Rossi: Domestic E-Cats Still a Priority for Industrial Heat

When Industrial Heat bought Rossi’s technology it seemed that the future for E-Cat technology would be in the industrial arena. Before the IH era, Andrea Rossi had talked enthusiastically about the mass creation of domestic E-Cats that could be used for home heating and, in time, electricity generation. He said the key for this to become a reality would be safety certification.

Then Rossi reported that safety certification would not be as quick as he had once hoped. He said that certifiers would need thousands of hours of data from operating E-Cats to check its performance, and that data was not available to them. So the focus shifted to industrial E-Cat plants, and that is where we are now, with Rossi saying he is now running his first 1 MW plant in an extended on-site industrial test, before revealing it to the public.

However, recent comments by Rossi on the Journal of Nuclear Physics suggest that plans for the domestic E-Cat have not been placed on hold. Here’s a recent comment by him on the topic.

Stefano:
Andrea Rossi
January 5th, 2015 at 2:48 PM
Stefano:
You asked, in Italian, when the domestic E-Cat will go in the market.
Surely it will go in the market. The “when” depends on a factor that does not depend on us, which is the safety certification. We are working strong on it, as well as on the technology of the same, very well developed. Once obtained the certification we will unleash all the strategy to produce the E-Cats in economy scale, to make them competitive beyond any attempt of reverse engineering.
Warm Regards,
A.R.

According to Rossi in other comments he has made recently, is the production of these units in the millions, and producing them at such low prices that it would discourage competitors from bothering to reverse engineer them and try to sell them:

“When our domestic small E-Cats will hit the market we will not have anymore a reverse engineering problem, as I already explained, because the economy scale will allow prices that will make competition not convenient. We are working on it.”

Rossi has said that the technology behind the small E-Cats is well developed and basically ready to go. Certification has not been obtained however, and still not guaranteed.

  • Guru

    I not trust Rossi with his claims about priority for Home E-Cats.
    And it is irrelevant, because HephaHeat mass products will také this sector by storm.
    Game over for Rossi

    • giovanniontheweb

      Hi Guru, I have the impression you are about to confuse horse and char

      • little al

        IMHO with 100 + e-cats in the industrial plant, it should not take that long to accumulate 1000 hours of safety data

  • Guru

    I not trust Rossi with his claims about priority for Home E-Cats.
    And it is irrelevant, because HephaHeat mass products will také this sector by storm.
    Game over for Rossi

    • William D Fleming

      It sounds to me like Hephaheat has found a way to heat water efficiently using electricity, but I doubt it will ever be a match for cold fusion. I look for cold fusion to eventually require no input energy except for start-up. Even at only COP 3 there is three times as much energy output as input, while with Hephaheat there is less energy output than input, unless there’s something I don’t know about it.

    • giovanniontheweb

      Hi Guru, I have the impression you are about to confuse horse and char

    • Heraklit

      Very nice consept!

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        πάντα ῥεῖ !

    • BroKeeper

      Amazing E-Cat evolutionary advancement since just over a year ago. What are we looking at in just a few years from now? Exciting front row seats.

    • Freethinker

      Alain,

      Very smart images. Kudos to that guy, Daniel Badoual, for the very clear visualization of a home E-Cat.

    • Heraklit

      Very nice consept!

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        πάντα ῥεῖ !

    • Brokeeper

      Amazing E-Cat evolutionary advancement since just over a year ago. What are we looking at in just a few years from now? Exciting front row seats.

    • Freethinker

      Alain,

      Very smart images. Kudos to that guy, Daniel Badoual, for the very clear visualization of a home E-Cat.

  • EEStorFanFibb

    By Rossi’s own admission his technology WILL be reverse engineered. If Parkhomov can do something like it already based on a report, then ANYONE AND EVERYONE will be able to reverse engineer an ecat once they are on the market and can be dissected/examined. Meanwhile legal/patent IP protection doesn’t look likely either.

