Rossi: ‘Magnificence’ E-Cat Plant Comprises 103 E-Cats, 100 Computers

I put a question today to Andrea Rossi on the Journal of Nuclear Physics asking about whether he had time to work on the 1MW plant lately, and the current status of the project.

This was his response:

Frank Acland:
I dedicate all my time to my 1MW baby and the connected R&D. I honestly am very positive: it is a magnificence, even if a lot of problems had to be resolved and probably will have to, but our model is NASA: how many failures before arriving on the Moon with the boots. “Non mollare mai” ( Never give up). Mostly all of my time goes to this, but also, in collaboration with nuclear physicists I am working on a theory that could explain the results of the report. I think that we will be able to reconcile everything with good sense and in full respect of the Standars Model. The dark side is that I have time for nothing else.
Obviously this effort is shared by all the Team, in particular the electronic engineers, who are making a masterpiece to harmonize an orchestra of 103 E-Cats with a quite complex play of Cats and Mice; the control system is made by about 100 computers . This wonderful Team is writing a page of History; every component of this Team is working at the maximum of his capacity.
Thank you very much for your kind attention,
Warm Regards,
A.R.

I like the analogy to NASA — one can almost imagine a team as dedicated to launching the first E-Cat plant into the world as the Apollo 11 team was in getting the first men to the moon and back. It sounds like a very complex task, but it sounds like they are all determined to make it a success.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Are they using Arduinos?

    • Curbina

      Ophelia, we have enough with the LENR huge polemic by the moment, please don’t open a new can of worms with summoning the plasma cosmology huge polemic into the debate!

      • Ophelia Rump

        I am just waiting for they day they have to consider the possibility the Grand Canyon was carved by electrical discharge!

        Was that subversive?

        • Freethinker

          +1 for a smart comment, 😉
          but I think Curbina to be right. Let’s focus on LENR and ECAT.

          • georgehants

            Pray that there’s intelligent life somewhere out in space,
            ‘Cause there’s bugger all down here on Earth!
            Monty Python, “The Galaxy Song”

          • Obvious

            Hi, George. I was wondering where you went. I hope all is as well with you as can be.

          • georgehants

            Thank you Obvious, all very well thank you.

          • ecatworld

            Hi George, nice to hear from you!

          • georgehants

            Thank you Frank.

          • GreenWin

            Nice to see you around and about George! How are you liking Cornwall?

          • georgehants

            GreenWin, Cornwall Wonderful and I am being very careful to watch out for those Pirates of Penzance, ha.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Good to see this old warrior back 🙂

          • georgehants

            Thanks Z, still crazy but holding in there.

        • Charles

          Ophelia, see the Dr Walt Brown theory on how the Grand Canyon was formed in the Noah’s Flood process as described by Dr. Brown.
          Verry Interestink.

        • psi2u2

          Terribly. 😉

        • Curbina

          Borderline outrageous, indeed, but the good kind of outrageous.

    • timycelyn

      Interestingly, it seems that Rossi’s post may have been updated to include the ‘about 100 computers’ phrase. I normally don’t go to the blog itself (a bit difficult to be sure I’m catching it all) and so I use the abstracting site http://www.rossilivecat.com. The post on that site does not have that piece of information in it:

      “Obviously this effort is shared by all the Team, in particular the electronic engineers, who are making a masterpiece to harmonize an orchestra of 103 E-Cats with a quite complex play of Cats and Mice. This wonderful Team is writing a page of History; every component of this Team is working at the maximum of his capacity.”

      The original blog does, however.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      My institute has instruments on Rosetta, but I haven’t heard of electric theory of comets – could you give a link or reference?

    • I guess he’s talking about normal computers (notebooks) which are recording measurement data. I can’t imagine that the control algorithm is such complex that 100 cpus have to be used to manage the computing load. A few raspberry pis in a cluster could do that.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        I would rather expect that they use identical circuit boards for each reactor. These boards could integrate a relatively simple control circuit and a triac-like component that adapts the electric input. Maybe they need as well an individual regulation of the coolant flow. One central computer could be used to control the overall parameters. It would also provide the user interface.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        I would think that he might call a raspberry pi a computer. To a programmer, everything programmable is a computer.

        • Curbina

          I also thought in Raspberry pi as the alternative to the Arduinos.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Some of the E-Cats could be spare parts which are built-in from the start in order to facilitate maintenance. The controllers (“computers”) should be placed apart from the reactors, so that you would only have to replug the connections if one of the E-Cats fails.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Are they using Arduinos?

    103 E-Cats and 100 computers is very curious. I would have expected 103 computers and 100 E-Cats. One computer for each kitty and a triple redundant master. Maybe his count of computers was not exact.

    When they have a theory which matches the standard model, will science listen?
    Or will they wait to be humiliated when there is commercial success and a theory which they never acknowledged.

    There is something similar going on in Astronomy right now with the electric theory of comets.
    All the close up comet pictures show what looks like a single solid dry scorched cathode. While the astronomers stick to their dirty snowball theory of comets. Science is becoming so institutionalized that it will soon require a straight jacket and sedation.

    • Paul Smith

      Probably 3 E-Cats are spares (not working)

    • Curbina

      Ophelia, we have enough with the LENR huge polemic by the moment, please don’t open a new can of worms with summoning the plasma cosmology huge polemic into the debate!

      • Ophelia Rump

        I am just waiting for they day they have to consider the possibility the Grand Canyon was carved by electrical discharge!

        Was that subversive?

        • Freethinker

          +1 for a smart comment, 😉
          but I think Curbina to be right. Let’s focus on LENR and ECAT.

        • Charles

          Ophelia, see the Dr Walt Brown theory on how the Grand Canyon was formed in the Noah’s Flood process as described by Dr. Brown.
          Verry Interestink.

        • psi2u2

          Terribly. 😉

        • Curbina

          Borderline outrageous, indeed, but the good kind of outrageous.

        • HarryD

          Or that the volume of earth is growing and an LENR based nuclear proces is heating the core of it…

    • timycelyn

      Interestingly, it seems that Rossi’s post may have been updated to include the ‘about 100 computers’ phrase. I normally don’t go to the blog itself (a bit difficult to be sure I’m catching it all) and so I use the abstracting site http://www.rossilivecat.com. The post on that site does not have that piece of information in it:

      “Obviously this effort is shared by all the Team, in particular the electronic engineers, who are making a masterpiece to harmonize an orchestra of 103 E-Cats with a quite complex play of Cats and Mice. This wonderful Team is writing a page of History; every component of this Team is working at the maximum of his capacity.”

      The original blog does, however.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      My institute has instruments on Rosetta, but I haven’t heard of electric theory of comets – could you give a link or reference?

    • Timar

      Sometimes it’s hard to make sense out of Rossi comments. I’d assume that there are 100 ICs (“computers”) controlling 100 E-Cats and 3 redundant reactors. In case a reactor is defunct, the IC is switched to control one of the redundant reactors. (Simple ICs usually don’t fail but the reactors may very well do).

      • Ophelia Rump

        I had considered that, but then I started to imagine total redundancy and the image was too horrific to deal with.

    • I guess he’s talking about normal computers (notebooks) which are recording measurement data and automatically analyzing it to enhance the control system. I can’t imagine that the control algorithm is such complex that 100 cpus have to be used to manage the computing load. A few raspberry pis in a cluster could do that.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        I would rather expect that they use identical circuit boards for each reactor. These boards could integrate a relatively simple control circuit and a triac-like component that adapts the electric input. Maybe they need as well an individual regulation of the coolant flow. One central computer could be used to control the overall parameters. It would also provide the user interface.

      • bachcole

        I agree 100%

      • Pekka Janhunen

        I would think that he might call a raspberry pi a computer. To a programmer, everything programmable is a computer.

        • Curbina

          I also thought in Raspberry pi as the alternative to the Arduinos.

    • Simone

      it has been stated before at the conference held in italy that there are 103 e-cats because there are 3 units off for backup purposes.. so 100 ecats running with 100 on board cpus which they seem to call computers..

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Some of the E-Cats could be spare parts which are built-in from the start in order to facilitate maintenance. The controllers (“computers”) should be placed apart from the reactors, so that you would only have to replug the connections if one of the E-Cats fails.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    The 1MW baby is everything. They’ll never listen to the theory. Is it true that Julian Schwinger’s biography was reedited to remove any references to his support for cold fusion? The quality of the report doesn’t matter. The marbled institutions with the help of their interlocking directorates with the MSM will never admit that they set LEAR back a quarter of a century.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Pardon me. LENR
      Although the marbled institutions are a bit like King Lear.

      • Ophelia Rump

        LEAR works. Disowned for unsanctioned answer.

