Rossi: Safety Certification Obtained for Low and High Temperature E-Cats

Today Andrea Rossi announced on the Journal of Nuclear Physics what would appear to be an important development in the commercialization of the E-Cat. In a comment about the use of multiple reactors inside each E-Cat plant, Rossi made this comment:

Last, but not least: our modules of E-cats and Hot-cats have been certified.

I followed up with a question about what this certification meant for Industrial Heat. Rossi responded:

Frank Acland:
We obtained a Safety certification. Is necessary for the development of industrial plants made by Hot Cats.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

This certification for the Hot Cats (high temperature E-Cat reactors) may have been a recent development, because until now Rossi has said only that the low temperature plants had received safety certification. We don’t know much about who did the certification, and I don’t expect that we will get much information about it. My understanding is that certification process is normally covered by confidentiality agreements. In 2012 Andrea Rossi released a SGS safety certificate only with special permission from SGS because he was being accused of lying about certification.

I would expect that Industrial Heat will have been working with American certifying agencies since all the R&D is now taking place in the United States now. US safety certification is apparently recognized widely around the world, which should be very useful for Industrial Heat as they move towards worldwide commercialization.

This sounds like good news to me. The Hot Cat is especially important for Industrial Heat if they are working towards generation of electricity, and safety certification for industrial plants sounds like a critical achievement which should allow IH to develop the E-Cat commercially.

  • Kevin O

    Rossi has only maybe 3 other things he can announce until he runs out of filler material. The wait for the TIP report is the elephant in the living room.

  • Kevin O

    Rossi has only maybe 3 other things he can announce until he runs out of filler material. The wait for the TIP report is the elephant in the living room.

    • MMK

      A whale in the living room now!

    • Broncobet

      I would add a zero, so only 30 more things.

  • hempenearth

    Great news on the Hot Cat certification. To manage the media I guess they should open the 1MW plant for public viewing a month or so after the Hot Cat report comes out. Otherwise they risk having a confused message go out – if they open the 1MW plant for public viewing and within a day or two the Hot Cat report is released, average Joe might get a tad confused.
    On the other hand who knows how long they will be waiting for the Hot Cat report?

    • A good point, although the distinction would probably pass over the heads of the majority of people. I suspect that IH will probably maintain their current plodding methodical pattern of introduction and seek to establish the ‘warm cat’ or mouse/cat system in the market, before introducing the ‘new improved’ (and potentially much more disruptive) hot cat models. Alternatively they could announce a range of applications that would include hot cat technology, but with only the 1MW warm cat available initially. For this reason there may be a rather longer gap than you suggest between introductions – perhaps a year or more.

      Either way I’m relieved to hear that the hot cat is being progressed, which in turn may imply that any potential engineering problems are on their way to being overcome.

      • georgehants

        Morning Peter, it would seem logical that IH know exactly what the cats can and cannot do and the report is simply a necessary cosmetic.
        They I think are working full time ready for the planned strategy after the report is published.
        The report hopefully, will give them the ammunition to brush aside all dissenters.
        I think we can look forward to a very fast movement when that damned report is released.
        Hopefully these pages will be filled everyday with information from our Mr. Rossi on the position.
        Vive la Cold Fusion.

        • Morning George. Yes I agree. I think many commenters may be putting too much weight on a document that will provide more proof for the already convinced, and a punchbag for the shills, and which will be roundly ignored by most of the MSM. I hope that an announcement about a ‘visitable’ pilot installation comes before I run out of fingernails.

          • georgehants

            Peter, soon I think we will have to much information from many sources.
            Then we will have a really good excuse for a few more bottles of red.
            I think when the “positive” report is released you should be brave and sail your narrow-boat round the coast to Penzance harbour and we can sample the local cuisine etc. for a couple of days.
            GreenWin of course being invited.

          • George, narrowboats are about as seaworthy as a half filled skip (which they resemble in many ways). Waves more than a few inches in height would be a serious threat, and anything more than a slight side wind makes them virtually unsteerable. I think I’ll stick to our trusty diesel estate for touring Cornwall!

          • GreenWin

            Peter, while narrow boat transport appears impractical, I refer you to a… pedestrian alternative – which may just be appropriate to this mission: USPTO # US3783532 A from 1973. A year when no dream was impossible.
            http://www.google.com/patents/US3783532

          • Perfect for those occasions when the pub is on the opposite side of the canal. Could get messy ‘walking’ back though…

          • GreenWin

            Yes. Good reason to book the more practical water taxi on return. Or, demand a room at the inn.

          • georgehants

            Peter, I did say you would have to be brave, Ha.

          • GreenWin

            George, not that I ever doubted the imagination of Gilbert and Sullivan – I had not considered the famed “pirates” hailed from a “real” harbour called Penzance. From this photo, it appears snug and safe and a perfect place for a triumphant celebration of good news and conscience. http://bit.ly/VpA8Pm

          • georgehants

            Ha and good for old people to retire, I hope.

        • Ivone

          Yes, and the abundant fresh water, bath tubs, and flush toilets that the Africans and Indians so desperately need. With these things, Ebola wouldn’t be an issue.

          • georgehants

            Ivone, coincidentally my wife is giving a talk at our local Rotary Club today, showing the Water Filters that they help to fund being put into action for the villagers in Ghana.
            What is needed as you say is a very cheap source of power to run both filters and raise water from bore holes.
            Maybe Mr. Rossi has not forgotten this and is doing everything he can to find the answer.
            Best

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

    Big step, fundamental to enter the market. Bigger step than plant viewing, because it implies that there is nothing wrong with the process, as certified. If I were a big guy, with certification, I’d buy.

  • jousterusa

    I wonder who the certification agency is? I hope it’s a household name like Underwriter’s Laboratory!

  • jousterusa

    I wonder who the certification agency is? I hope it’s a household name like Underwriter’s Laboratory!

  • Paul

    SGS and UL are both big in their field. Obviously, certification refers to the single prototype tested, so every different prototype needs its own certification, and mass production products need a different type of certification, but the new cerifications will be very easy to obatain (only a matter of money, because they have a cost) at this point.

  • Gerard McEk

    I wonder how they managed to get that certificate. As we all know E-cats are prone to runaway. That requires at least two active independent measures or to make it inherently safe. The normal control (on-off heat input) may be unusable as it can runaway when the heat is switched off. To make it inherently safe may be the easiest: keep it small enough and well insulated, such that in case of runaway the damage is limited to inside the confinement.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I did not know. Do you have some current source material on those design flaws?
      I have not heard anything about there being any remaining stability issues. I thought they were all fixed long ago.

      • Gerard McEk

        As you know, Ophelia and Stephen, at the second test series the first hot cat melted for the eyes of the professors, impressive but unfortunate because they could not do the wanted tests. Rossi decided to run the next hot cat at much lower temperatures (if I remember well 600 C instead of 1100 C). This convinced me that the E-Cat is not always stable and it may well depend on charges of nickel material and perhaps of the catalyzer, which he may not have fully in hand. At the same time the process stability seems temperature dependent. That means that if you come above a certain trip point, runaway cannot be avoided, perhaps unless you cool it active (like put a firehose on it). I guess that is also the reason why E-cats cannot be build much larger because local hot-spots may occur which cannot be controlled. Having said thisI realize that IH/Rossi are two years further in the development now and may have found solutions for this or some work arounds as I suggested above.

        • Ophelia Rump

          You provide such vivid descriptions, so detailed almost as if you were there. But not a single source is referenced.
          Please share some documented facts so we can tell where reality ends and delusion takes over.

          • bachcole

            I see nothing wrong or exaggerated by what Gerald McEk said. It all seems like common (commonly known here) knowledge to me. Perhaps you should read read it.

          • Ophelia Rump

            So are you saying that either you or he can refer to current documentation of the Rossi Catalyzers having serious current control and stability issues which would disqualify a safety certificate for operation?

          • bachcole

            No it was not. He said that they probably have improved in the 2 years that control was obviously a problem (thus the melt down. You are attacking him as though he was putting Rossi and the E-Cat down, and he did not do that. You should read his post again, and then delete all of your responses.

          • Ophelia Rump

            No, I attacked no one, I asked for references to statements which indicated the catalyzer was unfit for certification, and I asked for restraint from attacking him. Then I dismissed his statements as garbage when he failed to produce sources. Perhaps he has edited his statements or you have failed to read them. I will not dig through his debris again to make the determination.

          • Gerard McEk

            Sorry to respond a bit later. As you can see below also Bachcole knows about this and I am sure many others. I did try to find it in the book of Lewan, but that does not include these details ,I think. I am a technical guy and do not have an archive to dig out the things I remember I have read and discussed in the past. The things I said, I thought are all well known by those following the E-Cat story from 2011 onward. Runaway can be controlled and are prone to many processes, especially nuclear facilities. From the resent answers of AR, were he says that the Hot-cat is only certified for properly maintained industrial environment, means that the Hot-cat has probably independent safety measures, which need regular check and that even when it goes wrong, personal damage will be unlikely. Otherwise a certificate would have not been given. It does make a Hot-cat not suitable for home-usage yet. I think, and I believe AR said that also in the past, when sufficient experience is collected in the industrial environment and and no major difficulties happened, the Hot-cat can also be certified for home use (e.g. heating the house).

          • georgehants

            An unknown patent worker with a minor degree publishes in one year five major papers.
            Peer review ha, if these papers where handled by the incompetent science of today we would still be waiting for them to be published.
            ———
            In 1905 Albert Einstein published four important papers, plus his dissertation, and set the stage for all of modern physics.
            The. Work. of. Albert. Einstein. 1905 1907 His famous “miracle year”; publishes scientific papers in prestigious German journal.
            http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/SciRefGuides/einstein.html

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Assuming that electricity is required to control the reaction, for example to heat the reactor up to slow down the reaction, a power failure would be a problem. I have no idea if there is a passive way to control the ecat, but in a controlled industrial environment that should not be a problem. In such an environment there should be many fail-safes such as backup generators and battery-powered emergency power. As I understand it, the certification is for industrial use only. Things are much different for home appliances where safety requirements are totally different but that is not what this certification is for.

      • GreenWin

        Dan, can you provide us with the certification of safe disposal of the radioactive waste?? Public safety certification does not end at a reactor site. It ends when all hazardous waste and byproducts are removed and isolated from endangering human populations. http://www.santafenewmexican.com/news/local_news/feds-launch-safety-inquiry-following-wipp-leak/article_a55011fb-86b0-5d3f-b92a-0955fa97b13a.html

        The one and ONLY U.S. certified nuclear waste storage facility, WIPP in Carlsbad, NM has suffered catastrophic failure – making the entire chain of nuclear safety “certification” laughable.

        Let’s ask ourselves, what is safer? Outdated nuke power plants producing radioactive waste with a half life of 130,000 years — or a clean, green abundant source with absolutely NO radioactive waste or toxic emissions?

        • georgehants

          – Scientists who play by someone else’s rules don’t have much chance of making discoveries.
          Jack Horner
          – The very nature of science is discoveries, and the best of those discoveries are the ones you don’t expect.
          Neil deGrasse Tyson
          – Progress depends on our brain. The most important part of our brain, that which
          is neocortical, must be used to help others and not just to make
          discoveries.
          Rita Levi-Montalcini
          – I am one of those who think like Nobel, that humanity will draw more good than evil from new discoveries.
          Marie Curie-
          – For more than 200 years, materialists have promised that science will
          eventually explain everything in terms of physics and chemistry.
          Believers are sustained by the faith that scientific discoveries will
          justify their beliefs.
          Rupert Sheldrake

          • Iggy Dalrymple

            “Scientists who sit in corner…. don’t have much chance of making discoveries.”
            – “Big” Jack Horner

          • georgehants

            Ha, good one Iggy.

      • Fortyniner

        Almost certainly the reaction could be poisoned by many things, probably including oxygen which would oxidise H2 and hot metals. A simple fusible plug could provide 100% certain and near-instant termination of a runaway reactor.

    • US_Citizen71

      Fission reactors also tend to be prone to runaway. The latest designs of pressurized water reactors are designed to require the water pressure be maintained for the reaction to continue. So if you get a leak the reaction stops. IH/Rossi may well have also found an easy mechanism to prevent runaway such as a plug that melts at a given temperature and vents the hydrogen and pressure in the event of overheating.

  • Gerard McEk

    I wonder how they managed to get that certificate. As we all know E-cats are prone to runaway. That requires at least two active independent measures or to make it inherently safe. The normal control (on-off heat input) may be unusable as it can runaway when the heat is switched off. To make it inherently safe may be the easiest: keep it small enough and well insulated, such that in case of runaway the damage is limited to inside the confinement.

    • Stephen Haigh

      Unless you’re actively involved in the R&D , i don’t know how you can say it is “prone” to runaway? I would suggest that if it lasted a 6 month test without doing so, it is not.

      • Ophelia Rump

        He deserves the chance to produce references before we jump on him like a pack of wolves. Patience, stay with the pack. In these slow news times you need to savor the occasional taste of blood.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I did not know. Do you have some current source material on those design flaws?
      I have not heard anything about there being any remaining stability issues. I thought they were all fixed long ago.

      These are important allegations, we should go over these meticulously.

      It does not sound too difficult to me to make a control system which shuts down the process before powering itself off. Every computer does that. You are simply not aware of it because the computer can do all of the necessary housekeeping by processing millions of instructions per second. Computers are so fast they process emergency shutdown routines after they detect a power failure and before they completely lose power, doing things like parking the heads of the hard drive, or creating dumps of the memory data, and values of the current registers for crash debug later.

      With a process like the Rossi Effect, the OS could take a noticeable period before it honors the request from the off switch and powers itself down, after doing a controlled shutdown of the catalyzer. Like your computer patching itself before it shuts down.

      • Gerard McEk

        As you know, Ophelia and Stephen, at the second test series the first hot cat melted for the eyes of the professors, impressive but unfortunate because they could not do the wanted tests. Rossi decided to run the next hot cat at much lower temperatures (if I remember well 600 C instead of 1100 C). This convinced me that the E-Cat is not always stable and it may well depend on charges of nickel material and perhaps of the catalyzer, which he may not have fully in hand. At the same time the process stability seems temperature dependent. That means that if you come above a certain trip point, runaway cannot be avoided, perhaps unless you cool it active (like put a firehose on it). I guess that is also the reason why E-cats cannot be build much larger because local hot-spots may occur which cannot be controlled. Having said thisI realize that IH/Rossi are two years further in the development now and may have found solutions for this or some work arounds as I suggested above.

        • Ophelia Rump

          You provide such vivid descriptions, so detailed almost as if you were there. But not a single source is referenced.
          Please share some documented facts so we can tell where reality ends and delusion takes over.

          Please make the references current, because anything prior to the end if the last test and the current one is simply irrelevant, much like you are becoming if you continue this approach, unworthy of consideration.

          • bachcole

            I see nothing wrong or exaggerated by what Gerald McEk said. It all seems like common (commonly known here) knowledge to me. Perhaps you should read read it.

          • Ophelia Rump

            So are you saying that either you or he can refer to current documentation of the Rossi Catalyzers having serious current control and stability issues which would disqualify a safety certificate for operation?

            Because that was Gerald McEk’s argument.

          • bachcole

            No it was not. He said that they probably have improved in the 2 years that control was obviously a problem (thus the melt down. You are attacking him as though he was putting Rossi and the E-Cat down, and he did not do that. You should read his post again, and then delete all of your responses.

          • Ophelia Rump

            No, I attacked no one, I asked for references to statements which indicated the catalyzer was unfit for certification, and I asked for restraint from attacking him. Then I dismissed his statements as garbage when he failed to produce sources. Perhaps he has edited his statements or you have failed to read them. I will not dig through his debris again to make the determination.

          • Gerard McEk

            Sorry to respond a bit later. As you can see below also Bachcole knows about this and I am sure many others. I did try to find it in the book of Lewan, but that does not include these details ,I think. I am a technical guy and do not have an archive to dig out the things I remember I have read and discussed in the past. The things I said, I thought are all well known by those following the E-Cat story from 2011 onward. Runaway can be controlled and are prone to many processes, especially nuclear facilities. From the resent answers of AR, were he says that the Hot-cat is only certified for properly maintained industrial environment, means that the Hot-cat has probably independent safety measures, which need regular check and that even when it goes wrong, personal damage will be unlikely. Otherwise a certificate would have not been given. It does make a Hot-cat not suitable for home-usage yet. I think, and I believe AR said that also in the past, when sufficient experience is collected in the industrial environment and and no major difficulties happened, the Hot-cat can also be certified for home use (e.g. heating the house).

