Rossi: 'Vast R&D' Underway in Coupling Solar Plants with E-Cat

Here’s an interesting exchange on the Journal of Nuclear Physics which give a little indication about how E-Cat technology may be deployed in the future:

Dear Andrea Rossi,

Have you considered using solar cells to improve the effective COP of the Hot eCat units? Conceptually, each eCat reactor unit would be connected with a heat exchanger where the average temperature of the heat exchanger surface would be 600C. I have not gone through the specific calculations so the added power may not be worth the effort and expense. Something to consider.

Andrea Rossi
May 25th, 2014 at 7:14 AM
Steven N. Karels:
We are making vast R&D regarding couplings with solar plants. I cannot talk about particulars, due to the necessity to avoid pre- publication of patents in course of application.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

As we’ve discussed before here, solar power could certainly be a source of energy that could be used to ‘drive’ E-Cats, either using PV cells to produce electricity, or direct thermal energy — since a heat source is needed to initiate and control the E-Cat reaction.

It might also be worth mentioning that Cherokee Investment Partners who formed Industrial Heat in the past have worked in the area of converting brownfield sites (contaminated and abandoned ex-industrial pieces of land) into solar farms.

  • theBuckWheat

    e-Cat renders solar power obsolete. And e-Cat will not be anywhere near a vulnerable to EMP as PV solar panels are. Any EMP event, whether natural or a “man-caused disaster”, will instantly fry every PV solar cell that the pulse can reach.

  • Bernie777

    I just do not see the advantage of coupling Rossi reactor (Nickle Energy) to solar cells, compared to a stand alone reactor. The energy to start/run the E-Cat is not a critical variable. Someone please explain.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Combining E-Cat technology with existing plants, of whatever kind, would have two advantages. First, provided that the plant could run both with and without the E-Cats, the risk of a failure of the complete system would be minimal. Without the E-Cats it would work just as good as it did before. Secondly, there are already a huge number of power plants in the world, which could be retrofitted – potentially a gigantic market. IH would be well advised to take this opportunity.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    I just do not see the advantage of coupling Rossi reactor (Nickle Energy) to solar cells, compared to a stand alone reactor. The energy to start/run the E-Cat is not a critical variable. Someone please explain.

    • bachcole

      I also don’t see any advantage because of the fact that we have this little thingie called nighttime.

      • Frank Acland

        There are various kinds of energy storage systems that might be used.

        • Bernie Koppenhofer

          Why not just retrofit exsisting coal plants?

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Combining E-Cat technology with existing plants, of whatever kind, would have two advantages. First, provided that the plant could run both with and without the E-Cats, the risk of a failure of the complete system would be minimal. Without the E-Cats it would work just as good as it did before. Secondly, there are already a huge number of power plants in the world, which could be retrofitted – potentially a gigantic market. IH would be well advised to take this opportunity.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Smart move. The people who feel the most threatened by the E-Cat are the solar panel researchers. So, turn them into allies.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Smart move. The people who feel the most threatened by the E-Cat are the solar panel researchers. So, turn them into allies.

  • Hope4Dbest

    I don’t see the logic of coupling the Ecat with a source that only produces power a few hours a day. How could a solar panel control an Ecat at night?

    • Right. Solar is a waste of time. These types of ideas spring from people who still think renewable energy is a good idea, not the tragic economy crushing disaster that it actually is. This fad won’t last because the pure LENR energy producers will have lower costs than the solar and wind advocates.

      • bachcole

        Solar was a good idea before the government started to get involved and started to incentivize it and mandate it. When the market ruled and not Czar Obama and his minions of wide-eyed idealists, people bought solar when it was economically wise to do so and not when it wasn’t economically wise to do so. Now it has become an albatross around our collective necks.

      • Private Citizen

        Solar cost/price curves are diving, soon to be cheaper than coal. Production of the panels not only is becoming cheaper, but more energy efficient and environmentally friendly. Advances in cheap batteries, inexpensive, efficient hydrogen production and other innovative off-line storage &/or transport technologies such as long-distance grid delivery abound. Solar is here to stay–and if LENR proves to be a bust, it is our best hope.

        Statements like “Solar is a waste of time” might go down in ignominy with “Heavier than air flight is impossible,” “I think there is a world market for maybe five computers,” “We don’t like their [The Beatles’] sound, and guitar music is on the way out.”

        • GreenWin

          PC, stringed instrument music has been “on the way out” since the Egyptian harp in 3000 BC! 🙂

    • Owen Geiger

      See my post above about the Sun Focus quarterly magazine. There are many variables. Sometimes solar is practical. Rossi is wise to investigate how to integrate E-Cats with the appropriate system.

  • ecatworld

    There are various kinds of energy storage systems that might be used.

    • Bernie777

      Why not just retrofit exsisting coal plants?

  • Pekka Janhunen

    I agree with those who criticise the idea. However, maybe AR didn’t answer exactly the same question that SNK asked (it wouldn’t be the first time such happens). “R&D regarding couplings with solar plants” could mean many things, for example it could be as simple as scheduling to run electricity-producing gas-cats when electricity price is highest i.e. when renewables are silent.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    I agree with those who criticise the idea. However, maybe AR didn’t answer exactly the same question that SNK asked (it wouldn’t be the first time such happens). “R&D regarding couplings with solar plants” could mean many things, for example it could be as simple as scheduling to run electricity-producing gas-cats when electricity price is highest i.e. when renewables are silent.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    Variations of Ecat technology is just wasting time and mind energy better focused on proof of concept.

    Rossi could adapt his tech to solar, turbines, etc., but really all he needs to do is have the correct patents in place and prove the thing works.

    With proof of concept we will see Trillions of dollars vented into LENR R&D. Leave the Solar Cell options to someone else.

    LENR is currently being nickel and dimed with one of the largest investments being the Kimmel Grant of $5 Million. The NASA budget is less than half a million. Imagine what a few thousand researchers could accomplish in a short time once this technology is accepted with almost unlimited funding.

