MFMP to Conduct Second Live Test Today, January 2 — Live Thread

I just heard from Bob Greenyer of the Martin Fleischmann Memorial project who told me that there will be another Project Dog Bone test today.

He wrote at 1:00 p.m, US Central Time:

“Live experiment to assess pressure changes from heated Nickel + LiAlH4 using steel sheath reactor core, hopefully within 2-3 hours from now.”

Bob says there will be a live YouTube broadcast — so stay tuned to the MFMP web site for a link. I have to be on the road this afternoon, and might not be able to keep up with this event very closely. I will tune in where and when I can.

Please use this thread for comments on this new test — I will be grateful for your updates!

  • GreenWin

    Link? The MFMP site is quite dense.

  • Gerard McEk

    I which you a high COP Guys!

  • artefact

    HugNet ist working now

  • Curbina

    Did he say that the pressure is 420 psi few moments ago?

    • artefact

      Yes.

      • Curbina

        Well, then the seal is working fine now. I heard some talk about about what to do if it reachs 1000 psi, or I dreamed that?

        • artefact

          They said something about a 1000psi limit (probably set by themselfes). I heared that the ends should fly off first because of the heater coil supporting the middle If something goes wrong 🙂

          • Curbina

            🙂 thanks. I see the data streams show a pretty bumpy Geiger counter, but don’t know if it’s something related to the scale of the axis.

          • Axil Axil

            In his first reactor design, Rossi used bottled hydrogen gas to supply the reactor. In that design, the loss of hydrogen through leakage did not matter, but was dangerous. Metal releases hydrogen in vast amounts,,,some metals more than others.

            In his hydride feed design, hydrogen must be totally contained…it cannot leak. This design is not dangerous as an explosion risk.

          • Bob Greenyer

            First published responses by Dr. Alexander Parkhamov to MFMP questions are very good for our future experiments.

            []=Project Dog Bone=[]

            https://www.facebook.com/MartinFleischmannMemorialProject

        • Ged

          So far the curves are looking like the other runs, but this time we’ve got pressure, and a lot of it. Let’s see where this goes!

          Edit1: So much beard stroking action!

  • artefact

    Bob said Parkhomov. Is he following the experiment? That would be nice.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Here is the composite stream

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQlqzLzQDUA

  • artefact

    I watched Taylor some hours ago 🙂

  • Ged

    Step 1 was already ~30 C hotter (internal and external combined) than the calibration, but not sure if significant. It is only step 1. Before step 1, the curves were looking the same, which is good, as that meant the sensors were functioning the same (same behaviors at the onset).

    • Andreas Moraitis

      It’s only the external temperature that counts. The internal temperature does not allow conclusions about the released energy, so we could basically ignore it.

      • Ged

        Agreed. So far the similar behavior is a good sign that if there is something we may see it. Always that -if- though.

        • David_Kaiser_39

          the temperature was dropping at 00:50:00 from 671 down to 638, which is really strange – is it because the pressure is dropping, too. Again something leaking?

          • artefact

            They tried to find out if the pressure sensor gives normal reading if the temperature goes down a bit again i think.

          • Andreas Moraitis

            Pressure, and therefore temperature, will drop when hydrogen is loaded into the metal lattice. This would be the ‘regular’ case. Of course, it is also possible there are problems with the sensor or that hydrogen leaks out. But anyway a pressure drop was to be expected.

  • Ged

    Just adding edits to my post as they come :). Don’t want to spam with comments.

  • Bob Greenyer
    • Daniel Maris

      So what’s your summation Bob?

      • Bob Greenyer

        Well, we definitely saw the first breakdown of the LiAlH4 and we have hit over 35 bar of pressure in the cell which has an internal volume free for gas and powder of around 2.5cm^3. Around 500ºC the pressure began to drop.

        We are now at 300W about to raise again

        • Ged

          Is that constant pressure drop a slow leak (or nickel absorption perhaps)? Or is the instrument not up to handling the temp?

          • Bob Greenyer

            Don’t know – more study needed to know if it is an artefact or a fact

    • David Taylor-Fuller

      Is the date on that spreadsheet right for the main graph… should it be 2014-12-30. I am assuming thats todays data so I would expect it to be 2015-1-2

  • Andrea

    I remember there was effects like this in Celani replication or Rossi public experiment. Don’t you?

  • rats123

    Can someone provide a layman’s on what is happening?

    Also, was a calibration run before the test?

    • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

      I think they are doing a pressure test. Right now the pressures are all over the place and they are doubting their readings 🙂

      Not sure if they also look for excess heat, but if the reactor is loaded with fuel, this is probably a real run too.

      • Ged

        It’s got live fuel, and it’s holding a high pressure, so this may be a possible “proper” run unlike last time which was unsealed and thus couldn’t hold in any hydrogen. Unfortunately, the pressure seems to be steadily falling. Don’t know if there is a leak now or if the sensor just can’t handle the temps.

        Edit: Andreas brings up the good point the hydrogen could be loading into the nickel and causing the drop as seen in all other nickel systems. We’ll have to see what happens as temps rise more.

        • Zeddicus Zul Zorander

          Thanks for the update.

        • Freethinker

          Or it is all a function of what is happening, and it is about to be doing even more so…

      • Bob Greenyer

        Quick initial summary

        DB2Day showed two 4 important things.

        1. That LiAlH4 really does first breakdown at 120 to 180ºC
        2. That in a 2cc sealed reaction vessel – pressures can get very high (we saw around 35bar) – thus, in principle, supporting Alexander Parkhamov’s calculations.
        3. That stainless steel is terrible at storing pressurised H2 at elevated temperatures – above 500ºC it appeared to start to fail in this function and so is unsuitable for these experiments.
        4. Regardless of the core, the external temperatures stay in calibration for an input temperature, this is evidence to support Lugano findings.

        • Ged

          It amazed me how much gas pressure the LiAlH4 could generate. A very clever way to get a very high hydrogen pressure in the reactor, indeed. Definitely supports its use as a hydrogen delivery system.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Agreed – if you have the right kind of structure to hold the hydrogen evolved, it is a great way to create high pressures.

          • Ged

            Sounds like the next big step is figuring out the right structure to hold all that high pressure hydrogen. Hopefully the alumina wool/glass seal can accomplish that — and now you have a way to test, so this should be a quick issue to answer.

