Rossi: Shipping Container Design Still in Use for 1MW Plants

Many of the available images available of the E-Cat are of the large blue shipping container inside which Andrea Rossi built his first plant in Italy. Yesterday Rossi explained that the new 1MW plant that they will install at a customer’s site on will be built in the same way:

Andrea Rossi
July 30th, 2014 at 8:11 AM
Toussaint:
In due time we will publish the photographies of the plant in operation. Anyway: the new series of 1MW ECAT ha substantial differences from the original prototype, but, yes, we use a standard container as external case. More compact, though. We maintained this solution to make the plants easy to transport and faster to build up.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

If I remember correctly I think the idea of building inside a shipping container was first suggested by a reader of the Journal of Nuclear Physics in the very early days. It sounds like there have been quite a few changes inside the plant, but it may be that from the outside they look very similar.

If Industrial Heat is going into mass production and distribution, then they will certainly need to be easy to ship, and there is plenty of infrastructure in place throughout the world that allows for easy transportation of containers by rail, sea and road.

Below is a picture of the early 1MW plant in transit.

 

Ecattransit
Source: Journal of Nuclear Physics

 http://s20.postimg.org/76il2bmkc/004.jpg

  • Owen Geiger

    Frank, the photo doesn’t appear on my computer.

    • ecatworld

      Thanks for letting me know. I’ll try and figure out why it’s not showing; seems okay in my browsers. I added a link for the original pic.

    • Private Citizen

      Server with the image might be blocking outside hotlinking?

      If i paste the link to the image directly in the browser it works for me:

      http://s20.postimg.org/76il2bmkc/004.jpg

  • Owen Geiger

    Frank, the photo doesn’t appear on my computer.

    • Frank Acland

      Thanks for letting me know. I’ll try and figure out why it’s not showing; seems okay in my browsers. I added a link for the original pic.

      • bachcole

        Frank, I use Firefox and my Operating System is Linux Mint, if that helps.

    • Private Citizen

      Server with the image might be blocking outside hotlinking?

      If i paste the link to the image directly in the browser it works for me:

      http://s20.postimg.org/76il2bmkc/004.jpg

  • Paul

    It is a practical choise, but aesthetically not a smart move. The horrible effect in seeing a stupid “box” could be (partially) mitigated panting the container with a logo and with appropriate colours/textures/graphics.

    • Billy Jackson

      I would point out that these are not production models but hand built. so they wont have the smooth looks of a manufactured item. you could always make an external clam shell casing for the container thats cosmetic only.

    • mcloki

      You can vinyl the outside of one of those in a day. If they are going to factories they don;t need anything fancy. But the ability to factory build these and ship them anywhere is brilliant. It will really help the rollout. Just the fact that they do no have to clean out space on a factory floor, pour concrete, make walls is a huge advantage

  • Paul

    It is a practical choise, but aesthetically not a smart move. The horrible effect in seeing a stupid “box” could be (partially) mitigated panting the container with a logo and with appropriate colours/textures/graphics.

    • Mats

      Why not make it look like a BIG AAAAAAAAAAAAAA battery ;-)?

    • Billy Jackson

      I would point out that these are not production models but hand built. so they wont have the smooth looks of a manufactured item. you could always make an external clam shell casing for the container thats cosmetic only.

    • mcloki

      You can vinyl the outside of one of those in a day. If they are going to factories they don;t need anything fancy. But the ability to factory build these and ship them anywhere is brilliant. It will really help the rollout. Just the fact that they do no have to clean out space on a factory floor, pour concrete, make walls is a huge advantage

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        Exactly. The shipping container idea is brilliant. Manufacture, ship by sea, plane or truck, deliver, connect external startup power and start her up. If more power is needed, order another container and hook it up in parallel.

  • bachcole

    Frank, the picture on my system is perfectly white without variation. (:->) In other words, I don’t seem to be getting the picture correctly. The word “Ecattransit” comes up, but that is it.

  • bachcole

    Frank, the picture on my system is perfectly white without variation. (:->) In other words, I don’t seem to be getting the picture correctly. The word “Ecattransit” comes up, but that is it.

  • Private Citizen

    Didn’t Rossi long ago design a mini 1-MW e-Cat? Why the train car size?

    Dear Dr Joseph Fine:

    You are perfectly right: in fact we are designing the new
    1 MW plants, for hot temperature, and the dimensions will be those of a
    cylinder with a diameter of 1.2 m and a lencth od 0.4 m.

    Is shocking, I myself are surprised, but it is so.

    Warmest Regards,

    A.R.

    • mcloki

      So these should be called Hot Rods.

      • Bernie777

        Ha, ha, very good!