    • mcloki

      Who needs proof. Only the people building the e-cats. They have it and they are building. then it’s marketing turn to sell the product. And marketers could care less about theory. Head, Heart, Wallet. Head. It’s a new energy source. Heart. Save the planet, no GHG.Wallet. save x dollars. Proof of concept doesn’t even come up. Consumer reports isn;t going to give two shits that they can’t or don;’t understand the theory, all they will report on is if more heat comes out for less dollars in.

    • Owen Geiger

      It takes a lot of time and effort to bring new technology to market. The patent/legal side alone requires a staggering amount of work.

      In the meantime, I see no reason not to investigate promising market opportunities. IH can multi-task. They can afford to throw millions of dollars at this.

      IH is not trying to convince or win over average consumers like us at this point. They know it works and I believe they’re hard at work on a well thought out plan. They want to ensure they have the upper hand (best technology available) before the trillions of dollars in investment money is available to the competition.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    ATTN: EVERYONE……

    SO MANY HERE THINK THIS CANNOT BE RUN AT NIGHT BECAUSE OF “SOLAR”…

    http://www.nbcnews.com/id/43989608/ns/technology_and_science-future_of_technology/t/solar-cells-need-no-sun-just-heat-create-energy/#.U4IhaHawW-g

    “Solar” is a Misnomer because it implies sunlight. I believe this article refers to how HEAT is used

    in Thermal PV tech.

    This news means (IMHO), that they are looking at creating energy with straight Ecat heat, and NO SUNLIGHT is involved.

    I see at least a dozen comments here discussing nighttime use, etc. I think they are misguided.

    • Omega Z

      Hadn’t thought of that angle. Maybe they see PV becoming efficient enough in the near future to be cost/benefit usable. Especially if a COP of 18 or 20 is obtainable.
      Great starting point in 3rd World Zones even if PV is around 20% efficient.

      • friendlyprogrammer

        Even 5% efficiency would give a lot of energy if we go by early assessments suggesting a gram of Nickel will equal 5 barrels of oil. Plus this would be clean and portable, not to mention the large abundance of Nickel (Fifth most common element).

        I think they are desperate to produce electricity though and are exploring all avenues.

  • Buck

    We citizens of the 1st world cultures seem to forget that a good 50% of the world’s population does not live near a stable inexpensive source of clean safe energy.

    Not only is there the benefit of making friends with the Solar industry, but there is the humanitarian benefit of bringing power to areas which likely need power for simple things like food preparation, cooking, a clean source of potable water, waste treatment, etc.

    Rossi and Cherokee are true to their core values and are pursuing reasonable R&D areas for their LENR technology, IMHO.

    • Omega Z

      Agreed
      What makes little sense to us makes much sense in other parts of the world. They are starting from scratch. These would be seeding operations & it will take many years to bring them up to what we consider the norm.

      • Buck

        I have my fingers crossed with the impending LTTP report.

        A reasonable sense of optimism says that Rossi would only be sharing IH’s pursuit of this type of R&D if there was a strong-very strong sense that the Industrial E-Cat is workable and ‘easy’ to engineer into operational design.

  • Buck

    We citizens of the 1st world cultures seem to forget that a good 50% of the world’s population does not live near a stable inexpensive source of clean safe energy.

    Not only is there the benefit of making friends with the Solar industry, but there is the humanitarian benefit of bringing power to areas which likely need power for simple things like food preparation, cooking, a clean source of potable water, waste treatment, etc.

    Rossi and Cherokee are true to their core values and are pursuing reasonable R&D areas for their LENR technology, IMHO.

    • Omega Z

      Agreed
      What makes little sense to us makes much sense in other parts of the world. They are starting from scratch. These would be seeding operations & it will take many years to bring them up to what we consider the norm.

      • Buck

        I have my fingers crossed with the impending LTTP report.

        A reasonable sense of optimism says that Rossi would only be sharing IH’s pursuit of this type of R&D if there was a strong-very strong sense that the Industrial E-Cat is workable and ‘easy’ to engineer into operational design.

        We already ‘know’ that the results for the LTTP are “Remarkable”. So, we wait about 3 more weeks.

  • Paul

    From this news, I guess IH wants to create stand-alone plants for Africa or similar relatively low developed areas. This type of plants, being not grid connected (or at least not at significant levels for power input), would be also the best and “final” demostrator of validity for E-Cat’s technology.

  • CancunKurt

    Solar plants, hopefully meaning turbine driven reflector plants where ecat heat can contribute and get converted to electricity etc etc. If solar panels, then, why the hell?

    • Ophelia Rump

      Because everything but the solar panel is needed to support the E-Cat, and solar panels can never fully utilize that existing infrastructure.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I think they want to go to market, but they have not found a profitable electric production scenario.
    Otherwise for off-grid they would run off batteries and recharge the batteries.

    This I find troubling.

    • Paul

      They need heat, so batteries are not a good option (they are not an option also for PV plants, where incentives are needed at the current prices, at least here in Europe). The solar source is enough to start a big stand-alone plant made of several units producing electricity, part of which would be used to power the plant itself. This is perfectly feasible with a COP > 15 for the E-Cat unit, as I expect from the Third Party Report.

      • Ophelia Rump

        My apologies for changing my posting Paul.
        Your response is a good one for what I originally wrote, but what I wrote was not well thought out. Sometimes my thoughts are not even close to being developed until I read them and question them myself.

      • Owen Geiger

        It takes a lot of time and effort to bring new technology to market. The patent/legal side alone requires a staggering amount of work.

        In the meantime, I see no reason not to investigate promising market opportunities. IH can multi-task. They can afford to throw millions of dollars at this.

        IH is not trying to convince or win over average consumers like us at this point. They know it works and I believe they’re hard at work on a well thought out plan. They want to ensure they have the upper hand (best technology available) before the trillions of dollars in investment money is available to the competition.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I think this is Tom Darden targeting existing hookups.

