Did Inverted Ammeter Clamp Cause Measurement Error in Lugano Test? (Joniale)

This comment was originally posted in this thread by Joniale

It seems there is an error in the ECAT report. Could somebody confirm this?

Please, see the comments of Mats in the following article

http://matslew.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/interview-on-radio-show-free-energy-quest-tonight/#comment-3604

Here a detailed explanation of the problem. If somebody with the knowledge can explain.

http://www.cobraf.com/forum/immagini/R_123566844_1.pdf

They are discussing about an inverted clamp that can cause the COP 3.
Please i need to know if this is destroying the report. 🙁

  • the many way to invert camps cannot be missed as the behavior of the power is illogical.
    some inversion swap active and reactive, some make it negative….

    not only it is part of classic checking, but also

    it is as stupid as saying that the car driver too a passenger seat by mistake and that this explain the accident.

    moreover Mats remind them that there is 2 powermeter who are coherent… even the curent waveforms.

    note that the increase of power from 800W to 900W is related to the temperature from 1250 to 1400.

    this argument is desperate…
    they should be ashamed to be so incompetent, and assuming that scientists were even more than they.

    It remind me Lewis and hansen who imagined that F&P had made student mistakes with stirring and recombination, while it was thei own incompetence which lead them to imagine that…

    • Bob Greenyer

      AlainCo,

      There is no need for speculation. Our intended dummy reactor will have a central heating element designed to reach at least 1425ºC or even 1800ºC. This can be done with single phase and most likely be our first test. It will be able to demonstrate what temperature a similar structure/mass/materials will reach given a defined power input. We could measure with IR cam and multiple high temperature thermocouples. Doing so would reveal the truth either way.

  • the many way to invert camps cannot be missed as the behavior of the power is illogical.
    some inversion swap active and reactive, some make it negative….

    not only it is part of classic checking, but also

    it is as stupid as saying that the car driver too a passenger seat by mistake and that this explain the accident.

    moreover Mats remind them that there is 2 powermeter who are coherent… even the curent waveforms.

    note that the increase of power from 800W to 900W is related to the temperature from 1250 to 1400.

    this argument is desperate…
    they should be ashamed to be so incompetent, and assuming that scientists were even more than they.

    It remind me Lewis and hansen who imagined that F&P had made student mistakes with stirring and recombination, while it was thei own incompetence which lead them to imagine that…

    • Bob Greenyer

      AlainCo,

      There is no need for speculation. Our intended dummy reactor will have a central heating element designed to reach at least 1425ºC or even 1800ºC. This can be done with single phase and most likely be our first test. It will be able to demonstrate what temperature a similar structure/mass/materials will reach given a defined power input. We could measure with IR cam and multiple high temperature thermocouples. Doing so would reveal the truth either way.

  • Pierre

    Anyone else with an opinion?

    • Andrew

      I dunno. Why don’t they put an electric smart meter before everything? You know the power company’s won’t let you get one watt for free…

    • Bob Greenyer

      Pierre,

      There is no need for speculation. Our intended dummy reactor will have a central heating element designed to reach at least 1425ºC or even 1800ºC. This can be done with single phase and most likely be our first test. It will be able to demonstrate what temperature a similar structure/mass/materials will reach given a defined power input. We could measure with IR cam and multiple high temperature thermocouples. Doing so would reveal the truth either way.

      • Freethinker

        Bob,

        And I do very much look forward to your experiments and replications attempt. I do very much wish you to be successful. You do have my whole hearted support on this.

        With that said, it will be your setup, and it will not be what the TIP used. So in lieu of your results, the report is what is at hand, and what is criticized, and will continue to be so if MFMP do not have a successful replication.

        So in that light, I agree, lets not speculate, lets dig into the numbers we have and with logic and reasoning, confront absurd counter-claims from skeptics, and understand those not so absurd, as to how they will really impact the result of the report.

        • Andreas Moraitis

          Does anybody know when the questions which have been posted at lenr forum will be submitted to the testers? It would certainly increase the acceptance of the report if they could rule out the potential problems. But they should have a chance to do it while the iron is hot.

          • DickeFix

            Giancarlo only points out that there is an rather obvious and important inconsistency in the report when it comes to input power. This is regardless of the output power or the fuel or what happens in the reactor

            If the measurement values in the report are correctly copied from the instruments, the inconsistency proves that either the power lines or the reactor coil or the measurement equipment have been changed between the dummy run and the active run.

            The most probable is that the measurement equipment was changed and not correctly setup either for the dummy or for the active reactor. Either the input power of the dummy was 3.3 times lower than measured and hence had a COP of around 3.3 or the input power of the active reactor was 3.3 times higher than measured and had a COP around 1. You decide what is most probable…

          • Freethinker

            “if the measurement values in the report are correctly copied from the
            instruments, the inconsistency proves that either the power lines or the
            reactor coil or the measurement equipment have been changed between the
            dummy run and the active run.”

            No it does not prove that. Again, the proportionality factor for the joule heating for the active reactor being applied to the dummy does not constitute “proof”, albeit a nice find. Like I said, turn it around and it may be a proxy for the COP, if you can wrap your head around the fact that the reactor works.

            The power consumption “clamp-gate” situation is way much more weaker as it is based on an image in the report to visualize the harmonics, without any time stamp, or other qualifying information where the data on the display is measured or the circumstance around it in terms of the function of the active reactor. Also OL should amount to some error messages in the data log.

            His evidence amount to basically nothing, more than a weak indication, and possibly something for the authors to clarify. Thats all.

          • Freethinker

            In spite your reconciliatory tone, you still push the narrative that there remains an “enigma”. It does not.

            Again there is no proof that any of those things you point at in any way is relevant to proving the ECAT not working. “Andrea.S” analysis is based on one photograph in the report on which he draw conclusions he cannot do. The analysis itself appear to be in order as such – I leave that verdict to those who know that instrument and the control-box better than me – but it is still so that there is nothing supporting the fact that it has any impact on the result. You do not know the situation of the picture, and constantly ignore the fact that if this was a prevalent situation it would be noticed due either errors in the data log, or the testers would be alerted to the situation when reviewing the other PCE-830.

            Again you push the proportionality of the joule heating. As enticing as this is for you as a convinced skeptic, there is a huge hole in your reasoning as you have no idea what is going on in the reactor, and how that would affect the impedance of the Inconel coil, or any other effect the reactions in core could impose on the Inconel wire.

            Yet you pretend as these counter arguments are nothing and maintain your narrative.

            And No. The COP values would not be garbage if one take into account the non Real domain, nor would it make the lack of major change in joule heat ratio for the active reactor, when increasing in power, inconsistent. As you joggle apples and bananas here, it may seem so to you, but it is not. You need to separate the dummy run from the active run in this context.

            I see nothing that changes the outcome of the report, in your and “Andrea.S” reasoning or so called “proofs”.

            But by all means. I am not the Ultimate Arbiter of the Universe on these matters. Maybe you should take it to the next level. Why don’t you and Andrea.S. contact Levi, Essén or any of the others. Send them an email.

            Who nows, maybe they will respond.

          • Ophelia Rump

            You seem to know a lot about power calculations you should see the
            Bob Greenyer comment below, and help him perform the simple calculation which will prove if there was a measurement error.
            When you have the calculation, it will settle the matter for once and for all.
            Otherwise, this bubblegum has lost it’s flavor.

            His comment starts with”Ophelia, the researchers used the stefan-boltzman law for the bulk of the power output calculation, which is the right thing to use. . .

          • Ophelia Rump

            I do not believe that is the normal channel for science.
            Perhaps we should not be so eager to open the actual inner workings of science to internet chat rooms. If a scientist finds anything worth mentioning in their opinion they can bring it forward themselves. If I were a tester I would not allow myself to be baited into a public debate with internet trolls. No good can come of it.

            Look what happened when those four professors took the low road on Ny Teknik.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            It is indeed not the normal channel, but if the usual routes are blocked, looking for alternatives might be more effective than waiting until times are better. Besides, the possible implications of this test reach far beyond science. The testers made their generous offer without having been forced to do that. However, I don’t know if they have considered that they are now forced to answer. They could certainly not refer to confidentiality, as Rossi often (legitimately) does.

          • Freethinker

            “Please note, I don´t claim that the inconcistency that Giancarlo found is a proof that the E-Cat doesn´t work.”

            😀 mots people in this forum are able to read. You have fooled nobody.

            In Edit: In all fairness. I thank you for bringing the Joule heating discussion to my attention. That you did well. Nice find.

          • DickeFix

            Thank you! I want again point out that it was not my find but Giancarlos on Mats Lewans blog. He discovered this inconsistency in the paper that both the research group and the reviewers of the paper overlooked. But I still feel proud and honored for being the first to have brought this important find to your attention. 🙂

            Lets hope we soon get a response and explanation from the research team.

