Is there a Case for Compulsory Licensing of the E-Cat? (Bob Greenyer)

This post by Bob Greenyer was written in response to a comment by Ophelia Rump who wrote, regarding the recently published patent application for the E-Cat: “If for any reason these devices remain the province of rich industrialists and do not make it into the hands of the common man at an affordable price, then we need to burn down what we mistakenly call civilization and start over.”

It will be a candidate for compulsory licence like many in the electronic, chemical and pharmaceutical industry.

Here is an example

http://baldwins.com/india-s-ip-appellate-board-endorses-compulsory-license-of-patented-cancer-drug-to-generic-manufacturer/

From the article

“Grant of compulsory license

Compulsory licensing occurs when a government authorises an organisation other than the patent owner to produce a patented product or process without the patent owner’s consent. The patent owner is remunerated for the license but does not have the option to refuse the license, select the licensee, or determine royalty rates. The Indian Patents Act (2005) provides for compulsory licenses three years following patent grant. Compulsory licenses can be granted on the grounds of the invention not being available at a reasonably affordable price, the reasonable requirements of the public with respect to the patented invention not being met, or the patent not being worked. This has recently been changed from ‘reasonably priced’ to ‘reasonably affordably priced’, which is seen to lower the threshold for compulsory licensing.”

And IH need to be aware of this. This makes it all the more important that they focus is LARGE niche – high expense markets where there is not the volume to attract the mass manufacturers of China and India. If IH does not blanket licence the tec h at an affordable rate and only markets the tech to high end industry, the first domestic LENR heaters/co-generators will likely come from India.

 

  • Anon2012_2014

    Patents only last 20 years. I think it is long, but in the world of our energy usage, including with Frack Natural Gas and Shale Oil, 20 years is short enough because we will know when the patents expire that we will have plenty of future energy. 99% of our energy usage is in the future, not now.

    What needs to happen is there to be competition at an affordable price after 20 years — not what the drug companies do where they keep slightly changing the formulation to keep Nexium off the market.

    Finally, the existing renewable technology cross substitution: PV Solar and Wind Turbines, will continue to cut the need for the future conventional electric generation for the next 20 years with or without ECAT.

    I’d like to see effective cost reduced competition in LENR home heating and utility scale power generation starting in 2015. But without patents, I don’t know if Rossi or IH would have invested at all. A 20 year monopoly for such a high cost and risk intensive business seems about right.

  • Ivy Matt

    The only country where Rossi has been granted an E-Cat patent so far is Italy. Italy has compulsory licensing for patents that are not reduced to practice after a certain length of time. (I forget how long, but it’s well past.) Yet no one (as far as I am aware) has bothered to compel Rossi to license the E-Cat.

    The reason for this is simple enough. Those who don’t believe Rossi’s claims are not going to pay him money to license an invention they don’t believe works. And those who do believe his claims must believe that he has already reduced his patent claims to practice.

    If all Rossi claims to be offering on the market is a 1MW device, I’m skeptical he would be forced to also sell 10kW devices. At most I think he would be required to reduce the price of the 1MW E-Cat.

  • mcloki

    Can’t LENR be considered a natural process. From the description of it i can see how this “Rossi Effect” would go unnoticed in nature. It only happens in microscopic areas, under very specific conditions and only produces heat. I’m sure that most people wouldn’t think twice that the rock they touched was hot because of LENR. There are a million other thing it could be. Why is the earth hotter as we did. Is is all molten core, and radioactive decay as they theorize? Could LENR account for some of that heat.

    • the patent protect the machine.
      a cylinder with heating coils and nickel with low pressure hydrogen inside…

      you can make a LENr device, provided it is not this kind of cylinder with Nickel powder inside…

      • mcloki

        That makes more sense.

  • mcloki

    Can’t LENR be considered a natural process. From the description of it i can see how this “Rossi Effect” would go unnoticed in nature. It only happens in microscopic areas, under very specific conditions and only produces heat. I’m sure that most people wouldn’t think twice that the rock they touched was hot because of LENR. There are a million other things it could be. Why is the earth hotter as we dig. Is is all molten core, and radioactive decay as they theorize? Could LENR account for some of that heat.

    • the patent protect the machine.
      a cylinder with heating coils and nickel with low pressure hydrogen inside…

      you can make a LENr device, provided it is not this kind of cylinder with Nickel powder inside…

      • mcloki

        That makes more sense.

  • Herb Gillis

    There are provisions in US patent law for mandatory licensing of patents to the government (or contractors thereof) in the event that the patent is deemed to be important for national security. This usually includes a substantial delay in publication.

    • georgehants

      In many cases, for “national security.” read, to protect the interests of the corrupt rich and powerful.
      How do the fracking people feel about Cold Fusion, perhaps they are going to donate some funds and manpower to it’s Research effort.

