Veteran Energy Securities Analyst Sees LENR as Disruptive Energy Source

There’s a very interesting article posted on this week’s Energy Musings web site by G. Allen Brooks which deals with the investment implications of LENR. Mr. Brooks is managing editor of the web site and has been involved in the energy and investment industries as a securities analyst, consultant in the energy field, and an oilfield services company manager.

In the June 10th ‘Musings from the Oil Patch’, Brooks looks at what might be the world’s next powerful energy source, and considers the case for LENR filling that role.

After reviewing some of the important developments in the field of LENR over the last few years — mentioning Mitsubishi, Toyota, Rossi and others — Brooks comes to a conclusion that looks like it could have come from any one of many commenters here on E-Cat World:

More research needs to be done, but momentum behind LENR appears to be growing. Why? Clearly, LENR is a disruptive technology. As was suggested to us in our conversation with our scientist contact, imagine if you could have a small unit in your garage that could produce electricity to power your house and automobile with a material source that cost $10 and lasted for six months while producing no dangerous waste. Would that revolutionize the power business? Certainly. Could small LENR units be built to power vehicles? Maybe. When will we know? Not for a while, and maybe never. If it works, we are likely talking about a decade-long development period. While that appears a long time, imagine you were at Drake’s well in Pennsylvania in 1859 when whale oil was still the preferred lighting fuel. Would you have embraced oil? We urge readers to pay attention to LENR’s development as it may signal the next energy transformation.

I’m not sure how influential G. Allen Brooks is within the energy or investment industries, but he has had a long career with a wide range of experience (see here for a resume), and seems to be a level-headed analyst who can recognize the potential of LENR even though right now it may not be particularly fashionable to say so. I think it’s likely that many others in his field will begin to make similar observations.

Thanks to Tom Whipple for passing this link along to me.

  • LCD

    10 year development period? Hard to see how. Maybe only if it works but not very well and therefor it needs more research that takes another 9 years. Otherwise there is nothing to this technology that warrants a decade development period.

    More like a decade to completely get rid of oil as a primary source of fuel for anything.

    • Ophelia Rump

      If Cherokee manufactures turnkey factories, for sale to partners who license the technology, this could be the fastest transitioning revolution in history.

      • Daniel Maris

        I agree that Darden could be crucial here, assuming the technology is real. I think he’s on a mission – to decarbonise energy – and he is looking for the fastest way to do that. Siting production in China is probably the fastest way to do it globally.

        • Ophelia Rump

          Darden is capable of jump starting this with billions of dollars of investments from the funds he already manages. Cherokee could potentially produce hundreds of manufacturing sites tooled for LENR production at customer sites each year. LENR factories could pop up like McDonalds restaurants, across the globe, where Cherokee provides the tooled up factory, turnkey and the license to use the technology.

          • Daniel Maris

            Exciting times! Just the small matter of verification and a pilot installation to be got out of the way… LOL

          • Ophelia Rump

            It would not surprise me if the pilot is already operational and has been for some time. Verification is a sideshow.

            I think the Olephant really exists, and one is waiting in the wings to be introduced.

            Exciting yes! There is much to be done, but so much has already been done. This is not some spark machine, with decades of research looming before it is practical.

          • Owen Geiger

            It would be interesting to hear how other blog readers plan to capitalize on LENR. Do you plan to profit from LENR?

          • Daniel Maris

            I think investing tends to be a family tradition in rich families, certainly in the UK. In the USA I believe it has always been easier to invest smaller sums.

            I personally wouldn’t invest anything until I’d seen some positive signs from a pilot installation. Then the market will go crazy and probably end up overvaluing LENR stock – that’s when you want to invest: immediately after firm operational proof.

          • Owen Geiger

            It seems Rossi is in the process of opening an operational plant to the public (invited journalists and VIPs). This combined with positive test results should attract massive investment. I suspect the first round of investment to come from major players.

          • Charles

            As always, initial investments will be for the select few. Think IPOs as a guide.

          • GreenWin

            Owen, an easy play is short utility bond futures, and or the underlying stock. Centralized power, i.e. electric utilities, will see a slow but continual sell off as investors realize the energy market is going to dramatically change.

            Also, IH seems open to honest investors. They will need $B in order to meet a rush for licensing E-Cat technology. The original E-Cat licensees may also be interested in partnerships. And R&D like SRI – Mike McKubre would certainly entertain investment for profit – at this stage.

          • Owen Geiger

            That sounds good. Imagine having McKubre as one of the testers or reviewers on the upcoming report. His support could be worth a billion in additional investment at least. Any inside info on what he’s been up to lately?

          • GreenWin

            None. But Dr. McKubre is IMO a bonafide hero in this tale. He also appears to understand the importance of non-monopolized knowledge – for humanitarian reason. Our support of this tech for the greater good IS INVESTMENT. And, when the returns start coming in, no one who has helped the LENR effort will be left behind. We reap what we sew. 🙂

          • Owen Geiger

            There may not be any intel linking McKubre to this report yet, but it’s still a possibility. Rossi and IH know how much clout he carries and they can certainly afford to pay him well. McKubre could have his name (and SRI) on the report to cap a lifetime of work in the field. He’s probably too busy to be a tester, but he could be a reviewer. We’ll know soon enough.

          • GreenWin

            I think a prudent fund manager would not expose his clients to high risk as in LENR. What Darden can do is let his VC and Street friends know that something exceedingly wonderful is on the way. And should they want IN — equity is available.

      • Owen Geiger

        This is what I’m hoping for. Maybe only a few factories will be built at first until the technology is more refined. Eventually dozens or even hundreds of factories could be built simultaneously. This might sound far fetched to some, but think about all the different applications — different size reactors for cars, boats, large ships, military, planes, etc. The world runs on energy and the demand will be nearly limitless.

    • at normal pace 10 years is a good pace.
      the prediction of some professional is that technically it should take 10 years to move from today to LENR energy./..

      however during those 10years, the companies will be desperate because nobody will want to invest in anything that last more than few years.
      no car, no boiler, no oven, no factory, no busses, no train, no powerplant…

      All those long investment product will be treated like kleenex, choosing the cheapest, and keeping the old one until it collapse.

      sure the manufacturing companies will panic. they will make research .

      I see a plan in few steps :

      first endure a frozen market fro few years and avoid bankruptcy while preparing next phase. Start designing all the product for the 10 next years.
      first design and sell cheap Kleenex products that will cost nothing, last few years, and be inefficient.
      meanwhile try to design a “LENr-Ready” device that will be ready to include a LENR reactor when affordable and reliable…. sell it as soon as possible.

      meanwhile develop a lENr technology and try niche market where the regulation is less strict than consumer market, and propose a full LENr replacement, for early users.

      with that experience, design a consumer market reactor that fit into your “LENR-Ready”
      meanwhile develop a full LENR version of your product and flood the market with it before the competitors.

      It can take 10 years, but the company will see mostly innovation cycles of 18-24month and total reengineering…

      there will be blood.

      • Ophelia Rump

        AlainCo, I think you overstate the devaluation of other energy driven products.
        Products will become LENR Ready!
        There will be LENR to XXXX conversions like LENR to Hydrogen, LENR to Battery Electric. The other fuels will progressively devaluate and their production die off over time.

        • maybe.
          Intermediate energies, like electric batteries, like hydrogen of bio//synfuel may be the transitions product I talk about.

          in that case the emergencies to protect the market is to develop LENR-generated old fashioned intermediate energy, that will be sold much cheaper.

          If those intermediates are not cheap enough, people will wait for the LENR pure-player version.

          Note that this intermediate energy is not immediate, not only to create, but also to adapt the consumer.

          I place it in the intermediate phase of my scenario…

          For example electric cars will be LENr recharged by LENR powerplant, retrofitted from coal…
          Home boilers will consume LENr electricity from the grid, or hydrogen gas from LENR, or LENr synfuel or syngas.
          Plane, trucks, cars, trains cars will consume synfuel or electricity…

          but this is expensive and soon many people will refuse to buy an electric car with a price just half of gasoline.
          They will keep their old gasoline car and wait for a LENR-car hybrid.

          in a way this looks like a depressive deflation (people waiting fro price to go down), until the LENR industry catch-up and create good deflationary growth.

      • bitplayer

        Forwarded to people in investment community.

        • Pierre Ordinaire

          GreenWin says:

          “Mary Yugo is a Senior Skep like Big (Racial Slurrist) Willy. She says we shouldn’t worry ’bout utilities death spiral ’cause Warren Buffet’s a fan and investor.

          “British banking giant Barclays downgraded the entire electricity-generating sector of the US high-grade corporate bond marketbecause of the challenges posed by renewables and the fact that the market isn’t pricing in those challenges.The thesis from the Barclays credit team is that it’s not so much regulations that will choke off coal burning, but technological advances. And it’s serious money Barclays is talking about.

          According to the Barclays data, electricity utilities represent about 7.5 per cent of the investment-grade corporate bond market in the US, or about $280 billion in outstanding debt.

          What makes the report particularly interesting is that it’s driven by hard-nosed financial considerations rather than the ideology surrounding renewable energy.

          Barclays’ credit team is advising its investors to stop viewing the utilities as a “sturdy and defensive subset of the investment grade universe”.http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-04/technology-not-regulation-will-kill-coal-fired-power/5500356

          If our guys hadn’t been so blind-boozled by Rosie’s hot pipe, we coulda seen this coming.”

          • Owen Geiger

            Mary Yugo’s advice will drive the blind into the ditch.

          • GreenWin

            The Barclays Bank downgrade is significant. In addition the recent advice from Investment University suggests the US Federal Reserve Bank (aka Big Dog) has withdrawn support of these utilities coupons. IF the Fed (USA) and Barclays (UK) are walking away from a major capital return instrument like utility bonds – there’s something afoot.

            “It’s Time to Abandon Utility Stocks”
            Investment University 5/29/2014

            “The key takeaway here is to reduce your exposure to utility stocks quickly in order to avoid further losses. There are plenty of opportunistic areas in the market to invest in, but the utility sector should be avoided at all costs.”

            http://www.investmentu.com/article/detail/33793/abandon-utility-stocks#.U44EbmTCXX4

          • Ophelia Rump

            And if LENR puts them so deep in the black that they spit silver dollars after retrofits, the market will adjust.

          • mytakeis

            The national security, national interest, derives from personal interest. The power to do and be whatever you chose (a self-owned LENR device), is basic to personal interest, and not only worth it, but essential to fight for. Definitely not a time to passively accept any accommodation the energy industry deems appropriate for you.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Yes, China would approach this like a war. Indeed it could become financial warfare at some level, if any country were foolish enough to ignore the reality of it.

        Poor North Korea, Maybe Poor Russia.

        • georgehants

          I must now ask the question again! do the people on page see that the situation regarding Cold Fusion is no different to the science of UFO’s The Placebo Effect, Telepathy, NDE etc. etc.
          The Questions you are asking today about the debunking and not following clear Evidence is as clear in these subjects as Cold Fusion.
          Can we at last wake-up to the psychological manipulation of the authorities to make all these subjects into things to be laughed at.
          Cold Fusion is no different to these subjects that when looked at sensibly, the Evidence is clear that a phenomenon is at work that cannot be explained by the religious scientific elite.

          • robyn wyrick

            Hey George, thought I’d pipe in here. Hope it’s welcome.

            I think there are important parallels between the history of CF, and that of other pursuits (UFOs, Telepathy, Astrology, etc.) but there are any number of false starts in the history of science (or religion or the occult, etc.), and redeeming one does not redeem all.

            For instance, my father-in-law was a farmer in Pennsylvania, and he swore by Dowsing. In his experience (and the traditions he inherited) Dowsing was a real thing. I don’t think so, and neither does almost any respected member of the scientific community.

            And there it certainly shares a theme with Cold Fusion.