            Edit: Also, we now know the handling methods for the LiAlH4 are completely appropriate, and it survives loading when not hit by that particular water based sealant.

          • Bob Greenyer

            That is a very good point Ged, thanks, we have actually made a device to test the effectiveness of sealing methods.

          • ivanidso

            Can the Alumina tube be threaded and a removable cap used?

        • Axil Axil

          Let us not underestimate Rossi.
          The account of how Rossi loaded the fuel into the alumina tubes told by the TPR2 report does not sound like Rossi when through a complicated time consuming and/or involved alumina sealing process to protect against hydrogen leakage. These recent test by MFMP indicate that sealing alumina from hydrogen leakage is a challenge. But the Rossi Hot Cat did run for weeks without apparent loss of hydrogen. Rossi has come up with a way to seal alumina.

          How could have Rossi made the alumina tube resistant to hydrogen leakage?

          Could Rossi have used a self sealing additive to the fuel mix that entered the pores of the alumina to minimize hydrogen exfiltration?

          There was a large amount of carbon in the element analysis of the fuel load. Could it be that Rossi used a organic sealant to stop hydrogen leakage?

          An excerpt from the report:

          “Besides the analyzed elements it has been found that the fuel also contains rather high concentrations of C, Ca, Cl, Fe, Mg, Mn and these are not found in the ash.”

          Where did all those elements go? Could it be that the C, Ca, Cl, Fe, Mg, and Mn were nano particles used to seal the fuel including hydrogen by blocking the pores of the alumina in a self anodizing process? Carbon is a well know hydrogen blocker.
          .

        • Gerard McEk

          Bob, did you consider to do a helium leak test?

          • Bob Greenyer

            no

        • Bob could a COP factor be proven even if the hydrogen leaks? George Miley’s CF device is two devices working together where he constantly drains and refills hydrogen. While one is producing excess energy the other is draining then refilling then visa versa. His gain graft looks like two waves, one declining as the other rises.
          Couldn’t LENR be substantiated before the leak or does it have to go beyond the higher temp.

          • Bob Greenyer

            I think we need to ensure no leak first. What we actually demonstrated last night – as Ged pointed out, was a testing platform for sealing Alumina. The core inside the stainless yesterday was effectively open at each end (the “fuel” was held in by Alumina felt). So between 125ºC and 180ºC when the first change in LiAlH4 released H2, we saw a HUGE leap in pressure.

            If we use the same system but with cores that we have attempted to seal, we will know by 200ºC if the seal has failed or not – a positive outcome would be indicated by only a marginal pressure increase. We would also be able to see if the Alumina type is porous.

          • Axil Axil

            Metallic nano-powder will seal the space between two surfaces through annealing when a mechanical force is applied to compress the metalic nano-powder.

            see

            http://www.nature.com/srep/2013/131029/srep03066/full/srep03066.html#supplementary-information
            I suggest that you try out this method of sealing the fuel loading end of the tube. The plug on the end must fit tightly. Rossi may have used this sealing method.

          • Bob Greenyer

            We had discussed the Moly-Manganese method with Morgan Ceramics within days of the Lugano report. We are going to speak with them again about making us core parts or just the “thermowell plug”. Real advantage is this is an established method and will be very repeatable.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Not sure the systems are the same and therefore comparable. The Lugano and Parkhamov data suggests excess heat above 950ºC with the hydrogen under pressure.

        • Sanjeev

          If there were no leak, it would have reached 70-100 atm, and then would have started to drop because of adsorption into Ni. Thats just a speculation.
          Another guess, at high temperature and pressure, it may form an alloy/mixture of Ni, Li, Al etc, which will have a higher melting point than pure Ni. This can support the claim of temperatures nearing melting point of Ni in hot cat core. Ni either melted and still kept working or it didn’t because it formed alloys.

          You need a good pressure sensor, since it started showing pressures less than atmospheric pressure, which means its no more reliable.
          Like someone suggested, it will be good to place a magnetic field sensor nearby, just for curiosity. I suggest fixing the shield permanently on the support near the reactor instead of placing it on the table.

          The lag in data takes away the fun ;-). Is it possible to broadcast the data with the video, like place a big TV in front of the camera, like DGT did.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Hi Sanjeev,

            I have been working on a solution for that and you will have seen more on the combined stream this time.

            For the tests at the end of the month / early Feb, we aim to have the realtime data on the composite HD stream.

  • artefact

    Could it be that the frame is resonating a bit in the airflow generated by the hot bone and that is what makes the pressure reading go up and down. Touching the frame and hold on it could give an answer if it is not a stupid idea.

  • Freethinker

    The pressure oscillations are interesting. The averaging function of data in the hugnet app show now a more vivid oscillation, but a slight downward trend. Loading increasing? Perhaps there is some exciting things about to happen…

    • uDevil

      There’s likely a simple explanation. A leak could cause the overall pressure to drop and also cause oscillations– the reactor chamber could act like a whistle. If they’re locally sampling the pressure at a higher frequency than we can see at hugnet, they can do Fourier analysis to see if the oscillations correspond to the dimensions of the chamber.

      • Ged

        Looks like putting a capacitor across the pressure transducer cleaned up the pressure readings. No more oscillations, just a nice smooth downward curve.

        • uDevil

          That would do it… But they can also filter after the test if desired.

    • Heikki

      Are those pressure oscillations in sync with temperature changes or am I imagining things 🙂 ? Why would pressure go down when temperature increases and vice versa?

      • Obvious

        I’m wondering if there is a small leak at the pressure transducer connection. Sort of burping out at a threshold, causing pulses of pressure up/down.

  • Ged

    Well, the external temps are remarkably the same as the other two runs. but the internal is much hotter. Don’t know what to think about that. However, the dogbone also bled dry according to the pressure transducer after the 190 W step, losing its hydrogen, so it’s unlikely a reaction was possible.

  • Ged

    I think all the hydrogen leaked out when the stainless steel started to heat up, sadly. Not sure how much we can trust the pressure transducer readings, but they have a nice exponential decay slope near the end. Rapid hydrogen loss till that point though, so probably a dead core — but closer to holding pressure in!