  • Paul Bennett

    Governments provide patent protection to encourage innovation and inventions. The granting of a patent is a distortion of the market deliberately introduced for this purpose. Since the government is implementing the distortion, it is clearly able to waive it, but every time it does so, it weakens the effect of the policy. If you are an inventor and investing many years of your life with no compensation, are you going to be so motivated if there is a real possibility that the government will renege on its implicit agreement to grant you monopoly on your invention.

    It is not entirely clear how effective the patent system is in encouraging inventions. The major inventions of the industrial revolution were not so protected and many of the inventors died in poverty. In some cases the government voted to give them substantial amounts of money to reward them for their contribution to society, but there were no guarantees before the fact. The main motivation seems to have been the existence of a problem and the desire to do things more efficiently.

    I do not have a firm opinion as to whether the government should or should not compel IH to allow licencing, but I hope these comments have informed the discussion.

  • georgehants

    In many cases, for “national security.” read, to protect the interests of the corrupt rich and powerful.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Bob, I would have to say no. Not now! Not yet!

    I sincerely believe in the right of a property owner to do the right thing on their own.
    I also sincerely the best thing Industrial Heat can do financially is to license the technology.

    I hope and pray the Industrial Heat will license their technology in a reasonable manner, before the myriad of copycats and freeware enthusiasts consume the majority portion of the market value.

    The technology is not even certified ready for home use at this time. I think the rights of humanity weighed against the rights of individuals and corporations it is a good subject to discuss anytime, I encourage this discussion; so long as it remains mindful of the rights of others. I can envision a time in the not to distant future where I might stand on the side of the greater good, but this is not the time. So I ask this question: what would be the proper time?

    What criteria would indicate that the rights of humanity have been subjugated to the rights of an anointed few and their corporations? At that time only would any infringement upon the property rights owners be just.

    • Fortyniner

      I believe that your final suggestion is not only possible but inevitable. As both (intertwined) groups wake up to the very real threat to their incomes and power bases that CF represents, it seems very likely that we will see pre-emptive moves in the direction of monopoly control of cold fusion direction, even if some ‘accident’ is required to allow appropriate legislation to be put in place.

      Probably the only reason that this has not occurred so far is that TPTB is to some extent ‘hoist on their own petard’ by their choice of meeting the challenge with denial and ridicule in the MSM. When this strategy turns instead to overt recognition and fake ‘concerns’ about safety, we’ll know that the game is afoot.

      • Ophelia Rump

        The greater good is not served by disposing of concepts like personal property and ownership for convenience or expedience. If you look carefully you will find that looters fight among themselves to preserve the concept, when it regards their new found property.

        I humbly submit that we will know when the rights of a few have been disproportionately favored over the rest of humanity when power from LENR is delivered through a meter, and there is no economically fair alternative to generate your own.

        • Omega Z

          Ophelia

          Existing safety regulations will limit temps to about 350’C for residential use.
          Other then that, I think the technology already has it’s own limits. There is little need for outside influence. It’s only economically viable home use at this time would be as base load heating paired with a conventional heating system for peek demand periods. Even for that it needs a COP>10.

          At residential scale, This technology doesn’t even produce cheap electricity once you include the hardware costs. In fact it is to the contrary. It will cost more then the present grid power. Which by the way will decline once the energy companies switch to LENR power generation. Aside from improvements in LENR technology, we need major improvements in many others to make this residential friendly.

  • Ophelia Rump

    Bob, I would have to say no. Not now! Not yet!

    I sincerely believe in the right of a property owner to do the right thing on their own.
    I also sincerely feel the best thing Industrial Heat can do financially is to license the technology.

    I hope and pray that Industrial Heat will license their technology in a reasonable manner, before the myriad of copycats and freeware enthusiasts consume the majority portion of the market value.

    The technology is not even certified ready for home use at this time. I think the rights of humanity weighed against the rights of individuals and corporations it is a good subject to discuss anytime, I encourage this discussion; so long as it remains mindful of the rights of others. I can envision a time in the not to distant future where I might stand on the side of the greater good, but this is not the time. So I ask this question: what would be the proper time?

    What criteria would indicate that the rights of humanity have been subjugated to the rights of an anointed few and their corporations? At that time only would any infringement upon the property rights of the owners be just.

    I must add also this warning, if the technology is never certified for home use, then you should reasonably expect that there would also be no government intervention to see to it’s public distribution. Therein lies the rub. This government intervention is a fiction which would not likely occur in the wild. Either the technology will directly reach the hands of the public, or industry and government will have conspired to suppress that eventuality.