    Consequently, for IH, the strategy for maintaining a dominant share of the LENR market, seems to be to flood the world in a huge hurry once they are finally done prepping and getting safety certification established. Seems unlikely that this would have a minimal effect on energy markets as Rossi has claimed in the distant past.

    Rather, in order for IH to maintain a dominant position as a LENR energy market leader they will ramp up production and sales in a big, big way. Others will be forced to do the same as best they can if they want even a small piece of the market. All together, I think we are looking at a very sizable disruption to the global energy markets.

    I look forward to watching the chaos and carnage as the HUGE fortunes are won and lost in short order. Maybe as early as this year.

    • Gerard McEk

      I agree with what you are saying. Additionally, if IH starts automatic production in China, then you can expect low production cost and they will be very competitive.
      I am sure IH needs a colossal R&D to keep their initial advantage, also theoretically. Once science finds out how LENR/CF works, the COP will rise and IH’s advantage will diminish unless they can patent their E-cat.

  • I think they will be manufactured in China from the very start.

  • By Rossi’s own admission his technology WILL be reverse engineered. If Parkhomov can do something like it already based on a report, then ANYONE AND EVERYONE will be able to reverse engineer an ecat once they are on the market and can be dissected/examined. Meanwhile legal/patent IP protection doesn’t look likely either.

    Consequently, for IH, the strategy for maintaining a dominant share of the LENR market, seems to be to flood the world in a huge hurry once they are finally done prepping and getting safety certification established. Seems unlikely that this would have a minimal effect on energy markets as Rossi has claimed in the distant past.

    Rather, in order for IH to maintain a dominant position as a LENR energy market leader they will ramp up production and sales in a big, big way. Others will be forced to do the same as best they can if they want even a small piece of the market. All together, I think we are looking at a very sizable disruption to the global energy markets.

    I look forward to watching the chaos and carnage as the HUGE fortunes are won and lost in short order. Maybe as early as this year.

    • Gerard McEk

      I agree with what you are saying. Additionally, if IH starts automatic production in China, then you can expect low production cost and they will be very competitive.
      I am sure IH needs a colossal R&D to keep their initial advantage, also theoretically. Once science finds out how LENR/CF works, the COP will rise and IH’s advantage will diminish unless they can patent their E-cat.

  • I think they will be manufactured in China from the very start.

    • TomR

      It is hard to blame Rossi when he is getting stonewalled on the safety certification. He has been jerked around and abused by TPTB too many times, he can not be blamed for taking the quickest route to achieve the goals he wants.

  • sc1ttl

    ceft refers to UL, ISO, TUV, and govt entities. ASHRAE etc. takes years. THATS Y ITS IMERATIVEE to remove the word nuclear. if the IEA and NRC get ivolved it will take DECADES.!!!!

    • Mike

      In Europe it will be a notified body which makes all tests independently, for example DVGW and Kiwa. The manufacturer sends the appliance for tests and then waits for the results. Either these notified bodies and test labs develop specific test plans for all kind of security checks or they use some international standard, for example EN xxx. If you test a gas stove for CE marking there are a lot of tests att full and reduced power, emission limits etc. If the manufacturer use an own lab for the tests I believe the lab has to fulfil a lot of requirements regarding measurement accuracy etc.

  • sc1ttl

    ceft refers to UL, ISO, TUV, and govt entities. ASHRAE etc. takes years. THATS Y ITS IMERATIVEE to remove the word nuclear. if the IEA and NRC get ivolved it will take DECADES.!!!!

    • Mike

      In Europe it will be a notified body which makes all tests independently, for example DVGW and Kiwa. The manufacturer sends the appliance for tests and then waits for the results. Either these notified bodies and test labs develop specific test plans for all kind of security checks or they use some international standard, for example EN xxx. If you test a gas stove for CE marking there are a lot of tests att full and reduced power, emission limits etc. If the manufacturer use an own lab for the tests I believe the lab has to fulfil a lot of requirements regarding measurement accuracy etc.

