Fusion Discussed on BBC Radio — Cold Fusion Mentioned (Fortyniner)

Thanks to Fortyniner for this report:

Fusion power was discussed on the BBC’s ‘In Our Time’ morning chat show today. Much predictable talking up of hot fusion by three ‘experts’, then (to his credit) host Melvyn Bragg asked “But what about cold fusion?”.

Momentary silence, then some tentative comments about how it had looked hopeful at one time, and a brief mention of how muon catalysed fusion might work, but the tone shifted rapidly downward as the consensus was established, until one ‘expert’ came up with “more like a Fleischmann and Ponzi scheme” – at which point I turned the radio off.

Below is a summary from the BBC, and link to the podcast.

Nuclear Fusion 30 Oct 14

Duration:47 mins

Nuclear fusion is the process that powers stars. In the 1920s physicists predicted that it might be possible to generate huge amounts of energy by fusing atomic nuclei together, a reaction requiring enormous temperatures and pressures. Scientists have achieved fusion in the laboratory and today it is seen as a possible future source of limitless and clean energy. Melvyn Bragg is joined by Philippa Browning, Professor of Astrophysics at the University of Manchester; Steve Cowley, Chief Executive of the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority and Justin Wark, Professor of Physics and fellow of Trinity College at the University of Oxford.


http://www.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/series/iot

  • Daniel Maris

    Well done Melvyn – always had him down as a good guy! 🙂

  • GordonDocherty

    Just goes to highlight the old adage “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.” – Upton Sinclair, US novelist & socialist politician (1878 – 1968)

  • GordonDocherty

    Just goes to highlight the old adage “It is difficult to get a man to understand something when his job depends on not understanding it.” – Upton Sinclair, US novelist & socialist politician (1878 – 1968)

  • pelgrim108

    The fragment begins at 34:30

  • pelgrim108

    (edited to avoid confusion) thanks bachcole

    The fragment begins at 34:30 of this interview: (mp3) http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/iot/iot_20141030-1145a.mp3

    • bachcole

      How can it begin at 34:30 when the video is only about 11 minutes long. And I thought that it was an interview, not a TED talk.

      • Frank Acland

        Check out the link in the original post, Roger — it goes to the podcast of the radio show.

  • Not the first time Steve Cowley mentions CF
    All though still negative he is slightly less careful with his words in this new program

    I think Steve`s involvement in large billion dollar deal contracts for competitive technologies should be taken in account when assessing the information.

    Just as probable as people make up free energy scams to make money its likely that people will play skeptical if they have money to gain from billion dollar contracts pending in their own industry.

    Not saying Steve is lying, just saying he is bias due to economical interests.
    Steve is most probably a good scientist and honest person – but it we wanted an objective opinion he would not be the first person to ask.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6BLFdBfgfU

    • Omega Z

      This says it all.
      Steven Cowley says he’s probably the only person who really enjoys it when Mr. Putin turns off the gas tap, because my budget goes up. More money for hot fusion.

      Hot Fusionists are the major Opponents to LENR. These people also have the ear of the political powers. Even if a politician shows interest, they will ultimately ask these people.
      Is there anything to this LENR stuff? Not just no, But Hail No!
      This is why you sending them E-mails & such will go nowhere. Only when working systems put it beyond question will they pay attention.

      Note on Lithium: There is about 15 million tons of reserves in different countries & more being discovered all the time.

      In the link you [email protected] 7:10 Cowley says 30 million years supply of Lithium in sea water. Or more precisely, about 230 billion ton in seawater.

    • pelgrim108

      How can someone with his physics knowledge bring up perpetual motion machines in relation to cold fusion on live BBC radio and being sincere at te same time? Its impossible I think.

  • A nervous laughter does not substitute for a compelling argument, a careful measurement or a public demonstration.

    • Omega Z

      This says it all.
      Steven Cowley says he’s probably the only person who really enjoys it when Mr. Putin turns off the gas tap, because my budget goes up. More money for hot fusion.

      Hot Fusionists are the major Opponents to LENR. These people also have the ear of the political powers. Even if a politician shows interest, they will ultimately ask these people.
      Is there anything to this LENR stuff? Not just no, But Hail No!
      This is why you sending them E-mails & such will go nowhere. Only when working systems put it beyond question will they pay attention.

      Note on Lithium: There is about 15 million tons of reserves in different countries & more being discovered all the time.

      In the link you [email protected] 7:10 Cowley says 30 million years supply of Lithium in sea water. Or more precisely, about 230 billion ton in seawater.