  • NT

    Interesting experiment, but it looks like stainless steel does not up well to holding Hydrogen at elevated temperatures?

    • Ged

      Yeah… it really turned into wet swiss cheese at 500 C. Totally unsuitable.

  • Ged

    Looks like the run is over!

    From what I can see:

    1) Hydrogen leaked out of the cell steadily and rapidly, seemingly starting around 237 W after the LiAlH2 had disassociated and the stainless steel grew above 500 C. The pressure hit a max around 500 PSI.

    2) The internal temps were quite a bit higher than the other two runs, but the external temps were spot on with the other two.

    3) With that loss of hydrogen, it’s unlikely a reaction could take place. We’ll need a much better seal… If the pressure transducer was accurate.

    That’s just my notes, have to see what the MFMP autopsy has to say to really know the full details, and their analysis.

    Great work by our intrepid team again, bringing us really interesting data, and another step down the road!

  • Bob Greenyer

    You mean there is a day off – why didn’t anyone tell us about that, dammit, when was it?

  • Bob Greenyer

    We are using a variac for now – later this should be possible.

  • LCD

    Just keep at it guys, you’ll get it straightened out. I wish I could contribute more but I’m not in a position to do so these days.
    I did read Pekka’s comments on the temperature gradient and it seems to me that I’m not really sure where the temperature probes are located and what is the inner and outer temperature. Can somebody put up a really really simple diagram of where they are located to see if the temperature gradient should be hogher/lower than it is.
    Thanks

  • georgehants

    It would seem that two people already have all the information required to make these tests successful. Mr Rossi and Mr. Parkhamov.
    It would seem that a good reason must be given from both of them if they are not willing to text to MFMP all necessary data to replicate their findings.
    The World continues to suffer while this information is not freely available to all.

    • George, did you see this story below from stefenski?

      • georgehants

        Barry, yes, the corruption of capitalism and greed surrounds us all, one day in the far future their may be a change in the reasoning abilities of the human race that could lead to less suffering, but at this time my confidence is not high.
        Hope.

    • Axil Axil

      There is a difference between the capabilities shown by Rossi compared to those shown by Parkhamov. Rossi’s reactor was shown to function at a constant performance level for a month, and Parkhamov’s reactor for only a matter of hours.

      • georgehants

        Axil, sorry but I cannot understand the connection of your comment to mine.

        • Axil Axil

          Parkhamov is just started and is where Rossi was three years ago.
          When you give up control, you give up everything…even the ability to help other less fortunate people. Only the rich can be philanthropists.

          • georgehants

            Axil, you seem to be suggesting that Mr Parkhamov will/should not give out anymore information, that will be interesting to see, if he is now stung by the capitalistic greed.
            You say —–
            “Only the rich can be philanthropists.”
            The definition is —–
            A philanthropist is someone who engages in philanthropy; that is, someone who donates his or her time, money, and/or reputation to charitable causes.
            ——
            I find that rather insulting to the millions of un-rich people that give their time etc to help those less fortunate.

  • Curbina

    Comparing hydrogen leakage through stainless steel, to ions leakage through RO filters is like comparing grapes to water melons, just saying.

  • timycelyn

    Good point Anatoliy.

    Bob, a control run of the stainless cell sounds worthwhile – this would then allow you to definitely ascribe the loss of H2 to leakage (bad), as opposed to adsorption (good) onto the nickel.

    Also, was the cell evacuated before the run, or was it at atmospheric pressure at the start (and if so, what gas was in there?). One might expect a 4-5 bar pressure rise due to heating of the inert gaseous contents, which would be superimposed on the larger pressure rise due to the emission of H from the LiAlH4.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Yes. This may be a factor. First we may need to ensure we have a good sealing approach.

  • Ward claimed he started out in hopes of saving people with a fireproof plastic barrier. He could have made the world a better place, but took his secrets to the grave. Because of his greed many will die that could have been saved.

    Another reason for open sourcing and setting the ego aside.

  • Axil Axil

    http://luratia.com/graphene/graphene-is-impermeable

    Graphene is impermeable to all gases including hydrogen but it will let water through like it was not even there,

    http://phys.org/news/2012-01-graphene-supermaterial-superpermeable.html

    I segest a surface coating of nano Graphene produced by an application of nano powdered Graphene on the inside surface of the Alumina tube to keep the hydrogen in.

    The GO membrain

    http://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1112/1112.3488.pdf

    I believe this use of Nano Graphene to make the inside surface of the alumina impermeable to gas exfiltration was the reason why large amounts of carbon was found in the fuel load of Rossi’s Hot Cat.

  • Sanjeev

    Internal temperatures cannot be compared because of a different core used. Here are the actual comparisons (2nd sheet)

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1N0Y4qSVf7su5XU202sUSOEKGRknt4cgiWl6Vf7A_mIQ/edit#gid=1738881741

  • Sanjeev

    Yes, but he attached a large can of hydrogen to it. Perhaps to maintain some pressure.
    I guess there was some lead also.

  • Bob Greenyer

    They ran at a much lower temperature and we do not know for certain the internal structure

    • Andreas Moraitis

      Below 500C a steel chamber should be tight, although probably not enough to hold the pressure for several months. But it might be worth trying to build and test a low-temp reactor, conceivably with larger grains (about 8 microns?) and KAlH4. Low-temp devices would be ideal for domestic heating and much less dangerous than their high-temp relatives.

  • Gerard McEk

    It surely looks like a small temperature elevation in the order of 40 degrees C. I would be slightly happy, being on the right road.
    There is of course another possibility to compensate for a leakage, while you are looking for a solution. Maybe you can connect it for the time being to a H2 bottle and control the pressure externally. That gives you also the opportunity to investigate the relation Pressure vs Temperature also.

  • JDM

    In either of these two dogbone tests was a DC offset introduced to the heaters or alternatively, a permanent magnet brought close to the reactor?

    • Bob Greenyer

      No.

      In DBDay, there was no pressure.
      In DB2Day, pressure was relieved by the steel before temperature of 950ºC ( based on Lugano and Parkhamov, above this temperature is where excess heat was reported )

      • JDM

        I was wondering about the importance of this sentence from the Lugano report:
        ” In addition, the resistor coils are fed with some specific electromagnetic pulses”
        Seems that there might need to be something more than just heat to kickstart the thing.