  • ronzonni

    I wonder who the certifiers are and why Dr. Rossi doesn’t name them. A bit of pressure on them to hurry would not hurt anything.

  • ronzonni

    I wonder who the certifiers are and why Dr. Rossi doesn’t name them. A bit of pressure on them to hurry would not hurt anything.

  • Matt

    I am tired of hearing that kind of blabla. Wake me up when he is delivering something.

    • bachcole

      I wonder if it is possible to give an up-click and a down-click. (:->)

    • I understand your frustration with the long wait.

      From the time I first heard about the prospect of high definition television, I had to wait about 10 long years before I could actually buy one. So 10 years from Rossi’s first public demonstration in Bologna Italy in 2011 would be the year 2021. I suspect LENR will be sold in stores near you long before then, with a number of companies offering products.

    • giovanniontheweb

      Hi Matt, when your heat pump unit will stop making noise you will wake-up naturally

  • georgehants

    Peter, Fortyniner, 49nr. where are you, hope all is well.
    As my main concern is Cold Fusion helping those in need and not making the rich and powerful more rich and powerful, good to hear Mr. Rossi is still trying to break through the establishment attempts to block small units.

    • fortyniner

      Hi George. Still around thanks. The storm just after Christmas dropped a large tree on our telephone line (and on my summer roadster – sob) and I’m still waiting for the line
      to be repaired after 11 days! Meanwhile I’m struggling with a phone with a tiny screen I can just make out, and microscopic virtual ‘keys’ way too small for my fingers. Back online ‘properly’ soon I hope. – Peter

      • Frank Acland

        Good to hear from you, Peter — hope things get back to normal for you soon!

      • georgehants

        Peter welcome, sorry to hear of your problems but just think of the pleasure you will have looking back over all my comments. Ha.
        Happy New Year etc.

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        Welcome back ‘home’.

  • bachcole

    Frank: “Journal of Nuclear Physics suggest that plans the domestic E-Cat” should read “Journal of Nuclear Physics suggest that plans for the domestic E-Cat”

  • RyuMaster Gorskov

    According to russian underground lenr researchers I have talked with, the problem with e-cat reactor is that it needs to be clustered i.e. made of many little e-cat blocks to produce lots of energy due to the different kind of problems with elements Rossi uses. Probably Rossi gave up on creating little reactor, and moved on creating big one, where many problems (like, nickel melding at high temperature, which causes reaction to fail) can be avoiding by clustering. Now, when we know what kind of ‘magic’ is happening inside Rossi reactor, it is easy to follow e-cat evolution. So, I’m sure we will not see home e-cat made by Rossi, it is plainly more easier way to build larger plant.

    • Pekka Janhunen

      Not sure if I understand… do you say that a large plant is more forgiving because even if few reactors melt the plant still continues to run because of redundancy?

      • James Andrew Rovnak

        RyuMaster, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mu_iwdjf1gI Thinking of internal process has progressed some from this song of 2011, but the E-Cat will be a cheap home heating solution, believe me! Biggest problem will be UL certification as it is also current issue being dealt with?

  • giovanniontheweb

    COP around 4 direct competitors are heat pumps, a mature and very dynamic market supported by heavy industrial structures with almost no safety concerns a part fluids that have been ruled recently. What it is interesting with the e-cat to my view is that the heat pump market, even for small units, will find its interest in it.

    • Ophelia Rump

      A heat pump is no competition at all. A heat pump does not generate heat.
      Wells and loops to provide that heat cost tens of thousand of dollars.

      • giovanniontheweb

        actually it is, in either cases I inject 1 KW to obtain 4 KW spending Xtot$ per year , that is called market

      • Chris, Italy

        Of course not but the heat they “don’t generate” is absolutely free. The cost of collecting it depends on the external environment and on how cleverly the engineering is done; if it is too expensive then I would combine the heat pump with thermal solar instead.

