Interview with Hank Mills on the Lugano E-Cat Report, Replication Efforts

Below is an interview I conducted with PESN correspondent Hank Mills about recent developments with the E-Cat and upcoming replication efforts. Hank has been a long-time follower of the E-Cat, and has written extensively about it on PESWiki.com. (His most recent articles on the E-Cat can be found here)

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Very good interview, Hank Mills. You have done your homework. You are a good spokesperson for propagating the matter.

    • Christopher Calder

      Hank did a great job. I suggest that the dam of denial now has a serious hole in it. The dam is holding but weakening. The mainstream scientific community has made no major public statements, but in private I believe many, if not most, take the test very seriously and are getting nervous. What Hank failed to talk about are the other major LENR companies that may have major announcements, new independent test results, etc., in the weeks and months ahead. A critical mass of pressure behind the dam is building, and I think we are near the point where the dam will burst wide open and everything will come out in public, including the MIT cover-up scandal and the pig headed blockade of scientific progress being conducted by the US Patent Office.

      You can help by writing Albert Gore’s Climate Reality Project,

      http://forms.climaterealityproject.org/page/s/contact-us

      the Green Party, Greenpeace, and every major environmental group you can think of plus your representatives in Congress. Ask them to put pressure on Obama to call the US Patent Office and tell them to stop the discrimination against LENR products. If Rossi and others had patents, they would be much more open about revealing their technical secrets.

      • maybe I’m an awfully negative guy, but I don’t think that you name the people who can help us solve the problem, instead of preventing us to kill their business…

        I rather bet on the consumers to follow us. japanese, cargo makers, car makers, plane manufacturers, concrete producers, food industry, farmers, citizens…

        anyway , maybe I’m wrong because darden seems to be playing in that club.
        future will say.

        • Christopher Calder

          Every action has a reaction. Here is a letter I sent a number of news organizations, politicians, environmental groups, etc.
          ———————-
          Please do what you can to end the US Patent Office’s discrimination against Low Energy Nuclear Reaction (LENR) products that can replace all fossil fuels while producing no greenhouse gas emissions or radioactive waste. Pig headedness at the US Patent Office can be overcome by one presidential phone call. Does Barack Obama really want a low cost, reliable 24-7-365 replacement for oil, coal, and natural gas? Does he want China to get LENR products to the marketplace before the USA? That may happen unless he acts to support LENR intellectual property rights.

          Christopher Calder – nonprofit food security advocate
          ————————-

    • LCD

      Okay if Pekka says so then I’ll have to listen to it. Truthfully I wasn’t planning on doing so.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Very good interview, Hank Mills. You have done your homework. You are a good spokesperson for propagating the matter.

    • LCD

      Okay if Pekka says so then I’ll have to listen to it. Truthfully I wasn’t planning on doing so.

  • hunfgerh

    Why CF needs a RT-superconductor? The Lugano Report contains the following hard facts. In an E-CAT a nuclear reaction takes place: The base materials of the E-Cat is converted to higher isotopes of the base material. Further, the E-Cat produces more heat than is possible by a chemical reaction. Gamma radiation, neutron radiation was not measured.
    Furthermore, all speak quite naturally on e-capture by protons. An explanation of how something runs out is not given. Why? The statement was delivered several times. From the mass difference of the following reaction (p + + e- + E –> n + v) the amount of energy for neutron formation can calculated. It is for the e-capture (K-capture) 0.78 MeV. On the other hand, the ionization energy of hydrogen is 13.6 eV. Not targeted energy supply> = 13.6 eV thus leads the hydrogen ionization and is therefore always counterproductive for a neutron production. A prerequisite for e-capture in addition to the amount of energy is the direction of the applied energy. To push the s-electron into the core a spherically symmetric force, which pushes the electron via core is necessary. The necessary power can be realized by a spherically symmetric electron density around the nucleus. The mutual repulsion of the electrons in this case pushes an electron into the nucleus. The realization of the high electron density is required in a dynamic field (current flow), high current densities, which can be realized only with corresponding superconductors.
    You can also discuss here about endlessly or simply confirm the results of DE102008047334B4 by independent institutions.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Electron/neutron capture could indeed play a role in this game. But LENR seem to include an entire zoo of possible reactions. How would you explain, for example, the depletion of 7Li in Rossi’s latest reactor? If 7Li would capture a neutron (with the subsequent path >> 8Be >> 2 4He), one could expect to see fairly strong gammas (6-7 MeV). 7Li + p fusion (analogous continuation, no gammas) looks more plausible in this case, although the question how the Coulomb wall is overcome remains open. Maybe the “neutrons” are “virtual neutrons” (protons with “shielding” electrons), and the electrons are expelled from the nucleus after the reaction?