          • bachcole

            That is precisely my understanding.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Assuming that electricity is required to control the reaction, for example to heat the reactor up to slow down the reaction, a power failure would be a problem. I have no idea if there is a passive way to control the ecat, but in a controlled industrial environment that should not be a problem. In such an environment there should be many fail-safes such as backup generators and battery-powered emergency power. As I understand it, the certification is for industrial use only. Things are much different for home appliances where safety requirements are totally different but that is not what this certification is for.

      • Almost certainly the reaction could be poisoned by many things, probably including oxygen which would oxidise H2 and hot metals. A simple fusible plug could provide 100% certain and near-instant termination of a runaway reactor.

    • US_Citizen71

      Fission reactors also tend to be prone to runaway. The latest designs of pressurized water reactors are designed to require the water pressure be maintained for the reaction to continue. So if you get a leak the reaction stops. IH/Rossi may well have also found an easy mechanism to prevent runaway such as a plug that melts at a given temperature and vents the hydrogen and pressure in the event of overheating.

  • georgehants

    A simple little piece explaining that there is something beyond a steam engine.
    Many scientists will find this surprising.
    Here lies the future of not only Cold Fusion but all of science, most importantly the connections between consciousness and material.
    ——–
    Phys Org.
    Quantum information meets condensed matter:
    But if technologies are developed that rely on quantum properties, do you think
    that will change—that we will start to internalize a quantum view of
    things?
    Eventually, maybe. When we deal with the quantum world frequently
    enough and have reached a better consensus on how to interpret it, it
    may be possible to develop a quantum intuition of the world. That would
    be an amazing state of mind to have, because with it we could not only
    push science forward but also have a totally new perspective on the
    universe and the meaning of life!
    Read more at: http://phys.org/news/2014-08-quantum-condensed-mind-xie-chen.html#jCp

    • GreenWin

      Should this perspective be adopted by mainstream, it will be incontrovertible evidence of porcine flight.

    • bkrharold

      I agree, our understanding of physics at the nano scale is incomplete. The difficulty that Einstein had of reconciling classical physics with quantum mechanics was a clue that our understanding was incomplete. The problem is that, the human mind can only visualize things with which it is familiar. Undergraduate chemist students familiar with the stick and ball models to represent molecules. They are a useful model for interpreting chemical reactions. At smaller scales, we really have no clue as to what is really happening, and certainly nothing with which we can compare in our familiar macro world. How can we visualize a probability cloud, which mathematically describes the electron orbitals around the atom? The simple Hydrogen atom, contains many mysteries, yet to be explained. Our simplistic models do not explain how It can react with other atoms in as yet inexplicable ways. There will be no further progress, until hidebound scientists stop insisting they know everything, and look at experimental evidence, rather than ignoring it in the hope it will go away.
      This is probably the main reason why LENR has not been accepted by main stream Physics, despite compelling evidence that it exists. It is a lack of imagination, and a reluctance to do the hard work of understanding LENR.

  • Ophelia Rump

    He deserves the chance to produce references before we jump on him like a pack of wolves. Patience, stay with the pack.

  • GordonDocherty

    A sensible decision – looking at LENR ingredients so far:

    1. A metal-hydride lattice, supersaturated with Hydrogen ions. The hydrogen ions are occupying Brillouin Zones, either those in the volumes between the atoms in the lattice, where the intersecting fields from each atom are at their weakest, or just above the lattice, occupying half-defined virtual Brillouin zones. Most metal hydrides bind with hydrogen very strongly. As a result high temperatures around 120 °C (248 °F) – 200 °C (392 °F) are required to release their hydrogen content. This figure is in-line with initial heating of LENR systems to 186C + to initiate the reaction sequence (releasing protium)… so long as the crystal lattice is first saturated.

    2. An initiator element covering (part of) the surface of the metal-hydride lattice – some hypothesize that this initiator element is an oxide that is involved in spillover, a chemical process. The heat energy generated by such spillover is orders of magnitude lower than that witnessed in LENR systems, so this process is unlikely to be the primary source of heat seen in LENR systems, although it may contribute in a small way, and could certainly occur where a metal hydride was partially coated with a suitable oxide and exposed to a water isotope fuel and heat (the NI-H powder systems run dry (that is, no water): Palladium electrode systems, on the other hand – and certainly the early ones, have done so).

    3. Faults in the crystal structure of Casimir dimensions – perfect crystals won’t do – so, these faults clearly play a part. The crystal is also charged, giving rise to Casimir cavities from these faults. Now, Casimir cavities, by virtue of their constricted dimensions, affect “space energy” in some way – this is why two, parallel charged metal plates (same charge), when placed close enough together and released collapse together (even in a vacuum) when they should fly apart. After some thought, the general consensus is that there is a reduction in the number of virtual photons coming into existence and disappearing again back into the “ether”, a major indicator that the vacuum of space is NOT at all totally void of anything. Now, either the reduction in photons is due to a restriction in the frequencies that those photons can possess OR Casimir cavities affects time within the cavity such that anyone outside the cavity sees time within the cavity speed up, while anyone inside the cavity still thinks time is “ticking along normally”, with the size of the cavity remaining the same after a certain point, while time outside the cavity appears to slow down. This is like the example of two astronauts, the first of whom stays on Earth and the second of whom travels toward a black hole. As the second astronaut approaches the black hole, the first astronaut sees time for the second astronaut slowing down, while for the second astronaut, time for the first astronaut appears to speed up, yet to each their own time appears to “tick” at the same rate.

    4. Application of resonance-inducing phononic (in direction of wave, as opposed to photonic, perpendicular to wave) waves – THz range waves used. With the correct frequency applied, and resonance is reached, impedance (energy transfer loss) reduces to zero. So, energy can move from one body across to another without loss. At the same time, in diatomic crystals, these lattice vibrations can give rise to gap DBs. To quote “The large mass difference between H or D and the metal atoms provides a gap in phonon spectrum, in which DBs can be excited in the H/D sub-lattice resulting in extreme dynamic closing of adjacent H/D atoms required for the tunneling through nuclear Coulomb barrier. DBs have been shown to arise either via thermal activation at elevated temperatures or via knocking atoms out of equilibrium positions under non-equilibrium gas loading conditions, employed under radiolysis or plasma deposition methods”

    5. Application of magnonic (spin) waves, to induce via precession a uniform spin in localized atomic clusters – magnons behave as weakly interacting quasi-particles conforming to Bose–Einstein statistics. Magnons are adversely affected by heat, and tend to happen in localized areas only, likely in the crystal faults. It is thought that the macro-scale magnetic moments so established are one source of energy in “LENR”.

    6. While the second law of thermodynamics predicts that the entropy of an isolated system should tend to increase until it reaches equilibrium, statistical mechanics sees the second law as only a statistical probability, suggesting that there should always be some non-zero probability that the entropy of an isolated system might spontaneously decrease; the fluctuation theorem precisely quantifies this probability – and this is where we get to the heart of the matter. Fusion is, in part, a game of probabilities. Now, in a free-moving, unconstrained state, the only way to increase the probability of fusion (it does happen in a totally “cold” environment, although the probability is VERY small) is to increase the temperature and density of the material to fuse, as well as constrain movement.

    Hence, right enough, for “hot” fusion such as occurs in outer space, hot, dense bodies with strong magnetic fields, such as stars are the normal environment in which fusion is observed (in fact, there is increasing evidence that magnetic pinch points are essential to fusion, as witnessed by recent strides forward in Hot fusion by systems such as LPP’s dense plasma fusion).

    For LENR / CF, on the other hand, a different approach to affecting probabilities is being taken. Use a metal lattice to constrain nucleii movement, phononic resonance / magnonic spin waves to reduce impedance to zero, making a system appear as a “transparent”, single macro entity to energy travelling through it, and density through saturation in the lattice.

    7. with 1 through 6, it is now thought that one or more of the following occurs:

    a. formation of hydrotons – metallic hydrogen chains – within the crystal faults, with atoms in the chain vibrating and spinning in unison
    b. formation of slow moving neutrons via shielded Hydrogen – Electron combinations, in which the Hydrogen – Electron combination takes on energy delivered via loss-less transfer until they form neutrons
    c. increased incidence of Hydrogen nucleii collisions – constrained within Brillouin zones, as heat (and hence velocity) increases, Hydrogen nucleii within the supersaturated metal lattice increasingly tunnel through between zones and, ultimately, cross over their Coulomb barriers as some of these nucleii will be moving and spinning in-synch, so that energy (and mass) transfer between them becomes easier (think stock cars in a U-shaped race track). Further, due to resonance and geometry constraint, the energy released from such fusions (when the fusion is exothermic) moves easily away from the reaction site, slowly being quantized as it moves further and further away from the initial site, and likely reabsorbed by new reactions.
    d. further, within Casimir geometries, time is accelerated, so that the 1 in a trillion chance of random fusion starts to increase dramatically, as seen from the perspective of an observer outside the cavity
    e. finally, there is the possibility that, as hydrogen ions and electrons move into the Casimir regions, what are effectively formed are hydrogen atoms with their bound electrons below the “normal” ground state (Hydrino), so releasing energy in the process – after all, what is the normal ground state in an environment where the space energy density is below that of “the outside world”

    So, LENR can be described as a VERSATILE approach:

    Virtual-particle Energy-transfer Resonance within a Supersaturated-metal-hydride forming an Active Tesseractic Ionic Lattice Environment

    LENR, in other words, is NOT MAGIC or FRAUD, but an active area of research combining multiple (known) effects to increase the probability of fusion occurring without just using brute force.

    Finally, and a sobering thought. Unified resonance / spin is difficult to achieve, and currently occurs only in isolated sites at isolated times, making LENR system ideal energy generators. Should a way be found to achieve unified resonance / spin at a truly macro scale for a long period of time (and especially spin) with fusion / magnetic vortex energy release occurring across the piece, then what you will have built is a hyper-powerful … fusion bomb. Thankfully, LENR research has not yet turned up a way to achieve such a stable resonant / spin environment, and the probability of achieving such as state accidentally is currently about the same as achieving it at random for any other cold body.

    So, in summary, a thermostellar device is not likely any time soon. With this in mind, those issuing a safety certificate should rest easy in their beds. After all, gas appliances are issued with safety certificates without much fuss. Yet I’m sure most of us could come up with a way to invalidate a safety certificate for a gas appliance if we put our mind to it…

    • GreenWin

      A fascinating summation Gordon. Certainly opens the door for a multitude of research (aka “jobs”) for young and less young scientists AND Edisonians. With respect to the catalyst – great strides in thin film manufacturing, for semiconductors makes surface geometry design at the nanometer scale practical.

      Your acronym is a stunning achievement in word smithing – though you may have left out NASA’s favorite flavor “plasmon polaritons.” As all these reactions appear to release energy incrementally across time curves and spectra (even when emerging from relativistic Casimir manifold) – the probability of massive spontaneity (explosion) is very low.

      VERSATILITY is a highly desirable goal in developing new energy. Nice to imagine we’re well on the way.

      • clovis ray

        Hi guys, GW , i can’t see, anything more versatile, than this cat family, and i think versatility, is the reason the home unit was abandoned for the industrial setting, with operators, for now but i believe the home units will come later, but it would be to disruptive here at first, we must keep in mind that this is a new energy, and little is known about it.

    • clovis ray

      As long as it is developed here in the states, it will be as safe as a baby in mothers arms.

  • bachcole

    I think that this is very good news. Of course, it depends upon Rossi’s words; it is not like we have a certificate in front of us. But I trust Rossi on this 100%.

  • bachcole

    I think that this is very good news. Of course, it depends upon Rossi’s words; it is not like we have a certificate in front of us. But I trust Rossi on this 100%.

  • @Frank: Can you ask if Rossi could publish the certificate, as he did it with the last “installation certification” from SGS?

    • ecatworld

      Hi Barty — thanks for the suggestion, but I am not inclined to make that request.

      As I mentioned above, the publication of the last certificate was done under unusual circumstances with special permission from SGS as Rossi was being accused by his detractors of lying about the certification.

      I think the situation is quite different now with Industrial Heat now in charge. Any request would have through IH anyway, and I doubt they would be responsive.

      • Thank you frank!
        Let’s hope IH is starting an own website where they provide more details as soon as possible. At least a certification number, where it is listet at SGS or UL or what ever, could be very helpful.

        • ecatworld

          I agree. I think it is critical for Industrial Heat to have a strong web presence if they are to be taken seriously — until they do, I think there will be many people naturally wary about them.

          I would be very surprised if they are not preparing for a web launch as we speak, and I hope they will extensive technical and regulatory information for potential customers. They should.

          • Yes of course.
            At last when the report is released, they should have it running to serve detailed and serious information to the large crowd of interested people.

          • Paul

            An high professional web site would be a little step, but they need the support of a very strong international communication agency too. Their first press release was ignored by all the media (with a few minor exceptions on the web), indication of not a deep work in public communication (which requires experience, tima and money).

  • @Frank: Can you ask if Rossi could publish the certificate, as he did it with the last “installation certification” from SGS?

    • Frank Acland

      Hi Barty — thanks for the suggestion, but I am not inclined to make that request.

      As I mentioned above, the publication of the last certificate was done under unusual circumstances with special permission from SGS as Rossi was being accused by his detractors of lying about the certification.

      I think the situation is quite different now with Industrial Heat now in charge. Any request would have through IH anyway, and I doubt they would be responsive.

      • Thank you frank!
        Let’s hope IH is starting an own website where they provide more details as soon as possible. At least a certification number, where it is listet at SGS or UL or what ever, could be very helpful.

        • Frank Acland

          I agree. I think it is critical for Industrial Heat to have a strong web presence if they are to be taken seriously — until they do, I think there will be many people naturally wary about them.

          I would be very surprised if they are not preparing for a web launch as we speak, and I hope they will provide extensive technical and regulatory information for potential customers. They should.

          • Yes of course.
            At last when the report is released, they should have it running to serve detailed and serious information to the large crowd of interested people.

          • Paul

            An high professional web site would be a little step, but they need the support of a very strong international communication agency too. Their first press release was ignored by all the media (with a few minor exceptions on the web), indication of not a deep work in public communication (which requires experience, tima and money).

          • clovis ray

            wouldn’t you love to be in on that pr team, well i can dream, can’t i.

          • Charles

            clovis, those keys on your keyboard, the one located to the left of Z and the other to the right of ?, with Shift written on them do not cause your computer to shift gears. I can understand thinking the left one would make the computer run slower and the one on the right make it run faster. Not so. Hold either one of them down while you hit a letter key and observe what happens. Neat-o, huh?

          • clovis ray

            yep, i hate it,:) and will try to do better, so please excuse my bad.

          • Ronzonni

            @Admin

            Would they answer your questions about this? Have you tried contacting them? You’d have a much better chance of getting a reply than an ordinary reader would.

          • Frank Acland

            I have tried in the past without success.

  • Sanjeev

    Its important because if there is a safety certificate for equipment, there is an equipment. So it indicates that a hot cat plant is also ready.

  • Sanjeev

    Its important because if there is a safety certificate for equipment, there is an equipment. So it indicates that a hot cat plant is also ready.

  • Ronzonni

    Isn’t a certification a public document? Why would the name of the certifying organization need to remain secret? Isn’t the purpose of certification to make the public more confident about the product? How can that happen when nobody knows who did the work?

    My toaster is certified by UL and CSA. I would not buy it without knowing who certified it. Megawatt plants are currently for sale. How can that be if the certifying agency or organization isn’t public information?

    • Frank Acland

      AR said today: “the data of the safety certification are restricted to the Customers”

      I guess if something is available to the general public then you get to find out who certified it.