        • Bob Greenyer

          This guy seams to be posting everywhere and is very specific.
          Dimitrija Angelkov
          if you want cold fusion use frequency 1420mhz with small voltage and big current.

          We are trying to establish on what basis he is making this statement

          • Andreas Moraitis

            That’s the frequency of the 21 cm hydrogen line:

            http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_line

          • Andreas Moraitis

            About the length of the Hot-Cat…

          • artefact

            Interesting! and a half wave of Parkhomovs tube….

          • Mr. Moho

            The alumina tube Parkhomov used has reportedly a 120mm length, but if we take into account the inner volume it could indeed be about 105mm long.

            However, assuming that this a critical detail needed to make the reactor work, then Parkhomov’s likely worked out of sheer coincidence.

            I guess this implies that an exact replication is needed.

          • Mr. Moho

            This is the reactor description in the third party report:

            Its external appearance is that of an alumina cylinder, 2 cm in diameter and 20 cm in length, ending on both sides with two cylindrical alumina blocks (4 cm in diameter, 4 cm in length), non-detachable from the body of the reactor, which henceforth will be referred to as “caps”

            Measurements could be approximate.

          • Bob Greenyer

            Just like a microwave oven – my favourite example of how man takes a natural capability of nature and turned it to a useful purpose that does not naturally occur in nature.

          • georgehants

            clovis, Happy new year to you.

  • Leonard Weinstein

    Molybdenum metal is very high temperature metal. If a thin walled Molybdenum tube had a very thin Rhenium coat (the only metal resistant to H2 cracking) on the interior and a Al2O3 coat outside, followed by a Molybdenum wire resistor for heater, and a final thicker Al2O3 external coat, the wall gas seal and pressure structure can be made very durable and resistant to very high temperature. These materials would not be too expensive (compared with the rest of the system) in the quantities needed. Sealing the ends would require a precision forced plug, with thick external ceramic cement layer for sealing and strength.

    • Bob Greenyer

      We are considering that

  • Leonard Weinstein

    Tungsten is an alternative to Molybdenum. Since the tube would be protected from exposure to air by the ceramic coat, the metal would not oxidize. Both Tungsten and Molybdenum are relatively inexpensive (a few dollars per ounce), but hard to work due to their high melting points. In production, there would be no problem (e.g, filaments in light bulbs). Rhenium is much more expensive ($70/oz), but only a small fraction of an ounce for a coat would be needed to protect against H2 cracking.

    • Axil Axil

      I believe that Rossi used Moly nano powder as a high temperature sealant. He could have used moly nano-powder as a mated surface sealant or alternatively, he could have used moly to seal the alumina pore structure throughout the inside surface of the alumina inner tube.

      See

      http://www.nature.com/srep/2013/131029/srep03066/full/srep03066.html#supplementary-information

      • Bob Greenyer

        This is our preferred, repeatable way of sealing Al2O3 – we have been working with Morgan Ceramics to make parts since a few days after the Lugano report and was discussed in the video here:

        http://youtu.be/uaHq8BIS7Vs?t=1m18s

        Look at the specs here for AL995 (99.5% Alumina) – their material science expert recommended this or syntox for use with Lithium in vapour phase and for structural integrity at the high temperatures. The AL995 is suitable for moly-manganese metalizing for high temperature brazing of assemblies

        http://www.morgantechnicalceramics.com/materials/alumina-al203/98-alumina

        Here is one of many discussions that can be found on the subject by a provider

        http://www.compamed.de/cipp/md_compamed/custom/pub/content,oid,20549/lang,2/ticket,g_u_e_s_t/~/Moly_Manganese_Metallization_on_Ceramics.html

        “PFC metallization systems are suitable for Aluminum Oxide (Alumina) from 94% to 99.5% and, depending on the ceramic body source, strength of the metallization usually exceeds 22,000 PSI. “

        • Albert D. Kallal

          And what about possibility of having threads on the plug? And addition of a gasket?

          Such a design would also facilitate ease of changing out the inner plug since and remove the issue of

          Regards,
          Albert D. Kallal
          Edmonton, Alberta Canada

          • Bob Greenyer

            This would involve extremely expensive custom Alumina parts. Since at least two parties (IH and Dr. Parkhamov) claim to have had success with alumina based cements, can we be sure of the value of testing a completely different method when there is already a family of approaches that seamed to have worked twice before.

          • Scroll down on the MFMP’s facebook page. https://www.facebook.com/MartinFleischmannMemorialProject

  • David Taylor-Fuller

    Bob any ideas on when the next set of tests will be?

    • Bob Greenyer

      No, we have learnt a lot over the past few tests.

      Ideally we hope to get some feedback from Alexander – in the meantime, we will get some Schott Al2O3 CTE matched bonding glass powder to seal Alumina tubes and possibly, now that we know we have the 1650ºC SiC elements on their way from India, finally get round to seeking quotes from Morgan Ceramics on custom core tube / thermo well inserts with MolyMag brazing sealant pre-applied ready for predictable assembly.

      Hopefully the Optris PI160 will arrive by the 19th and we will have the other components in place.

      • David Taylor-Fuller

        Thanks for the quick answer to my question. Eagerly awaiting the next set of runs.

      • psi2u2

        Maybe this is the place to say what Bob is not saying, which is that I am sure MFMP can use donations, of any size up to a few hundreds of thousands of dollars or more, to help goose this project. I’ve dropped a few of my pennies into the bucket, and I hope that others will do the same.

  • Bob Greenyer

    That was for lower temperature reactors and we have no idea what the fuel was in them. We are going with the strongest evidence.

    • Eyedoc

      OK, Thanks for both answers, I just thought sealing them was easier, but apparently not ! ….I continue to live and learn 🙂

  • Kim

    Why are we stuck on cylinders?

    Place the fuel the center of a golf ball size alumina.

    Apply 950 C..

    Respect
    Kim

    • Kim

      What I’m trying to express is that this all seems to be similar to Edison
      and his “results” approach. The ability to test different ratios and mixtures
      isotopes ect…. To do this you need easy, quick, economic method. To test
      100’s in 24 hours ect….