      • hunfgerh

        You said it “LENR seem to include an entire zoo of possible reactions”.

        Electron capture: Electron capture leads to a shift in Neutrons and protons (Neutrons + 1, protons – 1): z. B: H –> n; 28 Ni –> 27 Co

        Dependent from wether the new element isotop is stable or not it decays by radiation into other elements

        Neutron capture: Neutron capture leads to a shift only in neutrons, building of higher isotops of the elment: H + n –> D + n –> T + n –> “Q”;
        28/58Ni + n –> 28/59Ni + n –> 28/60Ni + n –> usw.

        Instabel Isotops can decay to other elements: “Q” –> He + ß-

        What exactly happens in praxis depends maybe from outer conditions?
        To research this is duty from public financial systems.

  • hunfgerh

    Why CF needs a RT-superconductor? The Lugano Report contains the following hard facts. In an E-CAT a nuclear reaction takes place: The base materials of the E-Cat is converted to higher isotopes of the base material. Further, the E-Cat produces more heat than is possible by a chemical reaction. Gamma radiation, neutron radiation was not measured.
    Furthermore, all speak quite naturally on e-capture by protons. An explanation of how something runs out is not given. Why? The statement was delivered several times. From the mass difference of the following reaction (p + + e- + E –> n + v) the amount of energy for neutron formation can calculated. It is for the e-capture (K-capture) 0.78 MeV. On the other hand, the ionization energy of hydrogen is 13.6 eV. Not targeted energy supply> = 13.6 eV thus leads the hydrogen ionization and is therefore always counterproductive for a neutron production. A prerequisite for e-capture in addition to the amount of energy is the direction of the applied energy. To push the s-electron into the core a spherically symmetric force, which pushes the electron via core is necessary. The necessary power can be realized by a spherically symmetric electron density around the nucleus. The mutual repulsion of the electrons in this case pushes an electron into the nucleus. The realization of the high electron density is required in a dynamic field (current flow), high current densities, which can be realized only with corresponding superconductors.
    You can also discuss here about endlessly or simply confirm the results of DE102008047334B4 by independent institutions.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Electron/neutron capture could indeed play a role in this game. But LENR seem to include an entire zoo of possible reactions. How would you explain, for example, the depletion of 7Li in Rossi’s latest reactor? If 7Li would capture a neutron (with the subsequent path >> 8Be >> 2 4He), one could expect to see fairly strong gammas (6-7 MeV). 7Li + p fusion (analogous continuation, no gammas) looks more plausible in this case, although the question how the Coulomb wall is overcome remains open. Maybe the “neutrons” are “virtual neutrons” (protons with “shielding” electrons), and the electrons are expelled from the nucleus after the reaction?

      • hunfgerh

        You said it “LENR seem to include an entire zoo of possible reactions”.

        Electron capture: Electron capture leads to a shift in Neutrons and protons (Neutrons + 1, protons – 1): z. B: H –> n; 28 Ni –> 27 Co

        Dependent from wether the new element isotop is stable or not it decays by radiation into other elements

        Neutron capture: Neutron capture leads to a shift only in neutrons, building of higher isotops of the elment: H + n –> D + n –> T + n –> “Q”;
        28/58Ni + n –> 28/59Ni + n –> 28/60Ni + n –> usw.