        Lear, the aging king of Britain, decides to step down from the throne and divide his kingdom evenly among his three daughters. First, however, he puts his daughters through a test, asking each to tell him how much she loves him. Goneril and Regan, Lear’s older daughters, give their father flattering answers. But Cordelia, Lear’s youngest and favorite daughter, remains silent, saying that she has no words to describe how much she loves her father. Lear flies into a rage and disowns Cordelia. The king of France, who has courted Cordelia, says that he still wants to marry her even without her land, and she accompanies him to France without her father’s blessing.

        • GreenWin

          But wait… there’s more, right?

      • Pekka Janhunen

        I hope in the future we have Lenrjets instead of Learjets. By the way I in principle hate all acronyms, including LENR, because acronyms are untranslatable. So I say cold fusion.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    The 1MW baby is everything. They’ll never listen to the theory. Is it true that Julian Schwinger’s biography was reedited to remove any references to his support for cold fusion? The quality of the report doesn’t matter. The marbled institutions with the help of their interlocking directorates with the MSM will never admit that they set LEAR back a quarter of a century.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      Pardon me. LENR
      Although the marbled institutions are a bit like King Lear.

      • Ophelia Rump

        LEAR works. Disowned for unsanctioned answer.

        Lear, the aging king of Britain, decides to step down from the throne and divide his kingdom evenly among his three daughters. First, however, he puts his daughters through a test, asking each to tell him how much she loves him. Goneril and Regan, Lear’s older daughters, give their father flattering answers. But Cordelia, Lear’s youngest and favorite daughter, remains silent, saying that she has no words to describe how much she loves her father. Lear flies into a rage and disowns Cordelia. The king of France, who has courted Cordelia, says that he still wants to marry her even without her land, and she accompanies him to France without her father’s blessing.

        • GreenWin

          But wait… there’s more, right?

      • Pekka Janhunen

        I hope in the future we have Lenrjets instead of Learjets. By the way I in principle hate all acronyms, including LENR, because acronyms are untranslatable. So I say cold fusion.

  • Gerard McEk

    I have no idea why so many ‘computers’ are needed. Maybe Rossi means ‘controllers’ or PLC’s or remote IO units of PLC’s (all of which include microprocessors nowadays). A few central computers with a simple SCADA program may be used to collect all the data and to present it. If the unit produces a megawatt, one Ecat is 10 kW again (three spare), five times as much as the one tested in Lugano. I wonder how these Ecats look like. Assume they all run at 1400 deg C, how would the heat be extracted?

    • Fortyniner

      That seems very likely (PLCs/SCADA).

      Two possible methods for heat extraction occur: (1) one or two boilers or heat exchange tanks with multiple flanged blind housings bolted into the sides and bottom, each containing an alumina reactor spaced slightly away from the metal walls to avoid over-cooling, or (2) a ‘firebox’ containing all the unclad reactors in some kind of rack, exposed to a forced, recirculating airflow which then passes through a conventional multi-tube boiler before returning to the firebox.

      • GreenWin

        Unclad reactors on a rack raises thermal control concerns. LENR seems very sensitive to even slight temp change. On the other hand, with discreet controllers for each reactor, this may not be an issue. Any thoughts on how to design an E-Cat heated Stirling?? I would imagine Dean Kamen has some ideas.

        • Donk970

          I wondered about that too. Purchase an off the shelf Stirling engine designed with a gas fired combustion chamber and just modify the fire box to take unclad e-cats. Even if the thermal efficiency is crap if the thing will generate electricity in a self sustaining mode it would be something that could be plunked down in a parking lot and used to run something electrical. Great demo device which is exactly what IH needs right now.

          • GreenWin

            Same page Donk. But IH does not need more headaches from public demos. They’ve got a dozen under belt at least. They need to do the diplomatic work to get over the geopolitical hurdles the validations have created. It is unlikely that Tom Darden is prepared or able to do this alone. However, there are highly experienced entities who are willing and able to assist.

            The technology is proven. Next is geopolitical – a thornier problem even than fusion.

          • Donk970

            I think what’s been missing so far is an actual electric power generating device. I think a lot of nay-sayers would have to shut up if they could walk up to something that was sitting there creating electricity with no input from the grid. As far as validations go I agree completely. I think a big part of IH talking to the PRC has to do with getting this thing into production quickly without a lot of political red tape. At the end of the day everything will boil down to political red tape rather than legitimate safety concerns.

        • Fortyniner

          I suspect that the former configuration is more likely (Rossi seems to like very basic engineering, with the subtleties embedded in design detail) but the firebox arrangement would probably give better control over rate of heat extraction. Because the air recirculates, flow rates could easily be adjusted (ceramic fan(s) under thermostatic control) to maintain the required operating temp. The boiler would be passive, i.e., heat transfer rate entirely controlled by air speed.

          Such a ‘firebox’ would be analogous to a gas furnace and so might offer good ‘retrofit’ possibilities. The only major mod would be connecting the (insulated) flue back to the firebox air feed fan for recirculation.

          For a Stirling engine it would be necessary to provide a thermal store enclosing the hot end – perhaps an iron mass with the hot cylinder bored centrally and a ring of smaller bore holes for mini-reactors, or alternatively a side-by-side arrangement. Adjusting the parameters (cylinder bore/stroke, reactor no/bore size and overall thermal mass) would provide any desired performance characteristic required, with the usual limitations of the SE design.

        • Fortyniner

          GW – I did reply (at length!) but my comment has disappeared and I can’t really be *rsed to repeat it.

  • Gerard McEk

    I have no idea why so many ‘computers’ are needed. Maybe Rossi means ‘controllers’ or PLC’s or remote IO units of PLC’s (all of which include microprocessors nowadays). A few central computers with a simple SCADA program may be used to collect all the data and to present it. If the unit produces a megawatt, one Ecat is 10 kW again (three spare), five times as much as the one tested in Lugano. I wonder how these Ecats look like. Assume they all run at 1400 deg C, how would the heat be extracted?

    • That seems very likely (PLCs/SCADA and 3 backup units).

      A couple of possible methods for heat extraction: (1) one or two boilers or heat exchange tanks with multiple flanged blind housings bolted into the sides and bottom, each containing an alumina reactor spaced slightly away from the metal walls to avoid over-cooling, or (2) a closed ‘firebox’ containing all the unclad reactors in some kind of rack, exposed to a forced, recirculating airflow which then passes through a conventional multi-tube boiler before returning to the firebox.

      • GreenWin

        Unclad reactors on a rack raises thermal control concerns. LENR seems very sensitive to even slight temp change. On the other hand, with discreet controllers for each reactor, this may not be an issue. Any thoughts on how to design an E-Cat heated Stirling?? I would imagine Dean Kamen has some ideas.

        • Donk970

          I wondered about that too. Purchase an off the shelf Stirling engine designed with a gas fired combustion chamber and just modify the fire box to take unclad e-cats. Even if the thermal efficiency is crap if the thing will generate electricity in a self sustaining mode it would be something that could be plunked down in a parking lot and used to run something electrical. Great demo device which is exactly what IH needs right now.

          • GreenWin

            Same page Donk. But IH does not need more headaches from public demos. They’ve got a dozen under belt at least. They need to do the diplomatic work to get over the geopolitical hurdles the validations have created. It is unlikely that Tom Darden is prepared or able to do this alone. However, there are highly experienced entities who are willing and able to assist.

            The technology is proven. Next is geopolitical – a thornier problem even than fusion.

          • Donk970

            I think what’s been missing so far is an actual electric power generating device. I think a lot of nay-sayers would have to shut up if they could walk up to something that was sitting there creating electricity with no input from the grid. As far as validations go I agree completely. I think a big part of IH talking to the PRC has to do with getting this thing into production quickly without a lot of political red tape. At the end of the day everything will boil down to political red tape rather than legitimate safety concerns.

        • I suspect that the former configuration is more likely (Rossi seems to like very basic engineering, with the subtleties embedded in design detail) but the firebox arrangement would probably give better control over rate of heat extraction. Because the air recirculates, flow rate and hence cooling could easily be adjusted (ceramic fan(s) under thermostatic control) to maintain the required operating temp. The boiler would be passive, i.e., heat transfer rate entirely controlled by air speed.

