E-Cat Rumor from a Possible Insider (COP High Enough for ‘Energy Revolution’)

There has been some interesting discussion here on E-Cat World today involving an ECW reader who goes by the name of Paul. I thought I would put the conversation in a separate thread as the current report thread is getting quite crowded. It should be understood that the identity of Paul is unknown, and naturally caution should be taken when dealing with anonymous posts. Paul here states that he and I have interacted, but I do not know his identity.

Paul
Nevanlinna is a smart guy who follows this story from the beginning and frequently publish interesting information he finds on public databases. I have seen photos of the interior of an Hot Cat, but obviously these photos are not public. The photos published by Nevanlinna are less significant, however I do not know how he can have such photos.

ecatworld Admin (aka Frank Acland)
It would be interesting to know how you have seen non-public photos of the E-Cat 🙂

Paul
Because I know the person who made the photos and I was authorized to see them. I prefer not to say more know, even if there are many pieces of this story which are not publicly known and that should. Many of the people involved in this story have something to say but they choose not to speak for the moment. They are sensible topics and there are big interests on the table, so I understand them. There are many information that I and other person cannot give in public, in the future I wiil give what I can, but what I am free to say is not so much. I prefer to be anonymous even if I have anything to hide, so you can choose if believe me or not. I know you personally and say you thanks for this blog and for letting me contribute a little, but I prefer not say why and when we interacted in the past.

LENR G
Paul, Assuming you can be taken at your word and that you have some insider info, what confidence levels do you have that:

1 – The E-Cat is capable of producing at least 3x energy input
2 – The E-Cat has a COP > 10
3 – The ITPR2 will be released before November

Since you are anonymous and answers would only represent your personal opinion you can share this info. And we’d like to get your take on things.

I’m somewhere around 99%, 50%, 70% respectively.

Paul
1, 2-Yes 99% (if you remember the old Focardi-Rossi paper, at the beginning the COP was 200, thereinafter the development of the E-Cat has been essentially focused in stabilizing the reaction and avoid neutron production, so the COP has been reduced opportunely, but however now is high enough to produce an energy revolution; in the first two answers, I left a 1% of doubt because, as you know, officially the TPR2 can be positive or negative…); 3-Yes 100%

  • Christopher Calder

    So, English must not be Paul’s first language. Maybe he is Italian?

    • My guess would be a Finn or a Swede since his associate Nevanlinna seems associated with Finland. Just a guess though and I respect his desire for anonymity so I’m not going to try and figure it out.

      • GreenWin

        Navanlinna is a rather famous Finnish mathemetician for whom the Rolf Nevanlinna Prize is awarded every four years.

        • Jouni

          off topic:
          Navanlinna translated is a castle in the bellybutton,
          Nevanlinna means like a castle in a swamp.
          In finish.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          Rolf was not alone. One Nevanlinna, a geophysicist, told me that half of Nevanlinnas are mathematicians and the rest are mad.

          • GreenWin

            Hah! I guess Olavi is one of the mathematicians.

      • Omega Z

        Navanlinna is Italian or at least someone who lives there according to info in blog posts.

        • Interesting. Guess I should do less guessing!

    • LucaS

      Please dont’be too choosy… It would be much worse if you would try to write in italian… trust me!

  • Jonnyb

    Has Rossi seen the report yet?

    • On JONP Rossi lately said he expects the report in oktober. So I guess he has not saw it yet.

      • Timar

        True, he makes mistakes typical for a native speaker of a Latin language, just like Rossi does. I’m pretty sure he is an Italian.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Rossi/Focardi have even reported a COP of 415 in one of their experiments. I always thought that they reduced the COP only for stability reasons. If the avoidance of radiation had been an additional motive, one could guess that there are possibly two different reactions, or classes of reactions. The first reaction would already release energy, but not enough to ignite the second reaction, as long as the COP does not exceed a certain limit. The second stage could be a ‘classical’ CF process, which would nevertheless be undesired.

    • Omega Z

      From information gleaned overtime, it appears Rossi & Focardi intentionally induced runaway reactions many times. No doubt this was in trying to understand the mechanisms at work.

      In 1 of those tests, it is stated that they detected neutrons & was at a conservative COP>200. Back of envelope it appeared to me that it was much closer to 300. A Regular on JONP also came to this conclusion.

      Rossi has since always stated the effect is intrinsically safe, as when the nickel melts, the reaction stops. I assume Rossi & Focardi figured out the cause of these neutron emissions & remediated it.
      I can only imagine certain entities or agencies will be very interested in this detail, If they haven’t already checked it out.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        The power output from a Cop of > 200 must be tremendous. No doubt all sorts of parties are interested in that. I imagine that kind of power makes rockets feasible.