        Instabel Isotops can decay to other elements: “Q” –> He + ß-

        What exactly happens in praxis depends maybe from outer conditions?
        To research this is duty from public financial systems.

  • Buck

    This was an excellent interview. It is well worth the time. For example, Hank did a great job of describing the faulty logic of the skeptics who have been trying to tear down the results of ITPR2.

  • Buck

    This was an excellent interview. It is well worth the time. For example, Hank did a great job of describing the faulty logic of the skeptics who have been trying to tear down the results of ITPR2.

  • BroKeeper

    Perhaps obvious to others, one thing that struck me personally was Hank’s insight of nuclear reaction presence verses any other known reactions. He mentioned by simply observing an E-Cats
    temperature decreased much slower than a dummy’s temperature without a catalyst after the controlled input was removed. This can only assert a self-sustained capability of operation occurring from nuclear reactions considering its small size.

  • Brokeeper

    Perhaps obvious to others, one thing that struck me personally was Hank’s insight of nuclear reaction presence verses any other known reactions. He mentioned by simply observing an E-Cats temperature decreased much slower than a dummy’s temperature without a catalyst after the controlled input was removed. For me this can only assert a self-sustained capability of operation occurring from nuclear reactions considering its small size.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    Have to say this is a much better interview than the Sterling interview a little while ago. Hank also seems very well informed, which makes this a good story to listen to.

    Well done, Frank.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    Have to say this is a much better interview than the Sterling interview a little while ago. Hank also seems very well informed, which makes this a good story to listen to.

    Well done, Frank.

  • Hank did a great job. I suggest that the dam of denial now has a serious hole in it. The dam is holding but weakening. The mainstream scientific community has made no major public statements, but in private I believe many, if not most, take the test very seriously and are getting nervous. What Hank failed to talk about are the other major LENR companies that may have major announcements, new independent test results, etc., in the weeks and months ahead. A critical mass of pressure behind the dam is building, and I think we are near the point where the dam will burst wide open and everything will come out in public, including the MIT cover-up scandal and the pig headed blockade of scientific progress being conducted by the US Patent Office.

    You can help by writing Albert Gore’s Climate Reality Project,

    http://forms.climaterealityproject.org/page/s/contact-us

    the Green Party, Greenpeace, and every major environmental group you can think of plus your representatives in Congress. Ask them to put pressure on Obama to call the US Patent Office and tell them to stop the discrimination against LENR products. If Rossi and others had patents, they would be much more open about revealing their technical secrets.

    • maybe I’m an awfully negative guy, but I don’t think that you name the people who can help us solve the problem, instead of preventing us to kill their business…

      I rather bet on the consumers to follow us. japanese, cargo makers, car makers, plane manufacturers, concrete producers, food industry, farmers, citizens…

      anyway , maybe I’m wrong because darden seems to be playing in that club.
      future will say.

      • Every action has a reaction. Here is a letter I sent a number of news organizations, politicians, environmental groups, etc.
        ———————-
        Please do what you can to end the US Patent Office’s discrimination against Low Energy Nuclear Reaction (LENR) products that can replace all fossil fuels while producing no greenhouse gas emissions or radioactive waste. Pig headedness at the US Patent Office can be overcome by one presidential phone call. Does Barack Obama really want a low cost, reliable 24-7-365 replacement for oil, coal, and natural gas? Does he want China to get LENR products to the marketplace before the USA? That may happen unless he acts to support LENR intellectual property rights.

        Christopher Calder – nonprofit food security advocate
        ————————-

  • Hank Mills

    Thanks to everyone for the supportive comments about the interview. Personally, I believe I was “off my game” a little, but I’m thankful it seems to have turned out decent. I should point out an error I made early in the interview: the hot cat in the Lugano report generated heat, not electricity. I hope in the future I will have the opportunity to be interviewed again. I love talking about the E-Cat! (The cashiers at my local fast food joints can confirm.)