          Such a ‘firebox’ would be analogous to a gas furnace and so might offer good ‘retrofit’ possibilities. The only major mod would be connecting the (insulated) exhaust/flue back to the firebox air feed fan for recirculation. Perhaps Rossi’s experiments with gas turbines had more to do with recirculating very hot gases than with power extraction? (i.e. using electrically driven turbines to create very high flow rates)

          For a Stirling engine it would be necessary to provide a thermal store enclosing the hot end to avoid intermittent over-cooling as the cooled operating medium is returned for re-heating. Maybe an insulated cylindrical lump of cast iron with the hot cylinder bored centrally and an outer ring of smaller bore holes for mini-reactors, or perhaps alternatively a side-by-side arrangement. Adjusting the parameters (cylinder bore/stroke, reactor no/bore size and overall thermal mass) would provide any desired performance characteristic required, within the usual envelope of the SE design.

        • GW – I did reply (at length!) but my comment has disappeared and I can’t really be *rsed to try to remember it. I’ve asked Admin to reinstate the comment.

    • kasom

      The plant is LOW Temp e-cat Rossi said month ago afaik.

      • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

        Isn’t the cat-mouse config hot cat only?

        • kasom

          “Andrea Rossi
          October 21st, 2014 at 6:34 AM

          Andre Blum:

          The 1MW plant is similar to the one tested in October 2012.

          Warm Regards,

          A.R.”

        • kasom

          Andrea Rossi

          October 21st, 2014 at 6:34 AM

          Andre Blum:

          The 1MW plant is similar to the one tested in October 2012.

          Warm Regards,

          A.R.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Thanks kasom. That means the 1MW plant has been updated with low-temp mouse-cat e-cat reactors. I did not even know low temp mouse-cat reactors did exist. I can only assume that the mouse-cat combination does wonders for the COP, otherwise I don’t really understand why you would need these type op reactors for the low temp 1MW plant.

        • Omega Z

          Rossi stated that the cat-mouse config will be incorporated into all E-cats.

  • mcloki

    it’s an experimental device, dont get hung up on the number of computers. Refinement and economy happen after the device works.

  • mcloki

    it’s an experimental device, dont get hung up on the number of computers. Refinement and economy happen after the device works.

  • US_Citizen71

    The 100 computers (controllers) makes complete sense if part of the goal of the plant is to get run time data for safety certification. The setup would allow testing and provide data on the reliability of 100 complete 10kw reactors. If a more complex controller made to handle more than one ECAT was used it would be harder to claim safety and reliability of the controller for a home 10kw ECAT.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Inexpensive controllers on a chip and no single point of failure.

      • Donk970

        Something like a small Arduino for each reactor core.

        • not even arduino (anyway why not, except need rugherized), but classic Atmel series…
          did you know there is superfact controllers able to do FFT , just in powersupply to correct current harmonics and powerfactor…

          saying computer is a bit abusive.
          I imagine it is hundred of controllers, and yes it is a good idea.
          probably they communicate through a bus, but the system may be even more reliable if they can avoid communicating , except by heat.

          it is like programming a cell automaton, a digital ant….
          maybe the e-cat can enforce a self-sustain mode with a low duty cycle because neighbours can heat.

          maybe they can do that with a kind of stadium wave…

          I speculate… or maybe is is simply independent controllers working like the lone e-cat of Lugano.

          • US_Citizen71

            ‘I speculate… or maybe is is simply independent controllers working like the lone e-cat of Lugano.’

            I think that might be the case in this design. If IH wants to sell ECATs to places outside of a factory environment they need thousands of hours of data to get a safety certification. The data needs to be on not just the ECAT module itself but the control electronics as well. The best way to get that is to use the same controller you would use in a home/non-industrial environment to control each module in the test/current 1MW plant. I believe a safety certification company won’t care if the on switch is mechanical or a relay, or if any indicator lights are attached by 1 foot or 50 ft of wire. So the control panel could be multiple copies of what would be used on a single 10kW unit mounted together on one big panel.

    • Frechette

      My haunch is Rossi is talking about embedded systems when he mentions over 100 computers. This would make sense from a technical stand point. There is probably also one central computer operating in a supervisory role to keep track of the status of each E-cat for safety reasons.

  • US_Citizen71

    The 100 computers (controllers) makes complete sense if part of the goal of the plant is to get run time data for safety certification. The setup would allow testing and provide data on the reliability of 100 complete 10kw reactors. If a more complex controller made to handle more than one ECAT was used it would be harder to claim safety and reliability of the controller for a home 10kw ECAT.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Inexpensive controllers on a chip and no single point of failure.

      • Donk970

        Something like a small Arduino for each reactor core.

        • not even arduino (anyway why not, except need rugherized), but classic Atmel series…
          did you know there is superfact controllers able to do FFT , just in powersupply to correct current harmonics and powerfactor…

          saying computer is a bit abusive.
          I imagine it is hundred of controllers, and yes it is a good idea.
          probably they communicate through a bus, but the system may be even more reliable if they can avoid communicating , except by heat.

          it is like programming a cell automaton, a digital ant….
          maybe the e-cat can enforce a self-sustain mode with a low duty cycle because neighbours can heat.

          maybe they can do that with a kind of stadium wave…

          I speculate… or maybe is is simply independent controllers working like the lone e-cat of Lugano.

          • US_Citizen71

            ‘I speculate… or maybe is is simply independent controllers working like the lone e-cat of Lugano.’

            I think that might be the case in this design. If IH wants to sell ECATs to places outside of a factory environment they need thousands of hours of data to get a safety certification. The data needs to be on not just the ECAT module itself but the control electronics as well. The best way to get that is to use the same controller you would use in a home/non-industrial environment to control each module in the test/current 1MW plant. I believe a safety certification company won’t care if the on switch is mechanical or a relay, or if any indicator lights are attached by 1 foot or 50 ft of wire. So the control panel could be multiple copies of what would be used on a single 10kW unit mounted together on one big panel.

    • Frechette

      My haunch is Rossi is talking about embedded systems when he mentions over 100 computers. This would make sense from a technical stand point. There is probably also one central computer operating in a supervisory role to keep track of the status of each E-cat for safety reasons.

  • Bob

    I hope that IH or the customer makes a public announcement this year regarding the plant. Let’s face it… a company will never open it’s doors to the general public to view a plant. They may allow a few select individuals to see it, but not the public. Safety and liability concerns will certainly stop that, much less disruption to production, which is why a company exists.

    I am encouraged by both of the reports and will especially be interested in seeing the report updates that are said to be in response to reasonable criticism. Hopefully that will be very enlightening and even add more concrete to the foundation of the report.

    However… unfortunately I do not put much confidence in Rossi’s posts about the plant. I have been burned too often in the past….:(

    1) The robotized factory was a magnificence
    2) Home Depot was to be selling home units in 2012
    3) 13(?) prior 1 MW plants where a magnificence with one customer allowing visits by 1st quarter 2012.
    4) A public plant in Europe was to open in 2013

    I am not saying that Rossi is a fraud or intentionally deceiving, he seems to just get carried away by his dreams or something and becomes overly optimistic. The home units not being available due to safety is understandable, but if the technology was available for home units in 2012, we should have seen it in wide spread industrial use by now. He has shown a safety certification obtained on the “cool cat”, so if it was reliably working then, it would have been in use now.

    I like Rossi and his enthusiasm, but I have grown not to put much confidence in his announcements of magnificence. Hopefully this time the plant unveiling will happen, but until I hear Industrial Heat or the customer make a press release, I will not put much weight to it. While most of Rossi’s claims on tests have more or less been proven true, none of the unveilings have. Let’s hope this is the “big one”, revealed by IH or the customer and this year! 🙂

    • GreenWin

      Bob, don’t get rattled by inconsistencies. Entrepreneurs are prone to exaggeration. They are gamers, as are pathoskeptics and agents. It’s all illusion and game play courtesy of misguided higher intelligence. Have fun!

    • Joniale

      I totally agree with your comment. We should not be so happy about Rossi statements. In fact we should request Rossi some official stetement from the company he work for. IH.
      The company should have a roadmap and that should be public. Rossi is not the CEO anymore sohe cannot state that. The previous examples you mention are the proof that Rossi tends to be much optimistic. I just hope he is not so with his scientific statements. His bad predictions doesnt help to trust him. But sure helps us to keep us wishing for more.

      • GreenWin

        Joniale – best way to avoid distrust and bad predictions is to stay away, and stop wishing for what is not real.

    • Omega Z

      Bob

      Overly optimistic & over confidence is the trademark of those who accomplish great things. True, it is sometimes their downfall. Being under the wing of Industrial Heat greatly enhances Rossi being successful.

      On the other hand, those who continuously doubt themselves seldom accomplish anything beyond procrastination.

      I believe Rossi thought getting certification for home units would be difficult, but doable. It wasn’t.

      Rossi has actually spoke of over optimism on time lines in this statement overlooked by most. “Time gets away from me.” His optimistic followers miss these little cues. They just don’t want to hear it, therefore it doesn’t register. This is actually understandable on their part.