            The great majority of scientists will claim that we have a working theory (the Standard Model) that has been reinforced by countless experiments and observations – and that Cold Fusion doesn’t fit in the Standard Model. Peter Hagelstein has also said as much.

            And you and I think that the specific clues we have followed suggest that – Standard Model or not, scientific opinion or not – Cold Fusion is real.

            So, I think there it is fair for honest people to explore unpopular notions or possibilities – sometimes there is something to find. But I think it is also fair to say that even the most open minded of us have our limits (the Mayan Calendar end of the world, for instance).

            And I think it is not particularly fair to lump together those who don’t find credence with the evidence of Cold Fusion as pathoskeptics. Nor do I think it’s fair to suggest that if one believes the evidence around Cold Fusion, that is it unreasonable to disbelieve evidence around any other pursuit.

            That’s why I prefer – on this website – to shy away from debates on Climate Change, UFOs, etc.

            (PS: that said, I tend to think there could be something to the UFO thing.)

          • georgehants

            First I must apologise to Admin for my straying into these subjects that I find so connected to the Cold Fusion fiasco.
            Second can I thank robyn above and Stephen below for being good scientists and replying in a way that would have meant Cold Fusion would have been fairly and competently investigated by the fools of science 25 years ago.
            —–
            I only say robyn that until these subjects are competently and scientifically investigated then all ridiculous “opinion” is unscientific.
            I have investigated the Evidence in many cases and it is clear that a genuine phenomenon is at work.
            Not wishing to go further on these pages I will put up just one link, if any scientist does not think that link demands further investigation, then like the debunkers of Cold Fusion, I laugh at them.
            I could put up just as professional reports and Evidence on all the subjects I discuss but this will do.
            The French COMETA report. 1999
            http://www.ufocasebook.com/cometamain.html

          • bachcole

            I agree almost entirely. We have enough stigma to deal with now just with believing that cold fusion is real. When LENR is proven, then we can go after them for being too cowardly to investigate other fringe phenomena (including dowsing, which I believe may be true.).

          • Ophelia Rump

            How much more will every person on earth be free to pursue those interests, when there is almost no cost to electricity, or heat or fuel?

            It depends upon if the power is sold to every one and metered, or if it is of your own local or individual production.

          • AB

            Also important is the tone these topics are discussed. I’m not really interested in daily rants and accusations about ANY topic.

          • bachcole

            The similarity that I see is that they are all subjects that scientists are too AFRAID to investigate. Whether they are true or not remains to be seen.

          • Ophelia Rump

            I believe that science understands and respects the power of the Placebo Effect. It is remarkable.
            The other things you mentioned are not well enough understood for science to even approach at this point in our understanding, perhaps you give authorities too much credit.
            If you do not know how to meter and measure something quantify and objectify it, science looses traction.

            I think old physics professors are difficult to describe as elites, so the use of the word elite was perhaps not the word you are looking for perhaps senior.

          • georgehants

            Ophelia, I read your comments, as I read all comments, somethings you say I agree with, some I do not, but I find it pointless to waste time on an incorrect interpretation of a point somebody is making to debate the Symantec’s etc.
            I will cover just one point, I said ——-
            “cannot be explained by the religious scientific elite.” ——-
            you then try to correct me —- your correction is in error.
            I mean the scientific people with the power to influence the thinking of those unable to think for themselves, they give religious like edicts that, for instance Cold Fusion is impossible, the unthinking sheep then follow dutifully.

            That makes them an “elite”, if they are administrators, teachers, journal editors, scientists with qualifications etc. etc.
            The only antidote to this incompetent inability to follow Evidence regarding Cold Fusion or any of the subjects I mention above is for scientists to disregard the religious “expert opinions” of this elite and scientifically Research the Evidence themselves.

          • Ophelia Rump

            I just do not see how it is in any way shape or form elitest.
            They are telling the next generation of their field not to chase unicorns, or delusions. It seems very easy to derail a career on a subject of little importance and no prior substantiation. A path like that once set upon makes you either a popular celebrity or grantless.

    • Job001

      It will take much longer, people are not going to throw away cars and investments because as LENR use increases oil will become cheaper.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Synthetic Oil manufacture. Brilliant!

        • Omega Z

          It’s all done with electric today, But it does take the equivalent of 6 gallons of a 40 gallon barrel for processing. With some people switching to electric cars & the savings of processing, Gas prices will decline reducing the need for others to switch to electric. It’s all about cost/benefit. People seldom opt to pay more overall. There needs to be a gain.

      • mcloki

        New gas powered car sales will crater immediately. People will hold off buying Petrol powered cars in lieu of electric cars, All you;re replacing in a hybrid is the power source. the major engineering. the drivetrain is done. You’re just dropping in a new “gas” tank and replacing some of the batteries. Keeping a few for spare, onboard electronics.

      • BroKeeper

        Especially when oil plummets making it much more attractive for legacy vehicles and oil furnaces. Cost of replacing new trucks is expensive. However, if oil drops below a dollar it will be hard pressed to convert immediately.

        • Omega Z

          That will be a realty. Those who can’t afford the more expensive vehicles will be less pressed to do so when fuel prices decline. This will continue for some time until the dealers start raising prices to offset profit loss from the reduced demand.

      • GreenWin

        Sales of EVs is already on the rise. Consider, $4.00/gallon fuel cost, vs. $0.01/kW. In the end, residential LENR units will charge EVs overnight at a cost of less than $0.25 per “full tank” of battery charge. Tesla S gets about 200 miles per charge, Nissan Leaf 85m, Chevy VOLT, 38m (all EV).

        http://insideevs.com/electric-vehicle-sales-for-the-us-hit-all-time-high-in-may/

        • Job001

          Agree, more expensive cars to minimize more expensive fuel. With $0.40/gallon LENR+ synthetic fuel least expensive cars might be the optimum choice for long range especially.
          Humanity has been building a lot of infrastructure due to expensive fuel. Some excess infrastructure may not be long term permanent.

  • LCD

    10 year development period? Hard to see how. Maybe only if it works but not very well and therefor it needs more research that takes another 9 years. Otherwise there is nothing to this technology that warrants a decade development period.

    More like a decade to completely get rid of oil as a primary source of fuel for anything.

    • Ophelia Rump

      If Cherokee manufactures turnkey factories, for sale to partners who license the technology, this could be the fastest transitioning revolution in history.

      It is what Darden does.
      If you do not need to manufacture the product, only the instructions, there is no bound to the rate of dissemination except demand.

      • Owen Geiger

        This is what I’m hoping for. Maybe only a few factories will be built at first until the technology is more refined. Eventually dozens or even hundreds of factories could be built simultaneously. This might sound far fetched to some, but think about all the different applications — different size reactors for cars, boats, large ships, military, planes, etc. The world runs on energy and the demand will be nearly limitless.

    • at normal pace 10 years is a good pace.
      the prediction of some professional is that technically it should take 10 years to move from today to LENR energy./..

      however during those 10years, the companies will be desperate because nobody will want to invest in anything that last more than few years.
      no car, no boiler, no oven, no factory, no busses, no train, no powerplant…

      All those long investment product will be treated like kleenex, choosing the cheapest, and keeping the old one until it collapse.

      sure the manufacturing companies will panic. they will make research .

      I see a plan in few steps :

      first endure a frozen market fro few years and avoid bankruptcy while preparing next phase. Start designing all the product for the 10 next years.
      first design and sell cheap Kleenex products that will cost nothing, last few years, and be inefficient.
      meanwhile try to design a “LENr-Ready” device that will be ready to include a LENR reactor when affordable and reliable…. sell it as soon as possible.

      meanwhile develop a lENr technology and try niche market where the regulation is less strict than consumer market, and propose a full LENr replacement, for early users.

      with that experience, design a consumer market reactor that fit into your “LENR-Ready”
      meanwhile develop a full LENR version of your product and flood the market with it before the competitors.

      It can take 10 years, but the company will see mostly innovation cycles of 18-24month and total reengineering…

      there will be blood.

      • Ophelia Rump

        AlainCo, I think you overstate the devaluation of other energy driven products.
        Products will become LENR Ready!
        There will be LENR to XXXX conversions like LENR to Hydrogen, LENR to Battery Electric. The other fuels will progressively devaluate and their production die off over time. Markets are extremely good at transitioning.
        Where one business goes under 100 micro businesses will spring up, as individuals are empowered.

        But, yes, there will be revoluton!

        • maybe.
          Intermediate energies, like electric batteries, like hydrogen of bio//synfuel may be the transitions product I talk about.

          in that case the emergencies to protect the market is to develop LENR-generated old fashioned intermediate energy, that will be sold much cheaper.

          If those intermediates are not cheap enough, people will wait for the LENR pure-player version.

          Note that this intermediate energy is not immediate, not only to create, but also to adapt the consumer.

          I place it in the intermediate phase of my scenario…

          For example electric cars will be LENr recharged by LENR powerplant, retrofitted from coal…
          Home boilers will consume LENr electricity from the grid, or hydrogen gas from LENR, or LENr synfuel or syngas.
          Plane, trucks, cars, trains cars will consume synfuel or electricity…

          but this is expensive and soon many people will refuse to buy an electric car with a price just half of gasoline.
          They will keep their old gasoline car and wait for a LENR-car hybrid.

          in a way this looks like a depressive deflation (people waiting fro price to go down), until the LENR industry catch-up and create good deflationary growth.

    • Job001

      It will take much longer, people are not going to throw away cars and investments because as LENR use increases oil will become cheaper.
      In fact, cheap LENR energy will allow manufacture of synthetic oil made without FF so that existing infrastructure is useable. Secondary uses will also take more time to evolve.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Synthetic Oil manufacture. Brilliant!
        Add retrofitting existing refineries with LENR to increase profitability.
        No more burning the product to refine the product.

        • Omega Z

          It’s all done with electric today, But it does take the equivalent of 6 gallons of a 40 gallon barrel for processing. With some people switching to electric cars & the savings of processing, Gas prices will decline reducing the need for others to switch to electric. It’s all about cost/benefit. People seldom opt to pay more overall. There needs to be a gain.

      • mcloki

        New gas powered car sales will crater immediately. People will hold off buying Petrol powered cars in lieu of electric cars, All you;re replacing in a hybrid is the power source. the major engineering. the drivetrain is done. You’re just dropping in a new “gas” tank and replacing some of the batteries. Keeping a few for spare, onboard electronics.

      • Brokeeper

        Especially when oil plummets making it much more attractive for legacy vehicles and oil furnaces. Cost of replacing new trucks is expensive. However, if oil drops below a dollar it will be hard pressed to convert immediately.

        • Omega Z

          That will be a realty. Those who can’t afford the more expensive vehicles will be less pressed to do so when fuel prices decline. This will continue for some time until the dealers start raising prices to offset profit loss from the reduced demand.

      • GreenWin

        Sales of EVs is already on the rise. Consider, $4.00/gallon fuel cost, vs. $0.01/kW. In the end, residential LENR units will charge EVs overnight at a cost of less than $0.25 per “full tank” of battery charge. Tesla S gets about 200 miles per charge, Nissan Leaf 85m, Chevy VOLT, 38m (all EV).

        http://insideevs.com/electric-vehicle-sales-for-the-us-hit-all-time-high-in-may/

        • Job001

          Agree, more expensive cars to minimize more expensive fuel. With $0.40/gallon LENR+ synthetic fuel least expensive cars might be the optimum choice for long range especially.
          Humanity has been building a lot of infrastructure due to expensive fuel. Some excess infrastructure may not be long term permanent.

      • Fibb

        This is actually the biggest error people make around LENR. >>>>>> “as LENR use increases oil will become cheaper”

        I suspect that oil and gas will become more expensive before it gets cheaper. Think about it. The value of the reserves will be slashed, balance sheets will roil, capital spending on new, expensive, non-conventional oil extraction (EROEI below 10) will dry up in a hurry, there will be less investment and therefore less oil flowing. Meanwhile, the demand can’t change nearly as fast. ergo the price could rise or at least stay around $100. Sure the low cost, conventional (easy) oil producers might be able to increase their output a little but these wells are probably already producing at maximum capacity. Generally I don’t think the price of oil can be predicted accurately in a LENR world. It could easily go up for a while, not down.

