Andrea Rossi's 1978 Waste-to-Fuel Patent

I am grateful to Mats Lewan for making available to me this pdf of the patent filed by Andrea Rossi in 1978 for a waste-to-fuel process that we mentioned here yesterday. The title of the patent (translated from Italian by Google) is “Procedure for the recovery of industrial and urban waste. Apparatus and relative productivity obtained”. Rossi has claimed that the process being used in the Waste-to-Biofuels and Chemicals Facility in Edmonton, Canada — built and operated by Enerkem Alberta Biofuels — is based on his work.

I don’t know of any way to verify how closely the Enerkem plant resembles the process described in this patent — the overall concept is of course similar, but I am sure that there have been technological and engineering developments over the years that will have resulted in changes taking place.

This doesn’t have much relevance to the E-Cat, but this is an interesting item in connection with Andrea Rossi who has had a lifetime of involvement in various energy production inventions.

The patent is all in Italian — if any Italian speakers read it and would care to comment, I know it would be appreciated!

BREVETTO PETROLIO – 1978 by ecatworld

  • bitplayer

    There was a notion posted at one time (by Christine?) that Rossi may have made observations while working on his waste-to-fuel converter that led to his work in LENR. Which leads me to wonder where in the patent there might be mention of catalysts or catalytic converters.

    • artefact

      The bergius process (method of production of liquid hydrocarbons) uses Nickel or other catalysts (tin, iron etc.), Hydrogen and heat:
      http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergius_process

    • friendlyprogrammer

      Rossi also published a book when he was 28. I think it was a book on waste management as well so that would be a lifetime dedicated to environmental science if not influenced by.

      • bitplayer

        Nice tie into Darden

  • Andreas Moraitis

    There are two patents by Enerkem – both provisional applications – on the “Production of ethanol from methanol”. The second one seems to be a follow-up version:

    http://stks.freshpatents.com/Enerkem-nm1.php

    They mention that the synthesis gas can be produced from biomass, but the process itself is apparently not included. There is a reference to a “U.S. published patent application No. 2007/0270511”. This is a patent by “Woodland Chemical Systems Inc.“ with the title “System and method for converting biomass to ethanol via syngas“:

    http://www.google.com/patents/US20070270511

    Here you can find citations of many other patents. Maybe one could follow this trail back to Rossi.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    There are two patents by Enerkem – both provisional applications – on the “Production of ethanol from methanol”. The second one seems to be a follow-up version:

    http://stks.freshpatents.com/Enerkem-nm1.php

    They mention that the synthesis gas can be produced from biomass, but the process itself is apparently not included. There is a reference to a “U.S. published patent application No. 2007/0270511”. This is a patent by “Woodland Chemical Systems Inc.“ with the title “System and method for converting biomass to ethanol via syngas“:

    http://www.google.com/patents/US20070270511

    Here you can find citations of many other patents. Maybe one could follow this trail back to Rossi.

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

    I am not technical, by any means.

    To understand this myself, I tried to very synthetically and liberally translate.

    The patent describes the dry burning, in absence of oxygen/not in contact with air, at a certain temperature (250-500°C) and pressure (1-5 atmospheres) of garbage/waste, creating a result of 3 types of synthetic hydrocarbons (with the prefix “refluo-” which can not only be translated as “waste-” because there is also a “reflux” – reversing flux – concept in the etymology of the word in Italian). The process is called a “dry distillation”. There is also a concept of ‘self-sustainability’ of the motorized procedure (pages 6, 7): after it has been initiated through an initial input of some oil or methane gas fuelled engine, subsequently the engine should function with the “reflux-gas” produced in the process described in the patent.

    These three types of synthetic hydrocarbons (I use the terminology from the very interesting post by artefact, here below) produced are: a liquid (likened to petroleum), a gas (likened to methane) and a solid (likened to coke, or mineral carbon).

    Page 3 shows the quantity output per each type from 1 Kg of “refuse” or waste, or garbage. As everyone can see, the efficiency is described to be 30% (1,000 kg/hr of garbage/waste gives 300 kg of “reflux-oil”).

    The “dry distillation” of “urban refuse” or “urban waste/garbage” is thought to cause the “cracking” of molecules “with the formation of saturated or unsaturated hydrocarbon chains that have a relatively low number of carbon atoms, possibly with tied N, S or O that form a mix of composites showing a behaviour that is very similar to crude oil/petroleum”. “Other byproducts, such as N organic compounds or thio-organic, acid inorganic, such as hydrochloric or sulphydric acids, alcohols, tar byproducts, inorganic salts, ashes, etc. can also obviously be formed in this process”.

    The processing of garbage in the world is a huge problem.