  • Pierre

    Anyone else with an opinion?

    • Andrew

      I dunno. Why don’t they put an electric smart meter before everything? You know the power company’s won’t let you get one watt for free…

    • Bob Greenyer

      Pierre,

      There is no need for speculation. Our intended dummy reactor will have a central heating element designed to reach at least 1425ºC or even 1800ºC. This can be done with single phase and most likely be our first test. It will be able to demonstrate what temperature a similar structure/mass/materials will reach given a defined power input. We could measure with IR cam and multiple high temperature thermocouples. Doing so would reveal the truth either way.

      • Freethinker

        Bob,

        I do very much look forward to your experiments and replications attempt. I do very much wish you to be successful. You do have my whole hearted support on this.

        With that said, it will be your setup, and it will not be what the TIP used. So in lieu of your results, the report is what is at hand, and what is criticized, and will continue to be so if MFMP do not have a successful replication.

        So in that light, I agree, lets not speculate, lets dig into the numbers we have and with logic and reasoning, confront absurd counter-claims from skeptics, and understand those not so absurd, as to how they will really impact the result of the report.

  • Matt Sevrens

    I too would like to see this resolved

  • Manuel Cruz

    A mistake of such caliber would have been detected during the dummy test run, I believe.

  • Manuel Cruz

    A mistake of such caliber would have been detected during the dummy test run, I believe.

  • Freethinker

    There have been some debate on that particular snapshot in swedish fora.

    My take is, and has been following the flow in those fora, that the OL is indicative to something not realistic regarding the photo itself. I do not know, because I do not own a PCE-830, nor was the manual or the eminent skeptic commenter able to, give information on what to expect in the data log if you see “OL” in the display of the instrument.

    1. The data log should contain error messages, indicate unreliable data.
    2. The first PCE-830 should clearly show a diff to the of the second, and this should alert the testers.
    3. The dummy setup seem not to be criticized, but if that one worked, why would there be such a problem for the active run?
    4. There is nothing qualifying the image used more than it is intended to show harmonics and waveform. Even if that would be sloppy, it is not impossible that the PCE-830 was hooked up (at any old time) to just take that picture, at the end of it all, or even before they begun.

    I cannot be completely certain however, so some info from the authors would be good to settle this. In lack of such info, I still don’t think this nullify the overall claims in the report.

    • Sanjeev

      0L may simply mean that the probe is disconnected or the phase is disconnected or no current is flowing there.
      Note that the line frequency is also 0 Hz, so I guess its not connected.

      The graph should show 3 peaks, but we see only 2.

  • Freethinker

    There have been some debate on that particular snapshot in swedish fora.

    My take is, and has been following the flow in those fora, that the OL is indicative to something not realistic regarding the photo itself. I do not know, because I do not own a PCE-830, nor was the manual or the eminent skeptic commenter able to, give information on what to expect in the data log if you see “OL” in the display of the instrument.

    1. The data log should contain error messages, indicate unreliable data.
    2. The first PCE-830 should clearly show a diff to the of the second, and this should alert the testers.
    3. The dummy setup seem not to be criticized, but if that one worked, why would there be such a problem for the active run?
    4. There is nothing qualifying the image used more than it is intended to show harmonics and waveform. Even if that would be sloppy, it is not impossible that the PCE-830 was hooked up (at any old time) to just take that picture, at the end of it all, or even before they begun.

    I cannot be completely certain however, so some info from the authors would be good to settle this. In lack of such info, I still don’t think this nullify the overall claims in the report.

    • Sanjeev

      0L may simply mean that the probe is disconnected or the phase is disconnected or no current is flowing there.
      Note that the line frequency is also 0 Hz, so I guess its not connected.

      The graph should show 3 peaks, but we see only 2.

  • Sanjeev

    Here is the PCE 830 manual :
    http://www.industrial-needs.com/manual/power-anlayser-pce-830.pdf

    It does say that the clamp must be connected so that the current flows from front to back of it.
    I do not know for sure, but if reversed, it may measure the current as negative and will deduct that current from the total, thus measuring 1/3 of actual total current if all 3 phases have same amount of current flowing in them. This will make the input power also 1/3 and so the COP of 3.

    Note that the dummy test will also show a COP of 3, which did not happen. They got a COP of 1 in the dummy test. Now it can happen that in live test one of the probe got reversed, but chances of it happening are very low and chances of it happening for both the PCEs are very very low. Whether the connections were disturbed before live test can be confirmed by the team or if they recorded the footage, it will show any possible re-connections being done at that time.

    Note that this kind of error will always produce a COP of 3, not 5 or 10 or 100. Its impossible that IH did all their tests with one clamp reversed ! And never wondered why they always get a COP of 3, no matter what they do. It will give a COP of 3 even with a simple metal tube, no need of fuels or catalysts.

    I’m not sure if the PCE is supposed to put a minus sign before the current if the clamp is reversed, but this can be checked easily. We many ask for more pictures of the setup, perhaps one of them will show the clamps during live run.

    • Ophelia Rump

      They noted that there was a non-linear relationship between the input and output.
      This shoots down the consistent false COP of 3 theory.
      Also note that the COP was probably not ever precisely 3.

      ” The measured energy balance between input and output heat
      yielded a COP factor of about 3.2 and 3.6 for the 1260 ºC and 1400 ºC runs, respectively.”

      “After this initial period, we noticed that the feedback system had gradually cut back the input current, which
      was yielding about 790 W. We therefore decided to increase the power, and set it slightly above 900 W.
      Thereby, we also obtained an important second measurement point. In a few minutes, the reactor body
      reached a temperature close to 1400°C. Subsequent calculation proved that increasing the input by roughly
      100 watts had caused an increase of about 700 watts in power emitted. The speed with which the
      temperature had risen persuaded us to desist from any further attempt to increase the power input to the
      reactor. As we had no way of substituting the device in case of breakage or melting of internal parts, we
      decided to exercise caution and continue operating the reactor at ca. 900 W.”

      • Bob Greenyer

        Ophelia, the researchers used the stefan-boltzman law for the bulk of the power output calculation, which is the right thing to use

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan–Boltzmann_law

        this is where power is calculated as a 4th exponent of temperature. If the power input is miscalculated then it has a very non-linear effect on the calculated output. Some variation on this will be due to the Joule heating losses calculated for the wires.

        Our planned dummy reactor, which is intended to have a central heating element that can go to 1800ºC will be able to test the thermal response of an equivalent structure, made of largely equivalent material, with IR and direct thermocouple measurement.

        This would be our first experiment and will show what power has to be put in to reach a certain temperature.

        • Freethinker

          There are two observables here of significance. That is power in (Pin) and the temperature (T). The function T(Pin) is unknown – basically the ground for much of this discussion. So your ambition is in my eyes is very good.

          When it comes to the report, look at the input for the dummy to reach the temperature they get. Then extrapolate what input is required to get 1400C. As it is not very anchored in the reality, it still server as a check that there is needed an unreasonable amount of power in to achieve that temperature in the reactor, if it behaved like the dummy – i.e. not being an active reactor.

          I did some simple calculations on this in a comment a few days ago:

          e= emissivity; s=Boltzman’s constant, T= temperature [K]
          0=Ambient values;
          1=Our sought for values at 900 W
          2=Dummy values in report

          The power out is
          M= e * s * T^4 *A

          If we ask the question what temperature would 900W in input power give us, if it was a dummy – and not charge reactor (note dividing them cause s and A to disappear:

          M1/M2=(e1*T1^4 – T0^4*e0) / e2*T1^4 – T0^4*e0)

          Using that we know that for the dummy we got 183 W (table 3) giving a temp of less than 450C on average (good enough for a sanity check). The in power in this case was 486 W.

          Assuming we use 900 W into the dummy, and assume the ratio between radiated power to input power is that same in both cases, as we would assume a linear relationship between power in and power out, one could estimate what the temperature could be in the 900 W case:

          T1=[ ((M1/M2*e2*T2^4 – T0^4*) + T0^4*) / ] ^(¼)

          Where
          e0=0.64 T0= 293.16K
          e2=0.65 T2=723.16 K
          e1=0.50 (assumed as we don’t yet know the temperature)
          M1=900W and M2=486W

          Note that we do not need to involve the computed out powers here as we have a linear relationship between know power in and power out for the dummy with a known slope, and the assumption – if just being a dummy – we would have the same slope at the higher input and higher temperature. As we divide the two computed output powers in this exercise, the slope constant is canceled out and we simple need to use the input powers

          We would get a

          T1 = ((((900/486)*0.65*723.16^4 – 0.64*293.16^4) + 0.64*293.16^4)/0.50)^(¼) = 900K = 628C

          whereas with a loaded reactor we get 1400C.