        • Job001

          Agree, market dynamics and old infrastructure demand will have an impact until perhaps LENR+ synthetic oil is cheaper than pumping refining and shipping FF oil. That is certainly too far off to forecast prices. Significantly also, FF big money will drag out replacement technology as long as possible to “Milk it” until the old cow kicks the bucket.

  • Buck

    THANK YOU, TOM WIPPLE.

    • GreenWin

      Ditto. Tom is one of the very few writers who has followed this story with an even hand. Integrity of this caliber is sorely needed in government these days.

      • Alan DeAngelis

        It’s time for the powers that shouldn’t be to do their 180 degree turn-about.
        Oh no, cold fusion, if the extremists get their hands on it, it could trigger global cooling. We’ll have to have cold fusion police and taxes to regulate it.

        http://www.amazon.com/The-Cooling-Next-Already-Begun/dp/013172312X

        • Omega Z

          Exactly, They wont be cheated out of their Taxes.

  • Buck

    THANK YOU, TOM WIPPLE.

    And to you Frank for establishing & maintaining the reputation that puts you on Tom Wipple’s ‘good’ list

    • GreenWin

      Ditto. Tom is one of the very few writers who has followed this story with an even hand. Integrity of this caliber is sorely needed in government these days.

  • mcloki

    All I can say is that nothing has a 10 year development period. Can you remember what life was like without an iPad or an iPhone. Hell your iPod seems like ancient technology. The ipod was launched September 11th 2001. 13 years ago. It’s now a dead technology. LENR if it works like described in that article will take over in less than 2 years. China alone will have a 1000 factories employing hundreds of thousands making and improving LENR designs. Uptake will be swift. Especially if they can drop it into a car.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Yes, China would approach this like a war. Indeed it could become financial warfare at some level, if any country were foolish enough to ignore the reality of it.

      Poor North Korea, Maybe Poor Russia.

      You could power automobiles with Sterling engines powered by heat.
      the cost would plunge for the engines.

      Perhaps someone clever could retrofit existing gasoline engines for hydrogen fuel, where the LENR is somehow used to generate on demand hydrogen.
      You could always just go with the hydrogen retrofit and a pressure tank.

    • Robert Ellefson

      I built the world’s first wireless and color touchscreen tablet computer (‘Rover’) when I was working at Sun Microsystems Laboratories in 1992. I worked on it and related mobile technologies for a few years, as Java was being developed, but the overall display, battery and semiconductor technologies had not progressed enough for real tablet computing yet. It took many years and more than a few iterations of tablet computing platforms before the iPad and then Android and now Windows 8 really got a good foothold. Personally, I suspect tablet computers are here to stay for a good long while. What does this have to do with a ten-year development projection for LENR? Well, not much actually, other than to point out that different technologies are apples and oranges, and cannot be directly compared. Is the iPad about the suffer the same fate as the iPod? I doubt it.

      Is the e-cat doomed to a ten-year development period before we see the real fruits? Only if the people controlling the technology decide that’s what they want to do with it. The ultimate advancement pace of the technology will be determined by the amount of effort put into understanding and optimizing it for many years to come. I strongly doubt that we’ve so much as scratched the surface of what LENR has in store for us, when considering end-use applications. For initial deployment and displacement of fossil-fuel-powered electrical plants, I can’t see any reason why the e-cat isn’t already deployed other than the time it is taking for various stakeholders to unload their soon-to-be-worthless assets.

    • Matt Smart

      Once LENR is here and proven to the masses, investment will be HUGE, everyone in business will want in on the action, what we can guess will happen with the tech today will be dwarfed by what actually happens with the tech in the future. We are not even at launch phase but the implications are mind boggling to say the least. Development will be very swift indeed once the billions of currency is finally poured in to the research and development.

      On another note; the Apple iPod launch was 23rd October 2001. Not the other more infamous date in history you mentioned. It may have been scheduled for ‘that’ date for all I know, but it didn’t happen for obvious reasons.

    • Omega Z

      China already farms out jobs to other countries. Like everyone else, they have limited manpower for labor. They are looking at manpower shortages as most countries are. Reality differs from appearances.

      It will take decades to get the raw resources out of the ground to build all these devices & accessories to put them to use.

      There are over 1000 power plants already on the waiting list. There is a reason for that. A Shortage of skilled labor of which to build them. A shortage of the hardware, A shortage of the financial resources.
      ——————————————-
      Each Generating System requires different Boiler designs & exchangers. These have yet to be designed for LENR systems And then be optimized, This takes time.

      Not everyone is going to scramble to build these as fast as possible. It’s as yet, an unproven technology. They will build a few then observe for a period of time. No one will venture 100’s of billions only to discover a couple years down the road that it has major issues.

      Money is a commodity. The more demand, the more it costs. I have demands for $50 Billion in loans. I have $10 Billion to loan. The biding starts here how much are you willing to pay in interest. He who’s willing to pay the most wins.

      Rossi says the market will decide. Well, the market will also determine how fast. When the materials can be produced, when the skilled labor is available, And when funding is available. Likely at just a slightly faster pace of power plant building then we have at the present.

      An E-cat power plant will likely be comparable to an NG power plant. Cheaper then Coal or Nuclear. But they will still be expensive. Has all the same requirements. The only difference is the heating apparatus.

      Will be lucky to see a couple retrofitted power plants in 2 years.

      • mcloki

        Large profits will drive adoption. Government financing of retrofits is a no brainer. Green, Jobs, Cost savings. Check, Check, Check. In Canada. Nickel mining. Check.

    • Billy Jackson

      the ipod/ipad/iphone is a drop in the bucket compared with the potential of LENR. yes Apple sells what the consumers demand.. but even then apple just 5 years ago didnt have the demand it had today… LENR or the E-Cat wont be in just a few devices.. every sector that uses energy will want an E-cat (or what ever the competition brings) .. 18 times more energy out than in.. let that sink in.. it has a far bigger impact than what brand of phone you choose to use.

      1000 factories dont build themselves over night.. for the world wide demand that will be generated.. 10 years we will still just be getting started.. to fill just exsisting needs right now.. not 10 years or whats made or needed till then. but just right now.. we need close to 2 billion e-cats for house hold and business needs.. this doesnt even include cars or other uses… if a plant is putting out a million a month.. it would still take more than a lifetime to supply our needs.. your going to need plants that build plants that build ecats… just to play catch up in 10 years.. and thats just not going to happen fast…

  • Hope4Dbest

    GreenWin says:

    “Mary Yugo is a Senior Skep like Big (Racial Slurrist) Willy. She says we shouldn’t worry ’bout utilities death spiral ’cause Warren Buffet’s a fan and investor.

    “British banking giant Barclays downgraded the entire electricity-generating sector of the US high-grade corporate bond marketbecause of the challenges posed by renewables and the fact that the market isn’t pricing in those challenges.The thesis from the Barclays credit team is that it’s not so much regulations that will choke off coal burning, but technological advances. And it’s serious money Barclays is talking about.

    According to the Barclays data, electricity utilities represent about 7.5 per cent of the investment-grade corporate bond market in the US, or about $280 billion in outstanding debt.

    What makes the report particularly interesting is that it’s driven by hard-nosed financial considerations rather than the ideology surrounding renewable energy.

    Barclays’ credit team is advising its investors to stop viewing the utilities as a “sturdy and defensive subset of the investment grade universe”.http://www.abc.net.au/news/2014-06-04/technology-not-regulation-will-kill-coal-fired-power/5500356

    If our guys hadn’t been so blind-boozled by Rosie’s hot pipe, we coulda seen this coming.”

    • Owen Geiger

      Mary Yugo’s advice will drive the blind into the ditch.

    • GreenWin

      The Barclays Bank downgrade is significant. In addition the recent advice from Investment University suggests the US Federal Reserve Bank (aka Big Dog) has withdrawn support of these utilities coupons. IF the Fed (USA) and Barclays (UK) are walking away from a major capital return instrument like utility bonds – there’s something afoot.

      “It’s Time to Abandon Utility Stocks”
      Investment University 5/29/2014

      “The key takeaway here is to reduce your exposure to utility stocks quickly in order to avoid further losses. There are plenty of opportunistic areas in the market to invest in, but the utility sector should be avoided at all costs.”

      http://www.investmentu.com/article/detail/33793/abandon-utility-stocks#.U44EbmTCXX4

    • Ophelia Rump

      And if LENR puts them so deep in the black that they spit gold Dubloons after retrofits, the market will adjust. They have the potential to go from negative income to One Thousand percent profit per year with a LENR retrofit at COP 18. Think about it.

      And that would be powering the plant off the grid which they are selling to. And from 2 to 4 hundred percent of the cost of input power to pay for expenses other than the input electricity. Because I left that that much off the 1000%, being conservative.

      Coal Oil and Gas producers will be sad, but no one with a generator will be.

      Now think about this, your great grand children could be paying 1000% profits to the grid if they lock this technology up so that only utilities can have it. This technology must be democratized, or humanity will become more enslaved by the rich than it ever has been before. 1000% enslaved. Think about paying 1000% more than it is worth for the energy input into everything you touch.

      Small commercial generation plants would give millions of people around the world a steady income, if they could own one. Who gets to own LENR devices determines who will be free and independent, and who will live in servitude until the Nickel runs out.
      We must have access to LENR without meters, or we will all be tapped like a keg of beer for our entire lives.

      • HS61AF91

        The national security, national interest, derives from personal interest. The power to do and be whatever you chose (a self-owned LENR device), is basic to personal interest, and not only worth it, but essential to fight for. Definitely not a time to passively accept any accommodation the energy industry deems appropriate for you.

      • purplepartyguy

        Utilities come under one type of government oversight or another. The price we pay for electricity is controlled by agencies and must give prior approval for rate changes. I would think that if a utility was suddenly able to cut their generation costs dramatically the consumer would expect to see a cost cutting in their monthly billing rates of a similar amount. We are already seeing problems when the percentage of net metered onsite generated electricity enters the grid. Over time as more people leave the grid using distributed power systems less customers will bear the cost of maintaining an expensive outdated electrical grid. Eventually the entire electrical network will be shut down, this transition period is when we will see many problems and shifting economies.

  • jousterusa

    Brooks is a guy who has his head screwed on straight. Good for him!

    • Gerard McEk

      The shares of cherokee made the 9th of June a jump up from $ 14 to $ 16, but slowly dropped again after that. Let us keep an eye on that. It may give us a hint in advance of the test results.
      I would expect many of us E-cat World readers to invest in Cherokee, when I look to the poll.
      See http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/chke

      • ecatworld

        Actually, this is a different company than Cherokee Investment Partners which is a privately held company, and therefore its shares are not traded in the public market.

        The Cherokee you link to above is based in California:

        “Cherokee, Inc. is a global marketer and manager of a portfolio of lifestyle brands. It owns or represents, licensing the brands and related trademarks and other brands in multiple consumer product categories and sectors. Cherokee owns several trademarks which include Cherokee, Sideout, Sideout Sport, Carole Little, Saint Tropez-West, Chorus Line and All That Jazz. The company was founded in 1988 and is headquartered in Sherman Oaks, CA.”

        • C. Kirk

          Cherokee is currently distributing the funds they raised in their last round and are not open for further investment at this time… I checked and according to my advisor are only interested if you are a certified investor (with $1m to invest)

          • Gerard McEk

            Hmm… If I had that kind of money to spend I would start my own LENR company and do the research myself.

          • C. Kirk

            the term was actually a qualified investor (meaning $1m of funds available to invest) but I don’t know the minimum amount you need to invest in this fund probably more like $25k or maybe $100K

        • Gerard McEk

          Thanks for the warning Frank.