    For decades in Italy (just as an example) all types of garbage and waste, dangerous and not, has been thrown in landfills. Mostly the illegality of the business is the norm. It is common knowledge in Italy that the waste business is in the hands of organized crime (call it mafia or the other dozen of Italian names in the local dialect, depending on the region). Italy is witnessing an endless string of scandalous findings of crime and collusion with politics and politicians in this realm. Some frozen food companies (like Findus, Orogel http://www.ilfattoquotidiano.it/2014/02/03/campania-findus-e-orogel-in-fuga-la-rivolta-per-loro-e-tutta-terra-dei-fuochi/866068/.) do not purchase agricultural products from the “terra dei fuochi” (land of fires) where both organized crime and disorganized stupidity burn the garbage both in the landfills and on the roads, in open air (Campania felix). And this is just peanuts, there is so much more about waste in the air, in the earth, in the sea.

    Langkawi, a dream island on the Malaysian border with Thailand, has an incinerator – by no means modern; and the inhabitants are used to gather some dry fallen palm leaves and plastic bottles or whatever garbage, and burn them, probably to clean up a little of the ubiquitous garbage on sea, land and beaches. No information on cancer linked to dioxins and PCBs, but lots of praying…

    According to a documentary shown on German and French TV, some of our age-old nuclear plants (France, UK – check out minute 32:22 in the film) discharge some of their cooling waters directly into the sea (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vcaOX2rW0gc).

    Garbage is and has been always connected with earth-moving business: in Italy “earth-movement” is a business notoriously tied to the mafia, or organized crime. Not always, obviously. Hopefully.

    There was an article on the Guardian about someone jailed for exporting waste to Africa (http://www.theguardian.com/environment/2014/jun/20/man-jailed-illegal-exporting-electrical-waste-africa), what news. Romania is a big waste dump from Italy (https://mail.uevora.pt/pipermail/ambio/2010-December/018552.html) and many ships have been sunk by organized crime around Italian coastlines (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_waste_dumping_by_the_%27Ndrangheta and http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8257912.stm). I doubt the Baltic Sea is completely free from this sort of problems.

    To cut a long story short, in my opinion, there is a convergence of necessity between our waste producing in-civilization and the hunger for energy. Thinking about Mitsubishi Heavy Industries’ trasmutation patent, especially after Fukushima, makes the subject of waste quite intertwined with energy. Both subjects seem (to me) to have a direct effect on the future of human survival (we speak about the bees and neonicotinoids next time).

    • Frank Acland

      Thanks very much for your translation assistance!

    • Broncobet

      The release of nuclear plant cooling water into the sea is not pollution except for the small amount of heat it caries ,which can be mitigated by dilution, the rest of the post makes sense.

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        Thank you. And I really mean it, because I have always feared that there might be sloppiness, carelessness, greed, covering up major blunders etc. in nuclear plants’ management. So the rest of the ignorant crowd like me would not know the cooling water outflow is uncontaminated or always pure unless it is monitored, measured, or scientifically proven to be harmless.

        • bachcole

          I think that Fredda meant “always pure unless it is monitored, measured, or scientifically proven to be harmful“.

          I believe that the correct meaning is the Fredda is being artfully sarcastic and pointing out that the burden of proof lies with the nuclear power plant and their need to prove that the outflow is good.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            Outflows should be proven by third independent parties. It almost never is the case. “Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?”

          • Broncobet

            I have to point out one more thing about waste and pollution. We were not the first to breathe air, the life first here took in CO2 and exuded Oxigen as a waste product. So one life forms’ meat is another’s poison.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            My ignorance is unlimited, always grateful for learning.
            Air pollution in LA: http://www.latimes.com/science/la-me-0430-air-pollution-20140430-story.html
            Air pollution (NOx’s & SOx’s) in Po Valley: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22170095
            Air quality Shanghai: http://aqicn.org/city/shanghai/

          • Broncobet

            So are you saying that China doesn’t have the worst pollution that the US ,doesn’t have very clean air, and the Po valley is not somewhere in between?

          • Broncobet

            How could it be otherwise? Do you imagine that they would take the company’s word for it? Nuclear energy is very tightly monitored here. They are measured in a thousand ways more tightly than the radioactivity of outflows. Just Google it.

        • Broncobet

          The nuclear plants in this country are very closely watched, but mistakes can happen, forty years ago they almost made a mistake that would have hurt no one. Newer plants will be much safer than the safe plants that they replace which have hurt no one.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda
          • bachcole

            Also, don’t forget that doctors and parents are looking for thyroid cancer.

            These are not dreadful stats for such a high population area, but not the end of the world scenario that many would have us believe. The population of Fukushima Prefecture is slightly over 2 million. I can’t help but think that the nuclear power plant played a roll with these cancers, but I don’t see the end of the world in sight.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            …do play a role with these cancers. Nobody has denied it. They just, today, can not scientifically link the cause to the effect.