          Still, it is clear, by looking simply at the radiated power, that there is way
          much more power generated in the charged reactor case compared to a
          dummy equivalent.

          Exercising the formula above and try to get 1400C, it is evident that there is some serious power in that is required for the dummy to get there.

          No, I know that this is a simple calculation, leaving out a whole lot. BUT is still an indication that pretending that the reactor is but a dummy, is wrong.

          My 25 cent. Any comment on this is welcome, as I, like the rest of you, don’t have the ulitmate answers, but is still search for those 🙂

        • Ophelia Rump

          That is excellent news for anyone interested in proving the test flawed.
          It should be a simple matter of applying the equation to show that a 100 Watt input increase would produce a 700 Watt output increase at that particular set of values.

          Produce the calculations and we can talk.

      • Omega Z

        Ophelia

        I was curious about this also. They have extra parts.
        Having given it some thought, I have an explanation.

        If it breaks or melts down, they “Don’t” have additional Nickel powder. Test can not continue.

        • Freethinker

          😀

          No, that is what YOU get with YOUR reasoning which is flawed as it is based on unreasonable confidence in an analysis based on information with a large number of unknown parameters and conjecture.

          I do not subscribe to your conclusion.

          The only change between the dummy run and the active run was the entering of the fuel and putting the reactor under power again. This is also how it is described in the report.

          • Mats001

            +10

          • Sanjeev

            I must say very good job by DickeFix and others, there is indeed a strangeness in data regarding the joule heating part. Still it does not completely debunk the report IMHO.

            Assuming everything remains the same during the dummy and active tests except the addition of the fuel, the joule heating part should remain consistent, as we expect the same amount of current to flow through the resistors for a given setting of the triac. Unfortunately we do not have one to one correspondence, as the dummy was tested well below the Ecat’s operating temperatures. But we can extrapolate and we find that the current actually reduces when the fuel is in……..

            And that all we can say rationally from the limited data there is. The claims that they measured it wrong or clamps were inverted are mere speculations. The current can be reduced due to many factors, even due to the secret catalyst.(a speculation on my part).

            They should have tested the dummy at operating temperatures but could not as there was only one tube. They spent about 6 months in testing, studying and writing the report, yet they could not ask for a simple spare alumina tube from the billionaires IH ? How much would it cost or how much time would it take ? I will let the authors answer that.

            Anyway, I want to ask DickeFix and others two questions:

            1] How does the inverted clamp theory explain the transmutations ? Can Ni be transmuted simply by inverter an ammeter clamp ;-)?

            2] Fig 12, page 25 shows that most of the heat is coming from the red hot alumina tube not from the resistors. The resistors and actually so cold compared to the tube that they cast a shadow. We would expect that if there are no reactions taking place in the tube, the parts where resistors are should glow brightly forming a spiral of red glow along the tube. But we see the reverse. So how does inverted clamp explain this extraordinary fact ?

            If you can explain it successfully, we can close the Ecat file and go home. However, it will take a solid analysis by the testers to prove it completely. I hope they (and Rossi/IH) are listening. Ball is in their court now.

          • Omega Z

            Sanjeev
            #2 The resistors appear cooler then the reactor.

            The 1st 3rd party test, AND the 2nd 3rd party test produce the same unexplained phenomenon. The resistors appear cooler then the reactor.
            They couldn’t provide a valid answer the 1st time. I don’t expect then to this time.

          • Freethinker

            Everyone to their own opinions,

            “Still it does not completely debunk the report IMHO.”

            I’d say they are still a far way from debunking anything. The image of the PCE-830 was a sloppy thing, clearly, and clarification from the authors would be good, but it does not nullify the outcome.

            But the joule heating, as the clamping in my mind is a bogus issue, is in itself an interesting artifact from what goes on in the reactor core.

        • Ophelia Rump

          Yes, that was my conclusion. Rossi is still guarding the powder like a dragon an a Faberge egg. .

  • Sanjeev

    Here is the PCE 830 manual :
    http://www.industrial-needs.com/manual/power-anlayser-pce-830.pdf

    It does say that the clamp must be connected so that the current flows from front to back of it.
    I do not know for sure, but if reversed, it may measure the current as negative and will deduct that current from the total, thus measuring 1/3 of actual total current if all 3 phases have same amount of current flowing in them. This will make the input power also 1/3 and so the COP of 3.

    Note that the dummy test will also show a COP of 3, which did not happen. They got a COP of 1 in the dummy test. Now it can happen that in live test one of the probe got reversed, but chances of it happening are very low and chances of it happening for both the PCEs are very very low. Whether the connections were disturbed before live test can be confirmed by the team or if they recorded the footage, it will show any possible re-connections being done at that time.

    Note that this kind of error will always produce a COP of 3, not 5 or 10 or 100. Its impossible that IH did all their tests with one clamp reversed ! And never wondered why they always get a COP of 3, no matter what they do. It will give a COP of 3 even with a simple metal tube, no need of fuels or catalysts.

    I’m not sure if the PCE is supposed to put a minus sign before the current if the clamp is reversed, but this can be checked easily. We many ask for more pictures of the setup, perhaps one of them will show the clamps during live run.

    • Ophelia Rump

      They noted that there was a non-linear relationship between the input and output.
      This shoots down the consistent false COP of 3 theory.
      Also note that the COP was probably not ever precisely 3.

      ” The measured energy balance between input and output heat
      yielded a COP factor of about 3.2 and 3.6 for the 1260 ºC and 1400 ºC runs, respectively.”

      “After this initial period, we noticed that the feedback system had gradually cut back the input current, which
      was yielding about 790 W. We therefore decided to increase the power, and set it slightly above 900 W.
      Thereby, we also obtained an important second measurement point. In a few minutes, the reactor body
      reached a temperature close to 1400°C. Subsequent calculation proved that increasing the input by roughly
      100 watts had caused an increase of about 700 watts in power emitted. The speed with which the
      temperature had risen persuaded us to desist from any further attempt to increase the power input to the
      reactor. As we had no way of substituting the device in case of breakage or melting of internal parts, we
      decided to exercise caution and continue operating the reactor at ca. 900 W.”

      The last part does bother me though, Rossi has said that they supplied enough parts to assemble three reactors.

      • Bob Greenyer

        Ophelia, the researchers used the stefan-boltzman law for the bulk of the power output calculation, which is the right thing to use

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stefan–Boltzmann_law

        this is where power is calculated as a 4th exponent of temperature. If the power input is miscalculated then it has a very non-linear effect on the calculated output. Some variation on this will be due to the Joule heating losses calculated for the wires.

        Our planned dummy reactor, which is intended to have a central heating element that can go to 1800ºC will be able to test the thermal response of an equivalent structure, made of largely equivalent material, with IR and direct thermocouple measurement.

        This would be our first experiment and will show what power has to be put in to reach a certain temperature.

        • Freethinker

          There are two observables here of significance. That is power in (Pin) and the temperature (T). The function T(Pin) is unknown – basically the ground for much of this discussion. So your ambition, in my eyes, is very good.

          When it comes to the report, look at the input for the dummy to reach the temperature they get. Then extrapolate what input is required to get 1400C. As it is not very anchored in the reality, it still server as a check that there is needed an unreasonable amount of power in to achieve that temperature in the reactor, if it behaved like the dummy – i.e. not being an active reactor.

          I did some simple calculations on this in a comment a few days ago:

          e= emissivity; s=Boltzman’s constant, T= temperature [K]
          0=Ambient values;
          1=Our sought for values at 900 W
          2=Dummy values in report

          The power out is
          M= e * s * T^4 *A

          If we ask the question what temperature would 900W in input power give us, if it was a dummy – and not charge reactor (note dividing them cause s and A to disappear:

          M1/M2=(e1*T1^4 – T0^4*e0) / e2*T1^4 – T0^4*e0)

          Using that we know that for the dummy we got 183 W (table 3) giving a temp of less than 450C on average (good enough for a sanity check). The in power in this case was 486 W.

          Assuming we use 900 W into the dummy, and assume the ratio between radiated power to input power is that same in both cases, as we would assume a linear relationship between power in and power out, one could estimate what the temperature could be in the 900 W case:

          T1=[ ((M1/M2*e2*T2^4 – T0^4*) + T0^4*) / ] ^(¼)

          Where
          e0=0.64 T0= 293.16K
          e2=0.65 T2=723.16 K
          e1=0.50 (assumed as we don’t yet know the temperature)
          M1=900W and M2=486W

          Note that we do not need to involve the computed out powers here as we have a linear relationship between know power in and power out for the dummy with a known slope, and the assumption – if just being a dummy – we would have the same slope at the higher input and higher temperature. As we divide the two computed output powers in this exercise, the slope constant is canceled out and we simple need to use the input powers

          We would get a

          T1 = ((((900/486)*0.65*723.16^4 – 0.64*293.16^4) + 0.64*293.16^4)/0.50)^(¼) = 900K = 628C

          whereas with a loaded reactor we get 1400C.