      • Ronzonni

        Well, the issue of safety is a concern to anyone who may be living or working (or even driving) near the plant. Imagine how the public would react if a conventional nuclear fission power plant relied on a secret certification from an unknown agency.

        Safety certification which is not attributed to anyone seems pretty worthless. Why even mention it?

        • Ophelia Rump

          OK, who certified the nearest nuclear plant to you?

        • Iggy Dalrymple

          I’m not totally sure but I think safety certification is for the benefit of the customer, showing that a product is insurable by the private insurance industry…..therefore it’s not for the benefit of the public and not necessarily a public document. The nuclear power industry doesn’t require a private certificate of safety because the U.S. govt has a law which holds the nuke industry harmless for liability in excess of a certain amount.

  • ecatworld

    More on certification from Rossi today:

    Dima Redko:
    The safety certifications we obtained are strictly referred to industrial plants, for the reasons I many times explained. Our plants can work only if operated by professionally prepared employees that have to be certified by us.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • Frank Acland

    More on certification from Rossi today:

    Dima Redko:
    The safety certifications we obtained are strictly referred to industrial plants, for the reasons I many times explained. Our plants can work only if operated by professionally prepared employees that have to be certified by us.
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

    • clovis ray

      So it looks like he has did a end around on the patent office, and letting the market decide, what is truth. and the government, has to issue a licence to operate after said device has operated safely for a given time. that may not be the case, but it is one possibility,

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        Personally, I think that the certification is given to allow large
        corporations in the energy industry to become
        providers, first. This would reduce the dangerous potential of individual energetic independence.
        Could we imagine how many of us would purchase a home energy device, were it certified and available on the market at a price of $400? Deep down we all mistrust those who control us through the bills.
        This is why the industrial route comes first. Control is safeguarded.

        • clovis ray

          yep, i also think this is true, when they come out, they will need to make money fast, and probably will, then later on we get the home unit, And they should be the end game, to all power plants , will become obsolete. we will have all the power we need for anything , cheep, New world coming guys.

          • They (IH) also seem to be preparing a secondary revenue source – training and certification (“only if operated by professionally prepared employees that have to be certified by us”).

            The potential income from training, examining and certifying hundreds of thousands of operatives, probably half a dozen from every user of the reactors, shouldn’t be underestimated, even if this is conducted through ‘licensed’ agencies of some kind. This is a potential industry in itself.

            By establishing such a system, and operating reactors only in ‘secure’ locations, the technology becomes ring fenced, with an ever-decreasing likelihood of it becoming available outside this system. It is possible that after introduction and acknowledgement, puppet politicians will seek to make this capture permanent through legislation that formally identifies LENR as a ‘nuclear’ process.

            This assurance of control, together with an agreed schedule of introduction that will allow preparations to be made by vested interests, is probably what has enabled Rossi/IH to proceed with their project without serious opposition from the energy cartels.

          • clovis ray

            i agree, with you, this could happen,again no one has demonstrated a working lenr device, so all Dr. Rossi will have to do is say my device is not the classic lenr configuration, but something else, and has said as much.
            And your scenario could be close to what they want to do. that would leave all others out of his tent, and let them develop, lenr or what ever you want to call it, to it fullest.

          • Given the potential for disruption of cold fusion and other novel energy sources, I’ve long been surprised by the relatively light opposition, in the form of a few online shills and a press blackout. These seem more like delaying tactics – I would have expected more direct opposition, as seems to have occurred in the cases of the many previous attempts to introduce anything that might upset the energy status quo.

            A possible explanation for the apparent lack of opposition may be that Rossi differs from his predecessors in that he may have made certain compromise agreements with powerful players, that will give them time to divest and invest appropriately in preparation for a controlled introduction of CF. The energy cartels must be torn between the potential damage to their existing assets and current profitability that CF will cause, and the knowledge that petrochemicals are increasingly expensive to extract, and nuclear energy is dying, and they therefore need a new and ongoing source of profits.

            Arrangements for a controlled introduction of CF limited to the corporate level (themselves), ring fenced as I suggest above in order to create a new monopoly, would probably be the only arrangement that would be acceptable to them. I believe that it is this, rather than any technical or real certification difficulties, that kyboshed the ‘home’ e-cat, and that when AR began back-pedaling rapidly on this idea, this marked the time when initial agreements were reached. The founding of IH and what appears to be corporate involvement behind this company were probably fruits of such an agreement, rather than Rossi’s direct accomplishment.

            If anything like the above surmises are correct, then all new entrants to the field will need to make similar compromises – or disappear, one way or another.

          • the opposition is only from academic circles. since they carefully ignore and insult, ridicule the E-cat and all alike, like Sylvie Coyaud, Sverige radio, Stephan Pomp&clone, Jenifer ouellette, Luc allemand, Futura science mods, Start with a bang, cassandra legacy, wikipravda, NYT… there is nothing more they can do…

            they have no way to shut down Boeing, Shell,Elforsk or medium corps like Cherokee, Sunrise securities, SRI, or independent agencies which are voluntarily protected from consensus by lab independence, Nasa, navy, doD, or online newspapers like ibtimes

          • The opposition of academics is regrettable, but of little consequence at this point. When the pilot plant is publicly disclosed, those working in related fields will need to change their stance very rapidly if they hope to get a piece of the funding that will rapidly become available for LENR research, as the research world tries to get in on the action.

            As you say, academics have no power to influence corporations, and that is not what I was suggesting. However, the persistent MSM blackout on this topic (as confirmed by the removal of journalists who address the topic in any positive manner), continuing online ridicule or denial by the parties you mention, plus the sort of censorship exercised by Wikipedia, and the disinformation propagated by a small number of shills, taken together may indicate involvement by other parties. This effort could possibly be aimed at delaying introduction for the kind of reasons I touched on above.

          • deleted by author

          • bachcole

            I am glad that the opposition is behaving so poorly (I have to take your word for it since I deliberately avoid reading them.). The worse that they behave the worse will be the damage to their reputations and careers.

          • clovis ray

            I like the way you think, and it seems a likely scenario, i believe Dr. Rossi is a very intelligent, and crafty person. as long as i have been looking in on this discovery, he has always been on the cutting edge, not many mistakes, we can only guess as to what happened, when he sold his ip to IH, i was very taken aback, when this happened, i made personal contact through his blog, and he confirmed that this was true.
            I do not believe he lies purposely, usually if he does not want to answer, he will just say so, if the powers that be has control, we can only hope that your scenario, is correct.
            last time with f/p it was quite easy with the msm to help, they may have decided they can’t do it so easy now, so i say we wait and see how it plays out, we may have to ban together to keep it from being suppressed.

  • ecatworld

    AR said today: “the data of the safety certification are restricted to the Customers”

    I guess if something is available to the general public then you get to find out who certified it.

    • Ronzonni

      Well, the issue of safety is a concern to anyone who may be living or working (or even driving) near the plant. Imagine how the public would react if a conventional nuclear fission power plant relied on a secret certification from an unknown agency.

      Safety certification which is not attributed to anyone seems pretty worthless. Why even mention it?

      • Ophelia Rump

        OK, who certified the nearest nuclear plant to you?

      • Iggy Dalrymple

        I’m not totally sure but I think safety certification is for the benefit of the customer, showing that a product is insurable by the private insurance industry…..therefore it’s not for the benefit of the public and not necessarily a public document. The nuclear power industry doesn’t require a private certificate of safety because the U.S. govt has a law which holds the nuke industry harmless for liability in excess of a certain amount.

      • bitplayer

        Why not mention it?

        Your posts could be misconstrued as tilting toward the skeptopathic technique of “he didn’t give us all the details, so we should have doubts”.

        You’re welcome to search for the certification, in any case, to see what it says. Rossi’s not under any obligation to help with that effort.

  • georgehants

    Hank Mills
    August 13th, 2014 at 9:24 PM
    Dear Andrea,
    Congratulations on the safety certification of the hot cat reactors.
    That is an important accomplishment. Of course from everything we know
    about how they work, there was no doubt as to their safety.
    1 – Regardless as to the actual temperatures hot cats are capable of
    reaching, what is the temperature range they are certified, safety wise,
    to function within? This is simply the numbers on the certificate, of
    course, and has nothing to do with what the upcoming third party report
    may disclose, positive or negative.
    2 – Are there any other types of certification required or legal
    hoops to go through before low or high temp E-Cats can be used in an
    industrial setting?
    3 – When the third independent party report is released, do you plan
    to present your understanding of the theory of how the E-Cat operates,
    separately of any theory that may be in the report?
    4 – Have you been communicating with members of the team preparing the report to formulate a joint theory on the E-Cat?
    5 – To me, it is pretty obvious the upcoming report will show massive
    anomalous heat production (although as you say the report could be
    negative). In addition to excess heat and high COP, what else are you
    hoping to see in the report?
    Thank you.
    ———-
    Andrea Rossi
    August 14th, 2014 at 10:28 AM
    1- the data of the safety certification are restricted to the Customers
    2- depends on specific situations
    3- sooner or later we will be able to. Depends on the IP issues and situation
    4- what is discussed in our team, when it becomes an issue to be published it is, in due time
    5- difficult to say
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • georgehants

    Hank Mills
    August 13th, 2014 at 9:24 PM
    Dear Andrea,
    Congratulations on the safety certification of the hot cat reactors.
    That is an important accomplishment. Of course from everything we know
    about how they work, there was no doubt as to their safety.
    1 – Regardless as to the actual temperatures hot cats are capable of
    reaching, what is the temperature range they are certified, safety wise,
    to function within? This is simply the numbers on the certificate, of
    course, and has nothing to do with what the upcoming third party report
    may disclose, positive or negative.
    2 – Are there any other types of certification required or legal
    hoops to go through before low or high temp E-Cats can be used in an
    industrial setting?
    3 – When the third independent party report is released, do you plan
    to present your understanding of the theory of how the E-Cat operates,
    separately of any theory that may be in the report?
    4 – Have you been communicating with members of the team preparing the report to formulate a joint theory on the E-Cat?
    5 – To me, it is pretty obvious the upcoming report will show massive
    anomalous heat production (although as you say the report could be
    negative). In addition to excess heat and high COP, what else are you
    hoping to see in the report?
    Thank you.
    ———-
    Andrea Rossi
    August 14th, 2014 at 10:28 AM
    1- the data of the safety certification are restricted to the Customers
    2- depends on specific situations
    3- sooner or later we will be able to. Depends on the IP issues and situation
    4- what is discussed in our team, when it becomes an issue to be published it is, in due time
    5- difficult to say
    Warm Regards,
    A.R.

  • clovis ray

    yahoo, great news, congratulations Dr.Rossi, your the man of the age, nobel prize winning, friend of god, i personally am so very proud of you sir. and also to my near and dear friends here a E-CAT WORLD , What a interesting group we have grown into, over the years, congrats to all that has been patient, we now get our reward, and so does the world, i’m so excited, i want to thank, the god of us all, for this blessing, may we use it wisely.
    I would think that the reported visit by a selected few, might be next, because of the safety certification.
    hint, hint, hint. lol.

  • Broncobet

    That’s good news and I’m happy to hear that Rossi is working on the IP ,without that protection a co would be reluctant to release some information, he does have to be aware of hos competitors.

  • LCD

    when is the report suppose to come out again?

  • LCD

    when is the report suppose to come out again?

    • clovis ray

      who cares’ lol soon we will get to see it on film at least, doing work in a industrial setting, frank himself is invited to see it first hand, that will make the wait more pleasant,

  • Linda

    Until you can Google the certificate, its BS, even if its true. Seriously.

    • Omega A

      Here is a pdf file of the 1Mw E-cat from may 2012
      http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/EFA-rep-1107.pdf

      These are not easy to come by. Even on the SGS Certification site without specific information. They are not meant for consumer use or sales promotion.
      By Rossi’s statements, some fundamental changes have been made to the LT 1Mw E-cat so it’s highly probable a new certification has been obtained.

    • bachcole

      Is this the “nothing is true unless it has been proven” philosophy? That’s the philosophy that doesn’t discover anything new because whatever is to be studied is not true, so why study it? If the antioxidant theory is bunk (because it has not been proven), then no one would study it. Nothing new is ever discovered with the “nothing is true unless it has been proven” philosophy. I trust Rossi on an important and tangible subject like this. I see absolutely no reason not to. And not trusting him is an insult hurled at him and a character flaw in anyone who knows that the E-Cat is real.

      • Broncobet

        There’s a reason evolution has equipped us with anti oxidants, they are a police force to kill unwanted intruders.

  • ecatworld

    I have tried in the past without success.

    • bitplayer

      I agree Frank, and I appreciate that you are careful about spending the trust you have earned with AR, by not asking him questions that you for any reason judge to be not appropriate for your relationship.

  • RainDeer
    • Alain Samoun

      “reaching break-even with their design should require just a few tens of millions of dollars”
      If I had this kind of money,I would better try Rossi or Mills’ designs…

  • theBuckWheat

    While cheering Rossi on, and waiting for third-party validation, my only real concern is that until the physics are thoroughly understood, that any LENR device could enter a previously-unknown region of its operating envelope and become dangerous. So the only way to assure total safety is to have lots of operating experience, and to accept the risk.

    Think what it will mean for humanity to have a simple device that has a sufficiently positive COP that emits heat without combustion. This is one of those once-in-several generations watersheds of human progress as important as the invention of steam power.

  • theBuckWheat

    While cheering Rossi on, and waiting for third-party validation, my only real concern is that until the physics are thoroughly understood, that any LENR device could enter a previously-unknown region of its operating envelope and become dangerous. So the only way to assure total safety is to have lots of operating experience, and to accept the risk.

    Think what it will mean for humanity to have a simple device that has a sufficiently positive COP that emits heat without combustion. This is one of those once-in-several generations watersheds of human progress as important as the invention of steam power.

    • bachcole

      Buck, you may be new around here, but some of us have gone way beyond “once in several generations” with our exaltations. I personally have exercised my hyperbole to the extent of saying that this is the most important discovery in the history of human race. You really should polish up your hyperbole if you want to keep up. (:->)

  • Alain Samoun

    “reaching break-even with their design should require just a few tens of millions of dollars”
    If I had this kind of money,I would better try Rossi or Mills’ designs…

  • Omega A

    Here is a pdf file of the 1Mw E-cat from may 2012
    http://www.e-catworld.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/09/EFA-rep-1107.pdf

    These are not easy to come by. Even on the SGS Certification site without specific information. They are not meant for consumer use or sales promotion.
    By Rossi’s statements, some fundamental changes have been made to the LT 1Mw E-cat so it’s highly probable a new certification has been obtained.

  • georgehants

    Physics World
    Electrons in magnetic field reveal surprises
    The best glimpse yet of electrons moving in a magnetic field has
    revealed that the particles’ behaviour differs strongly from what is
    predicted by classical physics but is consistent with quantum-mechanical
    theory. Instead of rotating uniformly at a particular frequency, an
    international team of researchers has found that electrons in a magnetic
    field are capable of rotating at three different frequencies, depending
    on their quantum properties.
    http://physicsworld.com/cws/article/news/2014/aug/14/electrons-in-magnetic-field-reveal-surprises

    • bypasser

      Always good to see more news on structure below the approximations of classical physics.

  • georgehants

    Personal, public costs of scientific misconduct calculated
    http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-08/uowh-ppc081414.php

    • GreenWin

      An excellent and germane post George. The warning came from President Dwight Eisenhower in 1961, and was summarily disregarded by our best and brightest.

      “The rise in misconduct is a troubling sign of problems in the
      high-pressure scientific enterprise in the United States and some other
      countries, according to Dr. Ferric Fang, a University of Washington
      professor of microbiology and laboratory medicine.”

      That we are just now awakening to the corrosive military industrial complex, is discouraging – but better late than never.

      • georgehants

        I always find the psychology of why an army of Maryyugo’s attack people trying to move forward before any wrongdoing is shown and yet, I think, never visit the places showing clear proof of corruption and incompetence within the establishment.
        Even on these pages unproven attacks against reports of advances are many, yet if a report is shown of clear misconduct by scientists, almost no interest is shown.
        Our education system needs a complete overhaul, I think, especially scientific education that is killing all the brilliant potential of most of our young students and turning them into establishment zombies.