      • bachcole

        That might be a reference that Rossi might not recognize. Hopefully an American speaker will help him out.

    • GreenWin

      These dimensions appear reversed if it is a “cylinder.”

      • Fortyniner

        Could be a ‘short, fat’ design envisaged as a housing for fairly large number of hot cat cores fitted between two perforated plates (assuming each unit similar in dimensions to the hollow ‘demo’ unit, i.e., about 400mm in length x 100mm diam.). If that is the case it might indicate some constraint on the maximum length of hot cat units, or an indication that c.400mm is an optimum size..

        At a guess, such a boiler could house between 50-100 cores, which would imply an output of 10-20kW for each reactor. In addition a feed chamber would be required at the bottom, plus a steam collection chamber at the top.

        • Ophelia Rump

          Not if you wish to keep it online, and at 100% efficiency.

          • Fortyniner

            er, not what?

    • Gerard McEk

      The design for a multi Hot-cat housing should indeed be totally different from the original boiling water design. I would think you bring the Hot-cats not insulated as near as possible together to heat a gas/steam flow inside a an insulated box/pipe with the purpose to heat the gaseous flow. If he is using the same original design container, then I would think he is using low temp. e-cats.

    • Mats

      For me it is a good sign that AR/IH refines and delivers the first design. This increase the chance to get a commersially working device as soon as possible. After that I will look forward to hotcats in jet turbines.

    • wonderboy

      Thanks for posting that, I was thinking the exact same.

      The only problem with a shipping container is that it doesn’t look professional. If he wants the wow factor when it hits the market, it should be sleek and beautiful. Companies with excess cash are the first who will buy this unproven technology, but who wants to show off an ugly ass shipping container?

      • Ophelia Rump

        I have seen in recent years a trend for entire plants to be built of shipping container sized units, control rooms in these look exactly like a shipping container.
        It makes sense.

        • Omega Z

          OR
          The U.S. has millions of shipping containers sitting unused.
          They cost to much to ship back to China, Etc while empty.
          Some innovative people are re-purposing them for other uses as they are cheap. Bomb shelters, Storm cellars, Micro apartments to name a few.

      • Owen Geiger

        Form follows function.

    • Omega Z

      That is what they were working with on the Hot-Cat for boiler attachment.
      The one in operation at a customers facilities is low temp.
      They are different with a different configuration.

  • Private Citizen

    Didn’t Rossi long ago design a mini 1-MW e-Cat? Why the train car size?

    Dear Dr Joseph Fine:

    You are perfectly right: in fact we are designing the new
    1 MW plants, for hot temperature, and the dimensions will be those of a
    cylinder with a diameter of 1.2 m and a lencth od 0.4 m.

    Is shocking, I myself are surprised, but it is so.

    Warmest Regards,

    A.R.

    • mcloki

      So these should be called Hot Rods.

      • clovis ray

        Your statement could hold some merit, we have only seen the short version, and several of the long type hot cats, could be encased also into a cylinder, for storage, and easy maintenance,

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Ha, ha, very good!

      • bachcole

        That might be a reference that Rossi might not recognize. Hopefully an American speaker will help him out.

    • GreenWin

      These dimensions appear reversed if it is a “cylinder.”

      • clovis ray

        This could be, hot rods, we have only short versions.

      • Could be a ‘short, fat’ design envisaged as a housing for fairly large number of hot cat cores fitted between two perforated plates (assuming each unit similar in dimensions to the hollow ‘demo’ unit, i.e., about 400mm in length x 100mm diam.). If that is the case it might indicate some constraint on the maximum length of hot cat units, or an indication that c.400mm is an optimum size..

        At a guess, such a boiler could house between 50-100 cores (depending on water volume required), which would imply an output of 10-20kW for each reactor. In addition a feed chamber would be required at the bottom, plus a steam collection chamber at the top, possibly doubling the overall height of such a vertical boiler.

        • Ophelia Rump

          Not if you wish to keep it online, and at 100% efficiency.

          • Assuming no redundancy is required.

    • Gerard McEk

      The design for a multi Hot-cat housing should indeed be totally different from the original boiling water design. I would think you bring the Hot-cats not insulated as near as possible together to heat a gas/steam flow inside a an insulated box/pipe with the purpose to heat the gaseous flow. If he is using the same original design container, then I would think he is using low temp. e-cats.

      • clovis ray

        i would venture a guess that the cylinder type design of the hot cat itself ,contained in a cylinder, for easy storage and maintenance.

        • Ophelia Rump

          I would venture a guess that each hot-cat would be housed in a piece of plumbing which would allow a single unit to be isolated and replaced, while the remaining units stay fully operational. The 7 x 24 365 operational standard would dictate this, and justify the use of adequate space and the additional plumbing required to provide that space.