      I believe the Lt-Cat is close to marketable, But many chained together is still R&D. Thus we see the pilot plant. As to the 2013 plan, Those were in early stage arrangements, but all that came to a stop with the Rossi/Industrial Heat sale of the technology. Still, that would have also been of a pilot plant project.

      As to “revealed by IH or the customer and this year!”
      Don’t hold your breath. Rossi said about 12 to 14 months. That leaves about 12 months to go. Mid 2015 would be a target date to start watching for such a disclosure. Tho I wouldn’t mind being pleasantly surprised if it took place by next spring.

  • Bob

    I hope that IH or the customer makes a public announcement this year regarding the plant. Let’s face it… a company will never open it’s doors to the general public to view a plant. They may allow a few select individuals to see it, but not the public. Safety and liability concerns will certainly stop that, much less disruption to production, which is why a company exists.

    I am encouraged by both of the reports and will especially be interested in seeing the report updates that are said to be in response to reasonable criticism. Hopefully that will be very enlightening and even add more concrete to the foundation of the report.

    However… unfortunately I do not put much confidence in Rossi’s posts about the plant. I have been burned too often in the past….:(

    1) The robotized factory was a magnificence
    2) Home Depot was to be selling home units in 2012
    3) 13(?) prior 1 MW plants where a magnificence with one customer allowing visits by 1st quarter 2012.
    4) A public plant in Europe was to open in 2013

    I am not saying that Rossi is a fraud or intentionally deceiving, he seems to just get carried away by his dreams or something and becomes overly optimistic. The home units not being available due to safety is understandable, but if the technology was available for home units in 2012, we should have seen it in wide spread industrial use by now. He has shown a safety certification obtained on the “cool cat”, so if it was reliably working then, it would have been in use now.

    I like Rossi and his enthusiasm, but I have grown not to put much confidence in his announcements of magnificence. Hopefully this time the plant unveiling will happen, but until I hear Industrial Heat or the customer make a press release, I will not put much weight to it. While most of Rossi’s claims on tests have more or less been proven true, none of the unveilings have. Let’s hope this is the “big one”, revealed by IH or the customer and this year! 🙂

    • GreenWin

      Bob, don’t get rattled by inconsistencies. Entrepreneurs are prone to exaggeration. They are gamers, as are pathoskeptics and agents. It’s all illusion and game play courtesy of misguided higher intelligence. Have fun!

    • Joniale

      I totally agree with your comment. We should not be so happy about Rossi statements. In fact we should request Rossi some official stetement from the company he work for. IH.
      The company should have a roadmap and that should be public. Rossi is not the CEO anymore sohe cannot state that. The previous examples you mention are the proof that Rossi tends to be much optimistic. I just hope he is not so with his scientific statements. His bad predictions doesnt help to trust him. But sure helps us to keep us wishing for more.

      • GreenWin

        Joniale – best way to avoid distrust and bad predictions is to stay away, and stop wishing for what is not real.

    • Omega Z

      Bob

      Overly optimistic & over confidence is the trademark of those who accomplish great things. True, it is sometimes their downfall. Being under the wing of Industrial Heat greatly enhances Rossi being successful.

      On the other hand, those who continuously doubt themselves seldom accomplish anything beyond procrastination.

      I believe Rossi thought getting certification for home units would be difficult, but doable. It wasn’t.

      Rossi has actually spoke of over optimism on time lines in this statement overlooked by most. “Time gets away from me.” His optimistic followers miss these little cues. They just don’t want to hear it, therefore it doesn’t register. This is actually understandable on their part.

      I believe the Lt-Cat is close to marketable, But many chained together is still R&D. Thus we see the pilot plant. As to the 2013 plan, Those were in early stage arrangements, but all that came to a stop with the Rossi/Industrial Heat sale of the technology. Still, that would have also been of a pilot plant project.

      As to “revealed by IH or the customer and this year!”
      Don’t hold your breath. Rossi said about 12 to 14 months. That leaves about 12 months to go. Mid 2015 would be a target date to start watching for such a disclosure. Tho I wouldn’t mind being pleasantly surprised if it took place by next spring.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I had considered that, but then I started to imagine total redundancy and the image was too horrific to deal with.

  • Robyn Wyrick

    Whenever Rossi makes a statement like this, it appears to be to be a stake in the heart of doubt that the E-Cat is genuine.

    The thing is, we could dismiss him if he was some guy at the top of his own company, making a claim like “an orchestra of 103 E-Cats with a quite complex play of Cats and Mice; the control system is made by about 100 computers”.

    Heck, I can make that claim about my company – who is going to stop me?

    But Rossi isn’t the CEO of IH. It was one thing to imagine Rossi was a fraud when he came out of the woodwork in 2011. He was making a big claim, and very few saw what he was doing. But everything changed when Darden confirmed that IH had bought Rossi’s IP and hired Rossi on staff.

    Now, to believe the E-Cat to be an elaborate fraud, you have to believe that, not only is Rossi a fraud, but he is the most inventive fraud in history. He works all day long beside any number of other scientists and engineers, and yet none of them see Rossi’s clever slight of hand. He makes very expansive public statements, and yet Darden never seems to have reason to stop him or retract any claim. The two different, independent tests produce incredible results, even though the two different E-Cat tested look *very* different (is Rossi always tweaking his clever ruse, and yet never being caught?)

    And to this last point: recall the original E-Cat? How different did that look from the original Hot-Cat? And how different from the current model? Rossi must have an endless array of undetectable means to produce false results that nobody on his team can detect.

    And it is striking that his results keep tracking with those reported by other LENR researchers. You have to marvel how many people are in on Rossi’s scam.

    • bachcole

      You are drawing conclusions from social evidence, and I agree with you 100%, and I like what you are saying. But skeptopaths are so social unaware that these kinds of insights of yours mean nothing to them.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        Being unable or unwilling to use social evidence is indeed, as you have pointed out also before, a characteristic shared by some pathologically sceptical persons. But on the other hand a pathosceptic is, almost by definition, very much socially aware of what the majority thinks and feels obliged to conform. At first sight these two traits would seem to contradict.

        Maybe a person whose is vulnerable to pathological scepticism has difficulties in looking at other people’s behaviour as an external observer and instead is a member of the society in a more profound and organic way.

        • psi2u2

          Good analysis. The “society” confers significant benefits on these “skeptics” before – in an actual paradigm shift – dumping them as useless fools. The society preaches “think outside the box,” but punishes anyone who actually does so to any significant degree.

      • Frechette

        Maryyugo is now bad mouthing Darden and IH along with Rossi of course. In the same paragraph he is offering his services for a fee of course to set Darden straight. Go figure!

        • bitplayer

          Delusions are inexhaustable

          • this is the end…
            but it hurts much progress of awareness by the masses and the corps

          • bitplayer

            Sentient beings are numberless

        • Omega Z

          Yet not that long ago when confronted, Mary Yugo admitted to not having the expertise to judge an E-cat test should he be invited to do so.
          He would need a proxy to fill in. Go Figure.

          Imagine judging such a technology as to rather it is real or not tho ones only claim to expertise is playing badly in the sand box.

    • deleo77

      This cuts to the chase. There are outside investors in IH and Cherokee. If AR were making blatantly false statements concerning product development and rollout, and Darden did nothing to impede that, I think both Darden and Vaughn could be implicated for fraud as much as anyone. They seem like professional, straight-shooters to me who would not let something like that happen. That said, I understand IH is in stealth mode but it would be nice to see a basic website from them.

      • Daniel Maris

        Indeed IH could remove a lot of doubts and puzzles. But as you say, they must be aware of what Rossi says, and so their silence amounts to some degree of support for what he says.

        • deleo77

          They are definitely aware. Rossi’s blog is viewed my many, and I am sure they personally check it regularly, (and this site as well). To have a public record of false written statements like that would hold them libel as officers of the company. I do believe that what Rossi is saying about the current development of the e-cat is true. I don’t think Darden and Vaughn would let him make regular public false statements such as this if he wasn’t accurate with his comments. So the plant will likely be installed for the customer in the near future (if some of it hasn’t been already). Let’s just all hope it works.

          • Omega Z

            The pilot plant has already been installed in a customers facilities. Thus Rossi’s primary focus at this time.

    • psi2u2

      Indeed, Ing. Rossi must be the quintessence of deception. He fools everyone except those who have never been near a working reactor, who easily see through him and pronounce a fraud, a fraud. Those poor souls like Dardan and Essen who have been taken in by him……/irony off.