    • GordonDocherty

      “Overall, the researchers found that funding for research reported in
      retracted articles accounted for less than 1 percent of the NIH budget
      during the period reviewed.” – that’s for fully funded research. Putting the “Black Hat” on for a minute, and supposing LENR research delivers no useful results, the fact that LENR research receives a miniscule amount of funding compared to ITER, the LHC, the NIF and so on means that the vociferous opposition of some nay-Sayers does not really make sense. In fact, one is forced to wonder Is it because these same nay-Sayers strongly suspect that LENR research will be fruitful and, in fact, already has been (just by dint of the fact that it has required a re-evaluation AND RE-IMAGINATION of particles, both real and pseudo, in the nano-scale environment with local discontinuities in the presence of externally applied stimuli, no bad thing for science to move forward,). Further, perhaps these same nay-Sayers are worried about the powerful forces of change, unprecedented since the “discovery of fire” as they say, that such a discovery will unleash (needless to say, as I wasn’t around back when fire was “discovered” (actually, mastered would be more appropriate), I don’t know whether there were great changes, but it seems reasonable to assume that there were.). So, is this where we get to the heart of the resistance of the nay-Sayers, namely an innate fear of change (or, rather a learned fear of changes in the status quo)? If so, I would recommend those with such a view sit down and start working out how to capitalize on such a change to make the world a better place FOR ALL, for it is in scarcity that evil has its day, while abundance brings the promise of a golden age FOR ALL and, by God, has evil had its day over the last hundred years…

      • my impression from history is tha the first cause is fear of change, lasiness and emotional commitments in current paradigm.
        Thomas Kuhn describe it.
        For cold fusion fearful science fueled the critics while wishfull science fueled the curiosity… no problem in that battle of attorneys. the problem is that the critics did not let time for real science to happen. all was decided in 2 month (read Fire from Ice of Mallove to understand that).

        the second phase is that once academic have finally decided something, there is a huge fear of the ridicule, like for in Versailles-style Louis14 court.
        the result is that nobody accept the facts because the consequence will be ridicule.
        this phase is perfectly described by Roland Benabou and his theory of groupthink.

        Never were big oil, military, black suit, involved, except to be curious and do what academic refuse.

        • GordonDocherty

          As ever, it is less about the organizations as a whole but rather individuals within organizations who seek to hold fast to the status quo that cause the real problems, especially those who benefited most from the current status quo, a well known management issue… Alas, but perhaps not unsurprisingly, this organizational malaise seems to affect knowledge-based institutions more than other organizations. Indeed, as the CF/LENR saga has all-too-clearly demonstrated, too much deference is now given to “names” over “discoveries” in science. So, if “important science person X” says “Y cannot be so”, then it is taken as gospel, even when discoveries are showing otherwise… if only people are listening. This is why the Internet is seen as liberating by those without a voice and threatening by those who believe their voice is the only one that matters. This is not about the military, or oil, or commerce or society as a whole (all of whom will actually benefit from LENR technologies), but rather the pervasive evil of those who seek to subsume all – the military and oil and commerce and society – to their own will. “Their will be done”, as it were. These people did not create the world, yet they have decided they own it, such is the importance they place on their own existence above all others. These people, in other words, keep trying to “Play God”. To such people, a liberating technology such as LENR is, indeed, a truly frightening prospect. Sad, really.

          • Fortyniner

            Not so much sad as hopeful. The type of individual you refer to can’t be excused by the phrase, ‘they know not what they do”. “They care not what they do” would be much closer to the truth.

            Battle lines are being drawn, and for the moment they control the larger army. I don’t think we will be rid of them easily.

          • GreenWin

            Ah, but one small flat stone slew Goliath. Armies not required.

          • Broncobet

            It wasn’t flat. It wasn’t David either but I’m sure it did happen, as champions ingaging in single combat was common. The bible mentions the real hero and then says that he killed goliath’s brother, so they can credit David.

          • Fortyniner

            Unfortunately their leaders prefer to work from the shadows. Only a few foot solders ever make themselves visible by their actions, and even they are protected from retaliation by the system they inhabit.

            Bright light is the only disinfectant.

  • georgehants

    Personal, public costs of scientific misconduct calculated
    http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2014-08/uowh-ppc081414.php

    • GreenWin

      An excellent and germane post George. The warning came from President Dwight Eisenhower in 1961, and was summarily disregarded by our best and brightest.

      “The rise in misconduct is a troubling sign of problems in the
      high-pressure scientific enterprise in the United States and some other
      countries, according to Dr. Ferric Fang, a University of Washington
      professor of microbiology and laboratory medicine.”

      That we are just now awakening to the corrosive military industrial complex, is discouraging – but better late than never.

      • georgehants

        I always find the psychology fascinating of why an army of Maryyugo’s attack people trying to move forward before any wrongdoing is shown and yet, I think, never visit the places showing clear proof of corruption and incompetence within the establishment.
        Even on these pages unproven attacks against reports of advances are many, yet if a report is shown of clear misconduct or incompetence by scientists, almost no interest is shown.
        Our education system needs a complete overhaul, I think, especially scientific education that is killing all the brilliant potential of most of our young students and turning them into establishment zombies.

        • f sedei

          A dumbed-downed society where only the controlling elite have access to the truth?

          • no, the controlling elite is locked in the worst denial, and hide the reality.
            as Benabou explains, they are so deluded that not to hang ourselves in despair because the send uf to hell, we believe their myth and we beat the first dissenters that say the opposite and can reveal we are doomed.

            in fact to detect denial just detect when
            – people are 100% sure
            – dissenters are insulted as dangerous for the community

            the problem is that this is sometime true also for desperate people aware of the reality, convinced by evidences and desperate of general stupidity.

      • again I disagree the problem is military or industrialist.
        they researched cold fusion, provedn it, tried to harness it despite the academic red ligh…

        the monsters are
        – academic society led by lords of science, who defend political position and ignore evidences
        – high impact scientific journal led by dog who follow their tail
        – high impact media like NYT with incompetent journalist who follwo their tails too (sheep effect)
        – politicians with no bollock to oppose those previous clowns

        in fact the government and academic lobby blocked the military-industrial lobby to research LENR… anyway they did it , but in underground labs…

        what is horrific in the military-industrial lobby si that it is so junky on public money that it have to obey their incompetence, their academic funding panels, their consanguine peer-review process.

        private companies should be free to have their own process, their own criteria, not even allowed to follow a common criteria to please some fearful investor.

        any consensus should be forbidden, like we forbid monopolies because of anti-trust laws.

        • Alain, you ignore a worldwide mass media that has been completely captured by a few corporations, and which now manufactures corrosive propaganda and disinformation on a daily basis in order to maintain various false paradigms. Most other institutions including politics, the law, medicine and education seem to be similarly corrupted to one degree or another.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            Limbic system. Disinformation, incompetence, corruption, lassiness, perceived consensus all are forms of individual self-preservation and prevarication. The problem lies within ourselves.
            “Nothing is as approved as mediocrity, the majority has established it
            and it fixes it fangs on whatever gets beyond it either way.” (Blaise Pascal).

          • GreenWin

            Frankly, this is a fabricated scenario ignorant of human behavior. While mass media has been consolodated – the total absence of even a small handful of “underground, fringe, independent” papers and journals confirms the intelligence ruse. Human history confirms a record of resistance to fascism. In a non-simulated (i.e. human-based) world, there would be dozens of recalcitrant publications trumpeting LENR. That there are presently none is incontrovertible evidence of non-human intelligence.

            This is an intelligence that excels at cosmetic minutia but fails at human insight.

    • GordonDocherty

      “Overall, the researchers found that funding for research reported in
      retracted articles accounted for less than 1 percent of the NIH budget
      during the period reviewed.” – that’s for fully funded research. Putting the “Black Hat” on for a minute, and supposing LENR research delivers no useful results, the fact that LENR research receives a miniscule amount of funding compared to ITER, the LHC, the NIF and so on means that the vociferous opposition of some nay-Sayers does not really make sense. In fact, one is forced to wonder Is it because these same nay-Sayers strongly suspect that LENR research will be fruitful and, in fact, already has been (just by dint of the fact that it has required a re-evaluation AND RE-IMAGINATION of particles, both real and pseudo, in the nano-scale environment with local discontinuities in the presence of externally applied stimuli, no bad thing for science to move forward,). Further, perhaps these same nay-Sayers are worried about the powerful forces of change, unprecedented since the “discovery of fire” as they say, that such a discovery will unleash (needless to say, as I wasn’t around back when fire was “discovered” (actually, mastered would be more appropriate), I don’t know whether there were great changes, but it seems reasonable to assume that there were.). So, is this where we get to the heart of the resistance of the nay-Sayers, namely an innate fear of change (or, rather a learned fear of changes in the status quo)? If so, I would recommend those with such a view sit down and start working out how to capitalize on such a change to make the world a better place FOR ALL, for it is in scarcity that evil has its day, while abundance brings the promise of a golden age FOR ALL and, by God, has evil had its day over the last hundred years…

      • my impression from history is tha the first cause is fear of change, lasiness and emotional commitments in current paradigm.
        Thomas Kuhn describe it.
        For cold fusion fearful science fueled the critics while wishfull science fueled the curiosity… no problem in that battle of attorneys. the problem is that the critics did not let time for real science to happen. all was decided in 2 month (read Fire from Ice of Mallove to understand that).

        the second phase is that once academic have finally decided something, there is a huge fear of the ridicule, like for in Versailles-style Louis14 court.
        the result is that nobody accept the facts because the consequence will be ridicule.
        this phase is perfectly described by Roland Benabou and his theory of groupthink.

        Never were big oil, military, black suit, involved, except to be curious and do what academic refuse.

        • GordonDocherty

          As ever, it is less about the organizations as a whole but rather individuals within organizations who seek to hold fast to the status quo that cause the real problems, especially those who benefited most from the current status quo, a well known management issue… Alas, but perhaps not unsurprisingly, this organizational malaise seems to affect knowledge-based institutions more than other organizations. Indeed, as the CF/LENR saga has all-too-clearly demonstrated, too much deference is now given to “names” over “discoveries” in science. So, if “important science person X” says “Y cannot be so”, then it is taken as gospel, even when discoveries are showing otherwise… if only people are listening. This is why the Internet is seen as liberating by those without a voice and threatening by those who believe their voice is the only one that matters. This is not about the military, or oil, or commerce or society as a whole (all of whom will actually benefit from LENR technologies), but rather the pervasive evil of those who seek to subsume all – the military and oil and commerce and society – to their own will. “Their will be done”, as it were. These people did not create the world, yet they have decided they own it, such is the importance they place on their own existence above all others. These people, in other words, keep trying to “Play God”. To such people, a liberating technology such as LENR is, indeed, a truly frightening prospect. Sad, really.

          • Not so much sad as hopeful. The type of individual you refer to can’t be excused by the phrase, ‘they know not what they do”. Rather, “they care not what they do” would be much closer to the truth.

            Battle lines are being drawn, and for the moment they can field the larger army by orders of magnitude. I don’t think we will be rid of them easily.

          • GreenWin

            Ah, but one small flat stone slew Goliath. Armies not required.

          • Broncobet

            It wasn’t flat. It wasn’t David either but I’m sure it did happen, as champions ingaging in single combat was common. The bible mentions the real hero and then says that he killed goliath’s brother, so they can credit David.

          • Unfortunately their leaders prefer to work from the shadows. Only a few foot solders ever make themselves visible by their actions, and even they are protected from retaliation by the system they inhabit.

            Bright light is the only disinfectant.

  • georgehants

    – Scientists who play by someone else’s rules don’t have much chance of making discoveries.
    Jack Horner
    – The very nature of science is discoveries, and the best of those discoveries are the ones you don’t expect.
    Neil deGrasse Tyson
    – Progress depends on our brain. The most important part of our brain, that which
    is neocortical, must be used to help others and not just to make
    discoveries.
    Rita Levi-Montalcini
    – I am one of those who think like Nobel, that humanity will draw more good than evil from new discoveries.
    Marie Curie-
    – For more than 200 years, materialists have promised that science will
    eventually explain everything in terms of physics and chemistry.
    Believers are sustained by the faith that scientific discoveries will
    justify their beliefs.
    Rupert Sheldrake

    • Iggy Dalrymple

      “Scientists who sit in corner…. don’t have much chance of making discoveries.”
      – “Big” Jack Horner

      • georgehants

        Ha, good one Iggy.

  • rudyswiss .

    Today I read in the Dutch newspapers that Shell has sold oilfields in the US for 2.1 B$ and is planning to sell a total of 15 B$. And the German energy giant RWE sold 10% less electricity this first half year than last FHY and have to close many coal and gas plants. Reason: mild winter and subsidised solar/wind energy. Do they know about the coming LENR?

    • I think they all know about LENR. Shell did already minor research in the field as well. I think they keep an eye on it and will spent money if they get an undoubtable proof.

      • yes currently. in a EU country. 8)

        • That’s nice, so they take that topic serious!
          And if shell is doing so, you can expact all other energy companies are doing research as well.

    • clovis ray

      I wonder, as i suggested before if disruption is to great it will be bad for this new science, everyone else is just guessing no one knows what makes the e-cat family perrr,when the truth is only Dr. Rossi , and IH knows, and they will try and make as much money as they can, before the cat is let out of the bag,—-jm2c

  • I think they all know about LENR. Shell did already minor research in the field as well. I think they keep an eye on it and will spent money if they get an undoubtable proof.

    • yes currently. in a EU country. 8)

      • That’s nice, so they take that topic serious!
        And if shell is doing so, you can expact all other energy companies are doing research as well.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    Ok fellow Ecaters, I for one am getting tired of waiting. For fun lets all put a date on: At what point do we say this announcement is being held up by a non scientific force? My date is 9/30/14.

    • we already have many things published, that let no doubt.
      previous test, elforsk press release, elforsk perpektiv magazine, IH press release, Chinese press release…

      the problem is that none of the deniers that control the consensus is able to admit it is an evidence…

      there are evidence since long… for E-cat quite recently with Levi&al test and the lack of substantial serious critics (pomp ridiculed himself in a conspiracy paper)…
      for LENR since 1991…

      now if I give you the name of a Fortune 200 company that join an LENR research & development initiative , will you believe the consensus for brained humans have changed ?

      my 2cent bet is that it will not trigger interest… there is no hope but to make a plane that fly with LENR. 10 years at least to wait. we have the tea kettle , they ignored it.

      meanwhile all brained people will play with LENR… but APS no!

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        Ok, I believe the consensus for brained humans have changed. Please give me the Fortune 200 Company. (:

        • sorry not yet. guess alone. few hints, no answer expected.
          LENR-Cities is not targeting US.
          None have a reactor.
          Some have competitors who are LENR aware/active, or are active.
          the idea is to start the core so people want to join the club. Having a big guy in the club is a required condition to start an ecosystem, like having scientists and investors.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            The marvel of the human mind’s capacity struggles with our limbic system.
            The madness of how we interact with everything, from the environment to power to religious fanaticism contrasts with the display of cognitive advancement and the positive potential of human discovery/inventions.
            LENR is instrumental in pointing humanity towards a better direction, but it is the human collective mind (maybe through the internet’s instant consciousness) that can make the difference.
            Do money/power/limbic system not drive all and each one of us?
            Can large corporations be interested in human survival or motivated by the improvement of our environment? If we find the driver, we find reason.

      • Ten years to wait after indisputable proof of the most transformative advance in the history of mankind? How ridiculous! The world will adopt it with such breathtaking speed it’ll make the advance of the motorcare look like extreme slow motion.

    • US_Citizen71

      1/1/15

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        I can’t wait that long. (:

        • bachcole

          Well, I guess you could throw a tantrum. Or you could yell at Rossi and tell him to get a move-on. Or you could sue him and demand that he get a move-on. Or you could just forget about LENR. But the most compelling thing that you could do would be disbelieve LENR; that would make them tremble in their boots.

          • Bernie Koppenhofer

            Why not just give me a date? (:

          • bachcole

            If I had a date, then I wouldn’t be practicing patience, now would I? I have enough faith in http://arxiv.org/pdf/1305.3913.pdf and human nature that I am confident that it is going to happen, sometime, eventually. In fact, as far as I am concerned emotionally speaking, it is a done deal. But I can’t tell other people that because they will want to see it coming out of the doors of Home Depot. It is merely a matter of time before it manifests.