          Still, it is clear, by looking simply at the radiated power, that there is way
          much more power generated in the charged reactor case compared to a
          dummy equivalent.

          Exercising the formula above and try to get 1400C, it is evident that there is some serious power in that is required for the dummy to get there.

          No, I know that this is a simple calculation, leaving out a whole lot. BUT is still an indication that pretending that the reactor is but a dummy, is wrong.

          My 25 cent. Any comment on this is welcome, as I, like the rest of you, don’t have the ultimate answers, but is still in search for those 🙂

        • Ophelia Rump

          That is excellent news for anyone interested in proving the test flawed.
          It should be a simple matter of applying the equation to show that a 100 Watt input increase would produce a 700 Watt output increase at that particular set of values.

          Produce the calculations and we can talk.

      • Omega Z

        Ophelia

        I was curious about this also. They have extra parts.
        Having given it some thought, I have an explanation.

        If it breaks or melts down, they “Don’t” have additional Nickel powder. Test can not continue.

        • Ophelia Rump

          Yes, that was my conclusion. Rossi is still guarding the powder like a dragon an a Faberge egg. .

  • Mats002

    My understanding of this issue is that the root cause is a picture in the report where one instrument shows 0L. Nothing is said when or at what measurment the picture is taken. Could be a setup after the testperiod for getting a picture for the report or that instrument was just not part of the setup at that moment. Anyhow, I would like to see a comment about the picture from the authors.

    • Ophelia Rump

      If I were the authors I would ignore it unless it were presented as a formal objection to the paper. I do not know if it is or is not.

  • Mats002

    My understanding of this issue is that the root cause is a picture in the report where one instrument shows 0L. Nothing is said when or at what measurment the picture is taken. Could be a setup after the testperiod for getting a picture for the report or that instrument was just not part of the setup at that moment. Anyhow, I would like to see a comment about the picture from the authors.

    • Ophelia Rump

      If I were the authors I would ignore it unless it were presented as a formal objection to the paper. I do not know if it is or is not.

      I certainly would not be baited into dealing with internet trolls like those four who chased Phaeton Rudegar.

  • bachcole

    My opinion: trivial, pathetic, and pointless. I really don’t think that the professors are incompetent. I thought that we already decided that that was not the case.

  • DickeFix

    Note, regardless of the cause, Giancarlo points out on Mats Lewans blog an important inconsistency in the report :

    The power consumption of the entire reactor should be proportional to the Joule heating in the cables as long as the reactor coil has a temperature independent resistance. This is because it is the same total current through all elements, see figure 4.

    In the report in table 7 (p. 22) with the active reactor the power consumption (column 2) is indeed proportional to Joule heating (column 7). The proportionality factor was 21.68 at 1260 degrees and 21.86 at 1400 degrees. This proves that the temperature dependence of the coil resistance is negligible.

    For the dummy run the total Joule dissipation was 6.7W (p.14, Eq. 11). From above we would expect that the power consumption should be around 21.7*6.7W=145.4W. However the actual measured power was 486W (p. 20), i.e. 3.34 times more. If we assume that the measured power consumption of the dummy is correct, it means that the measured power consumption of the active reactor is 3.34 times too low and hence the estimated COP is 3.34 times too high.

    The reason for this could be Andrea.S theory of reversed clamps, OL indication or something else.

    • Freethinker

      No doubt this is enticing to the skeptics, as the value so readily land on the “correct” number. It neatly explains everything.

      But you use the joule heating propotionality factor for the active reactor pumping 3 times more energy out than what goes in, then you use this proportionality factor for the dummy to indicate that the dummy in fact also had 3 times more power in that out, where it is shown that it did not.

      Just consider this. The joule heating is not oblivious to the Imaginary parts of the impedance. There is some serious things going on in the reactor that could influence the reactive load.

      Maybe you should try to see it the other way around. You have just found another proxy for the COP.

      • DickeFix

        I agree, but this concerns only the real part of the load. What you maybe want to say is that the power meter gives wrong values when the load is reactive and that the error changes when the reactive part increases. If that would be the case, the COP values would be garbage. It would also not explain why the readings were consistent when the active E-Cat was run and the input power increased.

        I am also disappointed if this turns out to be the explanation to the observed excess heat. The enigma that remains is then why the measurement setup was changed between the dummy run and the active run, how was it changed (maybe as Andrea.S suggests by reversing one or two clamp meters), who did it, and why was it not discovered if there was continuous monitoring of the signals.

        • Freethinker

          In spite your reconciliatory tone, you still push the narrative that there remains an “enigma”. It does not.

          Again there is no proof that any of those things you point at in any way is relevant to proving the ECAT not working. “Andrea.S” analysis is based on one photograph in the report on which he draw conclusions he cannot do. The analysis itself appear to be in order as such – I leave that verdict to those who know that instrument and the control-box better than me – but it is still so that there is nothing supporting the fact that it has any impact on the result. You do not know the situation of the picture, and constantly ignore the fact that if this was a prevalent situation it would be noticed due either errors in the data log, or the testers would be alerted to the situation when reviewing the other PCE-830.

          Again you push the proportionality of the joule heating. As enticing as this is for you as a convinced skeptic, there is a huge hole in your reasoning as you have no idea what is going on in the reactor, and how that would affect the impedance of the Inconel coil, or any other effect the reactions in core could impose on the Inconel wire.

          Yet you pretend as these counter arguments are nothing and maintain your narrative.

          And No. The COP values would not be garbage if one take into account the non Real domain, nor would it make the lack of major change in joule heat ratio for the active reactor, when increasing in power, inconsistent. As you joggle apples and bananas here, it may seem so to you, but it is not. You need to separate the dummy run from the active run in this context.

          I see nothing that changes the outcome of the report, in your and “Andrea.S” reasoning or so called “proofs”.

          But by all means. I am not the Ultimate Arbiter of the Universe on these matters. Maybe you should take it to the next level. Why don’t you and Andrea.S. contact Levi, Essén or any of the others. Send them an email.

          Who nows, maybe they will respond.

          • DickeFix

            Please note, I don´t claim that the inconcistency that Giancarlo found is a proof that the E-Cat doesn´t work. It only indicates either the input power to the dummy or input power to the active reactor are wrong. How can otherwise the Joule heating increase from less than 7W for the dummy to above 40W for the active E-Cat (almost six times) if the input power only increases from 485W to 910W (less than two times)?

          • Freethinker

            “Please note, I don´t claim that the inconcistency that Giancarlo found is a proof that the E-Cat doesn´t work.”

            😀 mots people in this forum are able to read. You have fooled nobody.

            In Edit: In all fairness. I thank you for bringing the Joule heating discussion to my attention. That you did well. Nice find.

          • DickeFix

            Thank you! I want again point out that it was not my find but Giancarlos on Mats Lewans blog. He discovered this inconsistency in the paper that both the research group and the reviewers of the paper overlooked. But I still feel proud and honored for being the first to have brought this important find to your attention. 🙂

            Lets hope we soon get a response and explanation from the research team.

    • Ophelia Rump

      So you propose three reasons the test is could be invalid in the same way.
      1 Reversed clamps.
      2 OL indicator showing no input to device in photo displaying wave form.
      3 Generalized anxiety.(Other)

      I will sip my coffee and consider this. . .
      I would expect at a range of 600 to 900 percent output if you were correct.
      Or would the values be multiplied rather than additive?
      Nyet!

    • DickeFix

      Giancarlo only points out that there is an rather obvious and important inconsistency in the report when it comes to input power. This is regardless of the output power or the fuel or what happens in the reactor

      If the measurement values in the report are correctly copied from the instruments, the inconsistency proves that either the power lines or the reactor coil or the measurement equipment have been changed between the dummy run and the active run.

      The most probable is that the measurement equipment was changed and not correctly setup either for the dummy or for the active reactor. Either the input power of the dummy was 3.3 times lower than measured and hence had a COP of around 3.3 or the input power of the active reactor was 3.3 times higher than measured and had a COP around 1. You decide what is most probable…

      • Freethinker

        “if the measurement values in the report are correctly copied from the
        instruments, the inconsistency proves that either the power lines or the
        reactor coil or the measurement equipment have been changed between the
        dummy run and the active run.”

        No it does not prove that. Again, the proportionality factor for the joule heating for the active reactor being applied to the dummy does not constitute “proof”, albeit a nice find. Like I said, turn it around and it may be a proxy for the COP, if you can wrap your head around the fact that the reactor works.