          • Broncobet

            If you can’t see it it doesn’t exist. Halfway kidding but that’s what quantum mechanics says. I’m with you it seems like it would give them cancer but it turns out radiation is not nearly as bad as people believed. It wouldn’t matter if it killed a thousand,it’s safer than any energy source. I looked up that site with the GMO’s. I still think the benefits ,out way the negatives but have bookmarked that site to come back to. The US has very clean air and water,LA sits in a bowl and has the worst in the country and is miles ahead of China. I looked up the Po valley, I guess you have that bowl effect too. Do companies burn coal there? Don’t you have catalytic converters on your cars? Your home has been a very productive place for all sorts of technology going back centuries.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            PS I did look up FHR UCB. I need another degree or perhaps two (academically speaking), but the outcome seems promising.
            Any process that becomes uncontrollable will, and unfortunately mankind is special at blundering even simple processes. And mankind fears ‘losing face’ more than the consequences of a blunder, which inevitably worsens the scenarios.
            Take a look at Isao Hashimoto’s 14 minutes of art on what we have been capable of doing in 65 years. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLCF7vPanrY
            By the way, neither Chernobyl nor Fukushima are solved problems (contamination and radiation wise), years down the line. http://www.globalresearch.ca/new-book-concludes-chernobyl-death-toll-985-000-mostly-from-cancer/20908
            And they don’t seem cheap (where feasible) jobs to deal with, either.

            Bowl effect is correct for the Po valley, and yes there are coal plants http://www.assocarboni.it/index.php/it/il-carbone/le-centrali-a-carbone-in-italia. Funny enough, two of them are located in one of the most historically and artistically famous places in the world, Venezia.
            Yes, Italy was extremely productive. Hundreds of thousands of small businesses (the country’s backbone, hard working, tax paying crowd) closed these past two years alone. Gone. The large industry, where not the garbage mafia, has left pollution (ILVA steel plant is an example http://www.ansa.it/sito/notizie/politica/2014/07/03/ilva-iss-a-taranto-21-mortalita-infantile-_520ec007-46c4-46cc-9dbc-654b2b34d7c9.html) and death.

            Not a pretty picture for our kids.

          • Broncobet

            It’s to bad your parent generation left you with coal plants.I think I saw that plant in 1970,is on a little island in Venice ,of coarse the water was filthy. Asians are big on “losing face” . In America we’re big on second chances. If we took the position that man will always blunder then we would never get out of the caves. It is simple to clean up radiation; one thing is to sweep the ground up. Remember we have never had an accident that hurt a member of the public. They are always advancing the science that is what that Asian car maker is doing with their LENR program.There are always advances in the industry. If renewables are so great,what are you doing with coal plants?? I guess what the Germans are doing burning lots of coal and polluting on a vast scale. So you know coal has Uranim in it so you are exposed to more radiation from a coal plant. The steel industry will relocate to the US so they can use our inexpensive energy. Remember through evolution you’ve had time to deal with radiation, it is all around you.

          • Broncobet

            Fredda,thanks for the reply. I looked up the links you provided, they show no increase in thyroid cancer at the hottest spot in Fukashima since they received millions of times more radiation than anything in the US an intelligent observer would conclude they weren’t the cause of any deaths in the US. I did some research and went to the NRC web page and they say Three Mile Island was the worst nuclear disaster in the US but no increase in cancer in the area,Contrast that with the 10,000 in the US each year from coal. Coal of course contains Uranium,almost every piece of Earth does, it’s in seawater for example. This is small in comparison to the regular, Sulpher,and soot pollution ,from coal burning in China etc. which kill 10,000,000 humans each year. Does that make you understand why China has the most aggressive nuclear program on the planet?

          • bachcole

            I think that people get a three fold thrill out of their conspiracy theories. They get to do the kum ba ya and they get to make the establishment wrong and them right.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            My point is simply that there is respect involved; often the establishment decides for all, making mistakes and not admitting them because of the privilege pockets which have been created. The few who benefit from these mistakes lobby for their continuation.