  • Rafael

    hey admin, maybe the sun is the product of a lenr, ask to andrea rossi why he not try to mix the same chemical elements that has in the sun to see if he not create an artificial sun or get electricity with less chemical elements, we already know what the sun is made of. you would be accelerating our knowledge.

    • Ophelia Rump

      That sounds so promising, you should save the idea for yourself!
      Good luck with that.

      • Rafael

        I not found the part where say they are working on my idea!!

    • GreenWin

      Actually Rafael, chemo-nuclear energy – a likely source of E-Cat energy – is far denser than even our Sun. But think on this: IF humans could create an artificial sun… imagine what aliens could create! 🙂

  • Robyn Wyrick

    Whenever Rossi makes a statement like this, it appears to be to be a stake in the heart of doubt that the E-Cat is genuine.

    The thing is, we could dismiss him if he was some guy at the top of his own company, making a claim like “an orchestra of 103 E-Cats with a quite complex play of Cats and Mice; the control system is made by about 100 computers”.

    Heck, I can make that claim about my company – who is going to stop me?

    But Rossi isn’t the CEO of IH. It was one thing to imagine Rossi was a fraud when he came out of the woodwork in 2011. He was making a big claim, and very few saw what he was doing. But everything changed when Darden confirmed that IH had bought Rossi’s IP and hired Rossi on staff.

    Now, to believe the E-Cat to be an elaborate fraud, you have to believe that, not only is Rossi a fraud, but he is the most inventive fraud in history. He works all day long beside any number of other scientists and engineers, and yet none of them see Rossi’s clever slight of hand. He makes very expansive public statements, and yet Darden never seems to have reason to stop him or retract any claim. The two different, independent tests produce incredible results, even though the two different E-Cat tested look *very* different (is Rossi always tweaking his clever ruse, and yet never being caught?)

    And to this last point: recall the original E-Cat? How different did that look from the original Hot-Cat? And how different from the current model? Rossi must have an endless array of undetectable means to produce false results that nobody on his team can detect.

    And it is striking that his results keep tracking with those reported by other LENR researchers. You have to marvel how many people are in on Rossi’s scam.

    • bachcole

      You are drawing conclusions from social evidence, and I agree with you 100%, and I like what you are saying. But skeptopaths are so social unaware that these kinds of insights of yours mean nothing to them.

      • Pekka Janhunen

        Being unable or unwilling to use social evidence is indeed, as you have pointed out also before, a characteristic shared by some pathologically sceptical persons. But on the other hand a pathosceptic is, almost by definition, very much socially aware of what the majority thinks and feels obliged to conform. At first sight these two traits would seem to contradict.

        Maybe a person whose is vulnerable to pathological scepticism has difficulties in looking at other people’s behaviour as an external observer and instead is a member of the society in a more profound and organic way.

        • psi2u2

          Good analysis. The “society” confers significant benefits on these “skeptics” before – in an actual paradigm shift – dumping them as useless fools. The society preaches “think outside the box,” but punishes anyone who actually does so to any significant degree.

        • bachcole

          It is easy as pie to read what the majority is saying. I would also think that there is a sort of authoritarianism involved and a belonging: “Hey I am part of the in-crowd, and you’re stupid.”

      • Frechette

        Maryyugo is now bad mouthing Darden and IH along with Rossi of course. In the same paragraph he is offering his services for a fee of course to set Darden straight. Go figure!

        • Where’s this Frechette?

        • Omega Z

          Yet not that long ago when confronted, Mary Yugo admitted to not having the expertise to judge an E-cat test should he be invited to do so.
          He would need a proxy to fill in. Go Figure.

          Imagine judging such a technology as to rather it is real or not tho ones only claim to expertise is playing badly in the sand box.

          • bachcole

            I do not have the expertise (or opportunity) to judge an E-Cat test. So I had several proxies who judged the E-Cat test for me, twice: Kullander, Levi, Essen, Foschi, Hartman, Höistad, Pettersson, and Tegnér.

            So I think that maryyugo, even in this admission is lying. What he/she should have said was that he/she needed a proxy to declare the E-Cat unreal. Or, a little more charitably, he/she needs someone that he/she KNEW personally and could trust.

    • deleo77

      This cuts to the chase. There are outside investors in IH and Cherokee. If AR were making blatantly false statements concerning product development and rollout, and Darden did nothing to impede that, I think both Darden and Vaughn could be implicated for fraud as much as anyone. They seem like professional, straight-shooters to me who would not let something like that happen. That said, I understand IH is in stealth mode but it would be nice to see a basic website from them.

    • psi2u2

      Indeed, Ing. Rossi must be the quintessence of deception. He fools everyone except those who have never been near a working reactor, who easily see through him and pronounce a fraud, a fraud. Those poor souls like Dardan and Essen who have been taken in by him……/irony off.

    • David Dow

      Good points!

    • Leo Kaas

      Robyn, my thoughts exactly. Back in 2011, I could see why people would automatically think the E-Cat is a scam. Now that his IP has been bought by Industrial Heat, why is he still putting himself out there to be a target of extreme animosity? The naysayers said that he would disappear to some tropical island after he got some money for his scam, he is still here. Would a scam artist take a job with the company he scammed out of 25 million dollars? No. Rossi hasn’t done anything that the naysayers claim a scam artist would do.

    • DickeFix

      The reason why nuclear scientists have a hard time to believe that the E-Cat works is because they have knowledge and experience of nuclear physics. It is the same reason why children believe in ghosts while adults wouldn´t believe their eyes even if they saw one.

      None can say for sure if the E-Cat is a real “ghost” or not, but it is easier to be a believer if you are ignorant of the current theory of nuclear physics. Its natural!

      • US_Citizen71

        The key is ‘current theory of nuclear physics’, that is theory not law(s) of nuclear physics. The problem is not that his device challenges a theory or three, the problem is Rossi isn’t a tenured professor at big named science university or working at something like CERN. Theories were meant to be challenged. That is their whole point in science. When nothing is able to prove them wrong for long enough we consider them laws. But until then they are fair game.

      • Omega Z

        Actually, the Physicists have their own toys & see LENR as a threat to their long term funding health. If LENR breaks out, their research Wont End, But it will be seriously degraded. Mush less funding & far fewer Physicists employed in that field of research. This in a field that they believe is under funded to begin with. Like everyone else, they need employment to earn a living, to pay student loans & provide for their families.

        There is little doubt that should LENR come to market, ITER will quickly be defunded as will any other such projects. Billion$ will become Million$ only in support of basic research. Construction of or planning of new Nuclear power plants will come to a stand still. This has got to be very concerning for many Physicists. Especially in a field that has more trained people then jobs available to them.

        The smart money would be aimed at diverting the youngest of theses people towards LENR research. Preparing to fill the void in LENR research while reducing the employee pool for conventional physics research of which there is a surplus of people.

      • Gerrit

        JoNP Rossi: “As Prof. Focardi teached to me, to understand LENR we have not to invent new Physics, we have just to study better the Standard Model…. I am deeply convinced that it is in the Standard model that we have to find a reconciliation. Obviously, as you know, I am perfectly aware of the fact that a theory is made to be overcome, but I do not think this is the case.”

        I think the nuclear physicists are so convinced of their understanding of the theory that they only look for interesting things in places where they expect such interesting things can be found. They have build huge and expensive tools that let them look at two body systems. I am not aware of a comparable effort with multi body systems.

        Imagine a forester (=physicist) who is convinced he knows his forest (=theory) inside out. He will frequently go to certain places in his forest to see if anything interesting is happening. He will not visit other parts of his forest, because he is convinced there is nothing of interest there and he doesn’t get paid (=funding) to just wander about in his forest.

        You can complete the story of what happens when somebody, who is not a forester, claims there is something interesting happening after all.

  • Rafael

    hey admin, maybe the sun is the product of a lenr, ask to andrea rossi why he not try to mix the same chemical elements that has in the sun to see if he not create an artificial sun or get electricity with less chemical elements, we already know what the sun is made of. you would be accelerating our knowledge.

    • Ophelia Rump

      That sounds so promising, you should save the idea for yourself!
      Good luck with that.

      I did some digging and sadly people are already working on the idea before you. They have not had much success.

      http://experimentalmath.info/blog/2014/10/fusion-energy-hope-or-hype/

      The section on this site called Fusion Energy goes explains very nicely. You would enjoy the read.

      • Rafael

        why?

        • Ophelia Rump

          They are working on trying to reproduce the sun in a lab.
          Without a theory of how LENR works, I don’t think they can tell if LENR is even a part of how the sun works.
          If I understand correctly it is not enough to just mix the chemicals, you need to make it hot enough to start and then keep it bottled up without touching the walls of the device, It gets very hot and burns through anything.

