Replication of the E-Cat

There has been some interesting discussion on various threads here over the last day or so on the subject of replication. The most recent E-Cat test has given us another piece of evidence about the operation of the E-Cat with new clues about what makes the reactor work and what might be behind the reactions taking place.

Bob Greenyer of the MFMP has made some interesting points regards replication, including the point that replication by outside entities could help with the patent application for the E-Cat, since one requirement for patent approval is that someone of normal skill in the art could build a device.

As far as bringing more attention to this technology, I don’t think that there will be anything that will help with that regard more than successful outside replication.

With this in mind, I have decided to make a permanent thread here on E-Cat World where comments on the subject can be kept in one place and that will not be buried over time where discussions about replication can take place. You’ll find it at the top right underneath the Always On Thread.

  • Jag Kaurah

    Great idea

  • Mr. Moho

    Can anybody confirm that Rossi or somebody else involved with the test actually said or wrote somewhere that the 52-pages report wasn’t really supposed to be released to the public because it contains critical information about the E-Cat’s inner workings? That could be a sort of codeword/unofficial way of implying that anybody who is able to is encouraged to replicate it ASAP so that Rossi/IH can more easily have their patent(s) granted (of course, they most likely did release it that way on purpose).

  • Daniel Maris

    To my mind, replication is not that important. IH is not a normal company in the sense of one seeking to maximise (as opposed to “make a”) profit. It is more an ethical vehicle to spread a low pollution, cheap form of energy around the globe. The patents are required more to ensure that there is sufficient capital to accelerate the spread initially and, also, to prevent others gaining patents ahead of IH and then suing E Cat (that would be a nice oil industry gambit wouldn’t it, so as to keep the industry small?)

    What is key is a convincing pilot installation or stage 1 marketisation.

    I am very pleased that Rossi has said the era of testing is over, since he seems to agree with that point.

  • Curbina

    I hope so, but I think that IH giving money to the MFMP would somehow void the “independent” replication.

  • Adam Lepczak

    I fully support the efforts. The MFMP is a natural candidate for it due to their know how. Also – it seems that the Ecat reactor is a very simple device. The replication “should” be easy.

  • Ged

    Thanks for this thread, Frank! Let me put up here what we’ve gathered across the threads as probably needed for the replication. Most is actually from MFMP analysis and conversations and Pekka:

    1. Micronized nickel powder, but not nano sized. Tubercal structures in the powder grain are essential. Site of the reaction.

    2. LiAlH, at about the tenth the mole fraction as nickel, from Pekka’s analysis. Acts as at least one source of hydrogen. Pre exposing the nickel micronized, tubercal powder to hydrogen to preload it to some stable state (stable in air) is probably the another source of hydrogen and easy to do. Works as part of the reaction and may be a partial catalyst. May even be a side, moderating reaction that keeps the main nickel reaction stable.

    3. Fe2O3 reduced and coating the micronized nickel. In fact, the tubercals may be heazily associated with the iron. Breaks apart molecular hydrogen, and participates in the reaction as a catalyst.

    4. Heating coils using inductive, not resistative heat to initiate and control reaction. Aligns nickel to proper geometry, heats via a skin resonance effect directly on the nickel reaction sites and not the wires, allows magetic stabilizing small currents in self sustained mode (maybe).

    5. TRIAC controller. Works with thermalcoupler input from reactor to control inductive heating and maintain reaction temps at favorable, controlled levels. Important for the physical alignment of the nickel reaction, the heating, and the magnetic stimulating pulses.

    Other than that, it uses an alumina body as that can survive the temps. The internal induction wires are likely tungston.

    Any more info, corrections, or ideas, please place below, such as powder preparation which is one of the most important aspects of the system.

    • Gerard McEk

      I do not believe that the coils inside induce inductive heat. Most probably the heat is mainly resistive, however I do not exclude the need for a magnetic field to initiate the CF effect. So the shape, coil diameter, number of turns and the current size and shape may be important. The frequencies are too low, nickel has little hysteresis, and eddy currents in micro grain require high frequencies are the reasons to doubt that induction will heat the nickel.