  • jousterusa

    Brooks is a guy who has his head screwed on straight. Good for him!

    • bachcole

      Yes, he doesn’t believe in vast conspiracies of corruption and/or incompetence, and he is comfortable with not knowing for sure.

  • Gerard McEk

    May this be the first sign of the disruptive waves that run ahead of the giant splash the E-cat test will cause in the ocean of Cold Fusion deniers. May the resulting branding surge squash these deniers, unless they confess Cold Fusion is real…. You see, I am still merciful.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Fear will motivate the actions of investors far more intensely than will disbelief.
      Ultimately it may be the fear of the possibility of LENR which forces it’s adoption.
      It is far better to hedge your bet than loose everything.

      Yes you do somehow seem warm and fuzzy tonight, although I am not sure squash was the right word for the aquatic prose.

      • Gerard McEk

        This was my morning prose Ophelia. Since English is not my mother-tongue, I fail the sublimity. I am never too old to learn and add your last two words to my vocabulary.

        Maybe investors and hedge funds are already investing in IH. I will keep an eye IH’s rate.

        You are extremely active today, are you being influenced by the waves as well?

        • Ophelia Rump

          There are strong forces at work, they tug at my spirit.
          If you find a way to capitalize let us all know. I think it would be great sport to monitor some funds as a group and see the winds of change, blowing across the stock exchange floors.

          Your prose was excellent, I would not have offered otherwise.

          • Omega Z

            I think the Grid will be around for a long time tho different.
            Power plants will be smaller & more local.
            If my Electricity came from LENR, it would drop to about $30 or so a month. I then have to decide if I want to spend many $1000’s on hardware & installation of which I’m responsible for & have to maintain or worry about, Cause if it breaks down it’s on me. Or do I want to pay $30 a month & forget about it.
            That Time will come…

        • Ophelia Rump

          Your prose was fine, I would not offer my words to the unworthy.

          I hope you share any investment info, It would be fun to have a thread where people who understand the market could show the rest of us what is happening at that level. It seems like it would be one big set of tools for monitoring the winds of change. It could be enjoyable, maybe even have a fantasy investing competition between a couple of competent people.
          I am not an investor, but I would like to see how it is approached for a major sea change like this.

          And yes the winds of change pull at my spirit making me restless.

  • Gerard McEk

    May this be the first sign of the disruptive waves that run ahead of the giant splash the E-cat test will cause in the ocean of Cold Fusion deniers. May the resulting branding surge squash these deniers, unless they confess Cold Fusion is real…. You see, I am still merciful.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Fear will motivate the actions of investors far more intensely than will disbelief.
      Ultimately it may be the fear of the possibility of LENR which forces it’s adoption.
      It is far better to hedge your bet than loose everything.

      Yes you do somehow seem warm and fuzzy tonight, although I am not sure squash was the right word for the beautiful and gentle aquatic prose.

      May I suggest: drown, drag under, suffocate, asphyxiate, deluge.

      • Gerard McEk

        This was my morning prose Ophelia. Since English is not my mother-tongue, I fail the sublimity. I am never too old to learn and add your last two words to my vocabulary.

        Maybe investors and hedge funds are already investing in IH. I will keep an eye IH’s rate.

        You are extremely active today, are you being influenced by the waves as well?

        • Ophelia Rump

          There are strong forces at work, they tug at my spirit.
          If you find a way to capitalize let us all know. I think it would be great sport to monitor some funds as a group and see the winds of change, blowing across the stock exchange floors.

          Your prose was excellent, I would not have offered otherwise.

          Monitor Cherokee, if possible. They had 2 billion in funds last year and I expect they are at about 4 billion now. Doubling annually. I expect to see double digits, just before all hell breaks loose some time this year.

        • Ophelia Rump

          Your prose was fine, I would not offer my words to the unworthy.

          I hope you share any investment info, It would be fun to have a thread where people who understand the market could show the rest of us what is happening at that level. It seems like it would be one big set of tools for monitoring the winds of change. It could be enjoyable, maybe even have a fantasy investing competition between a couple of competent people.
          I am not an investor, but I would like to see how it is approached for a major sea change like this.

          And yes the winds of change pull at my spirit making me restless.
          There is new lightening on the horizon.

  • Freethinker

    It certainly helps a bit to remove the foul smell of a certain radio show.

    Amazingly well written and balanced piece. Kudos.

    I did trigger a bit on “LENR is tainted with the cold fusion hoax” and claims that P&F s experiment was not replicated, but this may possibly be a matter of strategy, as cold fusion has been made equal to “not-working-hoax” by MSM, and LENR is a perky new acronym promising a better future.

    • that cold fusion is not replicated, and have been debunked is the bigges stupidy and greatest delusion, much more unfounded than the claim that 9/11 is an alien conspiracy.

      we have no evidence Bin Laden was not an alien, so it is clear that we should assume he was alien as Cimpy would say.

      Comparatively cold fusion is replicated hundred of times, and even an alien conspiracy cannot deny that.

      • Freethinker

        🙂

      • Ophelia Rump

        That radio woman is an alien.
        1, There is no proof that she is not.
        2, She is obviously unqualified to judge human behavior.
        3, She was not educated anywhere on this planet which I have ever been to.
        4, I think she probably smells bad, or at least foreign.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Reality means nothing to people who lie to get their way.
        Soon there are so many lies in the air at one time that there is no longer any connection between their words and anything real.
        Can thinking be anything except delusional at that point?

  • Freethinker

    It certainly helps a bit to remove the foul smell of a certain radio show.

    Amazingly well written and balanced piece. Kudos.

    I did trigger a bit on “LENR is tainted with the cold fusion hoax” and claims that P&F s experiment was not replicated, but this may possibly be a matter of strategy, as cold fusion has been made equal to “not-working-hoax” by MSM, and LENR is a perky new acronym promising a better future.

    • that cold fusion is not replicated, and have been debunked is the bigges stupidy and greatest delusion, much more unfounded than the claim that 9/11 is an alien conspiracy.

      we have no evidence Bin Laden was not an alien, so it is clear that we should assume he was alien as Cimpy would say.

      Comparatively cold fusion is replicated hundred of times, and even an alien conspiracy cannot deny that.

      • Freethinker

        🙂

      • Ophelia Rump

        That radio woman is an alien.
        1, There is no proof that she is not.
        2, She is obviously unqualified to judge human behavior.
        3, She was not educated anywhere on this planet which I have ever been to.
        4, I think she probably smells bad, or at least foreign.

        • bachcole

          The whole problem with these skeptopaths is #2: She is obviously unqualified to judge human behavior.

          Also, the whole idea that physical laws are not laws, they are patterns.

        • John De Herrera

          “…she probably smells bad, or at least foreign.”
          There you have it – a typical ‘debunking’ of a debunker of cold fusion. “Fight fire with fire” is a good analogy for this. “REAL” scientists have an open mind and don’t need to be debunking things that they don’t like.
          jdh

      • Ophelia Rump

        Reality means nothing to people who lie to get their way.
        Soon there are so many lies in the air at one time that there is no longer any connection between their words and anything real.
        Can thinking be anything except delusional at that point?
        People who lie poison their own minds.

  • I gues there are some ecat report insider information circulating behind the scenes 😉
    When a poor radio show moderator can get information of where the test was conducted, what can scientists and investors find out…

  • I guess there are some ecat report insider information circulating behind the scenes 😉
    When a poor radio show moderator can get information of where the test was executed, what can scientists and investors find out with a single phone call?

  • hereandthere

    In all the speculation, IF Rossi, and now IH have the goods, there may be a measured restraint in too quickly bringing the product to market for geopolitical reasons. Economies with varied profit sources can adapt; primarily oil-based economies(middle east and others) may choose some pretext for war in order to avoid losing power and entering rapid financial decline. There may be a significant risk factor that is being weighed by TPTB… bringing in this new technology could radically improve the standard of living for all earth’s population(especially the poor), but could also destabilize and stir extremist nation-states to violence.

    • Varmlandstok

      The arab countries will become too poor to be able to make much trouble.

      • MikeP

        The Arab countries are already poor, except for the elite. The elite have their money invested outside their countries, so they should be ok financially. The problem will be in the ways that the elite try to maintain power …

        • hereandthere

          And Arab countries(and their leaders) are fundamentally united with other populous nations/regions(Indonesia, etc.) and we must be careful to not underplay the power of ideology/religion in motivating a billion people.. or the ability of those in authority in those nations to use/manipulate/direct the masses in order to increase/protect their own power and long term purposes. History warns us, if we are willing to look back in order anticipate the future. Of course, things are different, now…!

          • about indonesia, and similar asian muslim it is more complex.
            saudi try to play the boss of the religion, and people prefer to have their local version… they don’t want a pope.
            However economic problems makes some extremism quite popular among the poorest, or the educated under-classed…

            good growth, and end of economic dependence to oil and petrodollar will make things more calm.

            note also that to balance the power of saudi, the Siha led by Iran is a good balance… If US were 2cent competent in muslim culture they would collaborate with Iran, not try to kill it (it is impossible, unlike many states around, they are a Nation, a very educated nation)…

            They should also try to benefit from Indonesian multi-cultural multi-religious experience, and the long past of feudal system. Indonesian are appreciated in UNO force for their diplomacy in muslim and mixed muslim zone… a bit like French… living in France is diplomacy,.

          • friendlyprogrammer

            @ Alainco,
            I am the other poster advocating LENR on that Science Forum you just joined.

          • so now you know I’m not a fan of widom larsen 😉
            and that I now push cautiously Edmund Storms

            I have supported WL for a long time, as it is proposing quite mainstream ideas, but it seems less and less matching facts.
            NASA/Zawodny, seems to have fallen in love with WL like Krivit…

            I don’t know if there is hope of productive discussion on LENR.
            the first instinct of everybody (even me) it to go to theory.
            then some deny or defend scientific experimental papers without being expert, parroting critics or defense tha we seldom understand, at least not enough to debunk errors.

            however thanks you for raising awareness.
            I have need interesting moves in the social network because of your debate…
            the biggest moves are not talking people, it is shy lurkers.

            for one wikipedia conspiracy fan, there is 10 curious and shy guys who activate probes on the subject. I even suspect some are corps.

            anyway I hope the report will come soon.

            as you see in the debate, we should package a conviction kit…
            I propose first e-cat test, Beaudette,
            then ed storms theory (sorry I’m a fan), some epistemology (Kuhn, Benabou), Elforsk statement/article, Industrial heat statement and Chinese connections, NASA GRC and NASA/Wells/Sugar, ENEA/SRI/NavyNRL joint works and F&P latest results.

            to ridicule critics, beside beaudette page 5, the calorimetry comparison of Miles, the frauds report agains MIT by Mallove (Larouche report is nice too). the Titanic paper of Jed, the Fleishmann/Morrison debate, jed article on nature refusing to correct the flawed papers, ENEA/DeNinno report 41 rejection letter…

            the problem is how to assemble all of that in a storytelling, and convince lurkers to read the content

          • friendlyprogrammer

            I would not even write off the Mills concept of Hydrogen as an explanation at this point. I agree we mostly know the reaction is occurring, but not enough idea why.

            Do you have a link that can persuade me towards Storms the best. You have noted him quite a lot and I am familiar with his name and qualifications.

            I was also a fan of the Guglinsky Quantum Ring Theory (QRT).

            I have repeated the W/L Theory because unlike QRT it requires no new physics, and offers a way past the Coulomb Barrier unchallenged.

            I am content to hear an analysis someday, and unlikely will become a Garage Theoretical Physicist .despite the temptations. I only have curiosity over the matter and do not care what explanation is valid.

            LENR is a hard enough sell sometimes without adding new physics, and I think some of it must be true..