          It is your idea they are describing the fusion of the sun, plus what they discovered that they have to do to make it work. It is not enough to make the sun in a bottle, you have to keep it in there.

      • Rafael

        I not found the part where say they are working on my idea!!

    • GreenWin

      Actually Rafael, chemo-nuclear energy – a likely source of E-Cat energy – is far denser than even our Sun. But think on this: IF humans could create an artificial sun… imagine what aliens could create! 🙂

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    Isn’t the cat-mouse config hot cat only?

    • Omega Z

      Rossi stated that the cat-mouse config will be incorporated into all E-cats.

  • Yu Chem

    From what I see, the IH e-cat business gets finally on roll.
    It is a couple of last messages signed by Rossi that look different, they are stylish end expiring. Very optimistic in nature, I am pretty sure, there is now a PR person behind them.
    (this and caps lock down 🙂

  • Sylvie Cemoi

    If it works, why don’t they begin mass production?
    Andrea Rossi said a long time ago (2 years ago?) that he has an automized (or robotized?) mass production line ready. So what happened?

    • GreenWin

      Sylvie, we here are well aware of the rote ad hominem complaints about production lines and robots. Please understand robotic complaints do not constitute worthy critique. You might want to join more adroit skeptics at EC-W.

      Oh, and I shall add that many supporters of Dr. Rossi and LENR do so because we have been waiting 60 years for “clean, unlimited fusion energy” which has cost taxpayers globally $250B and produced not one single Watt of useful energy. What happened?

    • Andre Blum

      Sylvie,
      Rossi was and is a serial entrepreneur in startup mode. He did and does what everyone does in that situation: make things look much more professional, advanced and production-ready than they are in reality. You get nowhere with telling the exact truth. And you can say a lot without lying.

      Every entrepreneur in startup mode will say “we” when really he is on his own. He will talk about his large and experienced team when two friends have joined to help out. This is just how it works. I did the same myself.

      I think at one point in the past he really was to a certain extent thinking about, and working with others on, the very first outlines of a design for a robotised production line for domestic e-cats, and he told us this in this same entrepreneurial lingo. It is up to us as the receivers of this message to take these words at their right value. Nowhere did he say (AFAIK) he had really started, or the designs were complete.

      And I really believe the quick succession of technical successes made by him on the e-Cat at that time warranted such an initial brainstorm. But quite soon after that, Rossi learned that certification of domestic cold fusion product was no real option.

      Another good quality of an entrepreneur is then to quickly switch to another track that is more viable, in this case: industrial use, and a lot of work needed to be done in other areas than automation of production.

      • LCD

        I think your spot on. Have said it myself several times. Now add to this the idea that he must somehow follow academic level disclosure and you get a real soap opera.

    • Obvious

      Perhaps it will be announced one day after the US Patent Office grants a patent to IH that their robot factory they commissioned in China two years ago has been steadily producing hundreds of thousands of generic E-cat reactor cores for months…

    • Freethinker

      Maybe Thomas Francis Darden knocked on the door ….

    • Andreas Moraitis

      According to Rossi, up to now they did not have the opportunity to test a plant under full load in continuous operation. That sounds logical. What should they have done with 24 MWh heat per day in their workshop? Starting mass production without a prior long-term test under realistic conditions would be suicidal. Even after one year there will remain a considerable risk, so that I expect to see small series production first.

  • Sylvie Cemoi

    If it works, why don’t they begin mass production?
    Andrea Rossi said a long time ago (2 years ago?) that he has an automized (or robotized?) mass production line ready. So what happened?

    • GreenWin

      Sylvie, we here are well aware of the rote ad hominem complaints about production lines and robots. Please understand robotic complaints do not constitute worthy critique. You might want to join more adroit skeptics at EC-W.

      Oh, and I shall add that many supporters of Dr. Rossi and LENR do so because we have been waiting 60 years for “clean, unlimited fusion energy” which has cost taxpayers globally $250B and produced not one single Watt of useful energy. What happened?

    • Andre Blum

      Sylvie,
      Rossi was and is a serial entrepreneur in startup mode. He did and does what everyone does in that situation: make things look much more professional, advanced and production-ready than they are in reality. You get nowhere with telling the exact truth. And you can say a lot without lying.

      Every entrepreneur in startup mode will say “we” when really he is on his own. He will talk about his large and experienced team when two friends have joined to help out. This is just how it works. I did the same myself.

      I think at one point in the past he really was to a certain extent thinking about, and working with others on, the very first outlines of a design for a robotised production line for domestic e-cats, and he told us this in this same entrepreneurial lingo. It is up to us as the receivers of this message to take these words at their right value. Nowhere did he say (AFAIK) he had really started, or the designs were complete.

      And I really believe the quick succession of technical successes made by him on the e-Cat at that time warranted such an initial brainstorm. But quite soon after that, Rossi learned that certification of domestic cold fusion product was no real option.

      Another good quality of an entrepreneur is then to quickly switch to another track that is more viable, in this case: industrial use, and a lot of work needed to be done in other areas than automation of production.

      • LCD

        I think your spot on. Have said it myself several times. Now add to this the idea that he must somehow follow academic level disclosure and you get a real soap opera.

    • Obvious

      Perhaps it will be announced one day after the US Patent Office grants a patent to IH that their robot factory they commissioned in China two years ago has been steadily producing hundreds of thousands of generic E-cat reactor cores for months…

    • Freethinker

      Maybe Thomas Francis Darden knocked on the door ….

    • Andreas Moraitis

      According to Rossi, up to now they did not have the opportunity to test a plant under full load in continuous operation. That sounds logical. What should they have done with 24 MWh heat per day in their workshop? Starting mass production without a prior long-term test under realistic conditions would be suicidal. Even after one year there will remain a considerable risk, so that I expect to see small series production first.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Andrea Rossi

    October 21st, 2014 at 6:34 AM

    Andre Blum:

    The 1MW plant is similar to the one tested in October 2012.

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

    Very probably he means October 2011.

    • Andre Blum

      We did see pictures in a later year than 2011 where the contents of the container had significantly changed compared to the october 2011 photos and videos. (significant in the sense that much engineering effort and clearly a lot of money were put into — among other things — redesigning plumbings, pumps, etc.). Maybe Rossi refers to that model.

      It doesn’t matter, really, as probably the October 2011, October 2012 and October 2014 container are still one and the same. The exact same blue container he sold to IH is now probably moved to a customer site, (with an option for the mystery customer to buy when proven to work?) This is not bad, actually makes a lot of sense.

  • Pekka Janhunen

    Andrea Rossi

    October 21st, 2014 at 6:34 AM

    Andre Blum:

    The 1MW plant is similar to the one tested in October 2012.

    Warm Regards,

    A.R.

    Very probably he means October 2011.

    • Andre Blum

      We did see pictures in a later year than 2011 where the contents of the container had significantly changed compared to the october 2011 photos and videos. (significant in the sense that much engineering effort and clearly a lot of money were put into — among other things — redesigning plumbings, pumps, etc.). Maybe Rossi refers to that model.

      It doesn’t matter, really, as probably the October 2011, October 2012 and October 2014 container are still one and the same. The exact same blue container he sold to IH is now probably moved to a customer site, (with an option for the mystery customer to buy when proven to work?) This is not bad, actually makes a lot of sense.

    • kasom
  • bitplayer

    Analysis of skeptopathology – skeptopathic allegations and how they might work

    Fraud
    – Singular fraud
      – Tricky singular fraud
        – Rossi enjoying a crafty smile as a thin transparent tube with the doctored powder extends from his sleeve into the reactor
      – Dumb singular fraud
        – Rossi shouting “Hey, look a submarine!” causing the investigators to look the other way while he switches the power samples.
    – Complicit fraud
      – The investigators hunched over a candlelit table, faces hidden in cowls, agreeing on the common story line. Darden appears via a crystal ball on the table and nods his assent.

    > Incompetence
    – Gross incompetence
      – One of the investigators, distracted by thoughts of the fame to come, trips over the wiring, and cursing under his breath, reconnects them incorrectly
    – Subtle incompetence
      – All of the investigators and their reviewers overlook one of the obvious possible engineering errors that are generously pointed out by the skeptopaths and for which no one in the community has a valid refutation
    – Scientific incompetence
      – The investigators fail to consult with the exist paradigm experts on what is considered theoretically possible and conduct the experiment in the delusion that something real might turn up

    • Ophelia Rump

      Darden is cast in the role of the benevolent and gullible businessman, deceived by everyone around him. If you make everyone a villain you can’t play off anyone to demonstrate your impartiality.