      The problem seems to be containment at this time.
      Why did they use Stainless Steel? Even I at my level
      of understanding would have known it would fail

      If the fuel/mixture is proper… and the containment will hold.
      The magic of 3 COP should unfold easily.

      Can Alumina be 3D printed ?

      Respect
      Kim

      • Bob Greenyer

        If there is one thing we have established for sure in the past near 2.5 years is that everyone that comes to LENR thinks they can do it better. Our organisation is set up to test the claims of others. We had most success to date when we stopped trying to better Celanis experiment and returned to replication.

        With Lugano – we can replicate the form, with Parkhamov we can better replicate the core (which was pretty similar to our inference anyhow). If we tried to do something different, we are basically starting again.

        An MFMP member is working on a rapid screening concept and we will report on that soon.

        We used Stainless steel – because we had the parts laying around and it has shown us valuable data.

        • Kim

          A good Reply.
          The Rapid Screening Process sounds great.
          I’m Just an Impatient Patient.
          Carry on Steady as she goes….

          Respect
          Kim

  • georgehants

    RyuMaster, then he will be very pleased to pass over what he learned in the second test.
    I certainly thank him for all the help he is giving.

  • georgehants

    stefenski, I would agree that “damm it” is about right.

  • Andreas Moraitis

    I wonder if the spins would flip back when the signal is interrupted. If so, this might be a way to synchronize the behaviour of the atoms.

    • Bob Greenyer

      Interesting point Andreas

    • Axil Axil

      Yes… In my theory of the magnetic causation of LENR, control of nuclear spin is a way to control the reaction. This is why I think that Nuclear Magnetic Resonance is a important tool in the detection and control of the LENR reaction.

  • Axil Axil

    There is good reason to believe that magnetism is the prime mover in LENR. Under this speculative paradigm, it is interesting to consider the options and consequences of this conjecture. In such a paradigm, any technology that is friendly to magnetism would be good for LENR, and conversely, a technology that undercuts the strength of magnetism is bad.

    The Pd/D wet technology is more unfriendly to magnetism than nickel because it makes magnetism more difficult to maintain. Firstly as a general technological principle, an isotope must have a nuclear spin of zero to enable the LENR reaction. There is much experimental evidence to support this conjecture. For an explanation see below. In this respect, palladium has a nuclear spin profile that is about 78% effective. 105Pd has a non-zero spin and is 22% of the isotopic contents of run of the mill palladium.

    On the other hand, Nickel is much more efficient in terms of supporting magnetism. 61Ni has a non-zero nuclear spin, but that isotope is only 1.14% of the isotopic content of Nickel.

    Palladium is paramagnetic and Nickel is ferromagnetic. So nickel is more desirable than palladium as a magnetic reaction catalyst.

    In more detail, this thinking is underpinned by a speculative LENR reaction rule that is interesting to explore. That rule is that the LENR reaction must occur among atomic ions that have zero nuclear spin.

    In explanation, Nuclear magnetic resonance (NMR) is a physical phenomenon in which nuclei in a magnetic field absorb and re-emit electromagnetic radiation. This energy is at a specific resonance frequency which depends on the strength of the magnetic field and the magnetic properties of the isotope of the atoms; in practical applications, the frequency is similar to old style VHF and UHF television broadcasts (60–1000 MHz). NMR allows the observation of specific quantum mechanical magnetic properties of the atomic nucleus.

    All isotopes that contain an odd number of protons and/or of neutrons have an intrinsic magnetic moment and angular momentum, in other words a nonzero spin, while all nuclides with even numbers of both have a total spin of zero. The most commonly studied NMR active nuclei are 1H and 13C, although nuclei from isotopes of many other elements (e.g. 2H, 6Li, 10B, 11B, 14N, 15N, 17O, 19F, 23Na, 29Si, 31P, 35Cl, 113Cd, 129Xe, 195Pt) have been studied by high-field NMR spectroscopy as well.

    It is now known that Ni61 does not participate in the LENR reaction. Ni61 is a NMR active isotope. When a magnetic field is applied to an NMR active isotope, the magnetic energy imparted to the nucleus is dissipated by induced nuclear vibrational energy which is radiated away as rf energy. The non-zero spin of the the nucleus shields the nucleus from the external magnetic field not allowing that field to penetrate into it. External magnetic fields catalyze changes in the protons and neutrons in the nucleus as well as enabling accelerated quantum mechanical tunneling. If this external magnetic field is shielded by NMR activity, LENR transmutation of the protons and neutrons in the nucleus is made more difficult.

    Therefore, during the course of an extended LENR reaction cycle, isotope depletion will tend to favor the enrichment and buildup of NMR active elements.

    Hydrogen with non-zero spin will not participate in the LENR reaction whereas cooper pairs of protons will. Expect LENR reactions centered on pairs of protons with zero spin.

    Also, as the LENR reaction matures and more NMR active isotopes accumulate, the LENR reactor will put out increasing levels or rf radiation derived from the nuclear vibrations of the NMR isotope.

    This NMR thinking also applies to the nature of the various isotopes of hydrogen.

    Molecular hydrogen occurs in two isomeric forms, one with its two proton spins aligned parallel (orthohydrogen), the other with its two proton spins aligned antiparallel (parahydrogen). At room temperature and thermal equilibrium, hydrogen consists of approximately 75% orthohydrogen and 25% parahydrogen.

    Orthohydrogen hydrogen has non zero spin, this is bad for Ni/H LENR because the non zero spin wastes magnetic energy by producing RF radiation. Parahydrogen hydrogen has zero spin. This is good for Ni/H LENR because this type of hydrogen is magnetically inactive.

    This is a way to increase parahydrogen hydrogen by using a noble metal catalyst.

    see

    Catalytic process for ortho-para hydrogen conversion

    http://www.google.com/patents/US3383176

    Could this metallic ruthenium and certain ruthenium alloys be Rossi’s secret sauce?

    The first step in the hydrogen doublet fusion process is the formation of one or more atoms of 2He.

    Helium-2 or 2He, also known as a diproton, is an extremely unstable isotope of helium that consists of two protons without any neutrons. According to theoretical calculations it would have been much more stable (although still beta decaying to deuterium) had the strong force been 2% greater. Its instability is due to spin-spin interactions in the nuclear force, and the Pauli exclusion principle, which forces the two protons to have anti-aligned spins and gives the diproton a negative binding energy.