          • hereandthere

            Indonesia’s multi-religious experience? Have you been to/spent time in Indonesia? In reality, tolerance there means not immediately throwing Christians in jail(or worse) for speaking the name of Jesus in public. Yes, there are churches, but in the society they, and Christians, are very restricted.

          • I know from inside, and it is a complex society that struggle for tolerance.
            there is a very bad influence of Saudi.
            many conflicts (even the bombing of bali) are linked to local economic and political power battles.

            It is not much mor complex in indonesia than in france and US.
            Note also that conflict are more violent even just for workers conflicts (burning and killing happen if negotiation fails).
            The pressure of the integrist, funded by saudi, is increasing in a way that looks like tea party/occupy wallstreet, or Front national…
            The government work on it.
            Because of the increased violences, which are also consequence of the demand for more visibility by minorities, there are new christian parties.

            in Indonesia the worst discrimination is against Chinese, developped strongly under Suharto as scapegoat, but it is more jealousy for business power and school dominance.
            Government work on it to force school mixing.

            They also work on controlling muslim school (Madrassa, not the state school) which were for long a nest for extremists.

            I also know what mean tolerance in West Virginia from the point of view of a French professor… And also in france from Indonesian point of view.

            Tolerance is complex, everywhere.

        • Christina

          As a last-ditch effort at power, will the loose nukes on the U.S. in order to subjugate us and the rest of the world into their caliphate(s)?

    • SiriusMan

      I think this is an important point and may explain some of things we have seen with regard to governments extreme reluctance to admitting even the possibility that LENR exists.
      The proposed idea that introducing LENR could lead to geopolitical instability is spelled out explicitly in the UK Ministry of Defence Global Strategic Trends Report, that was mentioned on ECW recently.

      There is a big question that remains, however. Will *all* countries show similar levels of restraint? In other words, will China, Japan and Korea be happy to stand back and wait for years/decades – even though those countries are in desperate need of a clean & affordable energy solution? I kind of doubt it….

      • hereandthere

        I agree; perhaps the involving of China (and, hopefully, secretly, Japan!) in the industrialization of LENR is as much political as financial…bringing the major players into the game in order to avoid possible future conflict/war. I still think the bigger threat is from the Arab world with its violent ideologies and rogue leadership…and dependence upon oil revenues.

      • John De Herrera

        “governments extreme reluctance”
        It may be better if that “reluctance” continues and CF/LENR gradually begin to replace the nuclear, coal, and gas power plants. However, if US and Europe are hostile to introduction of CF/LENR, then IH/Rossi have to move to China or some other non European country.

        jdh

    • John De Herrera

      “there may be a measured restraint”
      No way – a huge wave of panic could sweep across the world when positive news about the REAL potential of CF/LENR is released in a Validation Report. Could it be that IH and Rossi are hedging their bets (if US & Europe block release of new energy reactors), by partnering with China to get around that?
      jdh

  • georgehants

    The Guardian
    Big picture science: who decides?
    The government wants input on how to spend the capital budget. But how easy is it to back a winner?
    Scientific research is performed for the good of all mankind, but one of
    the inherent paradoxes is that it is too complex and specialized for
    most of its beneficiaries to grasp. So arcane is the knowledge and
    training required to pursue a scientific trade that even a scientist
    doesn’t necessarily understand the workings of other scientists in
    different fields. As a cell biologist, I’m quite comfortable
    manipulating genes and observing living cells in action using complex
    machinery and chemistry, but I’m clueless when it comes to the secrets
    of the cosmos or in parsing mathematics more intricate than the workaday
    equations I use in the lab.
    http://www.theguardian.com/science/occams-corner/2014/jun/11/big-picture-science-who-decides

    • Omega Z

      That is why Science needs to combine multiple disciplines into research.
      The Problem tho, Is that Science is fragmented by it’s own version of class warfare.

    • kdk

      It’s too late for cf to fail due to talking about other unsavories, but this is the perfect opportunity to mention them if people’s minds are opened here… frankly, you’d have to be silly to think that all of the pilots, military, faa witnesses etc are having collective hallucinations of objects doing incredible things in the air.

      • Omega Z

        And on that subject, there is on going government investigation.
        We’re just not privy to it. All Pilots are required to report such phenomena thru specific channels. Going outside the channels tho could cost them their job.

  • georgehants

    The Guardian
    Big picture science: who decides?
    The government wants input on how to spend the capital budget. But how easy is it to back a winner?
    Scientific research is performed for the good of all mankind, but one of
    the inherent paradoxes is that it is too complex and specialized for
    most of its beneficiaries to grasp. So arcane is the knowledge and
    training required to pursue a scientific trade that even a scientist
    doesn’t necessarily understand the workings of other scientists in
    different fields. As a cell biologist, I’m quite comfortable
    manipulating genes and observing living cells in action using complex
    machinery and chemistry, but I’m clueless when it comes to the secrets
    of the cosmos or in parsing mathematics more intricate than the workaday
    equations I use in the lab.
    http://www.theguardian.com/science/occams-corner/2014/jun/11/big-picture-science-who-decides

    • Omega Z

      That is why Science needs to combine multiple disciplines into research.
      The Problem tho, Is that Science is fragmented by it’s own version of class warfare.

  • malkom700

    In view of the need for active or at least passive restoration of environmental parameters can be evaluated LENR as disruptive energy source? From this perspective, these issues are irrelevant, must therefore also affect policy.

  • malkom700

    In view of the need for active or at least passive restoration of environmental parameters can be evaluated LENR as disruptive energy source? From this perspective, these issues are irrelevant, must therefore also affect policy.

  • Bernie777

    Oil company assets (oil reserves) will simply be worth less, raising havoc with their balance sheets.

    • mcloki

      Major Havok. And the reserves they do hold will be downgraded. Hard to extract from fields will be too expensive to extract oil from.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Oil company assets (oil reserves) will simply be worth less, raising havoc with their balance sheets.

    • mcloki

      Major Havok. And the reserves they do hold will be downgraded. Hard to extract from fields will be too expensive to extract oil from.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    It’s time for the powers that shouldn’t be to do their 180 degree turn-about.
    Oh no, cold fusion, if the extremists get their hands on it, it could trigger global cooling. We’ll have to have cold fusion police and taxes to regulate it.

    http://www.amazon.com/The-Cooling-Next-Already-Begun/dp/013172312X

    • Omega Z

      Exactly, They wont be cheated out of their Taxes.

  • SiriusMan

    I think this is an important point and may explain some of things we have seen with regard to governments extreme reluctance to admitting even the possibility that LENR exists.
    The proposed idea that introducing LENR could lead to geopolitical instability is spelled out explicitly in the UK Ministry of Defence Global Strategic Trends Report, that was mentioned on ECW recently.

    There is a big question that remains, however. Will *all* countries show similar levels of restraint? In other words, will China, Japan and Korea be happy to stand back and wait for years/decades – even though those countries are in desperate need of a clean & affordable energy solution? I kind of doubt it….

  • georgehants

    I must now ask the question again! do the people on page see that the situation regarding Cold Fusion is no different to the science of UFO’s The Placebo Effect, Telepathy, NDE etc. etc.
    The Questions you are asking today about the debunking and not following clear Evidence is as clear in these subjects as Cold Fusion.
    Can we at last wake-up to the psychological manipulation of the authorities to make all these subjects into things to be laughed at.
    Cold Fusion is no different to these subjects that when looked at sensibly, the Evidence is clear that a phenomenon is at work that cannot be explained by the religious scientific elite.

    • Stephen Haigh

      I have long been interested in and read about UFOs, Telepathy and NDE , but can you point me at some real evidence please?

      • Guest

        “The Conscious Universe” by Dean Radin, Phd.

        This does an excellent job of laying out the well constructed experiments and their ‘unusual’ results. Like CF, the effects are real, we just don’t understand the underlying mechanism.

        • georgehants

          Buck, we are moving to Cornwall and I have just given away to charity shops etc. over 1000 books including your suggestion.
          I certainly hope that some of them go to people who can learn and enjoy reading the Truth about many scientific subjects that are debunked by the same people who debunk Cold Fusion and everything beyond their meager abilities to comprehend.

          • Obvious

            Good luck with the move, George.
            I am moving also, and am letting go of many things I would prefer not to, but have a hard time justifying hauling to a new home to live in boxes there. A really helpful local charity will probably benefit. (Some stuff is still in boxes from the last move 8 years ago).

          • georgehants

            Obvious, many thanks and good luck with your move.

      • Mark

        Dean Radin’s blog.

        http://deanradin.blogspot.com/

        Take a look at this for an example of how scientific evidence from better quality experiments than all other fields of science is treated when it is parapsychological.

        http://deanradin.blogspot.com/2014/04/feeling-future-meta-analysis.html

      • georgehants

        Stephen. please see my reply above.

      • kdk

        The Sirius project has some good testimony. Robert Salas and Stephen Lovekin are the ones that stood out for me (both military, one a general). Richard Dolan has good videos on it also.

    • robyn wyrick

      Hey George, thought I’d pipe in here. Hope it’s welcome.

      I think there are important parallels between the history of CF, and that of other pursuits (UFOs, Telepathy, Astrology, etc.) but there are any number of false starts in the history of science (or religion or the occult, etc.), and redeeming one does not redeem all.

      For instance, my father-in-law was a farmer in Pennsylvania, and he swore by Dowsing. In his experience (and the traditions he inherited) Dowsing was a real thing. I don’t think so, and neither does almost any respected member of the scientific community.

      And there it certainly shares a theme with Cold Fusion.

      The great majority of scientists will claim that we have a working theory (the Standard Model) that has been reinforced by countless experiments and observations – and that Cold Fusion doesn’t fit in the Standard Model. Peter Hagelstein has also said as much.

      And you and I think that the specific clues we have followed suggest that – Standard Model or not, scientific opinion or not – Cold Fusion is real.

      So, I think there it is fair for honest people to explore unpopular notions or possibilities – sometimes there is something to find. But I think it is also fair to say that even the most open minded of us have our limits (the Mayan Calendar end of the world, for instance).

      And I think it is not particularly fair to lump together those who don’t find credence with the evidence of Cold Fusion as pathoskeptics. Nor do I think it’s fair to suggest that if one believes the evidence around Cold Fusion, that is it unreasonable to disbelieve evidence around any other pursuit.

      That’s why I prefer – on this website – to shy away from debates on Climate Change, UFOs, etc.

      (PS: that said, I tend to think there could be something to the UFO thing.)

      • georgehants

        First I must apologise to Admin for my straying into these subjects that I find so connected to the Cold Fusion fiasco.
        Second can I thank robyn above and Stephen below for being good scientists and replying in a way that would have meant Cold Fusion would have been fairly and competently investigated by the fools of science 25 years ago.
        —–
        I only say robyn that until these subjects are competently and scientifically investigated then all ridiculous “opinion” is unscientific.
        I have investigated the Evidence in many cases and it is clear that a genuine phenomenon is at work.
        Not wishing to go further on these pages I will put up just one link, if any scientist does not think that link demands further investigation, then like the debunkers of Cold Fusion, I laugh at them.
        I could put up just as professional reports and Evidence on all the subjects I discuss but this will do.
        The French COMETA report. 1999
        http://www.ufocasebook.com/cometamain.html

      • bachcole

        I agree almost entirely. We have enough stigma to deal with now just with believing that cold fusion is real. When LENR is proven, then we can go after them for being too cowardly to investigate other fringe phenomena (including dowsing, which I believe may be true.).

        • Ophelia Rump

          How much more will every person on earth be free to pursue those interests, when there is almost no cost to electricity, or heat or fuel?

          It depends upon if the power is sold to every one and metered, or if it is of your own local or individual production.

          • bachcole

            Initially, it will be sold via the grid. This is inevitable. Eventually, people and manufacturers will discover that the units are affordable for the rich, and then the middle class, and then everyone. This is inevitable.