    Look at it is a way to squeeze E-Cat technology into existing solar funding scenarios. Think instant grants and tax breaks.

    It could turn marginal solar/wind investments into great investments while keeping the solar branding, and take advantage of the existing investments in electrical inversion and hookup necessary for solar. Think of it a hijacking the market both through new and retrofit investments. Solar is happy. LENR is happy.
    Everybody happy!

    Ask yourself where is there a plug and play market for small scale electric production?
    Where is there existing infrastructure on a prepared site, to push a megawatt of power through to get it into the grid without the wire burning up? That is your target market.

    A majority of the expense for implementing an electric production facility with an E-Cat is the power hookup to the grid. Plug and play makes the investment seem almost free in comparison.

    I don’t see what is so vast about the R&D required, all you have to do is hook up the wires.
    I think the vast research part was fluff to peak interest.

    • Paul

      They need heat, so batteries are not a good option (they are not an option also for PV plants, where incentives are needed at the current prices, at least here in Europe). The solar source is enough to start a big stand-alone plant made of several units producing electricity, part of which would be used to power the plant itself. This is perfectly feasible with a COP > 15 for the E-Cat unit, as I expect from the Third Party Report.

      • Ophelia Rump

        My apologies for changing my posting Paul.
        Your response is a good one for what I originally wrote, but what I wrote was not well thought out. Sometimes my thoughts are not even close to being developed until I read them and question them myself.

  • William D. Fleming

    I don’t understand all this concern over the input energy. If the E-Cat works there will be an abundance of energy. There are various ways of converting some of that energy into a suitable form which can be regulated, stored, and applied back into the system as needed. You could make hydrogen and run a hydrogen powered gen-set. You could melt lead or some other metal and hold it in an insulated container. Raise weights, charge batteries–the possibilities are endless. It is not an important issue.

  • mcloki

    Well if India wants solar. You give them solar.

  • mcloki

    Well if India wants solar. You give them solar.

  • Alain Samoun

    Solar cells(PV?) don’t make too much sens to me to provide the necessary heat to a working E-Cat as we know it. Maybe Rossi means a coupling to a source of heat provided by a solar high-temperature collector?

    • Paul

      Right observation. I think that PV field makes sense if the E-Cat plant is for an area where there is no an adequate electric infrastructure, and the solar high-temperature collector makes sense for an area where there is no an adequate gas infrastructure, because at least one version of the Hot-Cat, probabily, will be gas-fired.

      • Alain Samoun

        What I mean is that the high-temperature collector can be used with an heat storage (salts?) that can release the necessary energy when the sun is down. Still not a very good system as the e-cat can also be used to store the energy the same way…

    • Omega Z

      Maybe this is for isolated areas where Grids do not yet exist thus no way to fire up an E-cat. Several of Cherokees personnel are involved in places of this nature. 3rd World zones.

  • Alain Samoun

    Solar cells(PV?) don’t make too much sens to me to provide the necessary heat to a working E-Cat as we know it. Maybe Rossi means a coupling to a source of heat provided by a solar high-temperature collector?

    • Paul

      Right observation. I think that PV field makes sense if the E-Cat plant is for an area where there is no an adequate electric infrastructure, and the solar high-temperature collector makes sense for an area where there is no an adequate gas infrastructure, because at least one version of the Hot-Cat, probabily, will be gas-fired.

      • Alain Samoun

        What I mean is that the high-temperature collector can be used with an heat storage (salts?) that can release the necessary energy when the sun is down. Still not a very good system as the e-cat can also be used to store the energy the same way…

    • Omega Z

      Maybe this is for isolated areas where Grids do not yet exist thus no way to fire up an E-cat. Several of Cherokees personnel are involved in places of this nature. 3rd World zones.

  • Charles

    That sort of staggers me. I was cruising around thinking E-Cat would rid us of solar and wind ALTOGETHER.

    • Ivone

      No. It requires energy to start the reactor. So, on a hot African or Indian day, connect the reactor to a medium sized solar farm, say 100,000 watts, and three hours later, the Rossi reactor is up and running.

      • Owen Geiger

        Concentrating solar technology is big in India: Sun Focus quarterly magazine (free online)
        http://www.in.undp.org/content/india/en/home/library/environment_energy/sun-focus/

        The magazine profiles commercial operations for dairies, brick drying, commercial kitchens, power plants, defense, hospitals, every business imaginable even clothes ironing shops. Case studies explain costs, payback period, details. E-Cats could be integrated with these systems.

        • Ivone

          The E – Cat and solar concentrators would be a good match in hot (and not so hot) countries. Would it work in north England, where I live? Winter, solar becomes useless.

          • Owen Geiger

            Of course. One size shoe does not fit all.

        • jousterusa

          As recently reported on the news, the Koch Brothers are bent on ending subsidies for solar and wind, since they are in the fossil fuel business. They are trying to get laws that gives solar users the right to sell power back to the grid repealed state by state. They have not had LENR on their radar yet.

    • Ophelia Rump

      It will. Once all the solar and wind sites electrical hardware have been repurposed for LENR it will rarely make sense to use wind or solar again. Until then the solar/wind market is a super highway to the grid.

    • Fortyniner

      Rossi is probably thinking of places where there is little or no fuel, and no electricity, such as middle eastern and African deserts. As far as the rest of us are concerned it seems quite likely that solar and wind will become irrelevant quite rapidly.

  • Charles

    That sort of staggers me. I was cruising around thinking E-Cat would rid us of solar and wind ALTOGETHER.

    • Ivone

      No. It requires energy to start the reactor. So, on a hot African or Indian day, connect the reactor to a medium sized solar farm, say 100,000 watts, and three hours later, the Rossi reactor is up and running.