          High Temperature High pressure steam requires significantly heavier plumbing than bath water. There may be competing factors shrinking the required size and increasing it at the same moment, at play here.

    • Mats

      For me it is a good sign that AR/IH refines and delivers the first design. This increase the chance to get a commersially working device as soon as possible. After that I will look forward to hotcats in jet turbines.

      • clovis ray

        agreed,

      • bachcole

        Are you THE Mats, as in Mats Lewan?

        • Mats

          No, but I have 2 copys of his book, both signed by him.

    • wonderboy

      Thanks for posting that, I was thinking the exact same.

      The only problem with a shipping container is that it doesn’t look professional. If he wants the wow factor when it hits the market, it should be sleek and beautiful. Companies with excess cash are the first who will buy this unproven technology, but who wants to show off an ugly ass shipping container?

      • clovis ray

        Hi, these units will be hidden away from public view, with the exception of the one that will be demoed , waste of money that would eventually drive up the cost.

      • Ophelia Rump

        I have seen in recent years a trend for entire plants to be built of shipping container sized units, control rooms in these look exactly like a shipping container.
        It makes sense. I passed such an office unit on highway just yesterday outside of Boston.

        • Omega Z

          OR
          The U.S. has millions of shipping containers sitting unused.
          They cost to much to ship back to China, Etc while empty.
          Some innovative people are re-purposing them for other uses as they are cheap. Bomb shelters, Storm cellars, Micro apartments to name a few.

      • Owen Geiger

        Form follows function.

      • Broncobet

        I thought it looked great.Like a piece of industrial machinery ready to do some useful work.

    • clovis ray

      Don’t fall off your stool, the dimensions was referencing the individual units that make up the 1 MW plant. would be my guess, not surprised at all, that they have made things more compact, the unit will undergo many changes over time i would predict, this is actually good news if true.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Wow, that is good news. How many Hot Rods (nice name Clovis!) do you think will fit in a shipping container? Sounds like a 10MWh/h (that’s scientifically correct, isn’t it?) should be possible…

    • Omega Z

      That is what they were working with on the Hot-Cat for boiler attachment.
      The one in operation at a customers facilities is low temp.
      They are different with a different configuration.

  • Christina

    “Rollin’, rollin, rollin, get those doggies rollin!
    Yeah, E-cat.

    Have a good day and may God bless you.

    Christina

    • bachcole

      God is blessing me all of the time. Whether I am capable of fully appreciating it depends mostly upon my choices. (:->)

    • Heh heh

  • Fortyniner

    AR: “More compact, though.”
    His original unit was installed in a non-standard 15′ ISO container. The next size down is half that size at 10′ (colour code, light blue), so the new units really are pretty compact it seems.

    http://www.containerhandbuch.de/chb_e/stra/index.html?/chb_e/stra/stra_03_02_00.html

    • bachcole

      Rossi may have designed the individual units to be more compact knowing that they were going to be put into a smaller container.

      • Ophelia Rump

        I have every confidence that the new units are more compact more efficient and larger than ever.

        I think they learned the difference between industrial and home plumbing in the first shipping container model.

      • Fortyniner

        Or maybe many fewer (2-stage) modules required as each has much higher output than the original type?

    • Omega Z

      Or maybe they all fit inside the same size container.
      None on top.

      • Fortyniner

        There definitely won’t be any units on top – that was just a kludge to get output up for testing. If the output per module has been upped to say 25kW each then 40 modules +5 to allow for failures, might be fitted into a 10′ container on three racks of 7-8 per side, or four racks of 5-6.

        • Omega Z

          This Unit was built with the intent of modules on top-
          http://postimg.org/image/h2jo1ysc9/full/

          However, this was pre Mouse/Cat. I would fully expect everything to fit in the container with room to spare for maintenance without removal. And as Rossi has said, this would simplify instillation. Especially handy at this early stage.

  • AR: “More compact, though.”
    His original unit was installed in a non-standard 15′ ISO container. The next size down is 10′ (colour code, light blue), although even smaller 8′ and 6′ containers are available, so the new units really are pretty compact it seems.

    • bachcole

      Rossi may have designed the individual units to be more compact knowing that they were going to be put into a smaller container.

      • Ophelia Rump

        I have every confidence that the new units are more compact more efficient and larger than ever.

        I think they learned the difference between industrial and home plumbing in the first shipping container model.

      • Or maybe many fewer (2-stage) modules required as each has much higher output than the original type?

    • Omega Z

      Or maybe they all fit inside the same size container.
      None on top.