    • I have no problem with favouring the greater good, especially if no public disclosure is made by IH and partners within a few months. The needs of people, the removal of a principal cause of war, and the protection of the environment from further radioactive contamination, seem to considerably outweigh the financial interests of the corporate grouping which now appears to have control of Rossi’s technology. I hope this dissemination of knowledge comes about through fair competition, or perhaps through the efforts of MFMP, but in the end I care much less about ‘how’ than about ‘when’.

      I believe that your final suggestion above is not only possible but inevitable. Politicians are often little more than the public face and legitimizers of the multinational corporations and financiers that actually run the world. As both (highly intertwined) groups wake up to the very real threat to their incomes and power bases that CF represents, it seems very likely that we will see pre-emptive moves in the direction of monopoly control of cold fusion, even if some ‘accident’ is required to allow appropriate legislation to be put in place worldwide.

      Probably the only reason that this has not occurred so far is that TPTB are to some extent ‘hoist with their own petard’ (meaning injured by a device of their own making) by their choice of meeting the challenge with denial in the MSM and ridicule online. When this strategy turns instead to overt recognition accompanied by strangely uniform and fake ‘concerns’ about safety, we’ll know that the game is afoot.

      • Ophelia Rump

        The greater good is not served by disposing of concepts like personal property and ownership for convenience or expedience. If you look carefully you will find that looters fight among themselves to preserve the concept, when it regards their new found property.

        I humbly submit that we will know when the rights of a few have been disproportionately favored over the rest of humanity when there is no economically fair alternative to generate your own power from LENR, and the energy is delivered to you through a meter.

        I think it a far more likely scenario that the Energy-Catalyzer will be classified a nuclear device requiring specialized high security handling. You will first become aware of this change in attitude when articles in the media begin to refer to the devices energy generation capacity in relation to the energy of nuclear weapons. IE: a 1 MW plant having 103 catalyzers each containing the stored energy of a Hiroshima sized atomic bomb, ignoring the fact that the same could be said of an appropriately sized lump of cheese, or pencil eraser.

        The notion that governments would intercede for the benefit of their general citizenry is naive and borders on delusional. Would it be a better world if governments occasionally did? Yes without a doubt, and yet they do not.

        Perhaps someone will write a new article:
        “Is there a case for regulating the E-Cat as a nuclear reactor?”
        If LENR devices become sequestered behind razor-wire, this will be the justification. This is precisely the line of reasoning which made it impossible to proceed with the E-Cat a home system and forced it into the industrial market.
        The lingering question is, will it stay there?

        • Omega Z

          Ophelia

          Existing safety regulations will limit temps to about 350’C for residential use.
          Other then that, I think the technology already has it’s own limits. There is little need for outside influence. It’s only economically viable home use at this time would be as base load heating paired with a conventional heating system for peek demand periods. Even for that it needs a COP>10.

          At residential scale, This technology doesn’t even produce cheap electricity once you include the hardware costs. In fact it is to the contrary. It will cost more then the present grid power. Which by the way will decline once the energy companies switch to LENR power generation. Aside from improvements in LENR technology, we need major improvements in many others to make this residential friendly.

      • Alberonn

        Excellently formulated Fortyniner, this is exactly what will happen imho : we should live in fear for any positive recognition of LENR and/or the E-Cat in the msm, until largescale commercial production of E-Cats – preferably outside the reach of multinational corporations/financiers, so : China – is rolled out…

  • Alain Samoun

    “Technology leadership is not defined by patents”
    Elon Musk after making Tesla motor patents open source.

    • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

      Open sourcing is a concept where an idea is made freely accessible, so that others may add to it. Ubuntu.
      The capability of achieving results should not be protected, it should be made free.
      Not everyone is capable: those who are, and keep being more capable than others, reap the reward.
      And society benefits from the race.

      • georgehants

        Fredda what you say is just a part of finding the “best” system for all of society and not just more for the few.
        I am told the World is not ready for such thinking.
        Nice to meet you, 🙂

        • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

          I know it seems utopian.
          We hereby hit the issue of how, why and who distributes or allocates the necessary natural resources that get used, and affected. Or the issue of who pays for possible negative consequences on the environment.

          Laissez-faire has that dilemma buit into it.

          • georgehants

            Fredda, agreed, all problems, but until there is a will there cannot be a way.
            I have always believed that human beings are very good at finding a way, if they have the will.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            The will on its own is too dangerous. We need conscience.
            So “until there is a will with conscience, there cannot be a way”. I subscribe to that.

          • georgehants

            “Conscience” what a big word.
            Best

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            True.
            My preferred meaning is the latin con-scientia, indicating a degree of awareness, knowledge. Too much “moral” and ethical debate otherwise.
            How do we express a will that takes into account the consequences of its act?
            Words do have meanings.