    By the way, the ash produced by the LENR reaction will have a non-zero nuclear spin such as lithium, boron, and beryllium. This is due to the fact that the ash is at the end of the LENR reaction chain that terminates with an isotope featuring a non-zero nuclear spin.

    Furthermore, all the stable isotopes of copper have a non-zero nuclear spin. This may be way these isotopes are found in the ash assay of Rossi’s reactor.

    One last correlation remains.

    It seems that the popular wet LENR catalyst acts like a superconductor for protons where protons pair up into a cooper pair.

    See

    http://arxiv.org/pdf/0807.1386.pdf

    This work emphasizes that atoms in the crystal-field of KHCO3 are not individual particles possessing properties in their own right. They merge into macroscopic states and exhibit all features of quantum mechanics: non-locality, entanglement, spin-symmetry, superposition and interferences. There is every reason to suppose that similar quantum effects should occur in many hydrogen bonded crystals undergoing structural phase transitions.

    I understand spin-symmetry to mean a zero spin.

    This catalyst provides a proton dimer of zero spin to the wet LENR reaction. This is the reason why this catalyst enhances electrolytic LENR in water.

  • Ged

    Yep, leaked out as soon as the stainless steel got over 500 C and became hydrogen permeable. Lost the hydrogen pressure. Was looking like it was going to be interesting till that point. Not that surprising though, just annoying. Better methods are coming and we know how to test for a proper seal now.

  • bachcole

    I have no expectations one way or the other, so I can’t be disappointed. But I will dance when it happens.

    I think that a plane ticket to Russia might be in order now

    • Bob Greenyer

      We have offered him one the other way.

      • bachcole

        Yeah, but you forgot to make it a round trip ticket. (:->)

        Just kidding.

        Good for and on you.

        • Axil Axil

          A 1400C thermocouple probe cable is usually nickel based.

          • Eyedoc

            So are you saying that the cable itself (coated with fuel) is the plug ??

  • rats123

    Guys, surely it shouldn’t be rocket science to screw on some proper seals so the hydrogen doesn’t like. What did Parkhomov use?

    • RyuMaster Gorskov

      Properly molded concrete. It took him 3 days to prepare this, its not that easy. Still, I’m surprised that with all he community support, 2nd test of MFMP failed.

      • Mr. Moho

        I don’t think it was hard, it just takes time for that to cure at ambient temperature.

      • Bob Greenyer

        It was a test to see what happened to the LiAlH4 and what kinds of pressures would result in these scales of vessels. It was a success. There was no data that we could find for this and so it provided a unique contribution to collective understanding.

        We fully expected the steel to not hold the pressure, it is a proton conductor and as pressure and temperature rises H2 basically diffuses through it – it would never have got to 950ºC and held the seemingly required pressure. Above 950ºC in this system is where we calculate the onset of excess heat would occur ( according to Lugano and Parkhamov data).

        We demonstrated the unsuitability of thin steel for a high pressure high temperature reactor.

        • RyuMaster Gorskov

          I see, thank you, that explains.

        • rats123

          I don’t get it. Why are you trying to demonstrate the unsuitability of a particular material?! I thought the whole point of MFMP was to get LENR going.

          • Bob Greenyer

            We did not have the sealing agents in stock, but we did have some parts left over from the concentric calorimeter design. These were bolted together in a few hours to test the claims of Dr. Alexander Parkhamov regarding the pressure inside a vessel resulting from the breakdown of LiAlH4. in a few short hours we provided hitherto unavailable proof of his hypothesis about the order of magnitude of pressure in this type of cell.

            There were some community suggestions to use steel, whilst we knew this would be unsuitable for high temps, we could do a useful test that would help us and others also.

  • Mats002

    So what is your judge for internet and open information in general?

  • Bob Greenyer

    You’re joking right?

    like nobody makes money from selling cars based on the Internal combustion engine, or phones based on Android or computers based on linux.

    As Jed Rothwell said last week “I expect there to be patents in LENR for the next 1000 years”

    • J Storrs Hall

      The whole subject is more complex than most people realize. Turns out that even in highly competitive industries, there is a huge amount of knowledge sharing between firms. It also turns out that it takes 65% of the effort to copy an innovation than it does to develop it in the first place.

      (http://www.amazon.com/The-Economic-Laws-Scientific-Research/dp/0312173067)

      The best model for what the MFMP might accomplish is like the development of von Neumann’s computer at the IAS in the 50s. It put a huge amount of basic computer knowledge in the public domain, and yet spawned a half-century of major innovation AND competition.

      • jonjon

        You, at last, got it. A reply above yours is simply raw bird droppings – weak.
        The development of the atomic bomb maybe another similar example (nothing to do with LENR) that I can think of, but it is not a civilian product. The fundamental physics was first shared between scientific community conferences , but then the WWII and cold war.

  • Bob Greenyer

    You got it.

    But we did get some unique data that will help everyone.

    • rats123

      In what way?

      • Bob Greenyer

        Empirical evidence on breakdown of LiAlH4 in such a small reactor volume over time and pressure. Possible data on absorption of H into 2.2-2.6 um Nickel (seemingly supported by other independent research highlighted to us today via Dr. A. Parkhamov as reported on our FB and QH sites) and other evidence for very low pressures resulting that would significantly lower the boiling point of lithium. All good!

        • clovis ray

          Bob pay no attention to this troll, he is only interrupting, an intelligent conversation, we seek the truth,

        • bachcole

          Bob, your job is to make LENR+ happen. Our job is to answer these skeptopathic trolls. Don’t waste OUR valuable time with you trying to deal with skeptopaths. It is a skill acquired with great practice over a long period of time (20 years). We respect what you are doing. Please you respect what we are doing. (:->)

          • Bob Greenyer

            Thanks guys!

  • Bob Greenyer

    Agreed, I actually waved my finger over that area – it would provide a much better seal and be under shear not just tension forces, however MolyMag brazing has a bond strength of up to 22,000psi

  • Preston Brown

    It seems like a pretty interesting engineering problem.