      • There definitely won’t be any units on top – that was just a kludge to get output up for testing. If the output per module has been upped to say 25kW each then 40 modules +5 to allow for failures, might be fitted into a 10′ container on three racks of 7-8 or four racks of 5-6 per side,.

        • Omega Z

          This Unit was built with the intent of modules on top-
          http://postimg.org/image/h2jo1ysc9/full/

          However, this was pre Mouse/Cat. I would fully expect everything to fit in the container with room to spare for maintenance without removal. And as Rossi has said, this would simplify instillation. Especially handy at this early stage.

          • bachcole

            But how in literal hell does anyone go into that container and do any maintenance work?

  • Bernie777

    Rossi’s latest remarks on JONP are very positive, the next six months should be very exciting for us!

    • morse

      I don’t think the ecat will break through in the US. They have too much to lose and they want all the power concerning energy. They are already the biggest oil producer from shale gas. Rossi is a threat to them when his machine goes worldwide.

      • Heath

        What a cynical view. The US oil companies produce this oil not the US itself. Big Oil is a powerful lobbyist, true, but businesses will jump at the chance to find a way to reduce the cost of energy (since the price is fixed by global markets) for themselves and enterprising small businesses will find ways to get this technology into the hands of homeowners. As for the US government, they will rush to use this to reduce energy costs–the yearly expense for the DoD alone regarding fuel is extremely high.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Rossi’s latest remarks on JONP are very positive, the next six months should be very exciting for us!

    • morse

      I don’t think the ecat will break through in the US. They have too much to lose and they want all the power concerning energy. They are already the biggest oil producer from shale gas. Rossi is a threat to them when his machine goes worldwide.

      • stonemushroom

        Different matter in Europe, if the cold war gets going and Russia starts shutting down the gas pipelines, watch how quickly the EU Governments would usher in this new technology,if it works that is!

        • Ophelia Rump

          You have a point, it could become a War Technology or some such political nonsense. I assure you the adoption of that posture would become global. Where once there was a nuclear arms race, there would be a LENR deployment race. Distribution might become a matter of national security.
          This would be a global crime against humanity in the disguise of self interest.

          I hope the China deal has already precluded the successful deployment of that tactic.

          • bachcole

            I hate to seem to take the side of the warmongers and to dispute Ophelia the great crack-up artist, but I cannot see LENR increasing the likelihood of war at all. LENR cannot be used directly as a weapon. I doubt that a rail gun or a laser cannon is going to scare France or Muslim militants. More likely, the REASONS for war are going to greatly decrease. One of the main reasons for war is scarcity. Religious idiocy is another reason, and LENR will level the playing field in ALL oil rich countries so that those who have too much money and not enough morals will not have so much money to spread around to terrorists.

          • Ophelia Rump

            I did not mean the active form but the cold form of war. Were certain nations to adopt the technology while excluding others, the public would find the technology out of their reach. Such a thing would polarize.

            LENR as weapon, not for 20 years, war over LENR, hopefully not.
            Like I said somewhere in this thread, I hope the China deal ended the possibility of international division.

            If Europe and the US had LENR and China and Russia did not, what picture would we be looking at.

            You can have a war technology without the war.
            It is much like having cancer without the operation.

      • Heath

        What a cynical view. The US oil companies produce this oil not the US itself. Big Oil is a powerful lobbyist, true, but businesses will jump at the chance to find a way to reduce the cost of energy (since the price is fixed by global markets) for themselves and enterprising small businesses will find ways to get this technology into the hands of homeowners. As for the US government, they will rush to use this to reduce energy costs–the yearly expense for the DoD alone regarding fuel is extremely high.

        • Broncobet

          You hold the most correct view; however the people saying powers that be will not allow it are not completely wrong. Advances have been stymied many times by protectionist laws.The Dutch used to have a vast commercial empire. Their boats had a particular design. The PTB, England etc wrote laws banning the use of this design in trade with the Colonies and backed it up with the British navy. When someones ox is getting gored you can be sure they’ll be complaints. The logical thing and the most likely is that they buy and develop this tech themselves.The vast majority of big oil started as little oil.

  • Broncobet

    I don’t wish to be labeled gullible, but I thought the picture looks great and ready for business, you don’t need graphics, just heat and reliability. Every one wants the hotcats, just deliver the e cat first.If Rossi is on the level this would change the world,it’s getting harder to maintain my healthy skepticism. If it doesn’t work I will be so disappointed.

    • Ophelia Rump

      It is growing difficult to tell if you are impatient or simply insatiable in your doubt.
      It is fairly clear that nothing short of the product on the market will satisfy you.
      I am have the same target point for satisfaction. I am not sure I would refer to your state of being as healthy skepticism. What makes you think it is healthy?
      You seem stressed to me. For you health, I think you should just relax and enjoy the wait.