          • US_Citizen71

            A hungry man will do whatever it takes to fill his empty stomach and those of his children without conscience. Until all have enough to eat, a warm safe place to sleep and plenty of clean water to drink conscience is an unaffordable luxury for many. An obese man that lets food rot in his larder rather than give it away to those who are starving does not suffer from a lack of conscience, but a lack of humanity, his actions do not cause the problem they just prevent a possible solution to it.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            Sorry US Citizen, I do not agree.
            There are plenty of examples of starving people, for example in Mediterranean Europe before WWII, who actually lived socially as best they could: with very little food, in cold shacks, but with infinite dignity. Speaking of direct experience, as I witnessed the stories of those people. Dignity and conscience, knowledge of the consequences of our actions, are not a surplus. I have seen people in African townships giving away their own food for a guest, or a child on his own. This is heroism. And it is the bread upon which the soul doth feed.
            Human beings are not inhumane unless they choose to be. At all levels of the social ladder.

    • Omega Z

      Alain

      And therein lies the genius in what Elon Musk did. He presented it as open source. Free: Everyone repeats this as you do.

      Recall the VHS/BETA format. VHS won. Elon has hedged his bets. So-called Giving away his proprietary technology. His is the VHS format that wins out in the market.

      No, It isn’t Free. It comes with many caveats. You have to do this, this & this AND You can’t do this or this Etc..

      TESLA, It’s all about selling Cars. And they are installing Charging stations around the Country. Can’t sell Ev’s if you have no place to plug in. And if you buy a Tesla, Charging is free. It least for the time being. Costs a lot of money to install these stations all over the country. Let a competitor help you.

      And here is the Big Caveat if you accept Elon’s terms for free or reduced price license. When installing charging stations around the country, They have to be Tesla compatible & fee free charging, at least for Tesla car owners.

      A Tesla owner no longer has to worry about whether a charging station is compatible, Only where they are located & this deal will proliferate their presence everywhere.

      Now, There may be legal issues if only Tesla vehicles are fee free charging, so I’ll assume Musk’s technology is AI & can Identify you vehicle by serial number & Tesla has a payment arrangement. As far as that goes, It may even be capable of running a full diagnostics on Tesla vehicles & send a report to the Corporate headquarters. They’ll know you have a problem before you do & tell you to head for an authorized repair center. He is a Shrewd Business Genius.

  • Alain Samoun

    “Technology leadership is not defined by patents”
    Elon Musk after making Tesla motor patents open source.

    • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

      Open sourcing is a concept where an idea is made freely accessible, so that others may add to it. Ubuntu.
      The capability of achieving results should not be protected, it should be made free.
      Not everyone is capable: those who are, and keep being more capable than others, reap the reward.
      And society benefits from the race.

      • georgehants

        Fredda what you say is just a part of finding the “best” system for all of society and not just more for the few.
        I am told the World is not ready for such thinking.
        Nice to meet you, 🙂

        • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

          I know it seems utopian.
          We hereby hit the issue of how, why and who distributes or allocates the necessary natural resources that get used, and affected. Or the issue of who pays for possible negative consequences on the environment.

          Laissez-faire has that dilemma buit into it.

          • georgehants

            Fredda, agreed, all problems, but until there is a will there cannot be a way.
            I have always believed that human beings, if not brainwashed into apathy, are very good at finding a way when they have the will.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            The will on its own is too dangerous. We need conscience.
            So “until there is a will with conscience, there cannot be a way”. I subscribe to that.

          • georgehants

            “Conscience” what a big word.
            Best

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            True.
            My preferred meaning is the latin con-scientia, indicating a degree of awareness, knowledge. Too much “moral” and ethical debate otherwise.
            How do we express a will that takes into account the consequences of its act?
            Words do have meanings.

          • US_Citizen71

            A hungry man will do whatever it takes to fill his empty stomach and those of his children without conscience. Until all have enough to eat, a warm safe place to sleep and plenty of clean water to drink conscience is an unaffordable luxury for many. An obese man that lets food rot in his larder rather than give it away to those who are starving does not suffer from a lack of conscience, but a lack of humanity, his actions do not cause the problem they just prevent a possible solution to it.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            Sorry US Citizen, I do not agree.
            There are plenty of examples of starving people, for example in Mediterranean Europe before WWII, who actually lived socially as best they could: with very little food, in cold shacks, but with infinite dignity. Speaking of direct experience, as I witnessed the stories of those people. Dignity and conscience, knowledge of the consequences of our actions, are not a surplus. I have seen people in African townships giving away their own food for a guest, or a child on his own. This is heroism. And it is the bread upon which the soul doth feed.
            Human beings are not inhumane unless they choose to be. At all levels of the social ladder.

    • Omega Z

      Alain

      And therein lies the genius in what Elon Musk did. He presented it as open source. Free: Everyone repeats this as you do.

      Recall the VHS/BETA format. VHS won. Elon has hedged his bets. So-called Giving away his proprietary technology. His is the VHS format that wins out in the market.