        I really hope the hot-cat produces a COP of > 10. Power generation and commercialization should be so much easier at that level.

  • Gerald

    If this is true the Rossi saga I loved so much in the last 3 tests will only be a preface in the book of energy and material enginering. Amazing time in human history. Hope we do well.

  • Billy Jackson

    If you left off the name Paul and just said an Anonymous individual sent us pictures with the answer as you have posted them. I would swear that reading that sounds exactly like Rossi and the way he types English.

  • Daniel Maris

    Well if this Paul is genuine, that’s great…it would be wonderful to have the veil of secrecy lifted and hear such straightforward observations and explanations.

  • Billy Jackson

    Over the last few days reading separate articles here on ECW and the reader comments, You can begin to feel the excitement build. We can pray and hope that the questions for the first tests brought the needed wisdom for the challenges this test will face.

    while the champagne hasn’t been popped yet… it most definitely is chilled and waiting. I will say that if it comes back negative the disappointment is going to be crushing for a lot of us.

    • Daniel Maris

      Well I certainly feel excitement at the prospect of hearing the test results but most people seem really to just walk away unless something’s happening…hence this site being about as exciting as a morgue right now!

      However I am sure that will indeed change very soon…

      But most of all I look forward to some extensive info on the E Cat being used in a pilot operation.

  • GreenWin

    I like the way you couch this Andy. Sort of like “The Lost Ark” or “Lost City.” Much more action potential in “Lost” narratives.

  • Ophelia Rump

    What is the point of posting these anonymous these rumors of things we already know?
    Is there some value added here?

    There is no difference between this and a feedback loop.

    • GreenWin

      Don’t count on it? If we use an abacus?

    • Veblin

      Paul has no credibility. It is just a game to see what he can get away with here then brag about it on ECN.

  • pelgrim108

    Im glad the rumor has a very positif implication. Self looping will be possible with COP 11 or higher.

  • Bernie777

    How about us hiring a private detective to follow Rossi or one of IH employees to the new E-cat installation site and then interview some of the employees at that site to see how things are going? I’ve got 20 bucks burning a hole in my pocket for that project. (:

    • Owen Geiger

      Let’s allow them to work peace so they can change the world.

    • Omega Z

      Mmm, lets not. I’d hate to inadvertently cause additional delays.

    • Private Citizen

      If Rossi is anything like “for real,” can you imagine the number of international government and/or corporate espionage/sabotage efforts there would be? They would know more about his devices than him by now, unless he has rock-solid security that can stand up to the NSA, FSB, Chinese national hackers and spies, GCHQ and hundreds of other well heeled entities with $trillion interests and national security at stake.

      If real, this is no softball game.

  • Veblin

    Is he Paul or is he JohnPaul?
    ECN skeptic JohnP who likes to mess with ECW. Remember him for his previous Pierre Ordinare (GreenWin Says) posts or his Hope4Dbest guest Submit a Post, Requesting a name change for LENR to QUAR before saying Punked You.

    John.
    September 18, 2014 at 2:30 am
    “Paul” is someone who hopes for the best.

    JohnP
    September 18, 2014 at 2:42 am
    BTW, does anybody know how QUAR is doing?

    JohnP
    September 18, 2014 at 3:28 am
    C’mon, guys! “Paul” is not the dreaded General, OK.
    Do you Believers need this in Mandarin?

    • Omega Z

      Veblin
      Yes, Just 1 of several that play there head games here.
      This makes them feel smarter then others giving themselves an Ego boost. This is usually associated with low self esteem & a realization of their insignificant importance in the real world.
      Let them have their fun. It’s all they have in life…

    • Ophelia Rump

      So are suggesting that maybe he is really the dead Pope JohnPaul? Who is not actually dead, just escaped from his Vatican handlers, and trying to get his message out to the world? Well that is certainly a more interesting story, that would be worth listening to.

    • andrea.s

      Hi Veblin,

      no I am not an ECN member, I am not a believer (rather : interested but cautious), but I dislike the sneers of the ECN folks.

      But I feel like I don’t belong here, so I will stop at 24 hours and 5 total posts and leave.

      As someone would put it : Warm Regards, and thanks to F.A. for the hospitality.

  • Veblin

    That is what he wants you to think.

    • mytakeis

      he velly keve!

  • Sounds like a impostor to me. No new information, but he assumes an air of importance.

  • Ophelia Rump

    You can’t argue with a Magic 8 Ball. They are inanimate objects.