          • Broncobet

            Yup

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            Broncobet, I am not arguing that there is no pollution apart from radiation.
            We ingest, breathe and drink an incredible amount of chemicals, hormones, pesticides, GMOs, heavy metals. Willingly through gadgets like suncreams (nanoparticles) and shoes (third world production of goods without any environmental consideration), unwillingly through substances such as hormones and low dosage antibiotics that are fed to the horrifically reared and industrially processed animals we buy, and unwittingly through the hydrocarbons and dioxins that are released in atmosphere.
            The problem with everything is that we human beings are messy, greedy, mean and have difficulty in recognizing mistakes: we (only rarely, naturally) prefer to shush and deny, even faced with evidence.
            So the problem with fission may not so much be the fission in itself, but the ego of the chief of the plant (Chernobyl), who one evening wants to test it to its limits and beyond, for his own agenda. Or the problem may be the genius(es) who placed two diesel generators at ground level in a 6-reactor nuclear plant located in one of the most active seismic areas in the world (Fukushima), where tsunamis are forecasted and a known threat.
            China may (and will) aggressively pursue its fission program, the UK pursue its fracking ambitions in national parks, and Peru can pass a law by which protesters or activists can legally be killed by police forces with complete impunity.
            All this can not stop some people discussing and questioning the subjects, trying to find more information, reasonable alternatives.
            Or, perhaps, the best thing is to hope for a swift colonization of Mars – as Earth may be truly doomed. I check my ego at the door.

          • Broncobet

            Getting us going on Mars would mark a great day in human history, with the need to do the exact opposite of what’s needed here. On Mars we want as much Co2 and Chloro fluorocarbons,methane, and water. All these thing are contained in asteroids and comets situated as if purposely left for us. The first thing is to stop polluting our beautiful home.I care very much about our environment here, what bothers me is what bothers you.Even if you cleaned up every thing there would still be the CO2 from gas plants,that’s why fission is needed,don’t even mention solar which so far has not produced ONE of the 500 exojoueles needed each year ,besides advanced nuclear will allow the highest amount of renewables to be integrated. I have to agree with you on the threats and their danger. Hormones,mostly contraceptives very bad we need work there, pesticides agree, very dangerous and already hurting our friends and allies the bees.Heavy metals Mercury from coal is the worst of these dangers and the only way to slow their increase is very rapid expansion of nuclear(lucky for us China has the correct policy,which is sad since we are a democracy and should do better. Your one mistake is GMO’s,they are very underused.They are the only way to reduce pesticide.For ex. cotton uses a 1/4 th of all pesticide use GMO’s would cut their use a lot. When you say “we breathe”I don’t think you or I can appreciate how bad the air can get.Antibiotics,big problem, but thank god I got some yesterday as this strep infection made me feel like death. Would you google” FHR UCB” It is the advanced plant we are building with the Chinese,now that will permit large scale use of wind and solar. I was very pleased to note that Briton will build three AP 1000’s at a plant there,they have been very tardy in taking care of their energy and this is the best option currently. I am very disturbed by the frogs going extinct,due to fungus, I’m sure it bothers you too. I also have opinions on that Conoco case but this is too long. It would be really exciting if any of these CF or LENR contraptions worked, wouldn’t it?

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            Thank you for the time.
            Yes, it is about where we live, and how. How our kids can and will live, wherever they are.
            When I say “we” breathe, it is because wherever you go, you can see the blackish-orange air on the horizon; if you live in the Pianura Padana (the Po valley in Italy) you might as well be in Shanghai. If you go to Dubai and observe the skyline, or in LA, or you land in Milan, you can see the pollution. It is “haze”.
            About GMOs, the problem is that we do not know the long term consequences of what is being genetically modified. Certain branded crop seeds have sinister names, like the missiles: “cruiser”. Wherever they are planted these industrially owned and patented seeds create problems either for bees (which are vital for human beings, pollination almost entirely depends on them) or problems for other natural crops. One has to purchase more seeds because they do not reproduce. Plus, the long term consequences of ingested GMOs by humans remain uncharted territory, an educated guess at best.
            About antibiotics, the problem is that they are used in low dosages to prevent livestock animals living in normally unsurvivable conditions (amassed in very small confined spaces, in unhealthy conditions) from perishing. These antibiotics used to maximize profits (combined with hormones which make animals gain more weight and grow at a much faster pace) have now made viruses and bacteria extremely resistant. Now in hospitals weaker patients die because antibiotics do not work any more against these super viruses and bacteria.
            About the 500 exajoules, the nuclear plants are just often poorly built and managed, again, to maximize profits. Organizations are corrupt, and those who are regularly short changed are the environment and people, citizens.
            We cold go on for eons.
            Everything boils down to this one hope for cold fusion, possibly a gigantic step, finally, in the right direction.
            The other steps may soon follow.

          • bachcole

            I hate to brag and all, but I have been in Colorado Springs for just short of 18 years and I can’t remember a single time that I saw smog or atmospheric pollution.

          • Broncobet

            If you go back fifty years, then you’d see some.