      • Owen Geiger

        Concentrating solar technology is big in India: Sun Focus quarterly magazine (free online)
        http://www.in.undp.org/content/india/en/home/library/environment_energy/sun-focus/

        The magazine profiles commercial operations for dairies, brick drying, commercial kitchens, power plants, defense, hospitals, every business imaginable even clothes ironing shops. Case studies explain costs, payback period, details. E-Cats could be integrated with these systems.

        • Ivone

          The E – Cat and solar concentrators would be a good match in hot (and not so hot) countries. Would it work in north England, where I live? Winter, solar becomes useless.

          • Owen Geiger

            Of course. One size shoe does not fit all.

        • jousterusa

          As recently reported on the news, the Koch Brothers are bent on ending subsidies for solar and wind, since they are in the fossil fuel business. They are trying to get laws that gives solar users the right to sell power back to the grid repealed state by state. They have not had LENR on their radar yet.

          • bachcole

            This does not endear the Koch Brothers to me. A fair minded approach would be for them to insist that subsidies for solar and wind should be exactly the same as for coal, oil, and gas. But I guess they have abandoned fair mindedness for self-centeredness.

          • Is it possible to abandon something you have never had any concept of?

    • Ophelia Rump

      It will. Once all the solar and wind sites electrical hardware have been repurposed for LENR it will rarely make sense to use wind or solar again. Until then the solar/wind market is a super highway to the grid.

      No one will even notice the panels are standing there disconnected until they start to fall apart.

    • Matt Sevrens

      I actually think it could be a very good idea to couple LENR with solar. Only this solution would enable people to completely disconnect from the grid. Solar provides just enough energy to drive the reaction. The sun is always available as an energy source. If you had no batteries, no electricity, no fuel, you could still use solar drive a LENR. Say you have a feedback loop where one LENR powers another. What happens if both go out? What energy do you have to start a new reaction? The only fuel you could grow locally is wood and that’s solar energy anyway. So, in summation, I think we will never see a world completely devoid of other forms of energy. LENR has the potential to be the most important, but it certainly can gain much from interacting with other technologies.

      • It’s possible that as the technology improves and a working theory emerges, that Rossi reactors will probably be started up from a small battery that recharges as soon as power is produced. For instance, some kind of cascading ‘starter’ might amplify a tiny input to the point where it will kick start the main reaction.

    • Rossi is probably thinking of places where there is little or no fuel, and no electricity, such as middle eastern and African deserts. As far as the rest of us are concerned it seems quite likely that solar and wind will become irrelevant quite rapidly.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Because everything but the solar panel is needed to support the E-Cat, and solar panels can never fully utilize that existing infrastructure.

  • ldt

    Wondering what will the title of the coming report will be
    Perhaps: CONCLUSIVE EVIDENCE OF LENR

    Maybe the professors are still searching for the headline

  • SiriusMan

    Could it be that introducing the E-cat as a technology for ‘enhancing’ existing energy sources (solar, natural gas) is part of a deliberate political strategy? Of course we all know that LENR has the potential to render those sources obsolete, but for IH to claim that from the outset would quickly incur the wrath of large & powerful business interests.

    Coupling the e-cat to solar would also paint LENR as a green-friendly technology, and minimize the backlash to anything with the word ‘nuclear’ in it. The environmental lobby would be more likely to come on board..

  • jousterusa

    Interesting. In a recent note I mentioned that Randell Mills, who was stymied by the fact that he could produce a very powerful “spike” in energy that he could not temper and control, hit on the solution of using photovoltaic (solar) cells to absorb light hotter than the sun and turn it into electricity. I think AR is trying the same thing.

    BTW, for those of you interested in novel sources of energy, there is now a piece on The American Reporter about a 2,300-ft. “Solar Wind Energy Tower” that has been approved for funding and construction at the US-Mexico border in San Luis, AZ, It is the third story down on the yellow ticker, and is a worldwide exclusive. It will be the second-largest human structure on Earth.

    • Ophelia Rump

      This is a very interesting idea. It makes me wonder why we do not hear about this OU device from MIT. A 250% efficient LED light.

      MIT Researchers Create LED Light That Exceeds 100-Percent Efficiency

      by Mark Boyer, 03/24/12

      Read more: MIT Researchers Create More Than 100-Percent Efficient LED Light | Inhabitat – Sustainable Design Innovation, Eco Architecture, Green Building

      http://inhabitat.com/mit-researchers-create-led-light-that-exceeds-100-percent-efficiency/

      • GreenWin

        Academics are finding themselves cornered by their own paint brush. This is the result of declaring hard and fast “laws” in science. But many of these “laws” were invented centuries ago. The notion that they will remain inviolable is like saying, “the climate never changes.”

      • Fortyniner

        Amazing how the reporter skirts around the issue while recording the key facts. Efficiency of over 100% becomes “unity efficiency” rather than ‘over-unity’, and the elephant in the room – the question of where the additional energy might come from – is ignored as if it simply didn’t arise.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          Peter, I understood (by looking at the abstract of the original paper http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.108.097403) that in addition to the electric power input, they also heat the diode to be warmer than ambient, that’s where the energy comes from.

          • Fortyniner

            Thanks, Pekka. That’s rather disappointing, but at least solves the (nonexistent) ‘mystery’! Heat-to-light conversion might turn out to be useful though, if the effect can be moved up the power scale somehow.

  • jousterusa

    Interesting. In a recent note I mentioned that Randell Mills, who was stymied by the fact that he could produce a very powerful “spike” in energy that he could not temper and control, hit on the solution of using photovoltaic (solar) cells to absorb light hotter than the sun and turn it into electricity. I think AR is trying the same thing.

    BTW, for those of you interested in novel sources of energy, there is now a piece on The American Reporter about a 2,300-ft. “Solar Wind Energy Tower” that has been approved for funding and construction at the US-Mexico border in San Luis, AZ, It is the third story down on the yellow ticker, and is a worldwide exclusive. It will be the second-largest human structure on Earth.

    • Ophelia Rump

      This is a very interesting idea. It makes me wonder why we do not hear about this OU device from MIT. A 250% efficient LED light. It was incredibly weak, maybe academia was not ready to question the conservation of energy in public.