          • From an E-Cat Australia PDF from 2012 (sent to me by Roger Green of E-Cat Australia) … “Proximal – 10 – 20 Years -­ The Period of Economic Renaissance. I know that there are those who would like a quick fix that would happen overnight. It would be nice for that to happen, but unfortunately, it took us nearly a century to get into this mess, and it will take an absolute minimum of 20 years to get out of it.” … p22 … http://djbarney.org/files/E-CAT-TECHNOLOGY.pdf … If getting excited about ECAT and LENR cheers some people up, then great ! But the other side of this is pure persistence, true visionaries and all the hard work that goes along with that. The drudgery. The bad days. But I think we’ve all seen the light at the end of the tunnel 🙂

    • georgehants

      The only delay, I think, is from the scientists doing the report, that if they run to form will be delaying things to make themselves seem important.
      Will be trying to get the most personal ego-massage out of the situation etc.
      It must also be remembered in purely human terms, that if the report is positive, they are privy to information that is very valuable in many areas.
      The temptation to gain from the situation will be very strong.

      • Bernie Koppenhofer

        I agree, the temptation will be great to gain, money or prestige, from revolutionary news, they are only human.

    • Syl

      09/04/14

    • blanco69

      My prediction is the the report will be similarly enthusiastic as the last one. It’s what happens after that counts. What happened after the last report?…..er nothing. I’m hoping for a bit more this time. Or maybe we’ll spend another year preparing an even more independent, fourth party report. Who knows? The next report is simply that. The next report.

      • Omega Z

        According to Rossi, After the TIP2 report, There will be no more tests. Only R&D and industrialization.

        • bachcole

          If this is the last big, official, scientific test (which is the only way to describe this test since ALL industrial concerns are testing all of the time), then this must be for some specific purpose, like investors or customers and such.

    • Broncobet

      I believe that many on this blog would put that date somewhere in the 2020’s, I had a separate contest ;name the closest date for TIP release I’ll stick with my original Oct 5th. Guesses anyone???

  • georgehants

    From Vortex with thanks.
    [Vo]:a new guest editorial by AXIL
    Peter Gluck
    Fri, 15 Aug 2014 06:59:15 -0700
    Dear Friends
    I have just published:
    http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2014/08/fundamental-causation-mechanisms-of-lenr.html
    It would be very risky saying that AXIL is an open-minded and anti-dogmatic
    physicist (he really is!) because – I tell it from experience- all
    physicists claim(ed) to be so- even our late arch-enemy John Huizenga (RIP!)
    However, AXIL represents the New Wave in LENR physics and
    it is increasingly obvious (for me) that only a New Tsunami would be able
    to remove the obstacles in the way of a realistic and useful LENR
    complex of theories.
    Peter
    http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/maillist.html

    • GordonDocherty

      Dear Peter,

      an excellent article or, as they used to say… right on. Recommend it to all. Also, is it not uncanny that the “space” between electron and nucleus behaves like a Casimir cavity (although this should be hardly surprising to those following ideas about LENR as they emerge)?

      The explanation given in the article also fits in well with why Hydrinos make sense, as the “space energy” between electron shell and nucleus is decreased with respect to the outside world. The outside world now “pushes in” on the electron shell, making it very difficult for the now below-(outside)-ground state electron to be parted from the nucleus. It has become like trying to pull two half cups apart that have been joined and the space within reduced in pressure to a near vacuum (a quirky demonstration from years gone by for demonstrating atmospheric pressure.). Of course, pushing in instead (in some way, by adding energy) and you head toward a slow neutron.

      This is why I believe Hydrinos and LENR sit very comfortably side-by-side, and why LENR and radiation reduction, as discussed in the article, really are two sides of the same coin. They are, in fact, all just different points along the same journey, a journey that involves wrapping a proton with an electron shell while “pulling out” some of the space energy in between proton and electron to either radiate away or reuse to increase the energy of the electron, with eventual collapse of the now very heavy electron shell into the proton forming a neutron. To make this happen, however, requires resonance (also known as flutter at the macro scale – see effects on Tacoma Narrows Bridge) – and, yes, this effect will be greatly enhanced if the electron shell is elliptical (or even peanut shaped) rather than spherical.

      Finally, in the added presence of uniform direction and speed of spin between these “collapsing” protium atoms and adjacent protium nucleii / “collapsing” protium atoms / Deuterium / Tritium / heavier elements in the metallic lattice, the probability of fusion / transmutation between these adjacent building blocks is likely much increased, especially in a larger, still-Casimir-dimensioned fissure/hole/cavity, with lowered “space energy”.

      • GordonDocherty

        For those puzzled about how an electron / proton can form a Casimir space, a Casimir space is actually a constricted geometry bewteen two parallel fields – as the electron shell wraps around the nucleus, the space between is, indeed, a space between two parallel fields. Formed inside a reduced space-energy Casimir pocket, a captured electron around a proton (protium ion) is then able to “collapse in” (actually wrap around) the nucleus more tightly: when an electron is captured by a nucleus (ion) in a Casimir pocket, the resultant atom, when it moves out of the pocket, sees the electron shell “pushed” inward as the now greater pressure exerted by the higher space energy outside the electron / nucleus combination takes effect. This, then is how Hydrinos can form, as the electron is now able to “collapse in to” a radius lower than the Bohr radius, due to differences in space energy between the proton and electron (field) shell, and the energy outside. This also explains why it is more difficult to prize Hydrino electrons/nuclei apart and, indeed, the week interact between Hydrinos and EM energy – the electron shells are simply much closer in, so the “empty space” between atoms is even emptier, while the Hydrinos themselves are less likely to absorb EM energy even when there is a partial interaction, with a lensing effect more likely than a total loss of EM radiation. In effect, clouds of Hydrinos are more transparent than clouds of regular atoms, and won’t “glow”, so making it very hard to detect them, exactly the properties of so-called “Dark Matter”…

        • GordonDocherty

          Better yet, immediately after the big bang, as Protons/Electrons formed, for a very, very short period of time the early universe would have been stuffed full of Casimir spaces, perhaps explaining why most of the Universe ended up being Dark Matter, and why it appears threaded – effectively, we in the world of “normal matter” are quite literally living in the walls between the Casimir spaces (which pattern we see on ever smaller scales, and no doubt larger ones – the nature of our fractal universe). So, far from being “odd”, LENR / Quantum Effects / Hydrinos should actually be seen as entirely expected and normal for our Universe… a “perhaps”, but quite a compelling one.

          • GordonDocherty

            As a small aside, instead of the term Hydrino, a previous term was DDL atom – Deep Dirac Level atom, basically an atom with the first electron shell below the Bohr radius – discussed back in the early nineties, only a couple of years after the P&F experiment – and I quote:

            “However, the “collapsed” atoms of hydrogen and lithium with all their electrons on the DDL could behave almost as neutral particles with a substantially reduced Coulomb barrier.”

            See: http://www.fulviofrisone.com/attachments/article/359/Electron%20Transitions%20on%20Deep%20Dirac%20Levels%20II.pdf

            from 1993 for an example of such considerations.

            It would seem that, at the bottom of the LENR / Hydrino well, is a Casimir space in which ions and electrons combine, with LENR driving the process beyond Hydrinos to form slow moving Neutrons, ripe for transmutation…

    • Mats002

      Very interesting discussions in those vortex mail conversations. I think Axil summarize a lot of written material about LENR in an appealing way. If he is right, magnetism is the root cause of LENR, so I want to learn more about the inner workings of magnetism. What exactly is it and how to produce it for LENR?

    • pelgrim108

      I just want to say compliments to the author of the EGO-OUT article.
      I am a physics layman and could understand the whole article ( just had to look up what mesons are).

      My summary:
      LENR is muon catalysed proton-proton fusion.
      The muons come out from protons as an effect of strong local magnetic fields reaching in the proton. These fields are generated by plasmons in the NAE.

      Summary of the author:
      The protons derived from ionized hydrogen that floats into the magnetically irradiated NAE will produce muons via tunneling and that muon attracts another proton through coulomb attraction. This proton pair that is formed from muon attraction will fuse together after they are brought very close together by the muon.

  • georgehants

    From Vortex with thanks.
    [Vo]:a new guest editorial by AXIL
    Peter Gluck
    Fri, 15 Aug 2014 06:59:15 -0700
    Dear Friends
    I have just published:
    http://egooutpeters.blogspot.ro/2014/08/fundamental-causation-mechanisms-of-lenr.html
    It would be very risky saying that AXIL is an open-minded and anti-dogmatic
    physicist (he really is!) because – I tell it from experience- all
    physicists claim(ed) to be so- even our late arch-enemy John Huizenga (RIP!)
    However, AXIL represents the New Wave in LENR physics and
    it is increasingly obvious (for me) that only a New Tsunami would be able
    to remove the obstacles in the way of a realistic and useful LENR
    complex of theories.
    Peter
    http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/maillist.html

    • GordonDocherty

      Dear Peter,

      an excellent article or, as they used to say… right on. Recommend it to all. Also, is it not uncanny that the “space” between electron and nucleus behaves like a Casimir cavity (although this should be hardly surprising to those following ideas about LENR as they emerge)?

      The explanation given in the article also fits in well with why Hydrinos make sense, as the “space energy” between electron shell and nucleus is decreased with respect to the outside world. The outside world now “pushes in” on the electron shell, making it very difficult for the now below-(outside)-ground state electron to be parted from the nucleus. It has become like trying to pull two half cups apart that have been joined and the space within reduced in pressure to a near vacuum (a quirky demonstration from years gone by for demonstrating atmospheric pressure.). Of course, pushing in instead (in some way, by adding energy) and you head toward a slow neutron.

      This is why I believe Hydrinos and LENR sit very comfortably side-by-side, and why LENR and radiation reduction, as discussed in the article, really are two sides of the same coin. They are, in fact, all just different points along the same journey, a journey that involves wrapping a proton with an electron shell while “pulling out” some of the space energy in between proton and electron to either radiate away or reuse to increase the energy of the electron, with eventual collapse of the now very heavy electron shell into the proton forming a neutron. To make this happen, however, requires resonance (also known as flutter at the macro scale – see effects on Tacoma Narrows Bridge) – and, yes, this effect will be greatly enhanced if the electron shell is elliptical (or even peanut shaped) rather than spherical.

      Finally, in the added presence of uniform direction and speed of spin between these “collapsing” protium atoms and adjacent protium nucleii / “collapsing” protium atoms / Deuterium / Tritium / heavier elements in the metallic lattice, the probability of fusion / transmutation between these adjacent building blocks is likely much increased, especially in a larger, still-Casimir-dimensioned fissure/hole/cavity, with lowered “space energy”.

      • GordonDocherty

        For those puzzled about how an electron / proton can form a Casimir space, a Casimir space is actually a constricted geometry bewteen two parallel fields – as the electron shell wraps around the nucleus, the space between is, indeed, a space between two parallel fields. Formed inside a reduced space-energy Casimir pocket, a captured electron around a proton (protium ion) is then able to “collapse in” (actually wrap around) the nucleus more tightly: when an electron is captured by a nucleus (ion) in a Casimir pocket, the resultant atom, when it moves out of the pocket, sees the electron shell “pushed” inward as the now greater pressure exerted by the higher space energy outside the electron / nucleus combination takes effect. This, then is how Hydrinos can form, as the electron is now able to “collapse in to” a radius lower than the Bohr radius, due to differences in space energy between the proton and electron (field) shell, and the energy outside. This also explains why it is more difficult to prize Hydrino electrons/nuclei apart and, indeed, the week interact between Hydrinos and EM energy – the electron shells are simply much closer in, so the “empty space” between atoms is even emptier, while the Hydrinos themselves are less likely to absorb EM energy even when there is a partial interaction, with a lensing effect more likely than a total loss of EM radiation. In effect, clouds of Hydrinos are more transparent than clouds of regular atoms, and won’t “glow”, so making it very hard to detect them, exactly the properties of so-called “Dark Matter”…

        • GordonDocherty

          Better yet, immediately after the big bang, as Protons/Electrons formed, for a very, very short period of time the early universe would have been stuffed full of Casimir spaces, perhaps explaining why most of the Universe ended up being Dark Matter, and why it appears threaded – effectively, we in the world of “normal matter” are quite literally living in the walls between the Casimir spaces (which pattern we see on ever smaller scales, and no doubt larger ones – the nature of our fractal universe). So, far from being “odd”, LENR / Quantum Effects / Hydrinos should actually be seen as entirely expected and normal for our Universe… a “perhaps”, but quite a compelling one.

          • GordonDocherty

            As a small aside, instead of the term Hydrino, a previous term was DDL atom – Deep Dirac Level atom, basically an atom with the first electron shell below the Bohr radius – discussed back in the early nineties, only a couple of years after the P&F experiment – and I quote:

            “However, the “collapsed” atoms of hydrogen and lithium with all their electrons on the DDL could behave almost as neutral particles with a substantially reduced Coulomb barrier.”

            See: http://www.fulviofrisone.com/attachments/article/359/Electron%20Transitions%20on%20Deep%20Dirac%20Levels%20II.pdf

            from 1993 for an example of such considerations.

            It would seem that, at the bottom of the LENR / Hydrino well, is a Casimir space in which ions and electrons combine, with LENR driving the process beyond Hydrinos to form slow moving Neutrons, ripe for transmutation…

    • Mats002

      Very interesting discussions in those vortex mail conversations. I think Axil summarize a lot of written material about LENR in an appealing way. If he is right, magnetism is the root cause of LENR, so I want to learn more about the inner workings of magnetism. What exactly is it and how to produce it for LENR?

    • pelgrim108

      I just want to say compliments to the author of the EGO-OUT article.
      I am a physics layman and could understand the whole article ( just had to look up what mesons are).

      My summary:
      LENR is muon catalysed proton-proton fusion.
      The muons come out from protons as an effect of strong local magnetic fields reaching in the proton. These fields are generated by plasmons in the NAE.

      Summary of the author:
      The protons derived from ionized hydrogen that floats into the magnetically irradiated NAE will produce muons via tunneling and that muon attracts another proton through coulomb attraction. This proton pair that is formed from muon attraction will fuse together after they are brought very close together by the muon.

  • Christina

    3/23/15
    Christina

  • LuFong

    I agree. The previous certification Rossi bragged about was nothing more than a design level certification of his E-Cat, e.g., does it have an ON/OFF switch-Yes-Check. This “certification” is probably no more than a local code authority’s permit approval for installation of a heating device in a factory.

    All of this certification requirement nonsense is BoguS anyway. Governments always allow installation of new devices on a limited trial bases. For example, the state of California and Florida now allow the testing of autonomous cars even though they are still a long way off from mass consumer consumption. Rossi always seems to have convenient hurdle to overcome that somehow prevents him from disclosing all but the most most vague and primitive description of the E-Cat.

    FACTUM NON VERBUM.

  • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

    Personally, I think that the certification is given to allow large
    corporations in the energy industry to become
    providers, first. This would reduce the dangerous potential of individual energetic independence.
    Could we imagine how many of us would purchase a home energy device, were it certified and available on the market at a price of $400? Deep down we all mistrust those who control us through the bills.
    This is why the industrial route comes first. Control is safeguarded.

  • georgehants

    What a Wonderful page of comments, only two on topic, but lots of interesting views.
    Could I suggest while things are quiet a page asking, what must be done to change our society’s into something that will make best and immediate use of the miracle of Cold Fusion.
    What must be done to remove the corruption, and allow our children to grow up in a better caring World.

    • GreenWin

      Remind our most venerated “scientists” that there IS enough – and competition for financing and prestige corrupts the scientific method. Congressional hearings will demand full disclosure from all who impeded cold fusion (there are mountains of evidence and suspects.) Those who do not come forward voluntarily, will be subpenaed to appear and reminded of the penalties for perjury.