    So, the hydrogen gas is released the first time the cell is heated and the cell must hold it under pressure for the life of the cell. The loss of even a tiny amount of gas would change the operating pressure a lot over time. Rossi must of solved the problem, but how hard is it to hold it tight for 6 months or a year? It wouldn’t be nice to need to replace the cells often.

    Plus getting the operating pressure just right at 950C means loading exactly the right amount of hydrogen to begin with. That pressure seems likely to be a pretty critical parameter, right? Do you think there is just some minimum threshold to trigger the effect, or will the cell performance vary widely with pressure?

    Nice work so far….

    • Axil Axil

      In my opinion, Rossi used graphite powder that was included in the fuel to seal the surface of the alumina core tube from hydrogen leakage. Graphite is a perfect gas barrier.

      • psi2u2

        Axil, I’m a little confused. Above you suggested that the sealant was composed of “aluminum(22), lithium(46), and nickel(13),” which per your post will expand on heating to fully seal the gap. Here you are suggesting graphite. I’m probably misunderstanding, as I am a humanities dude trying to follow the basic science here. Are you talking about two different seals? Can you please help me to understand what looks like a contradiction?

        And by the way, I really appreciate your lucid, extremely informative posts.

        • Axil Axil

          The Rossi fuel mix is comprised of aluminum(22), lithium(46), and nickel(13) and also carbon. This was in the TPR2 report. Fuel could seal the Rossi thermocouple plug through thermal expansion of the fuel when the fuel coats the nickel thermocouple probe,

          It is also possible that just the thermal expansion of the nickel thermocouple probe could be used to seal the hole.

          Regarding Carbon

          In the nuclear industry, there is a reactor type called the pebble bed reactor. That reactor uses a uranium and plutonium nuclear fuel enclosed in a graphite and Silicon carbide coating called TRISO fuel.

          http://www.intechopen.com/books/metal-ceramic-and-polymeric-composites-for-various-uses/composite-materials-under-extreme-radiation-and-temperature-environments-of-the-next-generation-nucl

          That pebble bed fuel has been tested to keep all the products of fission sequestered for years at a 100% reliability rate.

          The same type of barrier element sequestering system could be used to keep the Hot Cat type reactor element tight. The down side is that carbon has been shown to be a poison to LENR in some LENR reactors.

          Care in the design of the TRISO LENR reactor who be required.

          From the analysis of the fuel mix in the Rossi reactor, carbon was found in a high concentration. I take this as an indicator that carbon is being used in the Hot Cat as a hydrogen barrier material.

          I would put the graphite and SIC element barrier on the outermost surface of the Hot Cat in my own reactor design.

    • Obvious

      Rossi, in an interview I think, once said that the H was recaptured on cooling. Control may be acquired possibly by pumping the tipping point of a boil-off/capture reaction of a custom H carrier, based on LAH.

  • Axil Axil

    An excerpt from the Lugano report:

    “A thermocouple probe, inserted into one of the caps, allows the control system to manage power supply to the resistors by measuring the internal temperature of the reactor. The hole for the thermocouple probe is also the only access point for the fuel charge. The thermocouple probe cable is inserted in an alumina cement cylinder, which acts as a bushing and perfectly fits the hole, about 4 mm in diameter. When charging the reactor, the bushing is pulled out, and the charge is inserted. After the thermocouple probe has been lodged back in place, the bushing is sealed and secured with alumina cement. To extract the charge, pliers are used to open the seal.”
    Why is this sealing process successful?

    The alumina to metal sealing technique that Rossi uses is both elegant and simple. Rossi’s alumina core tube has a hole at its end that is just a little bit wider than the metal plug used to fill it. After Rossi fills the alumina tube with fuel, there is a slight space (say ten thousandth of a inch)between the metal plug and the hole in the alumina body(5.4). The space will be coated with fuel which includes aluminum(22), lithium(46), and nickel(13).

    The numbers in parentheses are the thermal coefficients of expansion of of the various materials in the alumina and the fuel found in this table as follows”

    http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/linear-expansion-coefficients-d_95.html

    A hole sealing process will occur to thermally bond the metal plug to the hole in the alumina when heated as follows:

    As the alumina heats up, the fuel residue coating will form a tight fitting metalized gasket between the metal plug and alumina hole. The fuel will liquefy and form a aluminum nickel lithium alloy and fill the micro-cracks on the surface of the hole and the metal plug. The alumina will expand slightly to accommodate the expansion of the metal plug. The metal plug will be pressure welded into the hole because of the differences in the thermal coefficients of expansion between the various metals and the alumina to form a leak proof seal that will stand up to very high gas pressure,

    • JDM

      “To extract the charge, pliers are used to open the seal.”
      Why did they need a saw?

      • Axil Axil

        The strength of the seal is a function of the temperature of the alumina. A very hot core tube produces a very strong seal. A cold tube produces a weaker seal. But in a cold tube there is no gas pressure. Rossi is smart, isn’t he.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      I’m not sure if I understood the coating part. I can understand that the metal plug expands more than the alumina tube surrounding it and therefore the gap between them can be tightly closed, if the gap is sufficiently small. But isn’t it enough?

      • Axil Axil

        A proton is very small and at 100 bar protons are very energetic. No possible path can exist between the inside of the core and the outside if high pressure is to be maintained inside the core. A perfect seal is required, and it must be thick to avoid proton tunneling.

    • Robert Ellefson

      Alumina tubing from Coorstek (AD-998) has an expansion coefficient of 8.3.
      It does have numbers listed for elastic modulus and tensile strength, but it is still a ceramic, and I would expect yield failures of the tubing to be an issue with incompatible COE materials used as plugs, without careful engineering applied to counter this. This is why HUG is waiting on a special glass sealant with compatible COE to be shipped from Germany. I’m looking forward to seeing the results, although the simplicity of the Lugano device’s sealing still beckons me to wonder exactly how they accomplished it.

      • Axil Axil

        My guess…trial and error…keep at it until it works.

        • Omega Z

          Well as I’ve proposed before, Those people working along side of Rossi are possibly personnel supplied by a consortium who are already well versed in the gas/electric fields. Possibly Manufacturers having decades of knowledge of Alumina ceramics & Inconel wire Etc & all their properties.