  • timycelyn

    I regret t say that I am pretty suspicious of ‘Paul’ although a bit of me hopes he will come back and prove me wrong.

    1. This ‘high COP’ scene just does not mesh with the continuing attempts to take the ‘gas-cat’ forward, in spite of the difficulties it seems to have. If CP>20 one can just ignore the cost of electrical excitation.

    2. ‘Paul’ has not come forward yet to comment or address the suspicions others are expressing here.

    3. There is a frenzy of near-orgasm*c juvenile glee about the ‘Paul’ thing amongst those strange dysfunctional denizens of ECN, where at serious risk to my sanity I have just taken a brief look, including a significant piece on the subject from John P.

    Frank, I’m afraid we need to forget about this until we get something other than an anonymous rumour. I know in this ‘no news’ period it is incredibly tempting, but that just invites these sad cases (most of whom would benefit from lengthy therapy of some sort) to mess with us.

    Sorry!

    Tim

    • Ophelia Rump

      The gas Cat thing is more of a revelation of Rossi not completely knowing how the E-Cat works. There seems to be an extremely significant variable which electricity satisfies but gas does not. I do not see how failure of one precludes some arbitrary level of efficiency in the other. A COP of 100 would be less than .000001% of the potential COP.

      • timycelyn

        Hi Ophelia, the point I was trying to make was that I still struggle to believe that Rossi and Industrial heat would prioritise research on a Gas Cat (as opposed to it being something in the medium term to be looked at as a curiosity) if they had the more normal electrically ‘pumped’ E-Cat at the higher COPs that are currently being mentioned in this thread.

        Basically, if you have a higher COP available with current technology- my selection of >20 is arbitary, but I’m trying to say ‘A COP well more than the old official line of 6’ – then you wouldn’t mess with Gas Cats, with your limited research resources. You’d be very happy with what you had got for the time being – it would be good enough …….

        Ergo, as Rossi is looking at Gas Cats, this makes me sceptical (sadly – I hope I am going to be proved wrong…please!) of anonymous rumours of high COP E-Cat technology options and test results in the short term, and thereby sceptical of the veracity of these gung-ho comments from ‘Paul’.

        Not to say this technology cannot be refined in future to go to high COP,s as the early work cited in this forum suggests these are possible and even demonstrable in the lab.

        However, this seems currently to be a long way away from the safe and robust exploitable technology that Rossi and IH are assumed to be developing, and (another assumption) presumably more or less represented by the E-cats they supplied to the Independent Parties for test.

        Cheers

        Tim

        • Ophelia Rump

          Absolutely! You are spot on rational and reasonable.

    • fritz194

      1) I think the most interesting thing about this new technology is the potential achievable COP – and it seems to be infinite. It´s only a matter of excitation and neutron production tradeoff.
      If we take into account that we have just a few man-years of edisonian “engineering” on this “product” – we will see what the future brings.
      Because IH will introduce this technology – they need a serious and profitable use-case.
      A COP of 6 can be easily achieved with geothermal facilities – so an interesting scenario could be remote and isolated, compact units, driven of liquid gas or similar without needing any extra infrastructure.
      Having a use-case and cats sold – would enable a steady flow of revenue into more research, tuning and better COP.

      • Broncobet

        No no,if it works at all it doesn’t need any other input, that is all a distraction. All you would need is a battery.

    • Broncobet

      Darn, that’s a little disappointing, but accurate.

  • robyn wyrick

    It’s interesting to me to see so many here challenging Paul’s authenticity.

    I don’t think s/he says anything radically new. Just statements that s/he has see the actual product. But Rossi himself says his system is real.

    If I said, “Yes, I saw it, and it was amazing, but I can’t say anything more,” that would be all fine and good, but it doesn’t change anything. For one thing, Paul doesn’t say anything about his qualifications – even if he saw it first hand, would he know if it worked or not? We have no way of knowing.

    Also, Paul repeats the “I have nothing to say now” statement we have grown accustomed to from Rossi. That’s nothing new.

    Paul is 100% confident that the third party report will come out before November, but so what? If he is right, it fits comfortably into the standard narrative. If he is wrong, heck, timetables have been all over the map on this subject. That doesn’t discredit him in my mind.

    While Paul has some generally encouraging statements, so what? It’s pleasant, yes, but in the field of Cold Fusion, general encouragement is for neophytes. People who have watched it for a long time are used to waiting, and searching, and going long intervals without encouragement.

    So I read this post as interesting, but it doesn’t change my conviction: there have already been third party reports on LENR from around the globe – and at least one on the e-cat. Rossi said he had sold his IP to a US-based firm and everyone doubted him – saying, put up or shut up. But he was right, and they were wrong. I can’t imagine that IH is just resting on testing done prior to the acquisition of the IP – they must certainly be running extensive tests – as Rossi says repeatedly, and no one at IH ever contradicts.