      MIT Researchers Create LED Light That Exceeds 100-Percent Efficiency

      by Mark Boyer, 03/24/12

      Read more: MIT Researchers Create More Than 100-Percent Efficient LED Light | Inhabitat – Sustainable Design Innovation, Eco Architecture, Green Building

      http://inhabitat.com/mit-researchers-create-led-light-that-exceeds-100-percent-efficiency/

      • GreenWin

        Academics are finding themselves cornered by their own paint brush. This is the result of declaring hard and fast “laws” in science. But many of these “laws” were invented centuries ago. The notion that they will remain inviolable is like saying, “the climate never changes.”

      • Amazing how the reporter skirts around the issue while recording the key facts. Efficiency of over 100% becomes “unity efficiency” rather than ‘over-unity’, and the elephant in the room – the question of where the additional energy might come from – is ignored as if it simply didn’t arise.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          Peter, I understood (by looking at the abstract of the original paper http://journals.aps.org/prl/abstract/10.1103/PhysRevLett.108.097403) that in addition to the electric power input, they also heat the diode to be warmer than ambient, that’s where the energy comes from.

          • Thanks, Pekka. That’s rather disappointing, but at least solves the (nonexistent) ‘mystery’! Heat-to-light conversion might turn out to be useful though, if the effect can be moved up the power scale somehow.

    • bachcole

      I can’t find it.

  • Omega Z

    It’s highly likely that LENR will take at least 5 years before it starts to take off. The Only existing technology close to fitting the E-cat is likely the existing designs for Nuclear Power Plants.
    But even those would need a major revamp in design.

    It amazes me that back in the 40’s & 50’s, Society could design a project/product & have it under production within a year.
    Today, we can spend a year or even several years talking about something before design even starts.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I am fairly sure that industrial heat has a couple of product designs ready for production.

      I’m waiting to hear about sales. Reports are nice, but the first round funding will not last forever. They need cash flow to establish and maintain credibility.

      • Omega Z

        I think Industrial Heat may be working with several Entities at this time who are studying possibilities. I have my doubts as to them building anything themselves at this time. $11 Million doesn’t go very far these days.

        That & Rossi’s statements seem to imply Licensing Others to develop & build products. I think they are just studying improving the basic Reactor technology for adaption so others can make best use of it. That would be a full time occupation all by itself.

    • Obvious

      I bet if the typical child’s slide or teeter-totter were invented today they would not pass safety testing and never get to market….

  • Omega Z

    It’s highly likely that LENR will take at least 5 years before it starts to take off. The Only existing technology close to fitting the E-cat is likely the existing designs for Nuclear Power Plants.
    But even those would need a major revamp in design.

    It amazes me that back in the 40’s & 50’s, Society could design a project/product & have it under production within a year.
    Today, we can spend a year or even several years talking about something before design even starts.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I am fairly sure that industrial heat has a couple of product designs ready for production.

      I’m waiting to hear about sales. Reports are nice, but the first round funding will not last forever. They need cash flow to establish and maintain credibility.

      • Omega Z

        I think Industrial Heat may be working with several Entities at this time who are studying possibilities. I have my doubts as to them building anything themselves at this time. $11 Million doesn’t go very far these days.

        That & Rossi’s statements seem to imply Licensing Others to develop & build products. I think they are just studying improving the basic Reactor technology for adaption so others can make best use of it. That would be a full time occupation all by itself.

    • Obvious

      I bet if the typical child’s slide or teeter-totter were invented today they would not pass safety testing and never get to market….

  • Omega Z

    Hadn’t thought of that angle. Maybe they see PV becoming efficient enough in the near future to be cost/benefit usable. Especially if a COP of 18 or 20 is obtainable.
    Great starting point in 3rd World Zones even if PV is around 20% efficient.

  • jonnyb

    Not very useful for the U.K. though.

    • Fortyniner

      Aw, c’mon… I’ve seen the yellow thing in the sky at least twice this month.

  • jonnyb

    Not very useful for the U.K. though.

    • Aw, c’mon… I’ve seen the yellow thing in the sky at least twice this month.

  • Ben Kinsling

    I have always been a big Rossi fan, but it seems that unlike most of the people who post here, I am becoming much less enthusiastic as the next 3rd party report nears.

    Why?

    Let’s suppose for argument that the first Levi report is spot on true. Figure 2 in that report indicates that thermal energy output is about 4 times higher than electrical input. That would mean that Rossi has an energy source with astounding energy density that runs on widely available and cheap “fuel”. We know the technical set-up is simple because of pictures of the e-cat, so there is no issue with production or replication. It would therefore be trivial to scale and set up a lucrative energy producing operation. But we know nothing of the sort exists.

    Instead, we hear from the inventor himself that they are “working hard” on applications of all sorts. The lastet is solar+ Ecat. Why? If you had a machine that produces 4 times thermal output from input, there is no need for research. You have a machine that can basically “print money” in the form of energy. IH or Cherokee or Rossi could be making money hand over fist now. But Rossi says they are doing intense R&D. WTF?

    What are they waiting for? If you can turn metaphorically nickle into gold, why are you doing research into turning nickle into nickle plus increased solar voltaic energy? Makes no sense unless the Levi report is not true.

    I have a bad feeling.

    BK

    • Fibber Mcgourlick

      I agree. It doesn’t make any kind of sense whatever. I look forward to the Mid-June 3rd party report by all those independent scientists. If it’s convincing the world will be a different place one day later. If not, I’ll invest in oil.

      • Palmie

        I agree too. I have been monitoring news of LENR for 25 years and this increases my doubts on the whole E-Cat thing.

        • 25 years seems rather a long time to invest in something you apparently doubt is real, especially if you find yourself doubting more as the evidence for LENR mounts. Perhaps when the proof becomes incontrovertible you will move from doubt to outright skepticism?