    • Lurker123

      This interview just seems unbelievably naive Hank. Just absolutely preposterously naive.

      At around the 30:20 mark

      1. OK, let’s us assume this effect is real. I do. I believe rossi. I think it works. I think we are in the “race to market” phase.

      2. Assuming that, this is EASILY the most valuable invention in human history. Literally, fully developed, this is a TRILLION dollar invention. If not by direct sales, then all the ancillary businesses that will pop up around it in addition to the tech.

      3. You have apparently not remotely considered the full ramifications of this invention. There are MILLIONS of people employed by hundreds of thousands of companies around the world that will be directly harmed by this technology. Energy is the largest industry in history. BY FAR. Think oil companies. Think nuke fission plants that become obsolete malivestments on the scale of hundreds of billions. Think energy generators. Think coal towns. Think oil towns. Think oil platforms in the ocean.

      Now think BIGGER. Did you know mexicos govt is largely dependent on oil revenue? Like 40%+. Now think the middle east. MANY countries almost TOTALLY dependent on oil revenue for their ENTIRE country’s budget! Think saudi, iraq, iran, venezuela, egypt, libya, UAE, qatar, etc.

      Now think BIGGER. Russia. Beligerent nuke superpower VERY dependent on selling their nat. gas and oil to the west to fund their government.

      4. This means that there are literally TRILLIONS of dollars in current energy sector investments being devalued by this invention.

      5 Yes, of COURSE it is a net gain for humanity in the big picture, but that in no way prevents the current owners of the trillions in current energy investment from being super angry that they are about to be screwed on a truly titantic scale. A truly massive economic shift like this is not just going to move smoothly with the existing powers that be sitting idely by what they lose trillions to some new upstart.

      What kind of dirty tricks do I forsee as possible?

      1. Rossi cant get a patent. -Duh, this is already the case. For apparent reasons of “we dont believe you”? If you think big energy doesnt pull strings at the federal government level, you could not possibly be more wrong.

      2. Someone ELSE somehow sneaks in and gets patents for all or part of rossi’s process since he does not have anything patented yet. This could essentially prevent rossi from ever getting anything to market. Now how could this happen you say? Well, if I was exxon or putin or the saudis, I would pretty much spend every cent I had to prevent rossi from getting the patent. Via lobbying, setting up competitors, or literally any method at all. And I would throw ALL my billions at the problem

      3. Exactly what you say. ANYONE who wants to replicate rossi could mess up their experiment on purpose to make LENR seem dangerous. “OOOOHHH, our replication blew up! We have to restrict this technology!”

      4. Buy out ANY part of rossi’s process that could stymie him. Like the producers of his components, etc.

      5. Beat him to market with a failed machine (or that starts working at first then fails down the road) that discredits the invention.

      6. Steal the idea, bet him to market with super low prices, then slowly restrict the supply so neither their machine nor rossi’s is economically feasible, and restrict the IP by suing any new competitors.

      7. physically harm rossi or his team.

      8. Have many external replications fail to discredit rossi.

      9. This technology is now a “national security” concern, and immediately taken over as a state secret not to be dissemminated because the commies may use it against us. (like fission, because its “dangerous”)

      10. Rossi is accused of operating a “scheme” and all his stuff is siezed by the feds on the pretext of “protecting investors”

      11. All the above scenarios are EASIER at this time because the public does not really believe in this tech yet – they think of it as a “scam”, and news of any of these dirty tricks would not even really breech the world’s consciousness. There’s only a few of us on board fully at this point.

      Now, last but not least, to naively imply that replicators “SHOULDNT steal rossi’s work but rather just do it for science” just seems ludicrous. Anyone that can make this work is going to market asap, and they will be HAPPY to scrap over the billions of dollars with rossi down the road in court. ANYONE is going to get their finger in the pie as soon as possible. Look at defkalion- they already tried to do so!

      To just naively say “replicators shouldnt try to get to market” on a trillion dollar market is like myspace and friendster thinking there would never be a facebook. ESPECIALLY since the government has refused to grant him patents!