      • Ged

        That is very interesting feedback. Part of the reasons to believe it is inductive is that we see the shadows if the wires not the wires themselves glowing, AC is required like inductive but unlike resistive, and the temperatures we’re working at would destroy most resistive heaters but not inductive. Also since iron coats the micro particles, could it be participating in inductive heating?

        Interesting thoughts of yours. You can see the wire geometry in the shadow of the pictures too, if that helps your analysis.

        • Gerard McEk

          The shadow can be caused by:

          1. Better cooling of the outside of the 2 cm cylinder (larger surface). Heat of the resistive conductor flows perhaps easier through solid Aluminia than through air. Inside it is obviously hotter than the outside, or
          2. Better conductive properties of the resister material (Tungsten?) compared to the Inconel external leads.

          It would be interesting to ask the testers whether or not they inspected the controller and if so, if the controller is a unchanged commercial device or that it is self-made and possibly capable of generating high frequency pulse in the order of 100-2000 MHz. The quantity of iron in the total mass is so small that it is impossible to get it heated up via inductance. In fact, Now I think about it, that is probably also the case for the small total mass of 1 gram. It looks impossible to me that you can get hundreds of watts in this small quantity of powder via inductance.

          The relatively low ohmic resister causes in combination with the 230/440V AC supply relatively high short current pulses. This current shape and hight may actually be important for the CF effect. From electrical design point of view this is a very bad design, and if it would be used large scale, the grid supplier would not accept it, specially not in the US. It causes high losses in the grid (transformers and cabling.

          • Ged

            All good points. We’ll have to see via experimentation, ultimately. The MFMP should supply us with more data pretty soon on thus.

      • Bob Greenyer

        A high frequency (that would not have been seen by the PCE-830s) would be super imposed on the power AC before it is chopped and there is iron in the mix also.

        • does anyone have understood Rossi about his doped conductor ?
          Maybe he is using strange alloys deped so that the heating depend on the temperature so that it stabilise the reaction?

          we should understand what doped conductor are for in industry.
          his reactor seems to have been improved by experienced engineers…

          • Sanjeev

            According to the report , its Inconel, a high performance alloy which does not burn or sag at high temperature.

            A very good choice, which suggests that the engineers at IH know their stuff well.

  • Didn’t Bob say yesterday in another blog-post that they might receive a mix with lithium on monday?

    Then the first tests could start next week.

    Just a clear sign of excess heat and the topic is done 😉
    Then MFMP has to write a “tutorial” and send it to a few universities.

  • ecatworld

    This is basically a thread talking about the new thread. I would suggest moving discussion of replication to the permanent thread on the top right of the site.

    • Curbina

      Thanks, I had missed it.

  • Bernie777

    Where is Edmond Storms, we need his analysis of isotope mystery.

    • as I imagine he prepares a paper 😉

  • If they throw the paper into the paper bin, they should absolutely shut up and never say anything like “it’s not replicateable” without trying it. Other labs will do and disgrace them.

  • Chris I

    The requisite is not just “that someone of normal skill in the art could build a device” but that it be sufficient for them to read the patent and apply their skill according to it.

    IOW, if they need to “invent it again” i. e. fiddle and try until they guess the missing details, then they could well make their own patent application more properly (i. e. including those details) and beat the first applicant to it. This, regardless of whether the first dude had done it exactly equally or with some differences.

  • Fortyniner

    At the reactor temperatures used, and at atmospheric pressure, the lithium aluminium hydride will have decomposed (through some intermediate stages) into its constituent elements. Interestingly, this process is catalysed by iron, which was present in the ‘fuel’ mixture.

    The aluminium would have been molten (melting point 660C), and at the higher temperature (and greater output) the lithium would have been in vapour form (boiling point 1342C). I imagine that the alumina core was pretty poor containment, and quite a lot of hydrogen and lithium would have progressively been lost from the reaction area.

    I don’t know if any of this affects your theory, but it does seem that the chemical processes at least are pretty robust, and basically just need the ancillary elements to be present at a reasonable concentration, whether this is in liquid or vapour form.

  • Gerrit

    According to the report the fuel contained also Ca.

    In a study titled “Nitrogen Discharged from the Earth’s Interior Regions”

    there is written: “Therefore, we believe that Ca is the common driving element for nuclear transmutation.”

    Could be interesting for the replication effort.