        The power consumption “clamp-gate” situation is way much more weaker as it is based on an image in the report to visualize the harmonics, without any time stamp, or other qualifying information where the data on the display is measured or the circumstance around it in terms of the function of the active reactor. Also OL should amount to some error messages in the data log.

        His evidence amount to basically nothing, more than a weak indication, and possibly something for the authors to clarify. Thats all.

        • DickeFix

          What do you mean? If we assume the reactor works and hence the measurement of input power and output power is correct in both the dummy and active test, the only explanation that I can think of is that either the cables or reactor heating elements were switched between the dummy test and real test. I don´t think that is a likely explanation…

          • Freethinker

            😀

            No, that is what YOU get with YOUR reasoning which is flawed as it is based on unreasonable confidence in an analysis based on information with a large number of unknown parameters and conjecture.

            I do not subscribe to your conclusion.

            The only change between the dummy run and the active run was the entering of the fuel and putting the reactor under power again. This is also how it is described in the report.

          • Mats001

            +10

          • DickeFix

            Then YOU need to explain to me why the Joule heating increases from less than 7W for the dummy to above 40W for
            the active E-Cat (almost six times) when the total input power only increases
            from 485W to 910W (less than two times). How can you have such a large nonlinearity from 485W to 910W and no nonlinearity at all when you increase from 800W to 910W?

          • Freethinker

            You are indeed a funny guy. 😀

            I need not explain anything to you.

            I can not authoritatively say anything about that, and you know this, as this is related to the reactor core, and is not so very well described in the report. It may also be considered outside the scope of treating the reactor as a black box.

            You simply fail to realize that you have a completely different situation when in active mode as compared to the dummy mode. You have a novel nuclear process in a blob of Ni powder at some 1260-1400C in a magnetic field, with Inconel wires being the coil heating and feeding this, having whatever characteristic it has due to doping (which is unknown). Rossi has stated that the Inconel wiring should not be regarded trivially, as it is an integral part of the reactor, and it has a non-linear behavior.

            You see the effect of non-linear behavior in the dummy mode transiting to active mode as the fuel is entered and the reactions started. So I repeat, you do NOT have the same reactor environment in the dummy mode as you have in the active reactor. Hence your comparisons of the joule heating between the two completely different contexts is not a viable comparison.

            Forget your apple and banana joggle. It does not fly.

            Again, to get those in depth answer you so badly desire, why don’t you send them an email and ask them. On this particular matter you might be stonewalled, as I think it is too close to IP matters. But the again, who knows? They just might respond.

          • DickeFix

            So you mean that what happens inside the reactor will affect the heating coils around the reactor so they decrease their resistance and this interaction is not via temperature!!??? Do you think the reactor coils are instantly transmuted into highly conductive silver by radiation of some strange invisible neutrons that can not be detected from outside or what? You try to use miracles to explain miracles whereas I try my best to find a natural explanation.

            I have been openminded about the E-Cat from the start and was excited about the test when it was published but I admit that I have almost lost all hope now. I will wait for the response from the research team but if it turns out that Giancarlo and Andrea S. are correct the COP of the E-Cat will be close to 1…

          • Freethinker

            Your claimed openess and positive anticipation, we can leave behind. I do not buy it.

            No, you are looking for the mistake or fraud that may be implied.

            Again, the clamp claims does not hold merit even if the excersise made by Andrea.S by itself may not be wrong. Again all is based on a single image in the report that has the purpose of describing the harmonics and signal and may have been taken at any moment in the process, prior or even after the run. Also, the OL error indicated in all field suggest that it isn’t in a live situation as it should have been obvious from the data log that something was very wrong. Not easy to compute the COP if consumed power is “NaN”.

            Your comparison between the dummy and the active reactor for joule heating does not hold merit in the line of argument you are using it. Possibly, though, you found a proxy for the COP itself.

            And no, they are not correct, and the COP is still 3.

          • DickeFix

            Well, I promise you that my agenda is not to prove fraud or trickery even if I don´t rule it out as one of several possibilities. I think it is very prematurely to judge in any direction at the moment. Rossi has worked on the E-Cat a large part of his life and Levi and Focardi have devoted their research carreer to LENR research. I think it is hard to devote so much of your limited lifetime on a subject, unless you really believe in it. If it would turn out that the E-Cat is a dead end, it would be a catastrophy for Rossi, not only economically but also personally. When it is so large personal stakes involved, it is only natural and human that there then may be temptations to postpone the disaster even if the original objective was honest.

            I am interested in the E-Cat like everyone else here because its a fascinating story and if it would be true, it would have such a large impact on society. I think one should always be humble and openminded as a researcher while preserving an healthy scepticism. It is true that extraordinary claims need extraordinary proofs. However, it is equally true that one should not give up research that potentially can have immense importance for mankind as long as there is a miniscule possibility of success.

          • Timar

            Nothing of the above.

            There is a really simple answer to your objections consistent with other observations (the inconel wires appearing as dark shades against the incandescent core): There is a significant component of inductive heating. Of course, induction doesn’t take place when the reactor core is an empty aluminum tube in the dummy run. There you have your “miracle”.

          • DickeFix

            You mean that the resistive part of the equivalent reactor impedance seen from the power lines will change and be very small when there is no fuel in the reactor and much larger when there is fuel in the reactor. I find it hard to believe that the fuel should have such large effect on the reactor impedance. Anyway, even if it was true it would lead to less efficient heating of the dummy reactor and more efficient heating of the active reactor (compared to the Joule heating in the cables). One needs the opposite effect to explain the measured results.

          • Freethinker

            And here you are again with your apples and bananas…

          • Timar

            Why do you think it would be more efficient for the active reactor? This is another big assumption (freethinker is spot on when he says that your cirtique stems from simplistic assumptions). You don’t know how efficient the inductive heating component is. It may be terribly inefficient but necessary to initiate the LENR reaction.

          • DickeFix

            If you want to defend the measurements in the report and explain the inconcistency Giancarlos pointed out, you need to find a mechanism that makes the resistive part of the reactor impedance drop more than three times between the dummy run and the active reactor run but be virtually constant when the temperature was increased in the active run.

            Have you really tried to understand the inconsistancy we discuss or do you consider basic electric circuit theory a “simplistic assumption” that is no longer valid if LENR is real?

          • Timar

            You don’t get my point. The resistive impedance drops because most of the heating in the active run is inductive. The temperature of the the wires may actually have been lower during the active run (hence they appear as dark shades against the core).

          • Mark Szl

            Exactly! That is what a “non-treatment” control group is for. In this case “dummy” = “non-treatment”. Even so there are things to look for when doing this. Blinding for instance but a common error with non-treatment groups versus treatment groups is they fail to be the same and an indicator is their start values are statistically different. In other words, a base-line mismatch. So here there would have to be some significant mismatch between the dummy run versus the real run besides the composition of the materials required for the LENR process. If there is not then this argument about a *possible* error in connecting the measurement device has big problems.

      • Ophelia Rump

        You seem to know a lot about power calculations you should see the
        Bob Greenyer comment below, and help him perform the simple calculation which will prove if there was a measurement error.
        When you have the calculation, it will settle the matter for once and for all.
        Otherwise, this bubblegum has lost it’s flavor.

        His comment starts with”Ophelia, the researchers used the stefan-boltzman law for the bulk of the power output calculation, which is the right thing to use. . .

        • DickeFix

          The comment you refer to states “If the power input is miscalculated then it has a very non-linear effect on the calculated output”. This does not apply here. Both the input power and the output power are measured INDEPENDENTLY in this case and COP calculated. The input power is measured with the three phase power meters and the output power by measuring the temperature with an IR-camera and calculating the power loss due to radiation (via Stefan-Boltzman law) and convection. If any of these measurements is wrong, the COP becomes wrong.

          The nonlinearity of Stefan-Boltzman law hence affects the output power calculation from the observed temperature but that has nothing to do with the input power measurement which is questioned by Giancarlo and me. However, I agree that the observed nonlinear behaviour in the experiment of the measured output power increase (700W) as a function of measured input power increase (110W) is not explained by the Joule heating argument apart from that the real input power increase would be 360W instead of 110W.

    • Samiam

      I don’t know if this applies to the power calculations being done but Dr. Rossi mentioned that the resistance involved during the operation of the E-Cat was more complicated than might appear at first glance. Can anyone comment on the applicability of his statement, found here: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=861&cpage=4#comment-1009467

      • DickeFix

        The fact that the relation between total power consumption and Joule heating in cables didn´t change between 1260 and 1400 degrees indicates that the temperature dependence of the reactor coil resistance is negligible. To explain the results with varying resistance one needs therefore to assume that the reactor coil resistance suddenly decreases with a factor of three when the fuel is inserted (or the resistance of the leads increases with a factor of three).

    • HermanoTobia

      @DickieFix

      as the reactor coil has a temperature independent resistance.