      No, It isn’t Free. It comes with many caveats. You have to do this, this & this AND You can’t do this or this Etc..

      TESLA, It’s all about selling Cars. And they are installing Charging stations around the Country. Can’t sell Ev’s if you have no place to plug in. And if you buy a Tesla, Charging is free. It least for the time being. Costs a lot of money to install these stations all over the country. Let a competitor help you.

      And here is the Big Caveat if you accept Elon’s terms for free or reduced price license. When installing charging stations around the country, They have to be Tesla compatible & fee free charging, at least for Tesla car owners.

      A Tesla owner no longer has to worry about whether a charging station is compatible, Only where they are located & this deal will proliferate their presence everywhere.

      Now, There may be legal issues if only Tesla vehicles are fee free charging, so I’ll assume Musk’s technology is AI & can Identify you vehicle by serial number & Tesla has a payment arrangement. As far as that goes, It may even be capable of running a full diagnostics on Tesla vehicles & send a report to the Corporate headquarters. They’ll know you have a problem before you do & tell you to head for an authorized repair center. He is a Shrewd Business Genius.

  • friendlyprogrammer

    I still think there is no invention. I believe the ecat is real, but that it is simply a container with the right stuff inside like a wood stove.

    So how do they patent a fancy box?

    It is a dilemma I’m sure they are not focused upon.

    Also.. Once the science of this is fully understood the Math prodigies will maximize the potentials and we will see something much more powerful than the reactions of today if we look at how many discoveries improve over time.

    I have always maintained that the ecat will be mass produced by people pirating the idea in their basements. Disgruntled out of work Solar/Wind and Hot Fusion researchers will happily build units for friends and family at cheaper than legit prices. Police could not even stop someone with a trunk full of pirated ecats because there is nothing contraband about a trunk full of metal containers.

    Licensing will be abundant to compensate, but can we really say the ecat is an invention if it is nothing but a jar full of the right stuff?

    • MasterBlaster7

      Well ya…until they pass a law….they do that u know haha. Like this 2005 thingy above.

      As for the mixture? I wonder if a patent would be denied as a recipe….on the mixture alone. Recipe’s are non-patentable…just ask KFC and their secret spice.

      The important thing is…that there is a commercial success…and that these patents are granted retro-actively….then you can sort out the tangle….just hope its not a gordion knot.

      • friendlyprogrammer

        Even if a law was passed banning ecat pirating (it would already be illegal if patented), there would still be problems finding units. Those building and transporting any in bulk could simply say they are flower pots if caught by customs, or local police. They would not be LENR devices without LENR actually going on.

        But yes. The entire patentablility of the ecat has always been a question to me.

        • Omega Z

          That is probably why a while back that Rossi said they were actively involved in patenting the most optimal reactor designs.

          By the way, I think you can legally? duplicate just about any patented item. Just can’t sell it or give it away cause then they will put you away. And this does not extend to copyrights. If you built an E-cat complete with LOGO, your in trouble even if you don’t give it away or sell it.

          I place the “?” because it may be that some law somewhere that says otherwise but it just isn’t enforced if it’s something for only your use & contains no copyright identifier/material.

          • US_Citizen71

            Under US law I believe you are correct. You can even build your own automatic weapon here as long as it is for personal use.

        • MasterBlaster7

          OK…let me sort that out a little bit….

          “Even if a law was passed banning ecat pirating (it would already be illegal if patented)”

          nah….it would only be illegal “for sale”. If you did a do-it-yourself e-cat….entirely legal under patent law. Patent law protects your right in commerce. The only way to get a ruling against “infringer X” is that infringer X built and sold your idea for profit. Then you could get money from those profits. do-it-yourself stuff is just fine.

          Yah. Probably e-cat parts may be fine. If you get a piece here and a piece there for a do-it-yourself project.

          However. I think the REAL way that the government et. all would limit do-it-yourself projects would be to control the supply of nano-nickle. It is a highly toxic substance and hard to get a-hold of right now anyways. I think it would kinda be like fertilizer before/after the Oklahoma city bombings. Also, rocket fuel before/after the Oklahoma city bombings.

      • friendlyprogrammer

        I have suggested this idea here many times, but I suppose I could have been more clear for some. A while back one of my comments was turned into a post about the future of Cheap energy if LENR (or something else) is successful.

        I am not talking about a few people building it for themselves. I meant we will see an unprecedented amount of ecats in the black market, and not everyone will just be producing hundreds in their basements, there will be fully operational plants building black market units with automation and skilled workers.

        This will happen for a few reasons. The first is that the ecat does not look very complicated. If we examine some of the earlier models they appeared to be simple pipe surrounded by lead and tin foil. Once a functional unit is torn apart everyone will know the exact dimensions of an efficient model.