      A friend.

      • GreenWin

        Bronco is a hardened skeptic working to inject doubt (like Thomas) into the minds of those who know there are 1500 papers, replications, black project confirmations, private corp products & systems proving LENR is beyond a shadow of Broncism. 🙂 But let him wander in his depression of doubt – it makes a fine benchmark!

      • Broncobet

        Very funny ,what I hear from you is just nasty ,which is what you get at a stage of life.

    • don’t care about the photo.
      I care about the written documents, the thousands of articles, while 3 would be enough to be convinced, the million invested by businessmen, the test that are done, the numerous soft evidence that connect…
      It won’t be easy because it is reality, it is engineering, it is marlet disruption, it is industry, it is commercial wars…

      E-cat will take time, even if the test is positive and the powerplant is working well, but denying the reality of LENR is the summum of groupthink.
      If people confident in E-cat are clearly optimistic and can be wrong, I don’t see many honest skeptic who simply admit facts and raise concern about feasibility… I mostly see denial beside our optimism.

      how would you react if I bring you a company valued above 30bnEur asset value who enter the race to develop LENR technology ? I’m sure you will rationalize, deny, minimize… that is typical of Groupthink.

      afterall there are already
      Shell, Toyota, Mitsubishi, STMicro, Elforsk, SRI, Cherokee, Sunrise securities, Continuum Energy group, NASA GRC and NASA NARI, Navy Spawar, Navy NRL, ENEA,Norront AS…

      and to face that there is 4 refuted article abandoned by their author and which don’t apply to most of the modern LENr lab method.
      all claims are pure myth… frauds are proven… incompetence is proven… logical fallacies are documented and studied since the greek…

      this groupthink is desperate. only ignorance allow not to see it.

  • Broncobet

    I don’t wish to be labeled gullible, but I thought the picture looks great and ready for business, you don’t need graphics, just heat and reliability. Every one wants the hotcats, just deliver the e cat first.If Rossi is on the level this would change the world,it’s getting harder to maintain my healthy skepticism. If it doesn’t work I will be so disappointed.

    • Ophelia Rump

      It is growing difficult to tell if you are impatient or simply insatiable in your doubt.
      It is fairly clear that nothing short of the product on the market will satisfy you.
      I am have the same target point for satisfaction. I am not sure I would refer to your state of being as healthy skepticism. What makes you think it is healthy?
      You seem stressed to me. For your health, I think you should just relax and enjoy the wait.

      A friend.

      • bachcole

        Ophelia, you crack me up!!!

        A friend.

      • GreenWin

        Bronco is a hardened skeptic working to inject doubt (like Thomas) into the minds of those who know there are 1500 papers, replications, black project confirmations, private corp products & systems proving LENR is beyond a shadow of Broncism. 🙂 But let him wander in his depression of doubt – it makes a fine benchmark!

        • Broncobet

          GreenWin I have been watching this tech as every one else on this site and would be very excited if it is deployed, you are what AlainCo was referring to as a :True Believer” facts mean nothing to you and you stay within the flock, your thought ruled by”groupthink”(of course AlainCo applies the label quite differently than I). When I write I am excited by the picture of the shipping container which is supposed to be the 1MW plant I get jumped for saying “my healthy skepticism is harder to maintain”. For those with limited reading comprehension that means I was moving toward more belief.I would like someone to confirm that the picture of the shipping container is the one containing the ECat and not stock footage, like the Chinese bottling plant shown for a LENR company.Seeing is believing and that container looks so real with it’s external connections and protuberances. Information influences me;if it’s negative toward LENR I have doubts, if there are facts which shows it in a favorable light I have more belief in it. If we are having the same conversation in September wouldn’t that influence you? December? next spring? five or ten years? No matter how much faith you have in this field even you ,at some point,would have to reconsider. I think it’s likely that there will be positive information making waves in this discipline but it will be less and take longer than you think.

      • Broncobet

        Thank you for the response Ophelia. Your posts are among my favorites. Please note I was the one who said your previous image was fine, unlike the mob that felt otherwise. Your response seemed a little odd to me, because my post was stating that seeing is believing and that picture of the shipping container with it’s protrusions was surely a safe reliable clean provider of power and energy. I used my skepticism as a foil to my acceptance. Can’t I have any doubts? I must accept that the pilot plant works perfectly and IH will be a billion dollar company next year with at least 10% of US electricity provided in ten years? Is it possible? Of course they could do much better. If it’s everything Rossi claims and what you all swear to then yes, oil, coal, and natural gas futures and spot prices will take a swan dive.My opinion is that this tech will fall somewhere in between. It could by very valuable but not dominate energy markets. And there is a chance , all of you will say it’s zero,but I say it’s a number larger than zero, that everything in energy markets will not be dominated by LENR. Personally I really like AR, I will still like him even if IH goes nowhere,but I would be angry and upset with him that so many,including myself, had such high hopes.