      Do you remember Celani wires ? Was their resistance temperature independent, as expected from material properties ( constantan in that case ) ? Or did those wires show a marked and unexpected NTC behaviour ?

  • Ophelia Rump

    So you propose three reasons the test is could be invalid in the same way.
    1 Reversed clamps.
    2 OL indicator showing no input to device in photo displaying wave form.
    3 Generalized anxiety.(Other)

    I will sip my coffee and consider this. . .
    I would expect at a range of 600 to 900 percent output if you were correct.
    Nyet!

  • Andreas Moraitis

    Does anybody know when the questions which have been posted at lenr forum will be submitted to the testers? It would certainly increase the acceptance of the report if they could rule out the potential problems. But they should have a chance to do it while the iron is hot.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I do not believe that is the normal channel for science.
      Perhaps we should not be so eager to open the actual inner workings of science to internet chat rooms. If a scientist finds anything worth mentioning in their opinion they can bring it forward themselves. If I were a tester I would not allow myself to be baited into a public debate with internet trolls. No good can come of it.

      Look what happened when those four professors took the low road on Ny Teknik.

      • andrea.s

        Hi Ophelia, why do I qualify as a troll ? I use a pseudonym just like you (actually an abbreviation) , because I don’t want my affiliation to be involved, which would be an easy task googling my name, but I can be privately contacted.

        • Ophelia Rump

          I did not refer to you as a troll. You were never in my thoughts in that regard, but if they open the door to you, then the door is open. You never know who else might walk in wishing to join the party.

          From the perspective of the scientists involved, they do not know who you are. You might appear to be of the best intentions until you get a foot in the door and then become a troll.

          How is anyone supposed to know this about strangers on the internet?
          If you clear that little social dilemma up for all the world, we can begin the new age of scientific democracy.

        • Sanjeev

          I hope you have submitted your findings/objections to the authors. Please ask for raw data. Raw data never lies.

          If many people ask them to release the raw data and some photos or videos of the setup, this issue can be resolved easily.

          In case there is indeed an error, then a 3rd test can be planned, this time with true RMS meters.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        It is indeed not the normal channel, but if the usual routes are blocked, looking for alternatives might be more effective than waiting until times are better. Besides, the possible implications of this test reach far beyond science. The testers made their generous offer without having been forced to do that. However, I don’t know if they have considered that they are now forced to answer. They could certainly not refer to confidentiality, as Rossi often (legitimately) does.

  • Gerard McEk

    I would say that these professors are very able men and will have checked the power measurement, by first connecting a known load to ensure that the measurement is correct. It is indeed easy to make a mistake in three phase systems. Further I believe both the power to the resistors were measured and the power to the controller, so you must make the same mistake in both systems. I hope a capable electrical engineer belonged to the party.

    • Ged

      Exactly, they measured the mains and the output of the controller. If there was inconsistency, it would be extremely obvious.

  • Samiam

    I don’t know if this applies to the power calculations being done but Dr. Rossi mentioned that the resistance involved during the operation of the E-Cat was more complicated than might appear at first glance. Can anyone comment on the applicability of his statement, found here: http://www.journal-of-nuclear-physics.com/?p=861&cpage=4#comment-1009467

  • LCD

    Whether or not this is a real concern is something that will continue to plague the ecat and ANY test of phenomenal behavior that cannot be independently verified by many many people.

    That’s just the way it is. Unfortunately.

  • LCD

    Whether or not this is a real concern is something that will continue to plague the ecat and ANY test of phenomenal behavior that cannot be independently verified by many many people.

    That’s just the way it is. Unfortunately.

  • LCD

    The testers have told myself and others that if you email them they will answer questions.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Can you ask them to release the raw data.

      • LCD

        I have

        • Bob Greenyer

          Thanks, Can you also ask them if they are certain the heater coils were connected in D not star – we are also trying to make sense of the waveform

        • Bob Greenyer

          Can you ask them where the type K TC sat – as these are not normally rated to 1400ºC

          • Alain Samoun

            They may have been using type B(Pt/Rh)

  • LCD

    The testers have told myself and others that if you email them they will answer questions.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Can you ask them to release the raw data.

      • LCD

        I have

        • Bob Greenyer

          Thanks, Can you also ask them if they are certain the heater coils were connected in D not star – we are also trying to make sense of the waveform

        • Bob Greenyer

          Can you ask them where the type K TC sat – as these are not normally rated to 1400ºC

          • Alain Samoun

            They may have been using type B(Pt/Rh)

  • Zack I

    Just my two cents for the MFMP guys. It seems to me like the initial focus of your results replication is to confirm heat-radiation-related aspects of the reactor design. As the reactor casing is fairly well understood, and the materials that compose it have been studied thoroughly, I feel this is definitely the best first angle to take. You guys are definitely thinking hard about this. I’m sure that some type of collaboration with IH has already been discussed internally, as well as by many commenters on this board.

    My personal approach would be to ask IH if the reactor casing that you guys produce is “substantially similar” to the tested E-Cat’s casing, and other related points of confirmation that aren’t too demanding of IH’s IP. Perhaps conditional NDA’s, which expire after IH is issued patents, would also lubricate the situation. I fully understand the tightrope Rossi is walking between appearing to be a fraudster by retaining some IP, and enabling definitive 3rd party replications in order to secure that IP; this succinctly explains all of his possibly “suspicious” activity. Frankly, I’m not sure why this catch-22 exists for IH’s patents and I feel it is unfair; there are plenty of things patented in the U.S. that don’t work as advertised (or at all).

    • Bob Greenyer

      Thankyou for your input. We are keen to “clean room” this – that is, we should have no contact whatsoever – we need to be beyond reproach, immune from “contact contamination”.

      We would really appreciate for them to put anything useful they can into the public domain so it may be considered.

      • Omega Z

        It is the view of some that you are already “Contaminated”.
        Confirmed by the fact that you would even consider investigating the phenomenon.

        • Pekka Janhunen

          But if and since they make everything replicable, that’ll resolve it.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Thankyou for your input. We are keen to “clean room” this – that is, we should have no contact whatsoever – we need to be beyond reproach, immune from “contact contamination”.

    We would really appreciate for them to put anything useful they can into the public domain so it may be considered.

    • Omega Z

      It is the view of some that you are already “Contaminated”.
      Confirmed by the fact that you would even consider investigating the phenomenon.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        But if and since they make everything replicable, that’ll resolve it.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I did not refer to you as a troll. You were never in my thoughts in that regard. But if they open the door to you, than the door is open. You never know who else might wish to join the party.

  • Jonnyb

    It’s a long time since I have used an A.C. current clamp but on True RMS then they would always produce positive results. Not sure of any possible problem here, sound like a load of rubbish to me.

  • Sanjeev

    I hope you have submitted your findings/objections to the authors. Please ask for raw data. Raw data never lies.

    If many people ask them to release the raw data and some photos or videos of the setup, this issue can be resolved easily.

    In case there is indeed an error, then a 3rd test can be planned, this time with true RMS meters.

  • Freethinker

    You are indeed a funny guy. 😀

    I need not explain anything to you.

    I can not authoritatively say anything about that, and you know this, as this is related to the reactor core, and is not so very well described in the report. It may also be considered outside the scope of treating the reactor as a black box.

    You simply fail to realize that you have a completely different situation when in active mode as compared to the dummy mode. You have a novel nuclear process in a blob of Ni powder at some 1260-1400C in a magnetic field, with Inconel wires being the coil heating and feeding this, having whatever characteristic it has due to doping (which is unknown). Rossi has stated that the Inconel wiring should not be regarded trivially, as it is an integral part of the reactor, and it has a non-linear behavior.

    You see the effect of non-linear behavior in the dummy mode transiting to active mode as the fuel is entered and the reactions started. So I repeat, you do NOT have the same reactor environment in the dummy mode as you have in the active reactor. Hence your comparisons of the joule heating between the two completely different contexts is not a viable comparison.

    Forget your apple and banana joggle. It does not fly.

    Again, to get those in depth answer you so badly desire, why don’t you send them an email and ask them. On this particular matter you might be stonewalled, as I think it is too close to IP matters. But the again, who knows? They just might respond.

  • Alain Samoun

    News from Rossi October 17th, 2014 at 12:08 PM

    “I have been told that other Professors, besides the ones that have signed the report and its Appendixes, have participated to the reviewing of the Report during its making and before the publication.”

    Nobody seems to have been bothered by the clamp… Go figure.

  • Sanjeev

    I must say very good job by DickeFix and others, there is indeed a strangeness in data regarding the joule heating part. Still it does not completely debunk the report IMHO.