        Another reason that this will tear up the underground markets is that even if Rossi licensed a dozen manufacturers in every country (if he decides not to build them all himself in a Robot plant) they never would keep up with demand.

        If you are looking at $500 to heat your house for the winter or you can buy an ecat from the laid off solar panel distributor down the street for $200, what would you do?

        That doesn’t even include the electricity potentials of it. If an advanced ecat is put out that can create enough electricity to power a car or truck then there will be a demand for an extra 600 million as we all drive our gas guzzlers into the lake (or convert to hydrogen created on board).

        Laws will not stop me from putting one in my house, car, boat, and even the police would all likely want one as quick as possible.

        My age is showing here, but Cable television used to “scramble” their signals and subscribers needed to purchase a special descrambling box to watch HBO/Superchannels. Then somebody put out the pattern for a do it yourself $7 box that could be made yourself. Not many actually built this box, but those that did build them made hundreds and sold them for $50-$100. This is the type of thing that will happen if the ecat becomes easy to construct, and works well enough.

        I enjoy writing and took law courses as an extension of my knowledge of English, so I am somewhat familiar with what is legal here.

        I should also say this to Omega Z, as my building in basement comment also was misleading inferring I meant they would only build a few in their homes and for themselves. People will build them in their basements, but they will be doing it full time.

        Let’s now imagine that the government actually cared about the blackmarket ecats and wanted to stop their sale because too much taxes are being lost. How would you suggest they do it?

        Imagine a hundred shipping containers arrived in port from china filled with fake ecats. What is illegal? The Chinese shipper could call them flower pots and nobody could say otherwise. They could even stick a plant in one to prove it.

        Are they going to make metal/lead containers contraband?

        Even the ingredients cannot be made illegal.

        Operator: Hello 911
        Snitch: Yeah I saw my friend with a bag of powdered Nickel
        Operator: (click from hanging up phone)

        Rossi’s best hope would be to license as many people as possible and keep the price low. Sell a holographic sticker that can be attached like Microsoft puts on any windows based computer.

        If you use rational thought, you will see stopping blackmarket “containers” might seem foolish.

    • Ophelia Rump

      I believe that there have been more than one patent for wood stoves.
      Ultimately all processes which are possible are possible within the constraints of natural law. Any determination of natural or un-natural is therefore an arbitrary determination.

  • MasterBlaster7

    Hu…I didn’t know the government could do that. Similar to Eminent Domain. Good info.

    • Omega Z

      Yep, So keep that secret sauce recipe to yourself for a while. Message received…

      • MasterBlaster7

        Nah…all the can do is take your idea….make it….then give you money. It is really not a bad law. If there is something so profoundly useful to society (say a working e-cat)…..and say Rossi goes crazy…er…crazier…and decide to stop developing the e-cat…the government could take it…and make it…then force royalties on Rossi. Not going to happen…but it could in other situations.

  • MasterBlaster7

    Hu…I didn’t know the government could do that. Similar to Eminent Domain. Good info.

    • Omega Z

      Yep, So keep that secret sauce recipe to yourself for a while. Message received…

      • MasterBlaster7

        Nah…all the can do is take your idea….make it….then give you money. It is really not a bad law. If there is something so profoundly useful to society (say a working e-cat)…..and say Rossi goes crazy…er…crazier…and decide to stop developing the e-cat…the government could take it…and make it…then force royalties on Rossi. Not going to happen…but it could in other situations.

  • MasterBlaster7

    Well ya…until they pass a law….they do that u know haha. Like this 2005 thingy above.

    As for the mixture? I wonder if a patent would be denied as a recipe….on the mixture alone. Recipe’s are non-patentable…just ask KFC and their secret spice.

    The important thing is…that there is a commercial success…and that these patents are granted retro-actively….then you can sort out the tangle….just hope its not a gordion knot.

    • friendlyprogrammer

      I have suggested this idea here many times, but I suppose I could have been more clear for some. A while back one of my comments was turned into a post about the future of Cheap energy if LENR (or something else) is successful.

      I am not talking about a few people building it for themselves. I meant we will see an unprecedented amount of ecats in the black market, and not everyone will just be producing hundreds in their basements, there will be fully operational plants building black market units with automation and skilled workers.

      This will happen for a few reasons. The first is that the ecat does not look very complicated. If we examine some of the earlier models they appeared to be simple pipe surrounded by lead and tin foil. Once a functional unit is torn apart everyone will know the exact dimensions of an efficient model.

      Another reason that this will tear up the underground markets is that even if Rossi licensed a dozen manufacturers in every country (if he decides not to build them all himself in a Robot plant) they never would keep up with demand.

      If you are looking at $500 to heat your house for the winter or you can buy an ecat from the laid off solar panel distributor down the street for $200, what would you do?