          • Broncobet

            When you say the air at your home is as bad as Shangnhi,I don’t have to look it up,we know that is not true. I live in Las Vegas the air is very clear here,it’s true if you go up the mountain and look across the valley you can see some haze. I take it you are younger than my 62 years and have never seen pollution.When I was young we had much higher levels of pollution, mostly Sulpher .All the pollution made beautiful sunsets.Anyway in the US we passed the clean air act and the clean water act,they work very well. You are very wrong about GMO’s we need more of them and we don’t need any labels on them either.GMO’s mean less pesticides.What do you care you live in Europe a backward land with no GMO’s,so you mandate the use of pesticides,or you can go organic and starve people. The people selling seeds are in business they’ve been doing it for 12,000 years,they keep improving their product. As you know I share your concern for the bees.They’d be OK if some one had planted GMO’s so pesticide would be used less.Nuclear plants are constructed very well,we haven’t had a person killed by them here ever,from commercial operations. People are corrupt if you give them a chance. The most corrupt have been in this very business we are discussing here. Alchemists claimed they could turn lead into gold the same thing they claim here. I know nuclear is overly monitored and safe in the US and EU it’s still safer even with the failures because coal kills so many .You close nuclear you are a murderer. When you say “we don’t know educated guess at best” no. That’s you. You don’t know.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            Yes, I know I do not know. And have no vis polemica, only questions.
            The US is a wonderful Country of opportunity, but one where children shoot other children. I mean it has good and bad, as everywhere does. Surely the freedom of enterprise, and (in most cases) of expression, is the reason Rossi left corrupt Italy for the US.
            GMOs might be a good thing to reduce the use of pesticides, provided they do not create a bigger or equivalent problem (http://www.responsibletechnology.org/health-risks).
            About nuclear (current fission) sloppiness, there are articles covering the civil issue http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonchang/2014/06/22/will-china-export-the-next-chernobyl/ and the military issue (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/25/eric-schlosser-nuclear-weapons-command-control).
            One can only try to keep informed, opinions may change through information and goodwill. Fur us ignorant people this is a very constructive approach.

  • Redford

    Rossi was doing this in 1978, a real pioneer. 46 years later, the tech must have evolve a lot but at that stage, it’s sufficient to note that he was already the first on an idea that seemed incredible at the time and prove to work on the long run, if not by him, then by next generations. If that’s what happens to LENR, it’s still pretty good news.

    • Frank Acland

      Frank Acland:
      When I applied for that patent I was 27 years old, with a 6 years experience in production of waste to energy plants and air pollution control systems. I designed, patented and manufactured my plants, and used to go personally to sell them. At those times my competitors called me “the Caterpillar” for the amount of work I was able to do…wherever there was a plant to do, I was there ( he,he,he…it was not easy to beat me in a competition to get a Customer). Then I put in the tech of this patent all the money earned, and lost everything in 1995 ( seehttp://www.ingandrearossi.com).
      Warm Regards,
      A.R.

      • Mike

        It could be interesting to know exactly what the Rossi patent dealt with. The Canadian plant uses gasification to get a syngas. Then the syngas is further used in catalysts to get the products wanted. There is nothing extraordinary new. Large volumes of natural gas is turned into syngas for further use. Several ways of using syngas have been used since the introduction of Fischer-Tropsch process in the 1920’s

  • ecatworld

    Frank Acland:
    When I applied for that patent I was 27 years old, with a 6 years experience in production of waste to energy plants and air pollution control systems. I designed, patented and manufactured my plants, and used to go personally to sell them. At those times my competitors called me “the Caterpillar” for the amount of work I was able to do…wherever there was a plant to do, I was there ( he,he,he…it was not easy to beat me in a competition to get a Customer). Then I put in the tech of this patent all the money earned, and lost everything in 1995 ( seehttp://www.ingandrearossi.com).
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • Pierre Ordinaire

    GreenWin says:

    “Morning fellas.

    Rosie claims to have a “safety certificate” from SGS for his industrial E-Cat. But skeps know these things is easily faked. Well, this morning a Senior Skep sends a red flag onna story about fakes:

    http://www.eco-business.com/news/audit-finds-fake-certificates-parts-nuclear-plants/

    Like we really need someone tells us its easy to buy a certificate. It’s bad for business.”

    • Maxfield Q Norse

      That story is about faked safety inspection certificates for parts used in fission nuclear plants.

      What has that got to do with LENR fusion? Or Rossi? Or E-Cats?

      I am lost on what you are trying to say.

  • Hope4Dbest

    GreenWin says:

    “Morning fellas.

    Rosie claims to have a “safety certificate” from SGS for his industrial E-Cat. But skeps know these things is easily faked. Well, this morning a Senior Skep sends a red flag onna story about fakes:

    http://www.eco-business.com/news/audit-finds-fake-certificates-parts-nuclear-plants/

    Like we really need someone tells us its easy to buy a certificate. It’s bad for business.”