      • deleo77

        Yes, a gullible businessman who was a Morehouse Scholar, went to Yale Law School, manages a multi-billion dollar investment fund, is on the board of multiple non-profits, and started his career consulting a Bain and Co. I imagine that Darden understands the concept of due diligence better than most.

        • Daniel Maris

          Oh well, you have to ignore that because he’s delegated it all to Mr Vaughn who is a complete religious maniac (say the skeps).

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            Can anyone tell me what’s so great about a low-temp mouse-cat e-cat driven 1MW plant? Is the cat-mouse config simply much more efficient (COP) or is there another reason to use the cat-mouse reactor in a low temp configuration. I mean; why not a high temperature 1MW plant? Wouldn’t such a plant be much more interesting due to the fact that it could be used in a much broader field of energy generation? In theory I’d say that such a plant could possibly be much smaller due to the higher temperature output, although cooling requirements could eat up that advantage. Still: why all the emphasis on the low temp plant?

          • Freethinker

            Good question.

            Perhaps the HOT CAT is not yet adopted to a WET solution – the engineering challenge is more difficult, and not enough R&D time has gone into it yet – and in this industrial application, it is heated water/fluid of a temperature that the normal ECAT can handle well. It could be as simple as that.

          • Daniel Maris

            The earlier E Cat would seem to be its own coolant system (i.e. it is clearly designed to produce hot water as an end product) . Remember, the job here is to produce a CHEAPER form of energy compared with conventional systems.

          • Omega Z

            ZZZ

            The answer is quite simple. You must learn to crawl before you walk.

            Everyone would like to see Rossi/IH working towards High Temp Electrical production Hot-Cats. This has a long learning curve with very high R&D costs. It is not nearly as easy as many may think.

            Even if one were to use 1 or a couple Hot cats to build an Electrical production system, it would be of low efficiency of little use & in no way cost beneficial. Nothing more then a proof of concept. It would still be many years of R&D to produce anything practical.

            Low temp E-cat’s will provide much information towards the path of Electrical production. Chaining a 100 of these reactors will be much safer should things go haywire. It will be much easier to recover from any problems that arise while learning to control multiple reactors.
            It also provides a quick path to profits to pay for all this basic research. There is a huge ready market for low temperature heat/steam & it is a much simpler technology to master.

            Where many may think the Rossi/IH path is a delay to generating electricity, It will ultimately speed the way to doing so.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            And even if the technology were ready for the market, we would be at best at the foot of the mountain. A 1MW high-temp LENR plant could possibly produce 300 kW of electric power. Provided that it operates 350 days or 8400 hours per year, it would generate 2.52 GWh of electric energy in this time. According to WolframAlpha, the worldwide amount of electric energy from nuclear power plants comes to 2344 TWh per year. That is, one would need 930000 HT Rossi plants to replace all currently existing fission plants. Large parts of the remaining thermal energy could be utilized for production processes and domestic heating. Provided that each plant needs 200g fuel per year, the total fuel consumption would sum up to not more than 186 metric tons. The last number looks undoubtedly impressive, but how long would it take to produce and install a million plants, or 100 million home units?

          • Ophelia Rump

            If you use a small heater on a small reactor core, you make a bigger heat, you can use that bigger heat as the heater to a great big reactor which outputs great big heat all from the little heat of the initial small reactor’s small heater. In theory you could keep chaining up as long as you maintained control and the reactors did not become so hot they melt.

          • Fortyniner

            I very much doubt that there is now any distinction. The current composite e-cat seems to be a convergence of the two branches. It’s even possible that the ‘cat’ was the ‘charge’ in the version tested at Lugarno, and that the ‘mouse’ was the rest of the assembly, equating directly to a ‘hot cat’, and now well beyond the reported – and nonsensical – COP of 1.1 originally reported for the mouse.

            I think that in due course we will learn that the same composite core is the type being tried out in the pilot plant, in some configuration that limits heat loss from the cores – in other words, there is now only one type of reactor.

          • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

            @all: thanks for your answers. Makes a little more sense now. My guess is also that this 1MW plant is upgraded to the latest version of the e-cat continuously: otherwise the customer would already have more than enough information on the efficiency of the plant. That’s probably an arrangement benefitting IH and the customer both.

          • bitplayer

            Darden to Vaughn: “I don’t know, I’m just not sure…”
            Vaughn to Darden: “Rossi says…”
            Darden to Vaughn: “Well, in that case, here’s the eleven million”.

        • Ophelia Rump

          Details, minor details for a skeptopath. Not relevant to the narrative.

          • Omega Z

            Actually, the Physicists have their own toys & see LENR as a threat to their long term funding health. If LENR breaks out, their research Wont End, But it will be seriously degraded. Mush less funding & far fewer Physicists employed in that field of research. This in a field that they believe is under funded to begin with. Like everyone else, they need employment to earn a living, to pay student loans & provide for their families.

            There is little doubt that should LENR come to market, ITER will quickly be defunded as will any other such projects. Billion$ will become Million$ only in support of basic research. Construction of or planning of new Nuclear power plants will come to a stand still. This has got to be very concerning for many Physicists. Especially in a field that has more trained people then jobs available to them.

            The smart money would be aimed at diverting the youngest of theses people towards LENR research. Preparing to fill the void in LENR research while reducing the employee pool for conventional physics research of which there is a surplus of people.

  • Ophelia Rump

    They are working on trying to reproduce the sun in a lab.
    If I understand correctly it is not enough to just mix the chemicals, you need to make it hot enough to start and then keep it bottled up without touching the walls of the device, It gets very hot and burns through anything.

    It is your idea they are describing, plus what they discovered that they have to do to make it work. It is not enough to make the sun in a bottle, you have to keep it in there.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    Thanks kasom. That means the 1MW plant has been updated with low-temp mouse-cat e-cat reactors. I did not even know low temp mouse-cat reactors did exist. I can only assume that the mouse-cat combination does wonders for the COP, otherwise I don’t really understand why you would need these type op reactors for the low temp 1MW plant.

  • Frechette

    Check out the following link:

    http://matslew.wordpress.com/2014/10/09/interview-on-radio-show-free-energy-quest-tonight/#comment-3604

    and scroll down to maryyugo’s second post.

  • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

    Can anyone tell me what’s so great about a low-temp mouse-cat e-cat driven 1MW plant? Is the cat-mouse config simply much more efficient (COP) or is there another reason to use the cat-mouse reactor in a low temp configuration. I mean; why not a high temperature 1MW plant? Wouldn’t such a plant be much more interesting due to the fact that it could be used in a much broader field of energy generation? In theory I’d say that such a plant could possibly be much smaller due to the higher temperature output, although cooling requirements could eat up that advantage. Still: why all the emphasis on the low temp plant?

    • Freethinker

      Good question.

      Perhaps the HOT CAT is not yet adopted to a WET solution – the engineering challenge is more difficult, and not enough R&D time has gone into it yet – and in this industrial application, it is heated water/fluid of a temperature that the normal ECAT can handle well. It could be as simple as that.

    • TomR

      There is a possibility that Rossi has not forgotten about the domestic low temperature E-Cat. He might need thousands of hours of safe operation to get the safety certification. I know I have my order in for a few.

    • Omega Z

      ZZZ

      The answer is quite simple. You must learn to crawl before you walk.

      Everyone would like to see Rossi/IH working towards High Temp Electrical production Hot-Cats. This has a long learning curve with very high R&D costs. It is not nearly as easy as many may think.

      Even if one were to use 1 or a couple Hot cats to build an Electrical production system, it would be of low efficiency of little use & in no way cost beneficial. Nothing more then a proof of concept. It would still be many years of R&D to produce anything practical.

      Low temp E-cat’s will provide much information towards the path of Electrical production. Chaining a 100 of these reactors will be much safer should things go haywire. It will be much easier to recover from any problems that arise while learning to control multiple reactors.
      It also provides a quick path to profits to pay for all this basic research. There is a huge ready market for low temperature heat/steam & it is a much simpler technology to master.

      Where many may think the Rossi/IH path is a delay to generating electricity, It will ultimately speed the way to doing so.

      • Andreas Moraitis

        And even if the technology were ready for the market, we would be at best at the foot of the mountain. A 1MW high-temp LENR plant could possibly produce 300 kW of electric power. Provided that it operates 350 days or 8400 hours per year, it would generate 2.52 GWh of electric energy in this time. According to WolframAlpha, the worldwide amount of electric energy from nuclear power plants comes to 2344 TWh per year. That is, one would need 930000 HT Rossi plants to replace all currently existing fission plants. Large parts of the remaining thermal energy could be utilized for production processes and domestic heating. Provided that each plant needs 200g fuel per year, the total fuel consumption would sum up to not more than 186 metric tons. The last number looks undoubtedly impressive, but how long would it take to produce and install a million plants, or 100 million home units?