      ALL HE HAS IS TRADE SECRETS, and you are encouraging third party replications that could essentially expose all his hard work for the world to see and devise a plan to thwart him????

      Wake up man. I have been watching CF for years now also, all the way back to pons in ’89, and you apparently have not yet grasped the full ramifications of this invention.

      The best thing for rossi now is to be first to market under cover of trade secrets. Replicating publicly might have far more negative ramifications than you seem to understand.

      Right now, the energy sector behemoth seems to be asleep at the wheel. Maybe its better we let sleeping dogs lie.

      My simple suppestion? The MFMP people, IF they find anything need to talk to rossi FIRST, and develop a game plan for releasing their findings to the world, and maybe QUIETLY disseminate their findings to ONLY trusted parties that do not have nefarious intentions to secretly thwart the roll out of cold fusion.

      Assuming everyone wants this to be true is a big BIG mistake. MANY parties will be harmed.

      • Brokeeper

        Lurker123; Darden, Rossi & Co. has hedged their bets that trump those points. It is China. China is immune from these concerns. The Chinese government is only stable as its masses and answers only to its society’s rest. They know the E-Cat is the only quick resolution to their dirty fossil fuels literal stranglehold on its society. Darden and Rossi’s altruistic values are deeper than their pockets, a characteristic highly favored in Chinese people’s complementary yin/yang philosophical beliefs.

        Another ace they have is the US Defense’s need for inexpensive, compact, clean and safe energy to power their futuristic advanced technological vehicles and weapons. They can only hold the LENR genie in the bottle so long and hidden from public view without chancing public outcry if too long. There are many other factors one should consider before conspiracy theory angsts.

        • Sanjeev

          Colonization of Mars will be extremely difficult without a LENR energy source. LENR can enable life in space and other planets. I guess no one will oppose it for this purpose, not even the oil co.s, as long as they have their captive customers here.
          Space applications are a good excuse to start developing LENR. No interests are harmed in this sector. Of course the tech will “spill” into other areas slowly. It will be a soft launch rather than total disruption.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            So many points make sense.
            A “naive” approach is just as powerful as the pessimist’s theory.
            Rossi knows full well the power of companies that trade, distribute, dominate the big fossil fuel industry: he was thrown in jail after inventing a system which interfered with some of the mafia’s economic interests (waste management). The mafia, obviously lobbying freely in Italian politics, operated to CHANGE THE LAW. Hence Rossi, with a working system already in place, demonstrated in its efficiency, was outlawed. Looking at Italy’s current politics, the same happens today. Nobody invests in Italy because the laws keep changing, amid a horrifically slow-mo, inefficient (corrupt?) Kafkian judicial system.
            Do we think that other governments around the globe are honest or fend for the future of humanity? No. Each government looks to immediate economic satisfaction, where members mostly seem to seek individual benefits, without ever – to this day – fully factoring the environment and the long term consequences of human action in the economy’s equation.
            This is where Lurker123 is completely right on some harm that could come LENR’s way.
            The force of naiveté seen by Bro, however, lies in the internet, in its numbers, in its language, English.
            In mercatu veritas, Rossi says: the more people are informed worldwide trough the internet about LENR and how it might work, the more companies are able to replicate LENR effects mechanizing them into usable devices, the bigger is the chance that LENR might be accepted.
            This must happen before the laws are changed in both realms, as it happened with the EU law on ‘justified oblivion’ for the internet.
            AlainCo in LENR-forum has stressed the psychological aspects of evaluating a theory that is foreign to conventional wisdom (http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/news/index.php/News/13-Sifferkoll-Why-are-Pomp-Eriksson-Ekstr%C3%B6m-and-H%C3%A5kansson-Making-Fools-out-of-Thems/).
            This is exactly the Galileo Galilei example that Rossi gave, simply: it took the Church (in some countries the Catholic Church was a ‘legal system’, to all effects) 350 years to make the first admission it might have been wrong: it was 1992! The theory will not be accepted before some scale replications of LENR machinery are a reality. But the replications might be in danger of being ‘outlawed’, so the swifter they are made public, open source, the more difficult they will be to stop.
            The interest in LENR measured by Google Trends, from LENR-forum: http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/index.php/Thread/?postID=1422#post1422
            We are all waiting for that “That’s the press, baby” moment (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FgdE-qPv6kw).
            That moment, in my view, implies the verified operation of scores of LENR-related machinery.
            Sanjeev’s “soft launch” might be the just way LENR comes to life…