      This damaging, public scandal could be avoided by a simple consent decree signed by each and every party to contributory negligence of the benefit of LENR,

  • georgehants

    What a Wonderful page of comments, only two on topic, but lots of interesting views.
    Could I suggest while things are quiet a page asking, what must be done to change our society’s into something that will make best and immediate use of the miracle of Cold Fusion.
    What must be done to remove the corruption, and allow ALL our children to grow up in a better caring happy World.

    • GreenWin

      Remind our most venerated “scientists” that there IS enough – and competition for financing and prestige corrupts the scientific method. Congressional hearings will demand full disclosure from all who impeded cold fusion (there are mountains of evidence and suspects.) Those who do not come forward voluntarily, will be subpenaed to appear and reminded of the penalties for perjury.

      This damaging, public scandal could be avoided by a simple consent decree signed by each and every party to contributory negligence of the benefit of LENR,

  • georgehants

    Science Alert

    Fukushima studies are beginning to reveal the severe legacy of radiation leaks
    A range of studies on the impact of the Fukushima disaster have revealed
    the major impact even low-dose exposure to ionising radiation can have
    on animals and plants.
    http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20141608-26027.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencealert-latestnews+%28ScienceAlert-Latest+Stories%29

    • the problems is tah epidemiology on Chernobyl , as much as on nuclear test, bombings and so on, show that for humans the effect are tiny if not good.

      the major decline of fauna in Chernobyl is contradicted by facts that the fauna developed because of quietness from human occupation.

      today, besede 20% mortality for accute irradiation, few death among thousands of kids who drink contaminated milk (because of soviet stupidity) and caught thyroid cancer, there is no noticable effect.
      the noticable effect is physchiatric because of evacuation.

      people from ramsar , even the newcomer (it is not genetic) are in normal health despite irradiation of about half what cause blood formula change.

      Maybe the ormesis ist at lower dose, but at least low dose on humans have no noticeable effect compared to common behavior, like diet choice, sport practice, smoking even few, drinking even few, …

      this subject is very eùmotional and there is huge idiology that prevent some evidence to be accepted.
      even wikipravda have been cleaned from some official data (I’ve seen it).

      • GreenWin

        Published by the prestigious New York Academy of Sciences: 985,000 dead from Chernobyl cancer. http://www.globalresearch.ca/new-book-concludes-chernobyl-death-toll-985-000-mostly-from-cancer/20908

        • bachcole

          “prestigious” as in “consensus”?

          • GreenWin

            Good point. The New York Academy got a “call” shortly after this document was published and withdrew their sponsorship for the study. So, yeah, as in “consensus.”

        • Broncobet

          Yeah,a million people died and the EU and European countries say nothing about it.

        • total BS.

          they simply use model, extrapolate LLNT which is BS, as we discuss.

          applying that law to flight attendant would mean mortality that would be visible.

          http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/04/applying-union-of-concerned-scientist.html

          In ramsar too.

          the liquidators have normal health, mostly linked to heart disease like mots population, and yes cancer, like the population. you can just add stress from irrational fear, which is the only measured mass killer, around chernobyl and fukushima.

          the taiwanese paper is making some mistakes it seems, but the mass irradiation of people have mild consequence, none for people above 30, and tiny for young people compared to the modest absolute incidence of some rare cancer.

          the maximum dose in one year in some flat at the beginning get to the level that change blood formula if taken in one day. it was twice the one in ramsar.

          it is an ideology war.

          The lever on that taiwanese accident was finally not beneficial (there is correction) but it was far from what people imagine… far from the impact of a smoking dad.

          people are so sure it is evil they do all to prove it.

          Ormesis, at lower dose, is proven and theoretically unavoidable.

          LLNT is theoretically a dead model, simply people have no result, and refuse to accept some positive results (like in ramsar&alike).

          note that in ramsar people go there to cure some disease because the radioactive water is good for some disease (not a surprise if you consider that activating heat shock proteins may be good… or bad… thus it may cure).

          acute irradiation is deadly, but did you know that fishermen who were irradiated not far from death had kids… normal kids…

          maybe you could see an increase of down syndrome like for older mothers, but not an horror.

          note that about the butterfly studye that you initially cited, it is finally a media manipulation

          it was observed only on some butterfly, and not on any other species.

          http://www.contrepoints.org/2012/09/17/97574-les-papillons-mutants-de-fukushima-entre-manipulation-mediatique-et-illusion-statistique

          (french) translated

          http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.contrepoints.org%2F2012%2F09%2F17%2F97574-les-papillons-mutants-de-fukushima-entre-manipulation-mediatique-et-illusion-statistique&sandbox=1

          they also note the strange attention to details that is maybe double standard…

          it is to compare with the claim of massicve thyroid tumors, while such tumors may need much more years to appear.
          like it happen in france it seems more related to medical coverate and various rate of examination in the population, linked to panic or to health system improvement as in france (where some disctict shown massive increase while some more contaminated were not changing… moreover the change was continuous since decades).

          honestly I suspect that living in Fukushima prefecture will be better for some asthmatic guy like me who suffer from city pollution around paris (which is much cleaner than many cities anyway). And I don’t talk of smoking or drinking.

          anyway we all agree that LENr will solve that problem, whether it is psychiatric or real, like it will solve global warming, fracking, real or myth, all will be solved.

          • Alain Samoun

            There are so many manipulation propaganda on the form of half truth in what you said! I will just answer one:
            You said “applying that law to flight attendant would mean mortality that would be visible”
            I think that you refer to people flying airplanes who are exposed to more gamma rays from space than people on the ground who are more protected from it by the atmosphere.
            Your implied conclusion is that radiations are not dangerous because it seems that the flying personal presents no more effect than the rest of population
            This of course is false and not the real reason of our opposition to nukes: When we talk about irradiation from the nukes we talk mainly about hot particles: Radioactive particles from nuclear accidents/bomb testing or nuclear waste from fission reactors. Those hot particles are contaminants of air and water,they are readily absorbed by plants,animals and humans and Some of those particles contain for example radioactive iodine that concentrate on the thyroid and will create problems especially on children and young adults who consumed milk from cows eating contaminated grazing.
            The same for radioactive cesium that chemically is close to sodium and can replace it in the body.
            The same for radioactive strontium that can be concentrated in bones at the place of calcium.
            And not the least hot particles in air that will place themselves in the lungs and will create lung cancers.
            The nuke proponents try you to forget the most dangerous effects of their industry: The hot particles who have a health effects statistically visible sometimes many years after exposure but their victims should not be forgotten!

          • Fortyniner

            Exactly right. While there is reasonably good evidence for hormetic effects in the case of external and very low level gamma exposure, there is none (nor would you expect any) in the case of tissue exposure to hot particles or beta emitters such as caesium-137 absorbed by ingestion or inhalation.

            As the latter constitute the overwhelming concern about ongoing environmental contamination from Fukushima, a tiny beneficial effect that can only be seen statistically become completely irrelevant alongside the direct and consequential effects of such contamination.

            Cesium-137: A Deadly Hazard:
            http://large.stanford.edu/courses/2012/ph241/wessells1/

          • you are right the internal irradiation, like by dust, but also banana, or ramsar water, or Britanian radon in old house are bigger cause of irradiation.

            however the dose you talk about that cause ormesis seems to be dozen if not hundred of background, and if not beneficial, at least negigible.

            compare with tobacco which reduce life expectancy by 8 years (recent study).

            this is hysteria and data ignorance, as we see on LENR of similar scientific myth (here it is not a sci consensus, since science is clear, it is a media/political consensus)

            the nasty guys would say it is a conspiracy of oil companies who by the way fund big greens. I don’t think so beside they exploit “idiot utiles”

            anyway we are lucky, LENR will kill nuke as much are radioactive cola, radioactive windturbine (rare earth), toxic PV cells (heavy metals)…
            it may even help clean the long life wastes like Pu.

            the controversy, like on climate will extinguish short of problem, not by consensus.

          • Fortyniner

            Alain, I hope you are not going to work your way through all the various disinformation put about by the nuclear industry. The deliberate falsification that people are exposed to more radiation from bananas than from Fukushima is really scraping the barrel. This is from Wikipedia:

            “The amount of potassium (and therefore of 40K) in the human body is fairly constant because of homeostatsis, so that any excess absorbed from food is quickly compensated by the elimination of an equal amount. It follows that the additional radiation exposure due to eating a banana lasts only for a few hours after ingestion, namely the time it takes for the normal potassium contents of the body to be restored by the kidneys.”

            In other words, when you eat a banana, your body’s level of Potassium-40 doesn’t increase. You just get rid of some excess Potassium-40. The net dose of a banana is zero. Unlike low levels of radioactive potassium found in bananas – which our bodies have adapted to over many years – cesium-137 and iodine 131 are new and extremely dangerous challenges to our bodies.

            LENR will eventually kill the nuke industry but its toxic legacy will last for hundreds of generations.

          • you are right there is homeostasi with potassium, but you are less critical on the similar manipulation by anti nuke, like considering trace element where there are mass of natural radioactivity around.

            data that show that their panic model are factually wrong. like other scaremonger they only have models, and facts disagree.

            you talk of lobby and sisinformation,
            I talk of lobby and disinformation

            you cannot dismiss that Ramsar is not an horific place, that there is tumor increasing before it can happen showing that fear tweak the instruments.

            there is no home to convince and the tricky things with fear is that unlike cold fusion, you cannot even build a tea kettle to show that the consensus of fear is wrong.

            the debate is hopeless, and lobbies are so well installed as “GOOD” that you cannot even criticize them without being accused of being evil.

            anyway I hope it will die when the problem will disappear (unless as they try today when they will call a fatwa on LENR), making the billions that flow in that industry of fear stop flowing so quickly.

          • Fortyniner

            Your argument appears to be that persistant low level exposure to ionising radiation is good because it provides some protection from the effects of higher level contamination produced by – the nuclear industry. Even if true (it is a only partial truth at best), without the irresponsible activities of the nuclear industry we would need no protection as there would be no radiological contamination of our environment.

            You completely ignore the point made by Alain S and myself that ingestion or inhalation of radionuclides, especially in the form of inhaled hot particles, presents a special danger, as the tissues immediately surrounding a hot particle or even a few atoms of a radionuclide are exposed to chronic high but localised doses of radiation, not chronic low level radiation.

            http://www.epa.gov/radiation/understand/pathways.html

            Such highly selective arguments are fallacious within the context of gross environmental contamination that will inevitably cost many hundreds of thousands of lives, but typical of the propaganda presented by the nuclear industry.

            You continue to argue for the gross misconduct of the nuclear industry in a way that suggests a certain lack of impartiality. Unfortunately the history of previous incidents leading to gross environmental contamination and their cover-ups by the ‘authorities’ do not generate any faith in assurances of safety such as those you seem so keen to diseminate.

            http://ecowatch.com/2014/02/02/50-reasons-fear-fukushima/

          • Alain Samoun

            Alain,I’m surprise that you did not give the number of bananas that the Fukushima catastrophe represents, like you did before. Did you forgot or is the ‘argument’ a bit too ‘extreme’ for someone who says that he is so aware of the manipulation by anti nuke …

          • pelgrim108

            There is a chance that the Electric Universe is right in their assumption that the energy stars emit is related to electric streams in the galaxy. In that case a Dyson shell would maybe not be the most pratical solution.

          • Fortyniner

            Given the potential for disruption of cold fusion and other novel energy sources, I’ve long been surprised by the relatively light opposition, in the form of a few online shills and a press blackout. These seem more like delaying tactics – I would have expected more direct opposition, as seems to have occurred in the cases of the many previous attempts to introduce anything that might upset the energy status quo.

            The only reasonable explanation for the apparent lack of opposition seems to be that Rossi differs from his predecessors in that he may have made certain compromise agreements with powerful players that will give them time to divest and invest appropriately in preparation for a controlled introduction of CF. The energy cabals must be torn between the potential damage to their current profitability that CF will cause, and the knowledge that petrochemicals are increasingly expensive to extract, and they therefore need a new and ongoing source of profits.

            Arrangements for a controlled introduction at corporate level, ring fenced as I suggest above, in order to create a new monopoly, would probably be the only arrangement that would be acceptable to them. I believe that it is this, rather than any technical difficulties, that kyboshed the ‘home’ e-cat, and that when AR began back-pedaling rapidly on this idea, this marked the time when initial agreements were reached. The founding of IH and what appears to be corporate involvement behind this company were probably fruits of such an agreement, rather than Rossi’s direct accomplishment.

            If anything like the above surmises are correct, then all new entrants to the field will need to make similar compromises – or disappear, one way or another.

          • the opposition is only from academic circles. since they carefully ignore and insult, ridicule the E-cat and all alike, like Sylvie Coyaud, Sverige radio, Stephan Pomp&clone, Jenifer ouellette, Luc allemand, Futura science mods, Start with a bang, cassandra legacy, wikipravda, NYT… there is nothing more they can do…

            they have no way to shut down Boeing, Shell,Elforsk or medium corps like Cherokee, Sunrise securities, SRI, or independent agencies which are voluntarily protected from consensus by lab independence, Nasa, navy, doD, or online newspapers like ibtimes

          • Fortyniner

            The opposition of academics is regrettable, but of little consequence at this point. When the pilot plant is publicly disclosed, those working in related fields will need to change their stance very rapidly if they hope to get a piece of the funding that will become available for the research effort that will be required to understand (and exploit) the new energy source.

            As you say, academics of any level have no power to influence corporations, and that is not what I was suggesting. However, the persistent MSM blackout on this topic (as confirmed by the removal of journalists who address the topic an any positive manner), continuing online ridicule or denial by the parties you mention, plus the sort of censorship exercised by Wikipedia, and the disinformation propagated by a small army of shills taken together indicate involvement by other parties. This action may possibly be aimed at delaying introduction for the reasons I touched on above.

          • Fortyniner

            deleted by author

      • Fortyniner

        “American Genetic Association, Aug 14, 2014: Studies are now beginning to reveal serious biological effects of the Fukushima radiation. A series of articles summarizing these studies has now been published in the Journal of Heredity. These describe widespread impacts, ranging from population declines to genetic damage. Common to all of the published studies is the hypothesis that chronic (low-dose) exposure to ionizing radiation results in genetic damage and increased mutation rates – Hayashi et al. 2014.”

        “A review of genetic and ecological studies for a range of other species revealed significant consequences of radiation. Population censuses of birds, butterflies, and cicadas at Fukushima showed major declines attributable to radiation exposure.”

        http://enenews.com/scientists-reveal-serious-biological-effects-fukushima-radiation-widespread-impacts-population-declines-genetic-damage-high-rates-abnormality-mortality-species-significantly-impacted-disaster

        • timycelyn

          Peter, I’ve posted a very off topic canal type message in the always open thread…

          • Fortyniner

            Replied, Tim.

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        http://www.beppegrillo.it/iniziative/nucleare_no_grazie/

        Chilling. Sarcophagus still unfinished.

      • Alain Samoun

        Alain,as usual you are the mouthpiece of the nukes supporters here,if you were right,I don’t know why to bother to try to support CF/LENR,we could leave the nuke industry to develop ad eternum their fission scheme. My advice: Read the links above and below that your fellow bloggers have given and stop reading the propaganda of Areva and CEA.

        • I have a problem with collective manipulation, but yes it is without any importance now that nuke is killed by LENR.

          I just cant stand the manipulations by lobbies…
          as for LENr the evidences are clear, the manipulations are visible, but who cares.

          • Fortyniner

            I agree that there is manipulation of information about the consequences of nuclear contamination of the environment (both ways) by various vested interests. However I think that any reasonable and unbiased observer would conclude that the overwhelming evidence points to very significant damage to biological systems resulting from high level dispersal of radionuclides from Fukushima, Chernobyl and similar incidents, and from nuclear testing and failed high level waste containment.

          • as a reasonable and as unbiased observer as you say I have access to eviden which claim the opposite.

            one of evidence is tha Ramsar is inhabited, the Brasilian beach too, people in Chernobyl who stayled around are in better health than the one who moved…

            of course acute irradiation is toxic at short term, and noiticable contamination on kids cause cancer, but we are far from the million of death that are claimed…

            the manipulation and errors done by organisation like Greenpeace, like not counting the dose/incidence relation when counting desth, ignoring the effect much more massive of soviet collapse on the health system, could be as laughable as Gary taubes books…

            the problem is that like Gary taubes books it is the consensus.