          It’s worth noting that there are a dozen entities involved with Industrial Heat & we only know 2 of them. Of the other 10, we don’t know if they are Individuals, Corporations or a mix there of.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Most of any success that could be had in the LENR field would be based on the results of research long since past. Many scientists have sacrificed huge tranches of their life to studying this field and some have passed away before seeing it realised – great contributors such as Fleischmann, Mallove, Bockris and Focardi never got to see their work help humanity and many individual players that likely know pieces of the puzzle are at risk of the same fate. We need action.

    Much of recent success is about first believing the claims of previous researchers and then bringing it all together, that is why many believe it to be extremely hard to secure IP in this space at all. Many times, when the MFMP think someone has done something new, we find out that it had already been published in a paper in the past – the most recent example was a paper from ICCF-13 showing lithium 6 enrichment from an electrolysis experiment using lithium electrolyte and a nickel electrode (Lithium + Nickel + Hydrogen).

    People should focus on what novelty they add to the space rather than try to patent the whole thing. Francesco Celani has done such a thing, he is not claiming to have invented Ni+H, he is claiming to have invented a wire processing approach that can show the effect.

    The MFMP is about recognising the true worth of every contributor. In the end, we are a crowd and participant funded, volunteer research organisation and no amount of IP can prevent research. That we don’t hold the results of our work behind a paywall means that the crowd and interested scientists can help accelerate our endeavour and receive due credit for their contribution.

    Naturally, as we publish as we go – any new insight we generate can be built on by third parties and if they add novelty which is not obvious and we don’t see it publicly first or independently before they patent it, then they have every right to try to secure IP on it. In that way, we hope to act as a catalyst to get this show on the road.

    • Bob Greenyer

      We can ask.

    • psi2u2

      Bob, as has already been said but deserves repeating, you guys just keep right on doing what you are doing. Your integrity in honoring the long history before you speaks for itself, as does the openness and scientific seriousness with which you approach the task of replication.

    • Kevin O

      Bob:

      As an noted experimentalist in this field, how many times do you reckon that the Anomalous Heat Effect has been replicated? Skeptopaths won’t even consider it to have been replicated more than a dozen times.

      http://www.mail-archive.com/vortex-l%40eskimo.com/msg91647.html

      • Bob Greenyer

        As I have said before, the biggest problem we have seen in LENR research is that every new participant feels they can do it better and are then, by default, not replicating. We suffered the same affliction when trying to work with Celani, the first thing we did is try to build a cell with fused quartz (to enable higher temperatures) instead of Borosilicate glass, it did not work. Only after going back and trying to more precisely replicate what Celani did, both apparatus and protocol, did we see something. Whilst interesting – those results are never going to change the world.

        We are aware that Jean-Paul Biberian collaborated on a successful P&F replication.

        We are aware that a group replicated Piantelli, a paper was published, peer reviewed and placed into a recognised physics journal in 1998 – this is probably why Piantelli has a patent.

        We are aware the Technova replicated Mitsubishi and that eventually led to the Mitsubishi patent.

        Many people have done variation of Mizuno wet cells (ourselves included in collaboration with Jean-Paul Biberian) are they replications or analogues?

        Even Parkhamov has not performed a replication, his reactor and experiment are very different to Lugano in nearly every possible way – even the “fuel” missed the iron and was only based on an inference.

        The best person to give you a summary is Jed Rothwell, we are rookies in aggregating this information compared to him. We did apply to get a grant last year to do a big data analysis of all the available information in order to be able to definitively answer these questions in the future, but we were unsuccessful. It is a constant source of frustration that every time we here that someone has discovered something new, we find that it had already been published in the past – we would like everyone to be easily able to mine this data.

        That is the primary goal of the MFMP to address this problem – by first conducting an experiment that shows incontrovertible excess heat and then facilitating wide scale exact replication.

  • artefact

    @MFMP:
    Sanjeev posted this link in the Always open thread. It might be of interest for you.
    Another replication approach: (see at the end)
    http://atom-ecology.russgeorge.net/2014/12/30/second-hot-cat-begins-howl/

    • artefact

      .. but it is from Dez. 30 2014. Don’t know if it is allready known.

      • Sanjeev

        Its in replication thread actually. I don’t think this attempt was discussed here on ECW. He has Chinese buddies btw. Should be interesting if he publishes everything.

  • Bob Greenyer

    Humanity, and the planet cannot readily benefit from locked away information or information that is carried to the grave.

  • I agree with the community part, not so sure about the ism.

  • Simply pure science.

  • Bob Greenyer

    DB2Day Autopsy, data and analysis and DB2Day inspire simplified core.

    []=Project Dog Bone=[]

    https://www.facebook.com/MartinFleischmannMemorialProject

    • Axil Axil

      From the analysis of the DB2Day Autopsy, loading hydrogen into the Dog Bone is a complicated an involved process. It seems to me, if too much heat is applied at initial start up, hydrogen pressure may clime too high too fast when enough Lithium aluminum hydride is provided to ensure that when after all the preheating is done, enough hydrogen remains free from the absorption by the reactor structure to optimize the LENR reaction in steady state operation.

      When the Dog Bone is subsequently restarted, the hydrogen loading profile will most probably be changed since some hydrogen will have been retained in the nickel powder and the structural material be it either stainless steel or alumina.

      I can see why Rossi needs to be on site and actively managing the heat up of the Dog Bone. The Dog Bone is not something that one can initally startup or turn off and on easily or automatically. This is BAD.

      • clovis ray

        hi, Axil,
        Sounds kinda like a nuclear reaction, ah

    • Axil Axil

      I suggest that the reactor core tube be coated with Yttria-stabilized zirconia coated either on its inside or its outside of the tube as experimentation requires. This provides thermal cycling resistance and a gas barrier. If zirconia is used to coat the outside, a thin layer of vapor deposited carbon should be applied to the Zirconia to increase the gas barrier so that the carbon does not poison the LENR reaction.

      An alternative process is to coat the outside of the core tube with silicon carbide. Then coat the outside of the SiC with a thin coat of carbon for a gas barrier. No thermal cracking should occur in either alterative because of the similarity of the thermal coefficients of expansions in the suggested materials.

      This steps should make the core table hydrogen tight and make the MFMP implementation a better product vs. the Rossi reactor.