    • pelgrim108

      How can someone with his physics knowledge bring up perpetual motion machines in relation to cold fusion on live BBC radio and being sincere at te same time? Its impossible I think.
      Also: Do I understand him correctly when he says
      (Parafrased) I did a cold fusion experiment that day and the neutron counter went off scale. When I put shielding between the counter and the experiment the neutron count went down.
      Did he meant to say something else or did he confess on radio that he did a succesfull CF experiment in the course of 1 day?

      Here is what he said:
      ” I mean, In 1989, I remember the anouncement myself. I mean the very next day a college across the corridor from me, I asked if he knew about it, he said: “Well no, but I do have some deuterated paladium”. And I took it and went down to the Rutherford Laboratory and I thought to myself I don’t know what’s going on but if I can squash this stuff, wich I knew how to do with a laser, maybe the fusion reaction would, if there is one, would ehm increase a bit in rate. So I put it into the beam. I fired a laser at it. I had a neutron counter. The neutron counter went off scale. I was very exited eh but I didn’t call the press straight away. I went and had a cup of tea and I put more shielding between the eh experiment and the neutron counter and the signal went away.”

  • ecatworld

    Check out the link in the original post, Roger — it goes to the podcast of the radio show.

  • pelgrim108

    MB = Melvyn Bragg
    SC = Steve Cowley, Chief Executive of the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority
    PB = Philippa Browning, Professor of Astrophysics at the University of Manchester.

    Fragment starts at 34:30

    MB:
    Ehm, can we talk about cold fusion? Wich came in as an idea in 1989 from the University of Utah. And eh, why was it so striking? Why dit it seem such a very aplausible idea? Steve you are first.

    SC:
    Uh, (laughter) did it seem a plausible idea? Ehm there was a fenomenon before that, that had been discovered. One of the difficulties of making fusion happen is this repulsion that happens between possitive charches. If you could get a negative charge that could cancel out that repulsion, so that you could stick a negative charche between the two positive charches and cancel it out, then you can get them much closer. But you cant get an electron in there because its rushing around to much; it never stays in one place long enough. But you can get a heavier particle in there. And there was a phenomena noticed, in 1946 actually, whereby fusion took place because a heavy negatively charched particle, called a muon, got bound to deuterium, heavy hydrogen, and that allowed the deuterium to get close to another deuterium. Close enough that this strong force actually caused them to fuse. So here was another way of making fusion happen. By having a heavy negatively charged particle. Fusion could then happen without having these immense energies and speeds of the particles. And so in 1989 there was this anouncement of University of Utah that you can actually do this in a electrochemical cell. You know by passing electricity through a liquid and it wasn’t really plausible because they didnt have any muons in there, no heavy negatively charged particles, but they were claiming that there was a lot of energy coming out of their cell.

    MB:
    Philip ehm. What would have been the exitement of cold fusion?

    PB:
    Well, I mean, had it worked, I suppose, wich I think we probably all agree it effectively didn’t, obviously it would have saved all the difficulty of having to, you know having these plasmas at very high temperatures and so on. Ehm but I think it was you know experiments where done you know very soon after really wich show that this process wasn’t really a way of generating energy.

    MB:
    Is there now thought to be…

    PB:
    So it would have been atractive but…

    MB:
    Sorry. Is there now thought to be any possibility that cold fusion could sometimes be proved to work?

    PB:
    Ehm, I mean, I dont think there is much ehm… no haha

    MB:
    A shaking of heads is going on aurond the table.

    PB:
    Yes haha.

    SC:
    Right I could say the short answer is no and the alliance ( Philip:Yes haha) is a no as well. It generates a lot of exitement ( Philip: Yeah ). I mean nobody knew what this anouncement ment. All we knew is that there was hydrogen and heavy hydrogen in somehow pumped in this metal. I mean, In 1989, I remember the anouncement myself. I mean the very next day a college across the corridor from me, I asked if he knew about it, he said: “Well no, but I do have some deuterated paladium”. And I took it and went down to the Rutherford Laboratery and I thought to myself I don’t know what’s going on but if I can squash this stuff, wich I knew how to do with a laser, maybe the fusion reaction would, if there is one, would ehm increase a bit in rate. So I put it into the beam. I fired a laser at it. I had a neutron counter. The neutron counter went off scale. I was very exited eh but I didn’t call the press straight away. I went and had a cup of tea and I put more shielding between the eh experiment and the neutron counter and the signal went away. So I think the problem with the Fleischman and Pons sceme is eh, well perhaps its the Fleischman Ponsi sceme. It, really I don’t think anybody now looks upon it seriously. Eh people keep talking about it in the same way as they keep talking about perpetual motion machines.