    • Maxfield Q Norse

      That story is about faked safety inspection certificates for parts used in fission nuclear plants. What has that got to do with LENR fusion? Or Rossi? Or E-Cats?

      I am lost on what you are trying to say. Why are you repeatedly starting with “GreenWin says:” ?

      How can I know that GreenWin really said that? I cannot, so I must disregard that as unknowable.
      Why are you taking GreenWin’s words out of context and using them to make statements?

      Please can you find your own words and use them? I feel like you would really like to say something, but if you never just speak your words, we will never know what that something is. I would like to hear what you genuinely want to say, whether I agree or disagree with what you might say.

      • Hector McNuget

        Is not missing the context! But! The Greenwin is to make the strange words and threats on other ecat page. Is the mass confusion of happenings hre and there. Which is the Greenwin of truth – which is the agenda man?

        • Maxfield Q Norse

          So, this is about stalking GreenWin across the internet?
          There is some grudge that multiple internet personas are hunting him down for? And you all view this as legitimate behavior?

    • Mike

      As far as I can remember was the SGS document a certification of existing safety documents. I cannot remember any test that really checked the safety. It is nomal to actually test an appliance for fail-to-safe functions, that the appliance is safely shut down if a temperature sensor fails etc. This is done for all relevant CE tests. Ask DVGW, Kiwa or any laboratory involved in testing and certification.

  • blanco69

    There must be some differences. Rossi’s tech is over 35 years old. Plus you’d think that market conditions currently are more ripe for this now than they were back in ’78. Still, they won’t be for long. Once we’re all in ecat cars, the bottom will fall out of the biofuels market. So maybe Rossi wishing them good luck is a joke.

  • Gerrit

    [OT]
    I have been following the ecat story since April 2011, thus next month, July 2014, will be the 40th month. In the bible the number 40 represents “a period of testing or judgement”.

    I spent many months to read through the scientific literature, it learned me a lot about how the science business is run. I spent numerous hours on internet forums replying to ignorants and trolls, it learned me a lot about how people argue their fixed point of view and refuse to think for themselves.

    There were many highlights, like the start of SKINR at the University of Missouri or the LENR announcements by NASA. There were a few well done articles in the press, but unfortunately the mainstream science “journalists” are still hiding under their rocks of mainstream conformity.

    I am convinced that there is a lot to be discovered in the coming years and decades, but there is still not much tangible evidence for me personally after these almost 40 months of “trail period”.

    I have somber thoughts that, even if the report will be conclusive and a first 1MW plant will be in operation, the stakeholders in current science and energy will lobby to slow down the transition process in USA and Europe.

    • Daniel Maris

      They might slow it down, but they can’t stop it – if it’s real.

    • Maxfield Q Norse

      The train is leaving the station, anyone can choose to climb on board at any time, or be left behind. Those are the only options remaining.

  • Gerrit

    [OT]
    I have been following the ecat story since April 2011, thus next month, July 2014, will be the 40th month. In the bible the number 40 represents “a period of testing or judgement”.

    I spent many months to read through the scientific literature, it learned me a lot about how the science business is run. I spent numerous hours on internet forums replying to ignorants and trolls, it learned me a lot about how people argue their fixed point of view and refuse to think for themselves.

    There were many highlights, like the start of SKINR at the University of Missouri or the LENR announcements by NASA. There were a few well done articles in the press, but unfortunately the mainstream science “journalists” are still hiding under their rocks of mainstream conformity.

    I am convinced that there is a lot to be discovered in the coming years and decades, but there is still not much tangible evidence for me personally after these almost 40 months of “trail period”.

    I have somber thoughts that, even if the report will be conclusive and a first 1MW plant will be in operation, the stakeholders in current science and energy will lobby to slow down the transition process in USA and Europe.

    • Maxfield Q Norse

      The train is leaving the station, anyone can choose to climb on board at any time, or be left behind. Those are the only options remaining.

    • Broncobet

      You probably meant to say “trial” period, yes you’d think after twenty five years we’d have something to look at. What can it hurt to wait another twenty five years? I hope we don’t close our coal plants without nuclear, wind or solar, to replace it but they are so lazy they’ll just put up gas turbines. If the Rossi effect is real and economical, it will provide the energy.

  • Maxfield Q Norse

    So, this is about stalking GreenWin across the internet?
    There is some grudge that multiple internet personas are hunting him down for? And you all view this as legitimate behavior?

    • Veblin

      I love a sock puppet mystery show. Pierre Ordinaire has a two year history of being your kinder gentler reasonable skeptic.

      He does have a voice but is not real active.
      LENR, maybe?
      Rossie, prove it!
      Free Energy, everything seen so far is a scam.