    Assuming everything remains the same during the dummy and active tests except the addition of the fuel, the joule heating part should remain consistent, as we expect the same amount of current to flow through the resistors for a given setting of the triac. Unfortunately we do not have one to one correspondence, as the dummy was tested well below the Ecat’s operating temperatures. But we can extrapolate and we find that the current actually reduces when the fuel is in……..

    And that all we can say rationally from the limited data there is. The claims that they measured it wrong or clamps were inverted are mere speculations. The current can be reduced due to many factors, even due to the secret catalyst.(a speculation on my part).

    They should have tested the dummy at operating temperatures but could not as there was only one tube. They spent about 6 months in testing, studying and writing the report, yet they could not ask for a simple spare alumina tube from the billionaires IH ? How much would it cost or how much time would it take ? I will let the authors answer that.

    Anyway, I want to ask DickeFix and others two questions:

    1] How does the inverted clamp theory explain the transmutations ? Can Ni be transmuted simply by inverter an ammeter clamp ;-)?

    2] Fig 12, page 25 shows that most of the heat is coming from the red hot alumina tube not from the resistors. The resistors and actually so cold compared to the tube that they cast a shadow. We would expect that if there are no reactions taking place in the tube, the parts where resistors are should glow brightly forming a spiral of red glow along the tube. But we see the reverse. So how does inverted clamp explain this extraordinary fact ?

    If you can explain it successfully, we can close the Ecat file and go home. However, it will take a solid analysis by the testers to prove it completely. I hope they (and Rossi/IH) are listening. Ball is in their court now.

    • Omega Z

      Sanjeev
      #2 The resistors appear cooler then the reactor.

      The 1st 3rd party test, AND the 2nd 3rd party test produce the same unexplained phenomenon. The resistors appear cooler then the reactor.
      They couldn’t provide a valid answer the 1st time. I don’t expect then to this time.

    • Freethinker

      Everyone to their own opinions,

      “Still it does not completely debunk the report IMHO.”

      I’d say they are still a far way from debunking anything. The image of the PCE-830 was a sloppy thing, clearly, and clarification from the authors would be good, but it does not nullify the outcome.

      But the joule heating, as the clamping in my mind is a bogus issue, is in itself an interesting artifact from what goes on in the reactor core.

    • DickeFix

      Thank you Sajeev. I want to point out that it is Giancarlo (a.k.a. Raman) that discovered the discrepancy.

      Regarding the question 1, I have no explanation. All I can say is that the only realistic conclusion, even if LENR is present, is that either the analyzed ash or the analyzed fuel or both were not representative samples. The reason for this can be deliberate fraud, a mistake or just coincidence when sampling.

      Your question 2 can be explained by the much lower emissivity of polished metals than ceramic materials (typically a factor of 10). The radiation from shiny metals is much lower than for other materials unless they are heavily oxidized or much hotter than the surrounding. Hence the picture we see can be explained by ordinary visible translucence through the alumina if the coil is made of shiny metal with good thermal contact to the ceramic reactor.

      I want to stress that even assuming that the Giancarlo/Andrea.S theory turns out to be true, there are still things which are unexplained in the test. Apart from the mysterious isotope change there is the large nonlinear increase of output power when the input power was increased. The revised input power increase of 350W still can´t explain the observed output power increase of 700W. We also need to understand how the clamps suddenly were reversed on both? meters between the run of the dummy and the start of the active reactor.

      • Sanjeev

        So can you see any polished metal on the reactor ? I can not.
        The only metal I see is exiting out of the reactor and those are much more brighter than the tube. Exactly opposite of what you said.

        Actually I see only the tube which is heated by two things – the resistors and the fuel. Since I see only the tube, there is no question of emissivity of metal, the tube is heated by the metal inside it and therefore we are only talking about the brightness of the tube, which depends only on the emissivity and temperature of the tube.

        Clearly the temperature of the tube near the resistor wire is less than that farther from the wire, so the area where the wires are, look darker. Again, its the area of the alumina tube we are talking about, not of the metal wires, we cannot see them. I hope this is clear and you understand that your explanation is incorrect.

        May be you are thinking about something else, so please link some pictures from other places that show something like you assume (may be molten metal in a ceramic furnace? but I doubt it will support your explanation).

        If you need another example from the report, check the Fig 10 on page 15, where you can see the expected spiral pattern because its dummy tube (no fuel) and is only heated by the resistors. We see exact opposite in case of active tube (although its an IR image but its not an issue, the visible would be similar).

        If my reasoning is faulty please let me know.

        • DickeFix

          The sintered alumina is translucent for visible light but not for the long wavelength thermal radiation (7.5-13.5µm) that the IR-camera sees. Since it is translucent you see the emission emitted from the resistor wires and the heated reactor furnace through the alumina. Despite the alumina is a little translucent, one can not see the resistor wires when they are cool since the main part of external light will be reflected by the alumina surface.

          That the reactor furnace seems to glow more than the resistor wires around it may either be due to that it is hotter or that it has higher emissivity than the metal. I have studied a bit since last comment and learned that pyrometry of metals in the visible region is rather complex. The emissivity is dependent on both wavelength and surface structure and the differences in emissivity between shiny metals and ceramics are smaller than the 10 times I stated which is valid for long wavelengths. I am hence no longer sure that the difference in emissivity really can explain why the wires appear darker but I wouldn´t rule it out either.

          In the IR picture the alumina is opaque and it is only the radiation of the surface of the alumina we see. It is then natural that the surface temperature is higher close to the wires.

          • Sanjeev

            I have no experience in the matter of how a superheated ceramic containing a superheated metal should look to the naked eye. May be there are some peculiarities.
            But using whatever little I know about heat and light, I’m guessing that translucency will not explain it either. Assuming that the resistors are the source of heat, they are also the source of light and will shine brightly behind the translucent tube (talking only about the visible range). But we see the opposite and must suspect that they are not the main source of heat and light. E.g. in a lampshade we see the brightest area is where the bulb is, since it is the source of light. The shade is translucent and is darker.

            So for me at least, it is a puzzle and I do not buy the attempts to explain it away in any exotic way. Perhaps the experiments by MFMP will make it clear, so I will discuss it again that time.

            You are correct about the tube being opaque at IR. That should convince those who were saying that the IR camera will see it as translucent and will mess up the readings. They were wrong actually. Now the only valid objection against the report is the discrepancy in joule heating. It can bring down the whole report if not addressed by the authors.

          • DickeFix

            Yes I agree with you on all points. I am also unsure if the difference in emissivity between metal and ceramics really can explain why the furnace glows brighter than the resistor wires. On the other hand I am very sceptical that the E-Cat works and that the main source of heat is the fuel. The number of contradictions are too many. For instance why does Rossi claim enriched Ni62 is an important part of the fuel when the fuel is found to be natural Ni in both isotope tests while the ash sample is pure Ni-62? I hope the future will tell.

          • Freethinker

            “Now the only valid objection against the report is the discrepancy in joule heating. It can bring down the whole report if not addressed by the authors.”

            No it wont, as it is the process in the reactor that cause the Inconel wire coil to change impedance, not from that the material in itself magically being changed but that the reactor environment is such that it affect the rat of electron or electron hole propagation in the wire – or the current.

            You cannot compare the dummy situation with the situation with the active reactor. Again, apple and bananas.

            It is simply a proxy, a reflection, of the COP that is seen.

            But by all means, it would be good to hear the authors clarify some things. But I doubt they can or will go into any depths what the joule heating is concerned as it may come to close to IP issues. Yo would want to know HOW does this happen, you see.

          • Sanjeev

            Let the authors confirm this.
            If there is indeed a drop in current when loaded with the fuel, then it will be a big clue. The most important clue actually, because it will reveal the magnetic properties of the fuel, which affect the reactance of the resistors.

  • Sanjeev

    So can you see any polished metal on the reactor ? I can not.
    The only metal I see is exiting out of the reactor and those are much more brighter than the tube. Exactly opposite of what you said.

    Actually I see only the tube which is heated by two things – the resistors and the fuel. Since I see only the tube, there is no question of emissivity of metal, the tube is heated by the metal inside it and therefore we are only talking about the brightness of the tube, which depends only on the emissivity and temperature of the tube.

    Clearly the temperature of the tube near the resistor wire is less than that farther from the wire, so the area where the wires are, look darker. Again, its the area of the alumina tube we are talking about, not of the metal wires, we cannot see them. I hope this is clear and you understand that your explanation is incorrect.

    May be you are thinking about something else, so please link some pictures from other places that show something like you assume (may be molten metal in a ceramic furnace? but I doubt it will support your explanation).

    If you need another example from the report, check the Fig 10 on page 15, where you can see the expected spiral pattern because its dummy tube (no fuel) and is only heated by the resistors. We see exact opposite in case of active tube (although its an IR image but its not an issue, the visible would be similar).

    If my reasoning is faulty please let me know.