        • Ophelia Rump

          Not free when you include the cost of powering electric pump for the fluid movement.

          • Chris, Italy

            Obviously I didn’t mean that; I meant what the heat pump adds to it.

          • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

            Living in a well insulated (properly oriented) home, with passive solar, solar thermal and air source heat pump. Electricity bill about £300 per year, LED lighting included, for heating and domestic use. It CAN be done.

  • Jimr

    I hate to be a spoil sport but I am extremely leery of statements made by Rossi. I do take seriously any statements made by his testers or associates. Rossi has and always will exagerate.

    • Keet Claw C

      I know someone close to me that acted in the same manor as Rossi. He was a pure genius. He spoke like that because that’s how he felt about the future outlook of whatever he was working on. He takes things as fact/done deal before the conclusion has been drawn. Forgetting about obstacles that get thrown in front of us regularly. Safety certificates at this point but who knows what’s next..

      Not much hopefully

  • roseland67

    What does that mean, exactly,
    “Domestic Ecat is still a priority for IH”?
    The ECAT, if it works as stated,
    is a global necessity, not a domestic priority.
    mercy

  • LilyLover

    With 1000s of hours of safety data, AND ultrafast Chinese authorities certifying E-Cat; the UL/CE won’t want to appear as oilin-bankers’ lapdogs since – people – salute – rising-star. So, Rossi will indirectly coerce UL/CE using their own lethargic inertia much like what the ”

    Phaeton Rudegar” did to Stephen Pompus, into acting nimbly certifying E-Cat.
    It will happen. Soon. Have no doubt.
    Home E-Cat in 2015.
    After that, watch how quickly wikiPedagogia changes the sequence of their adjectives.

  • LilyLover

    “Domestic Ecat is still a priority for IH”?
    >>
    It means –
    that had always been an important priority – sidetracked for Hot-Cat.
    Now that the Hot-Cat is well behaving, he’s gonna tame the domestic Cat.
    “The ECAT is a global necessity, not a domestic priority. mercy”
    >>
    BTW it is a domestic priority all over the Globe.
    Domestic does not mean US-only.
    Domestic as in domesticated cats, E-Cat is a Global-domestic priority.
    He is merciful!! 🙂
    🙂

  • LilyLover

    “Domestic Ecat is still a priority for IH”?
    >>
    It means –
    that had always been an important priority – sidetracked for Hot-Cat.
    Now that the Hot-Cat is well behaving, he’s gonna tame the domestic Cat.
    “The ECAT is a global necessity, not a domestic priority. mercy”
    >>
    BTW it is a domestic priority all over the Globe.
    Domestic does not mean US-only.
    Domestic as in domesticated cats, E-Cat is a Global-domestic priority.
    He is merciful!! 🙂
    🙂

  • Sandy

    Industrial Heat might be planning to produce domestic E-Cats in a plant that is powered by industrial E-Cats, and it might decline to sell industrial E-Cats to people who want use industrial E-Cats to operate a factory that produces domestic E-Cats. Industrial Heat could thereby make it very difficult for other companies to produce domestic E-Cats at a competitive price.

    • Chris

      Wow – THIS would be some serious strategy. I haven’t heard anyone mention this yet. What a way to put a nail in the coffin of the competition…

  • blanco69

    ” The ‘when’ does not depend on us…” This suggests that there are domestic ecats already around which are being ‘held back’ by certifiers whilst they gather their prudent safety information. The reality is that there are no ‘certifiers’ currently being presented with domestic ecat data for them to reject. So in that respect, the “when” very much depends on Rossi and IH. The mass production theory about “dont release until they’re so cheap it’s not worth it” is also convenient in the sense that it adds at least another year until we see a domestic ecat in the real world.