      • Broncobet

        I said it was getting harder.

      • Broncobet

        Your powers of discernment are woefully lacking. I am not impatient. I am ready to hear any news on this subject and enjoy Frank’s efforts to keep us amused in the meantime. I t is you who have been so skeptical of BLP and SHT and I thought, rightly so, everyone in this space does not deserve our support. If I’m stressed you’re hysterical but I don’t think either of us are. Skepticism is healthy in moderate doses or when johhny goes to the store for some butter he’ll come back with a handful of magic beans. I like the scientific debate back and forth of new technology especially when it involves energy and think personal attacks are best left outside this arena. Warm regards.

      • Broncobet

        Very funny ,what I hear from you is just nasty ,which is what you get at a stage of life.

    • don’t care about the photo.
      I care about the written documents, the thousands of articles, while 3 would be enough to be convinced, the million invested by businessmen, the test that are done, the numerous soft evidence that connect…
      It won’t be easy because it is reality, it is engineering, it is marlet disruption, it is industry, it is commercial wars…

      E-cat will take time, even if the test is positive and the powerplant is working well, but denying the reality of LENR is the summum of groupthink.
      If people confident in E-cat are clearly optimistic and can be wrong, I don’t see many honest skeptic who simply admit facts and raise concern about feasibility… I mostly see denial beside our optimism.

      how would you react if I bring you a company valued above 30bnEur asset value who enter the race to develop LENR technology ? I’m sure you will rationalize, deny, minimize… that is typical of Groupthink.

      afterall there are already
      Shell, Toyota, Mitsubishi, STMicro, Elforsk, SRI, Cherokee, Sunrise securities, Continuum Energy group, NASA GRC and NASA NARI, Navy Spawar, Navy NRL, ENEA,Norront AS…

      and to face that there is 4 refuted article abandoned by their author and which don’t apply to most of the modern LENr lab method.
      all claims are pure myth… frauds are proven… incompetence is proven… logical fallacies are documented and studied since the greek…

      this groupthink is desperate. only ignorance allow not to see it.

      • Broncobet

        See, AlainCo? Now you can be labeled a skeptic because you state that the ECat will take time even if TIP and pilot plant work well. I could take the other side of that argument and say IF the ECAT and HotCat work at least as well as Rossi et al have been promising, with very low costs, and being very safe and reliable that it would spread like wildfire.In reality I think it will take a while and will not be perfect in every sense that people claim. I would like to hear your best guess as to how it works.

        • I have multiple reason to be prudent.
          The first is that it is since 1992 that we have all required evidence to admit LENR is real, maybe 1996 fir the most retarded.
          So I know that no evidence can convince, except evidence that mom an pop, and their daughter of 5 can understand.
          It is corrected by the fact that I know big corp executive that like Elforsk just accept LENr as a possibility, or even as a fact whose date is still unknown.

          The second is that I know that technology takes time to make industrial, especially without a theory.
          Especially if all scientists but few refuse even to look at it , as it is currently the case.

          the third is that even for the business who know that LENr is a fact, and will disrupt the market, it is very hard to take the decision to cut one ofe their harm to flee from a dead comfortable market and flee to the future, alone without partners… at best they would try to capture a monopoly and keep the market as it is today, preventing most of the benefits for the population…
          as if sail boat companies were just adding steam engine on their best clipper just for maneuvering in the port.

          or course I am not skeptic, LENR is real (except for a blackswan probability that is common to any thing you are sure, like sun), and I know that E-cat have a COP>>2 with a tiny risk.

          even for LENr engineering, LENR theory I am optimistic that we will make breakthrough soon, in the next 5 years, provided all is not blocked by fear (not even by skeptics who are just tinfoil hat today).

          the real problem is fear by corps, hubris by startup, leading to desperate tentative to build monopolies that will delay the revolution… fear of improductive battles, of patent wars, research covering, like what happened at the beginning of Cold fusion fiasco (I am reading “fire from ice” by Mallove, good history. Beaudette show it too more kindly).

          I have understood that the innovators, the entrepreneurs, the scientists, the investors, the garage inventors, the tycoons, should work together in an open way, taking advantage of their openness advantage to go faster, to occupy the wild wild west more quickly than the elephants and the chacals.

          Think of the Ice age cartoon…
          I have the mammoth, many of the rodents, and for the tiger I have no name… that is an ecosystem if they have incentive to work together, share, and stay in.

