyb

            Yeh greed and self interest, what a species we are. I suppose that is why we are still here and the Neanderthals are not.

          • bachcole

            Speak for yourself.

            (:->)

          • jonnyb

            Only 3 to 4% of you though.

          • bachcole

            But that is the part that makes me so freaking good looking. (:->)

          • jonnyb

            My 3% is my butt, oh well.

          • jonnyb

            Have you seen Thunder Fusion has updated it’s home page a bit, looks like they may be on the move as well.

          • jonnyb

            Yeh he certainly does, better than anyone. The link is I hope: http://www.world-lecture-series.org/dragon-iii click on the film. It is called Dragon 111 so appropriate for this post, one of the tails? Very disappointed with Mills as well, it was the site that first re-ignited my interest.

          • bachcole

            The problem is that you and 99.99% of the human race think that they are living in REALITY. This is the illusion. The closest we come to reality is the fact of our experiencing it.

          • Quiet Wine Guy

            Roger, I’m certain I’m living in the ‘Here and Now’ of reality. It is my perceptions which are one step removed as they are the results of the conditioning my senses and brain impose upon the stimuli. It is like Plato’s metaphor of the Cave.

  • GreenWin

    Does the “true reality” conform to laws of QM?

    • Quiet Wine Guy

      I thought your question quite straight forward. It seems you won’t get an answer from Observer or his friend AB.

    • AB

      Yes, quantum mechanics are “magical” and real. It doesn’t mean other “magical” things are automatically real as well.

      • Quiet Wine Guy

        AB, I believe your answer is fundamentally incorrect as it does not really answer GW’s question.

        Man has created a theory, which he injudiciously calls “Laws of QM”. This theory, with its equations is fundamentally a metaphor for ‘True Reality’. ‘True Reality’ does not conform to man’s QM theory . . . Man’s QM metaphor conforms to ‘True Reality’ only because of the discipline of Bacon’s creation, the discipline of the scientific method.

        A good example of this point is Newton’s theory of Gravity with its supporting equations. The truth of it only being a metaphor was made clear by the planet Mercury’s non-conforming orbit; its orbit does not conform to Newton’s Law of Gravity. It was only until Einstein’s better metaphor for the theory of Gravity that the reason for the non-conformity was made clear: Newton’s “Law” breaks down when you get to close to such a massive object like the sun.

        • GreenWin

          Great answer QWG. Looks like “Observer” is misnamed.

          • Quiet Wine Guy

            The same can be said of AB, IMO.

            I guess as we get closer to the unveiling, we will be seeing more of their likes here at Frank’s place, where everyone knows your name.

  • blanco69

    Neanderthal, you seem to have stuck around after your initial cryptic posts. Would you be able to share any more of what you claim to know about LENR? Like what circumstances cause you to know for sure that the phenomenon is real. Or maybe, whose theory do you think is most accurate; Storms, Godes, Larsen etc. I don’t mean to pry but since this thread has been born out of one of your posts I thought it would be legitimate to ask you directly.

    • AB

      Good question. Surely LENR wasn’t always taken seriously, so what caused the shift? Was it the Levi report?

      • bachcole

        Of course, but as we have seen in Mats’ book, we here don’t know everything that is going on. I would probably have been convinced long before the May 2013 Levi et. al. Report if I had known everything that is going on. Like Rossi knew everything that was going on and he was convinced. In fact, Focardi knew first. Rossi wasn’t sure. Focardi had to reassure Rossi that it was real.

    • Neanderthal

      LENR is a reality. The problem is in the formulation. I mentioned earlier in my post that being a multibodied problem. We need to go back to basics and find the turning point. The irony is at which point does this happens on a singular scale in that I mean.
      Its not a matter of integration to apply to the bulk effect such has harmonised lattice vibration good luck on that N.I. labview advise to them you need ultra fast capture tools in the TENS OF TERAHERTZ domain . None of these theories do unfortunately. The Criteria most importantly is the shape of the fields …I know other physicist are reading this and they know exactly what I am talking about I need explain my conjectures in mathematics. all will be revealed I am confident in that. Cryptics is best and another gem for hot fusion physicist. Btw the scales of the dragon are hexagonal .

      • GreenWin

        The crystal structure of Ni is cubic. The crystal structure of H is hex. BTW, Dr. Yeong Kim, Purdue theoretical physicist, works with many-bodied BECs. He is also a consultant to Cyclone Power Technologies.

        • Neanderthal

          bingo! I am impressed 🙂

        • Andreas Moraitis

          We should not forget Santilli’s deuterium-carbon(graphite) system. The crystal symmetry of graphite is very different from that of nickel or palladium. Santilli’s effect might the touchstone for any theory of LENR, in many respects.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            “might be”, sorry.

      • artefact

        You mentioned several institutes we dont’t know of are investigating LENR. At what time do you think did that start? (After Rossis Jan. 2011 demo?)

        • Neanderthal

          In the time of Friedrich Paneth & Kurt Peters if I am correct. I would need to look into our archives to give you a definitive answer.
          .However if I am not mistaken they retracted their results due to background helium that skewed their measurements. I am unaware if they took into account the faradaic efficiencies. if it was less than 100% then cold fusion may have been a possibility. I am unable to give you anymore information at this time .

          • Neanderthal

            Sorry I misread your text yes after 2011. I get the impression that some posters know more than I first thought. Who are you Greenwin? and Ophelia are you Nuclear Scientist also. ?