  • blanco69

    ” The ‘when’ does not depend on us…” This suggests that there are domestic ecats already around which are being ‘held back’ by certifiers whilst they gather their prudent safety information. The reality is that there are no ‘certifiers’ currently being presented with domestic ecat data for them to reject. So in that respect, the “when” very much depends on Rossi and IH. The mass production theory about “dont release until they’re so cheap it’s not worth it” is also convenient in the sense that it adds at least another year until we see a domestic ecat in the real world.

    • giovanniontheweb

      I find the actual IH strategy quite coherent, private unit accident may kill the investment while industrial accidents are typically about quality issue and make the product grow. It make sense starting where procedures rule the events

      • we want LENR Fusione Fredda

        Funny how the “housewife of Voghera” (A. Rossi) is such a great safety concern. Chernobyl and Fukushima were not, before the “issues”…
        I agree, however: one accident and the whole potential might be demonized.

  • little al

    IMHO with 100 + e-cats in the industrial plant, it should not take that long to accumulate 1000 hours of safety data

  • Asterix

    Here’s where Rossi can shine:

    http://www.pddnet.com/news/2015/01/doe-announces-125m-open-solicitation-new-energy-tech

    1/8 of a gigabuck from the USG just waiting for new, disruptive energy.

  • jousterusa

    Picture the old, skinny, grey-haired fella in his flannel long johns sitting at his kitchen table in upstate New York late this January evening, with the winds howling and the wind chill somewhere below -15, wondering where money for his heating oil will come from in February if this weather keeps up, and drumming his fingers on the tabletop as he reads about plans to bring the E-Cat into American homes at an affordable price. Thrum, thrum, thrum, ta-dum. He has a long, cold wait ahead, as do all of the shivering people in this world.

  • jousterusa

    Picture the old, skinny, grey-haired fella in his flannel long johns sitting at his kitchen table in upstate New York late this January evening, with the winds howling and the wind chill somewhere below -15, wondering where money for his heating oil will come from in February if this weather keeps up, and drumming his fingers on the tabletop as he reads about plans to bring the E-Cat into American homes at an affordable price. Thrum, thrum, thrum, ta-dum. He has a long, cold wait ahead, as do all of the shivering people in this world.

  • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

    If Rossi had small reactors with any reasonable level of reliability, he could have sold them as investigational devices for industrial testing, immediately. He doesn’t want to do that, obviously. It is not difficult to understand possible reasons to wait.

    1. They aren’t reliable and he doesn’t want to let us know that. I’m reminded of Pons and Fleischmann in 1989. They were asked to submit an active cathode for helium testing. They agreed, but apparently submitted a cathode with very low heat (a hundredth of what they had reported originally) and therefore very low helium (and the helium found was about 1/18 of what later work has found could be expected — i.e., their heat was close to the noise and may have been overstated.). Why? They never explained, but it is pretty obvious. For a time, they could not replicate their own experiment, and they did not want to admit that. It would look bad. Instead of looking a *little bad* from being honest, they ended up looking like fools or con artists. Lesson?

    2. If investigational devices are available, competition can get moving much more quickly. Unless he is ready to move, waiting inhibits competition. It also postpones the day when LENR technology is available, but Rossi does not care about that. He is not obligated to care.

    3. He has nothing and the whole thing is a con. However, I find that unlikely. Just not impossible.

    We need to keep in mind that Rossi promised to deliver a 1 MW plant before the end of 2011. Now, inventors and entrepreneurs often overpromise. Part of it can be an enthusiasm that assumes that unsolved problems can be solved, “any day now.”

  • Abd Ul-Rahman Lomax

    If Rossi had small reactors with any reasonable level of reliability, he could have sold them as investigational devices for industrial testing, immediately. He doesn’t want to do that, obviously. It is not difficult to understand possible reasons to wait.