          • Omega Z

            I think the Grid will be around for a long time tho different.
            Power plants will be smaller & more local.
            If my Electricity came from LENR, it would drop to about $30 or so a month. I then have to decide if I want to spend many $1000’s on hardware & installation of which I’m responsible for & have to maintain or worry about, Cause if it breaks down it’s on me. Or do I want to pay $30 a month & forget about it.
            That Time will come…

      • AB

        Also important is the tone these topics are discussed. I’m not really interested in daily rants and accusations about ANY topic.

        • bachcole

          I couldn’t agree more. Not only do I not want to hear it because it grates on my nerves, I think that it is very bad strategy for newbies to hear us talk like that. We need for people to get to http://arxiv.org/pdf/1305.3913.pdf or whatever comes next before we scare them away.

          • kdk

            It’s too late for cf to fail due to talking about other unsavories, but this is the perfect opportunity to mention them if people’s minds are opened here… frankly, you’d have to be silly to think that all of the pilots, military, faa witnesses etc are having collective hallucinations of objects doing incredible things in the air.

          • Omega Z

            And on that subject, there is on going government investigation.
            We’re just not privy to it. All Pilots are required to report such phenomena thru specific channels. Going outside the channels tho could cost them their job.

    • Fibber McGourlick

      The difference is that cold fusion is a physical phenomena that can be demonstrated (even if irregularly) by experiment, whereas UFOs etc are unproven claims akin to the purported existance of fairies. (Although I personally think fairies exist. In fact I saw a brown one swiming around at the bottom of my toilet bowl this morning.)

      • John De Herrera

        ‘Fibber McGourlick’, you are ‘fibbing’ OR you know nothing about UFOs. There is abundant documented evidence to show UFOs are real and a PHYSICAL phenomenon. Do I have to grab you by the ear and drag you out to the wilderness to see some? Search the Internet for documented evidence.
        jdh

    • bachcole

      The similarity that I see is that they are all subjects that scientists are too AFRAID to investigate. Whether they are true or not remains to be seen.

    • John De Herrera

      “Cold Fusion is no different to these subjects… the Evidence is clear…”
      You are so right George. After I see Rossi and his E-Cats hard at work in the factories, homes, and transportation, I will submit a ‘Validation Protocol” that can prove ‘UFO, Ghosts, and Apparitions’ are REAL and a PHYSICAL phenomena controlled by an INTELLIGENCE that is not biological like us.
      jdh

    • Andy Kumar

      George,

      I don’t know about UFOs but the placebo effect is for real. Long time ago, I was standing in the 120 F noon sun waiting for the bus in New Delhi. I had just made some major achievement and was feeling as if a cool breeze is blowing. Most other people were standing in the shade of trees. So it was definitely mind over body.

      Much later a friend of mine recounted that on Christmas Eve late in the evening in Berkeley, Northern California, he was feeling warm walking home after finishing his PhD and finally deciding to divorce his wife when an elderly couple were shivering. So he loaned them his jacket which they returned to his office later on. So definitely, we need to investigate this mind over body stuff.

      Andy

      • AB

        The problem is when minor effects such as these are viewed as proof that illness can be cured through the mind. Mind over body also implies that the mind rules over all aspects of the body. This isn’t supported by science. Rather, the body is a complex organism in which different systems interact, the brain being just one of them (I say brain because the mind is a theoretical concept). It is understandable why the idea of having (in theory) total control over one’s health is appealing in some situations, but it’s just not reality, and it is very egocentric.

        • kdk

          So, what causes people who are given placebo to do better than people who take nothing?

          • bachcole

            I don’t understand why this is even a question. It is obvious that the mind and body work together. A sound body helps to have a sound mind. And a sound mind helps to have a sound body. It is just like a horse and rider. If the rider is inexperienced, the horse won’t like it and won’t perform optimally. And if the horse is a nag and unhealthy, the rider can be an expert and the two of them won’t be winning any races.

            The mind influences hormones and the nervous system as a whole. That is why placebos and all other mind disciplines work. There is nothing mysterious about this.

          • AB

            > So, what causes people who are given placebo to do better than people who take nothing?

            They don’t. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20091554

          • bachcole

            You focus on one study that says that placebos don’t work, but ignore 1000 studies that say that they do. It reminds me of all the MDs and pharmaceutical companies that jumped on the Mayo clinic study that showed that Vitamin C didn’t do any good when there were literally thousands of studies that showed that extra Vitamin C was very valuable and important. The MDs and the pharmaceutical companies did not WANT Vitamin C to work, because it cut into their profits and their perspective. In your case, you don’t want placebos to work because it threatens your paradigm, just like the LENR skeptopaths who aren’t being paid to oppose cold fusion.

          • AB

            You either haven’t read the linked material, or failed to understand what it says.

          • bachcole

            It doesn’t matter. I have seen in myself and a thousand other people that it works. Why do you suppose they always include a placebo group in the studies? Because the experimental groups also gets the placebo effect simply because they take the medicine, and they want to be sure that the effect is not just the result of the placebo effect. So they have to do both an experimental group and a control or placebo group to show that their medicine is not just the placebo effect.

          • kdk

            “They don’t.”

            Oh, that’s rich. And when placebo trumps the nothing in all of the studies but the one you posted, it’s just people blowing smoke?

    • Ophelia Rump

      I believe that science understands and respects the power of the Placebo Effect. It is remarkable.
      The other things you mentioned are not well enough understood for science to even approach at this point in our understanding, perhaps you give authorities too much credit.
      If you do not know how to meter and measure something quantify and objectify it, science looses traction.

      I think old physics professors are difficult to describe as elites, so the use of the word elite was perhaps not the word you are looking for, maybe: senior.

      • georgehants

        Ophelia, I read your comments, as I read all comments, somethings you say I agree with, some I do not, but I find it pointless to waste time on an incorrect interpretation of a point somebody is making to debate the Symantec’s etc.
        I will cover just one point, I said ——-
        “cannot be explained by the religious scientific elite.” ——-
        you then try to correct me —- your correction is in error.
        I mean the scientific people with the power to influence the thinking of those unable to think for themselves, they give religious like edicts that, for instance Cold Fusion is impossible, the unthinking sheep then follow dutifully.

        That makes them an “elite”, if they are administrators, teachers, journal editors, scientists with qualifications etc. etc.
        The only antidote to this incompetent inability to follow Evidence regarding Cold Fusion or any of the subjects I mention above is for scientists to disregard the religious “expert opinions” of this elite and scientifically Research the Evidence themselves.

        • Ophelia Rump

          First thing, it was not intended as a correction, just the offering of an alternative word choice, maybe the opening to a discussion about what the meaning was in more detail. I would not presume to tell someone else what they mean when they say something.

          I just do not see how it is in any way shape or form elitest.

          Scientists are telling the next generation of their field not to chase unicorns, or delusions. It seems very easy to derail a career on a subject of little importance and no prior substantiation. A path like that once set upon makes you either a popular celebrity or grantless.

          They are not trying to dominate society with their superior knowledge. They are trying to get grants to do cool research. And like it or not they are the subject matter experts in their fields. They are the authorities when it comes to their subject, if by your definition they are elite, then they were chosen and put in office by the design and fabric of society, hard chosen to fill that role.

          Don’t mix your scientists with your journalists, it never ends well.
          Do you think journalists are elite?

          e·lit·ist
          əˈlētist,āˈlētist/Submit
          noun
          1.
          a person who believes that a system or society should be ruled or dominated by an elite.
          synonyms: aristocrat, blue blood

          I am uncertain who you think it is that is dictating science like religion except perhaps creationists, who might fit your definition.
          There are many who treat science like a religion, but those people almost universally appear to violate the most basic principles of science in the process, they are of voice, but no consequence. People who comprehend their lack of understanding do not even bother to correct them. That is the state of science journalism with few exceptions.

          I do agree there is a problem, I just do not see it the same way you do.
          You have a perspective which seems very far from the trees. I am not saying it is good or bad, just different from my own which I suspect more near the edge of the forest.

          Well, thank you for the discussion. I am still not sure I understand your perspective. I certainly cannot judge something I cannot understand. But I do wish I understood it better. I much prefer to talk to people who I do not understand. There is something there which I do not have.

          • bachcole

            I am currently episode blitzing the TV show “Medium”, the very fictionalized account of the real person Allison Dubois. I am not saying that psychism is true or false, so don’t challenge me about that because my point is their portrayal of what happens to her, her family, the District Attorney, the Deputy Mayor, and Officer Scanlon and ANYONE even associated with Allison. There is a word that Officer Scanlon used that sums this whole matter of the shunning of people who think outside of the box. Officer Scanlon tells Allison, “Allison, your toxic. Anything associated with you is toxic.” She becomes a pariah and even her friends, even people who KNOW that she is for real and that her dreams have predictive value, shun her, because they are terrified to be labeled toxic and shunned.

            Most people in society care and need to care what other people think of them. (I don’t, for the most part.) A toxic person, say someone promoting cold fusion or homeopathy or telepathy, is shunned because even to be distantly associated with them is deadly for someone’s career. The good news is that cold fusion is provable, and this might help people to also see that these other toxic areas of life might not be so toxic after all.

    • Richard Hill

      the comments in the base article are very encouraging. Especially the Mitsubishi segment. This is the type of endorsement needed. Mitsubishi is major player in many fields. They obviously would have more knowledge of LENR type effects than they would disclose in their patents. They would be folding LENR into their business plan. This is what I am telling people and what we should all focus on. The other topics mentioned by George Hants are detracting from this blog.

  • Gerard McEk

    The shares of cherokee made a jump up from $ 14 to $ 16 the 9th of June, but slowly dropped again after that. Let us keep an eye on that. It may give us a hint in advance of the test results.
    I would expect many of us E-cat World readers to invest in Cherokee, when I look to the poll.
    See http://www.marketwatch.com/investing/stock/chke

    • Frank Acland

      Actually, this is a different company than Cherokee Investment Partners which is a privately held company, and therefore its shares are not traded in the public market.

      The Cherokee you link to above is based in California:

      “Cherokee, Inc. is a global marketer and manager of a portfolio of lifestyle brands. It owns or represents, licensing the brands and related trademarks and other brands in multiple consumer product categories and sectors. Cherokee owns several trademarks which include Cherokee, Sideout, Sideout Sport, Carole Little, Saint Tropez-West, Chorus Line and All That Jazz. The company was founded in 1988 and is headquartered in Sherman Oaks, CA.”

      • C. Kirk

        Cherokee is currently distributing the funds they raised in their last round and are not open for further investment at this time… I checked and according to my advisor are only interested if you are a certified investor (with $1m to invest)

        • Gerard McEk

          Hmm… If I had that kind of money to spend I would start my own LENR company and do the research myself.

          • C. Kirk

            the term was actually a qualified investor (meaning $1m of funds available to invest) but I don’t know the minimum amount you need to invest in this fund probably more like $25k or maybe $100K

      • Gerard McEk

        Thanks for the warning Frank.

  • Omega Z

    China already farms out jobs to other countries. Like everyone else, they have limited manpower for labor. They are looking at manpower shortages as most countries are. Reality differs from appearances.

    It will take decades to get the raw resources out of the ground to build all these devices & accessories to put them to use.

    There are over 1000 power plants already on the waiting list. There is a reason for that. A Shortage of skilled labor of which to build them. A shortage of the hardware, A shortage of the financial resources.
    ——————————————-
    Each Generating System requires different Boiler designs & exchangers. These have yet to be designed for LENR systems And then be optimized, This takes time.

    Not everyone is going to scramble to build these as fast as possible. It’s as yet, an unproven technology. They will build a few then observe for a period of time. No one will venture 100’s of billions only to discover a couple years down the road that it has major issues.

    Money is a commodity. The more demand, the more it costs. I have demands for $50 Billion in loans. I have $10 Billion to loan. The biding starts here how much are you willing to pay in interest. He who’s willing to pay the most wins.