  • pelgrim108

    MB = Melvyn Bragg
    SC = Steve Cowley, Chief Executive of the United Kingdom Atomic Energy Authority
    PB = Philippa Browning, Professor of Astrophysics at the University of Manchester.

    Fragment starts at 34:30 (.mp3) http://downloads.bbc.co.uk/podcasts/radio4/iot/iot_20141030-1145a.mp3

    MB:
    Ehm, can we talk about cold fusion? Wich came in as an idea in 1989 from the University of Utah. And eh, why was it so striking? Why dit it seem such a very aplausible idea? Steve you are first.

    SC:
    Uh, (laughter) did it seem a plausible idea? Ehm there was a fenomenon before that, that had been discovered. One of the difficulties of making fusion happen is this repulsion that happens between possitive charges. If you could get a negative charge that could cancel out that repulsion, so that you could stick a negative charge between the two positive charges and cancel it out, then you can get them much closer. But you cant get an electron in there because its rushing around to much; it never stays in one place long enough. But you can get a heavier particle in there. And there was a phenomena noticed, in 1946 actually, whereby fusion took place because a heavy negatively charged particle, called a muon, got bound to deuterium, heavy hydrogen, and that allowed the deuterium to get close to another deuterium. Close enough that this strong force actually caused them to fuse. So here was another way of making fusion happen. By having a heavy negatively charged particle. Fusion could then happen without having these immense energies and speeds of the particles. And so in 1989 there was this anouncement of University of Utah that you can actually do this in a electrochemical cell. You know by passing electricity through a liquid and it wasn’t really plausible because they didnt have any muons in there, no heavy negatively charged particles, but they were claiming that there was a lot of energy coming out of their cell.

    MB:
    Philippa ehm. What would have been the exitement of cold fusion?

    PB:
    Well, I mean, had it worked, I suppose, wich I think we probably all agree it effectively didn’t, obviously it would have saved all the difficulty of having to, you know having these plasmas at very high temperatures and so on. Ehm but I think it was you know experiments where done you know very soon after really wich show that this process wasn’t really a way of generating energy.

    MB:
    Is there now thought to be…

    PB:
    So it would have been atractive but…

    MB:
    Sorry. Is there now thought to be any possibility that cold fusion could sometimes be proved to work?

    PB:
    Ehm, I mean, I dont think there is much ehm… no haha

    MB:
    A shaking of heads is going on aurond the table.

    PB:
    Yes haha.

    SC:
    Right I could say the short answer is no and the alliance (PB:Yes haha) is a no as well. It generates a lot of exitement ( PB: Yeah ). I mean nobody knew what this anouncement ment. All we knew is that there was hydrogen and heavy hydrogen in somehow pumped in this metal. I mean, In 1989, I remember the anouncement myself. I mean the very next day a college across the corridor from me, I asked if he knew about it, he said: “Well no, but I do have some deuterated paladium”. And I took it and went down to the Rutherford Laboratory and I thought to myself I don’t know what’s going on but if I can squash this stuff, wich I knew how to do with a laser, maybe the fusion reaction would, if there is one, would ehm increase a bit in rate. So I put it into the beam. I fired a laser at it. I had a neutron counter. The neutron counter went off scale. I was very exited eh but I didn’t call the press straight away. I went and had a cup of tea and I put more shielding between the eh experiment and the neutron counter and the signal went away. So I think the problem with the Fleischmann and Pons scheme is eh, well perhaps its the Fleischmann Ponzi scheme. It, really I don’t think anybody now looks upon it seriously. Eh people keep talking about it in the same way as they keep talking about perpetual motion machines.

  • Ophelia Rump

    This is why pilots fly below the radar.
    And still they shoot into the air.

  • Ophelia Rump

    This is why pilots fly below the radar.
    And still they shoot into the empty air.

  • Freethinker

    There is no end to the denial and stupidity. But I guess the nervous laughter is indicative to some understanding of the fact that the proverbial sh*t is about to hit the fan, but they cannot break away from the official narrative, afraid of being caught with their pants down, being ridiculed by their group thinking and locked in peers.

    They day it will all crumble I shall sit back with a silly smile on my lips, watching it all.