          • Broncobet

            AlainCo,I really get enjoyment out of your posts especially this one. I followed this tech at different times over the years and found it just like a soap opera you could leave for a few years and come back and find you haven’t missed anything.As interesting as tech is it is always people who fascinate us. Your admission that you’ve been following this story since 1992 and (because of the lack of promises being kept) has made you “prudent”. What a faithful supporter you’ve been over the years, it’s possible that we shall all see results soon that show your loyalty wasn’t misplaced. What a joyous day that would be, kind of like entering heaven after waiting at the gates for 22 years.

  • Broncobet

    Experiment trumps theory but what is the theory behind the ecat, assuming it works?

    • you raise current problem in western mindset, western academic.

      things are only accepted if they have a theory.
      worst than that, when theory and facts dissent, the facts have to be ignored.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Theories are not facts they are models to provide insight, easily made obsolete, and have zero requirement for describing any form of truth.
        A theory only needs to work.
        A device only needs to work.

        The are of equal validity, which would you choose if you could only have one?

  • Broncobet

    Experiment trumps theory but what is the theory behind the ecat, assuming it works?

    • you raise current problem in western mindset, western academic.

      things are only accepted if they have a theory.
      worst than that, when theory and facts dissent, the facts have to be ignored.

      • Ophelia Rump

        Theories are not facts they are models to provide insight, easily made obsolete, and have zero requirement for describing any form of truth.
        A theory only needs to work.
        A device only needs to work.

        The are of equal validity, but only until the theory is rejected.
        Which would you choose if you could only have one?

        I want the device.

        • Broncobet

          It’s a well known axiom that experiment trumps theory.

      • bachcole

        And then there is mind-set that nothing is true unless it has been proven. This makes it impossible to get funding. Why would an administrator provide money for something that is not true. Since the therapeutic value of turmeric has not been prove to be true (it has), it is therefore false and useless.

        • Broncobet

          Right.It has to be in the middle. The Goldilocks zone. If it’s something everyone knows (water flows downhill) you won’t be funded, if it’s something preposterous, you still get nada, something like LENR should and does get funding(yes we all want more research$) because it’s not impossible and it’s not functioning as a major supplier of energy(yet, hopefully).

      • Broncobet

        No, I said experiment trumps.Pilot and commercial each are victorious over experiment. You are just the person for this question. What is your personal opinion of the theory that best explains the E-Cat (not the Hot Cat). It’s fine if we don’t know, there are lots of things like that. I want to know in your personal opinion your best guesses what explains what happens in the shipping container. Multiple guesses are encouraged.

      • Broncobet

        I very much like your description of “Groupthink” but I turn it around and apply it to those in blogs that are “true believers” and have religious faith that this tech works and the only reason we aren’t reaping the benefits is because of shadow influence of society.We all agree on one thing; if this tech is working, word will get out and the futures market for gas,oil,coal, and gasoline will have a major correction. As IH is closer than any one and has cash they will be the first. You can follow futures on your computer and it will signal when Ecats are getting near.

    • bachcole

      I don’t know. I doubt that anyone does. Even if someone does “know”, such as Rossi, we don’t know that he knows, so we say that no one knows. When there is a theory that is reproducible over and over, then we have a theory that everyone knows is “true”. Right now we just have a phenomena that we, who are in on the know, know is true.

      • Broncobet

        Yeah. I want your best guesses too bachcole.

  • Barry8

    Heh heh

  • Mats

    No, but I have 2 copys of his book, both signed by him.

  • Ophelia Rump

    You have a point, it could become a War Technology or some such political nonsense. I assure you the adoption of that posture would become global. Where once there was a nuclear arms race, there would be a LENR deployment race. Distribution might become a matter of national security.
    This would be a global crime against humanity in the disguise of self interest.

    I hope the China deal has already precluded the successful deployment of that tactic.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I wonder if they have found a way to increase the size of the reaction site by making the industrial Tiger unit a double walled tube shape, with coolant flowing through the tube and outside it.

    The dimensions seem to hint at this.
    “A cylinder with a diameter of 1.2 m and a lencth od 0.4 m.”

    I did not expect them to play with geometries for the reaction site on the first release. These dimensions suggest a reaction site at least three feet long, and considerably larger in diameter than would make sense from a solid core.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I wonder if they have found a way to increase the size of the reaction site by making the industrial Tiger unit a double walled tube shape, with coolant flowing through the tube and outside it.

    The dimensions seem to hint at this.
    “A cylinder with a diameter of 1.2 m and a lencth od 0.4 m.”

    I did not expect them to play with geometries for the reaction site on the first release. These dimensions suggest a reaction site at least three feet long, and considerably larger in diameter than would make sense from a solid core.

    A dozen big cats could easily do the job.