    Rossi says the market will decide. Well, the market will also determine how fast. When the materials can be produced, when the skilled labor is available, And when funding is available. Likely at just a slightly faster pace of power plant building then we have at the present.

    An E-cat power plant will likely be comparable to an NG power plant. Cheaper then Coal or Nuclear. But they will still be expensive. Has all the same requirements. The only difference is the heating apparatus.

    Will be lucky to see a couple retrofitted power plants in 2 years.

    • mcloki

      Large profits will drive adoption. Government financing of retrofits is a no brainer. Green, Jobs, Cost savings. Check, Check, Check. In Canada. Nickel mining. Check.

  • Pierre Ordinaire

    GreenWin says:

    “Mary Yugo, fellow skeps should not quarrel. But your the rogue here. GCHQ, JTRIG, SIGNIT, etc. has all agreed Rosie is a elaborate deception that our best an brightest fell for.

    While we has all been trying to take out Rosie & Crucians, the free energy whackos been wailin’ on our utilities. An now we got Wall Street advisers feeding the frenzy:

    “DIA (US Defense Intelligence Agency) assesses with high confidence that if LENR can produce nuclear-origin energy at room temperatures, this disruptive technology could revolutionize energy production and storage, since nuclear reactions release millions of times more energy per unit mass than do any known chemical fuel.”

    http://energy-musings.com/node/346

  • Hope4Dbest

    GreenWin says:

    “Mary Yugo, fellow skeps should not quarrel. But your the rogue here. GCHQ, JTRIG, SIGNIT, etc. has all agreed Rosie is a elaborate deception that our best an brightest fell for.

    While we has all been trying to take out Rosie & Crucians, the free energy whackos been wailin’ on our utilities. An now we got Wall Street advisers feeding the frenzy:

    “DIA (US Defense Intelligence Agency) assesses with high confidence that if LENR can produce nuclear-origin energy at room temperatures, this disruptive technology could revolutionize energy production and storage, since nuclear reactions release millions of times more energy per unit mass than do any known chemical fuel.”

    http://energy-musings.com/node/346

  • Guest

    “The Conscious Universe” by Dean Radin, Phd.

    This does an excellent job of laying out the well constructed experiments and their ‘unusual’ results. Like CF, the effects are real, we just don’t understand the underlying mechanism.

    • georgehants

      Buck, we are moving to Cornwall and I have just given away to charity shops etc. over 1000 books including your suggestion.
      I certainly hope that some of them go to people who can learn and enjoy reading the Truth about many scientific subjects that are debunked by the same people who debunk Cold Fusion and everything beyond their meager abilities to comprehend.

      • Obvious

        Good luck with the move, George.
        I am moving also, and am letting go of many things I would prefer not to, but have a hard time justifying hauling to a new home to live in boxes there. A really helpful local charity will probably benefit. (Some stuff is still in boxes from the last move 8 years ago).

        • georgehants

          Obvious, many thanks and good luck with your move.

  • Stranno

    There are so many other applications and useful purposes for oil than just to evaporate in combustion engines (what a waste!). Ofcourse the demand for oil will slowly diminish worldwide. But disruptive? I don’t know. For the coming decades oil will remain an important resource. Oil addicted countries will be able to change their economics over time.

  • Billy Jackson

    the ipod/ipad/iphone is a drop in the bucket compared with the potential of LENR. yes Apple sells what the consumers demand.. but even then apple just 5 years ago didnt have the demand it had today… LENR or the E-Cat wont be in just a few devices.. every sector that uses energy will want an E-cat (or what ever the competition brings) .. 18 times more energy out than in.. let that sink in.. it has a far bigger impact than what brand of phone you choose to use.

    1000 factories dont build themselves over night.. for the world wide demand that will be generated.. 10 years we will still just be getting started.. to fill just exsisting needs right now.. not 10 years or whats made or needed till then. but just right now.. we need close to 2 billion e-cats for house hold and business needs.. this doesnt even include cars or other uses… if a plant is putting out a million a month.. it would still take more than a lifetime to supply our needs.. your going to need plants that build plants that build ecats… just to play catch up in 10 years.. and thats just not going to happen fast…

  • georgehants

    Stephen. please see my reply above.

  • Christina

    As a last-ditch effort at power, will the loose nukes on the U.S. in order to subjugate us and the rest of the world into their caliphate(s)?

  • roseland67

    in 1859 there was no internet, futures trading, global economy, OPEC etc,
    any global research info available was probaby dispersed from people getting off boats.

    Today, there are currently 100’s of BILLIONS of $$$ being invested globally
    in nuclear power projects and all of the power being developed by these nukes
    is used to boil water to make steam, turn turbines and make electicity.

    Just today AEE reports that the world will spend 48 TRILLION $$$ in energy by 2035,
    http://www.iea.org/newsroomandevents/pressreleases/2014/june/name,72035,en.htmls
    that’s only 20+ years away).

    IF, LENR was anywhere near a scalable, reliable, repeatable, repairable & safe,
    commercial reality, don’t you think at least some of these countries somewhere on the planet would @ least hedge their bets a little.
    Maybe, just maybe, these people that are betting billions of $$$ know a little
    more about the reality of this technology that we do or than we give them credit for.

    • psi2u2

      It takes time, not to mention motivation based on facts, to slow down a ship as big as the Titanic. There has been quite a bit of reasonably convincing evidence that energy industry insiders *are* in fact becoming aware of LENR and are moving their chips around with this in mind. But the technology is still unproven, so they would be irrational not to hedge their bets. Is that really an iceberg out there? It makes sense to take the foot off the gas pedal, but how hard should they be braking? Not yet, too hard, I would say.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Trivia fact, it takes 20 miles to stop a supertanker.
        I have seen a small tanker plow up a pier with three foot round pilings at a speed of only about two miles an hour. Snapping pilings like toothpicks. It is exactly like watching a disaster movie in slow motion.

        • psi2u2

          Let’s hope that the smart money is listening carefully and is ready to move fast. I sent my TIAA-CREF people a note two years ago saying, “please keep your eye on this.” Probably time to write to them again.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Indeed they will invest, the first factory is built and all we need now is opening day!

      Cherokee is capable of bringing in the money billions at a time. Industrial Heat is just the research and development wing of the same enterprise.

    • Andy Kumar

      I heard an interesting theory which nicely explains why the e-cat has been slow to roll out. Rossi did not get any results until he collaborated with Focardi. While they shared information, only Rossi had the secret catalyst with his experience in materials and only Focardi had the industrial secret waveform with his understanding of mathematics. Remember Rossi’s calculus 101 notes that Focardi gave him.

      Focardi was pressing Rossi to go fully public so Focardi could get his Nobel as his health was failing. In the beginning, Rossi did say that he was reluctant to go public with the kW ecat but did so on the insistence of his friend Focardi. In Rossi’s words, “friendship has its price”.

      Rossi wanted to go the market rout with fully developed ecat as he disdains the ivory tower types. To make the long story short, after Focardi passed away, Rossi has been trying to find the secret waveform to make the e-cat work at high gain.

      His only other choice is to agree to make the e-cat public domain like free software. Then he can get the secret waveform from Focardi’s family.

      Andy

      • Omega Z

        Rossi had results prior to Focardi joining.
        In fact, Rossi offered Focardi money to prove he was wrong.
        I have no doubt Focardi was of much help in Rossi’s continued improvements of the process & understanding the workings.
        The waveform would be in the hardware & software control. I see no way to hide this from Rossi. However, refinements would take time.

      • John De Herrera

        There were continuous E-Cat improvements during the last three years. The improvements were coming so fast, Rossi continued the R&D instead of commercial production and sales. That is how I saw the events?
        jdh

        • kemosabe

          In 2010 Rossi claimed a COP of more than 200. In January 2011, he claimed COP of 40 with a power of 15 kW. Later demos claimed 2 to 3 kW with COP of 6. In Oct 2011, with a heavier ecat, he claimed about 2 kW with a COP of 3, and in 2013, the latest hot cat claims are less than 1 kW with a COP of 3. Sounds to me like a continual decrease in performance claims.

    • Omega Z

      There wont be a stopping & starting point.
      It will be a transition over time.
      It’ll will take time to build the factory capacity to manufacture 500K E-cats a week. That includes nothing else. No boilers or turbines.

      With future projections I read about a year ago, that will double in the near future and that is just electrical production.

      The price tag $48 Trillion. Wont change. with or without E-cats.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Boiler and turbine industries already exist and it would be foolish for IH to try and recreate them in house, no I do not think you were saying they would.

        IH need only sell the rights to build the technology, with the bonus that Cherokee can build the new turnkey factories to ease and jump-start the manufacture. It is easy to imagine Cherokee setting up a factory factory, churning out factory kits packaged in neat little shipping containers. With all of the parts obtained from third party vendors, much like car assembly plants.

        Yes it will take time. Yes it is an awful lot of money. The world needs it for more than simply as a replacement part. We need it to fix a tremendous amount ill conceived lifestyle which we have adopted.

        • Omega Z

          “recreate them in house”

          No, I was not saying that. But the Boilers will need designed from scratch. The turbines themselves may also need some serious tweaking.
          As to I.H., I suspect they are already in collaboration with a big player. Probably for quite some time.

          I also assume most if not everything will be licensed out. At most, they would build a manufacturing facility only for the reactors. I’m not even confident they would do that.

          I pretty much agree with your post with some variation which you have already included. I do see turnkey being part of the picture. By them or those they partner with..
          Note: Pretty much everything will need redesigned for E-cat use.

    • mike

      No man, they are religiously blinded as if they had no education at all. These people will have ecat type units powering their home and will still be bashing it. Like…”we don’t know what particles are being released into the air”, and build a whole movement to save the earth from ecats. Mark my words. The left doesn’t change, they just move to the next propaganda issue to sucker the ignorant. And make no mistake, it is the left keeping this out of the public arena.

  • psi2u2

    It takes time, not to mention motivation based on facts, to slow down a ship as big as the Titanic. There has been quite a bit of reasonably convincing evidence that energy industry insiders *are* in fact becoming aware of LENR and are moving their chips around with this in mind. But the technology is still unproven, so they would be irrational not to hedge their bets. Is that really an iceberg out there? It makes sense to take the foot off the gas pedal, but how hard should they be breaking? Not yet, too hard, I would say.

    • AB

      The problem is when minor effects such as these are viewed as proof that illness can be cured through the mind. Mind over body also implies that the mind rules over all aspects of the body. This isn’t supported by science. Rather, the body is a complex organism in which different systems interact, the brain being just one of them (I say brain because the mind is a theoretical concept). It is understandable why the idea of having (in theory) total control over one’s health is appealing in some situations, but it’s just not reality, and it is very egocentric.

      • kdk

        So, what causes people who are given placebo to do better than people who take nothing?

        • AB

          > So, what causes people who are given placebo to do better than people who take nothing?

          They don’t. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20091554

          • kdk

            “They don’t.”

            Oh, that’s rich. And when placebo trumps the nothing in all of the studies but the one you posted, it’s just people blowing smoke?

    • Ophelia Rump

      Trivia fact, it takes 20 miles to stop a supertanker.
      I have seen a small tanker plow up a pier with three foot round pilings at a speed of only about two miles an hour. Snapping pilings like toothpicks. It is exactly like watching a disaster movie in slow motion.

      • psi2u2

        Let’s hope that the smart money is listening carefully and is ready to move fast. I sent my TIAA-CREF people a note two years ago saying, “please keep your eye on this.” Probably time to write to them again.

  • Job001

    Agree, market dynamics and old infrastructure demand will have an impact until perhaps LENR+ synthetic oil is cheaper than pumping refining and shipping FF oil. That is certainly too far off to forecast prices. Significantly also, FF big money will drag out replacement technology as long as possible to “Milk it” until the old cow kicks the bucket.