            Today in fukushima nearly 3000 people died of consequence direct and indirect of the evacuation, and none of the radioactivity. (and 20000 of the flood – we thus should evacuate seashore after 220000 death).

            http://nextbigfuture.com/2014/02/evacuation-deaths-in-japan-in-2011-were.html

            same in chernobyl as the epidemiology found out.

            the scandal is that most of the claims that make people afraid are laughable, and have been debunked or relativized since long, but it is still the consensus.

            same for LENR critics.

          • Fortyniner

            I worked for ten years in a research lab dedicated to looking at carcinogenesis and mutagenesis in bacterial and mammalian models, so I would also lay claim to knowledge of relevant evidence. I think we must agree to disagree on this matter, as it is rather off-topic.

          • so you must know why the LLNT does not match the result on the field, and why common bad habits are much more dramatic than low radioactive dose. You should understand the meaning of the experiment that prove that for animal model, long exposure is much less txic than acute, at same dose.
            The dose makes the poison, and it is nothing but linear, and time is important. Moreover humans have a surprisingly high resistance to cancer, because we are long lived. otherwise we would not survive oxydants and food chemicals.

            whatever the models, mathematical or animal says, anyway people are living in ramsar, there is harsh battle to find whether they are in better or less good health, no clear significant answer on any side of the biased camps, and that alone says LLNT is bunk and low dose, breathed, drunk, eaten, have no shocking effect, while simple habits like drinking 2 glass of wine or smoking few cigarettes a day are clearly toxic.

            radioactivity is like most pollutant or drugs mostly evil, seldom curing, maybe required at a minimum level, negative but insignificant until some minimum dose, so question is the dose, and to compare with other problems.

            the exaggeration are clear. this does not mean it is always benign, but i would be curious to see the level of contamination required to have a noticeable effect on long life mammal, compare to what people around fukushima endure, or Ramsar.

            I imagine there is a LLNT model to bend the reality, as always when you have panic announce.

          • georgehants

            Respect to both Alain and Peter for a gripping debate on an important subject.

          • Fortyniner

            Your argument appears to be that persistant low level exposure to ionising radiation is good because it provides some protection from the effects of higher level contamination produced by – the nuclear industry. Even if true (it is a only partial truth at best), without the irresponsible activities of the nuclear industry we would need no protection as there would be no radiological contamination of our environment.

            You completely ignore the point made by Alain S and myself that ingestion or inhalation of radionuclides, especially in the form of inhaled hot particles, presents a special danger, as the tissues immediately surrounding a hot particle or even a few atoms of a radionuclide are exposed to chronic high but localised doses of radiation, not chronic low level radiation.

            http://www.epa.gov/radiation/understand/pathways.html

            Such highly selective arguments are fallacious when used in the context of gross environmental contamination that will inevitably cost many hundreds of thousands of lives, but typical of the propaganda presented by the nuclear industry.

            You continue to argue for the gross misconduct of the nuclear industry in a way that suggests a certain lack of impartiality. Unfortunately the history of previous incidents leading to radiological environmental contamination and their cover-ups by the ‘authorities’ do not generate any faith in assurances of safety such as those you seem so keen to propagate.

            http://ecowatch.com/2014/02/02/50-reasons-fear-fukushima/

            http://www.chernobylreport.org/?p=summary

          • Ted-X

            There are no safe doses of radiation, ever. A study at Waterloo found that even such small doses of that from CRT monitors had a statistically significant negative effect on pregnant women (I think it was about miscarrieges). Even Thorium given as a contrast in X-rays proved to cause cancer. Thorium has a half-life about the same as the age of the universe.

          • georgehants

            Ha, Roger you say, “There are no FACTS.” and then proceed to give a very fair interpretation of what a Fact is.
            You then proceed to explain that the people who do not stick to the known Facts “are not necessarily persistent and shared experiences.” so by your definition are not Facts.
            Let us stay with your definition of Facts which I agree with and use that in my comment above.
            Best

  • georgehants

    Science Alert
    Fukushima studies are beginning to reveal the severe legacy of radiation leaks
    A range of studies on the impact of the Fukushima disaster have revealed
    the major impact even low-dose exposure to ionising radiation can have
    on animals and plants.
    http://www.sciencealert.com.au/news/20141608-26027.html?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+sciencealert-latestnews+%28ScienceAlert-Latest+Stories%29

    • the problems is tah epidemiology on Chernobyl , as much as on nuclear test, bombings and so on, show that for humans the effect are tiny if not good.

      the major decline of fauna in Chernobyl is contradicted by facts that the fauna developed because of quietness from human occupation.

      today, besede 20% mortality for accute irradiation, few death among thousands of kids who drink contaminated milk (because of soviet stupidity) and caught thyroid cancer, there is no noticable effect.
      the noticable effect is physchiatric because of evacuation.

      people from ramsar , even the newcomer (it is not genetic) are in normal health despite irradiation of about half what cause blood formula change.

      Maybe the ormesis ist at lower dose, but at least low dose on humans have no noticeable effect compared to common behavior, like diet choice, sport practice, smoking even few, drinking even few, …

      this subject is very eùmotional and there is huge idiology that prevent some evidence to be accepted.
      even wikipravda have been cleaned from some official data (I’ve seen it).

      • GreenWin

        Published by the prestigious New York Academy of Sciences: 985,000 dead from Chernobyl cancer. http://www.globalresearch.ca/new-book-concludes-chernobyl-death-toll-985-000-mostly-from-cancer/20908

        • bachcole

          “prestigious” as in “consensus”?

          • GreenWin

            Good point. The New York Academy got a “call” shortly after this document was published and withdrew their sponsorship for the study. So, yeah, as in “consensus.”

        • Broncobet

          Yeah,a million people died and the EU and European countries say nothing about it.

        • total BS.

          they simply use model, extrapolate LLNT which is BS, as we discuss.

          applying that law to flight attendant would mean mortality that would be visible.

          http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/04/applying-union-of-concerned-scientist.html

          In ramsar too.

          the liquidators have normal health, mostly linked to heart disease like mots population, and yes cancer, like the population. you can just add stress from irrational fear, which is the only measured mass killer, around chernobyl and fukushima.

          the taiwanese paper is making some mistakes it seems, but the mass irradiation of people have mild consequence, none for people above 30, and tiny for young people compared to the modest absolute incidence of some rare cancer.

          the maximum dose in one year in some flat at the beginning get to the level that change blood formula if taken in one day. it was twice the one in ramsar.

          it is an ideology war.

          The lever on that taiwanese accident was finally not beneficial (there is correction) but it was far from what people imagine… far from the impact of a smoking dad.

          people are so sure it is evil they do all to prove it.

          Ormesis, at lower dose, is proven and theoretically unavoidable.

          LLNT is theoretically a dead model, simply people have no result, and refuse to accept some positive results (like in ramsar&alike).

          note that in ramsar people go there to cure some disease because the radioactive water is good for some disease (not a surprise if you consider that activating heat shock proteins may be good… or bad… thus it may cure).

          acute irradiation is deadly, but did you know that fishermen who were irradiated not far from death had kids… normal kids…

          maybe you could see an increase of down syndrome like for older mothers, but not an horror.

          note that about the butterfly studye that you initially cited, it is finally a media manipulation

          it was observed only on some butterfly, and not on any other species.

          http://www.contrepoints.org/2012/09/17/97574-les-papillons-mutants-de-fukushima-entre-manipulation-mediatique-et-illusion-statistique

          (french) translated

          http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=fr&tl=en&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.contrepoints.org%2F2012%2F09%2F17%2F97574-les-papillons-mutants-de-fukushima-entre-manipulation-mediatique-et-illusion-statistique&sandbox=1

          they also note the strange attention to details that is maybe double standard…

          it is to compare with the claim of massicve thyroid tumors, while such tumors may need much more years to appear.
          like it happen in france it seems more related to medical coverate and various rate of examination in the population, linked to panic or to health system improvement as in france (where some disctict shown massive increase while some more contaminated were not changing… moreover the change was continuous since decades).

          honestly I suspect that living in Fukushima prefecture will be better for some asthmatic guy like me who suffer from city pollution around paris (which is much cleaner than many cities anyway). And I don’t talk of smoking or drinking.

          anyway we all agree that LENr will solve that problem, whether it is psychiatric or real, like it will solve global warming, fracking, real or myth, all will be solved.

          • Alain Samoun

            There are so many manipulation propaganda on the form of half truth in what you said! I will just answer one:
            You said “applying that law to flight attendant would mean mortality that would be visible”
            I think that you refer to people flying airplanes who are exposed to more gamma rays from space than people on the ground who are more protected from it by the atmosphere.
            Your implied conclusion is that radiations are not dangerous because it seems that the flying personal presents no more effect than the rest of population
            This of course is false and not the real reason of our opposition to nukes: When we talk about irradiation from the nukes we talk mainly about hot particles: Radioactive particles from nuclear accidents/bomb testing or nuclear waste from fission reactors. Those hot particles are contaminants of air and water,they are readily absorbed by plants,animals and humans and Some of those particles contain for example radioactive iodine that concentrate on the thyroid and will create problems especially on children and young adults who consumed milk from cows eating contaminated grazing.
            The same for radioactive cesium that chemically is close to sodium and can replace it in the body.
            The same for radioactive strontium that can be concentrated in bones at the place of calcium.
            And not the least hot particles in air that will place themselves in the lungs and will create lung cancers.
            The nuke proponents try you to forget the most dangerous effects of their industry: The hot particles who have a health effects statistically visible sometimes many years after exposure but their victims should not be forgotten!

          • Exactly right. While there is reasonably good evidence for hormetic effects in the case of external and very low level gamma exposure, there is none (nor would you expect any) in the case of tissue exposure to alpha/beta/gamma emitters absorbed by ingestion or inhalation, particularly when these are in the form of hot particles.

            As this constitutes the overwhelming concern about ongoing environmental contamination from Fukushima, a tiny beneficial effect of background gamma radiation that can only be seen statistically becomes completely irrelevant alongside the obvious carcinogenic and mutagenic effects of gross contamination that will persist for generations to come.

            Hormesis is a tiny straw that the nuclear industry clutches at in order to try to cover the incredible extent of the damage it has done to the human population and the general environment.

          • you are right the internal irradiation, like by dust, but also banana, or ramsar water, or Britanian radon in old house are bigger cause of irradiation.

            however the dose you talk about that cause ormesis seems to be dozen if not hundred of background, and if not beneficial, at least negigible.

            compare with tobacco which reduce life expectancy by 8 years (recent study).

            this is hysteria and data ignorance, as we see on LENR of similar scientific myth (here it is not a sci consensus, since science is clear, it is a media/political consensus)

            the nasty guys would say it is a conspiracy of oil companies who by the way fund big greens. I don’t think so beside they exploit “idiot utiles”

            anyway we are lucky, LENR will kill nuke as much are radioactive cola, radioactive windturbine (rare earth), toxic PV cells (heavy metals)…
            it may even help clean the long life wastes like Pu.

            the controversy, like on climate will extinguish short of problem, not by consensus.

          • Alain, I hope you are not going to work your way through all the various disinformation memes put about by the nuclear industry. In particular, the deliberate falsehood that people are exposed to more radiation from bananas than from Fukushima is really scraping the barrel. This is from Wikipedia:

            “The amount of potassium (and therefore of 40K) in the human body is fairly constant because of homeostasis, so that any excess absorbed from food is quickly compensated by the elimination of an equal amount. It follows that the additional radiation exposure due to eating a banana lasts only for a few hours after ingestion, namely the time it takes for the normal potassium contents of the body to be restored by the kidneys.”

            In other words, when you eat a banana, your body’s level of potassium-40 only increases briefly – you just get rid of the excess K-40 along with the non-radioactive potassium in urine. The net longer term dose from a banana is therefore zero. Unlike low levels of beta emitting K-40 found in bananas and a number of other foods – which our bodies have adapted to over millennia – radionuclides like strontium-90, caesium-137 and iodine-131 accumulate within tissues and therefore constitute a new and extremely dangerous health challenge.

            Doses from certain other natural environmental sources such as radon from granite, when it becomes concentrated within housing, are undoubtedly dangerous when they exceed hormetic levels. This only serves to emphasise the real danger from additional man-made radioactive contamination. Smoking is a voluntary action – exposure to radionuclides spread around the world by the nuke industry is not. I don’t see any connection other than the fact that both are dangerous.

            LENR will eventually kill the nuke industry, but its toxic legacy will last for hundreds of generations. Nuclear fission reactors are the most incredibly dangerous way to boil water ever invented, and to construct more of them, or to extend the life of existing stations is IMO the height of idiocy.

          • you are right there is homeostasi with potassium, but you are less critical on the similar manipulation by anti nuke, like considering trace element where there are mass of natural radioactivity around.

            data that show that their panic model are factually wrong. like other scaremonger they only have models, and facts disagree.

            you talk of lobby and sisinformation,
            I talk of lobby and disinformation

            you cannot dismiss that Ramsar is not an horific place, that there is tumor increasing before it can happen showing that fear tweak the instruments.

            there is no home to convince and the tricky things with fear is that unlike cold fusion, you cannot even build a tea kettle to show that the consensus of fear is wrong.

            the debate is hopeless, and lobbies are so well installed as “GOOD” that you cannot even criticize them without being accused of being evil.

            anyway I hope it will die when the problem will disappear (unless as they try today when they will call a fatwa on LENR), making the billions that flow in that industry of fear stop flowing so quickly.

          • Alain Samoun

            Alain,I’m surprise that you did not give the number of bananas that the Fukushima catastrophe represents, like you did before. Did you forgot or is the ‘argument’ a bit too ‘extreme’ for someone who says that he is so aware of the manipulation by anti nuke …

          • the fukushima itself was much more than banan production, a tenth of chernobyl however, and much lest thabn nuclear test in the athmosphere.

            the recent leaks that make the press panic were mostly dues to hardening of safety standards and presented for tha pacific ocean a dose similar to a quarter of banan production, a quarter of one coal powerplant emissions.

            my main points is that le linear law is absurd and that as some says here many factors are important to judge of the impact of some radioactivity.

            people afraid that pacific is polluted are forgetting the tons of thorium that any river send in the sea every day, the tons of various radioactivity, some under homeostatis li P40, some which can accumulate… but pacific ocean is big and we are resistant.

            as it is now proven, the same dose one one year have hundreds less toxicity than in one day. that halving a dose have much less than half the short and long term impact, as it is for most genotoxic.

            as some say the real problem is contamination, but it is a dose also, and if the contamination is tiny the effect is tiny.
            the kind of element is important as some accumulate like heavy metal do chemically, while other are under homeostasis like potassium or iodine. but agains this is a question of final dose, and we eat thorium and breath radon.

            even if all dose have some negative effect, which seems false as in some controlled condition it is proven tiny dose activate protections (HSP) which protect from others aggression, one must use brain to compare tiny risk with the permanent risk and chemical, sun, oxygen, from leisure, sex, food, drinking; smokes, work, lifestyle…

            some lobbies, ideology lobbies, use mass of fallacies (I’ve read some good example on greenpeace sites), mixing bad logic, non sequitur by tons, ad hominem, black-white logic, to spread unfounded fear… Krivit and Maryyugo are amateurs compared to those billion funded corps.

            there is founded fear, and in fact most of the real cause to be afraid are not so popular… only impact of radon is on smokers, like is asbestos… smoking, drinking, overeating are the things we should focus on.

            there are some studies that claim that there is no low dose… sure for kids, like on chemical and alcohol and smoking, the sensibility of kids , and foetus is much higher than adults, but one cannot eliminate the evidence that people in ramsar and alike, in Brittany, have no noticeable, not blatant monstrous medical diseases linked to radioactivity.
            We should focus on things that have big impacts. Yes protects foetus, pregnant women, from all aggression, first medicines, alcohol, coffee, smoke, chili, without panic… and radioactivity at high dose, without imagining that it will be monstruous as some spread based on no data.

            in Fukushima and chernobyl the mental health of refugees is much more important and the campaign of fear is factually killing people, making their drink.

            the irrational announces, the coverage made on the good news, on the relativisation news prevent people to calm down… saying US will be contaminated is laughable… million of death is laughable… should be laughable, but it spread like urban myth.

            you all know my opinion. i see a campaign and arguments that I’ve observed in anti-cold fusion myth, and greenpeace used method that Huizenga, Maryyugo and taubes have used in mass.

            since the problem is solved I will save my energy for real battle.