          • malkom700

            When it is a beneficial thing then its implementation is only a matter of management. The first may be oil companies and countries that will invest in the project.

  • BroKeeper

    Lurker123, Darden, Rossi & Co. has hedged their bets that trump those points. It is China. China is immune from these concerns. The Chinese government is only stable as its masses and answers only to its society’s rest. They know the E-Cat is the only quick resolution to their dirty fossil fuels literal stranglehold on its society. Darden and Rossi’s altruistic values are deeper than their pockets, a characteristic highly favored in Chinese people’s complementary yin/yang philosophical beliefs. Another ace they have is the US Defense’s need for inexpensive, compact, clean and safe energy to power their futuristic advanced technological vehicles and weapons. They can only hold the LENR genie in the bottle so long and hidden from public view without chancing public outcry if held too long. There are many other factors one should consider before conspiracy theories are contrived.

    • Sanjeev

      Colonization of Mars will be extremely difficult without a LENR energy source. LENR can enable life in space and other planets. I guess no one will oppose it for this purpose, not even the oil co.s, as long as they have their captive customers here.
      Space applications are a good excuse to start developing LENR. No interests are harmed in this sector. Of course the tech will “spill” into other areas slowly. It will be a soft launch rather than total disruption.

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        So many points make sense. The “naive” interpretation is, perhaps, just as powerful as the pessimist’s theory.
        Rossi knows full well the power of companies that trade, distribute, dominate the big fossil fuel industry: he was thrown in jail after inventing a system which interfered with some of the mafia’s economic interests (waste management). The mafia, obviously lobbying freely in Italian politics, operated in such a way to CHANGE THE LAW. Look at Italy’s current politics: the same happens today. Nobody invests in Italy because the laws keep changing, amid a horrifically slow-mo Kafkian judicial system.
        Do we think that governments around the globe are honest or fend for the future of humanity? No. Each government looks to economic domination, where not to individual benefits, without ever – to this day – fully factoring the environment in the equation.
        This is where Lurker123 is completely right on some potential harm that could come LENR’s way.
        The force of naiveté lies in the internet, in its numbers, in its language, English.
        In mercatu veritas, Rossi says: the more people are informed worldwide trough the internet about LENR, the more companies are able to replicate LENR effects mechanizing them into usable devices, before the laws are changed by corruption in both realms (like the EU law on ‘justified oblivion’), the bigger is the chance that LENR might be accepted. AlainCo in LENR-forum has stressed the psychological aspects of denying a theory that is foreign to conventional wisdom (http://www.lenr-forum.com/forum/news/index.php/News/13-Sifferkoll-Why-are-Pomp-Eriksson-Ekstr%C3%B6m-and-H%C3%A5kansson-Making-Fools-out-of-Thems/).
        This is exactly the Galileo Galilei example that Rossi simply gave: it took the Church (it could be called the legal system of yesteryear) 350 years to make the first admiission it might have been wrong: it was 1992!
        We are all waiting for that “That’s the press, baby” moment. But that implies the verified operation of scores of LENR-related machinery.

      • malkom700

        When it is a beneficial thing then its implementation is only a matter of management. The first may be oil companies and countries that will invest in the project.

  • R101

    Well done Hank, and thanks Frank.
    Maybe we should rejoice with some Hankie Panky 🙂
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijKKL5t8b04

    Enjoy!

    • HarryD

      Make that Hankie Frankie !!!