          • Palmie

            @Fortyniner: The future of humanity is dependent on access to new energy sources. Whether it will be hot fusion, zero point energy or something really exotic I do not know. I do know that I prefer facts over wishful thinking and that E-Cat is not a proven technology.

    • Alain Samoun

      Take this test from from http://lenrftw.net/are_lenr_devices_real.html#.U4NqInZXdA0
      I get a 90 score even including DGT that I have never trusted.

    • “If you had a machine that produces 4 times thermal output from input, there is no need for research”. So in a nutshell, because Industrial Heat are not attempting to sell fireclay-sealed tubes for some unspecified purpose and have opted to develop commercial products instead, you have a ‘bad feeling’ about it? And why do you suppose that your feelings have some bearing on the findings of the Levi report?

      Isn’t it rather more reasonable to assume that Rossi is now IH’s ‘blue sky’ man, and is free to play with whatever ideas occur to him, while professional R&D people get on with the job of developing the first generation product or products? Or is your whole comment just a convoluted way to get to the punch line about the Levi report?

      • roseland67

        Fortyniner,
        Be careful amigo,
        such pointed questions and concerns will get you labeled a
        blasphemer, heretic, outcast and non-believer.
        You will be castigated and ridiculed, then placed
        in “skeptopath hell” for time immemorial.
        Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain,
        simply believe what you are told to believe,
        in due time, all will be well and your faith will be vindicated.
        My spider senses have been “tingling” for years ,
        In Chicago, I wait, hopeful, but I’m not holding my breath.

      • GreenWin

        “Another shill bites the dust.” Apologies to John Deacon.

    • Kevin O

      The reason Rossi & IH are “waiting” is that there’s a huge difference between being able to generate an anomalous effect and having an industrial product that works with five 9’s efficiency.

    • Timar

      Simple answer: you need energy to start up and run the reactors. No problem if there is a grid. There are many areas in the world though, where there is no grid supplying the startup power, especially all those developing countries having ample sunshine. Hence the idea to couple the E-Cat with solar plants makes perfect sense – if you are comitted to let those poeple benefit from the technology who are most in need of it.

      Many people here who don’t understand the rationale behind this supposed R&D effort seem to think that there is nothing beyond the privileged Western world…

    • Omega Z

      “thermal energy output is about 4 times higher than electrical input.”= COP-4

      Scientifically this is fantastic. However in the real world it is only interesting.
      A Heat pump can do the same without the huge expenditures to bring this to market.
      Conversion rate to Electricity isn’t much better then trading dollars for dollars. COP>6 is the minimum to make it Financially worth getting excited about.

  • GreenWin

    If one were challenged to introduce a truly disruptive technology — a transitional hybrid is useful. For example, GM attempted to introduce electric cars in the US with the EV1 back in 1996. While a bit crude technically, it worked fine. But the market and consumers were simply not conditioned to accept it.

    The next year Toyota introduced the first mass-produced hybrid electric / combustion vehicle, the Prius. Prius took off slowly, but with the help of green & celebrity endorsements became the best selling hybrid vehicle in the world. Today, every major auto maker sells a hybrid or full EV.

    Similarly solar and NG are the transitional elements to LENR. Solar is an acceptable way to wean the West off of fossil/fission fuels. A solar+storage E-Cat is a hybrid gimmick. But solar and NG distributed energy resources are already shaking the utilities industry monopoly:

    http://blogs.barrons.com/incomeinvesting/2014/05/23/barclays-downgrades-electric-utility-bonds-sees-viable-solar-competition/

    The philosophers behind this transition path have made a wise choice.

  • GreenWin

    If one were challenged to introduce a truly disruptive technology — a transitional hybrid is useful. For example, GM attempted to introduce electric cars in the US with the EV1 back in 1996. While a bit crude technically, it worked fine. But the market and consumers were simply not conditioned to accept it.

    The next year Toyota introduced the first mass-produced hybrid electric / combustion vehicle, the Prius. Prius took off slowly, but with the help of green & celebrity endorsements became the best selling hybrid vehicle in the world. Today, every major auto maker sells a hybrid or full EV.

    Similarly solar and NG are the transitional elements to LENR. Solar is an acceptable way to wean the West off of fossil/fission fuels. A solar+storage E-Cat is a hybrid gimmick. But solar and NG distributed energy resources are already shaking the utilities industry monopoly:

    http://blogs.barrons.com/incomeinvesting/2014/05/23/barclays-downgrades-electric-utility-bonds-sees-viable-solar-competition/

    The philosophers behind this transition path have made a wise choice.

  • Palmie

    I agree too. I have been monitoring news of LENR for 25 years and this increases my doubts on the whole E-Cat thing.

    • Fortyniner

      25 years seems rather a long time to invest in something you apparently doubt is real, especially if you find yourself doubting more as the evidence for LENR mounts. Perhaps when the proof becomes incontrovertible you will move from doubt to outright skepticism?

  • Barbierir

    A radio serie in 3 parts, it sounds as a full front attack against the swedes who supported Rossi, (with warm regards by Gary Wright):

    “Medier blir medspelare i misstänkt energibluff
    Vi på Medierna i P1 har tidigare berättat om tidningen Ny Teknik och
    kritiken mot hur dom i många dussin okritiska artiklar skildrat
    italienaren Andrea Rossi, som påstår sig ha uppfunnit en maskin som kan
    lösa världens alla energiproblem – men inte låter någon få titta in i
    lådan och se hur det skulle gå till. Nu har Vetenskapsradions Marcus
    Hansson gjort en stor granskning och kan visa nya fakta om vilken stor roll svenska journalister och fysiker spelat för Andrea Rossis verksamhet.”

    http://sverigesradio.se/sida/avsnitt/372368?programid=2795

    http://freeenergyscams.com/andrea-rossi-new-3-part-story-starting-on-tuesday-27th/

    • Freethinker

      They have an audio file there, but there is also an indication that there will be more the Tuesday 27th.