  • Mcdownunder

    One successful replication and the whole argument shall fall apart

  • Mcdownunder

    One successful replication and the whole argument shall fall apart

  • Sanjeev

    I have no experience in the matter of how a superheated ceramic containing a superheated metal should look to the naked eye. May be there are some peculiarities.
    But using whatever little I know about heat and light, I’m guessing that translucency will not explain it either. Assuming that the resistors are the source of heat, they are also the source of light and will shine brightly behind the translucent tube (talking only about the visible range). But we see the opposite and must suspect that they are not the main source of heat and light. E.g. in a lampshade we see the brightest area is where the bulb is, since it is the source of light. The shade is translucent and is darker.

    So for me at least, it is a puzzle and I do not buy the attempts to explain it away in any exotic way. Perhaps the experiments by MFMP will make it clear, so I will discuss it again that time.

    You are correct about the tube being opaque at IR. That should convince those who were saying that the IR camera will see it as translucent and will mess up the readings. They were wrong actually. Now the only valid objection against the report is the discrepancy in joule heating. It can bring down the whole report if not addressed by the authors.

    • Freethinker

      “Now the only valid objection against the report is the discrepancy in joule heating. It can bring down the whole report if not addressed by the authors.”

      No it wont, as it is the process in the reactor that cause the Inconel wire coil to change impedance, not from that the material in itself magically being changed but that the reactor environment is such that it affect the rat of electron or electron hole propagation in the wire – or the current.

      You cannot compare the dummy situation with the situation with the active reactor. Again, apple and bananas.

      It is simply a proxy, a reflection, of the COP that is seen.

      But by all means, it would be good to hear the authors clarify some things. But I doubt they can or will go into any depths what the joule heating is concerned as it may come to close to IP issues. Yo would want to know HOW does this happen, you see.

      • Sanjeev

        Let the authors confirm this.
        If there is indeed a drop in current when loaded with the fuel, then it will be a big clue. The most important clue actually, because it will reveal the magnetic properties of the fuel, which affect the reactance of the resistors.

  • Sanjeev

    Looks like there is another problem with the report. The color of the glowing tube does not match the usual temperature.
    http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg99121.html

    This comment by Jed Rothwell is pretty serious :

    “If the authors do not address this question and tell us what color it was,
    after a while I am going assume they made a mistake, and I am going to
    ignore this test.

    – Jed”

    • Freethinker

      Sanjeev,

      With all respect for Jed, as he is doing a great and exceptional job on his lenr-canr site, and not doubt is a person with a lot of knowledge.

      The material is transparent in the visual. It is apparent from the temperature range we are talking about that red is 2-3 orders of magnitude stronger than blue wavelengths, if the core is radiating like a black body. There is also impact of the refraction in many surfaces of the Al2O3 granules. What ever bright white intensity would he expect? What intensities would that be? You have an orange/amber source in the core, shining through with ~80% transmission and that is what is seen in the snapshots.

      • Sanjeev

        I also think that the color issue is not so serious. It can look orange to a camera depending on its shutter setting or iso settings. Only the people present there can tell what color it was.

        We will know when MFMP heats up their alumina.

        • Freethinker

          … And also color dynamics settings. True, we will have some more information when MFMP start making their tests.

          But I actually think that the light seen also with the human eye, is diffuse amber, because I would assume they would mention it if it was bright white for the eye, and orange in the two pictures, then it would be worth noting. They simply state that they “glow” in figure 12.

  • Sanjeev

    Looks like there is another problem with the report. The color of the glowing tube does not match the usual temperature.
    http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l@eskimo.com/msg99121.html

    This comment by Jed Rothwell is pretty serious :

    “If the authors do not address this question and tell us what color it was,
    after a while I am going assume they made a mistake, and I am going to
    ignore this test.

    – Jed”

    • Freethinker

      Sanjeev,

      With all respect for Jed, as he is doing a great and exceptional job on his lenr-canr site, and not doubt is a person with a lot of knowledge.

      The material is transparent in the visual. It is apparent from the temperature range we are talking about that red is 2-3 orders of magnitude stronger than blue wavelengths, if the core is radiating like a black body. There is also impact of the refraction in many surfaces of the Al2O3 granules. What ever bright white intensity would he expect? What intensities would that be? You have an orange/amber source in the core, shining through with ~80% transmission and that is what is seen in the snapshots.

      • Sanjeev

        I also think that the color issue is not so serious. It can look orange to a camera depending on its shutter setting or iso settings. Only the people present there can tell what color it was.

        We will know when MFMP heats up their alumina.

        • Freethinker

          … And also color dynamics settings. True, we will have some more information when MFMP start making their tests.

          But I actually think that the light seen also with the human eye, is diffuse amber, because I would assume they would mention it if it was bright white for the eye, and orange in the two pictures, then it would be worth noting. They simply state that they “glow” in figure 12.

  • Joniale

    Hi,

    It seems Rossie answered all the concerns in one post.

    http://www.e-catworld.com/2014/10/20/andrea-rossi-comments-on-open-letter-to-stefan-pomp-then-deletes/

    Unfortunately, he deleted the post afterwards. In any case we know that he is aware of that and he still is confident that these things has not been a problem for the independent test.

    Moreover i would like to hear the same from the Professors of the test.
    Best regards,

  • Andrea S.

    Before I had access to the documents, I was quite fascinated by the man Rossi who, in spite of visible lack of technical and scientific background, had so much backing from eminent scientists from Prof. Focardi to Prof. Essen in his extraordinary claims.
    Then I started studying the reports and I disliked them.
    The TPR1 had inconsistencies, and the TPR2 (expected to resolve them) is worse.
    The problem is, when analyzing a report one has to stick to the report and not be biased or intimidated by the qualification of the authors.
    The main inconsistencies which must be clarified in my view are
    1. instrument shown in overload
    2. instrument showing apparently inverted current waveform consistent with 3-fold overestimation of input power
    3. inconsistent power ratio from dummy run to experiment run for the joule heating
    4. evident flaw in computation of current partition for the joule heating (not significant for COP but disturbing).
    If the hotcat is real, and if the test was properly led, it will be very easy for the Authors to shut our mouths with evidence.

    Concerning point 4, I have posted an earlier comment which is wrong. Whatever the conduction angle of the triacs, the ratio of input rms current (each of three inputs) to currents in the resistor loads (any of the three delta connected resistors) is sqrt(3). I was tricked but a discussion with Giancarlo aka Raman over the blogs convinced me and i found the miscalculation.
    Certainly the ratio is not 2 as stated by the TPR2, and as strongly confimed by Rossi and some of his fans on blogs.
    It took myself an hour of time, dedicated within two days of Giancarlo’s peer review of my comment, to find and admit the error. I hope the authors, whose error is worse, will not take six months to admit at least this trivial mistake.
    But what they should do in priority is provide raw data and evidence of the electrical input power.

    Andrea S.

  • Joniale

    Last comment from Andrea S. Copied from Mata L Blog. Is there still problems?

    • andrea.s

      Thanks Joniale for posting a replica of my comment. Frankly it looks sinister to see one’s own nickname (abbreviation, actually) used by another: luckily your intentions are good, but the same could be done to discredit opponents.

      Hopefully, although the debate got inevitably harsh (understandable given what is at stake) everybody will stick to data and avoid personal attacks.

      Bo Hoistad started providing some timid replies (two) to selected questions posted on LENR-forum ( http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/722-Ask-questions-to-the-Working-Group-ECAT-long-term-test/?pageNo=1 )

      It’s a start, far from satisfactory for the time being, but better than nothing.

      I hope he will address my questions also posted there.

  • andrea.s

    Joniale, you ask “are there still problems”?

    Well yes there are huge problems.

    The discussion on the current partition is little more than academic, but the story of the reversed current plot (justifies a x3 underestimation of input current) and the 1 to 6 ratio of currents from dummy run to experiment run (again meaning a x3 underestimation of input power) are tombstones on top of the hotcat.

    If the authors were to say : “the hot cat is real, the 1 to 6 current ratio is correct, the I3 plot is correct and I3 flows in phase opposition to the supply voltage” they should change their title to “Observation of abundant anisotropic thermoelectric energy production from a reactor device and of isotopic changes in the fuel” which would make Rossi’s discovery twice as important.
    Forget Stirling engines and turbines, you could stick an alumina dogbone to your bycicle frame and travel for free forever.

  • Joniale

    I add an interesting comment from Giancarlo in the Mats Lewan blog.
    He shows photos how the inverted clamp can cause this.
    I really think the test group should say something official about this now.
    —-
    @mark hazelton
    Giancarlo
    Because you have access to a PCE 830, can I request that you connect the clamps in the correct sequence to a ‘Three-way AC output’ and post the relevant screenshots.
    Please, enjoy
    https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/66642475/PCE%20Clamp%20test.docx