  • SiriusMan

    Just in: The Google barge in Maine is on the move:

    https://bangordailynews.com/2014/07/31/business/mysteries-continue-to-surround-google-barge-as-it-prepares-to-leave-maine/

    ..it is made from shipping containers and its intended purpose has been kept top secret for over 6 months.

    • GreenWin

      I have it on imagined authority the barge is filled with Maine lobstahs. These lobstahs are being towed down through the Cape Cod Canal to Boston harbor. Next week at Building 5 of the Charleston Navy Yard, a celebratory clam bake will take place aboard the USS Constitution – America’s oldest commissioned naval ship (1795.)

      The celebration is to commemorate the re-emergence of the Constitution in governance of the American people. Author Stephen King will Emcee. Entertainment provided by Quincy Adams Trio, Jay Zee’s Patriots, and Lady GaGoogle. Google Glasses will be gifted to all celebrants in recognition of this new vision. Massachusetts EPA confirms that no lobstahs will be harmed during the festivities.

  • SiriusMan

    Just in: The Google barge in Maine is on the move:

    https://bangordailynews.com/2014/07/31/business/mysteries-continue-to-surround-google-barge-as-it-prepares-to-leave-maine/

    ..it is made from shipping containers and its intended purpose has been kept top secret for over 6 months.

    • GreenWin

      I have it on imagined authority the barge is filled with Maine lobstahs. These lobstahs are being towed down through the Cape Cod Canal to Boston harbor. Next week at Building 5 of the Charleston Navy Yard, a celebratory clam bake will take place aboard the USS Constitution – America’s oldest commissioned naval ship (1795.)

      The celebration is to commemorate the re-emergence of the Constitution in governance of the American people. Author Stephen King will Emcee. Entertainment provided by Quincy Adams Trio, Jay Zee’s Patriots, and Lady GaGoogle. Google Glasses will be gifted to all celebrants in recognition of this new vision. Massachusetts EPA confirms that no lobstahs will be harmed during the festivities.

    • bachcole

      If it is headed for Norfolk, Virginia, Wilmington, North Carolina or any other nearby port, then I will get excited. Otherwise, not so much.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I did not mean the active form but the cold form of war. Were certain nations to adopt the technology while excluding others, the public would find the technology out of their reach. Such a thing would polarize.

    LENR as weapon, not for 20 years, war over LENR, hopefully not.

  • Broncobet

    Right.It has to be in the middle. The Goldilocks zone. If it’s something everyone knows (water flows downhill) you won’t be funded, if it’s something preposterous, you still get nada, something like LENR should and does get funding(yes we all want more research$) because it’s not impossible and it’s not functioning as a major supplier of energy(yet, hopefully).

  • Broncobet

    Yeah. I want your best guesses too bachcole.

  • I have multiple reason to be prudent.
    The first is that it is since 1992 that we have all required evidence to admit LENR is real, maybe 1996 fir the most retarded.
    So I know that no evidence can convince, except evidence that mom an pop, and their daughter of 5 can understand.
    It is corrected by the fact that I know big corp executive that like Elforsk just accept LENr as a possibility, or even as a fact whose date is still unknown.

    The second is that I know that technology takes time to make industrial, especially without a theory.
    Especially if all scientists but few refuse even to look at it , as it is currently the case.

    the third is that even for the business who know that LENr is a fact, and will disrupt the market, it is very hard to take the decision to cut one ofe their harm to flee from a dead comfortable market and flee to the future, alone without partners… at best they would try to capture a monopoly and keep the market as it is today, preventing most of the benefits for the population…
    as if sail boat companies were just adding steam engine on their best clipper just for maneuvering in the port.

    or course I am not skeptic, LENR is real (except for a blackswan probability that is common to any thing you are sure, like sun), and I know that E-cat have a COP>>2 with a tiny risk.

    even for LENr engineering, LENR theory I am optimistic that we will make breakthrough soon, in the next 5 years, provided all is not blocked by fear (not even by skeptics who are just tinfoil hat today).

    the real problem is fear by corps, hubris by startup, leading to desperate tentative to build monopolies that will delay the revolution… fear of improductive battles, of patent wars, research covering, like what happened at the beginning of Cold fusion fiasco (I am reading “fire from ice” by Mallove, good history. Beaudette show it too more kindly).

    I have understood that the innovators, the entrepreneurs, the scientists, the investors, the garage inventors, the tycoons, should work together in an open way, taking advantage of their openness advantage to go faster, to occupy the wild wild west more quickly than the elephants and the chacals.

    Think of the Ice age cartoon…
    I have the mammoth, many of the rodents, and for the tiger I have no name… that is an ecosystem if they have incentive to work together, share, and stay in.