  • about indonesia, and similar asian muslim it is more complex.
    saudi try to play the boss of the religion, and people prefer to have their local version… they don’t want a pope.
    However economic problems makes some extremism quite popular among the poorest, or the educated under-classed…

    good growth, and end of economic dependence to oil and petrodollar will make things more calm.

    note also that to balance the power of saudi, the Siha led by Iran is a good balance… If US were 2cent competent in muslim culture they would collaborate with Iran, not try to kill it (it is impossible, unlike many states around, they are a Nation, a very educated nation)…

    They should also try to benefit from Indonesian multi-cultural multi-religious experience, and the long past of feudal system. Indonesian are appreciated in UNO force for their diplomacy in muslim and mixed muslim zone… a bit like French… living in France is diplomacy,.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Indeed they will invest, the first factory is built and all we need now is opening day!

    Cherokee is capable of bringing in the money billions at a time. Industrial Heat is just the research and development wing of the same enterprise.

    • Daniel Maris

      True but even billions won’t replace the whole of the world energy market and governments and companies will have an interest in maintaining activities in certain types of energy.

      • Doktor Bob

        How many of us are still using their computer they bought 20 years ago? Also, electricity is not the only use for a cf device so there will be many industries drawing and pushing the development.

        In just 5 years – who would wanna buy a car that is not electric if the prices stays the same but one of them fuels almost for free?

        The chinese people for example are way more advanced when it comes to engineering and development than here in the west and they can literary mobilize a army of millions to develop these devices -and then of course you have safety aspects such as redundancy in your grid or not being dependent on transports of energy from other countries.

        The ROI is way to fast with these technologies – I hope and believe that things will go way faster – think singularity

        • Ophelia Rump

          Electricity can generate hydrogen, so the hydrogen car is still as practical as the electric. Gasoline is on the way out already, expensive and increasingly difficult to obtain, needing replacement.

          • AB

            You either haven’t read the linked material, or failed to understand what it says.

          • Dr B Mihajlovski

            You make a great point. There is a mr Vancini who claims that he can do cf electrolysis with sea water to provide hydrogen – there is however little info on his webpage about efficiency and few?? People sems to know anything about his work. Does anyone know more than what is posted on pesn and cfn?

        • bitplayer

          I agree. I think historical examples aren’t going to be much help.
          > The financial, environmental and geo-political motivations for change are VERY LARGE. The only historical comparison is WWII. Think about the increased industrial production of tanks, ships, airplanes (and electronics, and radar and atomics) from 1939 to 1945…which all started with 1939 technology.
          > The “technology of innovation” has advanced as much as technical innovation itself. Imagine capability for industrial innovation and production advancing in the last 20 years as much as cell phones have advanced in the last 20 years.
          > $43T has a lot of slosh for R&D.

          Net is I think we’ll see major impact on industrial investments within 5 years, which will IMMEDIATELY affect hiring patterns, oil state economics, transportation planning and many other areas .

        • Omega Z

          50 Billion H-cats & all the toys(Boilers/heat exchangers/Turbines, Etc, Etc.
          Going to take a while. The iron ore for your devices won’t be mined for 15/20 years yet. But your on the list. :-).

      • John De Herrera

        “even billions won’t replace the whole of the world energy market”
        When there are working E-Cats out in public – everyone will want one! The demand will pressure the supplier to build lots of them quickly.
        jdh

  • Daniel Maris

    LENR will not be introduced overnight – it could be a decade or more before it had a significant share of the energy market. But a war in the Middle East as we see developing in Syria/Iraq/Iran could completely transform the energy market within a matter of days. Futures markets will be much more focussed on those sorts of immediate risks in my view.

    • John De Herrera

      “LENR will not be introduced overnight”
      NOT SO – it could have been introduced two years ago, as a heating device.

      jdh

  • Andy Kumar

    I heard an interesting theory which nicely explains why the e-cat has been slow to roll out. Rossi did not get any results until he collaborated with Focardi. While they shared information, only Rossi had the secret catalyst with his experience in materials and only Focardi had the industrial secret waveform with his understanding of mathematics. Remember Rossi’s calculus 101 notes that Focardi gave him.

    Focardi was pressing Rossi to go fully public so Focardi could get his Nobel as his health was failing. In the beginning, Rossi did say that he was reluctant to go public with the kW ecat but did so on the insistence of his friend Focardi. In Rossi’s words, “friendship has its price”.

    Rossi wanted to go the market rout with fully developed ecat as he disdains the ivory tower types. To make the long story short, after Focardi passed away, Rossi has been trying to find the secret waveform to make the e-cat work at high gain.

    His only other choice is to agree to make the e-cat public domain like free software. Then he can get the secret waveform from Focardi’s family.

    Andy

    • Omega Z

      Rossi had results prior to Focardi joining.
      In fact, Rossi offered Focardi money to prove he was wrong.
      I have no doubt Focardi was of much help in Rossi’s continued improvements of the process & understanding the workings.
      The waveform would be in the hardware & software control. I see no way to hide this from Rossi. However, refinements would take time.

    • John De Herrera

      There were continuous E-Cat improvements during the last three years. The improvements were coming so fast, Rossi continued the R&D instead of commercial production and sales. That is how I saw the events?
      jdh

      • kemosabe

        In 2010 Rossi claimed a COP of more than 200. In January 2011, he claimed COP of 40 with a power of 15 kW. Later demos claimed 2 to 3 kW with COP of 6. In Oct 2011, with a heavier ecat, he claimed about 2 kW with a COP of 3, and in 2013, the latest hot cat claims are less than 1 kW with a COP of 3. Sounds to me like a continual decrease in performance claims.

  • kdk

    The Sirius project has some good testimony. Robert Salas and Stephen Lovekin are the ones that stood out for me (both military, one a general). Richard Dolan has good videos on it also.

  • Omega Z

    There wont be a stopping & starting point.
    It will be a transition over time.
    It’ll will take time to build the factory capacity to manufacture 500K E-cats a week. That includes nothing else. No boilers or turbines.

    With future projections I read about a year ago, that will double in the near future and that is just electrical production.

    The price tag $48 Trillion. Wont change. with or without E-cats.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Boiler and turbine industries already exist and it would be foolish for IH to try and recreate them in house, no I do not think you were saying they would.

      IH need only sell the rights to build the technology, with the bonus that Cherokee can build the new turnkey factories to ease and jump-start the manufacture. It is easy to imagine Cherokee setting up a factory factory, churning out factory kits packaged in neat little shipping containers. Yes it will take time. Yes it is an awful lot of money. The world needs it for more than just a replacement part. We need it to fix a tremendous amount ill conceived lifestyle which we have adopted.

      • Omega Z

        “recreate them in house”

        No, I was not saying that. But the Boilers will need designed from scratch. The turbines themselves may also need some serious tweaking.
        As to I.H., I suspect they are already in collaboration with a big player. Probably for quite some time.

        I also assume most if not everything will be licensed out. At most, they would build a manufacturing facility only for the reactors. I’m not even confident they would do that.

        I pretty much agree with your post with some variation which you have already included. I do see turnkey being part of the picture. By them or those they partner with..
        Note: Pretty much everything will need redesigned for E-cat use.

  • so now you know I’m not a fan of widom larsen 😉
    and that I now push cautiously Edmund Storms

    I have supported WL for a long time, as it is proposing quite mainstream ideas, but it seems less and less matching facts.
    NASA/Zawodny, seems to have fallen in love with WL like Krivit…

    I don’t know if there is hope of productive discussion on LENR.
    the first instinct of everybody (even me) it to go to theory.
    then some deny or defend scientific experimental papers without being expert, parroting critics or defense tha we seldom understand, at least not enough to debunk errors.

    however thanks you for raising awareness.
    I have need interesting moves in the social network because of your debate…
    the biggest moves are not talking people, it is shy lurkers.

    for one wikipedia conspiracy fan, there is 10 curious and shy guys who activate probes on the subject. I even suspect some are corps.

    anyway I hope the report will come soon.

    as you see in the debate, we should package a conviction kit…
    I propose first e-cat test, Beaudette,
    then ed storms theory (sorry I’m a fan), some epistemology (Kuhn, Benabou), Elforsk statement/article, Industrial heat statement and Chinese connections, NASA GRC and NASA/Wells/Sugar, ENEA/SRI/NavyNRL joint works and F&P latest results.

    to ridicule critics, beside beaudette page 5, the calorimetry comparison of Miles, the frauds report agains MIT by Mallove (Larouche report is nice too). the Titanic paper of Jed, the Fleishmann/Morrison debate, jed article on nature refusing to correct the flawed papers, ENEA/DeNinno report 41 rejection letter…

    the problem is how to assemble all of that in a storytelling, and convince lurkers to read the content

  • Bernie777

    Discussing how long it will take LENR to effect energy stocks, film vs digital photography might be a comparison:

    The first commercially available digital camera was the 1990 Dycam Model 1.

    Eastman Kodak reached a stock high of 100 in 1997 and fell in a straight diagonal line to -0- in 2010

    Will LENR be developed faster or slower than the digital camera? Of course the energy market is much more complex, or is it?

    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=EKDKQ&t=my&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=

    • Ophelia Rump

      Youze guyz, just ship da container over to da existing plant, you remove da coal parts, stick da Cat into da boiler where the coal used to go, plug her in and power her up.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Discussing how long it will take LENR to effect energy stocks, film vs digital photography might be a comparison:

    The first commercially available digital camera was the 1990 Dycam Model 1.

    Eastman Kodak reached a stock high of 100 in 1997 and fell in a straight diagonal line to -0- in 2010

    Will LENR be developed faster or slower than the digital camera? Of course the energy market is much more complex, or is it?

    http://finance.yahoo.com/q/bc?s=EKDKQ&t=my&l=on&z=l&q=l&c=

    • Ophelia Rump

      Youze guyz, just ship da container over to da existing plant, you remove da coal parts, stick da Cat into da boiler where the coal used to go, plug her in and power her up.

      OK, that was a gross oversimplification of a complex retrofit, but it is a reasonable elevator pitch for one. I hope the rollout lasts a lifetime, because there will not be enough bodies on this planet to fill all the potential jobs which it provides the opportunity for.

      • John De Herrera

        “stick da Cat into da boiler”
        Oh YES! The basic heat producing Energy Reactor has been working for over three years – let’s get the show on the road. Then continue experimenting with production of electricity. When there are working reactors, the world will know this is real.
        JDH

  • Gerrit

    two days ago Rossi mentioned that a 1 MW plant will be installed in a production environment at a customer for continuous operation. Together with the finalization of the 3rd indipendent party report, this looks like it will not take a decade long development period to get more plants operational for heat production in industrial applications.

    What will surely take a longer time is the science part and all the future applications that might become possible or improved because of it.
    I just hope the LENR story will not get bogged down due to patent wars.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Yes, product is designed and ready for production, factory built. Roll-out is imminent.

  • Gerrit

    two days ago Rossi mentioned that a 1 MW plant will be installed in a production environment at a customer for continuous operation. Together with the finalization of the 3rd indipendent party report, this looks like it will not take a decade long development period to get more plants operational for heat production in industrial applications.

    What will surely take a longer time is the science part and all the future applications that might become possible or improved because of it.
    I just hope the LENR story will not get bogged down due to patent wars.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Yes, product is designed and ready for production, factory built. Roll-out is imminent.
      Countdown is pending completion of final pre-countdown checklist.

      I concur with your evaluation completely.

  • acg3

    The lords and kings cried the same thing when the masses started to learn how to read and right. The horse breeders were like “nooo…. dont go for the evil automobile contraption”. The daily planets, gazettes, and bees tried to hold on to their control over the masses as long as they could. Goners and good riddens.

    • spelling police

      The lords and kings needn’t have worried, just as God needn’t have worried when Adam started to learn write from wrong.

      Adam was taken for a rid.

  • spelling police

    The lords and kings needn’t have worried, just as God needn’t have worried when Adam started to learn write from wrong.

    Adam was taken for a rid.