          • Broncobet

            You are a brave and intelligent person.

      • American Genetic Association, Aug 14, 2014: “Studies are now beginning to reveal serious biological effects of the Fukushima radiation. A series of articles summarizing these studies has now been published in the Journal of Heredity. These describe widespread impacts, ranging from population declines to genetic damage. Common to all of the published studies is the hypothesis that chronic (low-dose) exposure to ionizing radiation results in genetic damage and increased mutation rates – Hayashi et al. 2014.”

        “A review of genetic and ecological studies for a range of other species revealed significant consequences of radiation. Population censuses of birds, butterflies, and cicadas at Fukushima showed major declines attributable to radiation exposure.”

        Journal of Heredity (Oxford Journals), Sept. – Oct. 2014: “The massive release of ionizing radiation to areas near nuclear power plants may cause major irreversible shifts in ecosystems and severe damage to human health…”

        http://enenews.com/scientists-reveal-serious-biological-effects-fukushima-radiation-widespread-impacts-population-declines-genetic-damage-high-rates-abnormality-mortality-species-significantly-impacted-disaster

        • timycelyn

          Peter, I’ve posted a very off topic canal type message in the always open thread…

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        http://www.beppegrillo.it/iniziative/nucleare_no_grazie/

        Chilling. Sarcophagus still unfinished.

      • Alain Samoun

        Alain,as usual you are the mouthpiece of the nukes supporters here,if you were right,I don’t know why to bother to try to support CF/LENR,we could leave the nuke industry to develop ad eternum their fission scheme. My advice: Read the links above and below that your fellow bloggers have given and stop reading the propaganda of Areva and CEA.

        • I have a problem with collective manipulation, but yes it is without any importance now that nuke is killed by LENR.

          I just cant stand the manipulations by lobbies…
          as for LENr the evidences are clear, the manipulations are visible, but who cares.

          • bachcole

            I doubt that it is just the lobbyists that is the problem, AlainCo. I think that it is people’s hysteria and group neurosis. I see this kind of group neurosis in issues like chemtrails, anthropogenic global warming, and vaccines, etc. etc. etc.

            I am not even in favor of vaccinations, generally speaking, but I see many people exaggerating, like saying that Bill Gates wants to kill as many people are possible.

            And even if I were to believe in AGW, people still exaggerate with their end-of-the-world hysteria, even in the face of evidence that we have had warming climates in the past.

            And chemtrails, that one really is psychotic. Even if people were spraying the world with whatever figments of the imagination of the psychotics who think this stuff up, the math and economics simply isn’t there. There is not enough airlines crossing the skies to change the climate and there isn’t enough money to fund it. But paranoid psychosis is much more fun than reason.

            I also think that the anti-nuke narrative is greatly exaggerated, but I will be ecstatic to see conventional nuclear energy go.

          • Broncobet

            TY To you too, bachcole, you’re an honest man.

          • “Denial is probably one of the best known defense mechanisms, used often to describe situations in which people seem unable to face reality or admit an obvious truth.”
            http://psychology.about.com/od/theoriesofpersonality/ss/defensemech_3.htm

            Don’t let the sand get up your nose, Roger.

          • georgehants

            Roger, may I point out that what you or anybody THINK, god, the pope and the president included, means absolutely nothing.
            Only temporarily proven Facts and Evidence are of any worth.
            Opinions, expert or otherwise are used today by science like religious proclamations.
            I have even had so called “qualified” people on these pages trying to change reality and history, to make out that there are not two disciplines in Math, Pure and the humble applied, exactly the same in general science where the distinction is hidden to make the humble “applied scientist” feel like a True scientist, who is only somebody, qualified or not who searches for new knowledge in the natural World.
            Only an open-mind that says, do the bloody research in all cases of disputed knowledge is appropriate and anything less is incompetent or even corrupt.
            Following opinions of the holy priests is why most of science has ended up as a religious sect of ineffectual non-thinkers ready to condemn anybody not following the religious holy rules and Dogmas.
            Cold Fusion comes to mind, amongst many other forbidden serious scientific subjects to prove my Facts.
            Opinions are only for fun in pubs or to try and workout the best direction for Research etc.
            Using ridiculous scientific “opinion” is why P&F where destroyed and Cold Fusion has been delayed by 25 years.

          • bachcole

            There are no FACTS. There is only what people experience and think. If those experiences are persistent and shared, then we call them “facts”. But as cold fusion has proven, what people think are facts or persistent and shared experiences are not necessarily persistent and shared experiences.

          • georgehants

            Ha, Roger you say, “There are no FACTS.” and then proceed to give a very fair interpretation of what a Fact is.
            You then proceed to explain that the people who do not stick to the known Facts “are not necessarily persistent and shared experiences.” so by your definition are not Facts.
            Let us stay with your definition of Facts which I agree with (for the moment) and use that in my comment above.
            I take it that you will agree that if no honest, unbiased, competent Research is undertaken in any subject say, Homeopathy or Cold Fusion etc. it is very difficult to ascertain the clear Facts because as you say there are not enough persistent and shared experiences.
            I think that is exactly the point I am making above.
            Best

          • Broncobet

            I appreciate your integrity in standing up to the cowards running nuclear power down which has saved more lives than any other energy system, you’re a good man. As much as I like nuclear power if you saw the future plans you would see much better plants than we have now, molten salt.

          • @ Broncobet
            ‘Cowards’ is an inappropriate and insulting term. You may want to consider your language more carefully in future posts, in the light of the posting guidelines for this forum.

          • Broncobet

            Your right, sorry, people who are afraid of all sorts of invisible and often harmless phenomenon as Roosevelt said ” The only thing to fear is fear itself”. Nuclear energy has been a very safe, secure, clean, and affordable energy source in the United States.

          • I agree that there is manipulation of information about the consequences of nuclear contamination of the environment (both ways) by various vested interests. However I think that any reasonable and unbiased observer would conclude that the overwhelming evidence points to very significant damage to biological systems resulting from high level dispersal of radionuclides from Fukushima, Chernobyl and similar incidents, and from nuclear testing and failed high level waste containment.

          • as a reasonable and as unbiased observer as you say I have access to eviden which claim the opposite.

            one of evidence is tha Ramsar is inhabited, the Brasilian beach too, people in Chernobyl who stayled around are in better health than the one who moved…

            of course acute irradiation is toxic at short term, and noiticable contamination on kids cause cancer, but we are far from the million of death that are claimed…

            the manipulation and errors done by organisation like Greenpeace, like not counting the dose/incidence relation when counting desth, ignoring the effect much more massive of soviet collapse on the health system, could be as laughable as Gary taubes books…

            the problem is that like Gary taubes books it is the consensus.

            Today in fukushima nearly 3000 people died of consequence direct and indirect of the evacuation, and none of the radioactivity. (and 20000 of the flood – we thus should evacuate seashore after 220000 death).

            http://nextbigfuture.com/2014/02/evacuation-deaths-in-japan-in-2011-were.html

            same in chernobyl as the epidemiology found out.

            the scandal is that most of the claims that make people afraid are laughable, and have been debunked or relativized since long, but it is still the consensus.

            same for LENR critics.

          • I worked for ten years in a research lab dedicated to looking at carcinogenesis and mutagenesis in bacterial and mammalian models, so I would also lay claim to knowledge of relevant evidence. I think we must agree to disagree on this matter, as it is rather off-topic.

          • so you must know why the LLNT does not match the result on the field, and why common bad habits are much more dramatic than low radioactive dose. You should understand the meaning of the experiment that prove that for animal model, long exposure is much less txic than acute, at same dose.
            The dose makes the poison, and it is nothing but linear, and time is important. Moreover humans have a surprisingly high resistance to cancer, because we are long lived. otherwise we would not survive oxydants and food chemicals.

            whatever the models, mathematical or animal says, anyway people are living in ramsar, there is harsh battle to find whether they are in better or less good health, no clear significant answer on any side of the biased camps, and that alone says LLNT is bunk and low dose, breathed, drunk, eaten, have no shocking effect, while simple habits like drinking 2 glass of wine or smoking few cigarettes a day are clearly toxic.

            radioactivity is like most pollutant or drugs mostly evil, seldom curing, maybe required at a minimum level, negative but insignificant until some minimum dose, so question is the dose, and to compare with other problems.

            the exaggeration are clear. this does not mean it is always benign, but i would be curious to see the level of contamination required to have a noticeable effect on long life mammal, compare to what people around fukushima endure, or Ramsar.

            I imagine there is a LLNT model to bend the reality, as always when you have panic announce.

          • georgehants

            Respect to both Alain and Peter for a gripping debate on an important subject.

          • Your primary argument appears to be that persistant low level exposure to ionising radiation generated by the nuclear industry is good because it provides some protection from the effects of higher level contamination produced by – the nuclear industry. Even if true (it is a only partial truth at best), without the irresponsible activities of the nuclear industry we would need no protection as there would be no radiological contamination of our environment.

            You repeatedly focus on the small observed deviation from the LLNT model resulting from hormetic effects, but you continue to ignore the point made by Alain S and myself that ingestion or inhalation of radionuclides, especially in the form of inhaled hot particles, presents a special danger because the tissues immediately surrounding a hot particle or even a few atoms of a radionuclide are exposed to chronic high but localised doses of radiation, not chronic low level radiation.

            http://www.epa.gov/radiation/understand/pathways.html

            Such highly selective arguments are disingenuous when used in the context of gross environmental contamination that will inevitably cost many hundreds of thousands of lives, but typical of the propaganda presented by the nuclear industry.

            http://www.chernobylreport.org/?p=summary

            You continue to argue for the gross misconduct of the nuclear industry in a way that suggests a certain lack of impartiality. Unfortunately the history of previous incidents leading to radiological environmental contamination and their cover-ups by the ‘authorities’ do not generate any faith in assurances of safety such as those you seem so keen to propagate.

            http://ecowatch.com/2014/02/02/50-reasons-fear-fukushima/

          • Ted-X

            There are no safe doses of radiation, ever. A study at Waterloo found that even such small doses of that from CRT monitors had a statistically significant negative effect on pregnant women (I think it was about miscarrieges). Even Thorium given as a contrast in X-rays proved to cause cancer. Thorium has a half-life about the same as the age of the universe.

          • bachcole

            I think all kinds of strange things. I think that inhaling certain essential oils are an aphrodisiac. I think that homeopathy works. But for the life of me, I just can’t figure out the mechanism of how even very low doses of radiation helps anyone or is safe. Given what the word “radiation” means, how is it safe or beneficial when rapidly moving elementary particles transmute atoms randomly.

            If I seem to being switching sides, I can’t help it; if I think a little deeper and see the light, I can’t help it.

            Radiation does serve a purpose; that purpose is to create mutations so that species can evolve and adapt. But my children are already born and are very happy; I don’t see how an increase in radiation can help anyone. I can only see harm, although the amount of harm might pale into insignificance compared with, say, worrying about it, smoking, eating too many carbs, not getting any exercise, worrying about other things, etc.

          • Broncobet

            Radiation from the sun in low doses gives us a healthy looking tan and vitamin D, too much sun is radiation poisioning,from four or five hours exposure in places like Las Vegas, will make you throw up and more is fatal, so most life on earth has evolved with radiation exposure.

  • Anandamyd

    The question is when will be able to produce one unit with 8oKW at 450C linked to one ORC machine which finally will delivery 10kW of electricity and of course 70kW of waste heat at 70 ˛C degree……………let see for not mor ethen 5000 EURO the whole unit……………….. if that will be realised then for sure will start the revolution……………….

  • georgehants

    An unknown patent worker with a minor degree publishes in one year five major papers.
    Peer review ha, if these papers where handled by the incompetent science of today we would still be waiting for them to be published.
    ———
    In 1905 Albert Einstein published four important papers, plus his dissertation, and set the stage for all of modern physics.
    The. Work. of. Albert. Einstein. 1905 1907 His famous “miracle year”; publishes scientific papers in prestigious German journal.
    http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/SciRefGuides/einstein.html

  • bachcole

    Is this the “nothing is true unless it has been proven” philosophy? That’s the philosophy that doesn’t discover anything new because whatever is to be studied is not true, so why study it? If the antioxidant theory is bunk (because it has not been proven), then no one would study it. Nothing new is ever discovered with the “nothing is true unless it has been proven” philosophy. I trust Rossi on an important and tangible subject like this. I see absolutely no reason not to. And not trusting him is an insult hurled at him and a character flaw in anyone who knows that the E-Cat is real.

  • Broncobet

    When the Web telescope is deployed we can use it to find other civilizations by their IR signature,more advanced ones will use much more heat than us enclosing stars in Dyson shells but must still ,like us, radiate all energy as heat to space.

    • pelgrim108

      There is a chance that the Electric Universe is right in their assumption that the energy stars emit is related to electric streams in the galaxy. In that case a Dyson shell would maybe not be the most pratical solution.

  • Fortyniner

    Don’t let the sand get up your nose, Roger.

  • georgehants

    From Vortex with thanks
    [Vo]:Paper proves Bill Nye’s faked ‘greenhouse effect’ experiment is also based on the wrong ‘basic physics’
    H Veeder
    Tue, 12 Aug 2014 08:19:08 -0700
    Paper proves Bill Nye’s faked ‘greenhouse effect’ experiment is also based
    on the wrong ‘basic physics’
    http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.ca/2014/08/paper-proves-bill-nyes-faked-greenhouse.html
    “Although not an accurate demonstration of the physics of climate change,
    the experiment we have considered and related ones are valuable examples of
    the dangers of unintentional bias in science, the value of at least a rough
    quantitative prediction of the expected effect, the importance of
    considering alternative explanations, and the need for carefully designed
    experimental controls.”
    Harry
    http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg96072.html

    • GreenWin

      Thousands of children disillusioned to find Bill is a shill?? This cannot be real.

  • georgehants

    From Vortex with thanks
    H Veeder
    Tue, 12 Aug 2014 08:19:08 -0700
    Paper proves Bill Nye’s faked ‘greenhouse effect’ experiment is also based
    on the wrong ‘basic physics’
    http://hockeyschtick.blogspot.ca/2014/08/paper-proves-bill-nyes-faked-greenhouse.html
    “Although not an accurate demonstration of the physics of climate change,
    the experiment we have considered and related ones are valuable examples of
    the dangers of unintentional bias in science, the value of at least a rough
    quantitative prediction of the expected effect, the importance of
    considering alternative explanations, and the need for carefully designed
    experimental controls.”
    Harry
    Read more.
    http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg96072.html

    • GreenWin

      Thousands of children disillusioned to find Bill is a shill?? This cannot be real.

  • Fortyniner

    ‘Cowards’ is an inappropriate and insulting term. You may want to consider your language more carefully in future posts, in the light of the posting guidelines for this website.

  • Omega Z

    Safety Certifications are about limiting Legal Liability.
    Similar to warranties. Used in a manor outside manufactures specifications becomes null & void. Use an E-cat outside manufacturers specifications & liability falls on you.

    Some Certifications are actually considered Voluntary. However, this law may also state insurance is mandatory. Try getting a product insured without safety certification. Either the coverage is not available or cost prohibitive.

    Note: Without Safety Certifications,
    The Manufacturer of most Products, Regardless whether you use the device according to their instructions or not, Becomes both Financially & Criminally Liable for any damage or injuries that result from it’s use. Either Jointly or Separately from the end user.

  • Fortyniner

    They (IH) also seem to be preparing a secondary revenue source – training and certification (“only if operated by professionally prepared employees that have to be certified by us”).

    The potential income from training, examining and certifying hundreds of thousands of operatives, probably half a dozen from every user of the reactors, shouldn’t be underestimated, even if this is conducted through ‘licensed’ agencies of some kind. This is a potential industry in itself.

  • Broncobet

    You are a brave and intelligent person.