          • GreenWin

            Neander, if you don’t know by now… we would have to eliminate you. 🙂

  • GreenWin

    The crystal structure of Ni is cubic. The crystal structure of H is hex. BTW, Dr. Yeong Kim, Purdue theoretical physicist, works with many-bodied BECs. He is also a consultant to Cyclone Power Technologies.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      We should not forget Santilli’s deuterium-carbon(graphite) system. The crystal symmetry of graphite is very different from that of nickel or palladium. Santilli’s effect might the touchstone for any theory of LENR, in many respects.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        “might be”, sorry.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    That sounds pretty sad. If you have something real, you should not give up. There are some persons or companies in Germany which are allegedly pursuing LENR projects, for instance:

    http://www.purratio.ag/html/willkommen.html
    http://coldfusion3.com/blog/german-company-doing-cold-fusion-research-in-berlin

    Maybe there is a way to overcome the bureaucratic obstacles – it might be just a question of wording. If you would meet the right people, a solution could perhaps be found. And if it is not possible in Germany – there are other options, as we all know.

  • artefact

    You mentioned several institutes we dont’t know of are investigating LENR. At what time do you think did that start? (After Rossis Jan. 2011 demo?)

    • Neanderthal

      In the time of Friedrich Paneth & Kurt Peters if I am correct. I would need to look into our archives to give you a definitive answer.
      .However if I am not mistaken they retracted their results due to background helium that skewed their measurements. I am unaware if they took into account the faradaic efficiencies. if it was less than 100% then cold fusion may have been a possibility. I am unable to give you anymore information at this time .

      • Neanderthal

        Sorry I misread your text yes after 2011. I get the impression that some posters know more than I first thought. Who are you Greenwin? and Ophelia are you Nuclear Scientist also. ?

        • GreenWin

          Neander, if you don’t know by now… we would have to eliminate you. 🙂

  • Obvious

    I didn’t mean to imply anything about you or your handle, Roger. We discussed that earlier and I’m fine with it. It was an example of Disqus recognizing the IP address of the handle owner and dealing with it strangely. I suspect that the flipping ID thingy is a an IP conflict related issue.

  • GreenWin

    Neander consider the sub-conscious idea that your “Dragon” might refer to the Space X Dragon and Elon Musk’s high tech empire. Wouldn’t that make for a great ride! http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2014/04/140418212927.htm

    • Neanderthal

      🙂 That made me smile. 🙂 On a serious note. In my opinion

      I think what is being overlooked and underestimated is the ability of LENR i.e. (hot_cat) to do useful work and maximize profits for less cost. Then we will see the big companies starting to ask questions. “How is this particular company doing this?”

      LENR will cause a boom in profits in whoever invests in it.
      If it makes you rich they will accept it. It seems a certainty.
      Money and Greed will take this into the mainstream more quickly than we can anticipate.
      I believe that there needs to be some regulating body that’s if there isn’t one already. In the wrong hands it could be dangerous e.g. a fringe group using it for more heinous purposes

      • jonnyb

        Yeh greed and self interest, what a species we are. I suppose that is why we are still here and the Neanderthals are not.

        • bachcole

          Speak for yourself.

          (:->)

          • jonnyb

            Only 3 to 4% of you though.

          • bachcole

            But that is the part that makes me so freaking good looking. (:->)

          • jonnyb

            My 3% is my butt, oh well.

          • jonnyb

            Have you seen Thunder Fusion has updated it’s home page a bit, looks like they may be on the move as well.

          • bachcole

            Please keep us updated. Since most of my neanderthalness is in my head, I really can’t keep up with everything. Does Santilli have a demonstration better than Mills; i.e. one that is worth a crap.

          • jonnyb

            Yeh he certainly does, better than anyone. The link is I hope: http://www.world-lecture-series.org/dragon-iii click on the film. It is called Dragon 111 so appropriate for this post, one of the tails? Very disappointed with Mills as well, it was the site that first re-ignited my interest.

          • bachcole

            I am more than disappointed in Mills. My intelligence was insulted, twice. I am disappointed in Brillouin. I am certain that they will still come through for us, eventually, but I don’t even remember what their demo was. Defkalion’s demo was a tad bit lame, not quite disappointing. Mills and BLP, their demo was an insult to my intelligence. Rossi, his demo was rockin’. It was Baker Shot: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NG9Jo3a6yLY That’s what you call a demo.

          • jonnyb

            In my opinion Rossi and Santilli are neck and neck. I could have cried when I saw BLP’s wielder crud. I expected so much. In my opinion it is demo’s like that that give LENR a bad name, when there is so much evidence that it is real. I have every confidence in Rossi and Santilli. Maybe there are others out there about to come up on the inside Jet?

          • bachcole

            Mills had a big build up. A great theory. And a demo not worthy of a middle school. And he had the gall to call us a cult.

          • stefan

            Mills is a joke… it was so apparent with his latest “demo”, he is hunting for stupid money so in some respect his activity is useful… stupids should be poor…

          • bachcole

            It seems very unlikely that Santilli is faking anything; it just doesn’t make any social sense. There were too many people involved.

            But I did not see any mention of the words “over unity”. The creation of silica was impressive. I hope to see more from him; that movie was 3 years old.

          • jonnyb

            I read a while ago that the COP was around 6, it was on the site somewhere.

          • bachcole

            Encouraging. The equipment looked very serious.

  • jonnyb

    I read a while ago that the COP was around 6, it was on the site somewhere.

  • jonnyb

    In my opinion Rossi and Santilli are neck and neck. I could have cried when I saw BLP’s wielder crud. I expected so much. In my opinion it is demo’s like that that give LENR a bad name, when there is so much evidence that it is real. I have every confidence in Rossi and Santilli. Maybe there are others out there about to come up on the inside Jet?

    • bachcole

      Mills had a big build up. A great theory. And a demo not worthy of a middle school. And he had the gall to call us a cult.