        • Mark Szl

          A million is actually not many at all. These things will probably follow Moore’s law once the physics is understood. They are like a gift from the gods.

    • Ophelia Rump

      If you use a small heater on a small reactor core, you make a bigger heat, you can use that bigger heat as the heater to a great big reactor which outputs great big heat. In theory you could keep chaining up as long as you maintained control and the reactors did not become so hot they melt.

      • colodude

        Melt control is THE must; it was singularly responsible for the decision by the Swedes to run measurable current for 32 days rather than risk a loss of control of the input current. Ganging the cats and mice Gang-nem Style (couldn’t resist) requires millisecond control that only the computers can manage. Very interesting problem to have.

        • LilyLover

          You know, after the 1. Sabrina-boys, boys, boys 2. Sabrina- Rewind- all -off you wants all of me and 3. I’m Barbie girl, for a long time I thought that fun-songs are on the verge of extinction… hen come along the ‘what does the fox say’ and ‘gang-nem style’ – love it. Although, one would never guess, the songs like these bring me joy and keep me hopeful about the future of humanity. Love it! May be we should have an ‘Off-topic’ thread about great music the E-Catters love – will help us enrich our collection and allow us to get closer. Zero intentions of cult-following – but would be nice to have – E-Catters-approved-great-music-across-he-globe. Would help the posterity to weed out fluff from substance.

    • I doubt that there is now any distinction between e-cat types, as the current composite e-cat seems to represent a convergence of the two branches. It seems entirely possible that the ‘cat’ was the ‘charge’ in the version tested at Lugarno (equating to the original powder-filled LT e-cat type), and that the ‘mouse’ was the rest of the assembly, equating directly to the tubular ‘hot cat’, but now operating well beyond the COP of 1.1 originally reported for the mouse. Perhaps the ‘cat’ just acts as some kind of stabiliser or enhancer for what is now the main part of the reactor – the hot cat ‘mouse’. Rossi would enjoy the humorous irony of that.

      I think that in due course we will learn that the same composite core is the type being tried out in the pilot plant, in some configuration that limits rate of heat loss from the cores (possibly a simple air gap). In other words, there is probably now only one type of e-cat reactor under development, and it is considerably more complex both physically and functionally, than either of its ancestors.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      @all: thanks for your answers. Makes a little more sense now. My guess is also that this 1MW plant is upgraded to the latest version of the e-cat continuously: otherwise the customer would already have more than enough information on the efficiency of the plant. That’s probably an arrangement benefitting IH and the customer both.

  • US_Citizen71

    The key is ‘current theory of nuclear physics’, that is theory not law(s) of nuclear physics. The problem is not that his device challenges a theory or three, the problem is Rossi isn’t a tenured professor at big named science university or working at something like CERN. Theories were meant to be challenged. That is their whole point in science. When nothing is able to prove them wrong foe long enough we consider them laws. But until then they are fair game.

  • Gerrit

    JoNP Rossi: “As Prof. Focardi teached to me, to understand LENR we have not to invent new Physics, we have just to study better the Standard Model…. I am deeply convinced that it is in the Standard model that we have to find a reconciliation. Obviously, as you know, I am perfectly aware of the fact that a theory is made to be overcome, but I do not think this is the case.”

    I think the nuclear physicists are so convinced of their understanding of the theory that they only look for interesting things in places where they expect such interesting things can be found. They have build huge and expensive tools that let them look at two body systems. I am not aware of a comparable effort with multi body systems.

    Imagine a forester (=physicist) who is convinced he knows his forest (=theory) inside out. He will frequently go to certain places in his forest to see if anything interesting is happening. He will not visit other parts of his forest, because he is convinced there is nothing of interest there and he doesn’t get paid (=funding) to just wander about in his forest.

    You can complete the story of what happens when somebody, who is not a forester, claims there is something interesting happening after all.

  • Gerrit

    I am very happy that since the report has been published Rossi is much more talkative. I feel Rossi himself is also happy about it.

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Yes, and the “positive or negative” mantra has completely disappeared.

  • georgehants

    Pray that there’s intelligent life somewhere out in space,
    ‘Cause there’s bugger all down here on Earth!
    Monty Python, “The Galaxy Song”

    • Obvious

      Hi, George. I was wondering where you went. I hope all is as well with you as can be.

      • georgehants

        Thank you Obvious, all very well thank you.

    • Frank Acland

      Hi George, nice to hear from you!

      • georgehants

        Thank you Frank.

    • GreenWin

      Nice to see you around and about George! How are you liking Cornwall?

      • georgehants

        GreenWin, Cornwall Wonderful and I am being very careful to watch out for those Pirates of Penzance, ha.

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      Good to see this old warrior back 🙂

      • georgehants

        Thanks Z, still crazy but holding in there.

  • ivanc

    Dear all, Time has pass and the discussion still not settled, the Patho-belivers and the patho_skeptics arguments.
    After all this years we still do not have a bullet prove experiment that will settle the issue, some say that the measurements were wrong, that the light passing through the semi transparent alumina is cause for errors, other encounter problems with the data, some say you need a cop 6 to have seft running.
    a sterling engine is about 90+% efficient, and an electric generator is about 95% efficient. with a cop of 2.5 we should have a self sustaining electric generator using an sterling engine.
    Why something like this is not done. science is not about theory is about experiment, once a experiment is shown beyond doubt then theory follows.
    I am an electrical eng. and know measuring electric currents could be a bit tricky not imposible but definitely is a specialized field,
    I still waiting….. I hope one day soon we will know the truth.

    • LCD

      Yeah more places to hide wires and thermite, lol

      The real answer Ivan is that hooking this up becomes a load on the system and even Rossi has said that that is not an easy thing with these cats quite yet.

      • piosk

        c’mon two years ago he insisted that 1MW ecat plant is workin even few was sold to unknown customers and now what?
        he has to build it from scratch?
        I see only two possibilities: charlatan or dreamer

        • LCD

          Lol, I know you are upset but things just don’t move that fast. For instance if you are improving the reactor efficiency every three months, when do you ship, when do you change or file the final killer patent? And don’t forget once you sell the first mass produced product you will have a billion eyeballs looking at it and they will all try to figure out how it works and how to do it better.

    • multipower

      “a sterling engine is about 90+% efficient” where did you get that?

    • Frechette

      The Sterling engine has an efficiency which comes closest to the theoretical Carnot cycle which used as the touchstone to compare thermodynamic based heat engines.

  • Gerrit

    shortly back to Lockheed Martin. Part of the company must be aware of the status of cold fusion. According to the June 1998 EPRI final report (TR-107843). SRI international is/was a Lockheed Martin Company (see page iii of the document). And we know that Lockheed Martin would have funded a cold fusion research program at MIT, but was blocked by higher ups on both MIT and Lockheed Martin’s side.

    It looks like there is a similar situation going on within the company as we see in the physics science world. The “real” fusion gets the funding, but the cold fusion gets put on ice.

  • Gerrit

    moved comment to new thread

  • Daniel Maris

    Quite, it seems pretty obvious. However it would not satisfy the skeps who would still claim fraud at the input end.

  • LCD

    Yeah more places to hide wires and thermite, lol

    The real answer Ivan is that hooking this up becomes a load on the system and even Rossi has said that that is not an easy thing with these cats quite yet.

  • LilyLover

    You know, after the 1. Sabrina-boys, boys, boys 2. Sabrina- Rewind- all -off you wants all of me and 3. I’m Barbie girl, for a long time I thought that fun-songs are on the verge of extinction… hen come along the ‘what does the fox say’ and ‘gang-nem style’ – love it. Although, one would never guess, the songs like these bring me joy and keep me hopeful about the future of humanity. Love it! May be we should have an ‘Off-topic’ thread about great music the E-Catters love – will help us enrich our collection and allow us to get closer. Zero intentions of cult-following – but would be nice to have – E-Catters-approved-great-music-across-he-globe. Would help the posterity to weed out fluff from substance.

  • Frechette

    The Sterling engine has an efficiency which comes closest to the theoretical Carnot cycle which used as the touchstone to compare thermodynamic based heat engines.

  • LCD

    Lol, I know you are upset but things just don’t move that fast. For instance if you are improving the reactor efficiency every three months, when do you ship, when do you change or file the final killer patent? And don’t forget once you sell the first mass produced product you will have a billion eyeballs looking at it and they will all try to figure out how it works and how to do it better.

  • Bo

    To compare LENR with early aviation, a reminder that new techology is not easy. it does not start perfect.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sp7MHZY2ADI

    Early Flying Failures Stock Footage – The Film Gate

    🙂