    1. They aren’t reliable and he doesn’t want to let us know that. I’m reminded of Pons and Fleischmann in 1989. They were asked to submit an active cathode for helium testing. They agreed, but apparently submitted a cathode with very low heat (a hundredth of what they had reported originally) and therefore very low helium (and the helium found was about 1/18 of what later work has found could be expected — i.e., their heat was close to the noise and may have been overstated.). Why? They never explained, but it is pretty obvious. For a time, they could not replicate their own experiment, and they did not want to admit that. It would look bad. Instead of looking a *little bad* from being honest, they ended up looking like fools or con artists. Lesson?

    2. If investigational devices are available, competition can get moving much more quickly. Unless he is ready to move, waiting inhibits competition. It also postpones the day when LENR technology is available, but Rossi does not care about that. He is not obligated to care.

    3. He has nothing and the whole thing is a con. However, I find that unlikely. Just not impossible.

    We need to keep in mind that Rossi promised to deliver a 1 MW plant before the end of 2011. Now, inventors and entrepreneurs often overpromise. Part of it can be an enthusiasm that assumes that unsolved problems can be solved, “any day now.”

    • Omega Z

      Abd

      I believe there is soft evidence that a 1Mw plant was sold/delivered, however shortly after, Rossi had the break that allowed the development of the Hot-cat & the additional 11 optional sales never took place. This 1 sale being of an exploratory Military project, It is highly probable that we will never know for certain. At least, Not in our lifetime. Maybe 50/75 years from now, it will be revealed in a documentary.

      Of your 3 possibilities, I Find #2 the most probable with 3 caveats.
      #1, Rossi does care & he knows the market will spread the technology far & wide faster then any other method.
      #2, Rossi is still overcoming Issues with the Pilot plant. Tho control is more complex, many of these issues would also have effected the home units. So in effect, it isn’t quite ready for market.
      #3, The industrial path is necessary to obtain the safety data for UL certification. Just 10 of these 1Mw plants can provide data on several 1000 individual reactors & several million operational hours in a single year. Unless some major safety issue pops up, UL certification is mostly a given. Note, I doubt a 1400’C hot cat will ever be approved for single residential setting Tho Possible in a large complex with a certified technician present.

  • Dave A

    I can’t but think that Rossi may win a Nobel for physics, but not economics. Even if IH can build these machines super cheaply, then competitors will always attempt to ‘reverse engineer’ them so as to leverage some unique competitive advantage; have them smaller, bigger, more efficient, more powerful, mobile, lighter, marine grade, avionics grade, automotive grade, military grade, domestic, low profile, locally supported, disposable, durable or to really corner the market; black. Price may be the least concern of the market; especially when considering the alternative is often so expensive.

    This is where patents come in.

    For IH’s sake, they had better get them and get the quickly.

    Its the difference in being worth either $1 trillion or $1.

  • Omega Z

    Abd

    I believe there is soft evidence that a 1Mw plant was sold/delivered, however shortly after, Rossi had the break that allowed the development of the Hot-cat & the additional 11 optional sales never took place. This 1 sale being of an exploratory Military project, It is highly probable that we will never know for certain. At least, Not in our lifetime. Maybe 50/75 years from now, it will be revealed in a documentary.

    Of your 3 possibilities, I Find #2 the most probable with 3 caveats.
    #1, Rossi does care & he knows the market will spread the technology far & wide faster then any other method.
    #2, Rossi is still overcoming Issues with the Pilot plant. Tho control is more complex, many of these issues would also have effected the home units. So in effect, it isn’t quite ready for market.
    #3, The industrial path is necessary to obtain the safety data for UL certification. Just 10 of these 1Mw plants can provide data on several 1000 individual reactors & several million operational hours in a single year. Unless some major safety issue pops up, UL certification is mostly a given. Note, I doubt a 1400’C hot cat will ever be approved for single residential setting Tho Possible in a large complex with a certified technician present.

  • Chris

    Wow – THIS would be some serious strategy. I haven’t heard anyone mention this yet. What a way to put a nail in the coffin of the competition…