      That doesn’t even include the electricity potentials of it. If an advanced ecat is put out that can create enough electricity to power a car or truck then there will be a demand for an extra 600 million as we all drive our gas guzzlers into the lake (or convert to hydrogen created on board).

      Laws will not stop me from putting one in my house, car, boat, and even the police would all likely want one as quick as possible.

      My age is showing here, but Cable television used to “scramble” their signals and subscribers needed to purchase a special descrambling box to watch HBO/Superchannels. Then somebody put out the pattern for a do it yourself $7 box that could be made yourself. Not many actually built this box, but those that did build them made hundreds and sold them for $50-$100. This is the type of thing that will happen if the ecat becomes easy to construct, and works well enough.

      I enjoy writing and took law courses as an extension of my knowledge of English, so I am somewhat familiar with what is legal here.

      I should also say this to Omega Z, as my building in basement comment also was misleading inferring I meant they would only build a few in their homes and for themselves. People will build them in their basements, but they will be doing it full time.

      Let’s now imagine that the government actually cared about the blackmarket ecats and wanted to stop their sale because too much taxes are being lost. How would you suggest they do it?

      Imagine a hundred shipping containers arrived in port from china filled with fake ecats. What is illegal? The Chinese shipper could call them flower pots and nobody could say otherwise. They could even stick a plant in one to prove it.

      Are they going to make metal/lead containers contraband?

      Even the ingredients cannot be made illegal.

      Operator: Hello 911
      Snitch: Yeah I saw my friend with a bag of powdered Nickel
      Operator: (click from hanging up phone)

      Rossi’s best hope would be to license as many people as possible and keep the price low. Sell a holographic sticker that can be attached like Microsoft puts on any windows based computer.

      If you use rational thought, you will see stopping blackmarket “containers” might seem foolish.

  • Ophelia Rump

    I believe that there have been more than one patent for wood stoves.
    Ultimately all processes which are possible are possible within the constraints of natural law. Any determination of natural or un-natural is therefore an arbitrary determination.

  • Omega Z

    That is probably why a while back that Rossi said they were actively involved in patenting the most optimal reactor designs.

    By the way, I think you can legally? duplicate just about any patented item. Just can’t sell it or give it away cause then they will put you away. And this does not extend to copyrights. If you built an E-cat complete with LOGO, your in trouble even if you don’t give it away or sell it.

    I place the “?” because it may be that some law somewhere that says otherwise but it just isn’t enforced if it’s something for only your use & contains no copyright identifier/material.

    • US_Citizen71

      Under US law I believe you are correct. You can even build your own automatic weapon here as long as it is for personal use.

  • MasterBlaster7

    OK…let me sort that out a little bit….

    “Even if a law was passed banning ecat pirating (it would already be illegal if patented)”

    nah….it would only be illegal “for sale”. If you did a do-it-yourself e-cat….entirely legal under patent law. Patent law protects your right in commerce. The only way to get a ruling against “infringer X” is that infringer X built and sold your idea for profit. Then you could get money from those profits. do-it-yourself stuff is just fine.

    Yah. Probably e-cat parts may be fine. If you get a piece here and a piece there for a do-it-yourself project.

    However. I think the REAL way that the government et. all would limit do-it-yourself projects would be to control the supply of nano-nickle. It is a highly toxic substance and hard to get a-hold of right now anyways. I think it would kinda be like fertilizer before/after the Oklahoma city bombings. Also, rocket fuel before/after the Oklahoma city bombings.

  • Bernie777

    “The powers that be” do not want to eliminate LENR, they just want to delay it for a long, long time, and they have been doing a very good job so far. The result is the same, a lot of unnecessary suffering and deaths.

  • Bernie Koppenhofer

    “The powers that be” do not want to eliminate LENR, they just want to delay it for a long, long time, and they have been doing a very good job so far. The result is the same, a lot of unnecessary suffering and deaths.

  • Thomas Clarke

    I know this is not the license meant by the OP, but…

    Were the e-cat real there is no conceivable way it could be manufactured or switched on without a compulsory nuclear safety license.

    You will remember that Rossi received a visit from US NRPB officials and they went away when he said that he was not engaged in nuclear reactor manufacture.

    You might argue that LENR is different and does not have the same risks. How do you know? No-one understands how LENR works (if it works). If we are to take as real the apparent nuclear transformation of Nickel in the latest Rossi test this is clearly a nuclear reaction and such things usually have all sorts of nasty byproducts.

    Imagine a new nuclear reactor – say LiF – claimed to be much safer than current. You think that would allow its operation without stringent safety inspection?

    LENR is currently exempt from such licensing only because no-one seriously believes that nuclear reactions are happening. That is of course backed up by the lack of LENR researcher mortality due to cancer, and the lack of high energy particles of any description ever observed.