  • Freethinker

    There is no end to the denial and stupidity. But I guess the nervous laughter is indicative to some understanding of the fact that the proverbial sh*t is about to hit the fan, but they cannot break away from the official narrative, afraid of being caught with their pants down, being ridiculed by their group thinking and locked in peers.

    They day it will all crumble I shall sit back with a silly smile on my lips, watching it all.

  • GreenWin

    Cowley displays clarity on the order of the Orion nebula. Comments like these are further evidence of “Programmed Reality” – as described by Jim Elvidge, Cornell MSEE and author of “The Universe Solved.” No rational human being would continue with the pathetic scheme rubric. The discouraging part is having to witness the laughable, incompetent programming this “reality” represents. Listen to this interview on Red Ice for a reasoned explanation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7zBenPpZlA

    • GreenWin

      Note also at 25:55 Jim and Henrik discuss Cold Fusion and the role of intent or consciousness on experiments.

  • GreenWin

    Cowley displays clarity on the order of the Orion nebula. Comments like these are further evidence of “Programmed Reality” – as described by Jim Elvidge, Cornell MSEE and author of “The Universe Solved.” No rational human being would continue with the pathetic scheme rubric. The discouraging part is having to witness the laughable, incompetent programming this “reality” represents. Listen to this interview on Red Ice for a reasoned explanation. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z7zBenPpZlA

    • GreenWin

      Note also at 25:55 Jim and Henrik discuss Cold Fusion and the role of intent or consciousness on experiments.

  • Steve Cowley, Ted talk 2009. his comment on CF starts at the 8:40 mark. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S6BLFdBfgfU With many billon$ he is projecting Hot Fusion producing electricity some time in the 2030’s.
    Not to trash HF. George Miley did some very intelligent experiments applying CF discoveries to HF.

  • Alan DeAngelis
  • Alan DeAngelis
  • bitplayer
  • Alan DeAngelis

    Should I believe them or Mitsubishi Heavy Industries?
    http://www.google.com/patents/EP1202290B1?cl=en

  • Alan DeAngelis

    Should I believe them or Mitsubishi Heavy Industries?
    http://www.google.com/patents/EP1202290B1?cl=en

  • Alan DeAngelis
  • Alan DeAngelis
  • Alan DeAngelis

    Were the isotopic shifts of palladium that Tadahika Mizuno found in his cathodes real or were they part of this Ponzi scheme?

    Was the tritium that John O’Mara Bokris real or was this too part of this Ponzi scheme? Et cetera…
    What sort of scheme was Eugene Mallove talking about here?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6y98YwJ2GEE

  • Oystein Lande

    And here is a tribute to professor Martin Fleischmann and all the Cold Fusion heroes who knew, but left us too early. Truth will prevail.

    http://youtu.be/eIHXhFJ4FoM

    Part of Lyrics:

    “He had a thousand ideas, you might have heard his name
    ………..
    But he knew, he knew more than me or you
    No one could see his view, Oh where was he going to….

    He was in search of an answer
    The nature of what we are
    He was trying to do it a new way
    He was bright as a star
    But nobody understood him
    “His numbers are not the way”
    He’s lost in the deepest enigma
    Which no one’s unraveled today
    ….
    He had a different idea
    A glimpse of the master plan
    He could see into the future
    A true visionary man
    But there’s something he never told us
    It died when he went away
    If only he could have been with us
    No telling what he might say

    But he knew, he knew more than me or you
    No one could see his view
    Oh, where was he going to
    But he knew, you could tell by the picture he drew
    It was totally something new,
    Oh where was he going to?

    A lost opportunity in1989, but it was only a delay. The war is not over.

  • bkrharold

    I don’t like that phrase. These lesser lights infesting the air waves with their ignorance will never accomplish anything, and yet feel entitled to ridicule great men. They should be ashamed.

  • bkrharold

    I don’t like that phrase. These lesser lights infesting the air waves with their ignorance will never accomplish anything, and yet feel entitled to ridicule great men. They should be ashamed.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    So, they didn’t actually do what F&P did. But from what they did they came to the conclusion that F&P were wrong.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      PS
      We did exactly what the brain surgeon did but instead of using a scalpel we used an available meat cleaver. We weren’t able to reproduce what he did. He’s an incompetent boob.

  • Alan DeAngelis

    So, they didn’t actually do what F&P did. But from what they did they came to the conclusion that F&P were wrong.

    • Alan DeAngelis

      PS
      We did exactly what the brain surgeon did but instead of using a scalpel we used an available meat cleaver. We weren’t able to reproduce what he did. He’s an incompetent boob.