      I suspect there is more to PO than we know.
      What is your connection to ECN? Who are you there?
      Why did you become pseudo ECN GreenWin 16 days ago.
      Why was Hector McNuget born 16 days ago?
      Do you have any connection to Gary Wright climbing out of his hole and posting three times on ECN 16 to 19 days ago?

      Do you love yachts and sailing?
      Discussion on CNN
      Steve Jobs’ yacht revealed, christened ‘Venus’
      Pierre Ordinaire • 2 years ago
      Actually the Goddess of prosperity was Abundantia, and the Goddess of victory, Victoria
      Discussion on Pure Energy Blog
      Pierre Ordinaire • 8 months ago
      Many years ago, I crewed in Puerto Rico for an industrialist on his racing 43′ sailboat.

      Are you George ( I need a sail for my boat) Hody – Al Potenza –
      maryyugo – other pups – It might be nice to again use my real pseudonym, LOL?
      Are you kemosabe – Joshua Cude = Popeye – other pups?
      Are you Gary Wright and other pups I don’t remember and don’t care to look up?

      Have savior fair Pierre Ordinaire.

      Defend yourself. The charge is Sock Puppetry.

      • bachcole

        I will stand with the proposition that all free energy (NOT almost free, NOT extremely inexpensive, but free energy with NO physical input or physical source) IS a scam.
        Roger Bird

        Subject: Re: New comment posted on Andrea Rossi’s 1978 Waste-to-Fuel Patent

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

    Description of the “apparatus” Page 4- :

    “- an automatic garbage loading/’feeding’ unit

    – an airtight distillation chamber

    – a combustion chamber provided with a burner

    – a refrigerator

    – a tank for the collection of “reflux-petroleum” provided with a pressure release valve for the exit of “reflux-gas”

    – a tank for the collection of “reflux-gas” or piping for the supply of this “reflux-gas” to the burner.”.
    The images:
    “Figure 1 is the lateral view of the apparatus.
    Figure 2 is the A-A section of the figure 1
    Figure 3 is a schematic plan view of figure 1 (…)
    The distillation chamber (1) has two lateral guillotine hatches, (2) and (3), of which one, (2), communicating with the automatic loader/feeder (4), and the other one (3) with a watertight large vat (5).
    The automatic loader/feeder (4) features a shovel

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

    Description of the “apparatus” in the patent. Pages 4-8:

    The device is composed of

    “- an automatic garbage loading/’feeding’ unit

    – an airtight distillation chamber

    – a combustion chamber provided with a burner

    – a refrigerator

    – a tank for the collection of “reflux-petroleum” provided with a pressure release valve for the exit of “reflux-gas”

    – a tank for the collection of “reflux-gas” or piping for the supply of this “reflux-gas” to the burner.”.
    The images:
    “Figure 1 is the lateral view of the apparatus.
    Figure 2 is the A-A section of the figure 1
    Figure 3 is a schematic plan view of figure 1 “(…)
    “The distillation chamber (1) has two lateral guillotine hatches, (2) and (3), of which one, (2), communicating with the automatic loader/feeder (4), and the other one (3) with a sealed (air/watertight?) large vat (5).
    The automatic loader/feeder (4) features a shovel (6) moved by an oleodynamic piston (7) and a chamber (8) in communication with the distillation chamber (1) through the hatch (2). The chamber (8) is closed at the top with a lid (9).
    The garbage/waste is loaded through the lid (9) that is opened only when the guillotine hatch (2) is shut, so that external air is guaranteed not to enter.
    Once the lid (9) is closed, the guillotine hatch (2) opens, the piston (7) shoves the garbage/waste ahead in the chamber (1) with the shovel (6); subsequently the shovel retreats and the hatch (2) closes. During a subsequent phase, before a new load is made in the same way, the hatch (2) opens, with the lid (9) shut: the piston (7) this time advances to the inner back of the distillation chamber (1), where the second hatch (3) is located, so that the residue is discharged in the sealed (air/watertight?) vat where the “reflux-coke”, composed of distillation residue, will accumulate. The piston (7) command has four buttons, two, forward/backward, to shove the garbage/waste in the chamber (1), and two, forward/backward, to discharge the “reflux-coke” in the vat (5). The vat (5) has a top lid (Italian used here ‘hood’ as in the engine hood of a car, the translator assumes is a cover or lid of sorts) (10) which can be opened when the side hatch (3) is shut, so that no air can enter the chamber (1) during the “reflux-coke” evacuation. Under the distillation chamber (1) there is the burner, composed of a combustion chamber (11) which is well insulated on the four sides and on the bottom, whereas the top surface is made of a stainless steel sheet (12). Such combustion chamber (11) works as a crucible, transmitting heat to the distillation chamber, both through direct heat conduction and through convection, given the upward movement of the hot air generated within the distillation chamber (1).
    The heat to the combustion chamber (11) is provided by a gas burner (13) which, once the cycle is in function, is composed of the very “reflux-gas” that is produced by the garbage/waste distillation.
    The gas’s combustion air is pre-heated in a heat recovering device/unit (14), which takes advantage of the relevant heat contained in the outflow fumes, transmitting part of this heat to the air suctioned by the fan that is incorporated in the gas burner.
    Thus, the consumption of “reflux-gas” is limited to the minimum necessary. The burner consumes 8 + 10 m3/h “reflux-gas”. The remaining “reflux-gas” can be supplied for potential (different, additional – translator note) uses.
    As the process starts, before the cycle stabilizes and the “reflux-gas” is produced, the burner functions with oil or methane gas. Garbage/waste having a good calorific power can be burned in the combustion chamber, such as paper, wood, or solid urban waste, which has a calorific power of approximately 1,500 kcal/kg.
    Above the distillation chamber (1) there is a hood (15) out of which stem the tubes (16), each tube composed of two concentric tubes. Cooling water runs in the toroidal section of the two tubes, which is recycled by a pump (17) through an open vessel where water cools naturally. A hydraulic valve or float maintains the water level constant.
    The gas, condensed along the tubes (16) maintained at a 20°C temperature, becomes the “reflux-petroleum” in its liquid physical state and drips in the dedicated tank (19).
    From this tank (19) which features an air valve (20) the “reflux-gas” is conveyed partly to the burner (13) and partly dispensed outside. The garbage/waste loading system is easily automated by a timed conveyor belt, synchronized the opening lids and the guillotine hatches, all timed as well, so that each movement is performed at each fixed time interval.”.