    So thanks for the post Paul. Good to have your contribution. Thanks, Frank for posting it too.

    • Broncobet

      Yes, the sale of the IP from Rossi to IH gave a lot of optimism to many of us, because, like you say, if someone was paying ten million , surely they would have tested it? No, this is not what happened at all. AR had a lot of fans who believed every thing he said. Darden has some funding experience. He simply matched up people who were convinced that LENR has a future, with Rossi’s work, which is done all the time in the business world. This does not mean that anyone did any test on E Cats,it’s the investors that take the risk, Darden et al take no risk at all and probably got their percentage off the top. There’s no need to have a test for the investors since they believe this tech works, on faith alone. None of this means that it doesn’t work or that demos have not been done, I’m just pointing out, that the current situation, could easily occurred without any testing. Now release that report by Oct 5th and make me a prophet!

      • it is not what Cherokee fund said.

        “Mr. Vaughn confirmed IH acquired the intellectual property and licensing rights to Rossi’s LENR device after an independent committee of European scientists conducted two multi-day tests at Rossi’s facilities in Italy.

        The published report by the European committee concluded, “Even by the most conservative assumptions as to the errors in the measurements, the result is still one order of magnitude greater than conventional energy sources” [referring to energy output per unit of mass]. The report is available online at http://arxiv.org/abs/1305.3913. In addition, performance validation tests were conducted in the presence of IH personnel and certified by an independent expert.”

        moreover Cherokee is not a tycoon but a mutual fund, and there is requirement of “Due Diligence”, like independent test and inquiry on the inventor…

        • psi2u2

          AlainCo,

          Thank you for the highly pertinent correction to the misunderstandings of the previous poster.

  • Private Citizen

    >So why waste spy type resources on something they are skeptical about?

    That is what spy resources are for, to gain intelligence on commercially or militarily exploitable technology. My caveat is “if Rossi is anything like for real,” which these nations and interests might have decided he isn’t.

    The most important, disruptive, technology since the invention of fire, with the potential to bankrupt petroleum oligopolies and nations, to reinvent warfare, transportation, farming, civilization itself, might just might fall into the category of urgent intelligence– not let’s just wait and see.

  • Private Citizen

    Blind belief and disbelief are both hard to penetrate. Most readers here probably believe there was an academic and/or governmental conspiracy to cover up Pons and Fleschman’s discovery. I do.

    Now we want to suspend belief that governments or corporate interests might want to spy on Rossi because they don’t believe in cold fusion or have never heard of eCat? NASA, US Navy, Mitsubishi, MIT, several other top universities with LENR divisions, all know about cold fusion progress, but the reputed leader in the field about to commercialize is ignored for some reason? That disbelief is hard to penetrate.

    • mytakeis

      the difference is the internet evolving into a knowledge transference. Pon and Fleish came before it. There is no stopping the outing of new energy now.

  • Paul

    Thank you, Wryck! Just to, exceptionally, reply to the person who addressed to me not exactly kind words, I have never written COP>20, so Gas Cat makes sense…

    • timycelyn

      Paul – nice to see your reply. I’m sorry that I am a little sceptical, but there are some mischief-makers around from a sad group of pseudo-skeps, so I tend to be particularly wary of semi-anonymous claims of this type.

      I realise you mention<10, not <20 for the current tests, but still contend that at these levels I would not have expected Gas Cat research to be pursued as actively as it appears at present.

      If the future supports the points you have made here, I apologise. (To be honest, part of me is already blushing ….)

      However, until then – I remain wary and unconvinced……

      • Paul

        Obviously, you wanted to write “I realise you mention >10, not >20 for the current tests”. Regarding the use of gas instead of electricity, the savings depends on many factors and on the Country we are talking about, due to the different tariffs ratio between electricity and gas in different nations, but generally speaking, so not for the E-Cat in particular, we are talking, roughly, of a factor 2.

        • mytakeis

          Paul, you sure do not write as Italian as your mother tongue to me – but hey it don’t matter, just happy to read what you ‘say’

      • Veblin

        JohnP from ECN AKA Pierre Ordinare and Hope4Dbest on ECW.

        JohnP is not quite done playing here so he is not ready to jump up and shout his You’ve Been Punked message. But he wants to hint to his buddies just that.

        JohnP
        C’mon, guys! “Paul” is not the dreaded General, OK.
        Do you Believers need this in Mandarin?
        “Paul” is someone who hopes for the best.