    Those who follow LENR on this site would not be happy were Rossi’s device to be proven to make nuclear transmutations. There would be an immediate requirement for licensing and nuclear safety certification. Home e-cat heaters a big no-no. So they should be glad that most think the Ni transmutation to be either innocent error (contamination) or fraud.

    Rossi has never obtained such certification. He has had wharehouses certified for safety (no dangerous manufacturing eqpt etc). He has never claimed, to the relevant safety authorities, that he has a nuclear device.

    • US_Citizen71

      This is nothing but your opinion. Currently almost every household in the US contains a device that relies on nuclear transmutation in order to operate. In many places this device is mandated to be present and in working order due to type and occupancy of the building. The device I refer to is a smoke alarm, it uses the transmutation of Americium 241 through radioactive decay to detect smoke particles.

      • Thomas Clarke

        Yes, and the quantity and type of radionuclide used is very carefully controlled, with decay products well understood.

        • US_Citizen71

          Yes and I can buy one with cash no forms to fill out and no registration needed.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Transmutation has been proven. It is quite real. You can certainly dispute the proof.
      But it remains proof which you are disputing.

      So now we are at that juncture which you mentioned. The proof of transmutation has been documented by scientists. Where is the US NRPB? Is this the pause before they kick the door in? I seriously doubt it.

      There is no better way to announce to the world that the thing you are trying to bury alive is indeed alive, than to kick the door in and publicly clamp into restraints.

      • Thomas Clarke

        We maybe have different notions of what proof means?

  • Thomas Clarke

    I know this is not the license meant by the OP, but…

    Were the e-cat real there is no conceivable way it could be manufactured or switched on without a compulsory nuclear safety license.

    You will remember that Rossi received a visit from US NRPB officials and they went away when he said that he was not engaged in nuclear reactor manufacture.

    You might argue that LENR is different and does not have the same risks. How do you know? No-one understands how LENR works (if it works). If we are to take as real the apparent nuclear transformation of Nickel in the latest Rossi test this is clearly a nuclear reaction and such things usually have all sorts of nasty byproducts.

    Imagine a new nuclear reactor – say LiF – claimed to be much safer than current. You think that would allow its operation without stringent safety inspection?

    LENR is currently exempt from such licensing only because no-one seriously believes that nuclear reactions are happening. That is of course backed up by the lack of LENR researcher mortality due to cancer, and the lack of high energy particles of any description ever observed.

    Those who follow LENR on this site would not be happy were Rossi’s device to be proven to make nuclear transmutations. There would be an immediate requirement for licensing and nuclear safety certification. Home e-cat heaters a big no-no. So they should be glad that most think the Ni transmutation to be either innocent error (contamination) or fraud.

    Rossi has never obtained such certification. He has had wharehouses certified for safety (no dangerous manufacturing eqpt etc). He has never claimed, to the relevant safety authorities, that he has a nuclear device.

    • US_Citizen71

      This is nothing but your opinion. Currently almost every household in the US contains a device that relies on nuclear transmutation in order to operate. In many places this device is mandated to be present and in working order due to type and occupancy of the building. The device I refer to is a smoke alarm, it uses the transmutation of Americium 241 through radioactive decay to detect smoke particles.

      • Thomas Clarke

        Yes, and the quantity and type of radionuclide used is very carefully controlled, with decay products well understood.

        • US_Citizen71

          Yes and I can buy one with cash no forms to fill out and no registration needed.

          • Thomas Clarke

            The certification is for the manufacturer, not you. Those devices are certified safe – like small lasers.

          • US_Citizen71

            Yes like light bulbs. The main thrust of your first comment was that nothing using a nuclear process would get a safety certification for home use ‘ Home e-cat heaters a big no-no.’ I am simply pointing out that is false as smoke detectors not only use a nuclear process and are licensed for home use but are required equipment in many buildings.

    • Ophelia Rump

      Transmutation has been proven. It is quite real. You can certainly dispute the proof.
      But it remains proof which you are disputing.

      So now we are at that juncture which you mentioned. The proof of transmutation has been documented by scientists. Where is the US NRPB? Is this the pause before they kick the door in? I seriously doubt it.

      There is no better way to announce to the world that the thing you are trying to bury alive is indeed alive, than to kick the door in and publicly clamp the upstart into restraints.

      It would make an interesting study in sociology for someone to call the NRPB and formally inform them of the existence of nuclear transmutations in the Industrial Heat product.

      The action would at once inform the world that LENR is real.

      • Thomas Clarke

        We maybe have different notions of what proof means?

  • US_Citizen71

    Yes like light bulbs. The main thrust of your first comment was that nothing using a nuclear process would get a safety certification for home use ‘ Home e-cat heaters a big no-no.’ I am simply pointing out that is false as smoke detectors not only use a nuclear process and are licensed for home use but are required equipment in many buildings.