      The investigative journalism does not go any further than simply reciting classic patho-skeptic stuff, and interview with disgruntled journalists who has not been invited to demo’s.

      Major point is that Rossi today show the same modus operandi in his schemes, setting up a “journal” and using media to help perpetrate the scam, as he did at the time of Petroldragon. They also play heavily on the history of Rossi with Petroldragon, the environmental pollution, and that he was sent to jail. Also they made a major point of the fact that Rossi is NOT an “engineer” by training.

      I further find that they have a go at NyTeknik, Mats Lewan, Essen&Kullander et.al, etc, etc and also SVT for having a positive TV show segment on it last year.

      The journalism is of low level, more looking after framing than objective and balanced reporting. Quite in the spirit of Mr Wright’s creations.

      I wonder what the coming program will contain then. Likely they will invoke any and all “new” and old findings of Mr Wright and his associate. Likely they will sound very persuasive and matter of fact. Note Mr Wright’s comment: “We have been in communication with Marcus Hansson and expect this show to cover much new ground.”

      Its a pity that they chose to do this. It could be seen as a timely attack with the new report being peer-reviewed this very moment. But not to worry. Likely, the joke will be on them. 😉

      • thanks for the report.

        Of course they did not invite Mats? living too far!

  • Barbierir

    A radio serie in 3 parts, it sounds as a full front attack against the swedes who supported Rossi, (with warm regards by Gary Wright):

    “Medier blir medspelare i misstänkt energibluff
    Vi på Medierna i P1 har tidigare berättat om tidningen Ny Teknik och
    kritiken mot hur dom i många dussin okritiska artiklar skildrat
    italienaren Andrea Rossi, som påstår sig ha uppfunnit en maskin som kan
    lösa världens alla energiproblem – men inte låter någon få titta in i
    lådan och se hur det skulle gå till. Nu har Vetenskapsradions Marcus
    Hansson gjort en stor granskning och kan visa nya fakta om vilken stor roll svenska journalister och fysiker spelat för Andrea Rossis verksamhet.”

    http://sverigesradio.se/sida/avsnitt/372368?programid=2795

    http://freeenergyscams.com/andrea-rossi-new-3-part-story-starting-on-tuesday-27th/

    • Freethinker

      They have an audio file there, but there is also an indication that there will be more the Tuesday 27th.

      The investigative journalism does not go any further than simply reciting classic patho-skeptic stuff, and interview with disgruntled journalists who has not been invited to demo’s.

      Major point is that Rossi today show the same modus operandi in his schemes, setting up a “journal” and using media to help perpetrate the scam, as he did at the time of Petroldragon. They also play heavily on the history of Rossi with Petroldragon, the environmental pollution, and that he was sent to jail. Also they made a major point of the fact that Rossi is NOT an “engineer” by training.

      I further find that they have a go at NyTeknik, Mats Lewan, Essen&Kullander et.al, etc, etc and also SVT for having a positive TV show segment on it last year.

      The journalism is of low level, more looking after framing than objective and balanced reporting. Quite in the spirit of Mr Wright’s creations.

      I wonder what the coming program will contain then. Likely they will invoke any and all “new” and old findings of Mr Wright and his associate. Likely they will sound very persuasive and matter of fact. Note Mr Wright’s comment: “We have been in communication with Marcus Hansson and expect this show to cover much new ground.”

      Its a pity that they chose to do this. It could be seen as a timely attack with the new report being peer-reviewed this very moment. But not to worry. Likely, the joke will be on them. 😉

      • thanks for the report.

        Of course they did not invite Mats? living too far!

  • Alain Samoun

    Take this test from from http://lenrftw.net/are_lenr_devices_real.html#.U4NqInZXdA0
    I get a 90 score even including DGT that I have never trusted.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Is there a massive photon release in the E-Cat reaction?

    This idea seems a little wild to me, but if they could produce light directly from the heat or the reaction, then they could just dump that light on existing solar arrays day and night.

    Solar panel record efficiency of 44.7% was measured at a concentration of 297 suns.

    A Line Inverter is about 95% efficient.

    So in theory you could get about 30% of the light power you put on the solar array output as market ready electricity. That seems competitive with LENR to steam.

    If you can pump the power into a plasma discharge you could power sodium plasma lamps with a density much higher than sunlight. And those output extremely little heat, most of the power comes out as light.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Is there a massive photon release in the E-Cat reaction?
    Or a plasma discharge?
    Could they make it produce plasma?

    This idea seems a little wild to me, but if they could produce light directly from the heat or the reaction, then they could just dump that light on existing solar arrays day and night.

    Solar panel record efficiency of 44.7% was measured at a concentration of 297 suns.

    A Line Inverter is about 95% efficient.

    So in theory you could get about 30% of the light power you put on the solar array output as market ready electricity. That seems competitive with LENR to steam.

    If you can pump the power into a plasma discharge you could power sodium plasma lamps with a density much higher than sunlight. And those output extremely little heat, most of the power comes out as light.

    • bachcole

      Sounds good, except that I worry about the longevity of the solar cells. The E-Cat is not going to play nice and put out only visible light; it is also going to put out some nasty stuff that will degrade the solar cell. But perhaps there is a way around that, in which case there would be far fewer moving parts than heat to steam.

      • Ophelia Rump

        It would require a very small solar cell surface area.
        This would make the solar cells less costly to burn through.

        I am thinking an optimal configuration of lamp to solar cells would be a cube somewhere in size between one and six inches. With a sodium plasma lamp putting out enough light to light a ten foot by ten foot room to several times the brightness of the sun. About one thousand watts. So at six inches cubed you would have six one quarter square foot surfaces, or 1.5 square feet of solar cell per 1000 watts input.

        The solar cells would need to be completely recyclable and environmentally friendly. I actually think that would be the biggest challenge.
        Making it infinitely sustainable, so it does not become a commitment to gradual but perpetual self destruction. Whatever becomes a part of this needs to be infinitely sustainable or it could easily become mans last mistake.