        JohnP says he is Paul.
        Paul doesn’t say he is not JohnP.

  • LCD

    Requiring neutron feedback would help mitigate easy weaponization

  • US_Citizen71

    The problem with remotely controlling your hypothetical weapon is radiation plays havoc with electronics. You could turn it on and the radiation could block any further control, it could even make servos randomly activate resulting in the weapon aiming itself at you.

    • LCD

      Aiming? Once it’s remotely started the perpetrator won’t care. It’s a valid point. Look at the Genie, it lends credence to the idea that neutron generation is a likely stable state. Having to police a world where your average Joe can create a dirty bomb like that so to speak would be difficult.

      I don’t think anybody is saying we outlaw LENR but we have to be aware of the consequences and figure out ways to mitigate them.

      • US_Citizen71

        It’s not a bomb and could be a bomb no chain reaction. It’s more like a microwave oven with the door taken off or a large solid piece of radioactive material. Nothing to spread around it would just emit Neutrons.

        • LCD

          So the “so to speak” didn’t do it for you. Use whatever you want, it’s possibly quick and dirty and would kill or hurt people.

          If you want to bury your head in the sand go for it but I’d rather go in eyes wide open.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        The bad message is that it could be much simpler. Just think of the possibility of creating dangerous radioactive isotopes by LENR. There is no option to withdraw all suitable materials from the market, and hydrogen can be produced easily by electrolysis, for example. The only way to prevent an abuse would be keeping the methods secret. That might be possible for a while, but certainly not forever.

        • LCD

          Good point Andreas. I think for starters a world full of radiation/patricle detectors could be the future.

    • LCD

      None of those other ways are possibly as easy as this and we have no idea of th amount or energies of the neutron production. Again we just need to be aware of the possible problem not go into panic mode.

      • US_Citizen71

        No none of them are easily done that is why the are science fiction, just like your hypothetical weaponized ECat.

        • LCD

          Okay pal, if the ecat is not science fiction then neither is this, don’t you agree?

          • US_Citizen71

            Nope.

          • LCD

            Okay that is all I needed t know to guage your level of competence.

            If you don’t have the background to intellectually stay in a conversation just say so. No need to show your ignorance.

          • US_Citizen71

            Nuclear weapons are quite real there are many videos available to show what a detonation looks like, the knowledge to build one is easily obtainable today. But, no one has yet made a hellbore. Why? Technical and engineering challenges exceed our ability to make one. So does that mean that nukes must be science fiction since we can’t make a hellbore?

          • LCD

            What does that have to do with anything I’ve said

          • US_Citizen71

            Just using the same circular logic as “if the ecat is not science fiction then neither is this,”!

    • LCD

      And you are ok with that?

      • US_Citizen71

        OK with what?

        • LCD

          Secretly killing your neighbor, lol.

          • US_Citizen71

            That was simply a metaphorical creation. I didn’t want to make a political statement by choosing a bad guy, so I used a universal motivator, protecting one’s mate.

          • LCD

            Your missing the point

          • US_Citizen71

            You had a point?!

          • LCD

            Only that I’m wasting my time talking to a ninth grader

          • Matt Sevrens

            How does COP relate to EROEI?

          • Broncobet

            I like that metric which is very favorable for nuclear facilities and higher for advanced nuclear.

  • Private Citizen

    The late Dr. Eugene Mallove’s testamony is that replication results were doctored at MIT to hide evidence of excess energy:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=6y98YwJ2GEE#t=268

  • US_Citizen71

    Rossi is under NDA , “TPR2 can be positive or negative” translates to I cannot confirm or deny what is being asked/discussed.

  • Omega Z

    This Neutron production only happens under unique conditions during a runaway situation of which the device self destructs in seconds.
    Tho not something you want, the Neutron production must be of a very limited nature as Rossi is still with us. Also note that Neutron’s were detected in only (1) specific Unique case.
    Rocks would probably be a better & more dependable weapon.

  • Omega Z

    Scientifically,
    Until it is verified by an Independent 3rd party,
    Stating it may be negative or positive is correct.

    Building a 1Mw pilot plant & placing it in a customers facilities makes a statement in itself.

    However, We also have to make the distinction that the 3rd party test is of the high temp E-cat & the pilot plant is of the Low temp E-cat. Tho according to Rossi, Both now use the Mouse/Cat setup.

  • the previous test were good enough for the people present, for the required due diligence.

    clearly given the current group delusion there is a need for opposable evidence.

    nb: My job is to understand to understand the difference between having evidence of a fact, and being able to convince a doubting third party, especially facing dishonest accusations.