    Thereafter the cracking of the chemical aggregate molecules is assumed.

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

    Outflows should be proven by third independent parties. It almost never is the case. “Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?”

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

    …do play a role with these cancers. Nobody has denied it. They just, today, can not scientifically link the cause to the effect.

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

    My ignorance is unlimited, always grateful for learning.
    Air pollution in LA: http://www.latimes.com/science/la-me-0430-air-pollution-20140430-story.html
    Air pollution (NOx’s & SOx’s) in Po Valley: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22170095
    Air quality Shanghai: http://aqicn.org/city/shanghai/

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

    Yes, I know I do not know. And have no vis polemica, only questions.
    The US is a wonderful Country of opportunity, but one where children shoot other children. I mean it has good and bad, as everywhere does. Surely the freedom of enterprise, and (in most cases) of expression, is the reason Rossi left corrupt Italy for the US.
    GMOs might be a good thing to reduce the use of pesticides, provided they do not create a bigger or equivalent problem (http://www.responsibletechnology.org/health-risks).
    About nuclear (current fission) sloppiness, there are articles covering the civil issue http://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonchang/2014/06/22/will-china-export-the-next-chernobyl/ and the military issue (http://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/25/eric-schlosser-nuclear-weapons-command-control).
    One can only try to keep informed, opinions may change through information and goodwill. Fur us ignorant people this is a very constructive approach.

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

    PS I did look up FHR UCB. I need another degree or perhaps two (academically speaking), but the outcome seems promising.
    Any process that becomes uncontrollable will, and unfortunately mankind is special at blundering even simple processes. And mankind fears ‘losing face’ more than the consequences of a blunder, which inevitably worsens the scenarios.
    Take a look at Isao Hashimoto’s 14 minutes of art on what we have been capable of doing in 65 years. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LLCF7vPanrY
    By the way, neither Chernobyl nor Fukushima are solved problems (contamination and radiation wise), years down the line. http://www.globalresearch.ca/new-book-concludes-chernobyl-death-toll-985-000-mostly-from-cancer/20908
    And they don’t seem cheap (where feasible) jobs to deal with, either.

    Bowl effect is correct for the Po valley, and yes there are coal plants http://www.assocarboni.it/index.php/it/il-carbone/le-centrali-a-carbone-in-italia. Funny enough, two of them are located in one of the most historically and artistically famous places in the world, Venezia.
    Yes, Italy was extremely productive. Hundreds of thousands of small businesses (the country’s backbone, hard working, tax paying crowd) closed these past two years alone. Gone. The large industry, where not the garbage mafia, has left pollution (ILVA steel plant is an example http://www.ansa.it/sito/notizie/politica/2014/07/03/ilva-iss-a-taranto-21-mortalita-infantile-_520ec007-46c4-46cc-9dbc-654b2b34d7c9.html) and death.

    Not a pretty picture for our kids.