        It could take some engineering to get the surface to light to heat dissipation ratios in balance, but I think its straight-forward.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Good Point

  • Bernie777

    Good question Frank, from Rossi’s answer it is clear he is developing solar/E-Cat reactor for places without consistent electrical power and therefore the reactor will be a source of water.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Good question Frank, from Rossi’s answer it is clear he is developing solar/E-Cat reactor for places without consistent electrical power and therefore the reactor will be a source of water.

  • Fortyniner

    “If you had a machine that produces 4 times thermal output from input, there is no need for research”. So in a nutshell, because Industrial Heat are not attempting to sell fireclay-sealed tubes for some unspecified purpose and have opted to develop commercial products instead, you have a ‘bad feeling’ about it? And why do you suppose that your feelings have some bearing on the findings of the Levi report?

    Isn’t it rather more reasonable to assume that Rossi is now IH’s ‘blue sky’ man, and is free to play with whatever ideas occur to him, while professional R&D people get on with the job of developing the first generation product or products? Or is your comment just a convoluted way to get to the punch line about the Levi report?

    • GreenWin

      “Another shill bites the dust.” Apologies to John Deacon.

  • Fortyniner

    It’s possible that as the technology improves and a working theory emerges, that Rossi reactors will probably be started up from a small battery that recharges as soon as power is produced. For instance, some kind of cascading ‘starter’ might amplify a tiny input to the point where it will kick start the main reaction.

  • Fortyniner

    Is it possible to abandon something you have never had any concept of?

  • Bernie777

    Good Point

  • Kevin O

    The reason Rossi & IH are “waiting” is that there’s a huge difference between being able to generate an anomalous effect and having an industrial product that works with five 9’s efficiency.

  • Facepalm
  • Freethinker

    There is a new radio show published on the swedish Vetenskapsradion.

    I have made a translation:

    http://bit.ly/1inae44

    In my opinion example of very bad journalism, a very derogatory piece. Judge for your self. There are great support for LENR in general and ECAT specifically in Sweden, but the skeptopaths are also present, and they are not without influence – apparently.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      This appears to be a case of slander. Rossi should think about a libel suit.

      • TomR

        Yes he should, it might head some others off at the pass.

    • only that ? 😯
      thanks for the transcript…
      what is S Coyaud doing there ?
      Is the journalist of her family to only hear her ? not even Mats, not even Krivit, levi, Essen, Hoistad, Tjonborn, some are even local…

      laughable. even for a skeptic, laughable.

      Should remember that journalis to make a shame of him later.
      I thi,k that if as a community we cannot help LENR to get out of the trench, as a citizen organization we can organize a citizen tribunal to shame a dozen of pathetic deniesr,
      from Lewis,Hansen,Huizenga, Parks,Taubes, Morrison, then Coyaud, that journalist, Luc Allemand, Futura Science mods, few watchdogs…
      Not for any current reason, but so that next time the next denier lane and their watchdogs, know they will be toasted.

  • Freethinker

    There is a new radio show published on the swedish Vetenskapsradion.
    http://t.sr.se/SJA6RJ

    I have made a translation (Note: from the audio file):

    http://bit.ly/1inae44

    It matches the text on the webpage, so google translate will likely do a fair job.

    In my opinion example of very bad journalism, a very derogatory piece. Judge for your self. There are great support for LENR in general and ECAT specifically in Sweden, but the skeptopaths are also present, and they are not without influence – apparently.

    • Barbierir

      Thanks, it’s really biased

    • Andreas Moraitis

      This appears to be a case of slander. Rossi should think about a libel suit.

      • TomR

        Yes he should, it might head some others off at the pass.

    • only that ? 😯
      thanks for the transcript…
      what is S Coyaud doing there ?
      Is the journalist of her family to only hear her ? not even Mats, not even Krivit, levi, Essen, Hoistad, Tjonborn, some are even local…

      laughable. even for a skeptic, laughable.

      Should remember that journalis to make a shame of him later.
      I thi,k that if as a community we cannot help LENR to get out of the trench, as a citizen organization we can organize a citizen tribunal to shame a dozen of pathetic deniesr,
      from Lewis,Hansen,Huizenga, Parks,Taubes, Morrison, then Coyaud, that journalist, Luc Allemand, Futura Science mods, few watchdogs…
      Not for any current reason, but so that next time the next denier lane and their watchdogs, know they will be toasted.

    • bachcole

      I don’t need to read that. It will only upset me and will not change my mind. If there were a chance that it would change my mind, then reading it might have some value; but there is no chance.

  • Freethinker

    Still more…

    http://t.sr.se/1nPrvXl

    “The blind fate in cold fusion”

  • Freethinker

    Still more…

    http://t.sr.se/1nPrvXl

    “The blind fate in cold fusion”

    And it is REALLY full of it ….

  • GregL

    I find this news deeply worrying.
    I can see no engineering reasons to fit ecat and solar together – they operate quite differently.
    If Rossi really is pursuing this line of approach, then the only thing I can infer is that ecat cannot stand on its own – so it does not work as we would all hope it should

  • GregL

    I find this news deeply worrying.
    I can see no engineering reasons to fit ecat and solar together – they operate quite differently.
    If Rossi really is pursuing this line of approach, then the only thing I can infer is that ecat cannot stand on its own – so it does not work as we would all hope it should

    • bachcole

      Stop worrying. The E-Cat needs a heat source kick start. Rossi is keen on supplying E-Cats to the extremely poor, like in Africa. A solar kick starter makes perfect sense for all kinds of equatorial and desert regions.

  • Omega Z

    “thermal energy output is about 4 times higher than electrical input.”= COP-4

    Scientifically this is fantastic. However in the real world it is only interesting.
    A Heat pump can do the same without the huge expenditures to bring this to market.
    Conversion rate to Electricity isn’t much better then trading dollars for dollars. COP>6 is the minimum to make it Financially worth getting excited about.